/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-03-27 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Mar 27 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  6. # [00:01] <andersca_> wow
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  21. # [00:42] <Hixie> what itpastorn linked to is related to what acid3 used to test, but not quite the same
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  24. # [00:45] <Hixie> hmmmmmmm
  25. # [00:45] <Hixie> ok
  26. # [00:45] <Hixie> so
  27. # [00:45] <Hixie> custom data
  28. # [00:46] <Hixie> as in, here's an html element, but it represents something
  29. # [00:46] <Hixie> e.g. in a game, it represents a spaceship
  30. # [00:46] <Hixie> and the spaceship has certain properties
  31. # [00:46] <Hixie> like shield strength or whatever
  32. # [00:46] <annevk> <spaceship>
  33. # [00:46] <annevk> oh
  34. # [00:46] <annevk> role=spaceship
  35. # [00:46] <Hixie> well, we have class=spaceship
  36. # [00:47] <Hixie> which i think is file
  37. # [00:47] <Hixie> fine
  38. # [00:47] <Hixie> even
  39. # [00:47] * annevk was joking
  40. # [00:47] <Hixie> but that doesn't let you specify values
  41. # [00:47] <annevk> the second time, that is
  42. # [00:47] <Hixie> <div custom:shields=20>
  43. # [00:48] <Hixie> with custom: attributes going into http://www.w3.org/ns/private-use-area automatically
  44. # [00:48] <Hixie> <div custom-shields=20>
  45. # [00:48] <Hixie> with no namespaces, just a prefix
  46. # [00:49] <Hixie> the namespaces are good because they work well in svg and mathml too
  47. # [00:49] <Hixie> the prefix is good because it gives compat with legacy UAs in the DOM APIs
  48. # [00:49] <annevk> and can be made to work with SVG and MathML as well
  49. # [00:49] <annevk> they should become more unified anyway
  50. # [00:50] <annevk> class=/style= processing, for instance
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  52. # [00:57] <Philip`> Or <div -custom-shields=20> because that's more like the normal non-standard extension syntax in some places
  53. # [00:58] <annevk> but this is a standard extension syntax :)
  54. # [00:58] <Philip`> That's '(non-standard extension) syntax', not 'non-standard (extension syntax)' :-)
  55. # [00:58] <Hixie> what anne said
  56. # [00:58] <Hixie> heh
  57. # [00:58] <Hixie> yeah
  58. # [00:58] <Hixie> maybe
  59. # [00:58] <Hixie> i don't think i want this confused with vendor extensions though
  60. # [00:58] <Philip`> The extensions themselves are always going to be non-standard
  61. # [01:01] <Hixie> i like the colon in this context, i have to say
  62. # [01:01] <Philip`> If it's using namespaces, I hope getAttribute('custom:shields') would still work, since I'd be too lazy to look up the namespace name and remember the getAttributeNS argument order so I'd just use custom-shields instead
  63. # [01:01] <Hixie> it wouldn't work
  64. # [01:01] <Philip`> Oh
  65. # [01:01] <Hixie> i don't know that the svg and math groups would like us just littering all their schemas with custom- attributes
  66. # [01:05] <Hixie> i suppose we could make the custom namespace be something simple
  67. # [01:05] <Hixie> like 'custom'
  68. # [01:05] * jgraham__ fears the colon
  69. # [01:05] <Hixie> or 'pua'
  70. # [01:06] <Hixie> and blow the whole "must be a uri!" malarky
  71. # [01:06] <annevk> introducing colons in HTML is a bikeshed
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  73. # [01:06] <jgraham__> (but only because I think people will expect full namesspaces-in-xml to work in html)
  74. # [01:06] <Hixie> i don't think introducing colons in HTML is a bikeshed in the original meaning of the term
  75. # [01:06] <Hixie> jgraham__: they'll be sadly disappointed
  76. # [01:06] <annevk> i admit defeat :)
  77. # [01:07] <gsnedders> I. want. green.
  78. # [01:07] <annevk> though I don't like it at all as it makes setAttribute() more complex etc.
  79. # [01:07] <Philip`> A bikeshed is just something that you've decided is wrong but don't have a compelling argument for :-)
  80. # [01:08] <annevk> ok
  81. # [01:08] <annevk> introducing colons in HTML is wrong
  82. # [01:08] <Philip`> Why?
  83. # [01:08] <Hixie> he doesn't have a compelling argument
  84. # [01:08] <Hixie> didn't we just go through that? :-)
  85. # [01:09] <jgraham__> Hixie: So you propose that custom be the only namespace prefix and i only work on attributes, or something else?
  86. # [01:09] <Hixie> correct
  87. # [01:09] <annevk> heh
  88. # [01:09] <Philip`> Just trying to either demonstrate the point or have a counterexample demonstrated :-)
  89. # [01:09] <annevk> colon is heavily XML-overloaded
  90. # [01:09] <annevk> no need to bring that complexity to HTML
  91. # [01:09] <Hixie> if we go with namespaces on attributes, and we _don't_ use the colon, it won't map to XML at all well
  92. # [01:10] <annevk> imagine explaining what happens with custom:foobar in a book
  93. # [01:10] <Hixie> and frankly, this is an area where i think namespaced attributes are the technically good solution, in the absence of compatibility and usability
  94. # [01:10] <jgraham__> So what happens if you want to introduce a new element (obviously there are arguments as to why this might be a bad idea)
  95. # [01:10] <Hixie> jgraham__: you use <div> or <span> and give it a class.
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  97. # [01:10] <Hixie> jgraham__: new "elements" are the easy problem. it's name-value pairs that are hard.
  98. # [01:10] <annevk> sounds like an argument for <custom:...>
  99. # [01:11] <jgraham__> <div class="canvas">?
  100. # [01:11] <annevk> which is a small step away from xmlns:custom=...
  101. # [01:11] <Hixie> that wouldn't work, e.g. in tables, if you want to associate stuff with <tr>
  102. # [01:11] <Hixie> jgraham__: we're talking about author extensions, not vendor extensions
  103. # [01:12] <jgraham__> With scripting the difference between authors and vendors isn't so large
  104. # [01:12] <Hixie> large enough for me
  105. # [01:12] <Hixie> :-)
  106. # [01:13] <jgraham__> I can't say I particularly disagree, but I won't be surprised if others do
  107. # [01:13] <Hixie> sure
  108. # [01:14] <annevk> having both would work
  109. # [01:14] <annevk> custom elements makes sense for XBL
  110. # [01:15] <Hixie> why?
