/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-03-07 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Mar 07 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <jgraham> gsnedders: Do you have a long term goal e.g. academia, ordinary employment, start own business, etc.
  4. # [00:00] <jgraham> ?
  5. # [00:01] <gsnedders> jgraham: NOT academia (that's the one result of having a father in that). :) Some sort of CS-related job, likely either programming or QA initally
  6. # [00:01] <Philip`> The first year is usually not terribly interesting anyway, since it's largely covering things that half the people already know half of, and after that there's no mixing between CS and other departments
  7. # [00:02] <hsivonen> gsnedders: fwiw, the math bit is from experience. Where I studied, one had to test higher to get into physics than CS. I wanted to do CS, but since on paper I was smart enough to do physicist math, I took physicist math inititally out of vanity. It wasn't a smart choice, since I didn't really care enough about hard math and the CS kind of math would have been more useful to me up front
  8. # [00:03] * gsnedders would likely go straight into second year if he went to Edi., as I'll have done an extra year at school over the Scottish norm, which has the fun of not being taught some of the more specific stuff and then have to catch up quickly
  9. # [00:04] <Hixie> annevk: when people complained to me, i pointed out that people with visual disabilities are probably not ideally suited to doing visual quality assurace
  10. # [00:04] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Comparing where the two places I'd really lean towards between the two, the entrance requirements are more or less identical, though CS may be harder to get into. I don't really care about vanity.
  11. # [00:04] <jgraham> gsnedders: As someone who has latterly decided that academia is a bad idea I am finding that I would have benefited from more CS in my background, either from classes or from personal learning
  12. # [00:04] <Philip`> (Incidentally, I think there are plans for an optional fourth year in the CS tripos here, which should be introduced soonish - I'm not sure if that's mentioned in any prospectus-like documents yet)
  13. # [00:05] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.180)
  14. # [00:05] <gsnedders> jgraham: heh. I forget what you do?
  15. # [00:05] <jgraham> gsnedders: I'm coming to the end of an astrophysics PhD
  16. # [00:06] <gsnedders> jgraham: you're postgrad too? oh. My memory really is bad.
  17. # [00:06] <Hixie> personally i've found that having the scientific method drilled into me was very useful, and that i learnt pretty much all the CS i needed for my career on my own time
  18. # [00:07] <hsivonen> gsnedders: well I'm not sure if vanity is the right way of describing it. I was silly enough to think that it would be a good idea to take the "guru" math since I was eligible.
  19. # [00:07] <othermaciej> physics is a great major if you want a high-paying job in finance
  20. # [00:08] <gsnedders> All the CS I've needed for what I've done I've more or less learnt myself or found people around on the web (recently mainly here). There's very little I haven't managed to get my head around myself.
  21. # [00:08] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Mini-story: I was given a choice between being in the top set, or in the third set (of eleven), for Maths. I chose the third set, not wanting to act like a know-it-all.
  22. # [00:08] <jgraham> othermaciej: And you can stomach the hours, the work environment, the lack of ethics...
  23. # [00:09] <gsnedders> othermaciej: finance would kill me. :)
  24. # [00:11] <gsnedders> hsivonen: re: entrance requirements: maths & phys and CS have identical requirements (comparing ed and cam respectively)
  25. # [00:11] <Philip`> I think there are at least a few things I probably wouldn't have learnt myself, like Fourier transforms and discrete maths and Turing machines and lambda calculus and FSMs and logic and semantics and security and quantum computing and stuff
  26. # [00:12] <Philip`> mainly because I wouldn't have any motivation to learn about those things myself
  27. # [00:12] * Quits: david_ (i=david@bsdguru.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  28. # [00:12] <blooberry> hixie: I remember that email thread you had about color blindness. 8-}
  29. # [00:12] <Philip`> because they're not always entirely useful; but there are always a few occasions when I'm glad I know about such things :-)
  30. # [00:12] * Joins: david_ (i=david@bsdguru.net)
  31. # [00:12] <jgraham> FWIW out of those I did Fourier transforms and Quantum computing in a physics degree
  32. # [00:13] <Philip`> I was taught about Fourier transforms three times, and at the end I almost understood them
  33. # [00:13] <gsnedders> Philip`: I nagged Turing machines out of you, IIRC.
  34. # [00:13] <gsnedders> Big-O notation is one of the few things I really don't get my head around
  35. # [00:13] <gsnedders> (and don't try now)
  36. # [00:14] <Philip`> gsnedders: Knowing what a Turing machine is is not the same as knowing how you can prove that you can't write a program to calculate how much memory a Turing machine is going to use
  37. # [00:14] <gsnedders> More than anything, it's between Comp. Phys. and Comp. Sci., FWIW
  38. # [00:15] <Philip`> (Not that that's a particularly useful thing to prove...)
  39. # [00:15] <gsnedders> Philip`: what a horrible thing to prove
  40. # [00:15] <gsnedders> Philip`: But yeah, realistically, how many times will I need to know that? :P
  41. # [00:16] <Hixie> well, actually, the halting problem came up in the web forms 2 vs xforms transitional thing
  42. # [00:16] <Hixie> so...
