/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-03-10 / end

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  5. # [09:47] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
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  46. # [13:05] <gsnedders> <http://diveintomark.org/archives/2008/03/09/no-fury-like-dracon-scorned#comment-11418> — and someone asking whether he means it
  47. # [13:06] <annevk> yeah, funny
  48. # [13:07] <annevk> although the person asking if he means it points to a page talking about XML
  49. # [13:07] <annevk> I wonder if that person doesn't realize that that's XML-as-HTML or something
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  51. # [13:18] <gsnedders> annevk: huh? what's XML-as-HTML?
  52. # [13:19] <annevk> anything XML (XHTML in this case) with a text/html media type...
  53. # [13:20] <gsnedders> annevk: I mean, in that context
  54. # [13:20] <gsnedders> annevk: the post he links to is about actual XML, Sam's blog that caused the issue is XML. What am I missing?
  55. # [13:20] <annevk> he points to something else in his comment
  56. # [13:20] <annevk> noah
  57. # [13:20] <gsnedders> annevk: that's about actual XML
  58. # [13:21] <gsnedders> annevk: it's all about things breaking due to trackbacks (which have no defined encoding)
  59. # [13:21] <annevk> no it's not
  60. # [13:21] <annevk> those pages have a text/html media type
  61. # [13:21] <gsnedders> Or at least the example given in it is XML?
  62. # [13:22] <gsnedders> those ones? at the time they didn't
  63. # [13:22] <annevk> they did
  64. # [13:22] <gsnedders> oh, I'm forgetting what's there.
  65. # [13:22] <gsnedders> The main body of the post is about actual XML
  66. # [13:25] <gsnedders> annevk: Noah's point I think, is that it can happen
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  100. # [16:06] <gsnedders> ooo… Apache 2.2.8 (unlike 2.0.54) returns 501 for a FO"O method
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  113. # [16:51] <gsnedders> token = %x21 / %x23 - %x27 / %x2A - %x2B / %x2D - %x2E / %x30 - %x39 / %x41 - %x5A / %x5E - %x7A / %x7C / %x7E
  114. # [16:51] <gsnedders> RFC2616 as ABNF. It doesn't map that easily.
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  117. # [17:14] <weinig> Hixie: ping
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  125. # [17:32] <gsnedders> does, "If a request being parsed, the server MUST respond with 400 (Bad Request); if a response being parsed, the client MUST notify the user of the error (e.g., by displaying a graphical error message, by sounding an audible warning, by logging the error in an error log).", seem reasonable?
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  127. # [17:40] <Philip`> Logging an error in an error log does not notify the user
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  130. # [17:54] <gsnedders> Philip`: That's really my issue. How do I phrase it any better, though?
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  132. # [17:58] <Philip`> What happens if there isn't a user? (e.g. if your HTTP client is part of search engine)
  133. # [17:59] <Philip`> (*search engine web crawler or whatever they're called nowadays)
  134. # [18:00] <gsnedders> true. it probably doesn't make sense to either log it then.
  135. # [18:05] <gsnedders> SHOULD report the error?
  136. # [18:06] <annevk> search engines have users too
  137. # [18:06] <annevk> you should probably define different classes of products though
  138. # [18:06] <annevk> at least for clients
  139. # [18:07] <annevk> so you can be specific
  140. # [18:08] <gsnedders> what sort of classes? … and robots?
  141. # [18:08] <gsnedders> what can you call the non-robot class, though?
  142. # [18:08] <gsnedders> user-controlled user-agent
  143. # [18:09] <annevk> web browsers?
  144. # [18:09] <gsnedders> annevk: but things like cURL too
  145. # [18:09] <annevk> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-conformance.html#conformance
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  158. # [18:57] <weinig> annevk: hi
  159. # [18:58] <weinig> annevk: Do you think that the SECURITY_ERR you define in the XHR spec will be the same one Hixie eventually defines for HTML5?
