/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-03-25 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Mar 25 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:11] <BenMillard> oh, about author mathematics
  4. # [00:11] <BenMillard> *authoring
  5. # [00:11] <BenMillard> at the HTMLWG meeting in Boston I just remembered talking to a couple of MathML guys
  6. # [00:12] <BenMillard> when I asked them what people used before MathML, they immediately said "LaTex"
  7. # [00:12] <BenMillard> one of them was working on version 3 of it, IIRC
  8. # [00:13] <jgraham> BenMillard: LaTeX3 or Mathml 3?
  9. # [00:14] <BenMillard> LaTeX 3
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  11. # [00:14] <BenMillard> http://www.latex-project.org/latex3.html - I think one of them was David Carlisle, the other names don't ring a bell
  12. # [00:15] <jgraham> Yeah, David Carlisle is in the MathML-WG
  13. # [00:15] <Hixie> i wish the person who posted http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2006-June/006518.html would have finished their sentence in para5... what does it mean it is important for us to do???
  14. # [00:19] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  15. # [00:21] * Hixie giggles at http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2006-June/006711.html
  16. # [00:22] <Hixie> according to my calculations there, a tag name costs $31,790
  17. # [00:24] * Quits: billmason (n=billmaso@ip235.unival.com) (".")
  18. # [00:24] <BenMillard> $10 per hour is about £5 per hour which I think is below minum wage in the UK
  19. # [00:26] <Hixie> yeah the numbers are a bit dubious
  20. # [00:26] <Philip`> It's right to an order of magnitude, though
  21. # [00:26] <Philip`> which is more accurate than many of the other numbers
  22. # [00:28] <othermaciej> that's the cost of a tag name to who?
  23. # [00:28] <BenMillard> the industry in general, afaict
  24. # [00:28] <Hixie> othermaciej: humanity
  25. # [00:28] <othermaciej> hahahahahaha
  26. # [00:29] <BenMillard> oh, there's also the time delay of the extra bytes being transferred over the wire :)
  27. # [00:29] <BenMillard> if you're on company time that would count
  28. # [00:31] <Philip`> If the feature adds maybe a kilobyte to the size of the browser download, and there's a billion web users, then that's about an extra hundred dollars of bandwidth charges
  29. # [00:31] * jgraham recalls this entire thread on mathematics becoming less than pleasant
  30. # [00:32] <BenMillard> I meant the bytes for the tags in the document, but that's interesting as well
  31. # [00:33] <Hixie> the cost can only be in terms of time and non-renewable resources
  32. # [00:33] <Hixie> money that goes around the circle doesn't affect the total cost
  33. # [00:34] * Quits: psa (n=yomode@71.93.19.66) (Remote closed the connection)
  34. # [00:35] <Philip`> Time doesn't seem like a non-renewable resource - you can always just employ an extra person, and it will not make the world poorer
  35. # [00:36] <Hixie> it's time that that person would not spend doing what they want to do, one presumes
  36. # [00:39] <BenMillard> anyway, it's just a bit of fun :)
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  38. # [00:50] <Hixie> so far, out of 133 e-mails of mathematics discussion, a grand total of 2 lines, in just 2 separate e-mails, actually discussed what problem was being solved.
  39. # [00:50] <Hixie> that's an even worse ratio than the tables discussions
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  45. # [01:30] <Hixie> 2 lines out of 160 e-mails so far
  46. # [01:30] <Hixie> sigh
  47. # [01:31] <Philip`> Does "I want latex2html to give less ugly output" count as a problem?