  43. # [00:16] <gsnedders> but actually prove it?
  44. # [00:16] <roc> A man^H^H^Hcomputer's got to know his limitations
  45. # [00:16] <Hixie> well you don't need to actually prove it more than once, but you do need to know the proofso that you know whether it can be applied to another situation or not
  46. # [00:17] <Philip`> It's useful to know that you can't decide any interesting property of programs
  47. # [00:17] <jgraham> Oddly enough Dave Raggett has a Physics degree
  48. # [00:17] <roc> actually that's not true
  49. # [00:17] <Hixie> understanding how something works is a very important component of using something
  50. # [00:17] <Hixie> roc: what isn't? :-)
  51. # [00:17] <roc> there are entire workshops devoted to proving termination of programs
  52. # [00:18] * gsnedders has a very crude idea of how to prove it
  53. # [00:18] <Philip`> Microsoft has a useful termination-prover for device drivers
  54. # [00:18] <Philip`> but it's not deciding termination
  55. # [00:18] <roc> you can decide for some programs
  56. # [00:18] <Philip`> since sometimes it can only tell you that it can't prove termination
  57. # [00:19] <roc> maybe even almost all programs
  58. # [00:19] <Hixie> Philip`: many web browsers have a halting problem solver too. usually implemented as a timeout. :-P
  59. # [00:19] <gsnedders> how technically complex! :P
  60. # [00:21] <Philip`> roc: That's theoretically useless if it doesn't work for any arbitrary program :-)
  61. # [00:21] <gsnedders> roc: when will I terminate?
  62. # [00:21] <gsnedders> roc: will I>
  63. # [00:21] <gsnedders> s/>/?/
  64. # [00:21] <roc> gsnedders: I can compute an upper bound, which is considered a satisfactory solution to this problem
  65. # [00:22] <gsnedders> roc: thx
  66. # [00:22] <roc> Undecidability results, like NP-completeness results, can be misleading because in practice a lot of those problems are only "really hard" on a very small subset of the instances
  67. # [00:22] * Joins: webben_ (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com)
  68. # [00:24] <roc> e.g. in the last decade or two, there was in an explosion in the construction of SAT solvers and their application to lots of different domains, because although SAT is NP-complete almost all SAT problems, even huge ones, are relatively easy
  69. # [00:24] <Philip`> I've always wondered why people care about decidability of type systems, since you're always going to run the program after you've compiled it and then you've got no hope of always terminating
  70. # [00:24] <roc> keeps the build times down
  71. # [00:25] <jgraham> What's a SAT?
  72. # [00:25] <Philip`> You can still get exponential (I think) build times in something like ML, so it doesn't guarantee that the compiler won't take longer than the lifetime of the universe
  73. # [00:25] * jgraham discovers google
  74. # [00:25] <roc> A SAT problem is basically "find a set of assignments to boolean variables that makes this huge boolean formula true: ..."
  75. # [00:25] <gsnedders> Philip`: ML?
  76. # [00:26] <roc> Philip`: that's true. In fact the more advanced type theorists have given up on decidable type theories :-)
  77. # [00:26] <Philip`> gsnedders: The language
  78. # [00:26] <Philip`> GHC has some extensions to Haskell that apparently make its type system Turing complete, which is kind of crazy
  79. # [00:27] <gsnedders> I'm going all Web 2.0 with my computing coursework: "Processr"
  80. # [00:27] <gsnedders> Philip`: the _type system_ is Turing complete? That's mad.
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  82. # [00:30] <Dashiva> gsnedders: Any worse than C++ templates, or preprocessor macros?
  83. # [00:31] <Philip`> The C preprocessor isn't Turing complete since it can't do anything like recursion
  84. # [00:31] <Philip`> C++ templates are mad :-)
  85. # [00:31] <gsnedders> Dashiva: Ah, that's true. You do have that, but seemingly more useful
  86. # [00:31] <gsnedders> (with the preprocessor, at least)
  87. # [00:31] <gsnedders> (I know nothing about C++ templates)
  88. # [00:33] * gsnedders ought to learn C++
  89. # [00:33] * gsnedders has said that before
  90. # [00:34] <takkaria> people use C++ as an excuse to perform frankly inexcusable deeds
  91. # [00:35] * Quits: webben (n=benh@91.84.250.225) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  92. # [00:36] <Dashiva> takkaria: Much like everything else man comes in contact with
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  107. # [01:42] <Philip`> IE's mode setting thing doesn't interact well with the Live DOM Viewer
  108. # [01:46] * Parts: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  109. # [01:47] <Philip`> Hmm, the <svg xmlns=foo> things the second time you use it on a page
  110. # [01:47] <Philip`> Uh
  111. # [01:47] <Philip`> s/things/thing works/
  112. # [01:49] <Philip`> ...but when I say "works", I mean that in basically the opposite sense to usual, because it breaks the parsing of everything after the second usage
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  114. # [01:51] <Hixie> i really am very disappointed in their insistence on continuing this xmlns= crap in text/html
  115. # [01:51] <Hixie> the more they do with this, the more screwed we are in html5 in terms of adding namespaces
  116. # [01:51] <Hixie> though maybe we can just do ns= or something
  117. # [01:59] <othermaciej> htmlns
  118. # [01:59] <Philip`> The more annoying thing is how simply using colons (with no xmlns or anything) causes occasional XML-like parsing
  119. # [02:00] <Hixie> well that's ok
  120. # [02:00] <Hixie> don't use colons :-)
  121. # [02:00] <Hixie> we've already learnt (the hard way) that prefixes are a horrible idea
  122. # [02:00] <Hixie> so whatever we do end up doing won't have prefixes
  123. # [02:04] <tantek> Hixie, could you please document how you've learned that prefixes are a horrible idea so others won't keep repeating and reproposing that mistake?
