/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-03-30 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Mar 30 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  8. # [00:32] <jgraham> hsivonen: I guess annotations in mathml have a valid use case if they encode a superset of the information in the mathml e.g. if mathematica uses the annotation to encode information it needs to convert the formula into something it can manipulate
  9. # [00:32] <jgraham> (I don't know if this is actually the case or not)
  10. # [00:33] <jgraham> I agree that you could have problems keeping the content in sync though
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  12. # [00:37] <Hixie> vendor-specific extensions to the language are not a use case i have any intention of addressing
  13. # [00:37] <Hixie> especially with explicit markup
  14. # [00:42] <jgraham> Hixie: Yeah, the fact that these things are (presumably) proprietary is bad. But given the reality of the computer algebra landscape it's not surprising the mathml people decided to address that use case
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  18. # [00:55] <jgraham> Hixie: "If a MathML-input-conformant application receives input containing one or more elements with an illegal number or type of attributes or child schemata, it should nonetheless attempt to render all the input in an intelligible way, i.e. to render normally those parts of the input that were valid, and to render error messages (rendered as if enclosed in an merror element) in place of invalid expressions."
  19. # [00:56] <Hixie> is the "i.e." meant to be "e.g."? If not, what's with the "attempt" part?
  20. # [00:57] <jgraham> Hixie: Dunno.
  21. # [00:57] <Hixie> mozilla doesn't implement that
  22. # [00:57] <Hixie> e.g. data:text/xml,<math xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML">3</math>
  23. # [00:57] <jgraham> I guess it's informative although it's generally hard to tell with the mathml spec
  24. # [00:58] <Hixie> data:text/xml,<math xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML"><mfrac>3 2</mfrac></math> works
  25. # [00:58] <Hixie> as in, shows an error
  26. # [00:58] <Hixie> data:text/xml,<math xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML"><mrow>2</mrow></math> doesn't
  27. # [00:59] <Hixie> nor does data:text/xml,<math xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML"><mo><mo>+</mo></mo></math>
  28. # [00:59] <jgraham> Section 7.2.1 seems to imply that anything to do with rendering is informative
  29. # [00:59] <Hixie> lovely
  30. # [01:00] <jgraham> Although roc had an example of something that is probably normative
  31. # [01:00] <Hixie> oh?
  32. # [01:00] <jgraham> the way that glyph size changes with script level
  33. # [01:00] <Hixie> ah yes
  34. # [01:00] <jgraham> and the CSS interactions
  35. # [01:01] <Hixie> you know, one could make a career out of rewriting these specs properly
  36. # [01:01] <jgraham> :)
  37. # [01:01] <othermaciej> Hixie: "could"?
  38. # [01:02] * jgraham wonders if he should suggest that MathML 3 use RFC 2119 keywords so it's at least possible to tell what was supposed to be a conformance criterion
  39. # [01:02] <Hixie> othermaciej: i've only done one so far
  40. # [01:02] <othermaciej> jgraham: you should
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  43. # [01:20] <Hixie> hsivonen: would it make sense to have a schema for the mathml part of mathml+html5, as opposed to just saying it has to match the mathml spec?
  44. # [01:20] <Hixie> or would it be better to just let the syntax make certain things impossible, but not disallow them
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  48. # [01:29] <jgraham> othermaciej: Sent.
  49. # [01:31] * jgraham wonders how many other specs he can complain about the lack RFC 2119 terminology in
  50. # [01:31] <jgraham> (I did aria earlier in the week)
  51. # [01:32] <Hixie> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Equations_in_HTML really makes a strong case for making <mo>/<mi>/<mn> be inferred by the parser
  52. # [01:34] <jgraham> I wonder what fraction of the time people miss out &InvisibleTimes; when hand authoring
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  57. # [01:45] <jgraham> Hixie: How would the <msup> stuff work? What would <msup> (x + 3) 2</msup> do?
