/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-02-29 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Feb 29 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] * Philip` is reminded of a quiz show that asked how many moons the Earth has, and the correct answer was two; and the next year they asked the same question, and the answer "two" resulted in -10 points because the correct answer was now five
  4. # [00:01] <Lachy> Hixie, Philip`, do either of you have any stats on how much VoteLinks are used? rel=vote-for, vote-against, and vote-abstain?
  5. # [00:02] <Hixie> haven't seen it, but i haven't done studies for rel="" in a while
  6. # [00:03] <blooberry> lachy: what context are they used in? (element)
  7. # [00:04] <Lachy> blooberry, http://microformats.org/wiki/vote-links
  8. # [00:04] <blooberry> ah...A element. gotcha
  9. # [00:05] <blooberry> quick check: 7 times in DMoz URL set for vote-for. didn't find any for the others. Would have to do a deeper check to see if I'm looking for the right thing.
  10. # [00:07] <Lachy> technorati has removed their vote-links tracking page. I guess that means it failed. http://www.technorati.com/live/votes.html
  11. # [00:08] <Hixie> live and learn
  12. # [00:10] <blooberry> ah, I see...it is used more in REV attribute than REL. I found cases for all values...not many though: for: 29 cases; against: 14 cases; abstain: 12
  13. # [00:15] * Quits: billmason (n=billmaso@ip129.unival.com) (".")
  14. # [00:17] <Hixie> out of?
  15. # [00:18] <blooberry> 3.5 million
  16. # [00:19] <Hixie> wow
  17. # [00:19] <Philip`> I see http://www.ehlinelaw.com and http://www.wiredprairie.us out of some tens of thousands that it's still processing
  18. # [00:19] <Hixie> that's low enough that they might be typos!
  19. # [00:19] <blooberry> indeed. 8-}
  20. # [00:19] <blooberry> I'll get a URL list for those now...should take a couple minutes. There could be some URL overlap there too.
  21. # [00:20] <Lachy> 0.0008% seems quite insignificant
  22. # [00:20] <Lachy> I don't need it
  23. # [00:21] <Philip`> Hmph, lots of web pages use attributes
  24. # [00:21] <Lachy> Just needed to know whether or not it had any real world usage, in order to say whether or not it should be included in an HTML reference I'm reviewing
  25. # [00:21] * Philip` 's interesting-attribute extraction thing has got to 500MB of output from 50K pages
  26. # [00:22] <Philip`> blooberry: By the way, I don't know if you noticed but it looks like almost all of cnn.com has been removed from dmoz.org
  27. # [00:23] <Hixie> man i wish people wouldn't say things like "in 8.2.2.1 step 3"
  28. # [00:23] <Hixie> who knows what that will refer to by the time i reply to the e-mail
  29. # [00:23] <Lachy> LOL
  30. # [00:24] <Dashiva> "In line 8137..."
  31. # [00:24] <blooberry> philip`: hadn't noticed *cheers*
  32. # [00:25] <Lachy> Hixie, maybe you should add a big note to the top of the spec, just about the TOC that says section numbers are subject to change, please refer to sections by title (or something equally descriptive)
  33. # [00:26] <Hixie> the people who would notice that are clever enough to work it out for themselves :-)
  34. # [00:26] <blooberry> philip`: I have had some similarly large reports for some web page factors
  35. # [00:28] <Philip`> I don't want to use up all my disk space because then I'll have to try to figure out the LVM commands to add an extra partition and I'll probably break everything horribly
  36. # [00:28] <Lachy> the TOC is likely to be one of the first things people look at when the load the spec, before going to somewhere more specific. I'm sure they would see it if it were big, red and blinking.
  37. # [00:29] <Dashiva> It may blink, but parts of it must not flash for more than 3 seconds.
  38. # [00:36] <gsnedders> Hixie: am I guilty (of using numbers)?
