/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-03-23 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Sun Mar 23 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:17] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.180)
  4. # [00:19] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  5. # [00:21] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-138-199-53.range86-138.btcentralplus.com) ("Partying in teh intarwebs")
  6. # [00:43] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  7. # [00:46] * Quits: qwert666_ (n=qwert666@acak241.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) ("Leaving")
  8. # [00:48] <dglazkov> paging Dr. Hixie
  9. # [00:49] <heycam> hsivonen, SVG Tiny 1.2 does say, in the Reference Restrictions section: http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/linking.html#ReferenceRestrictions
  10. # [00:50] <heycam> 1.1 doesn't though
  11. # [00:52] <heycam> correction, 1.1 does: http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/struct.html#uriReferenceDefinition
  12. # [01:23] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@ti132110a341-2214.bb.online.no) ("Ex-Chat")
  13. # [01:55] * Quits: webben_ (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  14. # [01:56] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  15. # [02:07] * Parts: a-ja (n=chatzill@adsl-70-237-201-197.dsl.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net)
  16. # [02:15] <dglazkov> no Hixie?
  17. # [02:36] * Joins: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober)
  18. # [02:36] <Hixie> dglazkov: here now
  19. # [02:36] <dglazkov> cool!
  20. # [03:07] * Joins: MacDome (n=eric@c-69-181-78-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  21. # [03:12] * Quits: tndH (i=Rob@adsl-87-102-36-28.karoo.KCOM.COM) ("ChatZilla 0.9.81-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508]")
  22. # [03:32] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  23. # [03:33] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  24. # [03:58] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  25. # [03:58] * Joins: csarven (n=csarven@bas16-montreal02-1279588957.dsl.bell.ca)
  26. # [03:59] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  27. # [04:09] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  28. # [04:10] * Quits: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) ("ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)")
  29. # [04:20] * Quits: MacDome (n=eric@c-69-181-78-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  30. # [04:49] * Joins: MacDome (n=eric@68-240-103-176.area5.spcsdns.net)
  31. # [05:08] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@adsl-75-36-151-106.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  32. # [05:08] * Quits: MacDome (n=eric@68-240-103-176.area5.spcsdns.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  33. # [05:23] * Joins: MacDome (n=eric@c-69-181-78-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  34. # [05:25] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@124-168-8-145.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("bye")
  35. # [06:00] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  36. # [06:01] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  37. # [06:02] * Quits: csarven (n=csarven@bas16-montreal02-1279588957.dsl.bell.ca) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  38. # [06:11] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au)
  39. # [06:28] * Joins: jruderman_ (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  40. # [06:32] * Quits: MacDome (n=eric@c-69-181-78-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  41. # [06:45] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  42. # [06:58] * Joins: MacDome (n=eric@c-69-181-78-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  43. # [07:14] * Quits: MacDome (n=eric@c-69-181-78-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  44. # [07:29] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-138-199-53.range86-138.btcentralplus.com)
  45. # [07:46] * Joins: MacDome (n=eric@c-69-181-78-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  46. # [08:20] * Quits: wakaba_ (n=w@180.165.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp) ("CHOCOA")
  47. # [08:21] * Quits: MacDome (n=eric@c-69-181-78-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  48. # [08:23] * Joins: wakaba (n=w@180.165.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  49. # [08:43] <Hixie> anyone have IE?
  50. # [08:43] <Hixie> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Ctable%20border%3E%0D%0A%3Ctr%3E%3Ctd%20rowspan%3D1%3EX%3Ctd%20rowspan%3D2%3EY%3Cbr%3EY%3Ctd%20rowspan%3D3%3EZ%3Cbr%3EZ%3Cbr%3EZ%3Cbr%3EZ%0D%0A%3Ctbody%3E%0D%0A%3Ctr%3E%3Ctd%3Ezzz
  51. # [08:43] <Hixie> i need to know if the cells in the first row group are the same height
  52. # [08:44] <Hixie> or whether they do what safari does
  53. # [08:47] <Pavlov_> sec
  54. # [08:47] <Pavlov_> X YY and ZZZ?
  55. # [08:48] <Pavlov_> er, ZZZZ?