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  59. # [01:59] <Hixie> show an error
  60. # [03:00] <Hixie> msup needs two children
  61. # [03:00] <Hixie> <msup>x 2</msup> would work
  62. # [03:00] <Hixie> <msup><mrow>(x+3)</mrow>2</msup> would work
  63. # [03:00] <Hixie> (not sure what the right thing to do is with the brackets)
  64. # [03:00] <jgraham> Right but authors will expect <msup>(x + 2) 2</msup> to work
  65. # [03:01] <jgraham> If <msup>x 2</msup> works
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  74. # [03:30] <Hixie> jgraham__: authors expect a lot of things to work. they get over it when it doesn't. :-)
  75. # [03:32] <Pavlov> Hixie: what happens if you have implied <mi> and then add a <mi> element?
  76. # [03:32] <Pavlov> or just change mi?
  77. # [03:33] <Pavlov> or change msup
  78. # [03:33] <Pavlov> (i can imagine several different things, all of which are pretty confusing)
  79. # [03:35] <Hixie> how do you mean?
  80. # [03:36] <Pavlov> like in your example http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Equations_in_HTML
  81. # [03:36] <Pavlov> if i add a <mo> element to the first mrow from script, what happens?
  82. # [03:37] <Hixie> you mean like you change the markup to <math> x <mo>=</mo> <mfrac> ... ?
  83. # [03:37] <Hixie> it wouldn't make any difference, the markup is equivalent
  84. # [03:37] <Pavlov> say you start with <math>x =</math>
  85. # [03:38] <Hixie> oh you mean through DOM manipulation?
  86. # [03:38] <Pavlov> right
  87. # [03:38] <Hixie> the elements would all be there in the DOM all the time
  88. # [03:38] <Hixie> the parser would insert them
  89. # [03:38] <Hixie> like it does with tbody in tables
  90. # [03:38] <Hixie> if that's not what you meant, i'll reply when i get back from dinner
  91. # [03:38] <Hixie> gotta go
  92. # [03:38] <Pavlov> thats weird though isn't it?
  93. # [03:39] <othermaciej> implied elements are weird
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  96. # [03:53] <shepazu> implied elements make script authors do a lot more work
  97. # [03:53] <Dashiva> You mean less
  98. # [03:53] <shepazu> no...
  99. # [03:54] <Dashiva> Implied elements mean we don't have to check if there's actually a tbody present. Then XHTML comes along and ruins it
  100. # [03:54] <shepazu> when I author a document, I expect the markup to be represented in the DOM just as I wrote the markup
  101. # [03:55] <shepazu> if I could rely on that, I wouldn't have to do screwy tests to find out what the DOM thinks the markup should be
  102. # [03:55] <shepazu> so the author ends up having to do extra tests
  103. # [03:55] <Dashiva> Implied elements are predictable
  104. # [03:56] <shepazu> to expert authors, probably so
  105. # [03:56] <shepazu> but most authors are not expert
  106. # [03:57] <shepazu> I prefer wysiwyg DOM parsing
  107. # [03:58] <Philip`> Hypothesis: Most authors wouldn't predict <tbody>
  108. # [03:58] <Dashiva> Hypothesis: Most authors either use .tBodies[0] because they were told to, or use getElementsByTagName('tr') and don't care about the tbody
  109. # [03:58] <shepazu> I suspect most authors don't even know <tbody> exists
  110. # [03:59] <Philip`> Everybody always includes <html> and <head> and <body> even though those could easily be omitted and implied
  111. # [04:00] <Philip`> so it seems people don't understand the concept of implied elements to an extent that they intentionally make use of it
  112. # [04:00] <shepazu> I say, the less voodoo the better
  113. # [04:01] * othermaciej is now known as om_afk
  114. # [04:01] <Dashiva> shepazu: Well, have fun with your documentElement when <html> is implied
  115. # [04:02] <shepazu> why would I not include an <html> element?