  39. # [00:36] <gsnedders> I know at times I use both number and section title
  40. # [00:38] <blooberry> lachy: ah...just noticed the results list came back for rev=vote-*. only 37 URLs total, and 8 of those were on mp3.com URLs.
  41. # [00:38] <blooberry> philip`: Interesting. It didn't find either of those URLs that you mentioned. 8-{ *looks to see if they are actually in my database*
  42. # [00:38] <blooberry> (my crawl is from ~3 months ago though)
  43. # [00:41] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  44. # [00:42] <Philip`> http://www.ehlinelaw.com http://www.wiredprairie.us http://maxicine.com/cine/criticas-cine-moriras-en-tres-dias-31303 is all, out of 125K from a few days ago
  45. # [00:42] <Hixie> the rev=vote-against on http://www.wiredprairie.us is bogus
  46. # [00:42] <Hixie> (it's to a javascript: uri!)
  47. # [00:43] <Hixie> it's talking about what the user is voting against
  48. # [00:43] <Hixie> not what the page is voting against
  49. # [00:44] <Hixie> and http://www.ehlinelaw.com seems to have vote-for on almost all internal links
  50. # [00:44] <Hixie> looks like a misguided SEO attempt
  51. # [00:47] <blooberry> hmm. my script isn't picking up the REV from ehlinelaw...interesting and weird.
  52. # [00:49] <Philip`> blooberry: Is that something like case sensitivity, or more significant misparsing of the page?
  53. # [00:50] <blooberry> it could be. This is worth tracking down. 8-}
  54. # [00:54] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-5335dc4dfaaff5f3)
  55. # [00:56] <blooberry> ah...heheh. not a bug. In my output I was just putting it in a different section that I had hidden. It does find it, so it must be a more recent addition.
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  58. # [01:05] <annevk> nice, getSVGDocument() == contentDocument now
  59. # [01:05] <annevk> would've been better if the former was never introduced, but still
  60. # [01:07] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  61. # [01:13] <eseidel> annevk: but does getSVGDocment() === contentDocument...
  62. # [01:13] <eseidel> I would expect it to
  63. # [01:14] <Hixie> what do you call an attack that is described in a security vulnerability report
  64. # [01:14] <Hixie> it's not an actual attack
  65. # [01:14] <Hixie> it's not a hypothetical attack
  66. # [01:14] <Hixie> it's a...
  67. # [01:15] <annevk> eseidel, yeah, it should
  68. # [01:16] <annevk> invalid report?
  69. # [01:16] <Hixie> ?
  70. # [01:16] <annevk> nm
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  74. # [01:20] <Hixie> you know, i should set up some sort of little exam
  75. # [01:20] <Hixie> that asks questions like:
  76. # [01:21] <dveditz> Hixie: "proof of concept"?
  77. # [01:21] <Hixie> Q. which of the following requirements is incorrect:
  78. # [01:21] <Hixie> 1. a character encoding saying UTF-16 must be treated as UTF-8
  79. # [01:22] * Parts: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  80. # [01:23] <Hixie> 2. an invalid UTF-8 byte sequence must cause the user agent to informed the user of the presence of an error
  81. # [01:23] <Hixie> 3. the content-type header of the resource must be ignored
  82. # [01:23] <dveditz> can we be typo nazis?
  83. # [01:23] <annevk> dveditz, doesn't matter in this case :)
  84. # [01:23] <Hixie> and people have to get 80% of the questions right before their input is taken into account
  85. # [01:23] * Hixie comes off his high horse
  86. # [01:24] <Hixie> dveditz: proof of concept is perfect, thanks
  87. # [01:24] <gsnedders> Hixie: surely both 2 and 3 are incorrect? Unless substituting U+FFFD for that sequence constitutes informing the user; as the content-type header is sometimes respected (and so isn't totally ignored).
