/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-03-03 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Mar 03 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  18. # [03:20] <Hixie> so my girlfriend looks over my shoulder at the changes i just made, and without knowing i had just added them, points to the three sections i added or renamed today and laughs at me for naming them that
  19. # [03:20] <Hixie> maybe i'm having a bad naming day or something
  20. # [03:31] <Lachy> Hixie, which section names were they?
  21. # [03:32] <Hixie> the "after after body insertion mode", the "after after frameset insertion mode", and the "unexpected end" (with the rules for when you stop parsing "with prejudice")
  22. # [03:53] <Hixie> god, i can't wait for gsnedders' preprocessor
  23. # [04:10] <mpt> after after?
  24. # [04:13] <jwalden> after post-* perhaps if you care enough about the wording
  25. # [04:22] <Lachy> does anyone know if Firefox 3 has implemented support for any microformats yet? If so, what have they got, or did they drop that idea?
  26. # [04:27] <jwalden> I think it's mostly extensionland
  27. # [04:39] <Lachy> yeah, I'm aware of the extensions, but there were announcements around the beginning of last year that FF3 was going to add native support for them
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  30. # [05:22] <jwalden> I think they never had a developer willing and capable, time-wise, of doing so
  31. # [05:22] <jwalden> but I didn't pay too mcuh attention
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  36. # [06:22] <Hixie> Philip`: yt?
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  53. # [09:23] <zcorpan> Hixie: re gamespy.com, opera does use quirks mode, apparently; i was probably getting confused myself by all the testing back and forth
  54. # [09:24] <Hixie> were the changes i made still good?
  55. # [09:24] <zcorpan> i think so
  56. # [09:25] <zcorpan> haven't looked at the changelog yet, but i trust that you did what you said you did :)
  57. # [09:25] <Hixie> please don't :-)
  58. # [09:25] <zcorpan> i have some more doctype feedback coming soon
  59. # [09:25] <Hixie> with these changes i expect i've made all kinds of errors
  60. # [09:25] <Hixie> cool
  61. # [09:26] <zcorpan> i think we need to ignore the trailing "EN" (or whatever it might be) in the FPI
  62. # [09:27] <zcorpan> firefox and safari don't work with a number of pages because of that
  63. # [09:27] <zcorpan> but opera and ie do
  64. # [09:29] <zcorpan> looking at about 60 pages that have something other than //EN at the end (and wouldn't trigger standards mode anyway), 34 look good only in quirks mode, 1 looks good only in standards mode (in opera/firefox), and 1 looks good only in standards mode in opera but the same in quirks or standards in firefox
  65. # [09:29] <zcorpan> and the rest looked pretty much the same in either mode
  66. # [09:34] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  67. # [09:38] <Hixie> if you haven't already, send mail saying how you propose to check for that in the spec
  68. # [09:39] <zcorpan> i'm about to send it in a minute. just check that the FPI *starts* with e.g. "-//w3c//dtd html 3.2//"
  69. # [09:40] <hsivonen> Hixie: should I expect large volumes of conformance checker-relevant spec changes in the near term?
  70. # [09:40] <Hixie> hsivonen: i'm currently going through the tree construction feedback
  71. # [09:40] <hsivonen> Hixie: I take that as a "yes" :-)
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  73. # [09:41] <Hixie> well, i'm almost done
  74. # [09:41] <Hixie> and after that i'm out of things to do again
  75. # [09:41] <Hixie> so. maybe not "large" volumes :-)
  76. # [09:41] <hsivonen> ok. perhaps then I should just file bugs for the changes manually and not write a script
  77. # [09:45] <hsivonen> hmm. looks like I'm going to need the script anyway.
  78. # [09:49] <Hixie> script?
  79. # [09:51] <hsivonen> Hixie: a script for mining the spec svn log for conformance checker and tools-relevant changes and filing bugs automatically so that I don't miss changes
  80. # [09:51] <hsivonen> at this point, doing a vgrep on the spec and parser source isn't such a great idea
  81. # [09:51] <hsivonen> or vdiff, rather
  82. # [09:54] <hsivonen> hmm. I see a form field called "source" handled in web-apps-tracker, but I don't see a field named that way in the form
  83. # [09:55] <zcorpan> hsivonen: another hidden feature? :)
  84. # [09:55] <Hixie> anything with "c" (or is it "v"? one or the other) in the "affected" part of the checkin comments will give you the checkins that i think affect you
  85. # [09:56] <hsivonen> Hixie: yeah. now I need to figure out how to modify web-apps-tracker to post to Bugzilla
  86. # [09:56] <Hixie> heh
  87. # [09:56] <Hixie> good luck wit hthat
  88. # [09:57] <hsivonen> umm. is there a reason to expect that luck is needed when posting to Bugzilla_
  89. # [09:57] <hsivonen> ?