  116. # [04:02] <shepazu> I would expect and hope for an error if I tried to do that
  117. # [04:02] <shepazu> (use documentElement if I didn't have an <html> element)
  118. # [04:02] <Dashiva> HTML is big on silent error recovery
  119. # [04:03] <shepazu> yes, I think I heard someone mention that in passing
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  121. # [04:03] <shepazu> but I didn't take them seriously
  122. # [04:05] <shepazu> I don't mind silent error recovery when I'm browsing
  123. # [04:05] <shepazu> but I want to be able to serve the best possible content for my readers/users
  124. # [04:06] <deane> I think there's a strong case to keep the differences between html and xhtml to a minimum. Which means that I think SVG and MathML markup should be the same in html5 and xhtml5
  125. # [04:07] <deane> They could be the same right?
  126. # [04:07] <shepazu> well, obviously you'll get no argument from me there, but I wasn't talking about SVG (for once)
  127. # [04:07] <Dashiva> There's nothing preventing you from making implicit elements explicit
  128. # [04:08] <deane> But it's not me that I'm worried about
  129. # [04:08] <deane> other authors will be confused between two syntaxes
  130. # [04:09] <markp> that would certainly make sam happy
  131. # [04:09] <markp> (reducing differences)
  132. # [04:10] <deane> ... otherwise we end up with bits of SVG and MathML that only work in text/html
  133. # [04:10] <Dashiva> I would expect that anyone able to understand mathml well enough to write it by hand would not be confused
  134. # [04:10] <markp> afaik, there's only one person who does that
  135. # [04:10] <markp> in the whole web
  136. # [04:11] <shepazu> Dashiva, I would argue that anyone that writes mathml by hand is confused ;)
  137. # [04:11] <shepazu> (says the guy that draws SVG content in a text editor)
  138. # [04:11] <Dashiva> That, too, is true
  139. # [04:12] <markp> sam draws svg in vi
  140. # [04:12] <shepazu> ugh.
  141. # [04:12] <markp> he's quite good at it
  142. # [04:12] <shepazu> I used TextPad or TextMate
  143. # [04:12] <markp> to each his own
  144. # [04:12] <shepazu> yup
  145. # [04:14] <shepazu> honestly, I think that there's a serious case for being able to tweak document structure that makes using a text editor to make or massage SVG rather reasonable, though it's not for everyone
  146. # [04:15] <shepazu> just kidding about MathML, of course... the only times I've used MathML I did it by hand, of course
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  154. # [05:58] <Hixie> i don't think optimising text/html syntax for compatibility with xhtml makes any sense
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  163. # [07:25] <heyadayo> hello
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  165. # [07:26] <heyadayo> I'm implementing a close approximation of the html5 TCPConnection for current/older browsers, and I had some questions
  166. # [07:27] <heyadayo> Do any browsers currently implement the html5 EventListener?
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  184. # [09:27] <hsivonen> jgraham__: I think the proper way for Mathematica to encode a superset of information would be to make sure Content MathML is rich enough to represent the superset in a cross-product way
  185. # [09:30] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'd prefer to have DOM consistency between HTML5+MathML and XHTML5+MathML-as-defined-by-its-own-WG
  186. # [09:30] <hsivonen> Hixie: if MathML has something bad, I'd prefer to get MathML 3 changed instead of HTML WG shunning parts of it
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  189. # [09:35] <hsivonen> http://academia.hixie.ch/physics/2dfsurvey/report/report.xml looks terrible in Firefox 3.0b4 on Mac
  190. # [09:36] <gavin> what parts look terrible?
