/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-02-27 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Wed Feb 27 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] * Parts: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  4. # [00:07] * Joins: jwalden (n=waldo@STRATTON-TWO-EIGHTY-SEVEN.MIT.EDU)
  5. # [00:15] * aroben|meeting is now known as aroben
  6. # [00:28] * Quits: jwalden (n=waldo@STRATTON-TWO-EIGHTY-SEVEN.MIT.EDU) (Remote closed the connection)
  7. # [00:28] * Quits: wakaba (n=w@77.137.148.210.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  8. # [00:29] * Joins: wakaba (n=w@77.137.148.210.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  9. # [00:59] * Joins: csarven (n=nevrasc@bas16-montreal02-1279648809.dsl.bell.ca)
  10. # [01:02] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@17.255.111.222)
  11. # [01:02] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  12. # [01:06] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@guest-228.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  13. # [01:06] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@guest-228.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  14. # [01:07] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.255.99.33)
  15. # [01:12] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no) ("Leaving")
  16. # [01:13] * Quits: tndH (i=Rob@adsl-83-100-138-77.karoo.KCOM.COM) ("ChatZilla 0.9.81-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508]")
  17. # [01:14] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no)
  18. # [01:15] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.180) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  19. # [01:17] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  20. # [01:23] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@nat/apple/x-5b1ccb77073d5c7e) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  21. # [01:24] * Quits: kingryan (n=ryan@dsl092-219-050.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  22. # [01:24] <Hixie> ok
  23. # [01:24] <Hixie> <blockquote> is clearly not a sectioning element
  24. # [01:26] <Hixie> and outlines will not include headers in tables, figures, blockquotes, or datagrids.
  25. # [01:26] * Quits: weinig_ (n=weinig@17.255.111.222)
  26. # [01:28] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  27. # [01:28] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.180)
  28. # [01:39] * Quits: cgriego (n=cgriego@216.138.69.206)
  29. # [01:57] * weinig is now known as selfHatingWeinig
  30. # [01:58] * selfHatingWeinig is now known as weinig
  31. # [02:00] * Joins: kingryan (n=ryan@dsl092-002-056.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  32. # [02:07] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  33. # [02:22] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no) ("Leaving")
  34. # [02:24] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no)
  35. # [02:29] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@nat/apple/x-8a4f084592ce820b)
  36. # [02:31] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no) ("Leaving")
  37. # [02:31] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no)
  38. # [02:34] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.99.33) (Nick collision from services.)
  39. # [02:35] <Hixie> oh lord, my legacy lives on http://oxine.opera.com/documentation/dom-interface.html
  40. # [02:42] * Quits: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64) (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable))
  41. # [02:42] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  42. # [02:45] * Quits: csarven (n=nevrasc@bas16-montreal02-1279648809.dsl.bell.ca) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  43. # [02:45] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no)
  44. # [02:49] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no) (Client Quit)
  45. # [02:50] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no)
  46. # [02:50] <kingryan> long live legacy!
  47. # [02:51] <Philip`> whether you want it to or not
  48. # [02:51] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no) (Client Quit)
  49. # [02:53] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no)
  50. # [02:54] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no) (Client Quit)
  51. # [03:02] * Quits: kingryan (n=ryan@dsl092-002-056.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  52. # [03:28] * Joins: jwalden (n=waldo@STRATTON-TWO-EIGHTY-SEVEN.MIT.EDU)
  53. # [03:32] <Hixie> hsivonen: ok. so. tell me if the new algorithm is better.
  54. # [03:32] <Hixie> jgraham_: your input would be especially interesting too, since you implemented the last version :-)
  55. # [03:45] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-e7a64af12e4d126a)
  56. # [03:54] <annevk> Hixie, do you have a rough plan of what you're going to edit in the spec?
  57. # [03:56] <Hixie> how do you mean?
  58. # [03:58] <annevk> If you had some plan which sections of the specification you're going to work on for the next month or so. I guess I'm mostly interested in when the parsing section gets another update.
  59. # [03:58] <Hixie> no particular plan.
  60. # [03:58] <Hixie> i can start on parsing next if you want.
  61. # [04:01] <annevk> Cool. In particular I'm interested in seeing insertion modes being replaced with phases and updates to DOCTYPE sniffing.
