/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-03-31 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Mar 31 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:06] <Hixie> haha shelley wants progress on the web to stop so that a book doesn't go out of date
  6. # [00:06] <Hixie> that's funny
  7. # [00:07] <Pavlov> that person work for microsoft?
  8. # [00:07] <othermaciej> frankly
  9. # [00:08] <othermaciej> if authors of books about web technology are frustrated at the rapid pace of progress
  10. # [00:08] <othermaciej> then I am happy
  11. # [00:08] <gsnedders> It means the web isn't stagnating.
  12. # [00:09] <othermaciej> but I think Shelley was more complaining about lack of roadmap
  13. # [00:09] <othermaciej> from the various engines
  14. # [00:10] <Dashiva> You don't really plan bugs ahead of time, and once you discover them holding back a fix for no good reason is kinda... odd.
  15. # [00:12] <Hixie> i don't even understand http://realtech.burningbird.net/semweb/wordpress-25-releases/#comment-696
  16. # [00:12] <Hixie> i think what shelley is saying is that html5 shouldn't be easy because if it's easy people will use it instead of xhtml.
  17. # [00:15] <Dashiva> Does Shelley really think that with namespaces you can add new languages without the browsers needing to implement it first?
  18. # [00:15] <Hixie> a lot of people seriously think that
  19. # [00:15] <Hixie> a lot of people even think it's a good idea
  20. # [00:19] <Hixie> anyone have any web pages that use mathml that aren't, like, the blogs of editors of the spec or anything like that?
  21. # [00:19] <gsnedders> the spec == MathML?
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  23. # [00:22] <sayrer> Hixie, Jacques Distler's pages?
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  25. # [00:23] <sayrer> http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/blog/archives/001642.html#more
  26. # [00:23] <sayrer> for example
  27. # [00:24] <Hixie> yeah i have that one already
  28. # [00:24] <Hixie> but he might as well be on the committee :-)
  29. # [00:24] <Hixie> bbl lunch
  30. # [00:25] * Dashiva wonders what a stretchy operator is
  31. # [00:26] <sayrer> Hixie, http://mathcast.sourceforge.net/fields.xml
  32. # [00:32] <jgraham> Dashiva: presumably something like http://www.pixar.com/featurefilms/incredibles/chars_pop2.html
  33. # [00:33] <jgraham> (seriously, it's something like a summation sign that needs to change size depending on what it operates on)
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  36. # [00:53] <webben_> seen in #css: "is it possible to make a list go vertically upwards instead of downwards?" ... seem to remember this cropping up as a request before on the WHATWG/public-html lists. :)
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  47. # [02:02] <BenMillard> hixie, from the IRC logs I see you wrote "anyone have any web pages that use mathml that aren't, like, the blogs of editors of the spec or anything like that?" to which I'd suggest the only web pages that make *good* use HTML are from a similar segment of the population
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  49. # [02:08] <BenMillard> "You can learn a lot by viewing an interesting page with MathML and selecting 'View Page Source'." from http://www.pdas.com/mathml.htm suggests it exists
  50. # [02:10] * Philip` finds one page using a <math> element
  51. # [02:11] <Philip`> http://www.unics.uni-hannover.de/cpr/x/rueckemann/de/rueckemann.html - "Paderborn Center for Parallel Computing (PC<MATH CLASS=INLINE><SUP>2</SUP></MATH>)"
  52. # [02:11] <BenMillard> http://www-math.mit.edu/18.013A/MathML/chapter06/section01.xhtml is from http://www-math.mit.edu/18.013A/ which is a MIT course material...since MIT is part of W3C maybe that doesn't count?