  191. # [09:38] <gavin> seems to be ok for me
  192. # [09:38] <gavin> but I'm not sure if I'm not seeing the ugliness because I don't know what to expect and am just not noticing it, or because I don't have the right fonts, or because my build is newer than yours, or because I'm on Windows
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  197. # [10:10] <roc> I can see a few things that could be improved, but I wouldn't say it looks terrible
  198. # [10:10] <roc> on trunk anyway ... there are a few table improvements post-b4
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  202. # [10:32] <[malfi]> hi all
  203. # [10:34] <hsivonen> gavin: the formulas that stand on their own on a line spread to the whole view port width
  204. # [10:36] <gavin> hsivonen: http://people.mozilla.org/~gavin/mathml.png is what I see
  205. # [10:37] <gavin> (latest trunk nightly on windows)
  206. # [10:37] <gavin> I would be interested in knowing whether a more recent build fixes the problems you're seeing
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  211. # [10:58] <hsivonen> gavin: much better than b4 on Mac
  212. # [10:59] <Hixie> hsivonen: yes, i completely agree, i was only considering conformance requirements that were a subset of the mathml spec
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  216. # [11:14] <Hixie> i wonder if there are ever times in mathml where <mi> and/or <mn> elements are siblings without an intervening <mo> element
  217. # [11:20] <hsivonen> Hixie: but why bother with all the inference if the result is still ugly enough that people will use converters from *TeX, Mathematica, etc. or a GUI editor?
  218. # [11:37] <Hixie> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Equations_in_HTML
  219. # [11:37] <Hixie> it's not that bad after just removing mn, mo, and mi
  220. # [11:37] <Hixie> and that's, as far as i can tell, a trivial optimisation in most cases
  221. # [11:37] <Hixie> since it only affects markup that cannot otherwise be valid
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  223. # [11:39] <Hixie> seems like we could make Nd, Nl, and No trigger <mn>, Pc, Pd, Po, Sm, Sk, and So trigger <mo>, and Lu, Ll, Lt, Lm, Lo, and Sc trigger <mi>
  224. # [11:40] <Hixie> and maybe do something clever with fences for Ps, Pe, Pi, and Pf
  225. # [11:40] <Hixie> (i haven't looked at this in detail yet)
  226. # [11:40] <Hixie> but fundamentally, even if we limit this to ascii, it's still going to be a big step forward.
  227. # [11:46] <hsivonen> Hixie: lookups from the Unicode DB would break the current property of the parsing algorithm of keeping all syntax-significant characters in the Basic Latin range
  228. # [11:46] <hsivonen> (so the current spec allow per-code unit parsing in all of UTF-8, UTF-16 and UTF-32)
  229. # [11:47] <Hixie> true
  230. # [11:47] <hsivonen> (once the stream is guaranteed to be valid UTF-8, UTF-16 or UTF-32 by the encoding layer)
  231. # [11:47] <Hixie> but like i said, we could even limit it to ascii
  232. # [11:47] <Hixie> it would still be hugely helpful
  233. # [11:47] <Hixie> (especially since once people get outside ascii, it's increasingly unlikely that the markup is hand-maintainable anyway
  234. # [11:48] <Hixie> )
  235. # [11:48] <Hixie> incidentally, i don't see any way to get the math guys to abandon the folly of wanting multiple representations of a single equation in the markup, which is another point against going the mathml route
  236. # [11:49] <hsivonen> &InvisibleTimes; is a crazy number of characters to type by hand for something can turns into glyphlessness
  237. # [11:49] <Hixie> yes earlier i was looking at how to imply <mo>&InvisibleTimes;</mo>
  238. # [11:50] <Hixie> <Hixie> i wonder if there are ever times in mathml where <mi> and/or <mn> elements are siblings without an intervening <mo> element
  239. # [11:51] <hsivonen> fwiw, tag inference in HTML 4 has already been a pain for HTML5
  240. # [11:52] <hsivonen> wouldn't tag inference in MathML 3 be a pain fo MathML 4?
  241. # [12:01] <Hixie> why has it been a pain in HTML5?
  242. # [12:01] <Hixie> tag inference is one of the main features of html that makes it usable from an authoring perspective, imho
  243. # [12:08] <hsivonen> Hixie: we can't allow <ul> in <p>
  244. # [12:09] <hsivonen> Hixie: we can't allow <table> in <p> post-Acid2
  245. # [12:09] <hsivonen> there are probably other features involving <p> that I'm not even thinking about because of the end tag inference
  246. # [12:11] <roc> where is this math-in-HTML discussion happening? public-html?
