/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-03-29 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Mar 29 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:10] <Hixie> i've updated http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/New_Vocabularies with some obvious ideas
  4. # [00:10] <Hixie> like embedding MathML and SVG in HTML using extensions to the parser
  5. # [00:11] <Hixie> and have marked which requirements get met by those solutions
  6. # [00:12] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-e51bf4802b84641d)
  7. # [00:18] <hsivonen> what's the deal with the XHTML2/Forms WG CSS namespace objection?
  8. # [00:18] <Hixie> hm?
  9. # [00:20] <Hixie> i wonder if i can get the "Maintainability" requirement for equations by defining enough clever parsing rules, or if that really just makes it worse
  10. # [00:22] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Mar/0417.html Why are the XHTML2 and Forms WGs suddenly interested in *removing* CSS namespace syntax?
  11. # [00:23] <hsivonen> Hixie: my guess is on makes it worse
  12. # [00:24] <Hixie> yeah i figure worse too
  13. # [00:24] <Hixie> can't see how else to make mathml maintainable, though, and latex in html just has so many other problems...
  14. # [00:25] <Hixie> hahaha
  15. # [00:25] <Hixie> they're using process issues on the css group
  16. # [00:25] <Hixie> that's funny
  17. # [00:25] <annevk2> it's annoying
  18. # [00:25] * annevk2 is now known as annevk
  19. # [00:25] <annevk> but not that bad
  20. # [00:25] <Hixie> it's easy to ignore :-)
  21. # [00:25] <hsivonen> but why are the XHTML2 and Forms WGs suddenly so interested in backwards compat axioms?
  22. # [00:26] <hsivonen> in a CSS feature that was added for the kinds of languages those WGs are specifying
  23. # [00:26] <Hixie> because they got the wrong lesson from html5
  24. # [00:27] <Hixie> same way that the css group thinks that being transparent is the lesson one should learn from html5
  25. # [00:27] <hsivonen> Hixie: surely being transparent is *one* of the lessons?
  26. # [00:28] <Hixie> being transparent is a side-effect of soliciting feedback from all sources and attempting to address everyone's feedback
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  30. # [00:46] <jgraham> Hixie: Re: maths I think this is one case where "the tools will save us" might be the most convincing argument (since *TeX in HTML doesn't make sense and MathML is so impossible to hand author)
  31. # [00:46] <jgraham> But it would be interesting to know what the MathWG think
  32. # [00:46] <hsivonen> Markdown+iTeX2MML
  33. # [00:47] <Hixie> the math wg sent their input to the whatwg list
  34. # [00:47] <Hixie> er
  35. # [00:47] <Hixie> the public-html list
  36. # [00:47] <jgraham> I have vague memories that they had plans for a human-editable MathML syntax
  37. # [00:47] <jgraham> Hixie: In more detail than that post
  38. # [00:48] <jgraham> (which I thought was very positive as they are willing to have text/html compatible parsing rules for MathML without a fight)
  39. # [00:48] <Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Mar/0255.html
  40. # [00:48] <Hixie> (for those who care)
  41. # [00:48] <Hixie> jgraham: yeah
  42. # [00:48] <Hixie> jgraham: dunno
  43. # [00:48] <nickshanks> does webkit support calc() in CSS?
  44. # [00:49] <nickshanks> oops, wrong tab
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  46. # [00:56] <hsivonen> bed time. nn
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  48. # [00:57] <jgraham> goodnight
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  52. # [01:11] <Lachy> hey Hixie
  53. # [01:11] <Lachy> did you see my previous message about acid3?
  54. # [01:11] <Lachy> from about 12 hours ago
  55. # [01:16] <Hixie> acid3.acidtests.org/acid3-2008-03-28.tar.gz
  56. # [01:16] <Hixie> iirc
  57. # [01:17] <Lachy> thanks
  58. # [01:21] <Lachy> hmm. strange. When I run that locally, tests 4 and 5 fail in webkit
  59. # [01:23] * dglazkov watches Hixie carefully so that he doesn't become evil
  60. # [01:23] <Hixie> hehe
  61. # [01:23] <dglazkov> that was a little bit evil
  62. # [01:23] <Hixie> :-/
  63. # [01:24] <dglazkov> :)
  64. # [01:24] <annevk> there was some amount of laughter here when glazou read "this won't really change anything;"
  65. # [01:24] <dglazkov> hey, annevk, do you need webforms2.org?
  66. # [01:25] <annevk> oh, right, did you e-mail about that?