  62. # [04:01] <Hixie> yeah
  63. # [04:01] <Hixie> that scares me
  64. # [04:23] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@17.255.111.222)
  65. # [04:23] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.180) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  66. # [04:23] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.180)
  67. # [04:37] * Quits: weinig_ (n=weinig@17.255.111.222) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  68. # [04:38] * Quits: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@nat/apple/x-8a4f084592ce820b) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  69. # [04:40] * Joins: csarven (n=nevrasc@bas16-montreal02-1279648809.dsl.bell.ca)
  70. # [04:55] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121.72.163.194)
  71. # [05:30] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.180)
  72. # [05:33] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  73. # [06:11] * Quits: phsiao (n=shawn@146.195.217.216.transedge.com)
  74. # [06:16] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@guest-228.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  75. # [06:23] * Joins: phsiao (n=shawn@146.195.217.216.transedge.com)
  76. # [06:23] * Quits: phsiao (n=shawn@146.195.217.216.transedge.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  77. # [06:25] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  78. # [06:28] * Joins: G0k (n=hmason@cpe-24-58-5-224.twcny.res.rr.com)
  79. # [06:34] * Quits: SadEagle (n=maksim@kde/orlovich) (Remote closed the connection)
  80. # [06:36] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  81. # [06:38] * Parts: G0k (n=hmason@cpe-24-58-5-224.twcny.res.rr.com)
  82. # [06:45] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  83. # [06:55] * Quits: csarven (n=nevrasc@bas16-montreal02-1279648809.dsl.bell.ca) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  84. # [07:12] <takkaria> Hixie: how do you twittr the svn commits with whatwg? I want to copy it for one of my projects
  85. # [07:15] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  86. # [07:20] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121.72.163.194)
  87. # [07:36] * Quits: peepo (n=Jay@host86-147-236-233.range86-147.btcentralplus.com) ("later")
  88. # [07:43] * Joins: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  89. # [07:43] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-67-160-251-228.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  90. # [07:49] * weinig is now known as weinig|away
  91. # [08:04] <Hixie> takkaria: send me mail, i'll send you the script
  92. # [08:13] <takkaria> Hixie: ta
  93. # [08:15] <takkaria> sent
  94. # [08:16] * MacDomeOut is now known as MacDome
  95. # [08:16] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121.72.163.194)
  96. # [08:21] <Hixie> ok, sections are updated. e-mail sent.
  97. # [08:41] * Quits: jwalden (n=waldo@STRATTON-TWO-EIGHTY-SEVEN.MIT.EDU) (Remote closed the connection)
  98. # [08:50] * Joins: tndH_ (i=Rob@adsl-83-100-138-77.karoo.KCOM.COM)
  99. # [08:50] * tndH_ is now known as tndH
  100. # [09:21] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  101. # [09:49] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no)
  102. # [09:49] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de) ("Verlassend")
  103. # [09:50] <Lachy> Can anyone explain the logic behind the suggestion to use <dl> for marking up poetry? Even the wiki page with the example seems to have no real explanation
  104. # [09:55] <virtuelv> seems bizarre
  105. # [09:56] <Lachy> it seems that some people, when determining what kind of elements are "prose content" just look at those that say "prose content" in the category list, and fail to look at the definition of prose content
  106. # [09:56] <virtuelv> IMO, poetry is a bad match for examples
  107. # [09:56] <Lachy> the heirarchy of categories should be made clearer somehow
  108. # [09:56] <virtuelv> there is poetry where whitespace is extremely significant
  109. # [09:56] <Lachy> for that, we have <pre>
  110. # [09:57] <virtuelv> yes
  111. # [09:57] <virtuelv> my point is just that using a poem in examples, or suggesting anything particular for poems is bound to fail and cause misunderstandings
  112. # [09:57] * Joins: peepo (n=Jay@host86-147-236-233.range86-147.btcentralplus.com)
  113. # [10:15] * MacDome is now known as MacDomeSleep
  114. # [10:32] * Joins: Camaban (n=adrianle@host81-133-60-253.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  115. # [10:32] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@58.157.21.205) ("Less talk, more pimp walk.")
  116. # [10:40] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-0a20443aa2e0d76f)
  117. # [10:42] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  118. # [10:45] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  119. # [10:47] <Hixie> prose content is a terrible name
  120. # [10:47] <Hixie> i really should fine something better
  121. # [10:49] <Hixie> also "grouping content" and "text-level semantics" are terrible section names
  122. # [10:52] * Quits: MacDomeSleep (n=eric@c-69-181-78-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  123. # [10:56] * Joins: MacDome (n=eric@c-69-181-78-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  124. # [11:06] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  125. # [11:07] <jgraham_> Hixie: I'll try to look at the heading outline stuff in a bit of detail soon
  126. # [11:07] * jgraham_ is, in general, quite busy at the moment
  127. # [11:07] <Hixie> cool
  128. # [11:08] <Hixie> would be good to compare the new algorithm with the old one
  129. # [11:08] <Hixie> see if the same outlines come out
  130. # [11:08] <Hixie> they basically should
  131. # [11:08] <Hixie> though iirc there are some minor intentional differences, in edge cases with invalid markup in particular
  132. # [11:09] <Hixie> also <address> elements will get associated with anonymous sections now, not their DOM parent node <section> if that is a different section
  133. # [11:09] <jgraham_> Also, I'm glad you're still optimistic about FF3 having sane behaviour for unknown elements :)
  134. # [11:10] <Hixie> well they keep saying they'll try something
  135. # [11:10] <Hixie> they haven't given up yet
  136. # [11:11] <Hixie> we _really_ need new names for "prose content", "grouping content", and "text-level semantics"
  137. # [11:13] <Hixie> Maybe Flements, Bloments, and Inments.