  247. # [12:12] <hsivonen> roc: mostly public-html with some messages from William Hammond on www-math only
  248. # [12:14] <Hixie> hsivonen: i think those might actually be good things, frankly. but yes, it does constrain future language development.
  249. # [12:14] <Hixie> i think that's an acceptable cost
  250. # [12:14] <Hixie> anyway, bed time
  251. # [12:14] <Hixie> if you find a way to convince them to not require html5 to support both presentational and content mathml, let me know :-)
  252. # [12:16] <roc> is it at least settled that any solution would construct a MathML DOM for rendering?
  253. # [12:17] <roc> gavin: your screenshot actually looks pretty bad to me, my Mac build looks much better because the curly braces stretch
  254. # [12:17] <roc> you probably just don't have the right fonts
  255. # [12:20] <hsivonen> what's mozilla-central?
  256. # [12:20] <roc> a Mercurial code repository that you probably shouldn't be interested in
  257. # [12:21] <hsivonen> roc: thanks. I download from latest-trunk then
  258. # [12:21] <roc> yeah
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  260. # [12:23] <roc> the problems I saw on that page were 1) stretchy braces have slight thickness variations along the stem (known antialiasing bug) 2) some table columns sized a bit too wide 3) primes ( ' ) maybe positioned a little high
  261. # [12:26] <hsivonen> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/screen/mathml-firefox3b4.png
  262. # [12:39] <hsivonen> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/screen/mathml-minefield-2008-03-29.png
  263. # [12:39] <hsivonen> much better
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  269. # [13:06] <roc_> hsivonen: er yoicks, I had no idea beta4 was that broken
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  306. # [17:13] * annevk reads the Math thread
  307. # [17:13] * annevk kind of likes the idea of characters implying elements
  308. # [17:22] <hsivonen> ttp://realtech.burningbird.net/standards/acid3-and-my-head-hurts/
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  310. # [17:24] <annevk> I don't really understand that post
  311. # [17:36] <hsivonen> I read it as "don't fix browser bugs when my book is going to press"
  312. # [17:38] <annevk> lol
  313. # [17:43] <Dashiva> What kind of proofs, though?
  314. # [17:44] <Dashiva> And who writes a book about beta-version browers anyhow
  315. # [17:44] <hsivonen> Dashiva: proofs of the proof-print kind, I suppose
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  320. # [18:21] <roc> I think that post is probably complaining about features being enabled on trunk builds with no clear roadmap to them actually being shipped
  321. # [18:24] <annevk> oh
  322. # [18:24] <hsivonen> ok. that wasn't too clear
  323. # [18:24] <annevk> well, in case of Opera it will ship post-Kestrel unless we find some way to make it work for Kestrel, but I doubt that
  324. # [18:24] <annevk> that's not really a secret
  325. # [18:25] <annevk> (Kestrel is near ready, much like Firefox 3)
  326. # [18:25] <hsivonen> roadmap-wise, I'd be interested in XHR+AC roadmap post Firefox 3
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  334. # [20:05] <othermaciej_> Safari/WebKit has never given a roadmap to shipping for anything
  335. # [20:05] <othermaciej_> and we've been known to disable trunk features on release branches
  336. # [20:05] <othermaciej_> so
  337. # [20:05] <othermaciej_> I don't think Acid3 can be blamed
  338. # [20:14] <gsnedders> It's Acid3's fault. kthxbai.
  339. # [20:14] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  340. # [20:22] <othermaciej> we're obviously not going to ship Acid3 fixes in Safari 3.1, since it has already shipped
  341. # [20:28] * Joins: sayrer (n=chatzill@user-1087kf0.cable.mindspring.com)
  342. # [20:31] <gsnedders> WHAT!?
  343. # [20:31] <gsnedders> You're kidding, right?
  344. # [20:33] <sayrer> what is the smallest SVG spec?
  345. # [20:33] <othermaciej> that's right, we can't go back in time
  346. # [20:33] <shepazu> sayrer: probably the VML note that MS proposed is the smallest SVG spec :)
  347. # [20:34] <sayrer> shepazu, seriously, what's the smallest?
