/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-03-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Mar 12 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] * jgraham isn't sure call people viewing your page an "effective feedback loop" works so well when you are also hoping to call them "customers"
  4. # [00:00] <jgraham> s/call/calling/
  5. # [00:03] <Philip`> I never give feedback to a site's owner, I just complain about their site on IRC or blog comments and it's not my problem if they don't notice it
  6. # [00:04] <Philip`> I suppose it's half a feedback loop, but the other half is just some ragged dangling ends that might happen to meet up if they're lucky
  7. # [00:08] <Philip`> It would be more effective to have some output filter which checks well-formedness of every HTTP reponse and emails the site owner if there's a problem, and then the filter might as well try to correct the error in a generally sensible way, and then you might as well not generate proper XML at all since you can rely on the filter to clean up after you
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  9. # [00:17] <Philip`> and then you might as well find someone else to write the error-correcting part of that filter for you, preferably someone with lots of developers and QA people, like a web browser developer, and then you can call the filter "an HTML parser"
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  11. # [00:25] <Hixie> hsivonen, annevk: i have to assume that they have something else they call the forms task force
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  14. # [00:27] <roc> eseidel_: hacked on the XBL2 spec or hacked on the Gecko XBL1 implementation?
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  17. # [00:30] <eseidelDesk> roc: gecko
  18. # [00:31] <eseidelDesk> roc: gecko xbl
  19. # [00:31] <eseidelDesk> roc: my point being that few have hacked on gecko svg
  20. # [00:31] <roc> few have hacked on XBL too really
  21. # [00:31] <eseidelDesk> roc: hence why I asked
  22. # [00:31] <eseidelDesk> since I don't actually know :)
  23. # [00:31] <roc> hyatt created it, then mainly sicking and bz
  24. # [00:31] <eseidelDesk> k
  25. # [00:33] <roc> SVG was probably broader, started by Alex Fritze and then tor, jwatt, longsonr, and me have all done significant work
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  63. # [04:58] <Hixie> heh, this e-mail talking about discovery was itself subject to discovery, that's funny: http://edge-op.org/iowa/www.iowaconsumercase.org/011607/0000/PX00622.pdf
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  66. # [05:33] <jwalden> hah
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  78. # [07:58] <Hixie> 67% complete in categorising the table feedback, yay
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  80. # [08:04] <Hixie> 85%
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  82. # [08:20] <Hixie> woot, sorted all teh feedback for tables
  83. # [08:20] <Hixie> now i guess i have to read it!
  84. # [08:21] <Hixie> well this is weird
  85. # [08:23] <Hixie> for all the talk about headers/id, there's very little work on it other than what ben and james have done
  86. # [08:26] <Hixie> so i guess what i'm going to have to do is implement this table cell/header association algorithm
  87. # [08:26] <Hixie> skipping step 1
  88. # [08:26] <Hixie> and see if it gives better or worse results than just obeying header/id
  89. # [08:27] <Hixie> to determine if header/id is used correctly or not
  90. # [08:27] <Hixie> if header/id is used correctly and the algorithm gets the same result, then we might as well use the algorithm
  91. # [08:28] <Hixie> if header/id is used correctly but the algorithm gets the wrong results, then we probably need header/id
  92. # [08:28] <Hixie> if header/id is used incorrectly the vast majority of the time, then it doesn't much matter, we should probably drop it anyway
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  112. # [13:07] <hsivonen> aargh. lynx from MacPorts and lynx from fink break lines differently
  113. # [13:07] * hsivonen is diffing the lynx text dump of the spec
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  120. # [13:42] <annevk> hsivonen, web-apps-tracker is no good?