  88. # [01:24] <dveditz> it's a std term for non-attacks that demonstrate a vulnerability
  89. # [01:25] <gsnedders> </smartass>
  90. # [01:25] <Hixie> gsnedders: well, i really meant "which of the following requirements must not appear anywhere in the html5 spec"
  91. # [01:25] <Hixie> dveditz: yeah. couldn't recall the term :-)
  92. # [01:25] <annevk> Hixie, could be part of your book ;)
  93. # [01:25] <gsnedders> Hixie: MUST or must? :P
  94. # [01:26] <gsnedders> (yes, I had to do that)
  95. # [01:26] <gsnedders> Hixie: but the answer is therefore 2
  96. # [01:26] <annevk> you alread closed </smartass>; now you're just being invalid
  97. # [01:26] <annevk> or maybe ill-formed
  98. # [01:26] <eseidel> annevk++
  99. # [01:26] <gsnedders> annevk: it has an implicit opening element, as before
  100. # [01:27] <gsnedders> s/element/tag/
  101. # [01:27] <Hixie> good god you guys are all so pedantic. awesome. i approve.
  102. # [01:28] * SadEagle asks Hixie about the meaning of "saying" in #1
  103. # [01:28] <Hixie> clearly you all pass this exam with flying colours
  104. # [01:29] <gsnedders> see, Hixie didn't even state the exam question well enough for me :P
  105. # [01:29] <eseidel> Hixie: are you training your army now?
  106. # [01:29] <gsnedders> now, back to a third of my computer exam (i.e., the coursework), which by now is due in today
  107. # [01:29] <Hixie> eseidel: my minions! mwuhahaha!
  108. # [01:29] <Hixie> er
  109. # [01:29] <Hixie> did i say that out loud
  110. # [01:30] <gsnedders> No. You typed it.
  111. # [01:30] <gsnedders> Actually, I don't know if you did.
  112. # [01:30] <gsnedders> But you certainly typed it.
  113. # [01:31] <gsnedders> You may be mistaking the two media.
  114. # [01:31] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-862dec096e60712f)
  115. # [01:32] <Philip`> Is there any text-to-speech software that can be trained to do evil laughs?
  116. # [01:38] <Dashiva> I don't know, but I know there's a "rim shot" flash
  117. # [01:38] <Dashiva> Always a winner in good company
  118. # [01:38] <SadEagle> Philip`: just ask hixie to send you voice samples
  119. # [01:38] * SadEagle wonders about aural CSS for that sort of thing
  120. # [01:38] <Dashiva> laugh-type: mad-scientist;
  121. # [01:39] <annevk> laugh-lang: en-GB--or-was-it-US-x-Hixie;
  122. # [01:40] * annevk should get some sleep
  123. # [01:40] <annevk> nn
  124. # [01:40] <gsnedders> nn
  125. # [01:40] * gsnedders needs less urgent deadlines
  126. # [01:40] <Dashiva> Is hx taken as language code? Otherwise we could use that
  127. # [01:41] <Dashiva> The whole en-GB-x-hixie thing just leads to copy-paste markup
  128. # [01:41] <Dashiva> It's just a talisman anyhow
  129. # [01:41] <Philip`> gsnedders: I find deadlines are only urgent because I never do any work before they are :-)
  130. # [01:42] <gsnedders> Philip`: heh. I've been too ill to. I normally do spend the entire day doing nitpicking editing, not writing half the damned thing.
  131. # [01:42] <kingryan> Lachy: votelinks have very low adoption
  132. # [01:42] <kingryan> probably not worthy a mention in a reference on HTML
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  136. # [01:54] <Hixie> hsivonen?
  137. # [01:54] <Hixie> is http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/analysis.txt the best and most up to date analysis?
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  180. # [06:58] <Hixie> ok
  181. # [06:58] <Hixie> next complaint
  182. # [06:58] <Hixie> could people please tell me what section they're talking about in the body of the message?