  48. # [01:31] <Hixie> it's closer than most of these e-mails
  49. # [01:32] <Hixie> "I have content in LaTeX and want to convert it to HTML and have it retain a high degree of typographical quality" is a problem
  50. # [01:32] <Hixie> though you should probably include an explanation of _why_ you want to convert it to HTML
  51. # [01:32] <Philip`> Because Adobe Reader is horribly slow, so I don't want to use PDF, and there's no other option
  52. # [01:33] <Hixie> well HTML isn't an option either now
  53. # [01:33] <Philip`> (Actually I'd just use PDF anyway, because it's people's own faults if they don't have a nicer PDF reader)
  54. # [01:33] <Hixie> so really your problem is "I have content in LaTeX and want to view it in a good viewer while retaining a high degree of typographical quality"
  55. # [01:34] <Hixie> at which point, HTML really doesn't seem like it has a good place in any solution for that problem
  56. # [01:34] <Philip`> It needs to be a widely-distributed reader too, so that most people are able to access my content
  57. # [01:34] <Philip`> and it needs to be indexed by search engines, so that people can find my stuff
  58. # [01:35] <BenMillard> PDFs do get indexed by search engines?
  59. # [01:35] <Hixie> these all seem like LaTeX problems, not HTML problems :-)
  60. # [01:36] <Philip`> BenMillard: They do by at least Google, which is all that counts
  61. # [01:36] <Philip`> Hixie: They're still problems, and problems that could be solved by HTML
  62. # [01:36] <BenMillard> how about "I have content in LaTeX and want to include it on my web page."
  63. # [01:36] <Hixie> to be honest i don't really see the problem here
  64. # [01:36] <Hixie> BenMillard: yes, that's a different problem entirely
  65. # [01:37] <Hixie> Philip`: if you have content in LaTeX, and you publish it to PDF, you already have a widely available viewer, good typopraphy, and searchability
  66. # [01:37] <Hixie> Philip`: seems like a solved problem
  67. # [01:37] <Hixie> BenMillard: and a valid problem
  68. # [01:37] <othermaciej> PDF is its own world
  69. # [01:38] <Hixie> BenMillard: though not one that anyone on the mailing list seems to have mentioned so far :-) (in the 163 mails i've read)
  70. # [01:38] <othermaciej> it seems nice in principle to be able to do math decently without escaping to a different basic technology for your whole document
  71. # [01:38] <othermaciej> I have to agree that MathML syntax seems vile, now that I have looked more closely
  72. # [01:39] <Philip`> Hixie: Many people use latex2html now, despite it being slightly ugly, so there must be reasons why they do that, and I'm just not entirely sure what those reasons are :-)
  73. # [01:39] <BenMillard> hixie, perhaps you are being to picky about their wording?
  74. # [01:39] <Hixie> Philip`: yeah, me either
  75. # [01:39] <Philip`> but that doesn't make the reasons not exist
  76. # [01:40] <Hixie> BenMillard: no, i'm trying to pull problems out of these e-mails, even if they haven't mentioned them intentionally. Sadly most of these e-mails are arguing about which syntax to use, on the basis of the syntax's own characteristics.
  77. # [01:40] <Hixie> not suitability to solving any particular problem
  78. # [01:40] <BenMillard> hixie, ah
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  80. # [01:40] <Hixie> Philip`: oh i agree. but if i don't know what the problems are, i can't solve them, or evaluate proposed solutions for them.
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  83. # [01:49] <Hixie> man, i'm going to be skipping a lot of these e-mails in my eventual reply
  84. # [01:49] <Hixie> so much arguing back and forth about nothing
  85. # [01:50] <BenMillard> the inexpressiveness of plain text can bring out the worst in people (including me)
  86. # [01:50] <Hixie> oh i've seen these discussions happen in person too
  87. # [01:51] <Hixie> the only difference is that those discussions don't end up in my inbox two years later :-P
  88. # [01:51] <BenMillard> win!
  89. # [01:52] <Hixie> Elliotte Harold wrote:
  90. # [01:52] <Hixie> > The specific syntax is important because there's a huge, useful toolchain for processing XML and there's essentially zilch for
  91. # [01:52] <Hixie> > processing this strange HTML 5 thing.
  92. # [01:52] <Hixie> yay for all of you guys implementing the html5 tools over the past 2 years
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  99. # [02:04] <Hixie> wohay, e-mail 250/368 is henri's e-mail earlier this month
  100. # [02:04] <Hixie> 118 e-mails in a few weeks
  101. # [02:04] <Hixie> hopefully _some_ will have problem descriptions
  102. # [02:04] <Hixie> because the first 249 e-mails had nothing beyond what's on the wiki now
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  104. # [02:12] <Hixie> ok henri's e-mail more than doubled the size of that wiki page
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  107. # [02:23] <BenMillard> would the top level of list items be more useful as headings on that page?