  121. # [13:43] <annevk> http://blog.kilobox.mobi/2008/03/02/whatwg-are-you-creating-html/
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  124. # [13:49] <zcorpan_> annevk: i guess it's harder to read with all the markup
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  127. # [13:56] <hsivonen> annevk: not enough context
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  129. # [13:57] * hsivonen diffs with -U 200
  130. # [13:58] <hsivonen> annevk: also, there have been too many interdependent changes in the tokenizer, so I find I can't do spec rev by spec rev, bug by bug patching
  131. # [13:58] <hsivonen> instead, I'm sweeping over the diff of the entire chapter in one go
  132. # [13:58] <annevk> I suppose we could make context an option
  133. # [14:01] <hsivonen> the main problem is that the tracker doesn't say what the heading before a given change was
  134. # [14:01] <hsivonen> so it isn't obvious which tokenizer state or insertion mode is affected
  135. # [14:03] <annevk> philip asked about that too
  136. # [14:03] <annevk> that would be a bit tricky though
  137. # [14:03] <annevk> i suppose you could make a diff with a lot of context
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  139. # [14:03] <annevk> then traverse back from the changes until you hit <hx>, and drop everything before that or so
  140. # [14:04] <hsivonen> I think a large context alone is good enough
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  143. # [14:21] <annevk> hsivonen, ok, there's now a context feature
  144. # [14:22] <annevk> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=1356&to=1357&context=70
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  146. # [14:29] <hsivonen> annevk: cool. thank you
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  150. # [14:54] <Dashiva> annevk: Is that blog viewable without a mobile device?
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  153. # [14:56] <Philip`> Dashiva: It seems to be perfectly viewable on my non-mobile computer
  154. # [14:57] <Dashiva> I guess it's just my connection that sucks then
  155. # [14:57] <Dashiva> I need a RART
  156. # [14:57] <Philip`> A regional asset recovery team?
  157. # [14:58] <Dashiva> A router attitude readjustment tool
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  159. # [15:00] * hsivonen notes that requiring spaces between a quoted attribute value and the next attribute name will make valid HTML4 invalid.
  160. # [15:02] <zcorpan_> that's true
  161. # [15:02] * Philip` would estimate that to be about zero HTML4 documents in practice
  162. # [15:04] <zcorpan_> Philip`: how about any HTML documents (not just counting valid HTML4)?
  163. # [15:04] <Philip`> I still estimate about zero
  164. # [15:04] <Philip`> based on no data, except I don't remember ever seeing people intentionally omit spaces between attributes
  165. # [15:05] <Philip`> (so my view doesn't really count)
  166. # [15:05] <zcorpan_> i don't either, but i have seen it in some text/html-XHTML documents (so it was not intentional)
  167. # [15:05] <hsivonen> Philip`: actually, when the W3C Validator fixed this for XHTML, there were (angry) people who found their previously 'valid' pages were in fact invalid
  168. # [15:06] <zcorpan_> would be interesting to see if pages that lack spaces between attributes do so because of mismatching quotes or not
  169. # [15:07] <zcorpan_> (since that's what the new requirement is supposed to help with)
  170. # [15:07] <Philip`> Oh, maybe it's more common that I expected
  171. # [15:08] <Philip`> I see /<[a-z]+ [a-z]+="([^"]+)"[a-z]/ on about ...
  172. # [15:08] <zcorpan_> also, perhaps the other new requirements are sufficient for catching mismatched quotes
  173. # [15:08] <hsivonen> Hixie: any particular reason why < didn't become invalid in unquoted attribute values along =, ' and ?