  67. # [01:25] <annevk> i wasn't really sure what to do with it
  68. # [01:25] <annevk> apart from paying 10 bucks a year
  69. # [01:25] <dglazkov> me neither :)
  70. # [01:26] <annevk> also, at some point it'll just be HTML5 Forms
  71. # [01:26] <annevk> or HTML forms
  72. # [01:27] <dglazkov> well, the whole HTML5 thing does kind of fade the newness and edginess of webforms2
  73. # [01:27] <dglazkov> perhaps there should be a monument at webforms2.org -- here began the quest to better Web.
  74. # [01:27] <annevk> hehe
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  76. # [01:27] <annevk> i suppose i'm willing to pay for that :)
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  78. # [01:28] <annevk> if you e-mail me the transfer code i can do the rest, i have to go now though
  79. # [01:28] <Lachy> dglazkov, stick some ads on it. That's what the spammers will do the instant you let the domain expire, so you may as well profit before they do :-)
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  85. # [01:40] <othermaciej> Lachy: we have a gently tweaked local copy in our LayoutTests that passes
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  96. # [02:47] <Hixie> aw man i can't wait for GTAIV to come out
  97. # [02:47] <Hixie> one month!
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  100. # [03:22] <Hixie> woot!
  101. # [03:22] <Hixie> i used an <hr> on my last blog post
  102. # [03:22] <Hixie> and it doesn't look like crap!
  103. # [03:24] <csarven> Hixie Haven't seen a proper use of <hr> in a *long* time.
  104. # [03:24] <Hixie> yeah
  105. # [03:24] <Hixie> i think "semantic-thinking" people avoid it
  106. # [03:25] <Hixie> thinking it's "presentational"
  107. # [03:25] <Hixie> i did
  108. # [03:25] <Hixie> until changing html5 to make it clearly semantic
  109. # [03:25] <Hixie> :-)
  110. # [03:26] <csarven> Gar. Gotta run.
  111. # [03:26] <csarven> How did you get the asterisks going?
  112. # [03:27] <csarven> BBL. I'll check the channel logs.
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  128. # [05:27] <Hixie> csarven: generated content
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  143. # [06:35] <Hixie> so... any opinions on http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/New_Vocabularies ?
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  150. # [07:22] <Hixie> anyone have a list of html elements?
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  152. # [07:34] * Hixie investigates mathml further
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  161. # [09:00] <virtuelv> Hm, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid_3 is out of date
  162. # [09:02] <othermaciej_> looks like someone edited out "This likely reduced Opera's score to 99/100" too
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  166. # [09:28] <virtuelv> othermaciej: I was specifically refering to "By a changed of the Testsuit Opera will only achieve 99/100 now."
  167. # [09:30] <othermaciej> afaik (though I never saw the original internal build in action) the test suite change did lower the score, but it was fixed again before the release
  168. # [09:30] <othermaciej> (i.e. fixed again in GOGI)
  169. # [09:30] <othermaciej> nothing in the page claims 99/100 any more afaict
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  172. # [09:39] <hsivonen> Hixie: the current extension point of MathML, annotation-xml, has the nice property that it could create a parsing scope without having to hard-code particular HTML elements as DOM namespace changing
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  177. # [10:30] <hsivonen> hmm. I subscribed to public-pfwg-comments but I'm not getting email from the list.
  178. # [10:30] <hsivonen> instead I'm getting an autoreply each time I send something there
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  180. # [10:39] <Lachy> hsivonen, mail sysreq@w3.org and ask them to fix it
  181. # [10:39] <hsivonen> Lachy: I'll do that. thanks
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  191. # [11:38] <hsivonen> http://blogs.sun.com/bblfish/entry/rdfauth_sketch_of_a_buzzword
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  196. # [12:11] <jgraham__> hsivonen: I had the same experience with pfwg-comments
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  230. # [16:12] <BenMillard> PFWG is not sending me mail but I didn't get any autoreply for the message I sent them, either
  231. # [16:12] <BenMillard> here's what I did to subscribe: http://projectcerbera.com/blog/2008/03#day28
  232. # [17:11] <gsnedders> Philip`: do you have HTTP header data for anything apart from the 15k dmoz dataset?
  233. # [17:12] * Parts: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  234. # [17:13] <Philip`> gsnedders: I have it for a ~130K dmoz dataset too
  235. # [17:14] <gsnedders> Philip`: Could I possibly get that in the same XML grep format as before?
  236. # [17:15] <gsnedders> i.e., <header name="Date" uri="http://www.grebe-gt.de/" value="Wed, 12 Dec 2007 00:19:58 GMT"/> within root xml_grep element
  237. # [17:16] <Philip`> gsnedders: I don't trivially have it in that format, but I have something very similar - should that be good enough?
  238. # [17:16] <gsnedders> Philip`: what sort of format?