  111. # [01:15] <Hixie> you mean in the shadow tree?
  112. # [01:15] * jgraham__ -> bed
  113. # [01:15] <Hixie> or for binding
  114. # [01:15] <Hixie> for xbl, and for aria for that matter, and libraries, you want to "bind" to the most appropriate html element, so that the document still mostly works without them
  115. # [01:15] * om_hack is now known as othermaciej
  116. # [01:15] <annevk> for the bound element
  117. # [01:16] <annevk> <spaceship>
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  119. # [01:16] <annevk> <cart>
  120. # [01:17] <annevk> (i'm not sure why <div class=cart> would be better apart from maybe being slightly faster with styling given cached class names)
  121. # [01:17] <Hixie> well ideally it wouldn't be <div>
  122. # [01:20] <Hixie> man, svg is worthless
  123. # [01:20] <Hixie> wtf are the ua conf requirements for <hkern u="">?
  124. # [01:20] <Hixie> u1 rather
  125. # [01:20] <Hixie> and u2
  126. # [01:23] <annevk> I've no idea
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  132. # [01:35] <Hixie> annevk: yt?
  133. # [01:35] <Hixie> annevk: can you check that the build that got 100/100 did go down to 99/100?
  134. # [01:36] <annevk> no, but i'm passing on the change madea
  135. # [01:36] <Hixie> please do get someone to confirm that the score went down
  136. # [01:37] <Hixie> otherwise there's another bug in the test
  137. # [01:37] <annevk> kk, i guess i'll hear it at some point
  138. # [01:37] <Hixie> thanks
  139. # [01:38] <annevk> not exactly day time in Norway :)
  140. # [01:38] <annevk> / Sweden
  141. # [01:38] <Hixie> yeah
  142. # [01:46] <othermaciej> maybe better here
  143. # [01:46] <othermaciej> Hixie: you have to give the EE glyph a glyph-name="EE" too
  144. # [01:48] <Hixie> oh
  145. # [01:48] <Hixie> so how did opera pass this?
  146. # [01:48] <Hixie> that makes no sense to me
  147. # [01:48] <Hixie> where do i add this glyph-name thing... hmm...
  148. # [01:48] <Hixie> wait, it already has unicode=EE
  149. # [01:48] <Hixie> that's not enough?
  150. # [01:49] <Hixie> oh that's the kerned version?
  151. # [01:49] <Hixie> wait
  152. # [01:49] <Hixie> i'm VERY confused now
  153. # [01:49] <heycam> Hixie, no it needs an explicit name
  154. # [01:49] <othermaciej> the EE glyph spec should be this: e('glyph', { 'unicode': 'EE', 'd': 'M100,0 h100 v-100 h-100 z', 'horiz-adv-x': '1300', 'glyph-name': 'EE'})
  155. # [01:49] <othermaciej> the kerning pair references it by name now, not by unicode value
  156. # [01:49] <othermaciej> those are separate
  157. # [01:49] <othermaciej> (insanely enough)
  158. # [01:49] <Hixie> so that's the unicode=EE thing??
  159. # [01:49] <Hixie> what
  160. # [01:49] <Hixie> rather
  161. # [01:49] <heycam> unicode gives the actual characters that map to the glyph
  162. # [01:49] <othermaciej> unicode=EE is the chars the glyph mathces
  163. # [01:49] <heycam> the name could be anything
  164. # [01:49] <othermaciej> but kerning pairs match differently than glyphs
  165. # [01:50] <othermaciej> (insanely enough)
  166. # [01:50] <heycam> glyph-name="theEEGlyph" e.g.
  167. # [01:50] <Hixie> ok fixed
  168. # [01:50] <Hixie> so why is u2=EE wrong, given that unicode=EE is ok?
  169. # [01:50] <Hixie> u2 is defined in terms of unicode, no?
  170. # [01:50] <Hixie> so confused
  171. # [01:51] <heycam> no, u2 is a list of characters (and possible ranges) -- it could be "E,U+1234-U+1300"
  172. # [01:51] <heycam> iirc
  173. # [01:52] <heycam> oh, mistake in the spec
  174. # [01:52] <heycam> s/<number>/<character>/g in the u2="" definition
  175. # [01:52] <annevk> omg
  176. # [01:52] <othermaciej> Hixie: unicode is a string of characters, u2 is a comma-separated list
  177. # [01:52] * annevk suggests dropping all SVG tests
  178. # [01:53] <Hixie> ok fuck this, we're not adding svg to html5
  179. # [01:54] <annevk> lets add svg5
  180. # [01:54] <othermaciej> svg fonts are one of the more insane parts
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  184. # [02:10] <Hixie> gah this custom data thing is dhard
  185. # [02:10] <Hixie> it's actually hard to come up with real examples
  186. # [02:11] <Pavlov_> er, the test is changing after it was published?
  187. # [02:12] <Hixie> to fix bugs that have been found, yes
  188. # [02:12] <Pavlov_> thats kind of confusing my brain
  189. # [02:12] <Pavlov_> but OK
  190. # [02:13] <Hixie> one advantage of not trying to pass the test straight away is that you don't have to worry about such changes :-)
  191. # [02:13] <Hixie> it's just like point releases for software
  192. # [02:13] <Hixie> for security fixes
  193. # [02:13] <Hixie> and stuff
  194. # [02:13] <Pavlov_> except it isn't
  195. # [02:13] <tomg> Acid3 SP1
  196. # [02:13] <Pavlov_> sure
  197. # [02:13] <Pavlov_> i'd rev the version
  198. # [02:14] <Pavlov_> its just confusing to target one thing and then have it change
  199. # [02:14] <Hixie> the target is the spec
  200. # [02:14] <Hixie> not the test
  201. # [02:14] <Hixie> targetting the test is missing the point
  202. # [02:15] <Pavlov_> so everyone has missed the point?