  90. # [10:02] <Hixie> well your script will need to deal with cookies
  91. # [10:03] <Hixie> which always makes things exciting in my experience
  92. # [10:04] <hsivonen> isn't the login cookie a constant that can be hard-coded once sniffed from a browser session?
  93. # [10:12] <Hixie> not with bugzilla
  94. # [10:12] <Hixie> it is ip-address locked, iirc
  95. # [10:15] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@77.163.243.203)
  96. # [10:15] <zcorpan> hsivonen: see http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3739972#post3738863 and onward
  97. # [10:16] <zcorpan> Hixie: likewise, perhaps accesskey should be made conforming... :)
  98. # [10:16] <Hixie> there's a whole folder on accesskey
  99. # [10:16] <Hixie> we need a solution
  100. # [10:16] <Hixie> we don't have one
  101. # [10:16] <Hixie> at least last i checked :-)
  102. # [10:17] <zcorpan> flagging it as an error isn't helping authors, it seems
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  104. # [10:27] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I'm still trying to shun doctype sniffing on the XML side
  105. # [10:27] <zcorpan> hsivonen: yeah
  106. # [10:28] <hsivonen> (for the reasons stated in http://hsivonen.iki.fi/doctype/#xml )
  107. # [10:28] <Hixie> zcorpan: i agree; i haven't worked out what we should do yet
  108. # [10:28] * Joins: MacDome (n=eric@c-69-181-78-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  109. # [10:28] <hsivonen> zcorpan: and the project that became Validator.nu started specifically as a non-DTD validator
  110. # [10:29] <zcorpan> hsivonen: don't tell me :)
  111. # [10:29] <Philip`> Hixie: Yes
  112. # [10:29] <hsivonen> :-)
  113. # [10:30] <Hixie> Philip`: no idea what i wanted to ask you anymore, sorry. it was probably about one of the e-mails you sent, in which case the question will be in my e-mail reply now.
  114. # [10:30] <Philip`> Oh, okay :-)
  115. # [10:31] <hsivonen> zcorpan: anyway, I don't find actionable feedback that doesn't run counter central design decisions or that don't belong to Hixie's plate instead (accesskey)
  116. # [10:31] <zcorpan> hsivonen: what about the accept header?
  117. # [10:34] <hsivonen> zcorpan: My thinking is that XHTML+MathML+SVG+RDF has a larger feature set than HTML only, so the former should be preferred
  118. # [10:34] <hsivonen> besides, people who do conneg usually want everything but IE to see the non-text/html version
  119. # [10:35] <hsivonen> moreover, the generic UI has a manual override anyway
  120. # [10:36] <zcorpan> makes sense, i guess tommy's case is a bit uncommon in using xhtml but wanting html
  121. # [10:36] <zcorpan> hsivonen: can i send GET parameters along with Opera's validate feature now?
  122. # [10:37] <zcorpan> (or remember settings some other way?)
  123. # [10:40] <hsivonen> zcorpan: what kind of GET parameters? Opera does a POST, doesn't it?
  124. # [10:40] <zcorpan> hsivonen: uh, make that GET-like parameters along with a POST request
  125. # [10:41] <zcorpan> that is, typing in http://validator.nu/?parser=html in opera:config
  126. # [10:41] <hsivonen> zcorpan: they are supported if those fields come before the form field that contains the document
  127. # [10:41] <hsivonen> oh
  128. # [10:41] <hsivonen> that's not supported
  129. # [10:41] <Hixie> me gets an e-mail from someone saying that the acid3 page on wikipedia is unfair to oepra because opera can't show its daily progress on nightly builds
  130. # [10:41] <Hixie> i wonder if i should point out that it was opera people who _created_ that page...
