/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-03-19 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Mar 19 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:11] <Philip`> Yay for search engine crawlers that DoS my server
  4. # [00:14] <Philip`> (I suppose I shouldn't provide an infinite number of URLs in a system that takes a large fraction of a second to generate each page with no caching or anything clever, but still they should be more considerate of bad server design...)
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  6. # [00:33] * Philip` wonders when Searchme will realise it's just getting Forbidden responses and stop requesting two pages a second
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  9. # [00:45] <hsivonen> Philip`: thank you for chardet lengths. I think I'll probably run chardet on the first 512 bytes and running it on more than 1024 bytes doesn't appear to make much sense
  10. # [00:48] <Philip`> (Hmm, looks like Searchme uses pretty much the whole of 208.111.154.0/24, so I'll have to block all that...)
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  15. # [01:11] <jgraham__> Philip`: At some point it would be nice to have the data behind the phase transition diagram for the tree construction (the .dot file or whatever)
  16. # [01:11] <jgraham__> But right now I'm going to sleep
  17. # [01:12] <Philip`> jgraham__: http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/svn/tokeniser/ has a possibly out of date version of the code for generating the graph (and more)
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  20. # [01:24] <Philip`> (graph_gen.ml in particular produces the .dot file, based on treeconstructot_spec.ml which is generated by treeconstructor.pl from section-tree-construction.html which is an XMLified version of the section from the HTML5 spec)
  21. # [01:24] <Philip`> s/t/r/
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  110. # [11:24] * Hixie will use this channel to note URLs to tables
  111. # [11:24] <Hixie> i hope no-one minds
  112. # [11:24] <Hixie> http://broads-authority.gov.uk/boating/navigating/tide-tables.html
  113. # [11:25] <Hixie> http://www.usability.com.au/resources/tables.cfm
  114. # [11:31] * Joins: jgraham (n=james@xport5.ast.cam.ac.uk)
  115. # [11:33] <Hixie> http://www.gutenberg.org/files/17128/17128-h/17128-h.htm
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  124. # [12:15] <Hixie> http://www.gutenberg.org/files/21341/21341-h/21341-h.htm#metrical_feet
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  127. # [12:19] <Hixie> http://www.gutenberg.org/files/19598/19598-h/19598-h.htm
  128. # [12:19] <Hixie> http://broads-authority.gov.uk/boating/navigating/tide-tables.html
  129. # [12:19] <Hixie> http://www.socialsecurity.gov/policy/docs/statcomps/eedata_sc/2004/table01.html
  130. # [12:20] <Hixie> http://joeclark.org/dossiers/PDFUA/PDFUA-tables-1.html
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  136. # [12:51] <Lachy> I'm trying to find a way to reprhase this requirement in selectors api: "If the user agent also supports some level of CSS, the implementation should support the same set of selectors in both these APIs and CSS."
  137. # [12:52] <Lachy> I want it to say that UAs should support the same selectors, but allow for exceptions in case some selectors are introduced that don't work for CSS, but do for selectors api, or vice versa
  138. # [12:53] <Lachy> any suggestions?
  139. # [13:07] <zcorpan> to me it sounds like something that should be non-normative...
  140. # [13:12] <Lachy> yeah, that's what I was thinking
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  142. # [13:37] <Lachy> I think this is better "For user agents that support of CSS, it is recommended that they support the same set of selectors for use in both these APIs and CSS."
  143. # [13:40] <hsivonen> so IE8 uses a bugus mime type application/x-hatom in WebSlices discovery...
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  145. # [13:56] <zcorpan> Lachy: isn't "RECOMMENDED" an rfc2119 keyword?
  146. # [13:57] <Lachy> yes, it is
  147. # [13:58] <Lachy> but it allows for the requirement to be ignored
  148. # [13:58] <Lachy> if there are valid reasons to do so
  149. # [13:58] <zcorpan> same as "SHOULD"
  150. # [13:58] <Lachy> yes
  151. # [13:58] <zcorpan> so your change is merely editorial :)
  152. # [13:59] <Lachy> well, I couldn't think of a non-normative way to phrase it that didn't use either "should" or "recommended"
  153. # [13:59] <Lachy> but the existing draft in SVN was actually a MUST level requriement
  154. # [13:59] <Lachy> so it's more than editorial
  155. # [13:59] <zcorpan> ah
  156. # [14:00] <zcorpan> "User agents are strongly encouraged to..."