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  125. # [02:05] <Hixie> yeah i have a half-written blog post on the subject
  126. # [02:05] <Hixie> i add to it occasionally
  127. # [02:05] <Hixie> one day it'll even get finished :-)
  128. # [02:06] <Dashiva> And then someone will point out how all the problems are really just awesome features that we aren't ready to leverage yet
  129. # [02:06] <Hixie> yup
  130. # [02:06] <Hixie> but we don't have to agree with them
  131. # [02:07] <Dashiva> I'm just wondering if there are any people left who don't either know or don't want to know :)
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  133. # [02:21] <jwalden> Hixie: regarding <http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2008-March/014156.html>, the paragraph starting "Fourth", was my understanding of how data: URIs work according to the spec wrong? the code to create the window at a data: location is <http://bonsai.mozilla.org/cvsblame.cgi?file=/mozilla/dom/tests/mochitest/whatwg/test_postMessage_special.xhtml&rev=1.2&mark=266-283#265>...
  134. # [02:21] <jwalden> ...-- should events posted from that window have .origin be that of the test_postMessage_special.xhtml page?
  135. # [02:30] <Hixie> jwalden: i expect the spec to change regarding the origin of data: URIs
  136. # [02:32] <jwalden> okay
  137. # [02:32] <jwalden> I shall forget I ever had concerns about that part, for now :-)
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  139. # [02:35] <Hixie> wait, the spec already seems to be updated
  140. # [02:35] <Hixie> i'm confused
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  142. # [02:35] <Hixie> the spec says:
  143. # [02:35] <Hixie> "The origin of a Document or image that was generated from a data: URI found in another Document or in a script is the origin of the Document or script.
  144. # [02:36] <Hixie> "
  145. # [02:36] <Hixie> what is it firefox does?
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  147. # [02:39] <Hixie> jwalden: ^ (in case you're not watching teh channel :-) )
  148. # [02:40] <jwalden> Hixie: I could have sworn last I looked that data: URIs each had a globally unique identifier as their origin; it's possible you changed it since I last looked
  149. # [02:41] <jwalden> (and I tend to watch sporadically or flip here when I get pinged :-) )
  150. # [02:41] <Hixie> the spec says:
  151. # [02:41] <Hixie> The origin of a Document or image that was generated from a data: URI found in another Document or in a script is the origin of the Document or script.
  152. # [02:41] <Hixie> The origin of a Document or image that was generated from a data: URI from another source is a globally unique identifier assigned when the document is created.
  153. # [02:41] <Hixie> is that what you want it to say?
  154. # [02:41] <Hixie> or do you want it to say something else?
  155. # [02:42] <jwalden> I think that's what Firefox does, which is most convenient for me (I don't have a particular desire one way or another except to avoid work on my part) :-)
  156. # [02:42] <jwalden> I'm guessing the "other source" is, e.g., stuff typed in the location bar
  157. # [02:43] <Hixie> yeah
  158. # [02:44] <jwalden> might be worth mentioning that as an example of the latter, fwiw
  159. # [02:47] <Hixie> send mail
  160. # [02:47] <Hixie> no wait
  161. # [02:47] <Hixie> i have it right here
  162. # [02:47] <Hixie> i can just do that
  163. # [02:51] <jwalden> thanks
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  167. # [03:24] <jwalden> I am convinced I have at least a 50% failure rate at remembering to use my +whatwg email address for messages to the list
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  171. # [04:08] <Hixie> jwalden: that's why i don't bother with different mail addresses
  172. # [04:08] <Hixie> not to mention what happens when you cross-post
  173. # [04:09] <Hixie> hey have you tested IE8 on your tests?
  174. # [04:09] <jwalden> no, not yet
  175. # [04:09] <jwalden> I need to set up vmware and windows to do so, which will be a small pain
  176. # [04:09] <jwalden> based on what they've written, I "suspect" they implemented the pre-origin API
  177. # [04:10] <jwalden> so far I've only run against WebKit+patch
  178. # [04:10] <jwalden> Opera's latest still has postMessage on document, so it's a bit pointless there
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  195. # [05:28] <Lachy> FYI, for anyone using html5.lachy.id.au, my site will soon be transferred to Dreamhost (as soon as the DNS is updated) and some things on on there will be broken due to the move. That (and any other broken things) will be fixed on the weekend.