  56. # [08:48] <Pavlov_> if so, they are all the same height for me in IE6
  57. # [08:49] <Hixie> oh i was hoping for IE8
  58. # [08:49] <Hixie> sorry
  59. # [08:49] <Pavlov_> ah
  60. # [08:49] <Pavlov_> sorry
  61. # [08:49] <Hixie> np
  62. # [08:49] <Hixie> i doubt it changed anyway
  63. # [08:50] <Hixie> thanks
  64. # [09:15] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au) ("bye")
  65. # [09:17] <Hixie> maybe we should just drop xml:base altoegether
  66. # [09:28] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@124-168-8-145.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  67. # [09:49] * Joins: qwert666 (n=qwert666@acav241.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)
  68. # [09:56] <hsivonen> heycam: thanks.
  69. # [10:00] <heycam> np
  70. # [10:02] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@ti132110a341-2214.bb.online.no)
  71. # [10:03] <virtuelv> Is the error handling well enough specified these days for there to be a reference resulting parse tree for http://virtuelvis.com/download/162/evilml.html ?
  72. # [10:03] <Hixie> yes
  73. # [10:07] <virtuelv> Ok. Results aren't too encouraging, then
  74. # [10:08] <virtuelv> I can't test the DOM Viewer outpout in Midori (Webkit-based GTK app), since it crashes the browser
  75. # [10:08] <hsivonen> heycam: would you consider it appropriate if I made Validator.nu complain about if pattern had a full URI instead of just a hashed ID ref?
  76. # [10:08] <othermaciej> DOM Viewer handles it ok in Safari 3.1
  77. # [10:09] <Hixie> http://james.html5.org/cgi-bin/parsetree/parsetree.py?source=%3C%21DOCTYPE+HTML+PUBLIC+%22-%2F%2FW3C%2F%2FDTD+HTML+4.01%2F%2FEN%22+%0D%0A%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2Fhtml4%2Fstrict.dtd%22%3E%3Chtml%3Chead%3Ctitle%3EWhat+does+your+HTML+%0D%0Aparser+make+of+this%3F%3C%2F%3E%3C%2F%3E%3Cbody%3Ch1%3Cem%3EEmphasized%3C%2F%3E+in+%26lt%3Bh1%26gt%3B%3C%2F%3E%3Cp%3Ca+%0D%0Ahref%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.example.com%22%3Cem%3EEmphasis%3C%2F%3E+in+links+as+well%3C%2F%3E.+%0D
  78. # [10:09] <Hixie> er
  79. # [10:09] <Hixie> http://james.html5.org/cgi-bin/parsetree/parsetree.py
  80. # [10:09] <virtuelv> othermaciej: Midori isn't exactly stable, but it's the only reasonable way I can run it under Gnome
  81. # [10:09] <hsivonen> is there a bug here: http://parsetree.validator.nu/?doc=http://virtuelvis.com/download/162/evilml.html
  82. # [10:10] <hsivonen> apparently not
  83. # [10:11] <hsivonen> it's just confusing that "<" can become part of an element name
  84. # [10:11] <othermaciej> fwiw in WebKit we have made no attempt yet to better match HTML5 standard parsing
  85. # [10:13] <hsivonen> Hixie: what's the deal with allowing "<" in an element name? is it an IEism? none of Gecko, WebKit and Opera do it
  86. # [10:16] <heycam> hsivonen, that sounds fine for svg 1.1. but for tiny 1.2, i'd only do it if you also complain about other unsupported values, e.g. fill="blah"
  87. # [10:16] <heycam> since it's the same class of error as that
  88. # [10:16] * heycam goes for dinner for sure this time
  89. # [10:16] <hsivonen> heycam: thanks
  90. # [10:21] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  91. # [10:22] <Hixie> hsivonen: someone asked for < not to end tags, so, it doesn't
  92. # [10:23] <Hixie> send mail if you want to have it changed (but do let me know what it should be changed to)
  93. # [10:30] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p1215-ipbf3008marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  94. # [10:33] <hsivonen> Hixie: email sent
  95. # [10:34] <Hixie> thanks
  96. # [10:36] * hsivonen is unhappy that SVG uses URIs instead of honest IDREFs for references that must be intra-document
  97. # [10:50] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@ti132110a341-2214.bb.online.no) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  98. # [10:51] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p1215-ipbf3008marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  99. # [10:51] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I believe it is on a theory of future extensibility
  100. # [10:54] <hsivonen> othermaciej: in that case, the Safari impl. isn't forward-compatible
  101. # [10:55] <othermaciej> you mean that we just treat is as an idref, not resolve as a URI and then check if it is the same document?