  348. # [20:34] <shepazu> I honestly don't know, but I'd have to guess SVG 1.0
  349. # [20:35] <shepazu> that said, I think SVG Tiny 1.2 is much more clean and well-defined
  350. # [20:35] <sayrer> I should clarify--I meant number of features, rather than spec length
  351. # [20:35] <shepazu> and though it has features some people don't like, is a better implementation target
  352. # [20:35] <sayrer> a long spec detailing a small number features would be best
  353. # [20:35] * hsivonen guesses 1.1 Tiny/Mobile
  354. # [20:35] <shepazu> oh, then probably SVG Tiny 1.2
  355. # [20:36] <shepazu> oops
  356. # [20:36] <shepazu> SVG Tiny 1.1
  357. # [20:36] <shepazu> but that doesn't have scripting support, so most browsers already pass that by
  358. # [20:36] <hsivonen> sayrer: why?
  359. # [20:37] <othermaciej> each version of SVG has somewhat incompatibly changed the semantics (mostly minor)
  360. # [20:37] <sayrer> I want to use SVG for a purpose that doesn't have many requirements
  361. # [20:37] <othermaciej> for instance 1.1 technically requires you to catastrophically fail at rendering any time any attribute value is invalid
  362. # [20:37] <sayrer> just simple drawings
  363. # [20:37] <shepazu> then SVG Tiny 1.1
  364. # [20:38] <sayrer> hmm, it has animation
  365. # [20:38] <shepazu> true
  366. # [20:38] <sayrer> guess I have to make SVG 1.1 ReallyTiny
  367. # [20:38] <shepazu> lol
  368. # [20:38] <sayrer> interactivity is not required either
  369. # [20:39] <othermaciej> I don't think there is an SVG spec that is only suitable for simple drawings and no more
  370. # [20:39] <shepazu> then you can simply do a profile of SVG
  371. # [20:39] <othermaciej> some are more out of control than others
  372. # [20:39] <shepazu> there's an appendix that describes various profiles, including static
  373. # [20:39] <sayrer> oh good
  374. # [20:39] <shepazu> lemme find it
  375. # [20:40] * Joins: svl_ (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  376. # [20:40] <shepazu> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/feature.html
  377. # [20:41] <shepazu> see http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/feature#SVG-static
  378. # [20:41] <sayrer> hmm, still has xlink
  379. # [20:41] <sayrer> I don't need links
  380. # [20:42] <shepazu> that's also used for inbound links, like image references
  381. # [20:42] <sayrer> well, I only want to allow data URLs for those
  382. # [20:42] <sayrer> do I have to use xlink to get that?
  383. # [20:43] <sayrer> lordy
  384. # [20:43] * shepazu is puzzled why that's a problem
  385. # [20:43] <shepazu> it's not like that's a big implementation burden
  386. # [20:43] <sayrer> well, "src" would be three characters
  387. # [20:44] <sayrer> it is not hard to implement, I agree
  388. # [20:44] <sayrer> just verbose
  389. # [20:44] <shepazu> "r" would be one character
  390. # [20:44] <shepazu> the size of a data:URL is going to dwarf any attribute name
  391. # [20:45] <sayrer> but now I have to use namespaces
  392. # [20:45] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  393. # [20:45] <sayrer> or more than one, anyway
  394. # [20:45] <sayrer> always a sign of trouble
  395. # [20:45] * shepazu is going to avoid this religious issue
  396. # [20:46] <sayrer> well, it's not religious in this case
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  406. # [20:46] * svl_ is now known as svl
  407. # [20:46] <sayrer> I don't need this to be extensible, so namespaces aren't helping much :)
  408. # [20:46] <shepazu> netsplit!!! run for your lives!
  409. # [20:47] <sayrer> shepazu, so are the features discussed in this appendix the same things I would find in SVG Tiny?
  410. # [20:47] <sayrer> or is there a table that explains this concisely somewhere?