  53. # [02:12] <BenMillard> http://www.math.uah.edu/stat/ seems to use it throughout (states MathML support as a requirement on the homepage)
  54. # [02:12] <BenMillard> btw I'm finding these by Googling for "mathml on the web"
  55. # [02:13] <BenMillard> http://www.math.uah.edu/stat/foundations/Sets.xhtml - an example from the previous site
  56. # [02:22] <BenMillard> http://www.mozilla.org/projects/mathml/ was a project to develop MathML authoring tools and interoperable practices, such as using <object>
  57. # [02:26] <BenMillard> http://pear.math.pitt.edu/mathzilla/Examples/markupOftheWeek.mhtml uses MathML, the site also has this paper where MathML is used inside sentences: http://pear.math.pitt.edu/mathzilla/Examples/DynHieruni.xml
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  62. # [02:37] <BenMillard> http://www1.chapman.edu/~jipsen/mathml/asciimath.html uses ASCII which is then turned into markup using JS, it states "ASCIIMathML is being used with Movable Type, WordPress, phpBB, and many wikis." but I can't find links to example sites
  63. # [02:38] <BenMillard> the Web appears to be a big place
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  65. # [02:53] <BenMillard> http://www.dessci.com/en/products/webeq/ is a MathML editor which produces MathML and uses Java. that page claims "The world's leading e-learning companies, content developers and education portals are using WebEQ to create web-based learning environments that help educators engage students in math and science on the web." but I cannot find example pages of these
  66. # [03:05] <Dashiva> BenMillard: Probably a lot on intranets, but that doesn't help us
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  68. # [03:10] <Hixie> webben_: html5 has <ol reversed> or some such now
  69. # [03:10] <webben_> Hixie: cool
  70. # [03:10] <Hixie> BenMillard: oh i'm not looking for pages that use mathml correctly :-)
  71. # [03:11] <Hixie> BenMillard: i'm looking for "real" pages
  72. # [03:14] <webben_> http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/category/ and the journals mentioned in the mathml thread seem relevant
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  74. # [03:32] <Hixie> BenMillard, webben: thanks for the links
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  76. # [03:47] <BenMillard> hixie, np. there were lots of results for searches along those lines
  77. # [03:47] <Hixie> cool
  78. # [03:47] <Hixie> i shall investigate further
  79. # [03:51] <BenMillard> webben, <ol reversed> was in Hixie's response here http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Feb/0357.html
  80. # [03:51] * weinig|foooods is now known as weinig
  81. # [03:51] <BenMillard> (search for "9 Jan 2008" to see messages which led to it)
  82. # [03:52] <BenMillard> (the forum thread it links to here http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?t=130 has lots of use cases)
  83. # [03:52] <Hixie> it's in the spec here: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#reversed
  84. # [03:53] <BenMillard> and in the multipage version (which I much prefer!) here: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-grouping.html#reversed
  85. # [03:55] <Hixie> :-)
  86. # [03:55] <Hixie> i hate multipage specs
  87. # [03:55] <Hixie> i can never find anything in them
  88. # [03:57] <BenMillard> as an author, I'm usually looking for a specific element or attribute, so they are OK if there's an index of those things
  89. # [03:58] <Hixie> yeah
  90. # [03:58] <Hixie> we will eventually add much better indexing
  91. # [03:58] <BenMillard> the front page is pretty good with find-in-page
  92. # [03:59] <Hixie> (gsnedders doesn't know it yet, but if he ends up writing a good preprocessor, he'll probably end up helping out a lot in that area)
  93. # [04:01] <Hixie> it's weird how people associate syntax with language
  94. # [04:01] <Hixie> (c.f. David Carlisle's e-mail)
  95. # [04:03] <BenMillard> there are so many I don't know which that is :)
  96. # [04:03] <Hixie> more recent ones
  97. # [04:03] <Hixie> it is weird that we are getting so much reluctance from the mathml group to make their syntax easier
  98. # [04:03] <Hixie> given that the mathml syntax is the number 1 problem with mathml
  99. # [04:04] <BenMillard> oh, I see
  100. # [04:06] <BenMillard> if the people using the syntax are happy with the syntax then it doesn't seem like a problem to me...
  101. # [04:07] <Hixie> the people who aren't happy with their syntax aren't using it :-)
  102. # [04:08] <Hixie> seriously though, compare the first two examples in http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Equations_in_HTML
  103. # [04:08] <Hixie> how do we _not_ want people to use the second?