  108. # [02:24] * Hixie tries
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  110. # [02:24] <Hixie> nah, that looks more ugly i think
  111. # [02:25] <Hixie> http://wiki.whatwg.org/index.php?title=New_Vocabularies&oldid=2894 is what it looked like
  112. # [02:25] <Hixie> i've reverted it
  113. # [02:27] <Hixie> i wonder if mathml would take off more if it were available in text/html, but IE continued to not support it
  114. # [02:29] <vlad_> are there any useful tools for producing mathml?
  115. # [02:29] <Hixie> hm, http://www.w3.org/mid/ABFEED64-8A5F-43C9-981B-416C6F65EA50@iki.fi is a very good point
  116. # [02:30] <Hixie> vlad_: dunno
  117. # [02:30] <vlad_> and potentially some way to easily put in normal-looking ascii math (perhaps with some script)?
  118. # [02:30] <Hixie> yeah, i really don't want to require that people write out raw mathml
  119. # [02:30] <Hixie> that's just insane stuff
  120. # [02:30] <vlad_> like, being able to type x^2/y^2 and have it do the right thing would be nice
  121. # [02:30] <vlad_> even if it's something like <span class="math">x^2/y^2</span> and then there's some JS that translates
  122. # [02:31] <othermaciej> JS translating latex math expressions to mathml would probably be doable
  123. # [02:31] <Hixie> i'd rather not rely on JS here
  124. # [02:31] <Pavlov_> vlad_: thats a font feature
  125. # [02:31] <Hixie> but that's another issue
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  127. # [02:34] <Philip`> vlad_: The OO.o equation editor produces MathML and could be considered useful
  128. # [02:35] <BenMillard> hixie, the headings version seems a more conventional wiki page, to me.
  129. # [02:35] <Hixie> BenMillard: i'm not a conventional kind of guy :-)
  130. # [02:36] <vlad_> Pavlov_: e.g. http://www.zvon.org/HowTo/Output/MathMLtestsuite_abs1.php
  131. # [02:37] <vlad_> is a pretty crappy way to write |H/K| (granted, you also want italic H and K, but still)
  132. # [02:37] <Pavlov_> well
  133. # [02:37] <Pavlov_> its not great
  134. # [02:38] <Pavlov_> maybe some simple stuff would be OK
  135. # [02:39] <BenMillard> feedback on HTML5 from a friend I knew when I did GTA modding some years ago: "Damn you guys are fuckin smart"
  136. # [02:40] <BenMillard> I guess a poor first impression of the HTML5 effort is not a universal experience
  137. # [02:40] <Hixie> heh
  138. # [02:41] * Philip` also happened to do GTA modding some years ago, where 'some' = 9
  139. # [02:41] <BenMillard> ooh, I modded the early ones too :)
  140. # [02:42] <Hixie> speaking of GTA, is GTA4 out yet?