  174. # [15:08] * Philip` waits for it to continue finding matches
  175. # [15:09] <Philip`> ... lots of pages
  176. # [15:10] <Philip`> About 5K (out of 130K), plus lots of margin of error
  177. # [15:11] <Philip`> though it looks like a lot of them are from the same site
  178. # [15:11] <Philip`> (which says <d
  179. # [15:11] <Philip`> iv id="gb_city/cottonwood-az_5"class="act_gbar" style="left: 25px; height: 18px" ></div>)
  180. # [15:11] <Philip`> (...without the line wrapping)
  181. # [15:13] <zcorpan_> i guess the whitespace between attributes requirement has a high noise to signal ratio
  182. # [15:13] <Philip`> <font face="arial color="silver">X - Y - </font>
  183. # [15:14] <zcorpan_> quote in attribute name would catch that one
  184. # [15:14] <Philip`> is the only error I've found after seeing about a dozen that are simply skipping the space
  185. # [15:15] <Philip`> <img src="http://www.w3.org/Icons/valid-xhtml10"alt="Valid XHTML 1.0!" height="31" width="88" /> - hmm
  186. # [15:15] <zcorpan_> heh
  187. # [15:16] <hsivonen> lol
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  189. # [15:17] * Philip` goes away for a while
  190. # [15:18] <zcorpan_> i can't come up with a case where requiring whitespace between attributes helps to catch mistakes that quotes in attribute names don't
  191. # [15:20] <zcorpan_> unless *two* quotes were omitted, e.g. <input value="foo disabled="disabled>
  192. # [15:20] <zcorpan_> but that's very unlikely
  193. # [15:20] <hsivonen> I am not opposed to making it an error, fwiw. (at least not yet)
  194. # [15:21] <zcorpan_> if it doesn't catch any harmful mistakes, isn't it just adding noise to the list of validation messages?
  195. # [15:22] <hsivonen> that's a possibility
  196. # [15:23] <hsivonen> though this way the tokenizer spec comes closer to be hackable into an XML5 tokenizer that reports XML 1.0 4th ed. errors non-fatally
  197. # [15:25] <hsivonen> every time I patch Ælfred2 I come closer to biting the bullet and turning the Validator.nu HTML parser into a non-Draconian XML parser as well.
  198. # [15:25] <hsivonen> if it weren't for DTDs (internal subset in particular), I'd be hacking on that right now
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  200. # [15:26] <zcorpan_> there are more html authors that validate their documents than there are non-drocanian xml tokenizer implementors
  201. # [15:26] <hsivonen> true
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  204. # [15:35] <gsnedders> zcorpan_: even among feed readers?
  205. # [15:47] <hsivonen> the recipe at http://www.w3.org/QA/2008/03/html-charset.html contradics the HTML 5 spec
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  207. # [15:56] <hasather_> annevk: the tracker uses -p for the diff command which makes it output "function receiver(e) {" and other garbage on each "@@"-line
  208. # [16:01] <zcorpan_> gsnedders: i would think so, yes
  209. # [16:07] <hsivonen> for some reason, the "HTML" page on wikipedia draws a lot of vandalism
  210. # [16:07] <hsivonen> much more than e.g. XHTML
  211. # [16:08] <gsnedders> hsivonen: but it says it isn't obsolete! it must be wrong!
  212. # [16:09] <hsivonen> aside: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MathML#Example
  213. # [16:10] <gsnedders> brilliant example of why I hate MathML. It takes _so_ much code to represent anything.
  214. # [16:10] <hsivonen> Hixie: I think the MathML example is so bad the we should concede to converters being necessary and shouldn't try to make stuff implied in the text/html parser
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  217. # [16:43] <Philip`> If I look for /<[a-z]+ [a-z]+="([^"]+)"[a-z][^= ]*/ in the subset of the 130K pages that have a URI whose MD5 starts with '8', then I find things like
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  219. # [16:43] <Philip`> <table width="100% align="center">
  220. # [16:43] <Philip`> <a href="<div align="center">
  221. # [16:43] <Philip`> <a href="pages/leaders.html"Leadership"">
  222. # [16:43] <Philip`> <img src="http://cgi.knc.ne.jp/cgi/counter/counter.pl?USER=cci&URL=index.html"alt"=counter align="bottom" width="35" height="16" border="0">
  223. # [16:43] <Philip`> <a title="Ver Video class="VERVIDEOLINK" 2005" onfocus="this.blur()" onclick="NewWindow(this.href,'vervideo','625','420','no','center');return false" href="http://raremusicvideos.org/videos/L7-the-word.html">
  224. # [16:44] <Philip`> <a href="http://www.myrope.com/"index.asp" target="_top">
  225. # [16:44] <Philip`> <noscript><A HREF="http://www.world1000.com"> <img src="http://w108.hitbox.com/Hitbox?cd=1&bt;&hb;</A> </noscript><script language="javascript1.2">
  226. # [16:44] <Philip`> and several more that are simply forgetting a closing '"'
  227. # [16:46] <Philip`> Oops, I meant /<[a-z]+ [a-z]+="([^"]+)"[a-z][^= ]*"/
  228. # [16:47] <zcorpan_> all of those are covered by banning " in attribute names, afaict
  229. # [16:47] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  230. # [16:48] <Philip`> It would probably be much more useful if I looked for all the cases that hit the relevant parse error in the tokeniser, but that would take more effort than I want to bother with now
  231. # [16:49] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  232. # [16:49] <zcorpan_> i think this is useful enough data for sending to the list
  233. # [16:50] <Philip`> Given what I was searching for, I don't think it'd be possible to find anything that wouldn't be interpreted as a quote in an attribute name
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  235. # [16:52] <zcorpan_> good point :)
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  237. # [17:10] <zcorpan_> hmm, getAttribute() returns the empty string instead of null in ie8 if the attribute is absent
  238. # [17:17] <Philip`> Is that consistent with other browsers?