  104. # [04:08] <BenMillard> neither are things I'd ever want to write, personally :P
  105. # [04:09] <BenMillard> from what I've read, the tools handle the syntax and the author uses a word processor, or they use an ASCII-based syntax which is then coverted by a tool
  106. # [04:09] <Hixie> can't argue with that
  107. # [04:09] <Hixie> unfortunately "the tools with save us" has rarely worked on the web
  108. # [04:10] <BenMillard> indeed, but mathematicians aren't noobs and the MathML which exists seems pretty well authored, from the little I've seen
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  110. # [04:11] <Hixie> just like english majors aren't the only audience of prose html elements, mathematicians aren't the only audience for the math parts
  111. # [04:11] <Hixie> and frankly, most mathematicians _are_ noobs when it comes to writing markup and using equation editors
  112. # [04:11] <Hixie> after all, they're experts in maths, not editors
  113. # [04:11] <BenMillard> heh
  114. # [04:12] <BenMillard> you think non-mathematicians would use any sort of math markup?
  115. # [04:18] <Hixie> i'm not a mathematician
  116. # [04:18] <Hixie> and my final year report for my physics degree had loads of mathml in it
  117. # [04:18] <Hixie> handwritten
  118. # [04:18] <Hixie> painfully
  119. # [04:19] <BenMillard> my idea of a "mathematician" is broad and would include people who publish any degree-level maths
  120. # [04:20] <BenMillard> would you expect math markup to appear around casual sums, like people adding up the cost-per-year of their TV service?
  121. # [04:21] <Hixie> no
  122. # [04:21] <Hixie> but i wouldn't be surprised to see it in a web page talking about 3d graphics
  123. # [04:21] <BenMillard> ok, so we only expect math markup from people who are fairly serious about maths?
  124. # [04:22] <Hixie> i'm not sure what "fairly serious" means really
  125. # [04:22] <Hixie> i'd expect people to use things like fractions long before they knew about integration
  126. # [04:24] <Hixie> well a brief adhoc survey of pages that use mathml suggests that none of them use both presentational mathml and content mathml, though one page did use content mathml and convert it to presentational mathml using xslt, which is pretty cool
  127. # [04:24] <Hixie> clearly i need to do a more serious study
  128. # [04:36] <webben_> "A valid browsing context name is any string that does not start with a U+005F LOW LINE character, or, a string that case-insensitively matches one of: _self, _parent, or _top. (Names starting with an underscore are reserved for special keywords.)" ... is making "_blank" invalid deliberate?
  129. # [04:36] <webben_> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#valid8
  130. # [04:40] <Hixie> yeah
  131. # [04:40] <Hixie> but we'll probably change that
  132. # [04:41] <Hixie> and instead make it optional for UAs to honour it
  133. # [04:42] <webben_> Hixie: Okay, just wondering. Thanks for the info. :)
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  136. # [04:51] <BenMillard> the month I took off work ends on 1st April, officially. so making websites will become my priority once again
  137. # [04:51] <BenMillard> night night
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  290. # [11:22] <hendry> anyone going to Xtech?
  291. # [11:22] <hsivonen> hendry: I am
  292. # [11:23] <hendry> hsivonen: ok, great. :)
  293. # [11:35] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Ex-Chat")
  294. # [11:41] <gsnedders> Hixie: I know now :P
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  297. # [11:55] <jgraham__> http://blog.ianbicking.org/2008/03/30/python-html-parser-performance/
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  299. # [12:00] <hsivonen> jgraham__: last summer, the html5lib source didn't look performance-oriented
  300. # [12:00] <jgraham__> hsivonen: It's not
  301. # [12:00] <hsivonen> though I don't know if cPython does Scheme-like optimizations
  302. # [12:00] <hsivonen> I assumed it doesn't
  303. # [12:00] <jgraham__> although it has got better since last summer
  304. # [12:01] <jgraham__> You mean the tail call optimization stuff?
  305. # [12:01] <hsivonen> jgraham__: yes
  306. # [12:01] <jgraham__> That doesn't even feature on the radar of perf. problems for typical documents
  307. # [12:02] <jgraham__> Last I checked, we spend somewhere around half the time just reading characters
  308. # [12:02] <hsivonen> ah
  309. # [12:03] <jgraham__> (although that may actually have gone down, we had a patch that improved things and I might be remembering numbers from before that patch)
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  315. # [12:55] <gsnedders> Philip`: http://hg.gsnedders.com/hgwebdir.cgi/http-parsing/file/fbfbeb6b74b7/Philip%20Taylor%27s%20Header%20Data/README.txt — comments?