  102. # [10:55] <hsivonen> othermaciej: yes
  103. # [10:56] <othermaciej> probably a bug that we treat it that way, but SVG is not yet that huge an area of concern
  104. # [10:57] <othermaciej> so besides requiring the parser to create elements with "<" in the name, does current html5 consider that an error?
  105. # [11:03] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  106. # [11:07] <hsivonen> othermaciej: no, the error will be caught on the next layer.
  107. # [11:52] * hsivonen doesn't like ARIA's XSD datatype dependency
  108. # [11:52] * hsivonen would prefer Web Forms 2.0 datatypes
  109. # [12:13] <hsivonen> the conformance requirements for ARIA need some work
  110. # [12:36] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  111. # [12:37] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  112. # [12:46] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  113. # [12:51] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  114. # [12:56] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  115. # [12:58] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  116. # [13:04] * Joins: tndH (i=Rob@83.100.254.190)
  117. # [13:06] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  118. # [13:11] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no)
  119. # [13:30] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p1215-ipbf3008marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  120. # [13:52] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  121. # [14:24] * Joins: Lachy_ (n=Lachlan@ti200710a340-3451.bb.online.no)
  122. # [14:35] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  123. # [15:10] * Joins: webben (n=benh@91.84.250.9)
  124. # [15:15] * Joins: met_ (n=Hassman@r5bx220.net.upc.cz)
  125. # [16:25] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-138-199-53.range86-138.btcentralplus.com) ("Partying in teh intarwebs")
  126. # [16:29] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-138-199-53.range86-138.btcentralplus.com)
  127. # [16:56] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  128. # [17:19] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@109.80-202-65.nextgentel.com)
  129. # [17:23] * Quits: met_ (n=Hassman@r5bx220.net.upc.cz) ("Chemists never die, they just stop reacting.")
  130. # [17:31] <hsivonen> 3.4.3.1 Header Levels versus Nesting Levels in http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/ is just sad
  131. # [17:33] * Joins: webben_ (n=benh@91.84.250.9)
  132. # [17:36] <Lachy_> hsivonen, is there anything in that document that isn't sad?
  133. # [17:37] <hsivonen> Lachy_: given that Ajax libraries are building widgets out of divs, annotating those with ARIA is better than putting one's head in sand and insisting that the div widgets aren't happening
  134. # [17:37] <hsivonen> Lachy_: but yeah, even the div widgets are kinda sad
  135. # [17:40] * Quits: webben (n=benh@91.84.250.9) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  136. # [17:40] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p1215-ipbf3008marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  137. # [17:41] * Joins: csarven (n=csarven@bas16-montreal02-1279374690.dsl.bell.ca)
  138. # [17:51] <gsnedders> http://gsnedders.html5.org/tests/content-type.php
  139. # [18:16] * Joins: Lachy__ (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no)
  140. # [18:31] * Quits: Lachy_ (n=Lachlan@ti200710a340-3451.bb.online.no) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  141. # [18:47] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  142. # [18:51] * Quits: csarven (n=csarven@bas16-montreal02-1279374690.dsl.bell.ca) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  143. # [19:12] * Joins: webben (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com)
  144. # [19:12] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-67-160-251-228.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  145. # [19:14] * Quits: Lachy__ (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no) ("Leaving")
  146. # [19:14] * Joins: Lachy_ (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no)
  147. # [19:20] * Joins: MacDome (n=eric@c-69-181-78-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  148. # [19:27] * Quits: webben_ (n=benh@91.84.250.9) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  149. # [19:36] <Hixie> hsivonen: now's a good time to raise aria issues
  150. # [19:36] <Hixie> hsivonen: i agree with most of what you said
  151. # [19:36] <Hixie> hsivonen: i'd go even further, and say that you shouldn't make one element take the semantics of another when those semantics affect the wider page, e.g. making a paragraph into a header
  152. # [19:45] * Joins: webben_ (n=benh@91.84.250.9)
  153. # [19:49] * weinig is now known as weinig|away
  154. # [19:51] * Quits: webben (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  155. # [20:02] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  156. # [20:08] <hsivonen> Hixie: ok. I've been thinking I should draft an ARIA-in-HTML5 integration proposal from the document conformance point of view
  157. # [20:09] <Hixie> that'd be very interesting
  158. # [20:09] <hsivonen> once we converge on what's conforming, we can consider what behavior to prescribe for the non-conforming cases
  159. # [20:09] <Hixie> also from the point of view of a non-CSS UA
  160. # [20:09] <Hixie> well
  161. # [20:09] <Hixie> my perspective on things is that we should avoid giving authors rope to hang themselves with, generally
  162. # [20:10] <Hixie> hence how many of the things i design from scratch just don't have error conditions
  163. # [20:10] <Hixie> they just have well-defined semantics for everything possible
  164. # [20:10] <jgraham> Hixie: Unfortunately aria has lots of error conditions :)
  165. # [20:10] <hsivonen> I'm particularly concerned that the "best practices" doc has examples that fail to use semantics that have been in HTML for over a decade and that wouldn't be disruptive for Ajax libraries
  166. # [20:11] <hsivonen> also, from a selfish point of view, I'm not at all a fan of aria-datatype and aria-owns
  167. # [20:12] <Hixie> jgraham: do you recall what format i have to use for "ISSUE-20"-type markers in e-mails to make my e-mails get associated with tracker issues?