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  199. # [05:52] <othermaciej> I believe their docs described the pre-origin API
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  207. # [06:37] <jwalden> Hixie: with pain, I got the tests set up well enough to be able to say that IE breaks on parts of the harness used in the tests, such that the tests can't be run in it -- was getting runtime errors trying to access the |attributes| property of an element
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  236. # [10:09] <Hixie> wow, rsayrer is bitter
  237. # [10:10] <annevk> no kidding
  238. # [10:15] <virtuelv> url?
  239. # [10:16] <virtuelv> or are you refering to his mail to pubic-webapi?
  240. # [10:16] <annevk> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2008-March/014168.html
  241. # [10:16] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapi/2008Mar/0014.html
  242. # [10:16] <annevk> yeah
  243. # [10:17] <Hixie> woah, glazman and plinss are replacing bert
  244. # [10:17] <annevk> CSS versioning ftw!
  245. # [10:18] <zcorpan> hmm? pointer?
  246. # [10:21] <annevk> Hixie, the quotation marks checking replaced the ending quotation mark with a colon...
  247. # [10:21] <Hixie> annevk: hm?
  248. # [10:21] <hsivonen> annevk: CSS versioning?
  249. # [10:21] <zcorpan> Hixie: "<code title="">false</code>:
  250. # [10:22] <Hixie> oops
  251. # [10:22] <annevk> hsivonen, glazou likes that
  252. # [10:23] <zcorpan> @DOCTYPE CSS PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD CSS 2.1//EN";
  253. # [10:23] <hsivonen> annevk: interesting. I don't like even strict levels. (setting level to 3 and getting errors for Prince extensions sucks)
  254. # [10:25] <annevk> Hixie, also "<code title="">true</code>:
  255. # [10:25] <annevk> twice
  256. # [10:31] <Hixie> fixed
  257. # [10:31] <Hixie> anyone got a tool that gets true type font metrics?
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  261. # [11:01] <jgraham_> zcorpan: Oops I entirely missed your message about aria before I replied
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  263. # [11:02] * Hixie finally finds a ttfdump tool on microsoft's site and determines that the Ahem ex height is 0.8em as he suspected
  264. # [11:12] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no) ("Leaving")
  265. # [11:23] <Hixie> hm, i wonder if lachy is coming back
  266. # [11:23] * Hixie summons Lachy
  267. # [11:25] * Hixie sacrifices a chicken:
  268. # [11:25] <Hixie> . ,
  269. # [11:25] <Hixie> ('>)
  270. # [11:25] <Hixie> LL ..'o
  271. # [11:25] <Hixie> eep, my second line was misindented
  272. # [11:25] <Hixie> now my summoning ritual wil go wrong!
  273. # [11:25] * Hixie runs away
  274. # [11:26] * zcorpan wonders what will happen instead of Lachy coming back
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  277. # [11:35] <Hixie> woot, it worked after all
  278. # [11:35] <Hixie> Lachy: do you still think contentEditable="" is non-semantic?
  279. # [11:36] <Lachy> I really don't like the way its designed
  280. # [11:36] <Hixie> "designed" is putting it nicely
  281. # [11:36] <annevk> Hixie, hey, did you stop solving parsing issues?
  282. # [11:36] <annevk> :(
  283. # [11:36] <annevk> heh
  284. # [11:36] <Hixie> annevk: were there specific ones you wanted me to resolve that i didn't resolve?
  285. # [11:37] <Hixie> annevk: the parsing folders were down to just a few issues
  286. # [11:37] <annevk> forms :)
  287. # [11:37] <Lachy> s/designed/put together in an ad hoc way that focuses more on presntational editing rather than semantics
  288. # [11:37] <annevk> nested forms, to be specific
  289. # [11:37] <Hixie> annevk: oh, oops, i forgot about that one
  290. # [11:37] <Hixie> annevk: will do that after i've done this contentEditable e-mail
  291. # [11:38] <annevk> cool
  292. # [11:38] <Hixie> annevk: remind me if i don't after i've sent it :-)
  293. # [11:38] <Hixie> Lachy: yeah, no disagreement from me there (i've tried hard to work around that in html5)
  294. # [11:38] <Lachy> I will have to review the spec. It's been a while since I even looked at content editable
  295. # [11:39] <Hixie> k
  296. # [11:39] <Hixie> me tyoo
  297. # [11:39] <Hixie> too even
  298. # [11:53] <hsivonen> wow. visitmix.com suggests I might use VLC to view their stuff as an alternative to Silverlight
  299. # [11:57] <Lachy> Hixie, just reviewing it now. It's not particularly clear about this markup: <p contenteditable="true">...<span contenteditable=false>is this editable?</span>...</p>
  300. # [11:57] <Hixie> it is not
  301. # [11:57] <Lachy> in particular, this paragraph is a little confusing about that. "If an HTML element has a contenteditable attribute set to the true state, or if its nearest ancestor HTML element with the contenteditable attribute set has its attribute set to the true state, or if it has no ancestors with the contenteditable attribute set but the Document has designMode enabled, then the UA must treat the element as editable (as described below). "
  302. # [11:58] <Lachy> since that span falls into the "or if its nearest ancestor HTML element with the contenteditable attribute set has its attribute set to the true state" condition.
