/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-03-13 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Mar 13 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:04] <jgraham> roc: Practically I agree but pedantically "Since MathML renderers may be unable to make use of arbitrary font sizes with good results, they may wish to modify the mapping from scriptlevel to fontsize to produce better renderings in their judgment." implies that you need not change fontsize when scriptlevel changes. Although I guess there might be other testable assertions there
  4. # [00:05] <jgraham> Er, the next sentence from that quote would be useful "In particular, if fontsizes have to be rounded to available values, or limited to values within a range, the details of how this is done are up to the renderer."
  5. # [00:05] <roc> pedantically, CSS renderers are allowed to have "font-size:10px ! important" in the UA style sheet
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  7. # [00:06] <jgraham> Fair enough :)
  8. # [00:07] <jgraham> Am I mistaken in thinking that MathML doesn't use RFC 2119 keywords?
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  13. # [00:21] <annevk> i don't think so
  14. # [00:21] <annevk> it also doesn't appear to have any normative references?
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  27. # [01:10] <othermaciej> extra sad fact: just the MathML xmnlns declaration is as long as the LaTeX form of the quadratic formula
  28. # [01:11] <gavin_> heh
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  45. # [01:48] <Dashiva> othermaciej: It's XML, expecting it to be anything else is madness ;)
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  47. # [01:58] <Hixie> i really need to move the focus from use cases to problems
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  50. # [01:59] <Hixie> people seem to give much less useful feedback when they think in terms of the term "use case" than the term "problem"
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  78. # [08:10] <hsivonen> http://www.bluishcoder.co.nz/2008/03/refactoring-of-firefox-html-video.html
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  81. # [08:35] <hsivonen> I'm a bit nervous about how the mapping from the codecs MIME parameter to and from GStreamer, QuickTime and DirectShow will work in practice
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  113. # [13:25] <hsivonen> Do we have enough people going to XTech to hold some kind of official/unofficial f2f meeting?
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  116. # [13:42] <Philip`> zcorpan_: compatMode/documentMode work pretty differently in the Live DOM Viewer, so I wouldn't trust what it says
  117. # [13:43] <zcorpan_> Philip`: interesting
  118. # [13:44] <zcorpan_> Philip`: i get the same results in the zombie dom viewer. what's different?
  119. # [13:46] <Philip`> zcorpan_: Er, I can't remember :-(
  120. # [13:46] <Philip`> It might have only affected documentMode and not compatMode
  121. # [13:47] <zcorpan_> i can't find any difference with documentMode either
  122. # [13:47] <Philip`> Hmm
  123. # [13:48] <zcorpan_> i haven't tried the actual http header though
  124. # [13:48] * Philip` didn't either
  125. # [13:48] <Philip`> I'll have to try it out when I'm at home again
  126. # [13:48] <zcorpan_> k
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  129. # [14:23] <hsivonen> why did absent system/public ids in become "" instead of null in the tokenizer tests?
  130. # [14:25] <annevk> that's a bug
  131. # [14:25] <hsivonen> annevk: ok. thanks
  132. # [14:26] <hsivonen> I take it that it's ok to check in fixed test without fixing the python impl
  133. # [14:26] <hsivonen> correct?
  134. # [14:26] <hsivonen> I can't remember what the outcome of the test and html5lib sync discussion was
  135. # [14:27] <annevk> python fails?
  136. # [14:27] <annevk> hmm
  137. # [14:27] <annevk> who did that?
  138. # [14:27] <hsivonen> I don't know if python fails
  139. # [14:27] <hsivonen> I just assume it might if I change the test cases
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  143. # [14:43] <hsivonen> is it intentional that if > terminates the system id, the system id becomes the string so far instead of null?
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  145. # [14:46] * hsivonen finds that http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=1285&to=1286 wasn't annotated as conformance checker and tool-relevant
  146. # [14:47] <annevk> Philip`, did you change the tokenizer tests to use "" instead of null?
  147. # [14:48] <hsivonen> annevk: actually, "" is right in the cases I was looking at
  148. # [14:49] <annevk> oh ok
  149. # [14:49] <annevk> good
  150. # [14:49] <Philip`> annevk: No
  151. # [14:49] <Philip`> http://html5lib.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/testdata/tokenizer/test2.test still seems to use null
  152. # [14:50] <annevk> seems to be a misunderstanding
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  154. # [14:52] <Philip`> http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/source/browse - hmm, why are there no files there?
  155. # [14:53] <Philip`> Oh, it's because Google is stupid and can't write HTML that works in browsers
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  158. # [14:55] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: that case was brought up on the list before the spec changed wrt > in FPI so i guess it was considered, and hence, intentional
  159. # [14:56] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: ok
  160. # [15:02] <zcorpan_> i'm thinking about doctype roundtripping with innerHTML
  161. # [15:02] <zcorpan_> the current level of roundtripping of quirkyness is no doctype and doctypes with a name other than "html"
  162. # [15:03] <zcorpan_> but emitting FPI and SI if present doesn't roundtrip bogus doctypes anyway
  163. # [15:27] <hsivonen> Hixie: is there a strong perf reason to have a separate character encoding sniffing algorithm instead of running the real tokenizer with a simplified token handler and ISO-8859-1 decoding?