  168. # [20:12] <Hixie> "aria-owns"?! hah
  169. # [20:12] * Hixie introduces "html5-is-da-hot-stuff"
  170. # [20:13] <jgraham> Hixie: No. I think you just put the ISSUE-20 in the subj. line
  171. # [20:13] <hsivonen> seriously, though, ARIA containment conformance checking would be super-simple without aria-owns
  172. # [20:13] <hsivonen> or with aria-owned-by
  173. # [20:13] <hsivonen> but having the relation go from parent to child sucks big time for me :-(
  174. # [20:13] <Hixie> jgraham: oh i have to put it in the subject? that's unfortunate
  175. # [20:14] <jgraham> I don't know what happens if you put ISSUE-20 ISSUE-30 etc. all in the same subject. Possibly tracker explodes ;)
  176. # [20:15] <jgraham> (I assume that is the problem)
  177. # [20:15] * hsivonen thought they could be in the message body as well
  178. # [20:15] <Hixie> i'm just gonna mention them in the body and link them up later if required
  179. # [20:16] * Joins: ianloic (i=yakk@glub.dreamhostps.com)
  180. # [20:16] <hsivonen> "The keywords can be anywhere in the subject or text of the message. However, the tool only reads the text portions of an email, not HTML or PDF, so make sure you send emails either in plain-text or with an equivalent plain-txt attachment."
  181. # [20:16] <Hixie> i hope it reads all of the e-mail
  182. # [20:16] <jgraham> hsivonen: Where is that?
  183. # [20:16] <Hixie> this is one big mail
  184. # [20:16] <hsivonen> http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/email
  185. # [20:17] * jgraham didn't spot that link
  186. # [20:18] * Quits: jruderman_ (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  187. # [20:20] <hsivonen> also, I think aria-templateid may have bad effects on innovation and compatition
  188. # [20:21] <hsivonen> bad for innovation, because it makes changing sites break accessibility
  189. # [20:21] <hsivonen> and bad for competition, because some participants get a special boost
  190. # [20:21] <hsivonen> and as a competitor, you cannot get the same advantage by writing to an open spec
  191. # [20:22] <hsivonen> instead, you have to use a magic string and reverse engineer its effect
  192. # [20:25] <Hixie> you don't have to
  193. # [20:25] <Hixie> you can just hardcode uris
  194. # [20:25] <Hixie> and that way you're not dependent on the author to provide a hook
  195. # [20:27] <hsivonen> Hixie: I meant you are a competitor of a site whose templateid is getting preferential treatment
  196. # [20:28] <Hixie> [24~aah
  197. # [20:28] <hsivonen> Hixie: how do you gain the same advantage?
  198. # [20:28] <Hixie> ure
  199. # [20:28] <Hixie> sure even
  200. # [20:28] <Hixie> it's anti-competitive!
  201. # [20:28] <Hixie> must be dropped
  202. # [20:28] <Hixie> :-)
  203. # [20:29] <hsivonen> the innovation point is that you are yourself getting preferential treatment for you old version. can you change your app innovatively?