  303. # [11:58] <annevk> is the contenteditable section already updated to match browsers? i think my outstanding comment on that hasn't been addressed yet
  304. # [11:59] <annevk> in particular, "The false keyword maps to the false state, which is also the invalid value default. " is wrong
  305. # [12:00] <annevk> invalid values are equivalent to the attribute being missing
  306. # [12:02] <Hixie> Lachy: hm yeah, that needs fixing.
  307. # [12:02] <Hixie> annevk: haven't gotten to that e-mail yet
  308. # [12:03] <annevk> kk
  309. # [12:03] <Lachy> Hixie, should I send mail about that, or will you just remember that? Are you going to be editing that section today?
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  311. # [12:25] <Hixie> i'll record it here
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  324. # [13:15] <hsivonen> looks like html5lib does not have test coverage for spec rev 1320
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  326. # [13:15] * annevk looks
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  328. # [13:15] <annevk> hsivonen, true
  329. # [13:16] <annevk> hsivonen, actually, I did check changing the implied end tags stuff and several fragment tests started reporting different amount of errors
  330. # [13:17] <hsivonen> annevk: I'd be more interested in catching the tree change arising from the different confidion for generate implied ond tags
  331. # [13:18] <hsivonen> but for some reason, it isn't quite obvious to me what the right test case would be
  332. # [13:18] <annevk> I don't think there's a difference for that
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  334. # [13:18] <annevk> I also did not look at the </form> change
  335. # [13:19] <hsivonen> oh. right. However, there does seem to be a difference with popping stuff
  336. # [13:20] <hsivonen> unless I'm missing something important
  337. # [13:20] <hsivonen> oops.
  338. # [13:20] <annevk> are you missing that <td> etc. never work in "in body"?
  339. # [13:20] <hsivonen> I was missing something important
  340. # [13:21] <hsivonen> nothing to see here
  341. # [13:21] <hsivonen> annevk: I was missing the details of me own stack search optimization
  342. # [13:21] <hsivonen> s/me/my/
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  349. # [13:43] <hsivonen> is it recommended to keep the table tainting data on the element stack or to keep a smaller separate taint stack?
  350. # [13:44] <Hixie> i would just toggle a bit on the element itself
  351. # [13:45] <annevk> i've done it on the element stock, as Hixie said
  352. # [13:45] <annevk> that seems to work good for nested tables, etc.
  353. # [13:45] <Hixie> i hate the tainted stuff
  354. # [13:45] <Hixie> but i didn't see another solution
  355. # [13:46] <hsivonen> but that causes excessive stack traversal, doesn't it?
  356. # [13:46] <hsivonen> compared to constant-time inspection of the top of a taint stack
  357. # [13:47] <annevk> your idea would require making sure the taint stack is always correct
  358. # [13:47] <annevk> which might be tricky with nested tables
  359. # [13:47] <annevk> <table>X<tr><td><table></table></td> </table>
  360. # [13:47] <hsivonen> that depends on how many different cases there are where a table comes off the stack
  361. # [13:48] <annevk> that becomes "X <table>..." iirc
  362. # [13:48] <annevk> though spaces in the inner <table> should not be moved
  363. # [13:48] <Hixie> oh you really mean how do you keep track fo the "current table"
  364. # [13:48] <Hixie> and the answer is, yeah, optimise it to a separate stack
  365. # [13:49] <Hixie> i believe you can only pop a table using <table> or </table>, but i may be wrong
  366. # [13:49] <annevk> that could work, yes
  367. # [13:49] <hsivonen> hmm. let's see if an unoptimized impl. is good enough
  368. # [13:49] <annevk> not done in our python impl
  369. # [13:50] <annevk> hmm, two implementations not doing namespaces in the Selectors API so far...
  370. # [13:50] <annevk> hixie might have been on to something :)
  371. # [13:51] <Hixie> :-)
  372. # [13:52] <Hixie> btw i think you may have been onto something with dropping multiple views
  373. # [13:52] <Hixie> if you want support for that, i'm happy to give it to you
  374. # [13:52] <annevk> i currently specced it, deferring definitions of "view" and "default view" to HTML 5 :)
  375. # [13:53] <Hixie> hah
  376. # [14:00] <Hixie> bed time
  377. # [14:00] <Hixie> nn
  378. # [14:01] <annevk> g'n
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  392. # [15:39] <Philip`> Hixie: http://philip.html5.org/data/encoding-detection.svg shows the number of bytes required for the encoding detector
  393. # [15:41] <annevk> nice
  394. # [15:41] <Dashiva> What's the value at 4096?