  141. # [02:42] * Hixie has some cash earmarked for a PS3 and GTA4 and is just waiting
  142. # [02:45] <BenMillard> http://www.rockstargames.com/IV/events/ - 29th April 2008
  143. # [02:45] * Hixie calendars it
  144. # [02:46] <Philip`> http://web.archive.org/web/20020121215533/http://gta2.games.ultrastore.com/ - yay, my site sort of still exists
  145. # [02:47] <BenMillard> OMG I REMEMBER THAT WEBSITE
  146. # [02:49] <BenMillard> Philip`, this is a muliplayer level I made for GTA2: http://projectcerbera.com/gta2/multislayer/
  147. # [02:49] <Philip`> Unfortunately I barely knew what I was doing, and didn't know how to write GUI programs in anything other than Visual Basic
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  149. # [02:50] <BenMillard> I still don't know how to write GUI programs in anything other than VB :$
  150. # [02:50] <Philip`> Later I learnt how to write GUI programs in Perl, which wasn't really any better
  151. # [02:51] <Hixie> heh
  152. # [02:52] <Philip`> (The only ones I've liked were in C++ / wxWidgets)
  153. # [02:52] <Hixie> delphi baby
  154. # [02:53] <othermaciej> I like to write GUI programs in HTML+CSS+JS
  155. # [02:54] <othermaciej> everything else seems annoying
  156. # [02:54] <othermaciej> (though ObjC+Cocoa is not so bad as such things go either)
  157. # [02:54] <vlad_> othermaciej: seriously.. though HTML could use some love
  158. # [02:54] <Philip`> BenMillard: The world looks oddly familiar there - the textures and shapes are all familiar, but I got bored and moved away before the map editor was released so the perspective is odd
  159. # [02:54] <vlad_> (cough xul box model cough)
  160. # [02:54] <othermaciej> vlad_: we got your xul box model
  161. # [02:55] <othermaciej> I wish the CSS WG would show it some love
  162. # [02:55] <vlad_> yeah
  163. # [02:55] <othermaciej> instead of figuring how to full-justify arabic text in the presence of chinese vertical writing that uses double-width characters
  164. # [02:55] <Hixie> all it would take is an editor
  165. # [02:56] <vlad_> othermaciej: we should really fedex those people a nice pen and some parchment
  166. # [02:56] <Philip`> othermaciej: HTML+CSS+JS doesn't work so well when you're trying to decode and render graphics from complex binary files on the user's computer, and trying to do it fast
  167. # [02:56] <vlad_> and they can have at it
  168. # [02:56] <othermaciej> Philip`: oh, well, I wouldn't use it for the non-GUI part
  169. # [02:58] <Philip`> othermaciej: Do you mean you'd have a non-GUI part in a proper language (C++ or Python or whatever) and expose a web interface to it for all interaction?
  170. # [02:59] <othermaciej> if I were called on to write a GUI app I would probably do a desktop/web hybrid with most of the UI in HTML and compute-intensive or system-integrating code in a lower level language
  171. # [03:00] <BenMillard> Philip`, yeah seeing proper perspective in a 2.5D sprite-based game is pretty odd :)
  172. # [03:01] <BenMillard> Philip`, I remeber using M1win for GTA1, which had no draw distance limit. that was cool
  173. # [03:02] <BenMillard> Philip`, the textures for MultiSlayer are actually from the Vice City level in GTA1
  174. # [03:10] <dglazkov> hey enough reminiscing :) I have a question about the state of the HTML5 spec
  175. # [03:11] <dglazkov> would you say that HTML5 is an "upcoming spec"?
  176. # [03:11] * dglazkov is looking for shiny words
  177. # [03:12] <Hixie> upcoming?
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  179. # [03:13] <dglazkov> yes, as in "of the upcoming HTML5 specification"
  180. # [03:14] <dglazkov> would "HTML5 specification draft" be better?
  181. # [03:14] <Hixie> if it's not already "upcome", for lack of a better term, i wonder what it will take for it to do so :-)
  182. # [03:14] <Hixie> what's the whole sentence?
  183. # [03:14] <Hixie> i would just say "HTML5"
  184. # [03:14] <Hixie> but that's just me
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  191. # [03:35] <BenMillard> oh crikey it's 2:30am
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  196. # [03:53] <BenMillard> Marco Zehe blogged about labelledby and describedby. I chatted to him in Mozilla's #accessibility channel and blogged an HTML4 alternative: http://projectcerbera.com/blog/2008/03#day24
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  206. # [05:32] <Hixie> hsivonen: yt?
  207. # [05:32] <Hixie> i don't understand your use case in http://www.w3.org/mid/3733150B-0B02-496D-8517-A9A6D040B3E8@iki.fi
  208. # [05:32] <Hixie> can you give an example of a page doing something like that?