  239. # [17:16] <Philip`> (The <header> bits are the same, but the root is <survey> and it has <processed> and <redirect> and <error> stuff)
  240. # [17:16] <gsnedders> send it over, then I'll bitch if I don't like it :)
  241. # [17:16] <Philip`> It's only a hundred megabytes of XML...
  242. # [17:17] <gsnedders> I was expecting that.
  243. # [17:17] <gsnedders> I'll work with it somehow :)
  244. # [17:17] * Philip` wonders how best to compress it
  245. # [17:17] <Philip`> I want to minimise time taken to transfer across internet + time to compress + time to decide how to compress
  246. # [17:18] <Philip`> Oh, bzip2 was quite fast
  247. # [17:18] <Philip`> http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~pjt47/misc/output-headers.xml.bz2 (10MB)
  248. # [17:19] <Philip`> Oh
  249. # [17:19] <Philip`> Is something sending the wrong content-type for that?
  250. # [17:19] <gsnedders> yeah
  251. # [17:19] <gsnedders> it doesn't batter forme tho
  252. # [17:19] <gsnedders> *matter
  253. # [17:19] <gsnedders> *for me
  254. # [17:19] <gsnedders> *though
  255. # [17:19] <gsnedders> oh dear.
  256. # [17:20] <Philip`> Sadly the "BZh91AY&" at the front causes XML well-formedness errors
  257. # [17:20] <Philip`> ?
  258. # [17:21] <Philip`> Oh
  259. # [17:21] * Philip` should try comprehending all of gsnedders' lines before failing to understand the last one
  260. # [17:21] <Philip`> Let me know once you've downloaded it, and I'll delete it again to free some disk space
  261. # [17:22] <gsnedders> Philip`: the oh dear was in reference to the number of mistakes
  262. # [17:22] <Philip`> I worked that out eventually :-)
  263. # [17:22] * Joins: webben (n=benh@91.84.250.225)
  264. # [17:23] * gsnedders checks it is well-formed
  265. # [17:23] <gsnedders> Philip`: sure, delete it
  266. # [17:24] <Philip`> (I can move it back if anyone else wants a copy)
  267. # [17:24] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
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  269. # [17:24] <gsnedders> (I'll make it public shortly anyway)
  270. # [17:27] <gsnedders> Philip`: how much of <http://hg.gsnedders.com/http-parsing/file/2f867e70fcfc/Philip%20Taylor%27s%20Header%20Data/README.txt> is true for the new data?
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  274. # [17:41] <Philip`> gsnedders: It's not ~15k any more
  275. # [17:42] <gsnedders> Philip`: OK, of the less than totally obvious ones :)
  276. # [17:42] <gsnedders> Philip`: second paragraph? parsed by HttpClient?
  277. # [17:43] <Philip`> gsnedders: The <error>s are given for non-200 responses, but I don't know if that matters
  278. # [17:43] <gsnedders> I'm writing a DTD for the format, FWIW, mainly to check what I think the format is is correct :)
  279. # [17:44] <Philip`> It's still HttpClient, though this time I changed the headers from the defaults to include
  280. # [17:44] <Philip`> Accept: text/html,application/xhtml+xml,application/xml;q=0.9,*/*;q=0.8
  281. # [17:44] <Philip`> Accept-Charset: ISO-8859-1,utf-8;q=0.7,*;q=0.7
  282. # [17:44] <Philip`> Accept-Encoding: gzip,deflate
  283. # [17:44] <Philip`> Accept-Language: en-us,en;q=0.5
  284. # [17:44] <gsnedders> from what before?
  285. # [17:45] <Philip`> From whatever HttpClient's default were
  286. # [17:45] <Philip`> (which I think didn't include any of those headers)
  287. # [17:45] <Philip`> (These are copied from some roughly-FF3b4 nightly)
  288. # [18:01] <gsnedders> Philip`: what's wrong with <!ELEMENT survey ((processed, redirect?, header+) | error)*>?
  289. # [18:03] <Philip`> gsnedders: Several things
  290. # [18:03] <gsnedders> :D
  291. # [18:04] * gsnedders assures everyone here he really has got the format wrong
  292. # [18:04] <Philip`> 'error' gets output if there's a Java exception at some point during the processing, so it's quite possible that there'd be an <error> after it's started writing some of the other bits
  293. # [18:04] <Philip`> ((Also it gets output on non-200 responses etc - it's not just exceptions))
  294. # [18:05] <Philip`> For each URI the elements are in about that order, but the output for each URI can be arbitrarily interleaved with the output from others
  295. # [18:06] <Philip`> so if you're ignoring attribute values, the element ordering is basically completely unstructure
  296. # [18:06] <Philip`> d
  297. # [18:08] <gsnedders> Philip`: if it is interleaved, how does processed mean anything?