  395. # [15:41] <annevk> the SVG looks pretty complex though
  396. # [15:43] <Philip`> Dashiva: 99.2%, I think
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  398. # [15:46] <Philip`> annevk: Blame Gnuplot :-p
  399. # [15:47] <Philip`> The biggest jump seems to be around 90, which is where people are saying <html> <head> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"> etc
  400. # [15:48] <Philip`> The worst was http://www.the-movie-times.com/thrsdir/actress/actressProfiles.mv?gclose which requires 90KB
  401. # [15:49] <Dashiva> Starts with a close tag, nice
  402. # [15:50] <Dashiva> And two sets of <html><head>etc...
  403. # [15:52] <Philip`> The are some other small spikes where people are doing doctype + html + head + meta
  404. # [15:52] <Philip`> which all makes sense and is not unexpected
  405. # [15:54] <hsivonen> Philip`: I don't see any line in the .svg in Firefox 3 or in Safari 3
  406. # [15:55] <hsivonen> it's another one of those SVG pages that makes safari autoquit on me
  407. # [15:55] <hsivonen> Opera renders it. weird
  408. # [15:55] <annevk> currentColor bug in Firefox maybe?
  409. # [15:56] <annevk> it uses color:red; stroke:currentColor; to render the red color
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  411. # [15:56] * annevk remembers Firefox had such a bug
  412. # [15:56] <Philip`> hsivonen: Works for me in 2008030604 Minefield/3.0b5pre
  413. # [15:56] <hsivonen> that would explain it
  414. # [15:56] <Philip`> and in 2.0.0.12
  415. # [15:57] <hsivonen> oh. my build is out of date
  416. # [15:57] <hsivonen> I'm using beta3
  417. # [15:57] <hsivonen> seems to be the latest beta still, though
  418. # [15:58] <Philip`> Oops, my encoding detector didn't ignore comments
  419. # [15:58] * Philip` wonders if there are test cases somewhere
  420. # [15:59] <Philip`> Oh, they're in a hard to parse format so I won't bother
  421. # [16:00] <Philip`> and they don't match the current spec
  422. # [16:01] <annevk> hsivonen, you should download a nightly then i guess
  423. # [16:05] <Philip`> I see BOMs on zero pages
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  425. # [16:09] <annevk> is there an easy way to get a non-HTML element in IE?
  426. # [16:10] <zcorpan> colon in tag name?
  427. # [16:13] <annevk> if anyone has a better name for boolean = window.media.query(mediaquery) please let me know
  428. # [16:13] <annevk> i'm thinking of isQueryApplicable or something like that
  429. # [16:14] <annevk> or maybe it should be boolean window.media.supportsMedia(mediaquery)
  430. # [16:15] <annevk> s/Media/Medium/
  431. # [16:15] <annevk> let me know
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  433. # [16:15] <annevk> supportsMedium seems best so far, quite consistent with CSSOM too
  434. # [16:16] <Philip`> Should HTML5 look for e.g. <?xml version="1.0" encoding="ISO-8859-2"?> when finding the encoding?
  435. # [16:16] <Philip`> That would make e.g. http://bajkoland.com.pl/ work correctly
  436. # [16:16] <aroben> annevk: window.media.matchesQuery(mediaQuery) ?
  437. # [16:16] <zcorpan> hasQuery?
  438. # [16:17] <annevk> reason for the suggestion to remove query is http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom/#medialist btw
  439. # [16:18] <annevk> appendMedium / deleteMedium
  440. # [16:18] <annevk> aroben, yeah, something like that sounds better
  441. # [16:18] <annevk> so either matchesQuery or matchesMedium
  442. # [16:19] <aroben> annevk: is there a difference between a medium and a query?
  443. # [16:20] <annevk> medium takes a media query
  444. # [16:20] <annevk> that would be the case for either API
  445. # [16:20] <annevk> it's just that medium is already used
  446. # [16:21] <aroben> annevk: still not sure I understand the distinction
  447. # [16:21] <annevk> there's none, it's just a question of what name would be better
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  449. # [16:22] <aroben> annevk: window.media implements MediaList?
  450. # [16:22] <annevk> noo
  451. # [16:22] * aroben clearly needs to do some reading
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  453. # [16:23] <qwert666> Hi
  454. # [16:23] <annevk> my idea was that since MediaList.appendMedium already takes a media query it might make sense to call the x in window.media.x matchesMedium
  455. # [16:23] <annevk> so that authors get somewhat consistently named APIs
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  457. # [16:25] <aroben> annevk: seems like it should be "matchMedium" since "media" is plural
  458. # [16:25] <aroben> annevk: though that sounds like of strange too
  459. # [16:26] <annevk> yeah, but it's probably better than just query()
  460. # [16:28] <aroben> annevk: agreed, especially since query is both a noun and a verb
  461. # [16:29] <zcorpan> Philip`: i wouldn't like it, but it might be interesting to know how much it fixes and how much it breaks
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  470. # [17:12] <annevk> Philip`, don't really like that either and I believe that IE doesn't do it
  471. # [17:12] <annevk> otoh, if it makes more sites work... grmbl
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  474. # [17:24] <Philip`> http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc197026(VS.85).aspx - "Other browsers may return strings specific to themselves, for example "Opera" or "Mozilla"."