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  162. # [19:19] <Hixie> weinig: pong
  163. # [19:20] <weinig> hey Hixie, I was curious about the definition of a Security Exception
  164. # [19:20] <Hixie> yeah
  165. # [19:20] <Hixie> dunno yet
  166. # [19:20] <Hixie> probably the same as xhr's
  167. # [19:20] <weinig> Hixie: ok, that's fair
  168. # [19:21] <weinig> Hixie: so adding it to the list of Core DOM ones
  169. # [19:21] <weinig> as numero 18
  170. # [19:22] <weinig> Hixie: Firefox currently uses code 1000 and Opera uses code undefined for Canvas tainting security exceptions
  171. # [19:24] <annevk> weinig, that's my plan anyway :)
  172. # [19:24] <SadEagle> weinig: heh, I used INVALID_ACCESS_ERR :-)
  173. # [19:26] <Hixie> weinig: 18 seems fair to me, it's listed on http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Exception_Codes
  174. # [19:30] <weinig> Hixie: cool
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  181. # [20:15] <annevk> hsivonen, re: "elements are case-sensitive", for real? that's not really consistent
  182. # [20:16] <hsivonen> annevk: if we were dealing only with MathML, I'd agree with you
  183. # [20:16] <Hixie> i wonder if IE's implementation of namespaces is actually going to be a problem for IE implementing what hsivonen is suggesting
  184. # [20:17] <annevk> IE would need an XML DOM for HTML... that might be tricky for them
  185. # [20:17] <annevk> "XML DOM"
  186. # [20:17] <hsivonen> annevk: but keeping DOM consistency with camel casing is not feasible with allowing the SVG WG do their thing without a lookup table in the parser
  187. # [20:18] <Hixie> lookup table it is, then ;-)
  188. # [20:18] <hsivonen> annevk: other than case-sensitivity, how far did my email go off the rails?
  189. # [20:18] <Hixie> this namespace thing is gonna suck so much. whatever i end up doing, 70% of people will be pissed at me
  190. # [20:20] <annevk> rest seems fine
  191. # [20:20] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks
  192. # [20:20] <annevk> Hixie, at least 90% of the Web community won't care :)
  193. # [20:21] <Philip`> Hixie: write multiple competing specifications, so that everyone is happy with at least one, and then let implementors choose which one will survive
  194. # [20:21] <Philip`> and then abuse will be aimed at implementors for making the wrong choice, rather than at you
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  196. # [20:24] <Dashiva> Nah, he's the one who'll have to enter it into the standard :)
  197. # [20:26] <Hixie> Philip`: heh
  198. # [20:28] <Hixie> man i wish people would use the '-- ' signature convention
  199. # [20:28] <Hixie> i'm tired of having to cut out signatures :-P
  200. # [20:33] <Hixie> good lord
  201. # [20:33] * Hixie cuts out a huge discussion on the relative merits of <dl> vs <table>
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  211. # [20:47] <annevk> hsivonen, so my thinking is that a hardcoded lookup table is not that bad as new elements will always require some work
  212. # [20:48] <hsivonen> annevk: that's true
  213. # [20:49] <Dashiva> What if: SVG had used lowercase
  214. # [20:49] <Dashiva> Would things be a lot easier, or just a tiny bit?
  215. # [20:49] <annevk> tiny bit
  216. # [20:50] <annevk> lookup tables are not intrinsically hard
  217. # [20:50] <annevk> it would be a lot better though, from a consistency point of view with the rest of the Web platform
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  219. # [20:51] <Philip`> New elements may require only work that can be emulated by a DOM-manipulating script library for UAs that don't properly support the new feature yet
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  221. # [20:51] <Philip`> but that doesn't work if the new element won't be parsed properly
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  223. # [20:53] <annevk> so introduce lowercase elements :)
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  227. # [21:05] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-141208a86bfc3771)
  228. # [21:07] <virtuelv> tangentially relevant to html 5, http://schrodinger.sourceforge.net/press/DiracAnnounce060308.html
  229. # [21:07] * Quits: itpastorn (n=itpastor@139.57.227.87.static.th.siw.siwnet.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  230. # [21:09] <Dashiva> virtuelv: You mean the encoding error? ;)
  231. # [21:09] <virtuelv> :p
  232. # [21:11] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  233. # [21:13] * hsivonen notes "Dirac professional profiles are currently in the process of being standardized by SMPTE as VC-2 and standardization of full Dirac is planned for this year. "
  234. # [21:14] <annevk> that's better than Ogg Theora, no?