  209. # [05:34] <Hixie> in particular, i don't understand why <img src="icon.svg" alt=""> isn't the best solution for that (even in xhtml today)
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  211. # [05:42] <Hixie> hm, people want to be able to extract svg snippets from html documents and edit them in svg editors
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  218. # [06:31] <Hixie> i am seriously considering not individually replying to all these e-mails
  219. # [06:31] <Hixie> even the ones sent to whatwg
  220. # [06:31] <Hixie> there is so much bikeshedding in these threads it's insane
  221. # [06:31] <Hixie> especially since what we're actually talking about here is the nuclear plant
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  223. # [07:01] <Hixie> holy crap
  224. # [07:01] <Hixie> Philip` provides the first really detailed problem description: http://www.w3.org/mid/47DC70FB.1060205@cam.ac.uk
  225. # [07:04] <Hixie> ok i've read every e-mail
  226. # [07:04] <Hixie> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/New_Vocabularies summarises what i found
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  246. # [09:50] <hsivonen> Hixie: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2008JanMar/0507.html
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  262. # [11:56] <jgraham__> re: typing <div class="math">latex</div> http://www.math.union.edu/~dpvc/jsmath/
  263. # [11:58] <hsivonen> someone who knows HTML5 drag&drop might want to look into the ARIA drag&drop stuff
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  295. # [15:18] <hsivonen> Hixie: the icon case is basically Sam's blog
  296. # [15:19] <hsivonen> Hixie: reasons for not using <img>: 1) Fallback behavior. 2) manageability as part of the markup text in a CMS.
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  317. # [17:58] <andersca> Hixie?
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  324. # [18:40] <Hixie> hsivonen: i honestly think that sam's blog would be better off using <img>
  325. # [18:40] <Hixie> andersca?
  326. # [18:41] <andersca> Hixie: hey
  327. # [18:41] <andersca> Hixie: about the cache update process
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  329. # [18:41] <andersca> Hixie: is the order of the files in the file list important
  330. # [18:41] <andersca> Hixie: (the file list described in step 13)
  331. # [18:46] <Hixie> um
  332. # [18:47] <Hixie> it just says "For each URI in file list" on step 20, without specifying order, so i guess it doesn't matter
  333. # [18:49] <Hixie> the only time order matters is during parsing
  334. # [18:49] <Hixie> because it affects duplicate elimination in the fallback mode
  335. # [18:49] <andersca> yeah
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  340. # [19:04] * Hixie tries to decode "Content-reinforcing contextual progressive-enhancement eye-candy"
  341. # [19:05] <Hixie> i really have no idea what that means
  342. # [19:05] <andersca> good luck with that ;)
  343. # [19:05] <Hixie> maybe hsivonen is just again referring to sam's icons
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  347. # [19:12] <Lachy> Hixie, yeah, Sam's icons would be a good example of that. I think it means content that is related to the surrounding content, but doesn't provide any additional information, and is done using progressive enhancement techniques
  348. # [19:12] <Hixie> yeah so i really don't see why you wouldn't want to use <img> for that
  349. # [19:13] <Hixie> duplicating the icon every time it is used seems like an anti-pattern
  350. # [19:13] <Hixie> bad for caching, bad for maintainability, etc
  351. # [19:16] <Lachy> yeah, I don't know why <img> wouldn't be better either, but I don't know why Sam does it the way he does
  352. # [19:16] <Lachy> maybe SVG in <img> isn't as widely supported yet
  353. # [19:17] <Hixie> that's obviously not a relevant argument when discussing new features in a spec with an ETA of more than 10 years from now :-)
  354. # [19:17] <Philip`> SVG in <img> only works in Opera 9.5, so it's useless in practice
  355. # [19:18] <Hixie> i thought i heard it worked in webkit now too
  356. # [19:18] <Philip`> Oh, okay, that could be true
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  358. # [19:18] <Philip`> but if it doesn't work in Firefox, it's still useless in practice
  359. # [19:19] <Hixie> well sure
  360. # [19:19] <Hixie> but like i said
  361. # [19:19] <Hixie> not a problem when we're discussing future technologies
  362. # [19:20] <Lachy> yeah, I know. It's not an argument, merely a possible explanation
  363. # [19:26] <Hixie> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/New_Vocabularies updated
  364. # [19:26] <Hixie> lots more on there now
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  369. # [19:31] <Hixie> how the hell do we solve the custom-data-in-html issue
  370. # [19:34] <Philip`> Namespaces!
