/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-03-06 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Thu Mar 06 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <annevk> roc, actually, seems to be https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=407839
  4. # [00:00] * annevk likes gmail
  5. # [00:00] <Hixie_> why on earth does IE8 fail acid2 on acidtests.org
  6. # [00:00] <roc> yeah just found it thanks
  7. # [00:01] <gsnedders> Hixie_: "The test doesn't work from the other domains you listed because the call for the eyes is cross domain; IE8 currently doesn't trust that cross domain call. We're working through whether we can change that for beta 2 safely."
  8. # [00:01] <roc> it is blocking
  9. # [00:01] <annevk> Hixie_, cross-site request to damowmow.com
  10. # [00:01] <Hixie_> ?
  11. # [00:01] <Hixie_> oh, it's a bug
  12. # [00:01] <Hixie_> i see
  13. # [00:01] <Hixie_> fails on the wasp too, for me
  14. # [00:02] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.180)
  15. # [00:02] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  16. # [00:02] <Hixie_> oh, passes if i use www.webstandards.org instead of webstandards.org
  17. # [00:02] <annevk> makes sense
  18. # [00:02] <annevk> it's a full link
  19. # [00:02] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  20. # [00:03] <Hixie_> why would they show the iframe if it fails due to cross-domain
  21. # [00:03] <Hixie_> that's dumb
  22. # [00:03] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.201) (Nick collision from services.)
  23. # [00:03] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  24. # [00:05] <Hixie_> holy shit it renders my portal's display:table stuff correctly
  25. # [00:05] <Hixie_> it's ridiculously slow at painting
  26. # [00:08] <gsnedders> it's totally unoptimised, apparently
  27. # [00:09] <Hixie_> wow they implement the selector api
  28. # [00:09] <Philip`> It has some problems with the CSS on http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/tests/
  29. # [00:10] <Philip`> and the canvas emulation doesn't render - it just leaves empty spaces
  30. # [00:11] <eseidel> it does kinda feel like they just posted a nightly build
  31. # [00:11] <eseidel> but that's what beta's often feel like
  32. # [00:11] <Hixie_> yeah
  33. # [00:11] <Hixie_> that's what it often _is_
  34. # [00:12] <Philip`> and the popup messages on http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/tests/results.html don't work
  35. # [00:12] <othermaciej> it sounds like impressive progress
  36. # [00:12] * Quits: kingryan (n=ryan@dsl092-219-050.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  37. # [00:12] <othermaciej> (haven't tried it to see though)
  38. # [00:12] <othermaciej> I wonder if they will try to reconcile XDR with XXX
  39. # [00:12] <othermaciej> it is cool that they implemented some HTML5 stuff
  40. # [00:13] <othermaciej> including the storage stuff that chris at one point said was out of scope, but that's water under the bridge
  41. # [00:13] <Philip`> and the button text alignment is wrong on http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/tests/reportgen.html?100,0
  42. # [00:13] <annevk> they did implement it with deviations
  43. # [00:13] * Philip` wonders if he has any page that works correctly
  44. # [00:13] <annevk> DOM Storage in IE8 is asyn
  45. # [00:14] <Hixie_> wow apparently they fixed getAttribute()
  46. # [00:14] <annevk> (and it's also based on the old model)
  47. # [00:14] <Hixie_> that probably helped them get several points on acid3
  48. # [00:14] * Quits: phsiao (n=shawn@nat/ibm/x-0e61ce689dd2f1fc)
  49. # [00:15] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-142-194-45.range86-142.btcentralplus.com) ("Partying in teh intarwebs")
  50. # [00:15] * Joins: ianloic (i=yakk@glub.dreamhostps.com)
  51. # [00:16] * Quits: met_ (n=Hassman@r5bx220.net.upc.cz) ("Chemists never die, they just stop reacting.")
  52. # [00:17] <Hixie_> hm, sounds like they did the absolute minimum to pass acid2 as far as <object> goes
  53. # [00:18] <jruderman> http://www.flickr.com/photos/albill/2313174452/ makes it look like they're still getting 17/100 on acid3
  54. # [00:18] <jruderman> which seems odd
  55. # [00:18] <Hixie_> i just tried it and got 10
  56. # [00:18] <Hixie_> so
  57. # [00:18] <Hixie_> who knows
  58. # [00:18] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/ie8-acid3.png
  59. # [00:18] <Hixie_> ie7 used to get 12, iirc
  60. # [00:18] <jruderman> oh
  61. # [00:18] <Philip`> after waiting quite a few seconds after it got stuck at around 10
  62. # [00:19] <Hixie_> ah
  63. # [00:19] <Hixie_> interesting
  64. # [00:19] <jruderman> the screenshots on https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/wiki/Acid3 are painful to read :P
  65. # [00:20] <Hixie_> oh god, why did they add more namespace crap to text/html
  66. # [00:20] <jruderman> "This website wants to run the following add-on: 'MSXML 3.0 SP9' from 'Microsoft Corporation'. If you trust the website..."
  67. # [00:20] <jruderman> wtf
  68. # [00:20] <jruderman> hixie: they couldn't make *all* their changes be towards standards compliance, could they?
  69. # [00:20] <Hixie_> haha
  70. # [00:21] <Hixie_> they had to explicitly NOT support the xhtml namespace
  71. # [00:21] <Hixie_> that's funny
  72. # [00:21] <Hixie_> i wonder how many pages they break due to this "namespace" support
  73. # [00:21] <jruderman> what.
  74. # [00:21] <Hixie_> aww, they got around it by not supporting xmlns="" on existing html elements
  75. # [00:23] <jruderman> they make web sites specify which SVG handler they hope you have installed? weird
  76. # [00:23] <jruderman> oh, that's ie5
  77. # [00:26] <jruderman> do they support XHTML parsing too, or only this special text/html behavior?
  78. # [00:26] <Hixie_> good god
  79. # [00:27] <Hixie_> they couldn't even implement html5 without doing something other than what the spec said
  80. # [00:27] <Philip`> http://intertwingly.net/blog/2008/03/05/Improved-Namespace-Support#c1204755301
  81. # [00:27] <Philip`> (about HTML namespaces)
  82. # [00:28] <Hixie_> indeed there's a blatent lie in this doc, it says that their stuff is compliant with html5 immediately after describing two methods and an event that have never been in the spec
  83. # [00:31] <annevk> it surprises me that they haven't said a single thing about it
  84. # [00:31] <annevk> on the list
  85. # [00:32] <othermaciej> Hixie_: which things does that apply to?
  86. # [00:33] <Hixie_> DOM storage
  87. # [00:34] <annevk> on globalStorage they have a method .x (forgot the name), a method .commit(), and a method .clear()
  88. # [00:34] <annevk> to do the exact opposite of what the API was intended for
  89. # [00:34] <ianloic> hey, I'm trying to describe a bunch of the patterns in DOM APIs so can model other APIs after it
  90. # [00:35] <ianloic> is the difference between a List type and a Collection type that collections are mutable and lists are immutable
  91. # [00:35] <ianloic> ?
  92. # [00:35] <Hixie_> on the plus side they're still using .globalStorage
  93. # [00:35] <Hixie_> so
  94. # [00:35] <Hixie_> no biggie
  95. # [00:36] <Hixie_> ianloic: no
  96. # [00:36] <Hixie_> ianloic: indeed i'm not really sure what the difference is
  97. # [00:36] <Hixie_> ianloic: in general i would say the DOM is highly inconsistent and any patterns are more luck than design
  98. # [00:36] <Hixie_> ianloic: and so i wouldn't use it as a good example of anything
  99. # [00:36] <Hixie_> Philip`: "<meta http-equiv="content-style-type" content="text/css; charset=iso-8859-1" />" is not legit
  100. # [00:37] <Hixie_> Philip`: so i'm happy to not worry about that
  101. # [00:37] <Philip`> Hixie_: Oh
  102. # [00:37] <Philip`> What's wrong with it?
