/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-02-28 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Feb 28 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  4. # [00:00] <Hixie> i guess i should actually implement these character encoding algorithms and use those to work out the encodings, huh
  5. # [00:00] <annevk> to be honest, my initial tokenizer implemention did not make the distinction either, but that was quickly rectified when i did the parsing stuff
  6. # [00:00] <Hixie> i'll do that after lunch
  7. # [00:00] <Hixie> back later
  8. # [00:00] <annevk> i still don't like them being non-deterministic
  9. # [00:00] * annevk -> the wire
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  17. # [01:22] <Hixie> OK!
  18. # [01:22] * Hixie flexes fingers
  19. # [01:22] <Hixie> character encoding spec, where are you so i can (a) implement you and then (b) fix you good and well.
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  24. # [02:00] <annevk> I was planning on sleeping, but then I came accross this: http://steinbaugh.com/asides/ems-layout/ "but I’m not planning anything new until HTML 5 or XHTML 2 gets finalized" someone should tell him
  25. # [02:00] <Hixie> xhtml2 might be finalised relatively soon
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  27. # [02:01] <Hixie> so step 3 of the "algorithm for extracting an encoding from a Content-Type" says "If the next six characters are not 'charset', return nothing"
  28. # [02:01] <Hixie> anyone know if i meant that to be a case-insensitive check?
  29. # [02:02] <Philip`> Hmm, it still says "six"?
  30. # [02:03] <Hixie> uh yeah i should fix that while i'm at it
  31. # [02:03] <Hixie> but that wasn't the point :-)
  32. # [02:11] <Philip`> Lots of people use capital CHARSET so it would be most useful if it was case insensitive
  33. # [02:11] <Hixie> good to know
  34. # [02:12] <Philip`> Oh, is this for HTTP Content-Type rather than <meta>?
  35. # [02:12] <Hixie> it's for "text/html;charset=foo"
  36. # [02:12] <Hixie> whether in Content-Type or in <meta content="">
  37. # [02:12] <Hixie> (not <meta charset="">)
  38. # [02:13] <Philip`> Ah, okay
  39. # [02:13] <Hixie> still case-insensitive?
  40. # [02:14] <Philip`> In the HTTP header, I see 3 CHARSET, 223 Charset, 25451 charset, but there are far more CHARSETs in <meta>
  41. # [02:14] <Hixie> k
  42. # [02:14] <Hixie> case-insensitive it is
  43. # [02:14] <Philip`> (I don't currently have a nice way of counting contents of <meta> though)
  44. # [02:14] <Hixie> i'm setting up a script to parse the docs and find that
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  172. # [15:08] <annevk> hmm
  173. # [15:09] <annevk> is it worth responding to the global href thread?
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  175. # [15:13] <Philip`> If you have good arguments then it's probably useful to respond and to update the FAQ to be clearer about those points
  176. # [15:13] <annevk> dunno
  177. # [15:14] <annevk> guess i'll leave it for now
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  179. # [15:15] <annevk> i think <a> should be allowed to wrap around "block level elements" and i think that adding href everywhere complicates processing models too much for no real benefit
  180. # [15:17] <annevk> using script for older user agents is a valid point though
  181. # [15:18] <Philip`> Why does it make the processing model any more complicated than it already has to be to handle global onclick and :hover?
  182. # [15:21] <annevk> because every element gains an additional default click event handler
  183. # [15:22] <annevk> (that might conflict with existing click event handlers (in case of form controls) so you need to make choices how to handle those, etc.)
  184. # [15:22] <annevk> more ways to do something always makes things more complicated, and increases QA cost, etc.
  185. # [15:26] <Philip`> Ah, sounds like the issue is that e.g. a <button> currently has one default click handler and n DOM click event handlers, and <button href> would change that to be >1 default click handler rather than changing it to n+1 DOM click event handlers
  186. # [15:27] <Philip`> (and so then things like preventDefault would become confusing, because there's no longer just one default handler)
  187. # [15:28] <annevk> it's also not clear if submitting the form and following a link at the same time makes any sense
  188. # [15:30] <Philip`> Another issue is you'd sometimes want the other link-related attributes like rel and target and ping, and you'd have media and hreflang and type too for consistency, which would get messy
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  198. # [16:32] <Philip`> http://www.google.com/m/search?q=%ef%bf%bf
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  200. # [16:41] <zcorpan> Philip`: it amuses you doesn't it? :)
  201. # [16:44] <Philip`> zcorpan: It would be more fun if it wasn't so trivial to find exactly the same bugs in every XHTML site :-)
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  203. # [16:51] <Lachy> the problem is that so few developers understand, or even bother to consider, character encoding issues
  204. # [16:52] <Lachy> the bigger problem is that character encodings are too complex for most people to understand
  205. # [16:53] <annevk> hmm, why do I get "invalid character" in Opera for http://www.google.com/m/search?q=%ef%bf%bf but the same Acid3 test still fails?