  239. # [17:18] * Philip` wonders why his spec-processing script creates output saying "<a�href="a">a<table><a�href="b">b</table>x" with something funny in place of the spaces, only in that particular instance and nowhere else in the document
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  244. # [17:23] <SadEagle> Philip`: that's consistent with DOM, but not with the web.
  245. # [17:23] <SadEagle> Or is it other way around?
  246. # [17:24] <SadEagle> no, I got it right the first time around.
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  248. # [17:25] <SadEagle> Philip`: the classic yahoo mail at least used to depend on getAttribute("missing") returning null.
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  253. # [17:33] <zcorpan_> hmm, i think <input type=number value=""> should be valid html5
  254. # [17:34] <zcorpan_> (haven't checked the spec but V.nu says it's invalid)
  255. # [17:37] <annevk> they implemented getAttribute() per spec? classic...
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  257. # [17:38] <zcorpan_> i guess they went through the dom 2 core testsuite
  258. # [17:39] <SadEagle> did they start throwing WRONG_DOCUMENT_ERR too?
  259. # [17:40] <zcorpan_> dunno
  260. # [17:40] <zcorpan_> not very unexpectedly, they made changes to quirks mode and ie7 mode too
  261. # [17:41] <annevk> which makes their claims about "not breaking the Web" a lot less convincing...
  262. # [17:42] <annevk> it does further the cause of making Trident near impossible to imitate
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  264. # [17:42] <hsivonen> rubys: hi
  265. # [17:43] <rubys> hsivonen: what do you mean by "above-dom"?
  266. # [17:43] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@70-14-45-191.area3.spcsdns.net)
  267. # [17:43] <hsivonen> rubys: I mean code that reads the DOM
  268. # [17:43] <Philip`> It makes people's claims that IE would contain three independent frozen-in-time rendering engines incorrect
  269. # [17:43] <hsivonen> rubys: the SVG and MathML renderers
  270. # [17:43] <hsivonen> (and scripts that access the DOM, too)
  271. # [17:43] <annevk> Philip`, yes, that was me :)
  272. # [17:44] <rubys> cool.
  273. # [17:44] <annevk> guess I was ill informed
  274. # [17:46] <hsivonen> have I understood correctly that the IE8 CSS renderer shares the DOM impl. with the IE7 and IE5.5 modes?
  275. # [17:46] <hsivonen> but the DOM impl changes some of its behavior conditionally?
  276. # [17:48] <annevk> i think that's the case, yes
  277. # [17:48] <annevk> versioned APIs or something
  278. # [17:48] <Philip`> Would <style>a[title]{color:green}</style><a title>example</a> be a way of testing that, given what zcorpan_ said about IE8 dropping attributes?
  279. # [17:49] <annevk> probably or hasAttribute("title") maybe
  280. # [17:51] <Philip`> http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc288472(VS.85).aspx - "The alt attribute is no longer displayed as the image tooltip when the browser is running in IE8 mode. Instead, the target of the longDesc attribute is used as the tooltip if present; otherwise, the title is displayed."