  183. # [06:59] <Hixie> i don't have the subject line when i do these mass replies :-)
  184. # [07:10] <jruderman_> maybe you should tweak your software so you do have subject lines
  185. # [07:10] <Hixie> far easier just to complain
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  191. # [07:45] <Hixie> i love how i have a dozen algorithms in the spec, each of which uses a different set of typographic conventions to do the same thing
  192. # [07:45] <Hixie> some use subscripts
  193. # [07:45] <Hixie> some use foo[n] syntax
  194. # [07:45] <Hixie> some use elaborate english phrases
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  202. # [08:48] <hsivonen> I'm sick and I'm not really here, but http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/analysis.txt is the latest analysis of that kind (a month old, though)
  203. # [08:59] <Hixie> thanks
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  208. # [09:57] <Hixie> i don't understand why my site is doing gzip compression
  209. # [09:57] <Hixie> i have:
  210. # [09:57] <Hixie> <IfModule mod_gzip.c> mod_gzip_on No
  211. # [09:57] <Hixie> </IfModule>
  212. # [09:57] <Hixie> (er, but on three lines)
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  219. # [10:19] <Hixie> hm
  220. # [10:19] <Hixie> anyone else tried posting to the whatwg list recently?
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  224. # [10:40] <Hixie> what should <embed ===> parse as?
  225. # [10:47] <jgraham_> Hixie: I just tried posting to the whatwg list and got an error response suggesting some disk is full
  226. # [10:47] * jgraham_ wonders if putting full python tracebacks in the errors is such as good idea
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  243. # [12:42] <annevk> so it seems Garrett's problem comes down to the CSSOM not following IE in standards mode
  244. # [12:43] <annevk> and endorsing what other browsers do with respect to special casing the HTML body element which he considers wrong
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  248. # [13:09] <Philip`> Oh, it's a leap year?
  249. # [13:10] * Philip` fixes his watch, since it's clearly not designed to cope with the complexities of time
  250. # [13:11] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  251. # [13:11] * Philip` wonders when Time5 will be done
  252. # [13:11] <annevk> mine actually says FR 29
  253. # [13:15] <Philip`> Hixie: It seems quite possible that you're using mod_deflate instead of mod_gzip, and so you might want something like RemoveOutputFilter
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  275. # [15:24] * Philip` sees that http://www.mozilla.org/projects/intl/UniversalCharsetDetection.html contains lots of U+FFFD symbols unless you use a manual override for iso-8859-1
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  314. # [18:09] * Philip` doesn't have any interesting content-type conflicts in his data :-(
  315. # [18:09] <Philip`> (I see about 25 sites sending multiple content-types, out of 125K pages, but they're all either sending two the same or are sending one "text/html" and one "text/html; charset=...")
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  318. # [18:16] <Philip`> http://www.greenvironment.fi - a dozen sites send exactly those Limerick HTTP headers
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  324. # [18:44] <gsnedders> Philip`: horrific. it should be X-Limerick.
  325. # [18:45] * Quits: peepo (n=Jay@host86-147-236-233.range86-147.btcentralplus.com) ("later")
  326. # [18:46] <gsnedders> Philip`: it seems to be as common as cneonction headers
  327. # [18:49] <Philip`> Most of the Cneonctions come from imdb.com
  328. # [18:50] <Philip`> but not all
  329. # [18:50] <Philip`> http://labs.google.com/papers.html - Cneonction: close
  330. # [18:50] <Philip`> http://labs.google.com/ - NnCoection: close
  331. # [18:52] <Philip`> Hixie: ^ bug report :-)
  332. # [18:53] <Philip`> gsnedders: I only see Cneonction on 11 different domains
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  334. # [18:59] <Philip`> Oh, and 11 is about a dozen, so you were right that it's as common
  335. # [18:59] <Philip`> +/- some huge margin of error in this data
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  339. # [19:17] <gsnedders> Philip`: I don't even want to guess how many million percent :P
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  341. # [19:22] <Philip`> gsnedders: It's nowhere near that huge an error :-p
  342. # [19:22] <Philip`> at least when "error" means "difference between measured sample mean and true population mean, where population is the ~4.5M things in dmoz.org that the sample was taken from and isn't necessarily representative of "the web""
  343. # [19:23] <Philip`> but I can't remember how to do the statistics and I can't be bothered to find out now :-)
  344. # [19:23] <gsnedders> if you define the population to be so small, I guess
  345. # [19:23] <gsnedders> Philip`: I'm meant to know for physics :P
  346. # [19:24] <Philip`> Why do you say it's small?