  206. # [16:57] <Camaban> I agree with that Lachy, I've never found anything talking about character encoding that I could understand terribly well. I can look up and find various bits of info about doctypes and stuff, but good, understandable character encoding info seems a lot harder to find
  207. # [17:01] * Parts: DIrtyF (n=DirtyF@194.214.241.30)
  208. # [17:03] <annevk> ALA prefers IE-propaganda :o
  209. # [17:11] <Lachy> Camaban, search for "Guide to Unicode" in google, then read the first result
  210. # [17:11] <Lachy> http://lachy.id.au/log/2004/12/guide-to-unicode-part-1
  211. # [17:14] <Camaban> will hvae a look :)
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  214. # [17:31] <Camaban> Lachy: sorry, but that comes under the heading of 'stuff I struggle to udnerstand', and I've only read the first couple of paragraphs
  215. # [17:31] <Lachy> Camaban, really? I was told by so many people that it was really easy to understand
  216. # [17:31] <Camaban> Since version 1.1, the Unicode standard has remained fully compatible with ISO/IEC 10646: Universal Multiple-Octet Coded Character Set. The ISO/IEC 10646 standard defines a character repertoire and character code points (or code positions), as well as two character encodings, UCS-2 and UCS-4, allowing for up to 232 code points.
  217. # [17:32] <Camaban> that means absollutely nothing to me
  218. # [17:32] <Lachy> it gets easier
  219. # [17:32] <Camaban> I'll have to have another go at getting further into it when I have a bit more time then
  220. # [17:34] <annevk> Camaban, seen http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/Unicode.html already?
  221. # [17:35] <Camaban> annevk: no, looks like perhaps I dind't know what to search for :)
  222. # [17:35] <Lachy> if you read that one from Joel, then you have to read this one first http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1066145333&count=1
  223. # [17:36] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  224. # [17:36] <annevk> Camaban, I think that one is really good, and pretty accessible too
  225. # [17:37] <Camaban> from a quick scan, it looks so
  226. # [17:38] <Camaban> as a guy who generally codes up HTML/CSS, I tended to search for stuff about character encoding to check what I should be putting in the HTML to make it work properly, the idea of actually needing to search for, and find out about unicode hadn't occured to me
  227. # [17:39] <annevk> it explains encodings further down
  228. # [17:39] <Camaban> yeah, I see that, I guess it needs a few more links to come up in google better :)
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  242. # [18:49] <met_> annevk http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-XMLHttpRequest2-20080225/ HTML 5 (work in pgoress) s/pgoress/progress
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  254. # [19:44] <annevk> met_, thanks, fixed
  255. # [19:46] <met_> annevk, is it possileble tomake suchchanges in released TR document?
  256. # [19:46] <met_> or there is some w3c policy?
  257. # [19:48] <annevk> TR docs are snapshots
  258. # [19:48] <annevk> it will be fixed in the next snapshot
  259. # [19:49] <annevk> sometimes TR docs are "edited in place", but going through that trouble for a Working Draft is not worth it
  260. # [19:49] <met_> ok
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  265. # [20:34] <zcorpan> <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en" " > appeared 23 times in Philip`'s data
  266. # [20:35] <zcorpan> though don't seem too broken in ie because they get terminated at <html lang="..."> or so
  267. # [20:37] <zcorpan> looking at the pages it is getting increasingly clear that ignoring the last two characters in the fpi results in better web compat
  268. # [20:37] <Philip`> The "//en" characters?
  269. # [20:37] <zcorpan> yeah
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  272. # [20:39] <zcorpan> pages with <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//de"> need quirks mode
  273. # [20:51] <zcorpan> aha!
  274. # [20:51] <zcorpan> http://www.quintomiglio.com/ is the first that renders better in standards mode in opera and firefox
  275. # [20:52] <zcorpan> (gets quirks in opera, standards in firefox)
  276. # [20:52] <zcorpan> i had found 14 before that one where the opposite is true
  277. # [20:53] <zcorpan> (and a bunch that would render pretty much the same in quirks and no-quirks)
  278. # [20:59] <annevk> man, what did I do to this Garett Smith
  279. # [20:59] <annevk> Garrett*
  280. # [21:02] * Quits: gavin (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) ("Lost terminal")
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  286. # [21:42] <Hixie> annevk: ?
  287. # [21:44] <annevk> yo
  288. # [21:44] <annevk> ignore my www-archive e-mail please
  289. # [21:44] <Hixie> the acid3 one?