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  166. # [15:34] <annevk> is there any browser that supports document.innerHTML to begin with?
  167. # [15:36] <zcorpan_> annevk: not that i know of
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  170. # [15:38] <hsivonen> I hope ipv6.google.com is not an indication of a future naming pattern
  171. # [15:39] <zcorpan_> annevk: but i think the genshi and/or kid templating engines implemented it
  172. # [15:40] <Philip`> Sounds like they aren't very confident at IPv4-only clients' ability to ignore AAAA records
  173. # [15:40] <Philip`> which seems entirely sensible for now
  174. # [15:41] <Philip`> s/IPv4-only clients/clients which support IPv6 themselves but are on IPv4-only networks/
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  176. # [15:51] <annevk> "Any UA that prints pages so incorrectly should be considered non-conformist."
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  226. # [19:55] <sayrer> annevk, what's the best selector-api test suite?
  227. # [19:56] <annevk> I guess WebKit has public tests
  228. # [19:56] <annevk> apart from that I'm afraid nothing has happened yet
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  238. # [20:28] <Lachy> I will be trying to work on the test suite starting next week
  239. # [20:28] <Lachy> for selectors api
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  243. # [20:43] <turtlethere> Some disinformation about HTML 5 and mp3 appeared:
  244. # [20:43] <turtlethere> http://www.ddj.com/web-development/206902334?cid=RSSfeed_DDJ_All
  245. # [20:44] <turtlethere> Kevin Carlson explains:
  246. # [20:44] <turtlethere> everyone involved can agree that the audio element should support MP3
  247. # [20:44] <turtlethere> Is that so?
  248. # [20:45] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.255.99.46)
  249. # [20:46] <hsivonen> turtlethere: not as far as I've noticed
  250. # [20:46] <hsivonen> turtlethere: might be different in two years
  251. # [20:47] <svl> wow, I see _four_ silverlight ads on that page. Sliiight overkill?
  252. # [20:48] <svl> oh, no, five; there's a really small text-only one as well.
  253. # [20:49] <hsivonen> at least the Silverlight ads GIF images and not Flash animations :-)
  254. # [20:49] <turtlethere> Is anybody in position to complain about this to DDJ?
  255. # [20:50] <turtlethere> I have not found any comment feature there
  256. # [20:50] <turtlethere> and I do not think I know enough to contact them by e-mail
  257. # [20:52] <turtlethere> I mean, such false representations can influence public expectations
  258. # [20:52] <annevk> MP3 was never agreed upon fwiw
  259. # [20:52] <turtlethere> and effectively constrain the choice when it is time to make one.
  260. # [20:52] <annevk> At this point it has much the same problems as H264 so...
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  265. # [21:39] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/QA/2008/03/semantic_web-telephone_game.html first I read about it
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  271. # [22:02] <Philip`> The error message on http://www.xiven.com/weblog/search/results?q=%00 seems quite peculiar
  272. # [22:06] <hsivonen> Philip`: are you trying to bust everyone on the XPhiles list?
  273. # [22:10] <Philip`> hsivonen: No, I only happened to look at that one (since it was near the top of that list)
  274. # [22:11] <Philip`> It looks like many of the others are cheating because they're just static pages, and for the others it'd be too trivial to break them :-p
  275. # [22:13] <hsivonen> bertilo wennergren cheats by outsourcing searches to Google
  276. # [22:14] <hsivonen> adactio has gone text/html
  277. # [22:14] * hsivonen gives up
  278. # [22:15] <Philip`> That doesn't stop http://www.bertilow.com/%ef%bf%bf.html
  279. # [22:16] <hsivonen> %ef%bf%bf always triumphs
  280. # [22:16] <Philip`> %01 is just as good
  281. # [22:17] <Philip`> (%00 only works in query strings because Apache always returns 404 if it's in the path name)
  282. # [22:17] <Philip`> Actually, %3C works perfectly well in this case too
  283. # [22:17] <Philip`> http://www.bertilow.com/<script>alert(document.cookie)</script>.html
  284. # [22:18] <Philip`> and that's not XML's fault
  285. # [22:18] <annevk> nice
  286. # [22:19] <Philip`> I think Validator.nu should have a feature that tries putting %00 and %01 and %ef%bf%bf and %3C into every form it can find on a site, and into every part of the address
  287. # [22:24] * eseidel_ is now known as eseidel
  288. # [22:27] <Philip`> Hmm, could you use unescaped input bugs to insert <meta name="verify-v1" ...> into a page and take control of Google's settings for the site?
  289. # [22:28] <Philip`> (I'm not sure what pages Google accepts that on, or whether they require it to be in the <head> or something)
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  294. # [23:40] <gsnedders> http://realtech.burningbird.net/?s=%ef%bf%bf — yeah U+FFFF always works
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  298. # Session Close: Fri Mar 14 00:00:00 2008

The end :)