  103. # [00:37] <Hixie_> there's no byte stream, the attributes are already in unicode by the time the content-style-type matters
  104. # [00:38] <ianloic> Hixie_, well, I'm trying to make an API that we're exposing from our browser (songbird) into web pages more web-ish - trying to do things similarly to the DOM (when it gets it right) is my best guess of a good strateg
  105. # [00:38] <ianloic> y
  106. # [00:38] <ianloic> Hixie_, but thanks for the List/Collection info - I'll go with "choose one and be consistent" :)
  107. # [00:38] <Hixie_> i recommend making a good attempt at making the API consistent, and then posting it to a list like public-webapi or the whatwg implementor's list and asking for feedback
  108. # [00:39] <othermaciej> ianloic: I'm not sure doing things "similar to the DOM" makes for good API
  109. # [00:39] <ianloic> othermaciej, well, I'd like to make things recognizable to web developers and accessible from js libraries
  110. # [00:40] <ianloic> othermaciej, right now we're exposing a mozilla-like API to web pages which is way worse
  111. # [00:40] <ianloic> Hixie_, I'll definitely be seeking feedback from the wider community - we need to get this stuff right (ish)
  112. # [00:40] <gavin_> mozilla-like?
  113. # [00:41] <othermaciej> ianloic: I guess what I'm saying is this
  114. # [00:42] <othermaciej> if you expose something that's not actually a document using a DOM tree, DOM events, and DOM-style live connections, it's likely to be an awkward fit
  115. # [00:42] <ianloic> gavin_, we have interfaces that look like nsIObserver, not dom even listeners
  116. # [00:42] <othermaciej> I would say design to your domain and align with DOM where it makes sense
  117. # [00:42] <othermaciej> I do think events can be used in a pretty general way
  118. # [00:42] <ianloic> othermaciej, yeah - I don't want to force too much of it directly into the DOM model
  119. # [00:42] <othermaciej> so being an EventTarget is a good way to align
  120. # [00:42] <Hixie_> Philip`: it would be interesting to see the distribution of how many bytes it takes for the encoding detector to make a decision, instead of stopping it at 512 or 1024.
  121. # [00:43] <othermaciej> I think the live collections are both confusing and hard to implement well
  122. # [00:43] <Hixie_> Philip`: then we could see if there's a point at which there is a sharp reduction in benefit
  123. # [00:43] <ianloic> othermaciej, but I look at the way that DOM Storage integrates as a decent model
  124. # [00:43] <Hixie_> Philip`: (great study btw)
  125. # [00:44] <ianloic> othermaciej, I don't know that they're confusing for developers, but they're a pain to implement
  126. # [00:45] <othermaciej> I don't even know what kinda collections you're working with necessarily (I assume something musical if it's songbird)
  127. # [00:46] <ianloic> othermaciej, libraries & playlists
  128. # [00:46] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@guest-228.mountainview.mozilla.com) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  129. # [00:46] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  130. # [00:47] <othermaciej> os yeah that seems like a case where you may want to query as well as iterate
  131. # [00:48] * ianloic nods.
  132. # [00:48] <othermaciej> s/os/so/
  133. # [00:51] <Philip`> Hixie_: Has the encoding detector changed since June 2007?
  134. # [00:51] <Philip`> (since apparently that's when the implementation I used is from)
  135. # [00:52] <Hixie_> yes, i changed parts of it yesterday
  136. # [00:52] <Philip`> Oh, okay
  137. # [00:52] <Hixie_> er
  138. # [00:52] <Hixie_> i mean
  139. # [00:52] <Hixie_> over the past couple of weeks
  140. # [00:52] <Hixie_> not yesterday
  141. # [00:52] <Hixie_> dunno where that came from
  142. # [00:52] <annevk> it's significantly different now
  143. # [00:52] * Philip` will try implementing it some time so he can detect encodings more up-to-datedly
  144. # [00:53] <annevk> and non-deterministic :(
  145. # [00:53] <Hixie_> how so?
  146. # [00:54] <annevk> last I checked scripts could be executed twice depending on how much you did before parsing
  147. # [00:54] <takkaria> Hixie_: are there any more changes in the pipeline for the tokenizer, or is it pretty much done now?
  148. # [00:55] <Hixie_> annevk: oh, that's not the encoding detector though, that's just the whole mechanism
  149. # [00:55] <Hixie_> but yes
  150. # [00:55] <Hixie_> takkaria: depends what people find
  151. # [00:55] <annevk> Hixie_, I don't like that part
  152. # [00:55] <Hixie_> annevk: neither do i
  153. # [00:55] <Hixie_> annevk: if you have a better proposal... :-)
  154. # [00:55] * annevk wants clear yes/no answers
  155. # [00:55] <annevk> right...
  156. # [00:55] * Joins: webben (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com)
  157. # [01:00] <jgraham> Hixie_: Re: outlines; I think the bit that starts "Otherwise, if the element being entered has a rank equal to or greater than the heading of the current section" has sub-optimal behavior for cases like <h1><h2><h3><h2> (the final h2 will be a sibling of the h1 not the first h2)
  158. # [01:01] <Hixie_> uh yes, that's a bug
  159. # [01:01] <Hixie_> send mail
  160. # [01:02] <jgraham> OK, just checking I'm not too tired to think straight :)
  161. # [01:03] <annevk> is "greater rank" a header with a number closer to zero or further away from zero?
  162. # [01:04] <jgraham> I believe greater rank is closer to 0
  163. # [01:05] <jgraham> "The h1 element is said to have the highest rank, the h6 element has the lowest rank"
  164. # [01:08] <annevk> no html5lib flamewar yet
  165. # [01:08] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.180) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  166. # [01:09] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.180)
  167. # [01:12] <jgraham> annevk?
  168. # [01:14] <Hixie_> oh blimey, contentEditable feedback
  169. # [01:14] <Hixie_> 116 e-mails of it
  170. # [01:14] * Hixie_ trembles
  171. # [01:14] * Hixie_ is now known as Hixie
  172. # [01:16] * weinig is now known as weinig_mcculloug
  173. # [01:20] * Joins: tndH_ (n=Rob@adsl-83-100-158-77.karoo.KCOM.COM)
  174. # [01:20] * Quits: tndH (i=Rob@87.102.22.136) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  175. # [01:20] * tndH_ is now known as tndH
  176. # [01:21] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@58.157.21.205) ("Less talk, more pimp walk.")
  177. # [01:21] * Quits: billmason (n=billmaso@ip85.unival.com) (".")
  178. # [01:22] <annevk> jgraham, over the changes I made
  179. # [01:24] * Parts: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  180. # [01:25] <jgraham> Hixie: OK, mail sent. It may tun out to be inaccurate, I need more sleep.
  181. # [01:25] <jgraham> annevk: I didn' notice anything objectionable. I haven't checked if you broke anything, mind
  182. # [01:25] <annevk> jgraham, btw, if you notice stuff I missed please let me know
  183. # [01:26] <annevk> I did run the tests and made sure they passed
  184. # [01:28] <takkaria> hm, with the introduction of the .at TLD, you can do silly things like "takkaria.@takkaria.at"
  185. # [01:30] <jgraham> annevk: Some of the non-parser tests seem to be failing (lxml and the sanitizer)
  186. # [01:30] <jgraham> s/lxml/liberal xml/
  187. # [01:31] * jgraham -> bed
  188. # [01:31] <annevk> yeah, didn't check those
  189. # [01:31] <jgraham> annevk: You should send mail to the list saying they fail, at least
  190. # [01:31] <annevk> i did e-mail the list
  191. # [01:31] <annevk> saying I only checked the Python parser
  192. # [01:32] <annevk> if there's nothing there tomorrow i'll mention the rest too
  193. # [01:32] <annevk> (as it's already implicitly there...)