  203. # [02:15] <Hixie> that's a common problem
  204. # [02:15] <Hixie> the webkit guys haven't been targetting the test, that's why they keep finding the bugs in the test :-)
  205. # [02:15] <Pavlov_> adding an idl file to pass the test isn't targetting the test?
  206. # [02:15] <Hixie> they've been prioritising passing the test
  207. # [02:16] <Hixie> that's not the same as just changing the code to pass the test
  208. # [02:16] <Hixie> (which i don't think anyone would actually do, reddit crowd notwithstanding)
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  213. # [02:20] <Hixie> Philip`: ironically, doing getAttributeNS() is exactly what you say you do (and want to have still work in text/html) in your e-mail http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Mar/0156.html
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  217. # [02:32] <Hixie> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/CustomData
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  222. # [03:16] <vlad_> Hixie: what was the acid3 "fix"?
  223. # [03:17] <vlad_> is there a revision log somewhere with changes?
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  227. # [03:25] <Nabeel_co> does Opera fully pass Acid3 now?
  228. # [03:26] <vlad_> they did for about 2 hours today
  229. # [03:27] <Nabeel_co> i thought there were still some rendering issues.
  230. # [03:27] <jruderman> "for about 2 hours"?
  231. # [03:28] <G0k> acid tests should be scored as pH
  232. # [03:28] <Nabeel_co> acid3 was updated?!?
  233. # [03:29] <Pavlov_> again
  234. # [03:29] <Nabeel_co> thats what wiki is saying...
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  237. # [04:01] <othermaciej> http://webkit.org/blog/173/webkit-achieves-acid3-100100-in-public-build/
  238. # [04:06] <G0k> so how we doing on acid5?
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  243. # [05:02] * mpt pre-orders the "Acid5 > Acid2" t-shirt
  244. # [05:03] <othermaciej> haha
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  249. # [05:48] <othermaciej> Hixie: I think we have a rendering pass now
  250. # [05:48] <othermaciej> Hixie: but I can't really tell on the animation smoothness
  251. # [05:48] <othermaciej> it looks smooth to me in a release build on my MacBook Pro, but I don't exactly have the best calibrated eyeballs
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  283. # [08:31] <hsivonen> Hixie: umm. the colon is bad exactly for the same reasons it was bad for ARIA
  284. # [08:36] <Hixie> i didn't say it was good
  285. # [08:36] <Hixie> i haven't found a good solution yet
  286. # [08:38] <hsivonen> Philip`'s custom data example was in XML or was it even SVG
  287. # [08:38] <hsivonen> the Inkscape cruft and similar happen in SVG trees
  288. # [08:38] <hsivonen> where the legacy considerations are differnt from HTML
  289. # [08:40] * MikeSmith wonders if hendry is around
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  291. # [08:52] <hsivonen> hmm. Adobe dilutes the Photoshop brand with a Flash app that is less photoshop-like than competing flash apps...
  292. # [09:00] * Pavlov_ is now known as Pavlov
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  296. # [09:29] <hsivonen> is it known whether http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-role-20080318/ arose of stated use cases?
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  299. # [09:45] <Hixie> i wish the people who keep saying acid3 doesn't test useful stuff would be more specific about what's not useful
  300. # [09:45] <Hixie> sigh
  301. # [09:48] <othermaciej> it is edge casey but in many cases that forced us to implement non-edge cases of things too
  302. # [09:49] <othermaciej> I do think testing DOM 2 Events is pretty useful, if way belated
  303. # [09:49] <Hixie> i think i probably overstepped usefulness with the dom traversal tests
  304. # [09:50] <Hixie> but not sure what else to test with it
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  333. # [12:33] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  334. # [12:33] * Set by gsnedders on Tue Dec 18 21:41:19
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  339. # [13:28] * Set by gsnedders on Tue Dec 18 21:41:19
  340. # [13:35] <zcorpan> custom no-namespace attributes starting with underscore or so would be convenient, i think
  341. # [13:36] <zcorpan> <img class=reflect _height=25 _ropacity=25>
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  344. # [13:38] <hendry> MikeSmith: yes?
  345. # [13:39] <MikeSmith> hendry - wanted to ask if you knew much about details of JSR 248
  346. # [13:40] <MikeSmith> in particular, does it include the location API
  347. # [13:40] <MikeSmith> (I forgot what the JSR number for that is)
  348. # [13:40] <hendry> MikeSmith: JSR179
  349. # [13:41] <hendry> i don't know the details off hand
  350. # [13:41] <MikeSmith> OK
  351. # [13:41] * hendry is sick at home with flu :/ bit useless today
  352. # [13:41] <MikeSmith> The JCP annoyingly only provides specs in PDF form
  353. # [13:42] <MikeSmith> I'll quit being lazy and I'll go ahead and download the PDF and see
  354. # [13:45] <MikeSmith> hmm
  355. # [13:46] <MikeSmith> hendry - it says that JSR 179 is "conditionally mandatory"
  356. # [13:46] <MikeSmith> whatever tf that means
  357. # [13:47] <MikeSmith> [[
  358. # [13:47] <MikeSmith> JSR 179 MUST be implemented if the target device meets at least one of the following
  359. # [13:47] <MikeSmith> conditions:
  360. # [13:47] <MikeSmith> • The device has a GPS receiver that is able to deliver the geographical coordinates
  361. # [13:47] <MikeSmith> within the device
  362. # [13:47] <MikeSmith> • The device supports a location method that is capable of delivering the geographical
  363. # [13:47] <MikeSmith> coordinates and is used to deliver the coordinates to downloadable applications (in
  364. # [13:47] <MikeSmith> Java ME or other runtime platforms)
  365. # [13:47] <MikeSmith> • The device supports an accessory device that can be used to obtain geographical
  366. # [13:47] <MikeSmith> coordinates, and which is used to deliver the location to downloadable applications
  367. # [13:47] <MikeSmith> (in Java ME or other runtime platforms)
  368. # [13:47] <MikeSmith> ]]
  369. # [13:47] <MikeSmith> oops
  370. # [13:47] <MikeSmith> sorry
  371. # [13:47] <MikeSmith> that was a bit more than I intended to paste..