  131. # [10:42] <Philip`> It seems no more unfair to Opera than it is to IE
  132. # [10:43] <hsivonen> zcorpan: filed http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=77
  133. # [10:43] <Hixie> Philip`: well they also said it was unfair to IE
  134. # [10:44] <zcorpan> hsivonen: thanks
  135. # [10:49] <Hixie> hsivonen: so you think <table><p><i></table> should be only one error, not two? (wrong place for the <p>, missing </i>)
  136. # [10:51] <Hixie> i guess <table><p><i><tr> should arguably be not fewer errors than <table><p><i></table>
  137. # [10:51] <Hixie> and right now it is
  138. # [10:55] <hsivonen> Hixie: what have I said?
  139. # [10:56] <hsivonen> Hixie: two errors in that case seems reasonable on surface
  140. # [10:56] <Hixie> i've made it one error
  141. # [10:56] <Hixie> (foster parenting)
  142. # [10:56] <hsivonen> Hixie: well, that's sufficient for finding the document as a whole to be in error
  143. # [10:56] <Hixie> and made <table><p><tr> be one error too (it used to be two errors)
  144. # [10:56] <Hixie> yeah
  145. # [10:57] <Hixie> the next commit is this change
  146. # [10:58] <Hixie> man, i kee having to look at what the subject line of these mails was to work out what section they're talking about
  147. # [11:00] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  148. # [11:00] <annevk> hmm, i guess I can duplicate the subject line in the body somehow from now on
  149. # [11:00] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'm having trouble parsing that. Do you mean all the relevant bits should be in the email body from now on?
  150. # [11:01] <Hixie> pretend that i never look at the subject line
  151. # [11:01] <Hixie> i read the e-mail bodies to work out where to file the e-mails, and when i reply to them i just reply to a concatenated stream of bodies
  152. # [11:02] <Hixie> so really i never see the subject lines
  153. # [11:02] <hsivonen> Hixie: ok
  154. # [11:02] <Hixie> thanks :-)
  155. # [11:02] <annevk> can't you concatenate the subject too btw?
  156. # [11:02] <Hixie> (it's no biggie, though)
  157. # [11:03] <Hixie> annevk: i use pine, and pine doesn't do that
  158. # [11:03] <hsivonen> (aside: the bugzilla login cookie seems to be a constant)
  159. # [11:03] <Hixie> really? not ip-locked?
  160. # [11:03] <Hixie> i wonder why i keep getting logged out then
  161. # [11:03] <hsivonen> Hixie: I mean constant across requests
  162. # [11:03] <Hixie> ah ok
  163. # [11:03] <annevk> you can make it ip-locked if you want
  164. # [11:04] <annevk> at least, last time I checked that was optional
  165. # [11:04] <Hixie> yeah but that check box seems to not work across browsers, or something
  166. # [11:04] <Hixie> maybe it's locked to browser+ip or something
  167. # [11:04] <Hixie> i dunno
  168. # [11:04] <gavin_> the checkbox doesn't remove all IP restrictions, afaik
  169. # [11:04] <Hixie> i do know i keep having to log in to the various bugzilla instances i use
  170. # [11:04] <gavin_> it only makes them looser
  171. # [11:04] <Hixie> ah
  172. # [11:04] <Hixie> well it's annoying as hell
  173. # [11:05] <annevk> maybe it's better to have a private pc versus public pc option...
  174. # [11:08] <Philip`> Maybe they do that since it's easy to make an attachment file that steals people's cookies?
  175. # [11:09] <Philip`> but then they could just use HttpOnly cookies instead
  176. # [11:14] <hsivonen> Hixie: do I understand correctly that when you say "BOM", you mean U+FEFF. but when the Unicode folks say "BOM", they mean U+FEFF that indeed functions as a BOM?
  177. # [11:15] <Hixie> i rarely say "BOM" alone
  178. # [11:15] <Hixie> i usually say "U+FEFF BYTE ORDER MARK character" or some such
  179. # [11:17] <hsivonen> oh. Martin Dürst was quoting gsnedders, not you
  180. # [11:17] <hsivonen> anyway, I think I agree with Martin's point if I understood it correctly
  181. # [11:17] <zcorpan> speaking of BOMs, i noted a while ago that ES4 strips/ignores *all* U+FEFFs
  182. # [11:18] <zcorpan> because it was needed for web compat
  183. # [11:18] <hsivonen> that is, I think BOM swallowing should be left on the encoding layer except in the case of UTF-8 in which case the HTML5 layer should swallow it
  184. # [11:19] <hsivonen> conceptually, that is
  185. # [11:19] <Hixie> hsivonen: respond to my e-mail on the subject explaining why it helps users to do that instead of what i proposed :-)
  186. # [11:19] <hsivonen> in practice, the BOM sniffing needs to happen on the HTML layer, though...