  290. # [21:44] <Hixie> i saw your reply, was already ignoring both :-)
  291. # [21:44] <Hixie> i was wondering what made you wander what you'd did to garrett
  292. # [21:45] <annevk> he seems so hostile
  293. # [21:45] <Hixie> right, but which thread?
  294. # [21:46] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  295. # [21:46] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Feb/thread.html#msg274
  296. # [21:47] <Hixie> oh, www-style
  297. # [21:47] <Hixie> i don't read that anymore
  298. # [21:48] * Joins: jwalden (n=waldo@STRATTON-TWO-O-THREE.MIT.EDU)
  299. # [21:48] <annevk> i do
  300. # [21:48] <annevk> I'm still interested in CSS and nobody else is doing it
  301. # [21:49] <Hixie> yeah
  302. # [21:49] <Hixie> if i wasn't doing html5 i probably would be
  303. # [21:49] <Hixie> though i'd be sorely tempted to start a competing organisation to standardise css properly, with a real community, etc, like the whatwg
  304. # [21:50] <Hixie> lord, you're right, wtf did you do to this guy
  305. # [21:52] <jwalden> existed
  306. # [21:53] <othermaciej> he seems kind of angry
  307. # [21:54] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  308. # [21:55] * Hixie mumbles something about being glad this poem discussion is going on on public-html and not whatwg
  309. # [21:55] <Hixie> i like Philip Taylor's comment:
  310. # [21:55] <Hixie> "I'm reluctant to enter into this debate, yet
  311. # [21:55] <Hixie> feel strangely compelled so to do."
  312. # [21:56] <annevk> i tried reading that wiki page, but it was very unclear and very big
  313. # [21:56] <annevk> so i gave up and did something else
  314. # [21:57] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  315. # [21:57] <Hixie> i fear that when it comes time to go through the wiki pages, a lot of them will be getting a response of "the problem is not described well enough for me to address this issue"
  316. # [21:58] <annevk> surprisingly many being with describing "the solution"
  317. # [21:58] <Lachy> that's because describing a solution is much easier than describing what the problem is
  318. # [21:59] <Hixie> yup
  319. # [21:59] <Hixie> but as editor i can't care about solutions without understanding the problem
  320. # [21:59] <Hixie> since i can't evaluate a solution without knowing the problem
  321. # [21:59] <Lachy> I gave up on the HTMLWG wiki a long time ago, when I realised, despite several attempts to nudge them in the right direction, their content remained mostly useless
  322. # [22:01] <annevk> as with usability, it seems better to learn what people need than what they want
  323. # [22:02] <Philip`> http://tug.ctan.org/cgi-bin/filenameSearch.py?filename=%00 - http://www.hipocampo.org/buscar.asp?search=%01 - http://virtueventures.com/services.php?page=6%ef%bf%bf - this really is too easy
  324. # [22:02] <Lachy> I really don't understand what I did to provoke this hostile respone. http://www.w3.org/mid/47C5A056.4080108@malform.no - I thought all I did was try to clarify what the spec was saying to someone who misunderstood it
  325. # [22:03] <Hixie> he'd already told me off for not understanding him
  326. # [22:03] <Hixie> anyway as far as i'm concerned that issue is resolved
  327. # [22:03] <Hixie> since the term "prose" is no longer in the spec
  328. # [22:04] <Lachy> yeah, him telling you off is understandable. Everyone seems to do that :-)
  329. # [22:05] <annevk> you're part of Hixie's posse Lachy, deal with it :p
  330. # [22:05] <Hixie> :-)
  331. # [22:10] * gsnedders hides from the Cabel
  332. # [22:10] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-67-160-251-228.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  333. # [22:10] <Lachy> gsnedders, do you have a fear of cables or did you mean cabal?
  334. # [22:10] <gsnedders> Lachy: cabal
  335. # [22:16] <jwalden> !summon zcorpan
  336. # [22:19] * Hixie disillusions people on the semantic web in html5 http://realtech.burningbird.net/semweb/semantic-web-dull-as-dishwater-edition/#comment-372
  337. # [22:21] * Quits: csarven- (i=nevrasc@72.158.245.34) ("http://www.csarven.ca")
  338. # [22:21] <Lachy> Hixie, no comment from you on that page
  339. # [22:22] <Lachy> is it awaiting approval?
  340. # [22:23] <Hixie> yeus
  341. # [22:29] * Dashiva wonders how they go from "People make links because they're useful, search engines add extra value" to "People add metadata because... there's no benefit whatsoever"
  342. # [22:30] <Hixie> feel free to comment also
  343. # [22:30] <Hixie> my comment is there now btw
  344. # [22:31] <Hixie> http://www.zingermans.com/ is great
  345. # [22:31] <Hixie> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-16" />
  346. # [22:31] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  347. # [22:32] <Dashiva> I'll leave commenting to the official opera dudes
  348. # [22:39] <Lachy> Dashiva, non-opera people can comment too. It saves us the work :-)
  349. # [22:40] <Dashiva> Yeah, but I might say something to make chaals some after me
  350. # [22:42] <Lachy> why would chaals come after you? you don't work for Opera, do you?