  372. # [13:49] <MikeSmith> so seems, in a nutshell, if any device supports has some kind of location-sensing capability and it claims to comply with JSR 248, then it must support JSR 179
  373. # [13:54] <MikeSmith> and my understanding is that JSR 248 is supposed to be sort of the baseline/"lowest common denominator" set of JSRs that Java ME environments should support
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  380. # [14:37] <takkaria> hmm. I wonder if the correct way to mark up the term "a priori" is with <i>
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  383. # [14:52] <Philip`> takkaria: <span lang="la">a priori</a> <style>[lang="la"]{font-style:italic}</style>
  384. # [14:53] <BenMillard> Philip`, that doesn't degrade as nicely as <i lang> would when author CSS is not used
  385. # [14:54] <BenMillard> both seem fine to me
  386. # [14:55] <takkaria> Philip`: hm, interesting
  387. # [14:55] <takkaria> I should have thought of lang
  388. # [14:55] <hsivonen> Philip`: would you expect a proper Latin pronunciation or an English approximation?
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  390. # [14:57] <Philip`> BenMillard: But the italic styling is just a presentational effect that is conventional in high-res visual contexts with suitable text rendering, and isn't universally applicable, whereas any UA could process lang=la in a suitable way for its particular medium
  391. # [14:58] <hsivonen> Philip`: my point is: is proper Latin pronunciation really the suitable thing for a user whose listening comprehension is calibrated for English?
  392. # [14:59] <BenMillard> Philip`, <i> does not preclude UAs doing their own thing: user stylesheets can override the italic with something more approrpriate, although I've no idea what that would be
  393. # [15:00] <BenMillard> also, for the languages where <i> is conventional, you don't need "high-res visual contexts which suitable text rendering". for example, Lynx running on a terminal will apply colour rather than italicising
  394. # [15:00] <BenMillard> s/which/with
  395. # [15:01] <Philip`> BenMillard: <i> doesn't allow UAs to distinguish the Latin italics from the e.g. ship name italics
  396. # [15:01] <Philip`> ...though I suppose you should use <i lang="la"> then
  397. # [15:02] <BenMillard> yes, my suggestion was <i lang> rather than <span lang>. I could have made that clearer :)
  398. # [15:02] <Philip`> hsivonen: Hmm, I suppose that's a problem
  399. # [15:03] <Philip`> Maybe it should be lang="en-la" or something
  400. # [15:03] <Philip`> (though that's probably incorrect usage)
  401. # [15:03] <BenMillard> English is a melting pot of lots of languages; I think Latin phrases like which have been in use as long as they have are basically English now
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  403. # [15:04] <Philip`> BenMillard: There are lots of words that nobody even notices are based on Latin, but there are still words and phrases that people tend to write in italics to indicate that they're foreign
  404. # [15:04] <BenMillard> indeed, there are basically 3 categories as I understand it:
  405. # [15:05] <BenMillard> 1. English words
  406. # [15:05] <BenMillard> 2. words from other languages commonly used in English and pronounced as English (such as these Latin phrases)
  407. # [15:05] <BenMillard> 3. foreign words
  408. # [15:05] <BenMillard> 2. could use <i>foo</i>
  409. # [15:06] <BenMillard> 3. could use <i lang>foo</i>?
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  411. # [15:06] <takkaria> the italicising of a priori (et al) seem to me to be equivalent to using scare quotes round a word
  412. # [15:06] <takkaria> "Our 'a priori' knowledge of the world..." vs. "Our /a priori/ knowledge of the world..."
  413. # [15:07] <takkaria> not necessarily an indication of the source language
  414. # [15:08] <Philip`> I think italicising a priori makes it much easier to read, because otherwise I start to read as if it was talking about a priory and then have to backtrack and switch to a pseudo-Latin mode and carry on
  415. # [15:08] <Philip`> s/italicising/visually distinguishing in some way/
  416. # [15:09] <Philip`> It would be much easier if England hadn't got itself invaded so much
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  418. # [15:13] <BenMillard> we've avoided that for nearly 1,000 years, IIRC. the source of our diversity is a very long history
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  427. # [16:02] <Camaban> Philip`: we did our fair share of invading back :)
  428. # [16:06] <BenMillard> camaban, yeah and brought even more new words back with us :P
  429. # [16:07] <Camaban> and curry
  430. # [16:07] <Camaban> mmmm
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  441. # [16:43] * Philip` sees http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/cgi/issues.cgi/folder_expand/global-custom pointing to http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2007/04/html_5.html pointing to http://www.alistapart.com/articles/scripttriggers/ suggesting to use a custom DTD so that custom attributes are valid, which doesn't sound like a good idea
  442. # [16:44] <Philip`> Also that last page's custom attributes seem to conflict with WF2, which doesn't sound good either
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  450. # [17:04] <Philip`> By the way, why does A List Apart say "Was it good for you, too?" at the end of the articles? That really doesn't fit with the style of the site
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  470. # [18:18] <zcorpan> html5 parsing of <noframes></noframes><frameset>... seems to be incompatible with real pages
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  475. # [18:35] <hendry> MikeSmith: You're right there
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  490. # [19:58] <mitsuhiko> Hixie: i think the problem is that Acid3 divided web developers and useres into ie|firefox and webkit|opera ;) now the mozilla guys have to come up with explanations why they fail the test, and obviously the first one is that acid3 doesn't matter
  491. # [19:59] <mitsuhiko> beside that are they correct. acid3 doesn't matter *as long* as firefox and IE are failing it as they have the lion share of the browser market currently
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  496. # [20:04] <Philip`> Acid3 only matters if people think it matters - otherwise it's just like any other list of browser bugs that might hang around for years with nobody caring enough to fix them
  497. # [20:05] <annevk> same goes for standards in general
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  499. # [20:09] <othermaciej> major browser vendors saying it doesn't matter does create something of a self-fulfilling prophecy perhaps
  500. # [20:09] <othermaciej> still, I think Acid2 ended up mattering, despite being initially downplayed in some quarters
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  507. # [20:27] <Hixie> zcorpan_: don't want the custom attributes to be _too_ convenient... just more convenient than abusing html and clashing with future extensions
  508. # [20:28] <BenMillard> oh, that sounds like the tail end of a conversation I wish I'd been here for. *runs off to the IRC logs*
  509. # [20:30] <annevk> there needs to be enough encouragement for people to use them
  510. # [20:30] <annevk> custom attributes are causing pain for Web Forms 2 already
  511. # [20:30] <annevk> (I didn't see what zcorpan_ said btw)
  512. # [20:32] <Hixie> he said to use _foo=""
  513. # [20:32] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no)
  514. # [20:32] <annevk> wfm, but I wonder if authors would do that correctly
  515. # [20:33] <annevk> maybe x-
  516. # [20:35] <annevk> nah, dismiss that
  517. # [20:35] <annevk> x is experimental, not custom
  518. # [20:35] <BenMillard> c-foo?