  187. # [11:20] <hsivonen> so one would actually implement "UTF-16" by instantiating a UTF-16BE or a UTF-16LE decoder after swallowing the BOM
  188. # [11:20] <Hixie> x<table> x</table> -- should that render as "xx" like in firefox, or "x x" like in safari?
  189. # [11:21] <hsivonen> Hixie: I guess I have to reread what you proposed and test UTF-16BE with initial U+FEFF in browsers
  190. # [11:21] <annevk> Firefox seems better
  191. # [11:21] <annevk> (because you keep whitespace inside the <table>, which is also what Acid3 requires fwiw...)
  192. # [11:22] <hsivonen> after all, it seems to boil down to whether browsers treat an initial U+FEFF in UTF-16BE as non-space character data or not
  193. # [11:22] <Hixie> oh there's no doubt that <table> </table> has no foster parenting
  194. # [11:22] <Hixie> annevk: (the safari output could be obtailed through adoption)
  195. # [11:22] <annevk> then i guess I don't care
  196. # [11:22] * Hixie looks at his data to see if anyone is using utf-16
  197. # [11:23] <annevk> <form> parsing is still causing us issues btw
  198. # [11:23] <hsivonen> Safari output follows from doing the whitespaceness check on the text node level which kinda makes sense
  199. # [11:23] <annevk> nested forms are common enough to warrent special rules it seems... :(
  200. # [11:23] <Hixie> annevk: has feedback been sent?
  201. # [11:24] <annevk> no, I've no idea what the spec should say
  202. # [11:24] <annevk> but probably something that matches WebKit/Firefox
  203. # [11:25] <Hixie> i saw UTF-16 explicitly declared on 0.004% of pages
  204. # [11:26] <Hixie> annevk: well, i don't even know what the issue is unless i have feedback :-)
  205. # [11:26] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  206. # [11:27] * Philip` wrote a page with some script that DOM-inserts a form into the middle of another form, because he wanted an asynchronous file-upload box in the middle of a normal input form, and it felt quite evil :-(
  207. # [11:27] <Philip`> (but I think it works anyway, so that's good enough for me)
  208. # [11:32] <Hixie> hmm
  209. # [11:32] <Hixie> i wonder if we should do what hsivonen suggests in this e-mail, and basically make the tokeniser only emit strings, not characters
  210. # [11:33] <Philip`> How does that work with incremental rendering?
  211. # [11:33] <Philip`> (...of pages which are just text)
  212. # [11:34] <Hixie> poorly
  213. # [11:34] <Hixie> it also works poorly with things like " aaa" which should become " <html><head><head><body>aaa"
  214. # [11:35] <annevk> i hope you're still allowed to do incremental rendering?
  215. # [11:35] <annevk> by moving parts of text over?
  216. # [11:36] <zcorpan> Hixie: it becomes "<html><head><head><body> aaa" in opera, it seems, and i don't think we've run into any trouble because of that
  217. # [11:38] <Hixie> yeah, spaces around optional tags are messed up by most browsers
  218. # [11:38] <Hixie> i'm trying to fix that
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  220. # [11:38] * Parts: debrapolson (n=chatzill@124-171-128-9.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  221. # [11:38] <annevk> please don't
  222. # [11:39] <annevk> it has already caused us issues
  223. # [11:39] * Joins: marcosc (n=chatzill@124-171-128-9.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  224. # [11:39] <Hixie> i'm not specifying something that screws up the round tripping that badly
  225. # [11:40] <annevk> guess we implement html5-delta then :p
  226. # [11:40] <Hixie> i don't see why it should break things if we do it right
  227. # [11:41] <annevk> it was something about expecting documentElement.firstChild to be <head>
  228. # [11:41] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  229. # [11:41] <zcorpan> yeah, not ignoring whitespace before head broke pages
  230. # [11:41] <Hixie> yeah well oepra's parsing of <head> is so fucked up as it is that that wouldn't work anyway :-P
  231. # [11:41] <annevk> dude, we fixed that
  232. # [11:41] <Hixie> i'll believe that when i see it :-P
  233. # [11:42] <zcorpan> what's fucked up?