  157. # [14:00] <zcorpan> if you want it non-normativ
  158. # [14:00] <zcorpan> e
  159. # [14:00] <zcorpan> (or s/strongly //)
  160. # [14:00] <Lachy> that might work, though what are the advantages or disadvantages of making it non-normative?
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  162. # [14:01] <zcorpan> is it something you'd put in a testsuite?
  163. # [14:01] <zcorpan> (though "should"s are often not in testsuites anyway...)
  164. # [14:01] <Lachy> it would be difficult to test with a test suite
  165. # [14:02] <Lachy> though, not impossible
  166. # [14:02] <zcorpan> indeed
  167. # [14:02] <zcorpan> might be a useful thing to test
  168. # [14:02] <zcorpan> dunno
  169. # [14:02] <zcorpan> don't really have an opinion on the matter
  170. # [14:02] <zcorpan> just trying to help with wording :)
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  186. # [16:21] <hsivonen> hmm. Pingback interop doesn't look so great
  187. # [16:21] <hsivonen> pingback to WordPress requires <a href to appear in lower case in the blog post at my end
  188. # [16:39] <Philip`> It looks like it probably requires lowercase a, but it doesn't care about the href
  189. # [16:40] <Philip`> i.e. <a title="http://.../"> and <a http://.../> would work just as well
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  193. # [16:47] <zcorpan> perhaps we should make <a http://...> parse into <a href='http://..'>
  194. # [16:48] <Philip`> Why?
  195. # [16:48] <zcorpan> convenient?
  196. # [16:49] <Philip`> Doesn't seem that hard to write href="" :-p
  197. # [16:49] <Philip`> particularly compared to the cost of updating tutorials and tools
  198. # [16:50] <Philip`> I see one person writing <a http://www.addthis.com/bookmark.php?pub="thatgrrl&amp;url=" expr:href="" &amp;title=" + data:post.title" target="_blank" title="Bookmark using any bookmark manager!"> but that's about it
  199. # [16:51] <Philip`> Also <a mailto:foo=bar@gmail.com> would be kind of ambiguous
  200. # [16:51] <hsivonen> this charset alias stuff is crazy but fascinating in a way
  201. # [16:52] <Philip`> Sounds like the web
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  203. # [16:53] <hsivonen> here's an idea for a testing project: extracting all the charset aliases supported by Gecko, generating test pages for each and checking which aliases are actually supported by IE, Safari and Opera
  204. # [16:54] <hsivonen> the aliases for the old Apple encodings seem to be particularly inconsistent in different implementations
  205. # [16:55] <hsivonen> according to http://philip.html5.org/data/charsets.html almost no one uses them anyway...
  206. # [16:56] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@109.80-202-65.nextgentel.com)
  207. # [16:56] <Philip`> There's a million times more pages on the web than what I looked at, so "almost no one" multiplies into quite a lot of people
  208. # [16:56] <hsivonen> another research item: figuring out the requirements for the visual and logical iso-8859 Hebrew and Arabic variants
  209. # [16:57] <hsivonen> Philip`: well, according to your numbers, <$mtpublishcharset$> is more popular than x-mac-thai :-)
  210. # [16:58] <Philip`> According to my numbers, the difference is not significant given the sample size, so you can't tell which is more popular :-)
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  212. # [17:02] <hsivonen> implementations don't agree whether the chaset name for MacUkranian should contain the word ukraine or ukranian, whether there should be the x- prefix and whether there should be a hyphen after mac
  213. # [17:03] <Philip`> (Also my sample is quite strongly biased towards certain languages that are not Thai)
  214. # [17:03] <Philip`> (Er, my sample isn't, but my population is)
  215. # [17:04] <Philip`> (compared to the entire web)
  216. # [17:04] <Philip`> (I'm probably messing up the statistical terms anyway)
  217. # [17:05] <hsivonen> my local build of Validator.nu parser now knows about 1194 charset names (when certain ones have been banned)
  218. # [17:05] <hsivonen> that's just crazy when utf-8 should be the one name to rule them all
  219. # [17:07] <Philip`> Until n years in the future when a new character encoding that solves all the problems with UTF-8 will become popular and should rule over all others?