  519. # [20:36] <BenMillard> less characters the better
  520. # [20:36] <BenMillard> nearer to other HTML attributes the better
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  522. # [20:36] <Hixie> custom attribute technique
  523. # [20:36] <Hixie> cat-
  524. # [20:37] <Hixie> i was also thinking pua-, custom-, private-
  525. # [20:37] <Hixie> but all this is moot when you consider that the use case Philip` pointd out is already abuse
  526. # [20:38] <Hixie> class="ropacity25"
  527. # [20:38] <BenMillard> I remember chatting about this briefly in a taxi with hsivonen during the HTMLWG F2F in Boston 2007
  528. # [20:39] * BenMillard is still reading through the log for today
  529. # [20:44] <BenMillard> the thing I'm most interested by is removing data from the title attribute and putting it somewhere out of the way
  530. # [20:45] <BenMillard> Microformats put various types of data in title which are not human-readable
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  533. # [20:46] <annevk> fwiw, if there's a lot of deployed content that'd be hard to change
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  540. # [20:51] <BenMillard> annevk, the Microformats authors generally seem responsive to developments in the formats. so perhaps not impossible
  541. # [20:51] * Joins: eseidelDesk (n=eseidelD@nat/google/x-592bfd9b4642e2a1)
  542. # [20:52] <BenMillard> I mean, authors who use Microformats
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  544. # [21:01] <annevk> k
  545. # [21:01] <hsivonen> _foo is ugly but WFM
  546. # [21:02] <annevk> -x apparently does not work for XML
  547. # [21:02] <hsivonen> I think human-unfriendly data in title is an antipattern
  548. # [21:03] <hsivonen> Hixie: Dojo has lots of custom attribute use cases, though I don't expect you to like them :-)
  549. # [21:03] <Hixie> yeah, i know
  550. # [21:04] <Hixie> custom-foo= or private-foo= seem like the most plausible solutions
  551. # [21:05] <hsivonen> "custom-" and "private-" are longish
  552. # [21:06] <Hixie> yes
  553. # [21:07] <mitsuhiko> annevk: why not :?
  554. # [21:08] <Lachy> the problem with custom- and private- prefixes will be getting authors to use them, which will be difficult given their length
  555. # [21:09] <Hixie> the problem with _foo is that it's ugly and doesn't convey that it's not really ok
  556. # [21:09] <mitsuhiko> (as a python programmer _foo means don't touch it)
  557. # [21:10] <hsivonen> I think conveying that you don't think custom attrs are OK by making them suck is not a good policy
  558. # [21:10] <Hixie> why not?
  559. # [21:10] <Hixie> how else would we do it?
  560. # [21:10] <Hixie> and it's not like custom- and private- suck _that_ much
  561. # [21:10] <Hixie> no more than _, imho
  562. # [21:10] <BenMillard> they are readable, as a pro
  563. # [21:11] <hsivonen> Hixie: what's the harm with custom attributes vs. loading script data over, say, XHR?
  564. # [21:11] <Hixie> hsivonen: nothing, that's a valid use. the problem is when people start using them for things that should be in html markup
  565. # [21:11] <annevk> mitsuhiko, mostly because it clashes with XML
  566. # [21:11] <Hixie> e.g. <div class=progress _min=0 _current=5 _max=100></div>
  567. # [21:11] <annevk> mitsuhiko, just like starting with -
  568. # [21:11] <hsivonen> <html custom-ua-compatible='...'>
  569. # [21:12] <Hixie> ?
  570. # [21:12] <annevk> something IE could do to sneak past validators
  571. # [21:12] <mitsuhiko> annevk: xml doesn't disallow : per se, but xmlns aware parsers would probably irk
  572. # [21:12] <annevk> mitsuhiko, oh, that may be true, but the world is based on namespace aware parsers :)
  573. # [21:13] <mitsuhiko> touche ;)
  574. # [21:13] <mitsuhiko> annevk: i did too much wordpress lately
  575. # [21:13] <mitsuhiko> they are parsing with regular expressions..
  576. # [21:13] <Hixie> and yes, letting vendors invent new values that end up passing through here is another problem
  577. # [21:14] * Joins: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober)
  578. # [21:14] <hsivonen> hmm. I think "Required Child Elements" in ARIA means "Only kind of permitted child elements"
  579. # [21:15] <BenMillard> annevk, what's the difference between experimental and custom?
  580. # [21:15] <annevk> experimental is not conforming
  581. # [21:16] <BenMillard> ah, thanks
  582. # [21:16] <hsivonen> Experimental is deployed by multiple parties forever. Custom is deployed by a single party.
  583. # [21:16] <annevk> true, experimental is generally a bad idea
  584. # [21:16] <annevk> imagine having to standardize on <x-canvas>
  585. # [21:17] <BenMillard> experimental features which prove useful enough are then standardised as standard features, without experimental syntax, and the people who participated in the experiment update their content?
  586. # [21:18] <Hixie> haha
  587. # [21:18] <hsivonen> is there existing content with treegrids built out of SVG?
  588. # [21:18] <Hixie> BenMillard: precisely. except for the bit where the name changes. :-)
  589. # [21:18] <Hixie> actually that's not really fair
  590. # [21:18] <Hixie> css has good experience getting names changed after the experimental phase
  591. # [21:19] <hsivonen> will be fun to see if MS actually changes any NS URIs in OOXML...