  298. # [18:10] <Philip`> gsnedders: It doesn't really mean much - just that the page was downloaded 'successfully'
  299. # [18:10] <Philip`> Mostly it's useful so I can count how many pages there are
  300. # [18:10] <Philip`> (just using grep and wc)
  301. # [18:10] * Philip` goes away for a while
  302. # [18:14] <gsnedders> nano seems to be the only text editor that is anything near performent on a file of that size
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  305. # [18:45] * Philip` uses 'less'
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  317. # [20:40] <Hixie> man, the number of people who keep suggesting that we could add a mode in the parser for things like <annotation-xml> suggests that I'm going to have to give detailed explanations of the problems of doing that
  318. # [20:46] <jgraham__> Hixie: Did you really say that "you do not intend to allow SVG in text/html"?
  319. # [20:46] * jgraham__ doesn't remember that
  320. # [20:47] <Hixie> i believe at one point while fixing the acid3 test i got so annoyed at the vagueness of the svg spec and the bad design of the svg language that i may have said something along the lines of "right, screw svg, i'm not putting it in html"
  321. # [20:47] <Hixie> i really wish there was a better option though
  322. # [20:47] <jgraham__> Ah, OK
  323. # [20:48] <Hixie> svg is just such a crappy language
  324. # [20:48] <jgraham__> I suggest you never look at the aria spec :)
  325. # [20:49] <jgraham__> I don't really know about whether SVG is crappy or not but it seems to me that, given the extant implementations, it's the sensible choice for vector graphics in text/html
  326. # [20:49] <Hixie> the svg spec has the quadruple disadvantages of being huge, being badly designed, being designed in a way to fit a mythical w3c architecture (e.g. it uses xlinks for no good reason), and being ridiculously badly underspecified and overspecified at the same time.
  327. # [20:49] <Hixie> it certainly is one of the more obvious choices
  328. # [20:50] <Hixie> more obvious than mathml, even
  329. # [20:50] <jgraham__> Oddly, I actually think it's the non-browser implementations of mathML that make it compelling
  330. # [20:51] <Hixie> here are formats with more non-browser implementations
  331. # [20:51] <Hixie> like, say, windows metafile
  332. # [20:52] <jgraham__> That's a vector language though
  333. # [20:52] <Hixie> oh sorry
  334. # [20:52] <jgraham__> SVG is implemented in browsers
  335. # [20:52] <Hixie> wrong one
  336. # [20:52] <Hixie> let me try again
  337. # [20:52] <jgraham__> MathML is implemented in editors
  338. # [20:52] <Hixie> "there are formats with more non-browser implementations"
  339. # [20:52] <Hixie> "like, say, pdf"
  340. # [20:52] <Hixie> or latex
  341. # [20:52] <Hixie> or whatever
  342. # [20:53] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@T71ad.t.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  343. # [20:53] <Hixie> svg is implemented in some editors too
  344. # [20:53] <Hixie> i'm amused though that some people are so insecure in the inherent superiority of their technologies that they feel the need to do last minute canvasing
  345. # [20:53] <jgraham__> Well the advantage of MathML over PDF is that it roundtrips better and the advantage over LaTeX is that it is DOM compatible
  346. # [20:54] <jgraham__> (also with LaTeX you need to define a subset that you expect to work since it is extensible)
  347. # [20:54] <Hixie> there are pros and cons in both directions, yes
  348. # [20:55] * Quits: sayrer (n=chatzill@user-1087kf0.cable.mindspring.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  349. # [20:55] <Hixie> as editor it's my role to consider them all
  350. # [20:55] <Hixie> :-)
  351. # [20:55] <jgraham__> Sure
  352. # [20:56] <Philip`> Is StarMath defined anywhere?
  353. # [20:56] <Philip`> (I assume that avoids the legacy LaTeX issues (like being based on an entire programming language))
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  358. # [21:35] <Hixie> well openoffice's mathml support is worthless
  359. # [21:35] <Hixie> it can't import mathml
  360. # [21:35] <Hixie> anyone have microsoft word?
  361. # [21:40] <Philip`> It can at least import MathML from inside ODF files
  362. # [21:40] <mitsuhiko> Hixie: the funniest thing about svg is that there still is no cross implementation way to express multiple whitespace beside nonbreaking spaces
  363. # [21:41] <Hixie> Philip`: no, it can't. it can ignore mathml, and import the staroffice format that's next to the mathml.
  364. # [21:41] <mitsuhiko> 1995 is calling and wants it's conventions back
  365. # [21:41] <Hixie> mitsuhiko: they don't support white-space?