  138. # [11:13] <Hixie> that would at least not confuse people into thinking they meant something else
  139. # [11:15] <Hixie> or Flodes, Grements, and Liliments
  140. # [11:15] <annevk> alpha beta and gamma
  141. # [11:16] <Hixie> the advantage of a made up word is that it fits well in the flow of text
  142. # [11:16] <Hixie> "<p> is a flode element"
  143. # [11:16] <Hixie> maybe "prose content" should be "flow content"
  144. # [11:17] * Quits: MacDome (n=eric@c-69-181-78-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  145. # [11:17] <Philip`> You could have a <p> start flag
  146. # [11:17] <Lachy> flow content would work, since that's bascially the equivalent in HTML4
  147. # [11:18] <jgraham_> I suggest not using flow content for the same reason :)
  148. # [11:21] <Hixie> ok flow content it is
  149. # [11:22] <annevk> did someone look at how XHTML2 solved this?
  150. # [11:22] <jgraham_> Does it exactly match the HTML 4 definition?
  151. # [11:23] <annevk> XHTML2 has modules
  152. # [11:23] <annevk> "XHTML Text Module"
  153. # [11:23] <Hixie> you're assuming xhtml2 solved it
  154. # [11:24] <annevk> s/solved/did/
  155. # [11:24] <Hixie> well, they don't have the same concepts we do
  156. # [11:24] <Hixie> they don't have flow < phrasing < embedded, e.g.
  157. # [11:31] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  158. # [11:42] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-151-228-75.range86-151.btcentralplus.com)
  159. # [11:43] * othermaciej is now known as om_sleep
  160. # [11:43] * om_sleep is now known as othermaciej
  161. # [11:46] * othermaciej is now known as om_sleep
  162. # [11:47] <hsivonen> hmm. it would be great to have a script that'd file a v.nu bug every time the spec svn commit message is marked as conformance-checker-relevant
  163. # [11:48] <annevk> at some point the tracker should support Atom with categories or something which might make that easy
  164. # [11:49] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p1215-ipbf3008marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  165. # [11:56] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  166. # [11:59] * Joins: DIrtyF (n=DirtyF@194.214.241.30)
  167. # [12:03] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-67-160-251-228.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("g'night")
  168. # [12:04] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  169. # [13:05] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-0a20443aa2e0d76f)
  170. # [13:06] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-de361614403b2c7c)
  171. # [13:31] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p1215-ipbf3008marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  172. # [13:51] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  173. # [14:20] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p1215-ipbf3008marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  174. # [14:26] * Joins: MacDome (n=eric@c-69-181-78-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  175. # [14:41] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121.72.163.194)
  176. # [15:05] * Quits: starjive (i=beos@81-233-18-73-no30.tbcn.telia.com)
  177. # [15:18] * Joins: starjive (i=beos@81-233-18-73-no30.tbcn.telia.com)
  178. # [15:20] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-de361614403b2c7c) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  179. # [15:38] * Joins: csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable130.251-202-24.mc.videotron.ca)
  180. # [16:07] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-90be09cd86adb025)
  181. # [16:18] * Joins: SadEagle (n=maksim@cpe-69-202-89-106.twcny.res.rr.com)
  182. # [16:27] * Joins: billmason (n=billmaso@ip129.unival.com)
  183. # [16:43] * Quits: billmason (n=billmaso@ip129.unival.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  184. # [16:44] * Quits: DIrtyF (n=DirtyF@194.214.241.30)
  185. # [16:46] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  186. # [16:46] * Joins: billmason (n=billmaso@ip129.unival.com)
  187. # [16:47] * Joins: cgriego (n=cgriego@216.138.69.206)
  188. # [16:49] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p1215-ipbf3008marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  189. # [16:50] <zcorpan> Hixie: making <td> a sectioning root will make the outline algorithm useless for real-world pages where tables are used for layout
  190. # [16:51] <zcorpan> (unless it can be determindated which tables are used for layout and let those be ignored from the rule)
  191. # [16:54] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  192. # [16:55] <zcorpan> (however, i don't know when you'd have sections in <td> unless you were using a layout table, so perhaps <td> simply should not be a sectioning root)
  193. # [17:11] * Joins: DIrtyF (n=DirtyF@gar31-2-82-224-211-195.fbx.proxad.net)
  194. # [17:11] <zcorpan> Hixie: while you're renaming stuff, i think "text-level content" makes more sense than "phrasing content"
  195. # [17:15] <zcorpan> Hixie: html4 described inline as "text-level", and html4 has "phrase elements" (em, strong, dfn, etc)
  196. # [17:19] <gsnedders> Hixie: why do we have "current outlinee" with two "e"s?