  475. # [17:24] <Philip`> At least they're not suggesting to use "Firefox" and making other Gecko users unhappy
  476. # [17:25] <annevk> i think for a while we said IE there
  477. # [17:25] <Philip`> In DocumentCompatibleInfo?
  478. # [17:26] <annevk> for userAgent
  479. # [17:26] <Philip`> That seems to be API for the new X-UA-Compatible thing
  480. # [17:26] <annevk> maybe I'm misunderstanding something
  481. # [17:26] <annevk> oh ok
  482. # [17:26] <annevk> ooh
  483. # [17:26] <annevk> X-UA-Compatible is evil
  484. # [17:27] <Philip`> (found via http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc304071(VS.85).aspx )
  485. # [17:28] <annevk> :after Pseudo-class lol
  486. # [17:29] <Lachy> http://www.wpdfd.com/issues/86/html_the_foundation_of_the_web/
  487. # [17:29] <Lachy> that's a really good article
  488. # [17:32] <Philip`> http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc288123(VS.85).aspx - "IHTMLWindow6" - they do quite like versioning
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  490. # [17:36] <annevk> minimalitis ftw
  491. # [17:39] <zcorpan> yeah, minimalitis is cool ;)
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  498. # [18:14] <annevk> hmm, http://intertwingly.net/blog/2008/03/07/Design-By-Attrition#c1204908912 is getting too cryptic
  499. # [18:14] * annevk -> supermarket
  500. # [18:18] <svl> invite Sam to help edit?
  501. # [18:23] <Philip`> It's comparatively easy for IE to support HTML namespaces, since they don't support XHTML and so they can (and do) have a non-XML-DOM API for their namespaces, whereas other browsers want to keep HTML and XHTML as similar as possible
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  507. # [19:07] <annevk> svl, edit what?
  508. # [19:08] <annevk> Philip`, the other problem is that pages depend on how <foo:bar> works
  509. # [19:08] <annevk> live.com uses IE namespaces for instance if I remember correctly and relies on other browers to do things in a different way
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  512. # [19:12] <Philip`> annevk: I assume it's depending mostly on how <foo:bar> works in the DOM, rather than just on how it's parsed
  513. # [19:12] <annevk> also on how it's parsed
  514. # [19:12] <annevk> <html xmlns:web
  515. # [19:13] <Philip`> Does it rely on <ns:foo/><ns:bar/> being adjacent in IE but being parent-child in other browsers?
  516. # [19:13] <annevk> i wouldn't expect that, but I don't know
  517. # [19:14] <Philip`> How else would it depend on how it's parsed?
  518. # [19:14] <annevk> I missed "just" in your above sentence btw
  519. # [19:14] <annevk> so I guess I agree :)
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  525. # [19:30] * annevk tries asking one more time about where all this "namespaced" HTML content will come from
  526. # [19:37] <svl> annevk: The way I interpreted Sam's "us" and "we" remark was that even though there's strong requests coming from the field, whatwg editors (e.g. you and hixie) seem to be ignoring it.
  527. # [19:37] <svl> And even though you're not ignoring it, and merely don't see a good solution yet, you also don't have time to really spend on finding a solution, on account of all the other things you're editing, and so the final specification will (in his view) be decided by inactivity, rather than design.
  528. # [19:37] <svl> The big bottleneck is lack of editors (see also that google geolocation api proposal). So maybe that's something where he can help out. I don't know how any spec for namespaces in HTML would be integrated or split off from other specs - but that seems to me to be something which can be worked out.
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  530. # [19:42] <annevk> well, you see to indicate that it's not a lack of editors, but of researches :)
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  532. # [19:53] <svl> I honestly don't know; I'm just a humble outsider with not nearly enough domain knowledge. Sam seems to believe that there's been enough research to move forward, though. I mostly think that rather than seeing you two clash on this, his strong belief in the necessity of a spec here is something which could be used to actually move things forward; entice him into actually doing the research...
  533. # [19:53] <svl> ...that you believe is still needed and he doesn't see (yet?). Which is probably easiest when starting from a concrete proposal...
  534. # [19:55] <annevk> i don't get how he goes from demand for silverlight to demand for namespaced HTML
  535. # [19:56] <svl> Does that really matter, though?
  536. # [19:57] <annevk> if there's no demand, why should we add it?
  537. # [20:02] <svl> Because there's small scale demand (e.g. the experiments Sam is doing himself), and enough people seeing opportunity which they believe will almost certainly translate into demand? Because it can't hurt to have other people explore options more fully?
  538. # [20:03] <svl> I understand it won't have priority for you personally if you don't see that demand, but you can still enable forward movement...
  539. # [20:09] * svl guesses he's basically trying to encourage you to say something like Jeff did in his latest comment.
  540. # [20:09] <svl> Anyway, I'm out for a bit.
  541. # [20:10] <annevk> kk
  542. # [20:10] * annevk ponders
  543. # [20:12] <Philip`> Does http://philip.html5.org/misc/xmlns-dom.html get double-spaced lines in IE6/IE7 on Windows?