  366. # [21:41] <Philip`> Hixie: If you delete the StarMath it can import the MathML
  367. # [21:42] <mitsuhiko> Hixie: inkscape uses xml:space="preserve", rsvg uses css with white-space: forgotthevalue
  368. # [21:42] <mitsuhiko> inkscape doesn't support css, firefox reads neither
  369. # [21:43] <mitsuhiko> can't remember which implementation broke with what, but we ended up using nonbreaking spaces
  370. # [21:44] <Hixie> Philip`: i just tried and that didn't seem to work
  371. # [21:44] <mitsuhiko> Hixie: you should have tested that in acid3 :D
  372. # [21:44] <Hixie> mitsuhiko: you should have suggested it when i asked for tests :-)
  373. # [21:44] <Philip`> Hixie: I tried it a while ago and it did work :-p
  374. # [21:45] <Hixie> oh
  375. # [21:45] <Hixie> i guess i should try again
  376. # [21:45] <mitsuhiko> touche
  377. # [21:45] <Philip`> (and it reconstructed the StarMath based on the MathML)
  378. # [21:45] <mitsuhiko> whatwg gave me back hope in standards. your's don't suck ;D
  379. # [21:46] <Philip`> Oddly, OO.o's Open dialog lists "MathML 1.01 (*.mml)", but I can't get it to do anything than read the text content out of the XML file and ignore the markup entirely
  380. # [21:47] <Philip`> Also I can't get "Import Formula" to do anything at all
  381. # [21:48] <Philip`> Ah
  382. # [21:48] <Philip`> Needs <?xml...
  383. # [21:48] <Philip`> Now it imports MathML, and renders it and gives a human-editable StarMath version
  384. # [21:50] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  385. # [21:51] <Philip`> (It's very helpfully and completely silent when it fails to load an ill-formed XML file, too)
  386. # [21:52] <Hixie> i couldn't get import formula to do anything with mathml that didn't have starmath in it
  387. # [21:52] <Hixie> but you're right
  388. # [21:52] <Hixie> modifying the odf worked
  389. # [21:52] <jgraham> Openoffice UI is generally pretty wful
  390. # [21:52] <mitsuhiko> muhaha. that's great xD
  391. # [21:53] <Philip`> So I think OO.o isn't exactly going to become my number one choice for equation editing
  392. # [21:54] <Hixie> no
  393. # [21:54] <Hixie> me either
  394. # [22:05] <Philip`> Hixie: I have access to Word 2007 over rdesktop, in case that might help
  395. # [22:05] <Hixie> yeah
  396. # [22:05] <Hixie> any information about what it's mathml support is like
  397. # [22:05] <Hixie> especially import
  398. # [22:05] <Hixie> would be great
  399. # [22:07] <Philip`> Any hints on where the import button is?
  400. # [22:07] * Joins: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober)
  401. # [22:08] <Hixie> no idea
  402. # [22:10] <Hixie> hey Philip`, you're good with turning things into graphs and stuff
  403. # [22:10] * Quits: starjive (i=beos@81-233-18-73-no30.tbcn.telia.com)
  404. # [22:11] <Hixie> any chance you have a tool already set up that can turn the disaster that is the mathml dtd into a pretty picture showing the allowed nesting?
  405. # [22:16] <Philip`> Hixie: Word 2007's equation editor has 'Equation Options' -> 'Copy (MathML|Linear Format) to the clipboard as plain text', and when selecting the MathML option (the default is Linear Format) it does indeed copy equations into MathML on the clipboard
  406. # [22:17] <Hixie> cool
  407. # [22:17] <Hixie> i assume it can't import then?
  408. # [22:17] <Philip`> Haven't got that far yet :-p
  409. # [22:18] <Hixie> :-)
  410. # [22:18] <Philip`> If I copy MathML as plain text on the clipboard, then ctrl+V inside the equation editor, it gets converted into proper equations
  411. # [22:18] * Hixie doesn't understand william's last e-mail to www-math
  412. # [22:18] <Hixie> nice
  413. # [22:18] <Hixie> very nice
  414. # [22:18] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-98-207-134-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  415. # [22:19] <Philip`> and even if I'm not in any kind of equation mode, then paste MathML, it gets converted into proper equations
  416. # [22:20] <Hixie> sweet
  417. # [22:20] <Philip`> (The kind of thing it puts onto the clipboard is <mml:math xmlns:mml="http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML" xmlns:m="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/math"><mml:mi>A</mml:mi><mml:mo>=</mml:mo><mml:mi>π</mml:mi><mml:msup><mml:mrow><mml:mi>r</mml:mi></mml:mrow><mml:mrow><mml:mn>2</mml:mn></mml:mrow></mml:msup></mml:math>)
  418. # [22:21] <Hixie> yeah, oo.o outputs prefixed stuff too
  419. # [22:21] <Hixie> still, that's a step in the right direction
  420. # [22:22] <Philip`> (It accepts anything that's well-formed XML with a <math> root in the right namespace)
  421. # [22:23] <Philip`> (so far as I can tell)
  422. # [22:23] <Philip`> (and not anything else)
  423. # [22:23] <hsivonen> Hixie: did you try zapping the StarMath stuff and the cache objects and then reopening the ODF? IIRC someone said it imports MathML in that case.