  281. # [17:51] * Philip` hadn't seen that before
  282. # [17:52] <billmason> Given how much people mung up the content of the longdesc attribute, I have to wonder about the virtue of exposing it that way.
  283. # [17:53] <hsivonen> is there a screenshot of the longdesc thing happening?
  284. # [17:53] <Philip`> Given how little people use longdesc, it doesn't matter too much what you do with it
  285. # [17:53] <billmason> True.
  286. # [17:54] * Philip` wonders what it'll do on Wikipedia images
  287. # [17:54] <annevk> hsivonen, is MathML just verbose or is it not possible to get Math compact in XML/HTML markup?
  288. # [17:56] <gsnedders> annevk: the latter
  289. # [17:56] <hsivonen> annevk: as far as I can tell, math requires lots of layout boxes, although CSS can have anonymous boxes, tweakable boxes practically have to be elements. that translates into very verbose markup
  290. # [17:56] <Philip`> Does <tex>e^{i\pi}=2</tex> count as "XML/HTML markup"?
  291. # [17:57] <hsivonen> Philip`: at least it would take anonymous box generation to a whole new level...
  292. # [17:57] <hsivonen> (I'm assuming here that we want a solution that integrates at least semi-sanely with a CSS formatter)
  293. # [17:58] <Philip`> At some level of abstraction <span>test test-test test&shy;test test</span> does complex anonymous-box-like stuff to separate and wrap words
  294. # [17:58] <rubys> http://www.w3.org/TR/mathml-for-css/
  295. # [17:58] <Philip`> (and I don't know what level of abstraction is the right one to look from)
  296. # [17:59] <hsivonen> rubys: not sufficient for Musings
  297. # [17:59] <rubys> understood, but he assumes that the spec is unchanging
  298. # [17:59] <rubys> if, however, you assume that the spec can be fixed, then it no longer is an HTML5 problem.
  299. # [18:00] <annevk> hsivonen, tweakable boxes could be ::foo
  300. # [18:01] <hsivonen> I'm assuming that in the near term fixing SVG and MathML as they are processed above the DOM should be out of scope for the WHATWG
  301. # [18:01] <hsivonen> I do think that the MathML 3 spec can still change, though
  302. # [18:02] <hsivonen> which reminds me that I should follow up on some of my comments on MathML 3
  303. # [18:03] <rubys> opera's direction (last I heard) was to do mathml via css. Whether they do so, or don't do so, and whether their doing so is sufficient for Musings is not a problem that the HTML5 working group needs to solve.
  304. # [18:03] <rubys> Preventing MathML from being styled via CSS would be bad.
  305. # [18:04] <hsivonen> rubys: I agree on both counts
  306. # [18:04] <rubys> cool. I see the HTML5's WG's job to get the markup into the DOM. And that's as far as the job goes.
  307. # [18:04] <hsivonen> but as it stands, presentational MathML has useful bits that can't be emulated with a generic XML tree and CSS3
  308. # [18:04] <rubys> then opera may have a problem with their approach.
  309. # [18:04] <hsivonen> so I think Gecko's MathML code and MathPlayer will still be relevant
  310. # [18:06] <rubys> if HTML5's HTML 5 deserialization produces the same result as HTML5's XHTML5 deserialization of equivalent documents (modulo syntax differences only), then the HTML5 working group's job is done.
  311. # [18:06] <hsivonen> rubys: I agree
  312. # [18:07] <hsivonen> which is why I think part of the solution is already constrained more than Hixie's email suggested
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  314. # [18:10] <billmason> Philip`: I don't see IE8 doing anything with displaying longdesc in a tooltip, so I guess their documention is, as they say, 'preliminary'....
  315. # [18:11] <Philip`> billmason: Okay, thanks
  316. # [18:11] <Philip`> billmason: Do you know if they still display alt in the tooltip?
  317. # [18:12] <billmason> They do not, from what I'm seeing in a quick test.
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  321. # [18:14] * Philip` sees that IE8 has added CSS printing support for widows and orphans, and thinks it is good that they are supporting broken families
  322. # [18:15] <hsivonen> didn't someone say that the IE7 engine was still used for printing?