  197. # [17:22] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no)
  198. # [17:32] <gsnedders> Hixie: more nitpicking: steps one and two of creating an outline are wrong: they don't hold it yet
  199. # [17:42] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-90be09cd86adb025) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  200. # [17:49] * Quits: weinig|away (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  201. # [18:03] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  202. # [18:10] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  203. # [18:14] <annevk> hmm, ES4 uses a namespace with a version number in it...
  204. # [18:18] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no)
  205. # [18:22] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  206. # [18:40] * Philip` sees that 15% of Alexa Top 500 pages are in HTML5 non-quirks mode, compared to 5% of dmoz.org pages
  207. # [18:41] <Philip`> (and 47% limited-quirks, vs 23%)
  208. # [18:41] <gsnedders> Philip`: and strict v. non-strict?
  209. # [18:42] <Philip`> (and 37% quirks, vs 72%)
  210. # [18:42] <Philip`> (and I hope those numbers add up right)
  211. # [18:43] <Camaban> I imagine dmoz has a lot more 'older' sites
  212. # [18:44] <Philip`> gsnedders: I'm not sure how to measure that exactly
  213. # [18:47] <Philip`> though if I simply count the top XHTML1.0-Strict and HTML4-Strict and XHTML1.1 doctypes, then that's 14% of Alexa and 4% of dmoz
  214. # [18:54] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-de6acc0a143ab2d3)
  215. # [19:01] * Parts: Camaban (n=adrianle@host81-133-60-253.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  216. # [19:10] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/data/doctypes.html | http://philip.html5.org/data/doctypes-alexa.html
  217. # [19:12] * Joins: dveditz (n=dveditz@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  218. # [19:13] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/data/doctypes-alexa.html#%3c%21doctype_html_public_%22-%2f%2fw3c%2f%2fdtd_html_4.01%2f%2fen%22_%22http%3a%2f%2fwww.w3.org%2ftr%2fhtml4%2fstrict.dtd%22_%2f%3e - HTML5 disagrees with Firefox and IE, which maybe isn't good
  219. # [19:14] <Philip`> (and Opera)
  220. # [19:19] <zcorpan> Philip`: thanks for providing links to the pages that have a given doctype
  221. # [19:20] <Philip`> zcorpan: I hope it doesn't matter that I skipped links for the more popular ones - they just made the page unreasonably huge
  222. # [19:20] <Philip`> (It's currently ~1.5MB, or 150KB with gzip, which is not entirely as small as one might wish)
  223. # [19:21] <zcorpan> Philip`: that's fine, i wanted to analyse the less common doctypes :)
  224. # [19:21] <zcorpan> since we're already more aligned with html5 than with ie on the commonly used doctypes
  225. # [19:41] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  226. # [19:45] * Quits: DIrtyF (n=DirtyF@gar31-2-82-224-211-195.fbx.proxad.net)
  227. # [19:57] * Joins: DIrtyF (n=DirtyF@gar31-2-82-224-211-195.fbx.proxad.net)
  228. # [19:59] * Joins: jgraham (n=james@81-86-215-67.dsl.pipex.com)
  229. # [20:01] * Quits: jgraham (n=james@81-86-215-67.dsl.pipex.com) (Client Quit)
  230. # [20:04] * Joins: csarven- (n=nevrasc@modemcable130.251-202-24.mc.videotron.ca)
  231. # [20:16] <Hixie> zcorpan: yes, that was the entire point of making <td> a sectioning root. Also, I couldn't work out what order to make the headers go in, and I figured that in a _conforming_ case of a table with subsections (e.g. a character sheet where one of the cells is a character backstory), you wouldn't actually want them on the main outline.
  232. # [20:17] * Quits: csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable130.251-202-24.mc.videotron.ca) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  233. # [20:17] <Hixie> zcorpan: phrasing content can't be text-level content because phrasing content includes non-text things like <img> and <video>.