  424. # [22:23] <hsivonen> oh. already covered in log
  425. # [22:23] <Hixie> hehe
  426. # [22:25] <Philip`> I can't see any way to import or export equations as files directly
  427. # [22:25] <Hixie> i really don't understand http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-math/2008Mar/0011.html
  428. # [22:25] <Hixie> oh well
  429. # [22:25] <Hixie> Philip`: copy/paste is probably more than enough
  430. # [22:26] <Hixie> someone's gonna have to write a prefixed-xml to html convertor if we do this, though
  431. # [22:26] * hsivonen might eventually do it as a side effect of doing something else...
  432. # [22:28] <hsivonen> Hixie: if you spec text/html serialization algorithm for MathML in text/html and SVG in text/html (in a reasonable way :-), I think I'm going to implement that as part of my SAX to HTML5 serializer
  433. # [22:29] <hsivonen> (well, I might implement it even without a spec. :-)
  434. # [22:30] <hsivonen> (reasonable way being streamable)
  435. # [22:30] <Hixie> it'll be streamable
  436. # [22:30] <hsivonen> cool
  437. # [22:30] <Hixie> the one thing i don't think we can do is switch to another insertion mode
  438. # [22:31] <Hixie> e.g. if we do:
  439. # [22:31] <Hixie> <svg><table></svg> -> <svg:svg><svg:table/></svg:svg>
  440. # [22:31] <Hixie> instead of:
  441. # [22:32] <Hixie> <svg><table></svg> -> <svg:svg></svg:svg><html:table/>
  442. # [22:32] <Hixie> or:
  443. # [22:32] <Hixie> <svg><table></svg> -> <svg:svg><html:table/></svg:svg>
  444. # [22:32] <hsivonen> Hixie: so are you really going to hard-code the names of MathML and SVG elements?
  445. # [22:32] <Hixie> ...i think we'll end up with problems where existing pages trigger into this insertion mode and break old pages
  446. # [22:33] <Hixie> hsivonen: either that, or hard code the html elements, or some combination thereof
  447. # [22:33] <Hixie> we might be able to get away with making unknown elements use whatever the parent element's namespace is
  448. # [22:33] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  449. # [22:34] <hsivonen> in the case of mathml, you could set aside unknown elements starting with 'm' as MathML
  450. # [22:34] <Hixie> that sounds dangerous
  451. # [22:34] <Hixie> what if we want to introduce a <mix> element or something
  452. # [22:34] <Hixie> or <media> or whatever
  453. # [22:34] <Hixie> now in older UAs it's in a different namespace
  454. # [22:35] <hsivonen> namespaces suck
  455. # [22:35] <hsivonen> but yeah
  456. # [22:36] <Hixie> thanks for the link to the relaxng schema, btw
  457. # [22:36] <hsivonen> np
  458. # [22:37] <Hixie> i think i'm gonna just go through the dtd and do it by hand though, the relaxng schema was as confusing to me :-)
  459. # [22:38] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-98-207-134-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("The computer fell asleep")
  460. # [22:38] <hsivonen> there might be a RELAX NG visualizer in the latest oXygen. I'm not sure
  461. # [22:38] * hsivonen finds RELAX NG Compact Syntax nicer than DTD
  462. # [22:39] <Hixie> the dtd syntax is horrible
  463. # [22:39] <Hixie> but it's the one in the spec :-)
  464. # [22:40] <hsivonen> fantasai's way of organizing RNC is much better than the way used in the MathML schema, though
  465. # [22:41] <hsivonen> that is, the MathML schema isn't as readable an the HTML5 schema
  466. # [22:42] <hsivonen> Hixie: fwiw, I think using annotation/annotation-xml for alternative serialization is bad
  467. # [22:42] <hsivonen> hijacking it for SVG seems workable, though
  468. # [22:42] <Hixie> i don't see the use case for having it at all
  469. # [22:42] <Hixie> we only want one presentation
  470. # [22:43] <Philip`> Hixie: I don't happen to have anything for parsing DTDs or converting them into anything interesting
  471. # [22:43] <Hixie> k
  472. # [22:43] <Philip`> (except for some ugly regexps that parse the HTML4 DTD, which seems like it wouldn't work in the MathML case)
  473. # [22:43] <hsivonen> Hixie: first example at http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/blog/archives/001475.html
  474. # [22:43] * Joins: sayrer (n=chatzill@user-1087kf0.cable.mindspring.com)
  475. # [22:43] <hsivonen> Hixie: that's a Gecko-compatible DOM at least
  476. # [22:44] <hsivonen> Hixie: that one has only one representation
  477. # [22:44] <Hixie> hsivonen: why wouldn't we just have <math> <mtext> <svg>...</svg> </mtext> <mo> ... </mo> ... ?