  235. # [21:15] <roc> yeah
  236. # [21:15] <roc> patent status unknown, though
  237. # [21:15] <roc> and likely to be bad
  238. # [21:16] <annevk> I thought they claimed they had that covered somehow?
  239. # [21:16] <annevk> probably too good to be true
  240. # [21:16] * Joins: jwalden (n=waldo@STRATTON-FOUR-NINETY-TWO.MIT.EDU)
  241. # [21:17] <roc> not as far as I know
  242. # [21:17] <roc> theora's also not looking good
  243. # [21:17] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) ("Leaving")
  244. # [21:17] <annevk> "While the BBC own some patents on Dirac, they have irrevocably granted a royalty-free licence for their Dirac-related patents to everyone. In addition, the BBC have checked (by extensive patent search) that Dirac does not infringe any third party patents, enabling the public to use Dirac for any imaginable purpose."
  245. # [21:18] <annevk> from Wikipedia
  246. # [21:18] <roc> oh really?
  247. # [21:18] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@c-71-58-69-205.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
  248. # [21:18] <roc> interesting
  249. # [21:18] <annevk> I remember having read that on the Dirac FAQ too
  250. # [21:18] <virtuelv> I think the patent thing was one of Dirac's driving forces
  251. # [21:18] <roc> I'll ask Chris to look into it
  252. # [21:19] <hsivonen> annevk: see Wikipedia talk page
  253. # [21:19] <roc> but I'm sure it's already been looked into so the situation can't be as simple as that
  254. # [21:19] <Hixie> my understanding is that dirac isn't an especially compelling codec, but i'm certainly no expert
  255. # [21:19] <annevk> http://dirac.sourceforge.net/faq.html#a6B
  256. # [21:20] <annevk> sketches it slightly differently
  257. # [21:20] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-141208a86bfc3771)
  258. # [21:21] <jgraham_> Hixie: Did you say you were working tables at the moment? Will it be any help if I post the latest iteration of the smart span algorithm for table headers to the list sooner rather than later?
  259. # [21:21] <Hixie> yes
  260. # [21:21] <Hixie> and yes
  261. # [21:21] <hsivonen> unsourced statements on wikipedia aren't of best thing for proving absence of patent threats
  262. # [21:21] <hsivonen> s/of best/the best/
  263. # [21:21] <jgraham_> hsivonen: It's nice to come home and find that someone has already written a long email for you :)
  264. # [21:22] <jgraham_> s/for you/so you don't have to/
  265. # [21:22] <hsivonen> jgraham_: :-)
  266. # [21:22] <jgraham_> Hixie: OK, will do
  267. # [21:23] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-ec6065e2b064b863)
  268. # [21:24] <jwalden> need the baseline necessarily be hyper-compelling?
  269. # [21:24] <jwalden> something moderately competitive, even if not top-of-the-line, seems good enough
  270. # [21:24] <jwalden> at least for starters
  271. # [21:26] <gsnedders> jwalden: it needs to be good enough to get implemented, and be known not to have patents
  272. # [21:27] * roc whistles
  273. # [21:27] * roc wishes this whole issue wasn't mired in secrecy
  274. # [21:28] <jwalden> finding codecs with implementations isn't really a problem
  275. # [21:29] <jwalden> and they claim they're on the patent thing
  276. # [21:29] <jwalden> or we can fud ourselves into doing nothing
  277. # [21:30] <roc> we're beyond FUD
  278. # [21:35] <gsnedders> "The tokeniser/parser MUST stop processing immediately. If a request is being parsed, the server MUST respond with 400 (Bad Request); if a response is being parsed, the client SHOULD report the error." — Does that sound all right?
  279. # [21:52] <Philip`> What does "report the error" mean?
  280. # [21:56] <gsnedders> yeah, I thought copying what XML says probably wasn't the best idea :)
  281. # [22:00] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-ec6065e2b064b863)
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  292. # [22:37] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-d4b9ecd9e7e4d5aa)
  293. # [22:44] <Philip`> http://diveintomark.org/archives/2008/03/09/no-fury-like-dracon-scorned#comment-11430 - U+FFFF wins again!