  592. # [21:19] <annevk> wow: http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/?p=50
  593. # [21:19] <hsivonen> the reason why I ask about treegrids is that I'm considering sending a comment about optimizing grid and treegrid for <table> and making them <table>-only
  594. # [21:22] <BenMillard> hixie, CSS property names and values were examples I was going to give
  595. # [21:23] <BenMillard> annevk, what do you find surprising about that piece?
  596. # [21:23] <jgraham__> In Steve's blog post, what is a line?
  597. # [21:23] <annevk> with CSS it sort of works because of the "error handling" is vastly different
  598. # [21:23] <annevk> BenMillard, the way he tries to bash Hixie
  599. # [21:24] <annevk> without really good reason, because the case Hixie was talking about doesn't work well by default and the Jaws people actually acted on bug reports done by Hixie
  600. # [21:24] <jgraham__> Because if I understand correctly, Jaws sounds, naively, broken by design
  601. # [21:25] <jgraham__> (as in, my naive reaction to its behaviour is "that's broken")
  602. # [21:26] <BenMillard> yes, I get the feeling they have such a hard time squeezing any amount of accessibility from all the desktop apps and formats their customers what to use that basic "fit and polish" gets a bit neglected
  603. # [21:27] <BenMillard> s/what/want
  604. # [21:27] * jgraham__ seriously hopes the open source screen readers shake up the market
  605. # [21:28] <BenMillard> time for dinner, bye all
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  607. # [21:28] <Hixie> hm, henri once suggested just using script-private="..."
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  610. # [21:38] <hsivonen> hmm. does VoiceOver have a command "read from this point onwards until I press a key"?
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  615. # [21:49] <Philip`> Lachy: The only people who will use a specified custom-attribute syntax will be people who care about conformance, because people who don't care can just use anything they like and it'll work just as well; and for the people who do care, they'll do the easiest thing the conformance checker lets them get away with, and 'custom-foo' is easier than adding attributes through script or writing a custom DTD
  616. # [21:50] * Joins: sayrer (n=chatzill@66.37.169.174)
  617. # [21:53] <Lachy> Philip`, it's the ones that don't care about validation that are the problem.
  618. # [21:54] <Philip`> Lachy: There's nothing we can do to those people
  619. # [21:54] <Philip`> (unless they use libraries written by people who do care)
  620. # [21:55] <Philip`> We're not adding any feature, we're just changing conformance, so people who don't care about conformance won't be affected at all
  621. # [22:01] <Lachy> Philip`, one of the problems that custom attributes is attempting to solve is reducing the possibility of clashes, especially with future standards.
  622. # [22:03] <zcorpan_> css has solved that neatly
  623. # [22:03] <zcorpan_> (without namespace indirection)
  624. # [22:03] <Lachy> finding a solution that is as easy or easier to use than not using it increases the chance that people who don't care so much about validation will use it
  625. # [22:03] * Joins: epeus (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-3f87be5355749e37)
  626. # [22:04] <Philip`> zcorpan_: Custom extensions to CSS are useless because they don't do anything at all, which is why nobody does that and there's no problem
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  628. # [22:04] <zcorpan_> Philip`: there's UA-specific extensions
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  631. # [22:06] <Philip`> zcorpan_: UA-specific extensions are done by people who know what they're doing and tend to follow guidelines, which is totally different from custom attributes in HTML content
  632. # [22:07] <zcorpan_> Philip`: yes, but the same syntax can be used for html nevertheless
  633. # [22:09] <othermaciej> I don't know if UA-specific extensions are always done by people who know what they are doing
  634. # [22:09] <othermaciej> I mean, look at <canvas>
  635. # [22:09] <othermaciej> it would be nice if HTML had a good design for how to do experimental UA-specific extensions
  636. # [22:09] <othermaciej> without overconstraining future standards
  637. # [22:11] <zcorpan_> but there's no guideline for how to extend html
  638. # [22:17] <Hixie> ok so i've been thinking about the author custom data thing
  639. # [22:17] <Hixie> it's usually for including data about an element that html has no way to mark up
  640. # [22:17] <Hixie> so why not introduce a prefix "data-"
  641. # [22:18] <Hixie> as in, <li class="drink" data-alcohol="0.5" data-color="blue"> Antikka </li>
  642. # [22:18] <Hixie> we can also add HTMLElement.data as an object that can be indexed to obtain the attributes' values
  643. # [22:18] <Hixie> as in, li.data.alcohol, li.data.blue
  644. # [22:19] <zcorpan_> doesn't it clash with <object data>?
  645. # [22:19] <Hixie> this would not be available on HTMLObjectElement (<object>)
  646. # [22:19] <hober> s/blue/color/
  647. # [22:19] <Hixie> hober: right, sorry
  648. # [22:19] <Hixie> zcorpan_: yeah, wouldn't be available on <object>
  649. # [22:20] <zcorpan_> Hixie: that would be bad
  650. # [22:20] <zcorpan_> i like the idea though
  651. # [22:20] <zcorpan_> just come up with a name that doesn't clash with existing attributes :)
  652. # [22:20] <Philip`> 'datum'
  653. # [22:21] * Philip` hates that word
  654. # [22:23] <Philip`> It seems slightly irritating to tell people to use data-foo and .data.foo but then tell them to actually use getAttribute('data-foo') for the next half a decade until browser support has propagated through the market sufficiently
  655. # [22:23] <zcorpan_> _foo and getAttribute('_foo') would work for me ;)
  656. # [22:23] <hober> what does this do in IE? http://tinyurl.com/2nn5ll
  657. # [22:23] <zcorpan_> or -foo or whatever prefix
  658. # [22:23] <Hixie> Philip`: well, we just don't mention .data for now
  659. # [22:24] <zcorpan_> hober: $ can't be used in xml
  660. # [22:24] <hober> figures :(
  661. # [22:24] <Philip`> and .data.foo isn't much easier to type, and there are lots more special cases to remember (<div data-var=...>) or to catch you out because you actually won't remember
  662. # [22:25] <Philip`> (<div data-mean=... data-var=...> wouldn't be implausible)
  663. # [22:25] <Philip`> ((or <td> or whatever))
  664. # [22:26] <Philip`> Oh, you could just use .data['var'] all the time instead, to avoid the special cases
  665. # [22:26] <Hixie> yeah
  666. # [22:28] <Hixie> ok well i'm gonna go to work, but unless someone finds a better solution, i'm going with data-*="" and .data[*] (the latter not being available on <object> for historical reasons)
  667. # [22:28] <Hixie> bbiab
  668. # [22:45] <jgraham> Incidentally, I don't really consider "animation without script" to be a problem description (specifically it needs justification as to why lack of script is a desirable property)
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  670. # [22:50] <hsivonen> isn't animation without script now in Acid3, so extending it to HTML would make the code needed to pass Acid3 more useful
  671. # [22:52] <othermaciej> I think CSS animation is a better way to bring animations without script to HTML
  672. # [22:52] <othermaciej> and that does not share all *that* much of the code with SVG (though you can share some of the animation controller back end)
  673. # [22:52] <Lachy> hsivonen, what animation in acid3 is done without script?