  478. # [22:44] <hsivonen> Hixie: i.e. hijacked as an SVG escape hatch
  479. # [22:44] <hsivonen> Hixie: does that render in Gecko?
  480. # [22:44] <Hixie> none of this works in gecko, you can't put svg in text/html yet
  481. # [22:45] <hsivonen> Hixie: I want DOM consistency with XHTML+MathML+SVG
  482. # [22:45] <Hixie> sure
  483. # [22:45] <Hixie> i don't think requiring the UA to only do parsing changes is a requirement
  484. # [22:45] <hsivonen> Hixie: but yeah, the <semantics><annotation-xml> wrapper is silly, but that's a way that doesn't step on the toes of the MathML spec
  485. # [22:46] <Hixie> i'd rather just get teh spec changed
  486. # [22:47] <Hixie> <semantics> is more than just the escape hatch you see in that example
  487. # [22:47] <Hixie> it's also a way of including alternate formats, etc
  488. # [22:47] * hsivonen tests
  489. # [22:47] <Hixie> and i don't think the semantics even really make sense there
  490. # [22:47] <hsivonen> the alternative format part seems harmful
  491. # [22:47] <hsivonen> witness OpenOffice.org
  492. # [22:47] <Hixie> yep
  493. # [22:48] * Joins: itpastorn (n=itpastor@139.57.227.87.static.th.siw.siwnet.net)
  494. # [22:48] <Hixie> anyone got something that does entity expansions in dtds?
  495. # [22:49] <Hixie> this dtd is insane
  496. # [22:50] <hsivonen> RNC looking better already? :-)
  497. # [22:51] <Hixie> yes
  498. # [22:51] <Hixie> i am in fact, as we speak, copying your subversion command line
  499. # [22:51] <Hixie> :-)
  500. # [22:51] <Hixie> (i had just looked at the site before)
  501. # [22:52] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  502. # [22:53] <hsivonen> Hixie: ok, <svg> in MathML works in Gecko without the <semantics><annotation-xml> cruft, so I agree with changing the spec
  503. # [22:53] <Hixie> heh
  504. # [22:53] * Joins: csarven- (n=csarven@bas16-montreal02-1279374851.dsl.bell.ca)
  505. # [22:53] <Hixie> ok so walk me through this schema
  506. # [22:54] <Hixie> what does this mean:
  507. # [22:54] <Hixie> mml.notprsubset.qname = element notprsubset { empty, mml.operators.common.attrib }
  508. # [22:54] * Quits: csarven (n=csarven@bas16-montreal02-1279375271.dsl.bell.ca) (Nick collision from services.)
  509. # [22:54] * csarven- is now known as csarven
  510. # [22:54] <hsivonen> it declares a named production mml.notprsubset.qname
  511. # [22:54] <hsivonen> the convention is mml.elementname.qname in this particular schema
  512. # [22:55] <hsivonen> the production is an element named notprsubset
  513. # [22:55] <hsivonen> which has a content model of empty followed by the named production mml.operators.common.attrib
  514. # [22:55] <hsivonen> attributes are part of the content model in RELAX NG
  515. # [22:55] <hsivonen> so here the actual element-wise content model is empty
  516. # [22:56] <hsivonen> and the attributes are whatever mml.operators.common.attrib expands to
  517. # [22:56] <Hixie> aha
  518. # [22:56] <Hixie> ok
  519. # [22:56] <hsivonen> so element and empty are reserved words of RNC itself
  520. # [22:56] <Hixie> i need to strip all this attribute stuff
  521. # [22:57] <hsivonen> that *might* be easier to do with the XML syntax
  522. # [22:57] <Hixie> heh
  523. # [22:57] <hsivonen> but the XML syntax is seriously not human-readable
  524. # [22:57] <Hixie> this is not turning into a successful saturday :-P
  525. # [22:58] <Hixie> i couldn't even find the allowable content models in the spec other than in the dtd
  526. # [22:58] <Hixie> you'd think a spec would define that kind of stuff
  527. # [22:58] <hsivonen> no comment
  528. # [23:00] <hsivonen> Hixie: http://relaxng.org/compact-tutorial-20030326.html is pretty good and relatively short
  529. # [23:01] <Hixie> yeah i think i have the syntax figured out
  530. # [23:01] <Hixie> it's just a pain to process
  531. # [23:01] <hsivonen> You can convert between RNG and RNC with Trang
  532. # [23:01] <hsivonen> RNG can be processed with XML tools
  533. # [23:01] <hsivonen> yay for XML tools!