  234. # [20:17] <Hixie> gsnedders: "current outlinee" is correct (it's the thing being outlined)
  235. # [20:21] * Joins: dveditz2 (n=dveditz@guest-228.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  236. # [20:22] * Quits: annevk (n=annevk@77.163.243.203) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  237. # [20:23] * Parts: DIrtyF (n=DirtyF@gar31-2-82-224-211-195.fbx.proxad.net)
  238. # [20:26] * Quits: dveditz (n=dveditz@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  239. # [20:30] * Joins: kingryan (n=ryan@dsl092-002-056.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  240. # [20:34] <zcorpan> Hixie: text-level means that it's on the same level as text, not that it is text
  241. # [20:34] <Hixie> yeah but i think that's confusing
  242. # [20:35] <zcorpan> i think phrasing is more confusing :)
  243. # [20:35] * Joins: jgraham (n=james@81-86-215-67.dsl.pipex.com)
  244. # [20:35] <Hixie> though possibly no more confusing than what we have now, indeed
  245. # [20:43] * Quits: csarven- (n=nevrasc@modemcable130.251-202-24.mc.videotron.ca) ("http://www.csarven.ca")
  246. # [20:44] <zcorpan> Hixie: did you mean that the point of making <td> section root was to make the algorithm useless for real-world pages?
  247. # [20:45] <Hixie> well maybe saying it was the whole point was overstating the case a bit
  248. # [20:45] <zcorpan> ok
  249. # [20:45] <Hixie> on a compliant page that happens to use headers in tables, you'd not want those headers in the outline
  250. # [20:45] <Hixie> just like headers in a figure or in a blockquote, they are like a "subdocument"
  251. # [20:46] <Hixie> now, it does mean that outlines don't work in abusive pages, but i'm not shedding any tears over this
  252. # [20:46] <zcorpan> implementors that make outlines probably already know how to spot a layout table, so they could easily exclude those tables
  253. # [20:48] <Hixie> yeah
  254. # [20:48] <Hixie> maybe a quirks mode thing :-)
  255. # [20:48] <zcorpan> tables are used for layout in standards mode too in the wild
  256. # [20:48] <Hixie> yeah
  257. # [20:49] * Joins: parcelbrat (n=parcelbr@75.148.58.42)
  258. # [20:58] <gsnedders> Hixie: peh. that's confusing.
  259. # [20:59] <Hixie> significantly better ideas welcome :-)
  260. # [20:59] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121.72.163.194)
  261. # [21:02] <gsnedders> "current thing being outlined" :P
  262. # [21:03] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-de6acc0a143ab2d3) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  263. # [21:05] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.255.109.153)
  264. # [21:09] <zcorpan> Hixie: "authors are encouraged to place at most one top-level heading in each sectioning element" or some such... but perhaps that's not accurate enough or not understandable
  265. # [21:13] * Parts: parcelbrat (n=parcelbr@75.148.58.42)
  266. # [21:14] <Hixie> yeah
  267. # [21:14] <Hixie> but then again, that's what the current encouragemenet basically proposes
  268. # [21:17] * aroben is now known as aroben|lunch
  269. # [21:19] <zcorpan> that's true
  270. # [21:19] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@17.203.15.180)
  271. # [21:36] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.255.109.153) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  272. # [21:41] * Joins: parcelbrat (n=parcelbr@75.148.58.42)
  273. # [21:43] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  274. # [21:46] * Joins: dolphinling (n=chatzill@132.198.241.207)
  275. # [21:50] <gsnedders> Hixie: what's a character not defined by unicode? from the document conformance section, it seems that not all non-characters are
  276. # [21:50] <Hixie> yeah, but some of them are defined to be permanently undefined
  277. # [21:50] <Hixie> whereas others are merely not yet defined
  278. # [21:51] <gsnedders> oh, wait.
  279. # [21:51] <gsnedders> I realise what I'm mistaking.
  280. # [21:51] <Hixie> i'm so sorry for anne. he's somehow ended up editing a spec with multiple phone calls per week trying to tell him what the spec should say
  281. # [21:51] <Hixie> sure am glad i dumped xmlhttprequest now though :-D
  282. # [21:52] <gsnedders> xxFFFE is the only code point that's always a non-character, as FDD0 to FDEF are only exactly that
  283. # [21:52] <gsnedders> that's what confused me
  284. # [21:52] <Hixie> eh?
  285. # [21:52] <Hixie> there are lots of non-character characters
  286. # [21:52] <Hixie> FFFF
  287. # [21:52] <Hixie> FFFE
  288. # [21:52] <Hixie> U+03FFFE
  289. # [21:52] <Hixie> etc
  290. # [21:52] <Hixie> see the list i just put in the spec, in fact :-)
  291. # [21:53] <gsnedders> I thought it was wrong, that's the only point :)
  292. # [21:53] <Hixie> ok :-)
  293. # [21:53] <gsnedders> but as I said, I'm being silly
  294. # [21:53] <Hixie> well i just copied it from xml 1.0
  295. # [21:53] <Hixie> so...