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  320. # [13:23] <hsivonen> book authors should read my site :-) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Mar/0435.html
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  322. # [13:42] <hsivonen> hmm. the University of Illinois ARIA demos have bad target attribute values and unescaped spaces in URIs
  323. # [13:51] <hsivonen> WHOA! http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Mar/0437.html
  324. # [13:53] <Philip`> gsnedders: That makes it sound really complex
  325. # [13:53] <gsnedders> Philip`: :P
  326. # [13:53] <Philip`> gsnedders: In my existing content, the uri attribute isn't necessarily syntactically valid
  327. # [13:54] <gsnedders> ergh.
  328. # [13:54] <Philip`> If I remember correctly, it's taken directly from the dmoz.org list
  329. # [13:54] <Philip`> and a few of those are broken
  330. # [13:54] <Philip`> so they're likely to end up as <error>s
  331. # [13:55] <gsnedders> from what I saw they are all valid IRIs, but not URIs
  332. # [13:55] <takkaria> hsivonen: that makes me unhappy
  333. # [13:55] <hsivonen> takkaria: yeah. versioning is bad for Web formats
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  335. # [13:57] <Philip`> gsnedders: Hmm, error messages have types?
  336. # [13:57] <gsnedders> Philip`: in what you gave me they do :P
  337. # [13:57] <Philip`> Oh, so they do
  338. # [13:58] <Philip`> res.statusCode != HttpStatus.SC_OK causes type=http
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  340. # [13:58] <Philip`> IOException (e.g. any HTTP error detected inside HttpClient, I think) causes type=io
  341. # [13:58] <Philip`> Any other Exception causes type=other
  342. # [13:59] <hsivonen> Validator.nu with HTML5+ARIA is now up
  343. # [13:59] <hsivonen> (where ARIA is more like ARIA with my opinion)
  344. # [13:59] * gsnedders wonders if he can con his way into going to France/Swizerland for next Sunday
  345. # [14:00] <hsivonen> I'll test it some more and then proceed to announce it as an executable suggestion
  346. # [14:00] <gsnedders> LHC's last open day
  347. # [14:02] <Philip`> gsnedders: All you need to do is become a particle physicist, and then spend a couple of years analysing data from it, and then maybe you'd be able to visit it and have a good look
  348. # [14:02] <gsnedders> Philip`: Particle physics aren't really my area, though
  349. # [14:02] <hsivonen> hmm. I forgot to add IDREF checking for ARIA...
  350. # [14:03] <gsnedders> s/aren't/isn't.
  351. # [14:03] <gsnedders> s#.#/#
  352. # [14:03] <gsnedders> you can tell I'm a scientist, my English is bad :P
  353. # [14:04] * Philip` starts reading the maths thread again, then sees the size of the scrollbars and stops
  354. # [14:04] * gsnedders has just started too
  355. # [14:04] <Philip`> s/starts/accidentally starts/
  356. # [14:08] <takkaria> gsnedders: ~£155 it looks like
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  358. # [14:08] <hsivonen> how do I test in XPath than a node returned by id() is a descendant of the context node?