  204. # [20:30] <Hixie> yeah
  205. # [20:36] <Hixie> well i just closed a tracker issue with a rejection for the first time
  206. # [20:36] * Hixie dons his asbestos suit
  207. # [20:36] * Hixie just replied to 102 e-mails
  208. # [20:36] <Hixie> that should help the graph
  209. # [20:40] <Hixie> so i don't suppose anyone did go through my input-for-whatwg-html-parsing-rules-namespaces-discussion folder and summarise the problem descriptions, huh
  210. # [20:44] * weinig|away is now known as weinig
  211. # [20:44] <jgraham> Hixie: Only 67kb. I'm disappointed ;)
  212. # [20:53] <hsivonen> Hixie: btw, aria-owns is supposed to address the case where a table has sub-rows but the table markup only allows consecutive rows
  213. # [20:56] <hsivonen> Hixie: did you talk markp into removing his summary attributes?
  214. # [20:56] * Quits: MacDome (n=eric@c-69-181-78-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  215. # [20:57] * Joins: csarven (n=csarven@on-irc.csarven.ca)
  216. # [20:57] * hsivonen is almost sure there were summary='' instances on diveintomark a while ago
  217. # [21:21] * Joins: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  218. # [21:26] * Quits: csarven (n=csarven@on-irc.csarven.ca) (Remote closed the connection)
  219. # [21:26] * Joins: csarven (n=csarven@on-irc.csarven.ca)
  220. # [21:27] * Joins: MacDome (n=eric@c-69-181-78-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  221. # [21:48] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  222. # [21:48] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  223. # [22:08] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  224. # [22:09] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  225. # [22:13] <Hixie> hsivonen: no, but i doubt he'd be hard to convince :-)
  226. # [22:23] * weinig_ is now known as weinig
  227. # [22:25] <Hixie> well that didn't take long...
  228. # [22:25] <Hixie> (re: www-archive/html4all)
  229. # [22:36] <Lachy_> wow, I'm surprised I ever said abbr="" should be retained. It's interesting how my opinion changed in the last 2 years
  230. # [22:40] <gsnedders> abbr=""? what's that?
  231. # [22:41] <gsnedders> when the top hit on google is actually the spec and not some tutorial, you know you're off to a bad start
  232. # [22:41] <gsnedders> what a pointless attribute.
  233. # [22:42] <webben_> Hixie: Does HTML5 have a way to a "provide a brief overview of how a data table is organized or a brief explanation of how to navigate the table", making "the information available to people who use screen readers" without displaying the information visually ( quotes from http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H73.html )?
  234. # [22:42] <webben_> gsnedders: If you're trying to reduce table verbosity abbr can be useful.
  235. # [22:43] <Hixie> webben_: I don't understand why you would want to discriminate against people who can see. <p> fulfills the rest of the use case.
  236. # [22:44] <Hixie> any whatwgers got ssb brawl?
  237. # [22:44] <webben_> Hixie: That assumes that the information is useful to people who can see.
  238. # [22:44] <webben_> If it's useful to people who can see, it shouldn't be in summary.
  239. # [22:44] <Hixie> webben_: why would it not be?
  240. # [22:44] <webben_> Why would it be?
  241. # [22:46] <webben_> Hixie: e.g. in the WCAG example, is that information useful to people who can see?
  242. # [22:46] <webben_> at least assuming "Schedule for Route 7 going downtown" is obvious looking elsewhere on the page
  243. # [22:47] <Lachy_> Hixie, what's "ssb brawl"?
  244. # [22:47] <Hixie> sorry, playing brawl right now, can't look at the web :-)
  245. # [22:47] <Hixie> Lachy_: wii game
  246. # [22:47] <Hixie> Lachy_: i'm playing with allan
  247. # [22:48] <takkaria> webben_: I would say that information is useful for sighted users as well
  248. # [22:48] <BenMillard> the abbr attribute provides a short form of the headers in a data table
  249. # [22:49] <BenMillard> it would be useful in flexible layouts, as the short form could be disabled if the columns got too narrow for the long form
  250. # [22:49] <webben_> takkaria: So you reckon sighted people would need that explanation above the table (say) in order to understand it?