  194. # [01:33] <jgraham> annevk: I just sent mail
  195. # [01:34] * Quits: tndH (n=Rob@adsl-83-100-158-77.karoo.KCOM.COM) ("ChatZilla 0.9.81-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508]")
  196. # [01:35] <annevk> k
  197. # [01:36] * annevk -> bed
  198. # [01:36] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  199. # [01:40] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@12.14.132.142)
  200. # [01:43] * Joins: kingryan (n=ryan@dsl092-002-056.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  201. # [02:11] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@12.14.132.142) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  202. # [02:12] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.255.105.237)
  203. # [02:13] * Quits: weinig_mcculloug (n=weinig@17.203.15.180) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  204. # [02:13] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@17.203.15.180)
  205. # [02:14] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@12.14.132.142)
  206. # [02:17] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-95f262154b5e2a15)
  207. # [02:18] * Quits: kingryan (n=ryan@dsl092-002-056.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  208. # [02:24] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  209. # [02:27] * Joins: tantek__ (n=tantek@12.14.132.109)
  210. # [02:28] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.255.105.237) (Connection timed out)
  211. # [02:29] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.255.105.237)
  212. # [02:32] * Joins: weinig__ (n=weinig@17.203.15.180)
  213. # [02:32] * Quits: weinig_ (n=weinig@17.203.15.180) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  214. # [02:35] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.203.15.201)
  215. # [02:36] * Quits: ianloic (i=yakk@glub.dreamhostps.com) ("Terminated with extreme prejudice - dircproxy 1.2.0")
  216. # [02:42] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@12.14.132.142) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  217. # [02:48] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.255.105.237) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  218. # [02:51] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.111.222) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  219. # [03:10] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@12.14.132.109)
  220. # [03:11] * Quits: tantek__ (n=tantek@12.14.132.109) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  221. # [03:17] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  222. # [03:22] * Joins: tantek__ (n=tantek@12.14.132.109)
  223. # [03:22] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@12.14.132.109) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  224. # [03:29] * Quits: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.203.15.201)
  225. # [03:31] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  226. # [03:31] * Joins: xkcd (i=xkcd@colobus.isomerica.net)
  227. # [03:33] * Joins: jwalden (n=waldo@STRATTON-SIXTY.MIT.EDU)
  228. # [03:34] * Quits: webben (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  229. # [03:43] <jwalden> zounds
  230. # [03:43] <jwalden> "we recommend that you switch to the Internet Explorer 8 Cross Document Messaging feature that is based on Section 6.4 of the HTML 5.0 specification."
  231. # [03:43] <jwalden> WIN
  232. # [03:44] <Hixie> hm?
  233. # [03:45] <jwalden> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/949787
  234. # [03:46] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@12.14.132.109)
  235. # [03:46] <Hixie> jwalden: ah yes.
  236. # [03:47] <Hixie> has anyone found any docs on how they implemented that? (their implementation of DOM storage is quite... embrace-and-extendy.)
  237. # [03:47] * Quits: tantek__ (n=tantek@12.14.132.109) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  238. # [03:47] <jwalden> there's a note about draft status; I'm betting they have the old interface implemented
  239. # [03:50] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@12.14.132.109) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  240. # [03:51] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@12.14.132.109)
  241. # [04:01] <roc> someone should raise a stink about how they've extended storage without giving any feedback (if that's true)
  242. # [04:02] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@12.14.132.109)
  243. # [04:13] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.255.105.237)
  244. # [04:13] * Quits: weinig__ (n=weinig@17.203.15.180) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  245. # [04:14] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@17.203.15.180)
  246. # [04:29] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.255.105.237) (Connection timed out)
  247. # [04:36] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  248. # [04:44] * Joins: roc_ (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  249. # [04:44] * Quits: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  250. # [04:44] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  251. # [04:45] * Quits: weinig_ (n=weinig@17.203.15.180) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  252. # [04:45] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.180)
  253. # [04:45] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  254. # [04:49] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  255. # [04:49] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  256. # [04:49] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  257. # [04:50] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  258. # [04:56] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.180) (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  259. # [04:56] * Quits: xkcd (i=xkcd@colobus.isomerica.net) (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  260. # [04:56] * Quits: Philip` (n=philip@zaynar.demon.co.uk) (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  261. # [04:56] * Quits: Lfe (n=lfe@bergstroem.nu) (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  262. # [04:56] * Quits: bzed (n=bzed@devel.recluse.de) (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  263. # [04:56] * Quits: bradeeoh (n=bradeeoh@web7.webfaction.com) (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  264. # [04:56] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.180)
  265. # [04:56] * Joins: xkcd (i=xkcd@colobus.isomerica.net)
  266. # [04:56] * Joins: Lfe (n=lfe@bergstroem.nu)
  267. # [04:56] * Joins: Philip` (n=philip@zaynar.demon.co.uk)
  268. # [04:56] * Joins: bradeeoh (n=bradeeoh@web7.webfaction.com)
  269. # [04:56] * Joins: bzed (n=bzed@devel.recluse.de)
  270. # [05:07] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  271. # [05:08] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  272. # [05:08] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  273. # [05:09] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  274. # [05:13] * Quits: roc_ (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  275. # [05:21] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  276. # [05:24] * Joins: parcelbrat (n=parcelbr@c-67-185-108-198.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  277. # [05:25] * parcelbrat is now known as jredville
  278. # [05:30] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@12.14.132.227)
  279. # [05:48] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-160-41.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  280. # [05:49] * Quits: SadEagle (n=maksim@cpe-69-202-89-106.twcny.res.rr.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  281. # [05:50] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  282. # [05:58] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.180)
  283. # [06:00] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  284. # [06:02] * Quits: jredville (n=parcelbr@c-67-185-108-198.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
  285. # [06:31] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-67-160-251-228.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  286. # [06:32] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  287. # [06:57] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-160-41.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  288. # [06:58] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-160-41.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  289. # [07:32] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  290. # [07:39] * Quits: peepo (n=Jay@host86-147-236-233.range86-147.btcentralplus.com) ("later")
  291. # [07:41] * Joins: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  292. # [08:34] * weinig is now known as weinig|away
  293. # [08:55] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-67-160-251-228.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  294. # [09:17] * Joins: tndH_ (i=Rob@adsl-83-100-158-77.karoo.KCOM.COM)
  295. # [09:17] * tndH_ is now known as tndH
  296. # [09:23] * Quits: annevk (n=annevk@77.163.243.203) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  297. # [09:23] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@77.163.243.203)
  298. # [09:23] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  299. # [09:41] * bradeeoh is now known as bradee-oh
  300. # [09:48] * Quits: MacDome (n=eric@c-69-181-78-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  301. # [10:00] * Quits: jwalden (n=waldo@STRATTON-SIXTY.MIT.EDU) ("sleepytime")
  302. # [10:05] * Joins: david_ (i=david@bsdguru.net)
  303. # [10:15] <annevk> hi liorean
  304. # [10:16] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  305. # [10:35] * Joins: Camaban (n=adrianle@host81-135-169-203.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  306. # [10:35] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  307. # [10:44] * Joins: jandem (n=jandem@unaffiliated/jandem)
  308. # [10:46] * Quits: wakaba (n=w@180.165.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  309. # [10:49] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  310. # [11:03] <annevk> Hixie, any thoughts on whether it's worth to obsolete DOM Level 2 Views or keep it alive?
  311. # [11:05] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-8b50f4ad19f9ea1b)
  312. # [11:08] <annevk> Philip`, I tested one such gb2312 site you pointed out, <http://www.tkdts.com/>, and it seems that browsers treat it as UTF-8
  313. # [11:09] <Philip`> That has "Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8" so that would make sense
  314. # [11:09] <annevk> as HTTP header?
  315. # [11:10] <Philip`> Yes
  316. # [11:10] <annevk> http://www.jgbr.com.cn/ has the same
  317. # [11:11] <annevk> (also from the 8 remaining pages)
  318. # [11:11] <annevk> http://www.wuxi-accp.com/ too...