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  360. # [14:14] * hsivonen guesses test='id(@aria-activedescendant) = descendant::*'
  361. # [14:15] <Philip`> gsnedders: It would be useful to say stuff like whether the data for a given uri might be repeated, and like which redirect URI matches the other data's uri
  362. # [14:16] <Philip`> Also this is a rubbish format for storing HTTP headers
  363. # [14:16] <Philip`> like how it's just a load of elements mashed together
  364. # [14:16] <Philip`> It'd seem much better to design a more useful format, then convert the old XML files into that
  365. # [14:17] <Philip`> (particularly since any similar files I produce in the future are likely to be slightly different formats anyway)
  366. # [14:18] <hsivonen> yay. correct guess
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  368. # [14:34] <hsivonen> hmm. what's the point of putting a W3C Validation button on this page: http://test.cita.uiuc.edu/aria/alert/view_inline.php?title=Alert%20Example%201:%20Number%20Guessing%20Game&ginc=includes/alert1_inline.inc&gcss=css/alert1_class.css&gjs=../js/globals.js,../js/widgets_inline.js,js/alert1_class.js
  369. # [14:35] <hsivonen> (aside: the URL looks like an invitation for XSS)
  370. # [14:41] <Philip`> hsivonen: Not just XSS
  371. # [14:41] <Philip`> http://test.cita.uiuc.edu/aria/alert/view_inline.php?ginc=/etc/passwd
  372. # [14:43] <Philip`> http://test.cita.uiuc.edu/aria/alert/view_inline.php?ginc=http://google.com - still with the valid HTML 4.01 button
  373. # [14:47] * hsivonen alerted the admin
  374. # [14:47] <Philip`> You are too kind :-(
  375. # [14:52] <hsivonen> XSS vulnerabilites are alarmingly common
  376. # [14:53] <Philip`> Printing arbitrary local files seems to be much less common, fortunately
  377. # [14:53] <hsivonen> this morning, a tinyurl embedding the Pirate Bay on the site of a mandatory royalty collection society circulated on IRC
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  379. # [15:04] <gsnedders> Philip`: I'm moving all the data to SQLite anyway
  380. # [15:04] <gsnedders> Philip`: the URI after a redirect is which?
  381. # [15:05] <gsnedders> Philip`: And please don't have even more incompatible formats. I already have two to deal with :P
  382. # [15:06] <Philip`> gsnedders: I think I always print the source URI, i.e. the one that came from dmoz, i.e. before any redirects
  383. # [15:06] <gsnedders> Philip`: it seems so. I think I'll keep that undefined :P
  384. # [15:07] <Philip`> gsnedders: I'll make as many formats as are convenient for my survey process :-p
  385. # [15:07] <gsnedders> Philip`: damn you :P
  386. # [15:09] <Philip`> It's much easier to transform things into the desired format after it's all been condensed down to only a few hundred megabytes of easily-parsed (by regexps) XML
  387. # [15:11] <gsnedders> Philip`: Yeah, I just need more and more converters :P
  388. # [15:20] <gsnedders> Philip`: just keep the vague syntax of the header element the same, so that the same attributes exist on it :P
  389. # [15:20] <gsnedders> Philip`: even if you change the uri attribute to represent the actual URI where it came from
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  412. # [16:42] <hsivonen> zcorpan: ARIA-aware Validator.nu deployed
  413. # [16:44] <zcorpan> hsivonen: sweet!
  414. # [16:45] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i'll have a look later
  415. # [16:47] <hsivonen> I'll write some documentation and findings
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  431. # [18:14] <annevk> anyone ideas for tomorrow?
  432. # [18:19] <annevk> as in, for the blog
  433. # [18:19] <annevk> we drop support for <a> this year?
  434. # [18:20] <virtuelv> annevk: no, we can re-add the <hype> element
  435. # [18:20] <annevk> and suggest everything be done using onclick=location=... instead
  436. # [18:20] <annevk> to more clearly indicate the move towards applications
  437. # [18:20] <virtuelv> context, http://jwz.livejournal.com/856745.html
  438. # [18:22] <hsivonen> annevk: you mean like href on any element when a is gone?
  439. # [18:24] <annevk> heh
  440. # [18:24] <zcorpan> we need something more drastic
  441. # [18:24] <annevk> i meant having them do it with event listeners
  442. # [18:25] <zcorpan> like... html5 is cancelled
  443. # [18:25] <aroben> stopping development in favor of XHTML2?
  444. # [18:25] <zcorpan> or something else
  445. # [18:25] <billmason> In honor of Netscape history, version 5 is cancelled and version 6 will be written from scratch.
  446. # [18:26] <annevk> hehe
  447. # [18:27] * Joins: heyadayo3 (n=mcarter@pool-72-87-174-221.plspca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
  448. # [18:27] <annevk> http://blog.whatwg.org/html6-plan was last year fwiw
  449. # [18:28] <virtuelv> mandate python as scripting language?