  351. # [22:42] <Dashiva> I have worked for opera three summers in a row now, and I'm several kinds of volunteer rest of the year :)
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  359. # [23:11] <Dashiva> You got a reply, Hixie :)
  360. # [23:11] <Hixie> woah, big reply
  361. # [23:13] <Dashiva> I wonder if links going 404 counts as data rot or not as far as bananas go
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  367. # [23:28] <annevk> i don't think chaals has a bias towards Opera employees
  368. # [23:28] <annevk> btw
  369. # [23:30] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-5a9d33870b04e5dc)
  370. # [23:32] <annevk> lol, TAG gets involved in ARIA
  371. # [23:37] * Hixie searches for the mail anne refers to in his "Unlikely to be useful" folder
  372. # [23:39] <annevk> Hixie, it now changes UTF-16 to UTF-8 in two separate places, that's the idea?
  373. # [23:39] <Hixie> yeah. it was almost three, but i reduced it to two
  374. # [23:40] <Hixie> not sure how to merge the last two, but if it gets more complex i'll abstract it out into a separate "set of steps"
  375. # [23:41] <annevk> oh also, if you're testing charset and stuff, apparently two out of four browsers require http-equiv=content-type
  376. # [23:41] <Hixie> which two?
  377. # [23:41] <Hixie> http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/parsing/encoding/ is my test suite btw
  378. # [23:41] <annevk> IE and Opera iirc
  379. # [23:41] <Hixie> k
  380. # [23:41] <Hixie> seems safe not to require it then
  381. # [23:42] <annevk> i suppose
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  383. # [23:42] <Hixie> it's sad that tbl is no longer really up to date with html on the web
  384. # [23:43] <Hixie> hey does anyone have IE? my mac is trying to update itself and i can't run the VM while that's happening
  385. # [23:43] <annevk> lets keep track of where we are in a decade
  386. # [23:44] <annevk> i have IE7 running, though UI-wise it's limited
  387. # [23:44] <Hixie> i need to know the result of these tests:
  388. # [23:44] <Hixie> http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/parsing/encoding/069.html
  389. # [23:44] <Hixie> http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/parsing/encoding/070.html
  390. # [23:44] <Hixie> http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/parsing/encoding/071.html
  391. # [23:44] <Hixie> http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/parsing/encoding/072.html
  392. # [23:44] <annevk> 69: FAIL
  393. # [23:45] <annevk> windows-1254 used
  394. # [23:45] <annevk> 70 fail, windows-1252 used
  395. # [23:45] <annevk> 71, fail, windows-1254 used
  396. # [23:45] <annevk> 72 fail, windows-1252 used
  397. # [23:46] <Hixie> well crap
  398. # [23:46] <Hixie> that's three browsers, three different sets of results
  399. # [23:46] <Hixie> firefox is Windows-1252 for all four
  400. # [23:46] <SadEagle> heh. for more fun, not that you care, konq3 uses iso-8859-9 --- supposedly, and... well, let's not talk about what 4 does
  401. # [23:46] <Hixie> safari is ISO-8859-9 (equiv of 1254 for the sake of this test) for all four
  402. # [23:47] <Hixie> how about opera?
  403. # [23:47] <annevk> maybe IE doesn't do content="...;charset='...'"
  404. # [23:47] <annevk> Opera passes all four
  405. # [23:48] <Hixie> ISO-8859-9?
  406. # [23:48] <Hixie> hm
  407. # [23:48] <Hixie> well crap
  408. # [23:48] <annevk> Opera ftw
  409. # [23:48] <annevk> :)
  410. # [23:48] <Hixie> well, "pass" is actually not what the spec says right now
  411. # [23:48] <Hixie> windows-1252 for all four is what the spec currently requires
  412. # [23:49] <Hixie> looks like spaces in encoding names is rare
  413. # [23:49] <Dashiva> Oh, Hixie. You and your wacky testcase hijinx
  414. # [23:49] <Hixie> so i guess, no trimming.
  415. # [23:52] <Philip`> annevk: In IE7, I see "PASS" ("Windows-1252") in 070 and 072
  416. # [23:52] <Hixie> i just changed the tests
  417. # [23:52] <Philip`> Ah
  418. # [23:52] <Hixie> anne's earlier report is now out of date
  419. # [23:57] <Dashiva> "But professor, these are the same questions as last year's exam!" "I know. I changed the answers."
  420. # Session Close: Fri Feb 29 00:00:00 2008

The end :)