  296. # [21:53] <gsnedders> I think FFFF is legal
  297. # [21:54] <Hixie> it's not
  298. # [21:54] <gsnedders> "Noncharacters consist of the values U+nFFFE and
  299. # [21:54] <gsnedders> U+nFFFF (where n is from 0 to 1016) and the values U+FDD0..U+FDEF.
  300. # [21:54] <gsnedders> "
  301. # [21:54] <gsnedders> OK, I'm wrong again (and so is my implementation, then)
  302. # [21:54] * gsnedders realises his implementation is just too smart for himself
  303. # [21:54] <gsnedders> my implementation _is_ right.
  304. # [21:55] <gsnedders> `($codepoint & 0xFFFE) === 0xFFFE` does match FFFF
  305. # [21:55] * Quits: dveditz2 (n=dveditz@guest-228.mountainview.mozilla.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  306. # [21:56] <Hixie> or rather, it does match it
  307. # [21:56] <Hixie> but yes
  308. # [21:56] <Hixie> that's a fine check
  309. # [21:56] <gsnedders> If you aren't too tired to misread it :)
  310. # [21:56] <gsnedders> (that's from my PHP impl., FWIW)
  311. # [21:57] <gsnedders> Or rather, It only is if you aren't too tired to understand it
  312. # [21:57] <gsnedders> ergh.
  313. # [21:57] <gsnedders> I can't even do English :)
  314. # [21:57] * gsnedders gives up, and shuts up
  315. # [22:02] <Hixie> knowing when to shut up is a good skill to have :-)
  316. # [22:02] <gsnedders> Hixie: I would rather the bit about when to throw a parse error to be clearer. Surrogates _are_ defined by Unicode (they just have no character assignments), for example
  317. # [22:02] * Parts: cgriego (n=cgriego@216.138.69.206)
  318. # [22:02] <Hixie> there are no surrogate characters
  319. # [22:02] <Hixie> unless i'm misunderstanding you
  320. # [22:02] <Hixie> what is unclear about the spec?
  321. # [22:03] <gsnedders> ah. true. if you take it of the actual meaning of character, yeah.
  322. # [22:03] * gsnedders was thinking of a character as being any code-point, but of course with non-characters that's dumb
  323. # [22:03] * gsnedders shuts up, again
  324. # [22:04] <Hixie> U+.... is the character, not the value as it was in the original byte stream
  325. # [22:04] <Hixie> so if you are decoding as UTF-16, you can never end up seeing a U+.... character from the surrogate blocks
  326. # [22:04] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  327. # [22:04] <gsnedders> yeah, that's true
  328. # [22:04] * gsnedders needs to wake up
  329. # [22:04] <Hixie> and if you do it as UTF-8, and you see one of those characters, it's not actually a surrogate character, it's a non-character
  330. # [22:04] <gsnedders> (or, alternatively, just go to bed)
  331. # [22:04] <Hixie> but anyway
  332. # [22:05] <Hixie> where is the part fo the spec that says not to put encoding declarations in the file?
  333. # [22:05] * Hixie can't find it
  334. # [22:05] * gsnedders didn't know the spec said that
  335. # [22:05] <Hixie> apparently people want me to remove it
  336. # [22:05] <Hixie> which i'm fine with
  337. # [22:05] <Hixie> but i can't find it...
  338. # [22:06] <gsnedders> latest revision to the spec could cause some documents to cause a heckuva lot of parse error, me thinks. but people manage to create a heckuva lot of parse errors anyway.
  339. # [22:07] <Philip`> Hixie: s/occurances/occurrences/ in a recent edit
  340. # [22:07] <Hixie> hate that word
  341. # [22:07] <Hixie> thanks
  342. # [22:08] <kingryan> Hixie: by "encoding declarations in the file", could people be referring to "<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8" />
  343. # [22:08] <kingryan> " ?
  344. # [22:08] <Hixie> kingryan: yes
  345. # [22:08] <gsnedders> on the subject of English, how is the spec both en-gb-x-hixie and en-us-x-hixie at once?
  346. # [22:08] <Hixie> gsnedders: it's mostly -us-, i just haven't fixed the declarations yet
  347. # [22:08] <Hixie> they're in a different file
  348. # [22:08] <kingryan> are people confusing that being allowed with that being required?