  234. # [11:42] <Hixie> i filed the bug years ago, it was only once i forced hte issue that acid3 that i saw any movement there at all
  235. # [11:42] <Hixie> i'm not at all convinced that it's been compltely fixed
  236. # [11:42] <zcorpan> i think we don't get a head for frameset documents, but that's all i know
  237. # [11:43] <zcorpan> (i.e. frameset documents without an explicit head)
  238. # [11:43] <Hixie> hmm, whatever solution we come up with for "x<table> x</table>" can also work for "x</body> </html> x"
  239. # [11:44] <zcorpan> i'd like the latter to be solved by ignoring </body> and </html>, but then i don't care about roundtripping so much
  240. # [11:44] <zcorpan> at least not roundtripping or insignificant whitespace
  241. # [11:44] <annevk> Hixie, http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/ :)
  242. # [11:44] <zcorpan> and placemenet of comments
  243. # [11:45] <Hixie> well, not roundtripping spaces there basically means that you can't put spaces after the </body>.
  244. # [11:45] <zcorpan> oh noes :)
  245. # [11:45] <Hixie> as in, the syntax is a lie if we say you can have spaces after </body>
  246. # [11:46] <Hixie> and i think that's dumb :-)
  247. # [11:46] <Hixie> annevk: the last opera build i tried failed to connect to the network half the time, and the one before that crashed on startup :-)
  248. # [11:46] <Hixie> not to mention that opera on mac looks ugly as hell :-P
  249. # [11:54] * Quits: MacDome (n=eric@c-69-181-78-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  250. # [11:55] <Hixie> jeez this week is going to be insane
  251. # [11:55] <Hixie> so many meetings
  252. # [11:55] <Hixie> ok bed time
  253. # [11:55] <Hixie> nn
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  257. # [12:23] * hsivonen congratulates self for writing the spec log to bugzilla script anyway
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  261. # [12:26] <annevk> Hixie, just keep trying... anyway, e-mailed the nested forms issue
  262. # [12:27] <hsivonen> has anyone tested if TIS-620 needs to become an alias for Windows-874?
  263. # [12:39] * Joins: Philip` (n=philip@zaynar.demon.co.uk)
  264. # [12:40] <Philip`> hsivonen: I see 39 pages (out of 125K) that use charset=tis-620, if that's what you mean
  265. # [12:41] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  266. # [12:45] <hsivonen> Philip`: I mean: do browser implement tis-620 as an alias of Windows-874?
  267. # [12:45] <Philip`> Ah, okay
  268. # [12:47] * Philip` sees that the spec diffs don't provide enough context to actually be useful
  269. # [12:51] <annevk> how much do you want?
  270. # [12:53] <Philip`> Potentially a quite large number of lines
  271. # [12:53] <Philip`> which would be inconvenient in the more common cases, which isn't good
  272. # [12:53] <annevk> maybe a hidden parameter context ?
  273. # [12:53] <annevk> so you could mangle the URI if you need more
  274. # [12:54] <Philip`> It'd be nice if instead of "@@ -37190,21 +37190,22 @@ function receiver(e) {" it showed something useful like the most recent parent node id attribute but that's probably hard :-)
  275. # [12:54] <annevk> yes
  276. # [12:55] <annevk> note that most IDs are auto-generated and those are not shown in web-apps-tracker
  277. # [12:55] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  278. # [12:55] * Quits: Philip`_ (n=philip@zaynar.demon.co.uk) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  279. # [13:00] <MikeSmith> Philip` - please forward that auto-responder message to me at mike@w3.org
  280. # [13:01] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Sent
  281. # [13:01] <MikeSmith> thanks
  282. # [13:01] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@58.157.21.205) ("Less talk, more pimp walk.")
  283. # [13:01] <Philip`> Hixie: r1305 ("This change does not change the black box behaviour of the spec") does appear to change the behaviour of the spec
  284. # [13:01] <Philip`> (unless I've made a mistake)
  285. # [13:02] <Philip`> e.g. with the input <!doctype! system""?