  323. # [18:15] <billmason> I think their release notes say it, but I'm not looking at them right this moment.
  324. # [18:16] * billmason finds the notes, and yes it's in the notes
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  326. # [18:17] <hsivonen> hmm. not a total freeze of the IE7 CSS formatter then?
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  328. # [18:19] <Philip`> It's still quite possible that they've only added to the IE8 CSS print formatter, but the current beta uses IE7 for printing
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  375. # [21:23] <annevk> http://www.xs4all.nl/~egbg/counterscript.html
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  396. # [22:26] <Dashiva> So what's the "right" way to get an arbitrary character sequence as a horizontal list delimiter. I'm stumped.
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  399. # [22:28] <Philip`> Argh
  400. # [22:28] <Philip`> Remind me not to type "<meta http-equiv=x-ua-compatible" into the Live DOM Viewer, because it crashes IE before I get to the end
  401. # [22:29] <Philip`> Hmm, it just doesn't like not having a content attribute
  402. # [22:30] <takkaria> heh
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  404. # [22:31] <gsnedders> hmm, I can't find anything in the XML PER that disallows characters not in Char
  405. # [22:33] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/tests/ie8/x-ua-compatible-crash.html
  406. # [22:34] <Philip`> It's great how the "Internet Explorer has stopped working" dialog box pops up in the background where I can't see it and won't notice it unless I happen to look at the taskbar
  407. # [22:34] <gsnedders> ah. here we go.
  408. # [22:34] <gsnedders> "Taken as a whole, it matches the production labeled document."
  409. # [22:37] <gsnedders> only the surrogate blocks, U+FFFE, and U+FFFF are disallowed. odd.
  410. # [22:37] <Lachy> annevk, othermaciej_ for selectors api, what are your thoughts about changing the interface to a single NodeSelector interface that is implemented by Documents, Elements and DocumentFragments?
  411. # [22:42] <annevk> wfm
  412. # [22:43] <Philip`> Hmm, I can't type a # (ctrl+alt+3) into IE8
  413. # [22:48] <othermaciej_> Lachy: no problem with it
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  423. # [23:05] <Lachy> ok, I'll make the change next time I edit the spec
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  427. # [23:16] <othermaciej> wow, mathml is way uglier than I thought
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  429. # [23:22] <roc> is MathML in Acid3?
  430. # [23:23] <SadEagle> don't think so.
  431. # [23:23] * aroben is now known as aroben|dinner
  432. # [23:23] <othermaciej> no
  433. # [23:23] <roc> bummer, that's an oversight on our part :-)
  434. # [23:23] <Lfe> roc: you can read about what tests acid3 consists of here: http://www.webstandards.org/action/acid3/
  435. # [23:24] <othermaciej> but I was just looking at the example that hsivonen sent a link to
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  437. # [23:24] <othermaciej> where the quadratic formula takes 30 lines of XML to express
  438. # [23:25] <SadEagle> it's not meant to be human-readable...
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  440. # [23:25] <Philip`> It only takes one line
  441. # [23:25] <SadEagle> seems like almost everyone converts to it from TeX or TeX-like syntax
  442. # [23:25] <Philip`> once you remove the whitespace
  443. # [23:25] <gsnedders> Philip`: :P
  444. # [23:25] <Philip`> since it's not like the whitespace makes it any more readable
  445. # [23:25] <othermaciej> and then the "semantic" 40-line version
  446. # [23:25] <othermaciej> it just makes me wonder what the point is
  447. # [23:26] <roc> I think the big lesson is that XML is rubbish for token-oriented languages like math and source code
  448. # [23:26] <othermaciej> humans can't read or write it, or probably even understand it enough to usefully apply CSS styling or scripting based on the MathML markup
  449. # [23:26] <Philip`> Most humans can't read or write HTML, but it's still useful for them
  450. # [23:27] <roc> othermaciej: you could say the same about SVG
  451. # [23:27] <SadEagle> othermaciej: I guess one could say that it should inherit fonts, etc., but then math fonts are special, anyway
  452. # [23:27] <othermaciej> the idea of CSS styling SVG is a little silly, but scripting it isn't totally insane
  453. # [23:27] <roc> and I think you'd be partially right, in both cases, but also partially wrong
  454. # [23:28] <roc> given decent inspector tools, it's not that hard to figure out how to script and style MathML or SVG
  455. # [23:29] <othermaciej> this is the link I'm talking about fwiw: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MathML#Example
  456. # [23:30] * SadEagle wonders about the quality of MathML rendering..