  349. # [22:09] <Hixie> kingryan: no, i'm pretty sure i once wrote that people should use Content-Type headers instead
  350. # [22:09] <Hixie> but i can't find it anymore
  351. # [22:10] <Hixie> well, can't find it
  352. # [22:10] <Hixie> oh well
  353. # [22:11] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  354. # [22:12] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121.72.163.194)
  355. # [22:14] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  356. # [22:18] * aroben|lunch is now known as aroben
  357. # [22:20] * Joins: blooberry (n=brian@c-76-126-194-196.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  358. # [22:20] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@77.163.243.203)
  359. # [22:22] * weinig_ is now known as weinig
  360. # [22:26] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  361. # [22:27] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  362. # [22:36] * Quits: peepo (n=Jay@host86-147-236-233.range86-147.btcentralplus.com) ("later")
  363. # [22:36] * Quits: wakaba (n=w@77.137.148.210.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  364. # [22:36] * Joins: wakaba (n=w@77.137.148.210.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  365. # [22:39] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@guest-228.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  366. # [22:40] <annevk> woha, multimousewheel is gone again?
  367. # [22:40] <annevk> hmm
  368. # [22:40] <annevk> i wonder if they thought everything through, such as mousewheel not firing for certain types of scrolling currently
  369. # [22:41] <Hixie> i doubt it
  370. # [22:41] <Hixie> who's editing that spec?
  371. # [22:41] <Hixie> do they have any browser, qa, and spec review exerience?
  372. # [22:43] <annevk> dunno
  373. # [22:43] <annevk> well, the spec is edited by Andrew Emmons I believe
  374. # [22:43] <Hixie> don't know who that is
  375. # [22:44] <annevk> from BitFlash
  376. # [22:44] <Hixie> never heard of it
  377. # [22:44] <annevk> i don't know him either
  378. # [22:44] <Hixie> well, we'll see
  379. # [22:44] <Hixie> there really should be a way to train spec writers
  380. # [22:44] <Hixie> maybe i should write a book or something
  381. # [22:47] <annevk> "HOWTO BE A HIXIE"
  382. # [22:53] <gsnedders> 1) Start a cabal that everyone hates.
  383. # [22:53] <gsnedders> 2) ???
  384. # [22:53] <gsnedders> 3) Profit!
  385. # [22:54] <jgraham> Spec writing for Dummies
  386. # [22:55] * gsnedders realises in another virtual desktop he started a LaTeX file containing "\chapter{Evaluation}" hours ago.
  387. # [22:56] * gsnedders has been doing well at procrastinating today
  388. # [22:56] <gsnedders> Philip`: I've just got an email from <mtanalin@yandex.ru> too
  389. # [22:57] <jgraham> gsnedders, Philip`: I get those
  390. # [22:58] <jgraham> Hixie: re the text "The outline for a sectioning content element or a sectioning root element consists of a list of one or more potentially nested sections. Each section can have zero or one heading associated with it. The algorithm for the outline also associates each node in the DOM tree with a particular section and potentially a heading."
  391. # [22:59] <jgraham> The "sections" referred to here are need not be actual <section> elements or anything, I assume. This could be more clear
  392. # [23:01] * Quits: om_sleep (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  393. # [23:02] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@222-152-130-10.jetstream.xtra.co.nz)
  394. # [23:04] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  395. # [23:05] <Hixie> jgraham: clarified.
  396. # [23:05] <Hixie> (should be regenned in about 20 seconds)
  397. # [23:06] * gsnedders needs less coursework and more spec-gen clone
  398. # [23:07] * Joins: webben (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com)
  399. # [23:13] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@222-152-130-10.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) ("Leaving")
  400. # [23:13] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  401. # [23:15] <annevk> gsnedders, now you make me go looking
  402. # [23:16] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@17.255.109.153)
  403. # [23:20] <Hixie> does anyone actually use ISO-8859-11 ?
  404. # [23:21] <annevk> that's off-topic
  405. # [23:22] <Hixie> well i have feedback here saying i should make -11 turn into win874
  406. # [23:22] <Hixie> and i have no idea if it matters or not
  407. # [23:22] <Hixie> safari doesn't even support -11
  408. # [23:22] <Hixie> (it does support 874)
  409. # [23:24] <annevk> given that 874 is supported and that other browsers do "support" -11 and that mapping is cheap...
  410. # [23:27] <dbaron> Hrm. Hixie's subject lines don't work very well when you have limited horizontal space for subjects. He's always writing "Re: [whatwg] several messages about"
  411. # [23:28] <annevk> "Make using a Win1252-specific byte when the document declared as ISO-8859-1 be a parse error." is that really worth it?