  544. # [20:12] <Philip`> (It does in IE8 on Windows, but not in IE6 on Linux)
  545. # [20:12] <Philip`> (and not in Firefox or Opera on Linux)
  546. # [20:12] <billmason> No, I'm seeing single space in IE6/Windows XP.
  547. # [20:13] <billmason> Double space in IE8 in IE7 emulation mode, which is the only IE7 I have at hand.
  548. # [20:14] <Philip`> Okay, thanks
  549. # [20:14] <billmason> np
  550. # [20:14] <annevk> single space on Linux
  551. # [20:14] <annevk> IE7
  552. # [20:15] <Philip`> Does IE8's IE7 emulation actually work like IE7, or does it work the same as IE8 with the IE7 meta compatibility flag?
  553. # [20:15] <annevk> firefox is fixing da parsing bug
  554. # [20:15] <annevk> yay yay yay
  555. # [20:15] <Philip`> (where "IE8 with the IE7 meta compatibility flag" includes various bugs introduced in IE8, so it's not just a clone of the IE7 engine)
  556. # [20:16] <billmason> Not sure; haven't really hammered on it that much yet.
  557. # [20:16] <annevk> i'd expect IE8 with compat flag
  558. # [20:16] <annevk> otherwise they'd have 5 engines
  559. # [20:17] <Philip`> (Try <meta http-equiv=x-ua-compatible content=ie=7><foo xmlns=bar> to see the bug I'm thinking of)
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  582. # [23:04] * annevk wonders if <datagrid> is too generic
  583. # [23:09] <Hixie> how so?
  584. # [23:09] <Hixie> it's basically <xul:treegrid>
  585. # [23:10] <Hixie> Philip`: dude that graph is the awesomeness
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  587. # [23:10] <Hixie> and it seems 512 was a particularly good choice
  588. # [23:11] <Hixie> but i think we'll increase it to 2048
  589. # [23:11] <Hixie> Philip`: can you make a lin-log version of that graph? (log vertically)
  590. # [23:12] <Philip`> I suppose a useful amount to wait for is the first one or two response packets, but there's no way to tell how that corresponds to document size because the headers are variable length
  591. # [23:13] <Hixie> well in practice i doubt browsers are going to pay attention to our recommendation
  592. # [23:13] <Hixie> personally i would just use whatever data you have in the first 150ms or so
  593. # [23:13] <Hixie> maybe even less
  594. # [23:14] <Hixie> that is, i would only wait as long as the wait doesn't add real overhead to the render time
  595. # [23:14] <annevk> i don't quite get that concern because until you have data how can you render?
  596. # [23:15] <annevk> re: datagrid, it seems to be for tree and table like widgets, but maybe that's ok
  597. # [23:15] <gsnedders> Philip`, Hixie: what graph?
  598. # [23:15] <Philip`> Hixie: Something like http://philip.html5.org/data/encoding-detection-log.svg ?
  599. # [23:16] <Philip`> gsnedders: http://philip.html5.org/data/encoding-detection.svg
  600. # [23:16] <Dashiva> 0.001 is a really useful point :)
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  604. # [23:24] <Philip`> Dashiva: That's still an integer number of pages :-)
  605. # [23:25] <annevk> how many sites without the right <meta> ?
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  607. # [23:26] <Philip`> What is "the right <meta>"?
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  609. # [23:27] <annevk> <meta content=...charset...> or <meta charset=...>
  610. # [23:28] <Philip`> 126989 total, 89541 with <meta content>, 171 with <meta charset>
  611. # [23:29] <Philip`> Sniffer apparently finds 89695
  612. # [23:29] <Philip`> (with <meta something>)
  613. # [23:33] <Philip`> (The ones not found by the sniffer include <meta http-equiv="Content-Type"content="text/html; charset=windows-1252">, <meta http-equiv="Content-Type"content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-2">, <meta http-equiv="Content-Type"content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> and <meta http-equiv="Content-Type"content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
  614. # [23:33] <Philip`> so, uh, the first four I looked at are all exactly the same problem
  615. # [23:33] * Philip` smells a pattern
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  617. # [23:37] <Hixie> Philip`: hmm, i guess i should have suggested log on the horizontal axis
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  619. # [23:40] <Philip`> Hixie: Like http://philip.html5.org/data/encoding-detection-log.svg (reloaded)?
  620. # [23:41] <Hixie> yeah that's more like it
  621. # [23:41] <Hixie> thanks
  622. # [23:41] <Dashiva> What if you made it inverse log towards 100
  623. # [23:41] <Hixie> 512 really was a good choice
  624. # [23:41] <Hixie> completely by chance though :-)
  625. # [23:42] <Hixie> me posted on sam's blog
  626. # [23:42] <Philip`> Dashiva: Exponential?
  627. # [23:43] <Dashiva> Yeah
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  630. # [23:46] <Philip`> I'm not entirely sure how to do that sanely
  631. # [23:46] <Philip`> You can just zoom in on the graph anyway :-p
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  634. # Session Close: Sat Mar 08 00:00:00 2008

The end :)