  371. # [19:35] <Philip`> Or make any element name and attribute name conformant
  372. # [19:39] <Hixie> "namespaces" would just lead to people taking divitis to the next level
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  379. # [20:21] <Lachy> hmm. even http://www.dreamhoststatus.com/ is down, that probably means dreamhost is having serious problems right now
  380. # [20:21] <Lachy> that sucks, cause I even log into my email right now
  381. # [20:23] <Lachy> allowing any element or attribute name to be conforming would make the language less useful and prevent future standardised extensions
  382. # [20:23] <virtuelv> Lachy: dreamhoststatus is offsite
  383. # [20:25] <virtuelv> should be noted that there is a conflict between Cogent and TeliaSonera that may affect connectivity for you
  384. # [20:27] <Lachy> who are Cogent and TeliaSonera?
  385. # [20:27] <Lachy> but the problem is apparently with dreamhost, they wrote:
  386. # [20:27] <Lachy> "Sorry about the downtime. A lot of you have already been receiving blingy status messages. Blingy is your cluster of machines for web, mysql, and email. The main file server for this cluster is having serious problems."
  387. # [20:32] <Hixie> dreamhost is fine for me
  388. # [20:32] <Hixie> i'm editing through it right now
  389. # [20:32] <Hixie> the status page does seem down though
  390. # [20:34] <virtuelv> Lachy: backbone providers in the US and scandinavia, respectively
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  392. # [20:38] <Lachy> my site is still up, it's just my email having problems
  393. # [20:39] <Lachy> I'm probably also on a different server from you
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  421. # [22:35] <Hixie> othermaciej: that use case is the first one people have presented that actually would require just "raw xml"-equivalent support in text/html
  422. # [22:37] <othermaciej> Hixie: is that because XBL2 inherently requires raw XML?
  423. # [22:37] <Hixie> not so much raw XML, but it allows you to do things like have <option> elements outside of <select>s and stuff like that
  424. # [22:37] <Hixie> since the DOM is built up in parts
  425. # [22:38] <Hixie> so the parsing rules for html content end up being different than in normal html
  426. # [22:39] <Hixie> wtf, my opera build always starts up in a "wedged" state where it won't access the web for 5 minutes
  427. # [22:40] <virtuelv> Hixie: huh?
  428. # [22:40] <Hixie> when i launch opera, and tell it to go to a web site, it just sits there spinning
  429. # [22:40] <virtuelv> using feeds?
  430. # [22:40] <virtuelv> mail?
  431. # [22:40] <Hixie> only after several minutes (and closing and reopening the window) does it go there
  432. # [22:40] <Hixie> web
  433. # [22:40] <virtuelv> 9.5 or a prior version?
  434. # [22:40] <Hixie> just normal web
  435. # [22:41] <Hixie> 9.50 Beta 4681
  436. # [22:41] <virtuelv> there is a vps folder in your profile directory
  437. # [22:41] <virtuelv> try nuking it
  438. # [22:42] <virtuelv> but hang on, I'll hear with some of the mac users
  439. # [22:43] <Hixie> i nuked Library/Application Data/Opera* and it didn't solve the problem
  440. # [22:44] <virtuelv> sounds omnious
  441. # [22:45] <virtuelv> I don't use mac, and have never seen similar behavior on other platforms
  442. # [22:45] <virtuelv> and short of actually upgrading to a later weekly, I'm afraid I can't offer more advice than "file a bug"
  443. # [22:49] <Hixie> is there a later weekly yet?