  347. # [19:24] <gsnedders> dmoz.org, and not the entire web
  348. # [19:25] <Philip`> The size of the population doesn't really matter - as long as it's enough times larger than the sample size, there's no benefit in making it much larger again
  349. # [19:26] <Philip`> (whereas there's always a benefit in making the sample size larger)
  350. # [19:26] * Quits: bzed (n=bzed@devel.recluse.de) ("leaving")
  351. # [19:26] <Philip`> so the (non)representativeness is the much more significant issue
  352. # [19:26] * Joins: bzed (n=bzed@devel.recluse.de)
  353. # [19:27] <Philip`> but that's easy to avoid by just saying "(n+/-e)% of pages from dmoz.org have some property" and if somebody tries to generalise that to the rest of the web then that's their fault and not mine
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  360. # [19:42] * kingryan is learning that he's "part of the problem" :)
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  368. # [20:12] * gsnedders laughs
  369. # [20:12] <gsnedders> post to whatwg needs to be moderated: "Too many recipients to the message"
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  371. # [20:14] <Lachy> gsnedders, which post are you referring to?
  372. # [20:28] <jgraham> gsnedders: I got that on the content type sniffing thread. OTOH, I didn't mean to send it to whatwg at all
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  379. # [20:41] <gsnedders> Lachy: to the whatwg mailing list
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  402. # [21:42] <annevk> Hixie, Firefox is sniffing Content-Encoding stuff too now?
  403. # [21:43] <Hixie> no but apparently they are aware of pages they want to render correctly that they are not rendering correctly because of this, and so they plan to change to not be affected by the presence or absensce of that header
  404. # [21:44] <annevk> k
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  411. # [21:58] <Hixie> aw, apparently I "haven't the faintest idea of how to write a specification that
  412. # [21:58] <Hixie> will last beyond the current fad-of-the-day in implementations"
  413. # [21:59] <Hixie> i wonder what it means for a specification to last... does a specification last if nobody implements it correctly?
  414. # [21:59] <SadEagle> Hixie: beats writing unimplementable specs
  415. # [21:59] <Hixie> can't disagree with that
  416. # [21:59] <annevk> you don't really want static specs anyway
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  418. # [22:01] <annevk> Hixie, fwiw, https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=408098
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  420. # [22:03] <gsnedders> Hixie: where did that come from?
  421. # [22:05] <Hixie> latest mail to public-html
  422. # [22:05] <gsnedders> Hixie: re: your mention of my parsing draft, I really need to scrap what I've written already :)
  423. # [22:05] <Hixie> right, time to shower and go to work. bbl.
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  440. # [23:03] <eseidel> Hixie: is Acid3 final now?
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  447. # [23:23] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-0f1d1580f079231c)
  448. # [23:32] * Quits: phsiao (n=shawn@nat/ibm/x-83430a45afa6f684)
  449. # [23:33] * Quits: weinig__ (n=weinig@17.255.96.92) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  450. # [23:36] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-142-194-45.range86-142.btcentralplus.com) ("Partying in teh intarwebs")
  451. # [23:38] <Hixie> eseidelDesk: ye, but for some reason it still hasn't been announced
  452. # [23:39] * Quits: jgraham (n=james@81-86-215-67.dsl.pipex.com) ("I get eaten by the worms")
  453. # [23:39] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121.72.163.194)
  454. # [23:45] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-60a3f0dd6d6be946)
  455. # [23:55] * Quits: SadEagle (n=maksim@cpe-69-202-89-106.twcny.res.rr.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  456. # Session Close: Sat Mar 01 00:00:00 2008

The end :)