  294. # [22:45] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@198.214.235.188)
  295. # [22:46] * Quits: phsiao (n=shawn@nat/ibm/x-55cd2812b53136bb)
  296. # [22:46] <gsnedders> Philip`: it's too easy. it's not even fun trying nowadays
  297. # [22:47] <Philip`> I still can't resist when someone makes an explicit challenge :-(
  298. # [22:47] <gsnedders> Philip`: So childish :P
  299. # [22:47] <annevk> Philip`, awesome :)
  300. # [22:47] <hasather> haha
  301. # [22:48] <hsivonen> Philip`++
  302. # [22:49] <annevk> did you take a screenshot?
  303. # [22:50] <Philip`> annevk: No
  304. # [22:51] <gsnedders> http://stuff.gsnedders.com/plasmasturm_U+FFFF.pdf
  305. # [22:52] <Philip`> I'm not sure Safari's error reporting is an improvement over Firefox's or Opera's
  306. # [22:52] <gavin_> did that guy take down his site because of the problem you caused?
  307. # [22:52] <Philip`> I don't get that pink box when I look at it myself, but the error text is similarly unreadable
  308. # [22:53] <gsnedders> make that .png
  309. # [22:53] <gsnedders> paparazzi is less than ideal at exporting to pdf
  310. # [22:53] <hsivonen> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/screen/plasmasturm-ffff.png
  311. # [22:53] <hsivonen> a .png
  312. # [22:54] <gsnedders> http://stuff.gsnedders.com/plasmasturm_U+FFFF.png
  313. # [22:54] <gsnedders> a .png :)
  314. # [22:55] <Philip`> At least the page renders fine in Konqueror
  315. # [22:56] <roc> doesn't that make Konqueror evil?
  316. # [22:56] <Philip`> Yes
  317. # [22:56] <Philip`> (As far as I'm aware, it uses a text/html parser for application/xhtml+xml)
  318. # [22:56] * SadEagle hides
  319. # [22:56] <SadEagle> I blame QXML!
  320. # [22:58] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  321. # [22:58] * Quits: jgraham (n=james@81-86-216-20.dsl.pipex.com) ("I get eaten by the worms")
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  326. # [23:10] * jgraham__ wonders where he lost all his table headers tests
  327. # [23:11] <jgraham__> Lesson learnt: revision control is less useful when you've only made imaginary checkins
  328. # [23:14] <Dashiva> Kinda like how keeping backups on the same drive as the original data isn't really backed up
  329. # [23:15] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-d4b9ecd9e7e4d5aa) (kubrick.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
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  331. # [23:15] * Quits: Philip` (n=philip@zaynar.demon.co.uk) (kubrick.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
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  335. # [23:16] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-d4b9ecd9e7e4d5aa)
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  337. # [23:16] * Joins: Philip` (n=philip@zaynar.demon.co.uk)
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  342. # [23:23] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-d4b9ecd9e7e4d5aa)
  343. # [23:25] <Philip`> (I suppose I should refrain from pointing at http://blog.codedread.com/?s=%00 and http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/cgi-bin/MT-3.0/mt-search.cgi?Template=%00 )
  344. # [23:26] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-eb0a7f2d94c00a7a)
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  346. # [23:28] * Quits: qwert666_ (n=qwert666@etn77.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) ("Leaving")
  347. # [23:29] <jgraham__> Philip`: Clearly someone needs to flip your evil bit :)
  348. # [23:30] * gsnedders flips Philip`'s evil bit
  349. # [23:30] * Quits: jgraham (n=james@81-86-216-20.dsl.pipex.com) (Client Quit)
  350. # [23:37] <Philip`> I'm not sure whether that means my evil bit is currently set or not
  351. # [23:38] <jgraham__> Does that make it an evil qbit?
  352. # [23:39] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  353. # [23:41] * Hixie looks at Philip` to collapse his wavefunction
  354. # [23:42] * Joins: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober)
  355. # [23:42] * Philip` refuses to collapse, and instead entangles Hixie
  356. # [23:42] <Hixie> yikes
  357. # [23:42] <gsnedders> this isn't looking good.