  444. # [22:49] <Hixie> i can never find them
  445. # [22:50] <Hixie> i wish opera had something like nightshift, or even better, like firefox's autoupdate
  446. # [22:51] <virtuelv> http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/
  447. # [22:51] <virtuelv> latest post has newer builds
  448. # [22:52] <virtuelv> build 4716
  449. # [22:52] <Hixie> k i'll see if i can remember to update next time i try to test opera
  450. # [22:52] <Hixie> thanks
  451. # [22:52] <virtuelv> latest builds have a bunch of acid3 fixes
  452. # [22:53] <Hixie> cool
  453. # [22:54] * aroben_ is now known as aroben
  454. # [22:56] <Hixie> same problem
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  457. # [23:03] <virtuelv> heh, that's ... odd
  458. # [23:04] <virtuelv> noone I spoke to had heard anything about anything like this either
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  462. # [23:09] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@109.80-202-65.nextgentel.com) ("Ex-Chat")
  463. # [23:10] <hsivonen> Hixie: yes, I referred to Sam's icons again with reading the irc log first
  464. # [23:12] * Joins: gsnedders_ (n=gsnedder@host81-157-18-65.range81-157.btcentralplus.com)
  465. # [23:12] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-138-199-53.range86-138.btcentralplus.com) (Nick collision from services.)
  466. # [23:13] * gsnedders_ is now known as gsnedders
  467. # [23:14] * tommorris_ is now known as Socrates
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  470. # [23:24] * othermaciej is now known as om_afk
  471. # [23:25] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@124-168-8-145.dyn.iinet.net.au)
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  473. # [23:31] * Quits: dbaron_ (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  474. # [23:36] <Hixie> woot, the whatwg was cited in a paper: http://www.cs.uic.edu/~mter/htmi-xss.pdf
  475. # [23:37] <met_> Hixie, favicon http://acid3.acidtests.org/favicon.ico is only joke or is it real part of Acid3?
  476. # [23:39] <Hixie> there is no http://acid3.acidtests.org/favicon.ico
  477. # [23:39] <Hixie> that's a 404
  478. # [23:40] * Joins: tommorris (n=tommorri@i-83-67-98-32.freedom2surf.net)
  479. # [23:40] <Hixie> if you see that used as a favicon.ico, it's a bug
  480. # [23:40] <vlad_> not a 404 for me, unless your 404 serves a red image with a hand-drawn lion-thing
  481. # [23:40] <annevk> it does
  482. # [23:40] <Hixie> it does
  483. # [23:40] <annevk> :p
  484. # [23:41] <Hixie> hey anne
  485. # [23:41] <Hixie> nice vacation?
  486. # [23:41] <annevk> yeah, lots of snow :)
  487. # [23:41] <Hixie> cool
  488. # [23:41] <annevk> heading to San Diego now
  489. # [23:41] <met_> Hixie, thx misses 404 there, so bug in Firefox
  490. # [23:41] <annevk> CSS WG meeting starts tomorrow...
  491. # [23:42] * Quits: itpastorn (n=itpastor@139.57.227.87.static.th.siw.siwnet.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  492. # [23:44] <Hixie> annevk: enjoy
  493. # [23:44] <annevk> oh yes :)
  494. # [23:45] * om_afk wonders how the exciting charter discussion will go
  495. # [23:45] * Quits: met_ (n=Hassman@r5bx220.net.upc.cz) ("Chemists never die, they just stop reacting.")
  496. # [23:45] <Hixie> have you created yourself a bingo card yet? with squares like "fantasai brings up an irrelevant point" and "bert says javascript is irrelevant to the web" and so on?
  497. # [23:45] * annevk too
  498. # [23:45] <annevk> lol
  499. # [23:47] <Hixie> gsnedders: actually html5 is already under feature freeze :-)
  500. # [23:47] <Hixie> has been since late last year
  501. # [23:47] <Hixie> it's the main reason i didn't add workers
  502. # [23:49] <tommorris> does feature freeze mean that if an existing html4 behaviour has been removed it cannot be reinstated?
  503. # [23:49] <Hixie> no
  504. # [23:50] <Hixie> e.g. headers="" was added last week
  505. # [23:55] <gsnedders> Hixie: how solid feature freeze, though? We don't have SVG or MathML or the like in HTML 4/5, for example
  506. # [23:57] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  507. # [23:58] * Quits: tommorris_ (n=tommorri@i-83-67-98-32.freedom2surf.net) (Connection timed out)
  508. # Session Close: Wed Mar 26 00:00:00 2008

The end :)