  319. # [11:12] <annevk> http://www.liechebuluo.com/ doesn't
  320. # [11:13] <annevk> few others don't have the same
  321. # [11:13] <annevk> no real pattern
  322. # [11:17] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@eM60-254-223-152.pool.emnet.ne.jp)
  323. # [11:18] <hsivonen> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=1254&to=1255
  324. # [11:18] <Philip`> http://www.liechebuluo.com/ in the left column says "» 奥地利�戴姆勒" in Firefox, "» 奥地利?#25140;姆勒" in IE6, so it looks like the page is simply broken
  325. # [11:18] <hsivonen> does that change have an actual conformance checker-relevant change in it?
  326. # [11:18] <hsivonen> what is it?
  327. # [11:18] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: btw, out=gnu now puts the URI in quotes
  328. # [11:19] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - sweet
  329. # [11:19] * MikeSmith wonders if Karl Berry may have updated the GNU coding standards spec yet
  330. # [11:19] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: also, I added an option to use ASCII quotes as requested by Hixie.
  331. # [11:19] <hsivonen> nope
  332. # [11:19] <Hixie> annevk: should probably be merged into whatever does altss and so forth
  333. # [11:19] <Hixie> hsivonen: thanks for that, btw
  334. # [11:19] <hsivonen> asciiquotes=yes
  335. # [11:20] <annevk> Hixie, my idea is to drop the concept of multiple views altogether
  336. # [11:20] <Hixie> greatly appreciated
  337. # [11:20] <annevk> hsivonen, looking for should/must I'd say no
  338. # [11:20] <Hixie> annevk: might want to talk to your engineers first, since opera is the only browser to actually have multiple views :-)
  339. # [11:20] <annevk> Philip`, k
  340. # [11:20] <hsivonen> Hixie: you're welcome
  341. # [11:20] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks
  342. # [11:20] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - I wonder if current Emacs and other apps that have built-in parsing for GNU-format error messages can deal with the quoted filename part as expected
  343. # [11:21] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I have no idea
  344. # [11:21] <annevk> Hixie, I wonder how much of that is still around...
  345. # [11:21] <annevk> Hixie, but yeah, sure
  346. # [11:21] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - what kind of quotes does it output by default? if not ASCII..
  347. # [11:22] <Hixie> annevk: does it cause any harm to have it? i think it makes sense to at least specify the theory there
  348. # [11:22] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: aside: I use URI-level quoting instead of C string quoting for " in URI, so the output is more regexp-friendly than the upcoming GNU spec
  349. # [11:22] <annevk> Hixie, so my main concern was actually who'd define the document attribute, but I guess CSSOM View could do that...
  350. # [11:22] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: be default the quotes in messages are U+201C and U+201D
  351. # [11:22] <MikeSmith> ah
  352. # [11:22] <annevk> Hixie, well, all code is written with a single view in mind, hmm
  353. # [11:23] <Hixie> annevk: *shrug*
  354. # [11:24] <Hixie> annevk: i don't really care either way, but if we drop them we should fix UIEvent too
  355. # [11:24] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - when using out=gnu, maybe "yes" should be the default for asciiquotes
  356. # [11:25] <MikeSmith> so you have to set it to "no" if you actually want U+201C and U+201D
  357. # [11:25] <MikeSmith> in out=gnu mode
  358. # [11:26] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yeah, that would make sense if it only affected quotes. However, it also affects apostrophes in text which in egde cases makes the message technically wrong
  359. # [11:26] <MikeSmith> ah
  360. # [11:26] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: but yeah, I should probably make it the default
  361. # [11:27] <hsivonen> I guess I should make it the default and then make sure that I don't use contractions in the messages, so that I can get rid of the apostrophe thing
  362. # [11:28] <MikeSmith> yeah that might work
  363. # [11:29] <annevk> Hixie, to have .view point to Window all the time?
  364. # [11:29] <MikeSmith> though I wonder if there are some uses of apostrophes in messages that you can't avoid
  365. # [11:29] <Hixie> annevk: to not have .view (since if we only have one view, it'll always point to window)
  366. # [11:30] <annevk> true, but i thought that might break stuff
  367. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - aside: Henry Thompson did a presentation here today about XML pipeline stuff and XML Schema; one thing I learned is that apparently they are adding a mechanism similar to Schematron assertions
  368. # [11:31] <MikeSmith> adding it to the next version of XML Schema
  369. # [11:31] <Hixie> annevk: *shrug*. I don't see much point in removing the multiple views stuff frankly. it doesn't simplify anything really.
  370. # [11:31] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I've heard something vague about that but I have never seen concrete examples of what XSD is adding
  371. # [11:31] <annevk> Hixie, ok
  372. # [11:32] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: is "here" SXSW?
  373. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - nope, here at home in Tokyo. we had a W3C Japan Member meeting today
  374. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> I presented after Henry
  375. # [11:33] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ah
  376. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> and used part of my time, to follow up on some of what he discussed, to show validator.nu and to talk about HTML5lib and also the validator.nu parser
  377. # [11:34] <MikeSmith> Henry had mentioned the use case of people wanting to take "bad HTML" and get into a form that could be processed with an XML toolchain
  378. # [11:35] <annevk> Hixie, so should http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/#windowview be implemented by the default view AbstractView object?
  379. # [11:37] <Hixie> i think "media" on that interface should be on AbstractView, and the rest should be on ScreenView, which would inherit from AbstractView
  380. # [11:37] <Hixie> it would only be implemented by the defaultView if the defaultView is a screen-media view
  381. # [11:37] <Hixie> or projection media, i guess
  382. # [11:38] <Hixie> or possibly visual media
  383. # [11:38] <Hixie> i dunno what the details would be exactly
  384. # [11:38] <Hixie> btw you have a typo in that idl, sroll -> scroll, twice
  385. # [11:38] <annevk> thanks
  386. # [11:38] <annevk> so I guess i'll port AbstractView to that document
  387. # [11:39] <Hixie> makes sense
  388. # [11:39] <Hixie> is this the doc that does the altss stuff btw?
  389. # [11:39] <annevk> one less DOM Level xxx spec hurray
  390. # [11:39] <annevk> Hixie, no, that's in the far bigger CSSOM spec
  391. # [11:39] <Hixie> ah ok
  392. # [11:39] <Hixie> any eta on that? i have a dependency on it from html5
  393. # [11:39] <annevk> any eta on HTML5?
  394. # [11:39] <Hixie> not eta to rec or anything
  395. # [11:40] <Hixie> yeah
  396. # [11:40] <annevk> hehe
  397. # [11:40] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/TIMETABLE
  398. # [11:40] <annevk> the main problem is defining getComputedStyle properly
  399. # [11:40] <Hixie> ah yeah that will be fun i'm sure
  400. # [11:40] <annevk> and I have some issues defining the altcss stuff in a way that it is more about a model rather than attribute values
  401. # [11:41] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-142-194-45.range86-142.btcentralplus.com)
  402. # [11:41] <annevk> but mostly getComputedStyle, serializing and parsing CSS blocks, etc.
  403. # [11:41] <Hixie> k
  404. # [11:41] <Hixie> what kind of issues?
  405. # [11:42] <annevk> one issue is that browsers seem to implement various different CSSStyleDeclaration objects
  406. # [11:43] <annevk> one issue is that getComputedStyle works with CSS 2.0 and not with CSS 2.1
  407. # [11:43] <annevk> so you can't easily re-use the terminology from CSS 2.1, such as "computed style"
  408. # [11:44] <Hixie> oh i meant about the model thing
  409. # [11:45] <annevk> i think that's mostly because it's complicated
  410. # [11:45] <annevk> i managed to make some progress on it though but haven't looked at it for a while
  411. # [11:46] <annevk> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom/#style
  412. # [11:47] <Hixie> k
  413. # [11:47] <Hixie> well no rush
  414. # [11:47] * gsnedders tries to quickly write an email to annevk about XML5 before going to school
  415. # [11:55] <gsnedders> annevk: excuse the likely bad English
  416. # [12:05] <Hixie> hm
  417. # [12:05] <Hixie> how do we prevent people from screwing around with the user selection
  418. # [12:06] * annevk thought that was a lost battle
  419. # [12:06] <Hixie> let me rephrase
  420. # [12:07] <Hixie> how do we allow hypothetical user agents that wish to continue fighting that battle win that battle without breaking pages or being non-conforming
  421. # [12:08] <annevk> let the user use a modifier key?