  411. # [20:48] <shepazu> sayrer: not sure... look in SVG Tiny 1.1 for the featurestrings there
  412. # [20:48] <shepazu> I don't know of such a table, but I think it would behoove the SVG WG to make one
  413. # [20:49] <shepazu> I'm happy to bring that up, or champion it if you sent an email to www-svg explaining your use case
  414. # [20:49] <sayrer> well, I'm still exploring right now, so I think my explanation would be bad
  415. # [20:49] <sayrer> but I will do that eventually
  416. # [20:50] <shepazu> ok, that'd be great
  417. # [20:50] <shepazu> interestingly enough, I was just writing an email about how static SVG is taking off more and more
  418. # [20:52] <sayrer> it looks like the Mobile/Tiny stuff insists on interactivity
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  420. # [20:53] <shepazu> sayrer: I think an SVG Core spec for static SVG, without interactivity or animation, would be interesting
  421. # [20:54] <shepazu> or SVG Static, whatever
  422. # [20:54] <sayrer> do you think it would take a long time to specify? or would it be a cut and paste job?
  423. # [20:54] <shepazu> it might be of interest to drawing tools and other scenarios where they think SVG is too heavy
  424. # [20:55] <shepazu> sayrer: more or less the latter
  425. # [20:56] <shepazu> but finding time and resources to do that within the WG might be hard, considering that most of the participants are interested in dynamic, scripted, animated, and interactive aspects of SVG
  426. # [20:57] <sayrer> seems like it would be uncontroversial as a W3C Note
  427. # [20:57] <shepazu> if this is of interest to Mozilla, and you put some resources in (and maybe helped find other participants who would do the same), I think we could do it
  428. # [20:57] <shepazu> I don't think it would be controversial as a spec, actually
  429. # [20:57] <shepazu> just a matter of resources
  430. # [20:57] <sayrer> tbh, I'm kind of dismayed it doesn't already exist, and wasn't considering resource allocation
  431. # [20:58] <sayrer> so I'll see how this goes
  432. # [20:58] <shepazu> ok, let me know
  433. # [20:58] <shepazu> like I said, that featurestring is a reasonable profile
  434. # [20:59] * shepazu is curious what sayrer is planning... is this for Mozilla?
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  436. # [20:59] <sayrer> yes, it is, but it's just my pet project
  437. # [20:59] * shepazu guesses it's for Thunderbird
  438. # [20:59] <shepazu> that's cool
  439. # [20:59] <sayrer> nah, I don't work on Thunderbird much
  440. # [21:00] * Philip` wonders what one would call a project about pets, to distinguish it from the term 'pet project'
  441. # [21:01] <sayrer> but this is unrelated to Firefox's general SVG stuff
  442. # [21:01] <shepazu> taxidermy?
  443. # [21:01] <sayrer> sorry I'm being so dodgy, I'm not ready to talk much about it
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  453. # [21:07] * shepazu was just watching a heron fishing in his backyard pond :D
  454. # [21:07] <shepazu> really cool, the way they move... keeping their head in the same position while they walk up underneath it for each step
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  456. # [21:42] * hsivonen really doesn't like the RELAX NG duplicate attribute prohibition
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  458. # [21:58] <zcorpan_> i think it would be useful to look at text/html pages that have <math> or <svg> tags in order to figure out if the scoping proposal would break stuff
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  467. # [22:32] * gsnedders_ is now known as gsnedders
  468. # [22:47] * Joins: gsnedders_ (n=gsnedder@host217-44-37-113.range217-44.btcentralplus.com)
  469. # [22:48] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-164-128-195.range86-164.btcentralplus.com) (Nick collision from services.)
  470. # [22:48] * gsnedders_ is now known as gsnedders
  471. # [23:02] * Quits: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  472. # [23:04] * Quits: starjive (i=beos@81-233-18-73-no30.tbcn.telia.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  473. # [23:11] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@124-168-70-20.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("bye")
  474. # [23:52] * Quits: MacDome (n=eric@c-24-130-11-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  475. # Session Close: Mon Mar 31 00:00:00 2008

The end :)