  457. # [23:30] * gsnedders can't render MathML well
  458. # [23:31] <roc> try ours
  459. # [23:31] <othermaciej> I guess what I'm saying is, I'm not sure that MathML is better than a <math> element which just contains magically parsed/rendered expressions would have been
  460. # [23:31] <roc> well
  461. # [23:31] <SadEagle> othermaciej: well, things like selection, etc, matter.
  462. # [23:31] <othermaciej> whereas for SVG there's no obvious better way to do it
  463. # [23:31] <roc> do you construct a math DOM or not?
  464. # [23:31] <SadEagle> of course, in most cased people just put up a PDF
  465. # [23:32] <othermaciej> gotta go for now
  466. # [23:32] <roc> if you don't, then you basically make scripting and styling impossible
  467. # [23:32] <annevk> I wonder if for text/html math could be done in such a way that you don't need to write most of the elements
  468. # [23:32] <jgraham> roc: MathML isn't in ACID3 because it doesn't have a widely implemented DOM API to test
  469. # [23:32] <annevk> they would be generated during parsing
  470. # [23:32] <roc> if you do, then using non-XML syntax could be confusing
  471. # [23:32] <SadEagle> roc: I am not sure how much of that is useful. Styling in particular.
  472. # [23:32] <SadEagle> colors, may be.
  473. # [23:32] <Philip`> annevk: Generated elements make styling and scripting harder
  474. # [23:33] <jgraham> gsnedders: Rendering MathML isn't a requirement for being a conforming MathML UA :)
  475. # [23:33] <roc> jgraham: what do you mean? you can use regular DOM APIs in our implementation
  476. # [23:33] <gsnedders> jgraham: I don't claim conformance though :)
  477. # [23:34] <jgraham> roc: What would you test that's MathML specific though?
  478. # [23:34] <roc> having an HTML <math> element that parses to MathML DOM could be very useful, but you'd need a way to put classes and IDs in there
  479. # [23:34] <roc> jgraham: stuff like MathML scriptlevel automatically changing font sizes based on formula structure
  480. # [23:35] <jgraham> roc: IIRC, that's not a normative requirement in the MathML spec
  481. # [23:35] <roc> sure is
  482. # [23:35] <annevk> Philip`, true, though probably not the common case
  483. # [23:36] <SadEagle> one would hope high-quality rendering would be an implementor's goal, though
  484. # [23:36] * Philip` attempts to post bug reports to the IE8 newsgroup, which does not appear to be a place with an especially high signal-to-noise ratio
  485. # [23:37] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  486. # [23:37] <roc> the spec goes into some detail about how scriptlevel must interact with CSS font sizing
  487. # [23:37] <roc> I spent a few weeks implementing it last year
  488. # [23:37] <roc> I don't want to be told now that all that was non-normative :-)
  489. # [23:38] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) (Client Quit)
  490. # [23:41] <jgraham> roc: http://www.w3.org/TR/MathML2/chapter7.html#interf.genproc (7.2.1) suggests that all the rendering rules are non-normative, but maybe I misunderstanding
  491. # [23:42] * jgraham finds the MathML spec hard to understand in general
  492. # [23:44] <roc> I don't think the rules in 3.3.4.2.1 and 3.3.4.2.2 can be construed as non-normative
  493. # [23:44] <roc> http://www.w3.org/TR/MathML2/chapter3.html#id.3.3.4.2
  494. # [23:49] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.180)
  495. # Session Close: Thu Mar 13 00:00:00 2008

The end :)