  412. # [23:28] <dbaron> Hixie, and if you're not aware, you should check mozilla/intl/uconv/src/charsetalias.properties for Mozilla's behavior
  413. # [23:28] * annevk thinks ISO-8859-1 should be an alias for the former
  414. # [23:29] <dbaron> Mozilla seems to treat windows-874 and iso-8859-11 separately
  415. # [23:30] <dbaron> Hixie, er, actually, that's not the case
  416. # [23:30] <dbaron> but somebody decided to do that particular mapping in C++ instead
  417. # [23:30] <dbaron> so we treatt iso-8859-11 as windows-874, per bug 127755
  418. # [23:31] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.180) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  419. # [23:39] <Hixie> dbaron: yeah
  420. # [23:40] <Hixie> annevk: adding more complications isn't cheap
  421. # [23:40] <Hixie> annevk: they add up
  422. # [23:40] <annevk> it's a simply hashtable entry
  423. # [23:40] * Quits: parcelbrat (n=parcelbr@75.148.58.42)
  424. # [23:41] <annevk> "iso-8859-1" : "windows-1252", "iso-8859-11" : "windows-874", ...
  425. # [23:41] <Hixie> no, it
  426. # [23:41] <Hixie> is far more than that
  427. # [23:41] <Hixie> not in code
  428. # [23:41] <Hixie> but in cost
  429. # [23:42] <Hixie> it further antagonises the tag, for instance
  430. # [23:42] <Hixie> it makes QA more complex
  431. # [23:42] <Hixie> it makes people who try to use ISO-8859-11 wonder why they're getting od results
  432. # [23:42] <Hixie> etc
  433. # [23:42] * Joins: parcelbrat (n=parcelbr@75.148.58.42)
  434. # [23:42] <Hixie> it makes people say the spec is complicated
  435. # [23:43] <annevk> ideally this would not be solved at the HTML5 level though
  436. # [23:43] <annevk> IANA already has synonyms for charsets
  437. # [23:43] <annevk> they could simply make iso-8859-1 a synomym and likewise for its friends
  438. # [23:44] <Hixie> well, if you can convince them of that, let me know
  439. # [23:45] <annevk> I don't think I'm old enough to deal with what seems to be a political mayhem
  440. # [23:46] * Quits: weinig_ (n=weinig@17.255.109.153)
  441. # [23:46] <annevk> I guess at some point it might be worth trying to fix it...
  442. # [23:46] <Hixie> neither am i :-)
  443. # [23:47] <Hixie> gsnedders: so do i still need to deal with this doctype feedback or is anne's comment enough?
  444. # [23:47] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Feb/att-0080/2008-02-27.html#topic4
  445. # [23:47] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.180)
  446. # [23:49] * Philip` sees no iso-8859-1 in his 125K pages, and 61 windows-874s
  447. # [23:49] <annevk> iso-8859-1 or iso-8859-11 ?
  448. # [23:50] <Philip`> Uh
  449. # [23:50] <Philip`> -11
  450. # [23:50] <Hixie> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
  451. # [23:50] <Hixie> anne: boy i hope that was a minuting error
  452. # [23:51] <Philip`> (except as a substring in http://www.btfonsterteknik.com/ )
  453. # [23:51] <Hixie> Philip`: cool, thanks
  454. # [23:51] <Hixie> i guess i should do a bigger scan
  455. # [23:51] <Hixie> and see what that tells us
  456. # [23:51] <SadEagle> Philip`: if it's not any effort to compute, what about 8859-5?
  457. # [23:52] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-ceb8cf9d84e4b56b)
  458. # [23:52] <annevk> Hixie, yeah... :)
  459. # [23:52] <annevk> Philip`, and while you're at it, how about some stats? :)
  460. # [23:52] <annevk> (on charsets in general)
  461. # [23:53] <Philip`> SadEagle: That wouldn't be any effort, though it'll take a short while while I send grep through 3GB of HTML again :-)
  462. # [23:53] <Hixie> Philip`: you should set up a hadoop cluster for yourself :-)
  463. # [23:54] <Philip`> annevk: I suppose I could just collect all the HTTP content-type and meta content-types and summarise that
  464. # [23:55] <Philip`> Hixie: I only have about one machine so it wouldn't be a very good cluster, and it'd be fast enough by itself if it wasn't part of someone else's tiny cluster that's running an automated theorem prover several million times and using up all the CPU time :-)
  465. # [23:55] <annevk> nice nice
  466. # [23:56] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@guest-228.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  467. # [23:57] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@guest-228.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  468. # [23:58] <gsnedders> Hixie: having it clearer would always be nice
  469. # [23:58] <Hixie> gsnedders: please reply to anne saying what you would suggest to make it clearer then :-) thanks :-)
  470. # [23:59] <Philip`> SadEagle: I see about 7 that claim to be iso-8859-5
  471. # [23:59] <Hixie> Philip`: hah
  472. # Session Close: Thu Feb 28 00:00:00 2008

The end :)