  220. # [17:08] <hsivonen> problems, what problems? :-)
  221. # [17:08] <hsivonen> (utf-8-nfc :-)
  222. # [17:09] <Philip`> There needs to be a URI-based namespacing system for private extensions, otherwise people will end up conflicting and it'll all go horribly wrong
  223. # [17:10] <Philip`> It's no good just allocating a flat block of numbers and telling people to do what they want in that range
  224. # [17:36] <hsivonen> fixing all these charset details is a mess
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  233. # [18:29] <Philip`> hsivonen: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/rdf/ - s/Martial/Martian/
  234. # [18:30] <hsivonen> Philip`: thanks fixed
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  237. # [18:37] <krijnh> hsivonen: also, s/on error<A/on error <A
  238. # [18:37] <krijnh> (last paragraph)
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  242. # [18:53] <hsivonen> krijnh: thanks fixed.
  243. # [18:54] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-138-199-53.range86-138.btcentralplus.com)
  244. # [19:01] <Philip`> Looks like half the SVG files on Wikipedia come from Inkscape
  245. # [19:02] <Philip`> and 25% from Adobe Illustrator
  246. # [19:03] <Philip`> Also one of them says <!-- lol jews did wtc -->
  247. # [19:03] <Philip`> I guess vandalism isn't restricted to content pages :-(
  248. # [19:04] <Philip`> (Mostel_HUAC.svg, in case anyone cares)
  249. # [19:05] * Joins: qwert666 (n=qwert666@acbe243.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)
  250. # [19:05] <takkaria> heh
  251. # [19:09] <KevinMarks> someone described MS as having 'red state' developers
  252. # [19:11] <KevinMarks> ie lots of in-house intranet devs, who are their primary customers, and who have built sites predicated on everyone having the same MS browser, as that's what IT installs
  253. # [19:18] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no)
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  256. # [19:19] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/data/svg-xmlns.txt
  257. # [19:19] <Philip`> There's a lot of xmlns:svg (from Inkscape, I think) but no <svg:...> at all
  258. # [19:22] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-09defe0e99b9ea44)
  259. # [19:26] <Philip`> Hmm, Opera renders http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/23/Yonkers_seal.svg
  260. # [19:26] <Philip`> and Firefox doesn't
  261. # [19:26] <gsnedders> Saf doesn't
  262. # [19:27] <Philip`> Opera 9.5 doesn't
  263. # [19:27] <Philip`> (9.2 does)
  264. # [19:27] <Philip`> I guess that's just a bug
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  266. # [19:28] <hsivonen> namespaces are tough
  267. # [19:29] <Philip`> and it affects about 2-3% of the SVG images on Wikipedia
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  278. # [20:30] <andersca> Hixie: ping!
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  284. # [21:16] <eseidel> Philip`: the SVG is wrong :)
  285. # [21:16] <eseidel> Philip`: it needs a namespace
  286. # [21:16] <eseidel> glad to see 9.5 has become more strict
  287. # [21:16] <Hixie> andersca: here
  288. # [21:17] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-9219d46eb024fbb8) (Client Quit)
  289. # [21:18] <andersca> Hixie: hi! is this a typo?
  290. # [21:18] <andersca> A browsing context can be associated with an application cache. A child browsing context is always associated with the same browsing context as its parent browsing context, if any.
  291. # [21:18] <andersca> should it be "A child browsing context is always associated with the same application cache..." ?
  292. # [21:19] <Hixie> er yes
  293. # [21:19] <andersca> that makes things more clear :)
  294. # [21:19] <Hixie> please do e-mail the list about that one :-)
  295. # [21:19] <andersca> will do
  296. # [21:20] <Hixie> thanks
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  298. # [21:21] <andersca> sent
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  301. # [21:58] <hsivonen> w3.org is now ahead of whatwg.org for html 5 on google
  302. # [21:58] <Hixie> indeed
  303. # [21:58] <Hixie> unsurprising
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  307. # [22:07] <hsivonen> Hixie: if confidence is Certain and a meta is seen for a different encoding (after alias resolution), shouldn't that be a parse error?