  450. # [18:28] <virtuelv> because python whitespace rules are such a good match for the web
  451. # [18:28] <hsivonen> Google Python conspiracy
  452. # [18:30] <annevk> dropping HTML in favor of wiki syntax
  453. # [18:30] <annevk> all 42 flavors
  454. # [18:30] * Joins: met_ (n=Hassman@r5bx220.net.upc.cz)
  455. # [18:33] <zcorpan> the whatwg is starting to get unresponsive and is moving in the wrong direction, so we'll start a new body
  456. # [18:34] <annevk> lol, "much simpler"
  457. # [18:34] <annevk> -- http://www.w3.org/mid/035401c8934c$12dd26e0$389774a0$@com
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  462. # [18:49] * Philip` wonders if someone will point out that the text in "Definition of the style attribute in HTML 5" is only defining document conformance and nothing about processing requirements and so there is no effect on parsing
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  478. # [20:21] <annevk> there's now http://webforms2.org/
  479. # [20:21] <annevk> content welcome
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  481. # [20:25] <hober> annevk: sorry we didn't get a chance to talk much the other night (I was the one in the 5>2 shirt @ the µf dinner)
  482. # [20:25] <annevk> ah :)
  483. # [20:26] <annevk> mostly my fault I guess, I wasn't there too long
  484. # [20:27] <hober> well, it was a sufficiently long/narrow table such that I didn't really talk to anyone at the other end
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  496. # [21:24] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: i think aria attributes that would otherwise be specified on root are specified on body when the document is (x)html as implemented in firefox
  497. # [21:27] <zcorpan_> (because i and aaronlev thought that it would be more intiutive to authors)
  498. # [21:34] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: ok
  499. # [21:34] <hsivonen> thanks
  500. # [21:40] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: deployed
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  507. # [22:06] <xShad0w_> does anyone know about embedding xml, or adding xml into a html file
  508. # [22:06] <xShad0w_> anything about html5 supporting it?
  509. # [22:07] <annevk> currently no, what problem are you trying to solve?
  510. # [22:08] <xShad0w_> well im trying to embed some data
  511. # [22:08] <xShad0w_> i just need a way to store some data thats accessible with javascript
  512. # [22:08] <annevk> ah ok
  513. # [22:09] <annevk> Hixie is working on making that possible: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/CustomData
  514. # [22:09] <xShad0w_> i dont want add too much syntax with div's or such, any suggestions?
  515. # [22:09] <xShad0w_> would that pass in current browsers?
  516. # [22:09] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.105.99)
  517. # [22:09] <annevk> well, .dataset wouldn't work
  518. # [22:09] <annevk> but you could use set/getAttribute to do that
  519. # [22:10] <xShad0w_> i should set the display to none right
  520. # [22:10] <annevk> do data-* attributes work for you?
  521. # [22:11] <xShad0w_> umm yea that should work
  522. # [22:11] * Joins: webben (n=benh@91.84.250.225)
  523. # [22:12] <xShad0w_> so all the attributes have to start with data- ?
  524. # [22:12] <annevk> that's the proposal
  525. # [22:13] <xShad0w_> looks like it should work thanks
  526. # [22:14] <annevk> please note that all this is pre-alpha :)
  527. # [22:16] <xShad0w_> well i guess it won't pass w3c validation for now but hopefully it should work
  528. # [22:16] <Hixie> wow, whatever lxml does, html5lib should do :-)
  529. # [22:16] <annevk> having a native C implementation?
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  535. # [22:36] <Hixie> nthat works :-)
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  542. # [23:06] <jgraham> Hixie: Patches welcome :)
  543. # [23:09] * Joins: webben_ (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com)
  544. # [23:12] <jgraham> (I did start working on a C implementation btw, but work on that has totally stalled)
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  547. # [23:29] <annevk> does Mozilla do full MathML or just presentational MathML?
  548. # [23:31] <Hixie> p
  549. # [23:31] <annevk> right, that's what I thought
  550. # [23:31] <Pavlov> not sure, lots of mathml work has been going on lately
  551. # [23:31] <Pavlov> but not sure to what extent
  552. # [23:32] <annevk> I don't get the comments about "full MathML" and all then referring to Mozilla
  553. # [23:32] <annevk> Pavlov, fixing the breakage? :)
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  555. # [23:32] <Pavlov> annevk: certain some of it, but fixing a lot of of things beyond that as i understand it
  556. # [23:32] <Pavlov> "full mathml" probably ~= "enough mathml to do what I want"
  557. # [23:35] * Quits: met_ (n=Hassman@r5bx220.net.upc.cz) ("Chemists never die, they just stop reacting.")