  286. # [13:02] <Philip`> Expected: [u'ParseError', u'ParseError', u'ParseError', [u'DOCTYPE', u'!', None, u'', False]]
  287. # [13:02] <Philip`> Got: [u'ParseError', u'ParseError', u'ParseError', [u'DOCTYPE', u'!', None, u'', True]]
  288. # [13:02] <Philip`> where 'Expected' is what my implementation used to give
  289. # [13:03] <annevk> are you sure that's not the result of 1306?
  290. # [13:04] <Philip`> Oh, good point - it is
  291. # [13:04] <Philip`> because I couldn't read the r1305 diff properly, so I was referring to the spec too and got them mixed up :-p
  292. # [13:04] <Philip`> Hixie: Please ignore me :-)
  293. # [13:18] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@58.157.21.205)
  294. # [13:18] <annevk> Hixie, 'The "before htmlhtml root element node, which is then added to the stack.' misses a space
  295. # [13:24] <annevk> in "before head insertion mode" are the second-to-last and last equal?
  296. # [13:25] <annevk> also, the first in the "before head insertion mode" should also be grouped with those
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  320. # [17:42] <gsnedders> hsivonen: I meant U+FEFF functioning as a BOM
  321. # [17:43] <hsivonen> gsnedders: ok. then I think I misunderstood something
  322. # [17:43] * hsivonen is bitten by the Python variable visibility rules again :-(
  323. # [17:45] * Philip` thinks the visibility thing is an oddly inelegant part of the language
  324. # [17:58] * gsnedders thinks the ambiguous amperstand is confusing
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  327. # [18:04] * Philip` unexpectedly realises that "Prince" sounds like "prints", and that that possibly wasn't a coincidence in the software name
  328. # [18:05] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  329. # [18:06] <hsivonen> annevk: would a stack of form pointers work for the nested form case or is the issue more complex?
  330. # [18:07] <annevk> did you see my e-mail?
  331. # [18:08] <annevk> you basically want some kind of scoping where </form> can't get through
  332. # [18:08] <annevk> and you probably don't want to set the form pointer to null either
  333. # [18:08] <hsivonen> annevk: I saw the email. is scope a form pointer stack or something else?
  334. # [18:08] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-67-160-251-228.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  335. # [18:08] <annevk> <form><div></form><input></div></form> the <input> is still associated with the form
  336. # [18:09] <hsivonen> eww.
  337. # [18:09] <annevk> hsivonen, it's a block level element
  338. # [18:09] <Philip`> In <form><div><form><input>..., which form is the input associated with?
  339. # [18:09] <annevk> <center>, <blockquote>, <h1> - <h6>, <div>, etc.
  340. # [18:09] <annevk> Philip`, the second <form> gets ignored because the form pointer is already associated with something
  341. # [18:12] <annevk> Philip`, are you revising tests for all HTML5 spec changes?
  342. # [18:13] <hsivonen> more cases where legacy encoding labels are de facto aliases for newer encodings keep creeping out of the woodwork
  343. # [18:14] <annevk> i saw that in #webkit and asked him to mail whatwg@whatwg.org, i'm glad he did :)
  344. # [18:14] <Philip`> annevk: Only for the tokeniser
  345. # [18:15] <Philip`> (and I can't guarantee I haven't missed any changes)
  346. # [18:16] <annevk> hopefully enough fresh implementations keep coming to sort out all the mistakes...
  347. # [18:16] <annevk> or test contributions for that matter
  348. # [18:17] <hsivonen> aside: great Python on JVM news: http://fwierzbicki.blogspot.com/2008/02/jythons-future-looking-sunny.html
  349. # [18:17] <Philip`> I've been updating the Python html5lib to follow the spec, but gave up on the Ruby one after finding that it already had some non-trivial bugs (plus a trivial bug that hid all the others)
  350. # [18:18] <Philip`> Well, at least it had one non-trivial bug
  351. # [18:18] <Philip`> and maybe it was actually trivial, but I didn't try looking because I worried it might not be
  352. # [18:19] <annevk> did you leave the bug exposed?
  353. # [18:19] <annevk> if you did someone else will prolly fix it
  354. # [18:19] <Philip`> (this being the <x y="&notit"> case or something like that)
  355. # [18:19] <Philip`> annevk: Yes, it'll fail if someone runs the tokeniser tests
  356. # [18:19] <annevk> ah, that was annoying to fix on the python side too...
  357. # [18:20] <annevk> and the python side was actually hiding some bugs there too, i remember, hmm
  358. # [18:20] <annevk> since ruby was a port, i guess that's what went wrong...