  674. # [22:52] <othermaciej> Lachy: the SVG Animation tests
  675. # [22:52] <Lachy> oh, right
  676. # [22:52] <othermaciej> (using SVG's SMIL-like animation)
  677. # [22:53] <jgraham> hsivonen: That might be tru but it's still not a valid use case for animtion without script
  678. # [22:53] * Joins: roc (n=roc@124-171-48-187.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  679. # [22:54] <othermaciej> I could imagine a "multimedia" style piece of animated content that was more document-like than app-like
  680. # [22:54] <hsivonen> jgraham: is wanting to do Flash-like things without plug-ins more valid?
  681. # [22:54] <othermaciej> I could see reasons to want such a thing to want to work without script
  682. # [22:54] <othermaciej> Flash-like is of course not very aligned with "without script"
  683. # [22:54] <jgraham> hsivonen: you still need to justify "without script"
  684. # [22:55] <jgraham> (the common W3C justification is that it's easier to author)
  685. # [22:55] <hsivonen> jgraham: I take it that "without Flash" is more justified :-)
  686. # [22:55] <jgraham> (but I'm not sure I believe that)
  687. # [22:55] * Quits: roc (n=roc@124-171-48-187.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  688. # [22:55] <jgraham> hsivonen: without Flash is fine by me :)
  689. # [22:56] * Joins: roc (n=roc@124-171-48-187.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  690. # [23:03] <roc> sorry for joining late, but did anyone mention that doing animation without script is useful because it lets the user agent control the frame rate and synchronize all running animations at each frame?
  691. # [23:04] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au)
  692. # [23:04] <othermaciej> animation without script is indeed a case where performance and accuracy can be improved with an approach that isn't all script
  693. # [23:04] <othermaciej> (doesn't necessarily need to be "without script", for example, this is still possible if script defines an animation and then fires it to be driven by the UA)
  694. # [23:05] <roc> sure
  695. # [23:05] <othermaciej> (but I kinda like the CSS declarative model at least for transitions)
  696. # [23:05] <roc> so do I
  697. # [23:06] <othermaciej> though you can't always trigger the CSS state change without script for all useful cases
  698. # [23:06] <othermaciej> but often it only takes a wee little bit of script, and cases like :hover work with no script at all
  699. # [23:07] <othermaciej> an equivalent of HTML <button> that can toggle in a way that CSS selectors can see would help many other likely cases be totally script-free
  700. # [23:08] <roc> :active doesn't do it?
  701. # [23:08] <Philip`> "cases like :hover" - isn't that the only case where you can get anything dynamic?
  702. # [23:10] <othermaciej> roc: toggles like a checkbox I mean
  703. # [23:10] <annevk> .data sounds like it will clash with existing stuff
  704. # [23:10] <othermaciej> not toggles while the mouse is down
  705. # [23:10] <roc> ah
  706. # [23:11] <othermaciej> <input type="checkbox"> can't have content
  707. # [23:11] <othermaciej> so you can't just use that
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  709. # [23:21] <annevk> Hixie, the Acid3 fix did make us go to 99%
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  714. # [23:24] * heycam notes that from the acid test correction it looks like i hate svg, which clearly isn't true :)
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  717. # [23:34] <othermaciej> heycam: I have to give you credit for impressive work with test 79 btw
  718. # [23:34] <othermaciej> for WebKit at least it was by far the hardest test to pass
  719. # [23:34] <othermaciej> (I say that despite the couple of bugs the test had originally)
  720. # [23:37] <heycam> othermaciej, thanks. though it does stand out somewhat like a sore thumb in amongst the rest of the tests (which are succinct).
  721. # [23:38] <othermaciej> heycam: it's fairly succinct, just very tricky
  722. # [23:38] <gsnedders> suggestions for better wording for <http://stuff.gsnedders.com/http-parsing.html#anchor5> are welcome
  723. # [23:38] <othermaciej> you know, my brain is so warped, that whenever I see the number 5 now I wonder "what spec is that?"
  724. # [23:38] <heycam> tricksy svg fontses...
  725. # [23:38] <othermaciej> so I was sitting there thinking, "what could Anchor5 possibly be?"
  726. # [23:39] <gsnedders> othermaciej: you know what's awesome? At school I'm in Secondary 5 :D
  727. # [23:39] <hsivonen> implementing @font-face cross-platform seems impressive Opera is indeed passing Acid3 on multiple platforms
  728. # [23:39] <gsnedders> othermaciej: next year of school will suck. Secondary 6 :(
  729. # [23:39] <hsivonen> does WebKit implement @font-face using CoreGraphics or MS APIs on Windows?
  730. # [23:40] <othermaciej> CG
  731. # [23:40] <othermaciej> although, we are also implementing a GDI text path and would like it to support all text features
  732. # [23:40] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-e0461780e4673c02)
  733. # [23:40] * hsivonen finds it weird that people actually want GDI antialiasing
  734. # [23:40] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@109.80-202-65.nextgentel.com) ("Ex-Chat")
  735. # [23:41] <othermaciej> has Opera been retested against the latest Acid test yet?
  736. # [23:41] <othermaciej> hsivonen: you're not the only one :-)
  737. # [23:41] <annevk> yes, see my remark above
  738. # [23:41] <gsnedders> GDI. Eww.