  422. # [12:11] <Hixie> not very discoverable or intuitive
  423. # [12:11] <Hixie> maybe we could say that user agents may ignore API calls to change the selection if they are made immediately after a user has modified the selection
  424. # [12:11] <annevk> the UA could hint about it I suppose
  425. # [12:12] <annevk> that breaks at least one interesting application
  426. # [12:12] <Hixie> which?
  427. # [12:12] <annevk> guys at q42 made a text editor where they implemented selection that was indenting aware
  428. # [12:13] <Hixie> ncie
  429. # [12:13] <annevk> indeed
  430. # [12:14] <Hixie> anyway bed time
  431. # [12:14] <Hixie> nn
  432. # [12:14] <annevk> g'n
  433. # [12:15] * Joins: hdh (n=hdh@58.187.104.235)
  434. # [12:34] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  435. # [12:35] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@eM60-254-223-152.pool.emnet.ne.jp) ("Less talk, more pimp walk.")
  436. # [13:01] <xkcd> Hixie: Since you're a redditor you may want to drop in to this thread: http://reddit.com/info/6b1hq/comments/
  437. # [13:01] <xkcd> Oh, he's asleep.
  438. # [13:09] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@109.80-202-65.nextgentel.com)
  439. # [13:10] <Philip`> It seems slightly inaccurate to say it's "for security reasons", since the reason is mostly that IE chose to implement <object> very differently to how other browsers do it
  440. # [13:10] * Philip` doesn't know if anything (like HTML5) specifies that IE is wrong
  441. # [13:11] <annevk> HTML5 doesn't say that cross-domain should fail
  442. # [13:12] <zcorpan> ie8 fails acid2 for me when i allow activex, but passes when i disallow activex (on acid2.acidtests.org)
  443. # [13:12] <Philip`> I guess disabling ActiveX makes it show the <object> fallback content
  444. # [13:12] <Philip`> (which is what it ought to do)
  445. # [13:12] <zcorpan> yeah
  446. # [13:13] <annevk> heh, that makes their explanation of making content available pretty bogus
  447. # [13:13] <zcorpan> i get the same result on webstandards.org/acid2
  448. # [13:13] <zcorpan> but perhaps i don't have default settings
  449. # [13:13] <annevk> zcorpan, you need www.webstandards.org
  450. # [13:13] <zcorpan> annevk: ah
  451. # [13:17] * Joins: peepo (n=Jay@host86-147-236-233.range86-147.btcentralplus.com)
  452. # [13:25] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM117-55-70-142.pool.emnet.ne.jp)
  453. # [13:30] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  454. # [13:38] <hsivonen> the S60 Browser crashes on Hixie's timetable...
  455. # [13:39] <zcorpan> hsivonen: pointer to the timetable?
  456. # [13:40] <hsivonen> zcorpan: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/TIMETABLE
  457. # [13:42] <zcorpan> hsivonen: thanks
  458. # [13:44] <hsivonen> gotta love it when svn manages to miswrite its own log format so that it errs on reading it until the log file is edited manually
  459. # [13:48] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-8b50f4ad19f9ea1b)
  460. # [14:03] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-160-41.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  461. # [14:10] * Joins: virtuelv_ (n=virtuelv@109.80-202-65.nextgentel.com)
  462. # [14:16] * Quits: virtuelv_ (n=virtuelv@109.80-202-65.nextgentel.com) ("Leaving")
  463. # [14:16] * Joins: phsiao (n=shawn@c-71-232-12-131.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  464. # [14:16] * Quits: phsiao (n=shawn@c-71-232-12-131.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  465. # [14:24] <Philip`> hsivonen: What part of SVN reads logs files?
  466. # [14:25] <hsivonen> Philip`: I don't know, but I can't run commit or cleanup until I add the bogus attribute the log file reader wants to see
  467. # [14:26] <Philip`> By "log", do you mean the output of "svn log"?
  468. # [14:26] <hsivonen> Philip`: I mean .svn/log
  469. # [14:26] * Philip` can't find a file name .svg/log anywhere on his computer
  470. # [14:26] <Philip`> Uh
  471. # [14:27] <Philip`> .svn/log
  472. # [14:28] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@109.80-202-65.nextgentel.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  473. # [14:29] <hsivonen> Philip`: the top level of a checkout has it
  474. # [14:30] <hsivonen> the GNU Ælfred2 code just keeps surprising me
  475. # [14:30] * hsivonen wants an XML5 SAX parser with a proper iterative tokenizer
  476. # [14:31] <Philip`> Hmm, maybe it's a log for failed transactions, which is why I don't have any such files
  477. # [14:31] <Philip`> (*failed and not yet cleaned up)
  478. # [14:31] <annevk> XML5 is SAX compatible
  479. # [14:34] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-1a4f8f17902c98a3)
  480. # [14:39] <annevk> posted about the embrace and extend stuff: http://annevankesteren.nl/2008/03/ie8-bad
  481. # [14:40] * Joins: wakaba (n=w@180.165.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  482. # [14:43] <Philip`> annevk: s/reuqests/requests/
  483. # [14:43] <annevk> thanks
  484. # [14:44] <zcorpan> annevk: pointer to the namespace stuff?
  485. # [14:45] <annevk> as in, you'd like to read about it or it should be in my post?
  486. # [14:45] <zcorpan> the former
  487. # [14:45] <zcorpan> (the latter is up to you)
  488. # [14:46] <Philip`> http://code.msdn.microsoft.com/ie8whitepapers/Release/ProjectReleases.aspx?ReleaseId=573
  489. # [14:46] * Philip` wonders what XPS files are
  490. # [14:46] <zcorpan> Philip`: thanks
  491. # [14:46] <annevk> guess i'll leave it out as i already provided various pointers to http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/winfamily/ie/ie8/readiness/DevelopersNew.htm
  492. # [14:47] <Philip`> (The namespace stuff appears to not work at all in the current beta)
  493. # [14:48] <annevk> (oh)
  494. # [14:48] <annevk> oh well
  495. # [14:48] <annevk> i thought bits did
  496. # [14:49] <Philip`> I've not found anything that works better than IE7, and http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/ie8/2.html works worse
  497. # [14:51] <annevk> i guess my comments still stand if it's worse
  498. # [14:53] <zcorpan> it's not clear to me what they have introduced with ie8 wrt namespaces that is incompatible, compared to ie7
  499. # [14:53] <Philip`> Presumably the beta is just unfinished and buggy, and the whitepaper describes what they hope they'll be able to implement at some point in the future
  500. # [14:53] <Philip`> (preferably without breaking the web)
  501. # [14:53] <takkaria> Philip`: XPS is MS's attempt to overthrow PDF
  502. # [14:54] <Philip`> takkaria: Ah, makes sense
  503. # [14:54] <Philip`> What kind of tools can read it?
  504. # [14:54] <takkaria> Office 2007
  505. # [14:54] <takkaria> I think they were trying to get printer manufacturers to understand it natively too
  506. # [14:54] <Philip`> Also, shouldn't they not make it obvious that it's 30% less space-efficient than PDF?