  558. # [23:43] <Hixie> i really don't see a way to go foward with the math stuff
  559. # [23:44] <othermaciej> math markup seems like a messy situation
  560. # [23:44] <Pavlov> it is
  561. # [23:44] <hsivonen> Hixie: why not. all we need is a new insertion mode that triggers on <math>
  562. # [23:44] <othermaciej> MathML seems painful as a direct authoring format
  563. # [23:44] <Hixie> hsivonen: new insertion modes don't work
  564. # [23:44] <hsivonen> Hixie: getting the mess into <math> is left to iTeX4MML, TeX4HT, OpenOffice.org 4, etc.
  565. # [23:44] <othermaciej> but majorly diverging from it on surface syntax also seems problematic
  566. # [23:45] <Hixie> hsivonen: "the tools will save us"?
  567. # [23:45] <hsivonen> Hixie: yes
  568. # [23:45] <roc_> we only do pres. mathML
  569. # [23:45] * roc_ is now known as roc
  570. # [23:46] <Hixie> hsivonen: they won't :-)
  571. # [23:46] <hsivonen> Hixie: as for Content MathML, I'd allow it when Presentation MathML is there
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  573. # [23:46] <hsivonen> Hixie: clipboard export of Content MathML is low-cost for browsers
  574. # [23:46] <Hixie> hsivonen: having two formats doesn't work either, you know that
  575. # [23:46] <annevk> if nobody supports content MathML why support it
  576. # [23:47] <Hixie> also very few authors seem to actually provide it
  577. # [23:47] <hsivonen> Hixie: so in case Wolfram and Waterloo come up with something wonderful, we wouldn't prevent them
  578. # [23:47] <Hixie> hsivonen: there's no way we're including redundant markup.
  579. # [23:47] <Hixie> hsivonen: that's a known anti-pattern.
  580. # [23:47] <hsivonen> Hixie: I think browsers, Google and most authors will only care about Presentation MathML
  581. # [23:48] <hsivonen> Hixie: ok.
  582. # [23:48] <hsivonen> Hixie: how do you prevent it without putting traps in the tree builder on purpose?
  583. # [23:48] <Hixie> hsivonen: we have to hardcode all the tag names anyway, it won't work unless we explicitly allow it
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  585. # [23:49] <hsivonen> Hixie: why can't you scope on <math>?
  586. # [23:49] <Hixie> hsivonen: because there are documents that have <math> tags in them today where those tags are just ignored
  587. # [23:50] <hsivonen> Hixie: are those docs for IE and Google misdiagnoses them?
  588. # [23:50] <Hixie> hsivonen: and if we switch insertion modes and do something dramatically different to today until </math>, those pages will break
  589. # [23:50] <hsivonen> :-(
  590. # [23:50] <Hixie> hsivonen: some surely are, but there's all kinds of crap out on the web
  591. # [23:51] <Hixie> sam's forwarding of jacque
  592. # [23:51] <Hixie> 's comments was very useful
  593. # [23:52] <annevk> if pages have <math> doing special parsing inside <math> based on punctation and numbers won't work either
  594. # [23:52] <Hixie> annevk: adding <mo>, <mi>, and <mn> elements won't affect most pages
  595. # [23:53] <Hixie> annevk: it would only affect pages that did really weird things with script and/or css
  596. # [23:54] <hsivonen> http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/woolf?entry=secure_mashups_with_smash?ca=drs-bl
  597. # [23:54] <hsivonen> is that for real with existing browser implementations?
  598. # [23:55] * Quits: xShad0w_ (n=xShad0w@pool-72-83-145-52.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
  599. # [23:56] <annevk> Hixie, true
  600. # [23:57] <hsivonen> Is Raman disagreeing with something I didn't actually say or is he making a more general point about TeX and role=math?
  601. # Session Close: Tue Apr 01 00:00:00 2008

The end :)