  251. # [22:50] <BenMillard> it's also intended to reduce the pain of long headers being repeated in the aural rendering of data tables
  252. # [22:51] <BenMillard> only 1 table in my survey used it
  253. # [22:52] <BenMillard> people who don't care enough about users to write short table header text probably don't care enough to write short table header text in a special attribute as well as their long table header text
  254. # [22:52] <webben_> I used abbr to try and cut down the verbosity of some of the tables in the Yahoo! UK Funds Centre: http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/16/sector.html
  255. # [22:52] <webben_> e.g. "Quartile Rank over 1 Year" => "Rank over 1 Year"
  256. # [22:53] <webben_> it's not much, but if it helps a little it's worthwhile
  257. # [22:55] <takkaria> webben_: I don't they need it, no, but it's a useful summary
  258. # [22:55] <takkaria> I don't see it doing any harm to sighted people
  259. # [22:56] * Lachy_ is now known as Lachy
  260. # [22:56] <takkaria> the quick summary of the service times would be useful, for example
  261. # [22:56] <hsivonen> It turns out that trying to figure what makes sense when integratating HTML5 and ARIA is non-obvious
  262. # [22:57] <hsivonen> it would be much easier to leave it unspecified and make it Someone Else's Problem
  263. # [22:57] <othermaciej> hsivonen: if you take a baseline assumption of "ARIA always wins over native markup role, on a property-by-property basis", what else needs to be specified?
  264. # [22:57] <othermaciej> (honest question - I am not sure)
  265. # [22:58] <Hixie> that's a terrible design
  266. # [22:59] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I am assuming that it is a bad idea to let document conformance allow override of strong native semantics
  267. # [22:59] <othermaciej> Hixie: that is how the ARIA guys say it should work - it certainly has the advantage of being easy to implement
  268. # [22:59] <hsivonen> othermaciej: more importantly, there are some native semantics that could be augmented with states and properties
  269. # [23:00] <othermaciej> hsivonen: it does seem to me like a more careful integration design would not let use use anything but an <h?> element for a header, or let you make a checkbox appear to AT to be a radio button
  270. # [23:00] <Hixie> othermaciej: it's also a horrific abuse of semantics
  271. # [23:00] <hsivonen> othermaciej: and requiring a role in that case would just be silly
  272. # [23:00] <hsivonen> othermaciej: for example, I think <th> should allow aria-sort without having a role
  273. # [23:01] <othermaciej> hsivonen: aaron's statement on this (not sure it should be taken as official, since it was just an offhand remark on a list) is that it should work property by property, even if no explicit role is set
  274. # [23:01] <othermaciej> and that in fact, on elements that would have "native" state like a checkbox, it should show through even if you set the role to something else
  275. # [23:01] <BenMillard> hsivonen, you have an informal list of ARIA stuff which can be inferred for HTML5 elements? maybe create a document listing all the ARIA stuff which can be inferred by default
  276. # [23:01] <othermaciej> as an implementor I am pleased, as an architect I find this design distasteful
  277. # [23:01] <othermaciej> BenMillard: a list like that would be great
  278. # [23:02] <hsivonen> BenMillard: I'm writing the list right now
  279. # [23:02] <othermaciej> BenMillard: ARIA guys did not seem to think having one was very important
  280. # [23:02] <webben_> takkaria: Yes. That's a reasonable argument for removing some of that text from SUMMARY (although there's a risk of swamping the page in explanatory text). Whether designers would be persuaded that enough sighted users would be helped if it were included is a different matter; persuading designers to include some text that doesn't mess with their design is likely to be easier. (Of course, if sighted users are /equally/ helped then there's no argument that it sh
  281. # [23:02] <othermaciej> FWIW we are seriously considering implementing ARIA in WebKit soon, the only thing that makes me hesitate is HTML integration issues (not just HTML5 but even just HTML4 stuff)
  282. # [23:03] <BenMillard> yay, a useful contribution. with that I'll depart for dinner...cya!
  283. # [23:03] * Parts: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  284. # [23:04] <hsivonen> othermaciej: the ARIA spec is written to allow certain states and properties with certain roles
  285. # [23:04] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-138-199-53.range86-138.btcentralplus.com) ("Partying in teh intarwebs")
  286. # [23:04] <hsivonen> othermaciej: so if Validator.nu only allowed those, it would proclaim <th aria-sort=ascending> as non-conforming
  287. # [23:04] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I see
  288. # [23:05] <hsivonen> and since I don't want to allow just any random stuff, this requires thinking
  289. # [23:05] <othermaciej> hsivonen: so even if the implementation is as I said, perhaps it would make sense to change conformance to take into account implied roles, and to perhaps in some cases make override of native role non-conforming
  290. # [23:05] <hsivonen> and the questions that thinking about this turns up are don't all have obvious answers
  291. # [23:06] <othermaciej> At least some of the WAI folks were very sympathetic to the argument that ARIA should not supersede or discourage proper semantic markup where that would work for the intended use
  292. # [23:06] <hsivonen> othermaciej: right. and someone has to figure that out
  293. # [23:06] <hsivonen> othermaciej: their best practice doc doesn't follow that policy
  294. # [23:08] * weinig is now known as weinig|away
  295. # [23:08] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I wouldn't say all agree with it, and I don't think any of them has tried to fully think through the implications of such a policy
  296. # [23:15] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  297. # [23:17] * Joins: starjive (i=beos@81-233-18-73-no30.tbcn.telia.com)
  298. # [23:28] * hsivonen is puzzled with the assertion that people think 0 is positive
  299. # [23:29] <Hixie> wtf is aria-sort=ascending and why doesn't it just apply generally?