  739. # [23:41] <othermaciej> oh I see
  740. # [23:42] <othermaciej> hsivonen: to my eyes CG's text looks way better than ClearType rendering, but clearly not everyone agrees
  741. # [23:42] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I should be clear and say we want to support it in the engine, that doesn't necessarily mean it will ever be an end-user UI option
  742. # [23:42] <roc> I would have thought implementing SMIL was more work than SVG fonts
  743. # [23:42] <annevk> WebKit hasn't exactly implemented SMIL
  744. # [23:42] <othermaciej> we didn't need to add as much to our partial SMIL implementation as we did to our partial SVG font implementation
  745. # [23:43] <othermaciej> (partly because the test was less rigorous)
  746. # [23:43] <roc> don't tell me you implemented just enough to pass the test!
  747. # [23:43] * Quits: phsiao (n=shawn@nat/ibm/x-8c057d5ab0960e5f)
  748. # [23:43] <othermaciej> we turned on what we had ifdef'd out
  749. # [23:43] <hsivonen> I don't like GC's "Flat Panel" anti-aliasing, so I run in the CRT anti-aliasing mode on a flat panel
  750. # [23:43] <othermaciej> added enough to pass the test
  751. # [23:43] <othermaciej> and will probably add more
  752. # [23:43] <hsivonen> s/GC/CG/
  753. # [23:43] <gsnedders> hsivonen: I've used the flat panel AA for years, and never had any compliants
  754. # [23:44] <gsnedders> it's so subjective, though
  755. # [23:44] <roc> hmm
  756. # [23:44] <othermaciej> I don't think our svg text implementation is 100% complete either but it is still useful
  757. # [23:44] <annevk> from the official test suite WebKit passes exactly 1 test per some blog
  758. # [23:44] <annevk> SMIL test suite ^^
  759. # [23:45] <annevk> (well, SVG Animation)
  760. # [23:45] <roc> I sure hope you're going to round out to some reasonable functionality subset before you shipa release
  761. # [23:45] * Philip` imagines sub-pixel font rendering depends a lot on the physical size of a pixel and how far you are from the screen
  762. # [23:45] <othermaciej> until recently I think we may have passed close to 0 of SVG's official text tests
  763. # [23:45] <gsnedders> (does anyone have any suggestions about the wording in the above http-parsing draft?)
  764. # [23:45] <othermaciej> because every test includes at least one weird thing
  765. # [23:45] <othermaciej> now I think we arguably pass a fair number
  766. # [23:45] <gsnedders> Philip`: and also your eye-sight
  767. # [23:46] <othermaciej> we'd still fail anything that did vertical text layout and had custom per-glyph vertical advances
  768. # [23:46] <othermaciej> roc: me too - we had it off before in part because it was not yet a useful subset
  769. # [23:46] <othermaciej> (and in part because we were unsure about stability)
  770. # [23:46] <Philip`> gsnedders: Oh, I forgot about that
  771. # [23:46] <gsnedders> Philip`: which is why it is really subjective
  772. # [23:46] <roc> well I hope the drive for acid3 hasn't overridden your better judgement
  773. # [23:46] <Philip`> gsnedders: Not if you think your subjects are just objects
  774. # [23:47] <gsnedders> Philip`: I'm a person, not an object!
  775. # [23:47] <Philip`> gsnedders: A person is just a object :-p
  776. # [23:47] <gsnedders> Philip`: class Person?
  777. # [23:47] <Philip`> s//n/
  778. # [23:47] <othermaciej> roc: our normal judgment would be to allow partial features to be on by default on trunk, as long as they are being maintained and improved
  779. # [23:47] <othermaciej> (and aren't huge stability/security risks)
  780. # [23:48] <othermaciej> also when we turned it on we thought we'd have to patch it more to pass the test
  781. # [23:48] <Hixie> annevk: k thanks
  782. # [23:48] <gsnedders> Philip`: class gsnedders(Person):
  783. # [23:48] <roc> ok
  784. # [23:48] <othermaciej> we do sometimes turn things off on a branch if they seem to be a subset that will "poison the well" for the feature
  785. # [23:49] <othermaciej> (kind of like Firefox 3 turning off cross-site XHR, though I'm not sure I entirely agree with the reasoning on turning it off in that case)
  786. # [23:50] <roc> we agonized over several such decisions
  787. # [23:50] * hsivonen hopes PDF has already exposed all the security holes there are to expose with untrusted TrueType hints
  788. # [23:50] <roc> that's not clear
  789. # [23:50] <roc> the Web is a more effective attack vector than Word docs or PDF docs
  790. # [23:50] <roc> we're worried about it
  791. # [23:51] <othermaciej> Apple's security guys agreed that @font-face doesn't create new exposure that PDF didn't already (since we have native PDF support, at least on Mac)
  792. # [23:51] <Philip`> I guess Acrobat has its own TTF code and doesn't rely on other libraries?
  793. # [23:51] <Philip`> (so it would still be a security risk if a browser did rely on libraries that weren't already used for PDF)
  794. # [23:51] <roc> Freetype and GDI are definitely exposed via PDF and Word respectively
  795. # [23:52] <roc> but that may not be enough to satisfy
  796. # [23:52] <othermaciej> GDI is also exposed via IE's @font-face
  797. # [23:52] <othermaciej> (EOT only, but I assume that can include the hints)
  798. # [23:53] <Philip`> Exposure doesn't mean there aren't lots of significant flaws, so I suppose it doesn't help all that much
  799. # [23:53] <roc> othermaciej: yes, good point
  800. # [23:53] <othermaciej> what matters is whether it has been meaningfully analyzed and tested, and whether the responsible party, if a third party, is committed to fixing vulnerabilities in a timely manner
  801. # [23:55] <Philip`> What matters more is whether the programmers were any good at security or not :-)
  802. # [23:58] <roc> well that rules out GDI
  803. # [23:58] * Philip` doesn't have great faith in popular software or their programmers, after finding AWStats blatantly doing 'eval("some_function_$some_direct_user_input_string")' which allowed arbitrary code execution
  804. # [23:59] <hsivonen> FreeType has the advantage of not running font-provided hints
  805. # [23:59] <Philip`> hsivonen: Depends on how it's compiled
  806. # [23:59] <hsivonen> (under normal U.S.-compliant configurations)
  807. # Session Close: Fri Mar 28 00:00:00 2008

The end :)