  507. # [14:55] <takkaria> it's actually XAML-based
  508. # [14:55] <Dashiva> That just means 30% more awesomeness per file
  509. # [14:56] <hsivonen> PostScript operators are more compact than XML. I guess they still are after deflate
  510. # [14:56] <Philip`> Dashiva: If you made a PDF file that was pure awesome, and then converted to XPS, what would happen?
  511. # [14:57] <Dashiva> The file becomes even more awesome because it's now bigger and can contain more awesomeness
  512. # [14:57] <Philip`> Oh, that makes sense
  513. # [14:58] <hsivonen> Philip`: it becomes XML-based an XML is standard, interoperable and awesome
  514. # [14:58] <hsivonen> s/ an / and /
  515. # [14:58] <takkaria> if you had a never-ending PDF file that was pure awesome, and you converted it to XPS, the two would be equally awesome
  516. # [14:59] <Dashiva> Well, even an infinite signal can have finite energy
  517. # [14:59] <Philip`> Hmm, do PDF or XPS support unending documents?
  518. # [15:00] <hsivonen> they don't
  519. # [15:00] <Philip`> I suppose they'd have a header which lists the number of pages, or something like that
  520. # [15:01] <hsivonen> PDF sure doesn't. it requires a seek to the end of the file in order to start reading
  521. # [15:01] <hsivonen> and XPS is in a PKZIP wrapper, which, I suppose, doesn't support infinite entries
  522. # [15:02] <Philip`> When a zip file spans multiple floppy disks, you have to insert the first disk then the last disk then the first disk again and then the second and third etc
  523. # [15:02] <Philip`> but I don't know if that means zip requires seeking to end, or if it's just the PKZIP implementation that requires it
  524. # [15:02] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  525. # [15:03] <Philip`> (Zip stores the list of files at the end, but maybe it has enough repeated data per file to allow non-seeking decompression)
  526. # [15:10] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@c-71-58-68-28.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
  527. # [15:16] * Joins: mpt_ (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  528. # [15:16] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Nick collision from services.)
  529. # [15:17] * mpt_ is now known as mpt
  530. # [15:31] <zcorpan> hmm, having dom attributes for aria might work for legacy browsers anyway, if ATs can read js properties on elements
  531. # [15:33] * Joins: mpt_ (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  532. # [15:34] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-1a4f8f17902c98a3)
  533. # [15:34] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Nick collision from services.)
  534. # [15:34] * mpt_ is now known as mpt
  535. # [15:36] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@109.80-202-65.nextgentel.com)
  536. # [15:41] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-91c835fc31bb9d0b)
  537. # [15:52] <zcorpan> Philip`: any idea why aria attributes don't show up in your live dom viewer for ie8?
  538. # [15:53] <zcorpan> i can access them using for-in, and they are .specified
  539. # [15:53] <Philip`> zcorpan: Probably because IE8 is crazy
  540. # [15:53] <zcorpan> no doubt
  541. # [15:54] <Philip`> I use attributes.getNamedItem(name) on them
  542. # [15:54] <Philip`> which is probably what fails
  543. # [15:54] <zcorpan> that works for me
  544. # [15:54] <Philip`> because 'name' is probably 'ariaDisabled' and not 'aria-disabled'
  545. # [15:54] <Philip`> unless I'm confused and/or wrong
  546. # [15:55] <zcorpan> .name is aria-haspopup
  547. # [15:55] <Philip`> Does for-in return "aria-haspopup"?
  548. # [15:56] <Philip`> By the way, where is my DOM viewer?
  549. # [15:56] <Philip`> (I think I've lost it temporarily)
  550. # [15:56] <zcorpan> http://philip.html5.org/misc/live-dom-viewer-ie8.html
  551. # [15:56] <Philip`> Aha, thanks
  552. # [15:57] <Philip`> but I thought I'd deleted that version since http://philip.html5.org/misc/live-dom-viewer-ie8/ has a working permalink button
  553. # [15:57] * Philip` deletes it
  554. # [15:57] <Philip`> Please use the non-.html version :-)
  555. # [15:59] <Philip`> Anyway, I'm not quite sure what'd cause that issue, and I don't have access to IE8 to test it right now
  556. # [16:00] <zcorpan> the non-.html version crashes ie8
  557. # [16:00] <Philip`> Um
  558. # [16:00] <zcorpan> twice, but works now... ?
  559. # [16:01] <Philip`> It's always worked for me
  560. # [16:01] * Parts: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  561. # [16:01] * Joins: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  562. # [16:10] <zcorpan_> hmm, getNamedItem indeed doesn't seem to work
  563. # [16:11] <zcorpan_> it returns null
  564. # [16:12] * Joins: MacDome (n=eric@c-69-181-78-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  565. # [16:12] <Philip`> Would getAttribute work better?
  566. # [16:15] * Joins: phsiao (n=shawn@nat/ibm/x-7fdb0e9c36eb9a80)
  567. # [16:17] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@12.14.132.227)
  568. # [16:21] * Quits: MacDome (n=eric@c-69-181-78-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  569. # [16:22] * Joins: billmason (n=billmaso@ip85.unival.com)
  570. # [16:22] <zcorpan_> only if you reverse the camelcase to hyphenated
  571. # [16:23] <Philip`> Is .attributes meant to have the DOM (hyphenated) attributes?
  572. # [16:24] <Philip`> (in for-in iteration and getNamedItem, at least)
  573. # [16:25] <zcorpan_> for-in returns the camelcase version, getNamedItem or [] notation requires hyphenated
  574. # [16:26] <zcorpan_> that's why it doesn't work
  575. # [16:27] * Quits: jandem (n=jandem@unaffiliated/jandem) (Remote closed the connection)
  576. # [16:29] <Philip`> Has somebody noticed that IE8's standards mode is like other browsers' standards mode and never like almost-standards mode?
  577. # [16:29] * Quits: billmason (n=billmaso@ip85.unival.com) (".")
  578. # [16:29] <Philip`> (which seems kind of bad for compatibility)
  579. # [16:30] <zcorpan_> i guess we need to fix css2.1 before ie8 ships
  580. # [16:31] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@109.80-202-65.nextgentel.com) ("Leaving")
  581. # [16:34] * Joins: SadEagle (n=maksim@cpe-69-202-89-106.twcny.res.rr.com)
  582. # [16:37] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@109.80-202-65.nextgentel.com)
  583. # [16:40] <takkaria> I wonder why MS seem to not let any of their browser people talk to anyone outside MS about anything
  584. # [16:40] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de) ("Verlassend")
  585. # [16:41] <Philip`> takkaria: That's not entirely true - I think they've posted questions to the HTML WG about three times
  586. # [16:41] * takkaria grins
  587. # [16:43] * Joins: billmason (n=billmaso@ip85.unival.com)
  588. # [16:45] <Philip`> Maybe they'll be willing to talk more now that they've revealed a number of the features they're implementing
  589. # [16:45] <takkaria> I just want to an answer to "why are you implementing APIs async when they're not meant to be?", really
  590. # [16:47] <Philip`> "Internet Explorer 8 Beta 1 for Developers writes items to the store asynchronously so that your Web page can continue on."
  591. # [16:47] <Philip`> Is that not a good enough answer?
  592. # [16:50] <Philip`> It'd be nice to know how begin/commit work if it's spread across multiple script blocks, and is interleaved with execution of another window in the same domain
  593. # [16:51] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-67-160-251-228.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  594. # [16:51] <takkaria> it's not a bad reason, but "could do better". :)
  595. # [16:53] <Philip`> Acid3 seems to be well timed with the IE8 beta release, since many people are commenting that even though IE8 sort of passes Acid2 it is still not nearly as standards-compliant as other browsers in Acid3
  596. # [16:54] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-fb19a711aedf481c)
  597. # [16:58] * Quits: hdh (n=hdh@58.187.104.235) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  598. # [17:00] <zcorpan_> and scores the same as ie7, doesn't it?
  599. # [17:01] <Dashiva> Philip`: sort of?