  300. # [23:30] <Hixie> as in, why is it an "aria" thing
  301. # [23:30] <hsivonen> Hixie: it makes a claim to the AT that a table column is sorted in an ascending order
  302. # [23:30] <hsivonen> it doesn't actually sort it
  303. # [23:30] <webben_> I'd assume because it's easy to tell at a glance whether something is sorted alphabetically if you can see it.
  304. # [23:30] <Hixie> hsivonen: ok so why don't we just have a "sort-order" attribute?
  305. # [23:31] <webben_> why don't you?
  306. # [23:31] <hsivonen> Hixie: because the whole ARIA thing assumes that whoever defines HTML is unresponsive and they have to do their thing in their own syntactic partition
  307. # [23:31] <Hixie> that's not going to fly well if they want it integrated with html5
  308. # [23:31] <hsivonen> Hixie: also, ARIA assumes that the host language space is wider than HTML+SVG
  309. # [23:32] <Hixie> ah, overgeneralisation syndrome
  310. # [23:32] <Hixie> typical of w3c
  311. # [23:32] <hsivonen> yeah
  312. # [23:32] <hsivonen> in an ideal world, the language space would be clamped to HTML and SVG and the HTML WG and the SVG WG would be responsive
  313. # [23:33] <Hixie> i'm still baffled by this concept of wanting to annotate parts of svg with aria roles
  314. # [23:33] <webben_> well, people want to build controls out of SVG
  315. # [23:33] <webben_> so it's much the same as building controls out of divs and annotating those, I should think
  316. # [23:33] <Hixie> controls is one thing
  317. # [23:34] <Hixie> marking things as tables with a sort order is something else
  318. # [23:34] <webben_> If you're going to build controls out of SVG, why not tables too?
  319. # [23:34] <Hixie> because that's what <html:table> is for?
  320. # [23:35] <hsivonen> Hixie: also, one of the tacit assumptions of ARIA is that the a significant proportion of browsers is uncooperative
  321. # [23:35] <Hixie> seems to me that the underlying assumptions of the aria work are out of date
  322. # [23:35] <hsivonen> which doesn't hold for ARIA anymore but still holds for XBL2
  323. # [23:36] <Hixie> how so?
  324. # [23:36] <webben_> Hixie: Dunno. It's like people building text in Flash I'd suppose.
  325. # [23:37] <hsivonen> Hixie: there's no indication of Microsoft wanting to implement XBL2, as far as I can tell
  326. # [23:37] <webben_> Hixie: or Canvas
  327. # [23:37] <Hixie> webben_: yes, it's exactly like that. and people building text out of flash (or tables out of svg) have already given up on accessibility, so why is providing aria attributes going to help?
  328. # [23:37] <Hixie> it's like people who want new features in spec to work around bugs in browsers
  329. # [23:38] <Hixie> hsivonen: microsoft never indicate anything.
  330. # [23:38] <Hixie> hsivonen: (of this kind of stuff)
  331. # [23:38] <webben_> Hixie: I'm not sure they have given up on accessibility. I think they're more likely to be privileging something else over accessibility.