  359. # [18:20] <Philip`> It seems easy to handle all the entities just with a regexp
  360. # [18:20] <Philip`> (plus another regexp for entities in attributes)
  361. # [18:21] <Philip`> though that's not so good if your input is a stream rather than a string
  362. # [18:23] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.180)
  363. # [20:14] * Disconnected
  364. # [20:14] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  365. # [20:14] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  366. # [20:14] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  367. # [20:14] * Set by gsnedders on Tue Dec 18 21:41:19
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  370. # [20:27] <Philip`> hsivonen_: The obvious question is, what were fmt=0 up to fmt=5?
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  379. # [20:57] * Joins: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober)
  380. # [20:58] <Hixie> Krzysztof Żelechowski's e-mails read like poetry
  381. # [20:59] <Hixie> or haikus
  382. # [20:59] <Hixie> e.g.:
  383. # [20:59] <Hixie> ---
  384. # [20:59] <Hixie> I am not sure I understand you correctly
  385. # [20:59] <Hixie> but if this introduces the ability
  386. # [20:59] <Hixie> to make the user agent
  387. # [20:59] <Hixie> report a different URL than the effective target,
  388. # [20:59] <gsnedders> I should try sending an email to public-html or whatwg that's a pantoum sometime, just to see if someone notices
  389. # [20:59] <Hixie> it is going to be a sweet candy for phishers.
  390. # [20:59] <Hixie> (Newer browsers made this effect unavailable to scripts).
  391. # [20:59] <Hixie> ---
  392. # [20:59] <gsnedders> actually, a pantoum is too obvious. too much repetition.
  393. # [20:59] <gsnedders> Maybe a sonnet?
  394. # [21:15] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
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  398. # [21:35] <annevk> gsnedders, it sets it from missing to the empty string...
  399. # [21:35] <gsnedders> annevk: where?
  400. # [21:35] <annevk> gsnedders, if you don't see that you're reading too much into it
  401. # [21:35] <annevk> gsnedders, I quoted those bits in my e-mail...
  402. # [21:35] <gsnedders> I searched the entire spec for "missing"
  403. # [21:35] <annevk> missing is not mentioned again
  404. # [21:36] <annevk> it does not need to be
  405. # [21:36] <gsnedders> annevk: I'm an asshole, per markp's definition. what do you expect? :P
  406. # [21:37] <gsnedders> annevk: if it is marked as missing, how does it not need to be marked as not missing?
  407. # [21:37] * annevk shrugs
  408. # [21:37] <gsnedders> From what I can see in the spec, it is marked as missing, and is never marked as _not_ missing
  409. # [21:38] <gsnedders> it needs to be set in the "Before DOCTYPE public identifier state" and the "Before DOCTYPE system identifier state"
  410. # [21:43] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
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  412. # [22:01] <annevk> "public identifier, and system identifier must be marked as missing (which is a distinct state from the empty string)"
  413. # [22:02] <annevk> then it says "Set the DOCTYPE token's system identifier to the empty string"
  414. # [22:02] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  417. # [22:27] <Philip`> Hmm, ICU4J's gb2312 seems to act identically to iso-8859-1
  418. # [22:27] <Philip`> (gb2312-1980 works like it should, though)
  419. # [22:29] <annevk> i think i'll add window.scroll/scrollTo/scrollBy to CSSOM View
  420. # [22:30] <Philip`> Oops, I'm wrong
  421. # [22:32] <Philip`> gb2312 does seem to work, but values outside the special range (about 0xA0-0xFF) are treated like in iso-8859-1
  422. # [22:33] <Philip`> and gb2312-1980 is something totally different and not ASCII compatible
  423. # [22:34] <annevk> after all, it has scroll*
  424. # [22:36] <Hixie> ok so i parsed over 6 billion files with the parser change to the insertion mode thing (testing that it never hit a table-related element) and it didn't crash
  425. # [22:37] <Hixie> so i figure it's safe
  426. # [22:39] <gsnedders> annevk: that to me doesn't mean actually changing the marker
  427. # [22:40] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  428. # [22:41] <Philip`> Exception in thread "pool-1-thread-1201" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: Could not initialize class nu.validator.htmlparser.impl.EncodingInfo
  429. # [22:41] <Philip`> Hmm...