  600. # [17:01] <Philip`> IE7 gets 13, IE8 gets 17
  601. # [17:05] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@109.80-202-65.nextgentel.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  602. # [17:08] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  603. # [17:10] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-fb19a711aedf481c)
  604. # [17:10] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@70-13-222-188.area2.spcsdns.net)
  605. # [17:23] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@109.80-202-65.nextgentel.com)
  606. # [17:33] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-4d2df01dec7ec0ea)
  607. # [17:34] <tantek> mmmm.... Las Manitas.....
  608. # [17:35] <tantek> sorry, wrong channel, that was meant for #sxsw ;)
  609. # [17:37] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-4d2df01dec7ec0ea) (Client Quit)
  610. # [17:41] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  611. # [17:42] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-496b41053e00a087)
  612. # [17:42] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  613. # [17:43] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@70-13-222-188.area2.spcsdns.net) (Connection reset by peer)
  614. # [17:51] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no)
  615. # [17:52] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-142-194-45.range86-142.btcentralplus.com) ("Partying in teh intarwebs")
  616. # [17:59] <aroben> annevk: nice blog post (re: http://annevankesteren.nl/2008/03/ie8-bad)
  617. # [18:05] <Dashiva> The second bullet seems a bit vague on what feature they've implemented
  618. # [18:05] <othermaciej> yeah
  619. # [18:05] <othermaciej> I figured out that it is about DOM storage
  620. # [18:05] <othermaciej> but they should say that
  621. # [18:07] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@12.14.132.227)
  622. # [18:22] * weinig|away is now known as weinig
  623. # [18:26] * weinig is now known as weinig|away
  624. # [18:33] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  625. # [18:35] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  626. # [18:45] * Joins: dveditz (n=dveditz@dsl-63-249-104-137.cruzio.com)
  627. # [18:55] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM117-55-70-142.pool.emnet.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  628. # [18:55] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@12.14.132.227)
  629. # [18:55] * Joins: G0k (n=hmason@cpe-24-58-5-224.twcny.res.rr.com)
  630. # [18:55] * Quits: G0k (n=hmason@cpe-24-58-5-224.twcny.res.rr.com) (Client Quit)
  631. # [19:00] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@109.80-202-65.nextgentel.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  632. # [19:02] * Parts: Camaban (n=adrianle@host81-135-169-203.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  633. # [19:07] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@La819.l.pppool.de)
  634. # [19:09] * Quits: weinig|away (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  635. # [19:18] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@12.14.133.162)
  636. # [19:19] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@12.14.133.162) (Client Quit)
  637. # [19:23] * Joins: eseidel_ (n=eseidelD@nat/google/x-2b3208296d10e393)
  638. # [19:24] * Parts: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  639. # [19:25] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@12.14.133.29)
  640. # [19:29] <Philip`> Dashiva: It only works on the version hosted on one specific domain, and you could argue that other versions are no less official, hence IE only sort of passes
  641. # [19:31] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  642. # [19:31] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@La819.l.pppool.de) ("Leaving")
  643. # [19:37] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  644. # [19:38] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@La819.l.pppool.de)
  645. # [19:43] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@109.80-202-65.nextgentel.com)
  646. # [19:46] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@109.80-202-65.nextgentel.com) (Client Quit)
  647. # [19:48] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  648. # [19:49] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  649. # [19:50] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.180)
  650. # [19:52] * Joins: blooberry (n=brian@c-76-126-194-196.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  651. # [20:04] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  652. # [20:12] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@109.80-202-65.nextgentel.com)
  653. # [20:12] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  654. # [20:18] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-67-160-251-228.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  655. # [20:30] <Philip`> In Acid2 in IE8, the nose goes blue only when the mouse is above the bottom of the nose, whereas Firefox and Opera make it blue when the mouse is over the line below that
  656. # [20:30] <Philip`> Is that undefined behaviour, or a bug in IE, or not part of the test?
  657. # [20:32] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  658. # [20:33] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.203.15.201)
  659. # [20:37] * Joins: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  660. # [20:43] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  661. # [20:56] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@eM60-254-199-3.pool.emnet.ne.jp)
  662. # [20:58] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-91c835fc31bb9d0b) (Connection timed out)
  663. # [21:00] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  664. # [21:04] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-142-194-45.range86-142.btcentralplus.com)
  665. # [21:07] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.180)
  666. # [21:08] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@La819.l.pppool.de) ("Leaving")
  667. # [21:16] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no) ("Leaving")
  668. # [21:28] * Joins: itpastorn (n=itpastor@139.57.227.87.static.th.siw.siwnet.net)
  669. # [21:28] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@guest-228.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  670. # [21:31] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  671. # [21:42] * aroben is now known as aroben|away
  672. # [21:45] * Quits: annevk (n=annevk@77.163.243.203) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  673. # [21:45] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@77.163.243.203)
  674. # [21:45] <annevk> hmm, Ubuntu's seemling random freezes are annoying
  675. # [21:46] <annevk> especially when there's IRC history of unlogged channels :(
  676. # [21:46] * Quits: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  677. # [21:48] <Dashiva> annevk: And they still don't have opera 9.26 ;)
  678. # [21:49] <annevk> I know how to get my own builds :)
  679. # [21:54] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.255.103.244)
  680. # [21:56] <eseidel> Philip`: best to ask Hixie about the nose-blue thing
  681. # [22:00] * Joins: DxSadEagle (n=maksim@cpe-69-202-89-106.twcny.res.rr.com)
  682. # [22:05] * aroben|away is now known as aroben
  683. # [22:07] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no)
  684. # [22:09] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.255.98.30)
  685. # [22:11] * Quits: SadEagle (n=maksim@kde/orlovich) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  686. # [22:18] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@17.203.15.180)
  687. # [22:19] <annevk> grmbl, what's up with my blog
  688. # [22:20] <hsivonen> has the order in which #document-fragment appears in the tests changed?
  689. # [22:21] <hsivonen> it looks like the format no longer matches what I programmed my test harness to expect
  690. # [22:22] <hsivonen> yeah.
  691. # [22:23] <hsivonen> annevk: ok if I reorder the test case fields so that they are in a consistent order
  692. # [22:23] <hsivonen> ?
  693. # [22:23] <annevk> that'd be cool
  694. # [22:24] <hsivonen> ok
  695. # [22:24] <annevk> i'd still like to group them logically somehow at some point
  696. # [22:25] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.201) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  697. # [22:29] <gsnedders> annevk: remember what the topic is in here :)
  698. # [22:32] * Joins: tantek__ (n=tantek@12.14.133.29)
  699. # [22:32] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@12.14.133.29) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  700. # [22:35] <Hixie> xkcd: added a comment, thanks for the headsup
  701. # [22:36] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.255.103.244) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  702. # [22:39] <hsivonen> ooh. there are now serializer tests, too
  703. # [22:39] * Parts: itpastorn (n=itpastor@139.57.227.87.static.th.siw.siwnet.net)
  704. # [22:40] <annevk> and some fragment stuff too it seems, but looking through the code fragment parsing has lots of bugs
  705. # [22:40] <hsivonen> annevk: do you mean fragment tree building?
  706. # [22:41] <annevk> yeah
  707. # [22:41] <hsivonen> that stuff was around already in the summer
  708. # [22:41] <annevk> true
  709. # [22:41] <annevk> the serializer stuff has been in for quite a while too i think
  710. # [22:41] <hsivonen> hmm. I wonder if I should implement the feed sniffer, too, and whine if people try to validate docs that would be sniffed as feeds
  711. # [22:41] * Quits: peepo (n=Jay@host86-147-236-233.range86-147.btcentralplus.com) ("later")
  712. # [22:42] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@guest-228.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  713. # [22:45] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@guest-228.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  714. # [22:51] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.255.103.244)
  715. # [22:52] * Joins: weinig__ (n=weinig@17.203.15.180)
  716. # [22:52] * Quits: weinig_ (n=weinig@17.203.15.180) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  717. # [22:53] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-496b41053e00a087)
  718. # [22:53] <annevk> http://www.anomalousanomaly.com/2008/03/06/acid-3/ is funny
  719. # [22:57] * Joins: ianloic (i=yakk@glub.dreamhostps.com)
  720. # [22:58] * Joins: webben (n=benh@91.84.250.225)
  721. # [22:58] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@guest-228.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  722. # [23:00] <gavin_> heh
  723. # [23:04] <svl> weird that 2% gap between gecko 20080306 and 20080305; I only know of the A ~ B C checkin adding an extra point, but where's the other one coming from?