  308. # [22:07] * Quits: andersca (n=andersca@nat/apple/x-86c7d08cb99f095d) ("a")
  309. # [22:07] <hsivonen> I though it already was but now I don't see it in the tree builder spec
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  313. # [22:17] <Hixie> hsivonen: it's an error anyway, since you can't have more than one encoding declaration
  314. # [22:19] <hsivonen> Hixie: that doesn't cover the case where it became confident due to HTTP or BOM and meta disagrees
  315. # [22:19] <Hixie> i thought i'd made that non-conforming too
  316. # [22:19] <Hixie> yes, it is
  317. # [22:19] <Hixie> 3.7.5.4. Specifying the document's character encoding
  318. # [22:19] <Hixie> first bullet point
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  320. # [22:21] <zcorpan_> Hixie: in the live dom viewer you can get ie8 working by using try-catch with the ie8 approach in the catch block
  321. # [22:22] <Hixie> there's a separate ie8.html file in that directory at the moment
  322. # [22:22] <hsivonen> Hixie: ok. the natural way to implement that is as parse error
  323. # [22:23] <Hixie> hsivonen: that makes sense
  324. # [22:23] <zcorpan_> yes, but it would be more useful if it worked in the normal version
  325. # [22:23] <zcorpan_> giving 2 duplicate links every time doesn't scale
  326. # [22:23] <zcorpan_> s/2//
  327. # [22:23] <Hixie> well, get them to fix ie8 :-)
  328. # [22:23] <Hixie> i don't want to fix the main one to work around bugs in unrelased products
  329. # [22:24] <zcorpan_> ok
  330. # [22:25] <hsivonen> I'm starting to suspect that we are going to need a charset registry 5 so that so that each implementor doesn't need to figure out the magic alias mess
  331. # [22:25] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@guest-228.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  332. # [22:26] <hsivonen> can someone suggest a good behavior-based heuristic for testing if a character decoder is ebcdic-based?
  333. # [22:26] <Hixie> what mess?
  334. # [22:28] <hsivonen> Hixie: mapping TIS-620 to Windows-874. mapping GB_2312-80 to GBK. KS_C_5601-1987 to windows-949-2000. x-x-big5 to big5, etc.
  335. # [22:28] <Hixie> some of those will presumably end up in the spec, but i'm hoping that most are not widespread enough to require support
  336. # [22:28] <hsivonen> also, if the Gecko alias file and the ICU aliases are any indication of reality, the IANA registry of aliases is not the whole story
  337. # [22:32] * Joins: csarven (i=csarven@on-irc.csarven.ca)
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  339. # [22:49] <Hixie> http://www.flickr.com/photos/joeclark/192878174/
  340. # [22:49] <Hixie> ...and other such tables
  341. # [22:49] <Hixie> seem to use indenting as a way of having "subrows"
  342. # [22:50] <Hixie> i wonder if we should support that explicitly somehow
  343. # [22:52] <Hixie> http://www.flickr.com/photos/joeclark/185786265/ is an insane table
  344. # [22:54] <hsivonen> how is x-user-defined supposed to work?
  345. # [22:56] <hsivonen> WebKit seems to implement x-user-defined as mapping to the first 256 code points of the PUA
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  351. # [23:16] <Hixie> this indenting thing is really common
  352. # [23:17] <andersca> Hixie: URLs specified in the manifest attribute are relative to the document, right?
  353. # [23:18] <hsivonen> I sucks considerably that Java doesn't have a rewindable InputStream in the standard library
  354. # [23:18] <Hixie> andersca: yes, in html
  355. # [23:19] <hsivonen> one that doesn't require telling it how much to buffer ahead of time, that is
  356. # [23:19] <hsivonen> fortunately, I'm not the first person to need it, so I don't have to write it
  357. # [23:19] <Hixie> andersca: in xhtml, if there's an xml:base on the root <html> element, that is honoured
  358. # [23:19] <andersca> oh, interesting
  359. # [23:19] <Hixie> (assuming you support xml:base)
  360. # [23:19] <Hixie> ok my macbook pro is CLEARLY having overheating issues
  361. # [23:20] <Hixie> it keeps locking up when it gets even remotely warm
  362. # [23:20] <hsivonen> must be fun with manifest and <base>
  363. # [23:20] <Hixie> i wonder if the fans are busted or something
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  365. # [23:21] <andersca> Hixie: how do you empty an application cache? is that something that the user agent decides when/how to do?
  366. # [23:23] <othermaciej> andersca: I think "Empty Cache" in the UI should do it
  367. # [23:23] <andersca> yeah
  368. # [23:24] <Hixie> empty cache does it
  369. # [23:24] <Hixie> there's also a way to trigger it
  370. # [23:24] <Hixie> but i forget what it is
  371. # [23:26] <andersca> swapCache doesn't clear it, or does it?
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  374. # [23:30] <Hixie> ok so the way to clear a cache is to simply empty the manifest, but leave it on the server
  375. # [23:31] <Hixie> (and to remove the manifest attributes)
  376. # [23:32] <Hixie> bbiab
  377. # [23:32] <andersca> right
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  381. # Session Close: Thu Mar 20 00:00:00 2008

The end :)