  430. # [22:42] <hsivonen_> Philip`: did you update ICU4J without updating the parser, too?
  431. # [22:42] <Philip`> I'm not sure what version of the parser I'm using
  432. # [22:42] <hsivonen_> Philip`: the new ICU4J has a b0rked UTF-7 decoder that crashes the old EncodingInfo
  433. # [22:42] <Philip`> so that's quite possible
  434. # [22:43] <hsivonen_> or, rather, EncodingInfo crashes the UTF-7 decoder
  435. # [22:44] <annevk> gsnedders, there's no marker, there's just states
  436. # [22:44] <Philip`> Things work better when I use a more recently compiled version of the parser - thanks :-)
  437. # [22:45] <gsnedders> annevk: "marked as missing" — a marker.
  438. # [22:46] <annevk> "must be marked as missing (which is a distinct state from the empty string)" -- a state
  439. # [22:46] <annevk> ...
  440. # [22:46] * annevk -> back to cssom-view
  441. # [22:46] <gsnedders> so the marker is a state. ergh.
  442. # [22:48] <Philip`> I see reported encoding errors on 1.5% of pages with reported encodings
  443. # [22:49] <Philip`> (counting things like charset=ISO-8559-1 as an error)
  444. # [22:49] <Philip`> (but unknown charsets are only about a quarter of the errors)
  445. # [22:51] <Philip`> (18% of gb2312 pages have errors)
  446. # [22:55] <Philip`> http://www.narkasabasi.com/v2/ <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-9"> <meta http-equiv="content-Type" content="text/html; charset=windows-1254" /> <meta http-equiv="content-type" content-type content="text/html"; charset= "x-mac-turkish">
  447. # [22:55] <Philip`> (Urgh - s/ /\n/)
  448. # [22:55] <Philip`> Looks like they couldn't quite make their mind up
  449. # [22:57] <Philip`> <meta content="http://schemas.microsoft.com/intellisense/ie5" name="vs_targetSchema" charset="utf-8"> - that's not good if it gets incorrcetly interpreted as the page's charset
  450. # [22:58] * jgraham wonders why dave hodder is asking the same question on public-html-comments that I already answered on the whatwg list
  451. # [22:58] <Philip`> http://jellybelly.com/International/Japanese/home.html is an interesting test case
  452. # [22:58] <Philip`> (Opera 9.2 fails)
  453. # [22:59] <Philip`> (Opera 9.5 fails too, though it gets the layout correct)
  454. # [22:59] <SadEagle> Philip`: check out the JS in there, too
  455. # [22:59] <annevk> jgraham, I think he's asking for a pointer to that e-mail again, he apparently forgot :)
  456. # [22:59] <Philip`> (Safari 3 fails too)
  457. # [23:00] * jgraham goes to answer again
  458. # [23:00] <Philip`> SadEagle: What's unusual about the JS?
  459. # [23:01] <SadEagle> nothing unusual --- but it's sniffing for netscape >= 3, ie >= 4
  460. # [23:02] <Philip`> Ah
  461. # [23:03] <Philip`> That should degrade gracefully in other browsers, so it's not much of a problem :-)
  462. # [23:06] <annevk> oh, Acid3 is announced
  463. # [23:08] * Philip` sees 88582 pages with <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=...">, 25175 with an HTTP Content-Type: text/html; charset=..., and 171 with <meta charset="...">
  464. # [23:08] <Philip`> (out of 130K)
  465. # [23:09] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  466. # [23:09] <annevk> how many pages with content="" and without a valid value for http-equiv="" ?
  467. # [23:09] <Philip`> What's a "valid value"?
  468. # [23:10] <annevk> content-type ascii case-insensitive
  469. # [23:10] <Philip`> What about all the other http-equiv values?
  470. # [23:10] <annevk> where content contains the word charset
  471. # [23:11] <annevk> content=""*
  472. # [23:11] <Philip`> Hmm, I suppose I could look for that
  473. # [23:12] <Philip`> but I won't bother doing that now, since it takes 20 minutes to run
  474. # [23:12] * Joins: eseidel_ (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-02c327ef376cdca3)
  475. # [23:12] <annevk> k
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  479. # [23:29] <SadEagle> Philip`: LOL, just stumbled on a webpage with 2 encoding headers, neither of which is right
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  482. # Session Close: Tue Mar 04 00:00:00 2008

The end :)