  724. # [23:04] <Philip`> "3.0b3pre nightly (2008030504)" - is that possible? I thought it was 3.0b5pre
  725. # [23:05] <svl> indeed
  726. # [23:06] <Dashiva> No opera 9.5, pssh
  727. # [23:07] <gavin_> Philip`: the date is when it was built
  728. # [23:07] <gavin_> so it's possible that it was a custom build
  729. # [23:07] <gavin_> based on older code
  730. # [23:08] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.255.103.244) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  731. # [23:09] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  732. # [23:10] <roc> If Webkit can gain 50% in a few months then once we start trying we'll hit 116%!
  733. # [23:10] * Quits: DxSadEagle (n=maksim@cpe-69-202-89-106.twcny.res.rr.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  734. # [23:11] <roc> mmm, we should easter-egg that in a nightly build just for laughs
  735. # [23:12] <annevk> hehe
  736. # [23:12] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.201)
  737. # [23:12] <othermaciej> in a way we gained more than 50%
  738. # [23:13] <othermaciej> cause Hixie kept adding new tests for us to fail
  739. # [23:17] <jgraham> show-off ;)
  740. # [23:18] <jgraham> Will anyone object if I change most of the mixed-case <!DOCTYPE hTmL> things in the html5lib test suite to have lowercase html
  741. # [23:18] * Quits: tantek__ (n=tantek@12.14.133.29)
  742. # [23:19] <hsivonen> jgraham: I'm not objecting but I'm curious why
  743. # [23:20] <jgraham> The rationale being that the new lxml treebuilder in html5lib doesn't actually store the doctype name (because lxml just stores the root element name instead), so at the moment we have to selectively skip those tests for lxml
  744. # [23:20] <annevk> yeah
  745. # [23:20] <annevk> i do
  746. # [23:20] * Quits: phsiao (n=shawn@nat/ibm/x-7fdb0e9c36eb9a80)
  747. # [23:21] <annevk> i think having those tests in there is a good thing
  748. # [23:21] <othermaciej> jgraham: Hixie himelf said so
  749. # [23:22] <jgraham> annevk: I agree that testing that odd doctypes work is A Good Thing
  750. # [23:22] <othermaciej> I'm not especially excited about it since it kind of makes Safari 3.0.4 look worse in comparison to other browsers than it actually is, but so it goes
  751. # [23:22] <jgraham> I don't think we need to pollute lots of tests for other markup wih them
  752. # [23:22] <annevk> ok... hmm
  753. # [23:24] <jgraham> (Other solutions include changing the parsing algorithm to downcase the doctype name in the DOM (dunno if that has compat issues) or hacking the test harness somehow)
  754. # [23:26] <annevk> omg
  755. # [23:27] <annevk> why did i walk in the colorblind trap on public-css-testsuite
  756. # [23:27] <annevk> this stuff is hilarious
  757. # [23:30] * Quits: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.255.98.30) (Connection timed out)
  758. # [23:30] * Philip` doesn't quite see why it is
  759. # [23:32] <hsivonen> jgraham: I agree that the doctype shouldn't have to round trip in data models designed for XML
  760. # [23:36] <Dashiva> annevk: chaals is gonna cricket-bat you if you keep this up ;)
  761. # [23:37] <hsivonen> I think it isn't hilarious, but using color does have a point since it doesn't depend on for renderers, etc.
  762. # [23:37] <gsnedders> Dashiva: I never knew chaals was that kind
  763. # [23:38] <Dashiva> I take it your treatment was worse?
  764. # [23:38] <hsivonen> s/for/font/
  765. # [23:38] <gsnedders> Dashiva: IE6.
  766. # [23:39] <Dashiva> That's all?
  767. # [23:41] <gsnedders> And chaals, why I make bad joke.
  768. # [23:41] <gsnedders> *while
  769. # [23:41] <gsnedders> *jokes
  770. # [23:41] * gsnedders is too tired
  771. # [23:41] <hsivonen> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/rdb2rdf/ interesting
  772. # [23:42] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@guest-228.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  773. # [23:48] <gsnedders> anyone have any view on which of Computational Physics, Maths with Physics, or Computer Sciences to do at uni
  774. # [23:50] <annevk> ok, not exactly hilarious
  775. # [23:50] <annevk> still, accusations of discrimination when it comes to such a limited target audience seems a bit of stretch
  776. # [23:51] * Quits: weinig__ (n=weinig@17.203.15.180)
  777. # [23:52] <gsnedders> I mean, does it really matter when a whole ten people in the world will use the test cases?
  778. # [23:52] <annevk> no it doesn't
  779. # [23:52] <Philip`> gsnedders: Is that Computer Science that doesn't include any physics?
  780. # [23:53] <gsnedders> Philip`: no more physics than CS normally does :)
  781. # [23:53] <annevk> there's someone on Opera's QA team who is partially colorblind and he just does different types of tests
  782. # [23:53] <gsnedders> Philip`: and you probably know better than me how much that is
  783. # [23:53] <Philip`> What's normal? :-)
  784. # [23:53] <gsnedders> Philip`: where did you go as an undergraduate?
  785. # [23:53] <Philip`> 25% of my first year was physics
  786. # [23:53] <Philip`> Cambridge
  787. # [23:54] <gsnedders> do you still have to take a Nat. Sci.?
  788. # [23:54] <Philip`> which is not entirely normal
  789. # [23:54] <gsnedders> among the places where I'd even think of doing CS, it is :)
  790. # [23:55] <jgraham> gsnedders: Well Computer Science probably appears on more job adverts, although I wouldn't advocate using that as a metric
  791. # [23:56] <gsnedders> jgraham: most I've seen also say, "or related field", though :)
  792. # [23:56] <jgraham> Physics is only very arguably a related field
  793. # [23:56] <Philip`> gsnedders: As far as I'm aware, you still have to do one sciencey thing (plus maths) in the first year - there are plans to change that so there's a purer CS option, but not for next year (but maybe for the year after)
  794. # [23:56] <hsivonen> gsnedders: I have just two observations: 1) There are people who picked physics but end up doing software-related stuff anyway. 2) Picking physics for the prestige doesn't make sense; one needs to be motivated in order to keep up with the kind of math classes physics majors take.
  795. # [23:57] * jgraham hasn't yet found out how big the practical difference is
  796. # [23:57] <gsnedders> Philip`: I wouldn't be starting until 2009 anyway
  797. # [23:58] * Quits: marcosc (n=chatzill@124-171-128-9.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Remote closed the connection)
  798. # [23:58] <Philip`> gsnedders: Ah, in that case I think it's quite possible that there's be a non-natsci option, but I don't know what new material they'd introduce
  799. # [23:58] <Philip`> s/'s/'d/
  800. # [23:58] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@12.14.133.29)
  801. # [23:58] <gsnedders> hsivonen: 1) I'm well aware, which is part of the reason why I am considering physics with maths at all; 2) I'm probably more interested in physics than I am in CS.
  802. # [23:58] <jgraham> gsnedders: With Cambridge you can do 50% C.S., 25% Maths and 25% Physics in the first year and choose Physics or C.S. in the second year
  803. # [23:59] * gsnedders will probably nag jgraham and Philip` about Cam. more in May
  804. # Session Close: Fri Mar 07 00:00:00 2008

The end :)