  358. # [23:43] <SadEagle> hixie's evil bit is always set, though
  359. # [23:43] * Hixie wonders what would happen if he looked at _himself_
  360. # [23:43] <Dashiva> Hixie: Ask the cat
  361. # [23:44] <Hixie> SadEagle: so that means Philip`'s is unset, right?
  362. # [23:44] <Hixie> assuming conservation of evilness
  363. # [23:44] <SadEagle> aren't you the physicist here, or am I confusing things?
  364. # [23:44] <Hixie> jgraham__ and Philip` are more physicsy, i
  365. # [23:44] <Hixie> have been out of hte loop for years
  366. # [23:44] <Philip`> Conservation of evilness doesn't tell you anything unless you know how much evil the closed system started with
  367. # [23:45] <Hixie> when then how does entangling me help?
  368. # [23:45] * gsnedders needs to decide whether to continue to be physicsy after next year
  369. # [23:45] <Philip`> I'm not physicsy, I only did it for a year and then didn't mind abandoning it :-)
  370. # [23:45] <Hixie> wait i thought you were phiscsy right now?
  371. # [23:46] <Philip`> I'm computery
  372. # [23:46] <Hixie> oh ok
  373. # [23:46] <jgraham__> I only did one course on quantum computation, which was a while ago
  374. # [23:47] * Philip` just about understood some of the quantum maths stuff, but totally failed to follow the explanations of quantum algorithms
  375. # [23:47] <jgraham__> But I think if Hixe and Philip have entangled qubits you could entangle them to have the same value or different values
  376. # [23:48] <jwalden> mm, qubits
  377. # [23:48] * jwalden longs to play qubit in a Scrabble game
  378. # [23:48] * gsnedders has never done quantum physics/computation
  379. # [23:48] <Philip`> You could have an entangled state like (|00>+|11>)/sqrt(2) so they'd both be the same value, or like (|01>+|10>)/sqrt(2) so they'd be different
  380. # [23:48] <gsnedders> and the only time I've tried to get my head around it, I came out understanding less than when I started
  381. # [23:50] <Philip`> gsnedders: It's kind of fun in a slightly insane way :-)
  382. # [23:51] * gsnedders ought to email you and James about May, now I know exactly when I'll be around
  383. # [23:51] * Philip` has no idea exactly when he'll be around
  384. # [23:52] <annevk> Hixie, on the Window IDL frames should be moved under "self"
  385. # [23:52] <annevk> Hixie, it's not about other browsing contexts per se as it simply points to itself
  386. # [23:52] <Philip`> (except that I'm rarely not around, and tend not to have any kind of inflexible scheduling, so things tend to be alright)
  387. # [23:52] <gsnedders> Philip`, jgraham__: the Saturday will be taken up more or less entirely with my Grandmother's memorial service, and being with family — the only possible time would be before lunch, but I really want to head around Cam. then. I'm going back on Sunday, which leaves on Friday evening
  388. # [23:53] <gsnedders> s/on/only/
  389. # [23:53] <jgraham__> gsnedders: Friday evening will be fine for me (as in "this is long enough before May that, barring any unexpected significant event, I can make it fine")
  390. # [23:54] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@109.80-202-65.nextgentel.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  391. # [23:54] <gsnedders> jgraham__: well, if something huge comes up (or the train is _really_ late, then I couldn't go either :P
  392. # [23:55] <gsnedders> (but when I say _really_ late, I mean _I've never seen it that late_ late, when I've gone to Cam. by trains far too many times)
  393. # [23:55] * Philip` is in the same situation as jgraham__
  394. # [23:56] <gsnedders> which leaves location, but that's probably better dealt with in May :P
  395. # [23:56] <jgraham__> gsnedders: Sure. Location can be improvised
  396. # [23:57] <gsnedders> (it would probably suit me best to have dinner/supper/whatever-you-want-to-call-it with you two)
  397. # [23:58] <jgraham__> Also fine.
  398. # [23:58] <jgraham__> (for me)
  399. # [23:58] * Philip` sometimes calls it lunch, depending on when he wakes up
  400. # [23:58] <gsnedders> But there are plenty of places to eat in Cambridge
  401. # [23:58] <gsnedders> Philip`: oh, my mother always calls lunch/supper the wrong way around
  402. # Session Close: Tue Mar 11 00:00:00 2008

The end :)