  332. # [23:38] <othermaciej> building tables out of SVG seems like a weird concept
  333. # [23:38] <hsivonen> Hixie: right, so ARIA takes a strategy that works regardless of what MS does
  334. # [23:38] <hsivonen> Hixie: but then in this case it turns out that they implement it as well
  335. # [23:38] <othermaciej> on the other hand, at least some SVG-related thinking is based on the premise that your whole UI is SVG
  336. # [23:38] <hsivonen> Hixie: but that wasn't necessary for ARIA to be useful elsewhere
  337. # [23:39] <Hixie> hsivonen: i don't see how any of the dumb things in aria have anything to do with whether ms implements aria or not
  338. # [23:39] <webben_> othermaciej: exactly
  339. # [23:39] <othermaciej> I would rather stab myself in the eye with a fork than implement table layout using SVG
  340. # [23:40] <hsivonen> Hixie: the general idea of putting AT integration away in attributes instead of requiring new elements like <progress> and <datagrid> works without Microsoft's participation
  341. # [23:40] <webben_> othermaciej: already done I think: http://thomas.tanreisoftware.com/?p=42
  342. # [23:40] <hsivonen> Hixie: the specifics of ARIA are specifics
  343. # [23:40] <webben_> (the implementing, not the eye-fork-stabbing ;) )
  344. # [23:40] <hsivonen> Hixie: there are a number of specifics I quite dislike
  345. # [23:40] <Hixie> hsivonen: dude. <table> isn't new.
  346. # [23:40] <othermaciej> webben_: I read the phrase "SVG flow layout engine" and closed the window
  347. # [23:40] <webben_> hehe
  348. # [23:40] <hsivonen> Hixie: that's one part I seriously dislike
  349. # [23:41] <hsivonen> Hixie: to me, it makes no sense to have that there
  350. # [23:41] <Hixie> same with the header stuff
  351. # [23:42] <othermaciej> certainly some roles seem redundant in HTML
  352. # [23:42] <othermaciej> HTML4, not just 5
  353. # [23:42] <othermaciej> I can see why, if you are a crazy AJAX guy, you might want to pretend a <div> is a checkbox
  354. # [23:42] <othermaciej> but not why you would want to pretend it is a table or header
  355. # [23:42] <hsivonen> Hixie: I already complained about the header "best practice" stuff
  356. # [23:42] <othermaciej> you can already customize the presentation of the real elements for those as much as you want
  357. # [23:42] <hsivonen> Hixie: tomorrow, I'm going to complain about the table stuff
  358. # [23:43] <webben_> othermaciej: not really
  359. # [23:43] <hsivonen> Hixie: and about templateid
  360. # [23:43] <webben_> not in current browsers anyway
  361. # [23:43] <webben_> there are more bugs with styling table elements than divs
  362. # [23:43] <othermaciej> webben_: h1 can be customized just as much as div
  363. # [23:43] <webben_> othermaciej: h1 probably can yes
  364. # [23:43] <othermaciej> table does imply row/cell structure
  365. # [23:43] <hsivonen> Hixie: I also want to complain about aria-owns, but I predict it is too late to fix that one in this browser release cycle
  366. # [23:44] <hsivonen> aria-owns scares me
  367. # [23:44] <othermaciej> but if you have something that does not follow that row/cell structure, how is it a table?
  368. # [23:44] <othermaciej> what is aria-owns?
  369. # [23:44] <hsivonen> othermaciej: aria-owns overrides the parent-child relationship induced by tree containment
  370. # [23:44] <othermaciej> does it replace it or add to it?
  371. # [23:44] <hsivonen> othermaciej: the scary part is that since it overrides what children a parent has, it can make cycles
  372. # [23:45] <hsivonen> letting the child point to a single new parent would be safer
  373. # [23:45] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I think it is supposed to replace the normal containment when computing what to tell AT
  374. # [23:45] <othermaciej> that's kind of a pain
  375. # [23:46] <hsivonen> my work would be much simpler without aria-owns
  376. # [23:46] <othermaciej> since to report children to AT, you have to know about all aria-owns attributes everywhere in the document
  377. # [23:47] <hsivonen> besides, I think the problem aria-owns is supposed to solve could be solved in a less disruptive way
  378. # [23:47] <hsivonen> the stated problem is that table has a flat list of rows
  379. # [23:47] <hsivonen> and aria-owns makes it possible to make some rows children of other rows
  380. # [23:48] <hsivonen> I think aria-level could be tweaked to solve that
  381. # [23:48] <othermaciej> so you can fake an outline view with a table?
  382. # [23:48] <hsivonen> right
  383. # [23:48] <hsivonen> like <datagrid>
  384. # [23:50] * Quits: MacDome (n=eric@c-69-181-78-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  385. # Session Close: Mon Mar 24 00:00:00 2008

The end :)