  534. # [23:02] <Hixie> uh huh
  535. # [23:02] <Hixie> i wish rnc had less ambiguous statment ends
  536. # [23:02] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  537. # [23:06] * Quits: jruderman_ (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  538. # [23:06] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  539. # [23:06] * jgraham wonders what Dave Orchard is doing CCing public-html on that sort of mail
  540. # [23:10] * Joins: parcelbrat (n=parcelbr@70-1-21-201.area1.spcsdns.net)
  541. # [23:10] <hsivonen> I thought WAF's use cases and reqs were just not written down
  542. # [23:11] * Quits: parcelbrat (n=parcelbr@70-1-21-201.area1.spcsdns.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  545. # [23:26] <Hixie> wow, the mathml people are as insecure in the inherit superiority of their spec as the svg people
  546. # [23:27] <hsivonen> Hixie: how so?
  547. # [23:27] <hsivonen> Hixie: saying that existing implementations matter is not insecurity
  548. # [23:27] <shepazu> I can't speak for the mathml people, but your stated bias against SVG is what I have a problem with, not with the technical aspects of SVG versus other formats
  549. # [23:28] <Hixie> hsivonen: being scared that mathml isn't the "main" option
  550. # [23:28] <sayrer> it is true that the W3C process can create a sense of entitlement
  551. # [23:28] <Hixie> shepazu: my bias against svg is due to the deficiencies of the format, as are my biases against vml, wmf, etc
  552. # [23:28] <Hixie> shepazu: one has to consider all the pros and cons of all the options
  553. # [23:29] <shepazu> I haven't heard you say "I hate VML" and "wmf will never make it into HTML"
  554. # [23:29] <Hixie> shepazu: yes dear.
  555. # [23:30] <Hixie> (seriously, i'm not going to let personal biases affect how i evaluate the options, relax already.)
  556. # [23:30] <shepazu> ah, excellent point
  557. # [23:30] <hsivonen> Hixie: I can understand that in theory all options should be considered, but in this case, exploring them all and then settling for MathML and SVG seems like a distraction
  558. # [23:31] <jgraham> shepazu: it strictly irrelevant what Ian's biases are or whether they subconsciously affect him, as long as he comes to the right decision in the end
  559. # [23:31] <Hixie> hsivonen: i'm not making decisions of this magnitude without careful consideration of all the options, that would just be dumb
  560. # [23:31] <jgraham> The problem is determining the right decision ;)
  561. # [23:31] <Hixie> clearly the math people don't understand the concept of implying tags
  562. # [23:31] * Hixie replies to them reexplaining what he meant
  563. # [23:31] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  564. # [23:32] <jgraham> Hixie: To be fair the point that implied start tags are confusing is reasonable
  565. # [23:32] <Hixie> yes
  566. # [23:32] <Hixie> but so is the point that mathml is so obscenely verbose as to be ridiculous
  567. # [23:33] <jgraham> Oh, I agree with that too
  568. # [23:33] <hsivonen> Hixie: David Carlisle does have a very good point that implied elements are no good if authors don't see the tree they are styling
  569. # [23:33] * jgraham has hand authored MathML in the past, but only once
  570. # [23:33] <Hixie> hsivonen: i dunno, seems to work ok with <tbody>
  571. # [23:33] <hsivonen> umm. No
  572. # [23:33] <hsivonen> do you recall the thread about that with Rob Burns?
  573. # [23:34] <Hixie> i don't think one can draw any conclusions from threads with rob burns
  574. # [23:34] <jgraham> (the reason I've only done it once is obviously because it was so hard)
  575. # [23:34] <Hixie> at least, not any conclusions that apply to humanity at large
  576. # [23:36] <shepazu> jgraham: I don't see how you can derive your conclusion from what you said... how can a stated bias not be relevant?
  577. # [23:37] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  578. # [23:39] * Joins: itpastor1 (n=itpastor@139.57.227.87.static.th.siw.siwnet.net)
  579. # [23:40] <jgraham> shepazu: Reread what I said ( it is true but a little (though not entirely) facetious)
  580. # [23:40] <shepazu> ok
  581. # [23:52] * Quits: itpastorn (n=itpastor@139.57.227.87.static.th.siw.siwnet.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  582. # [23:59] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202-183-124-126.cust.voipex.com.au)
  583. # Session Close: Sun Mar 30 00:00:00 2008

The end :)