/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-04-02 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Apr 02 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  8. # [00:30] <Hixie> btw, for whoever it was who was asking about how the proposal that involved xmlns="" attributes would work in IE8, i haven't been able to get IE8 to do anything like what microsoft says it does
  9. # [00:31] * Philip` hasn't either
  10. # [00:31] <Hixie> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/ie8.html - paste in some mathml, the DOM doesn't look anything like it was handled by xml
  11. # [00:31] <Hixie> so i think it's a non-isse
  12. # [00:32] <Hixie> anyway. bll
  13. # [00:32] <Hixie> bbl too.
  14. # [00:32] <Philip`> Sounds like it's a feature that just didn't make it into beta 1
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  36. # [01:49] <annevk> hmm, https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/942/
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  39. # [01:51] <andersca_> Hixie: got a q about the ApplicationCache interface
  40. # [01:52] <Hixie> shot
  41. # [01:52] <Hixie> shoot even
  42. # [01:52] <andersca_> about the item method
  43. # [01:52] <andersca_> "The item(index) method must return the dynamic entries with index index from the application cache, if one is associated with the ApplicationCache object."
  44. # [01:52] <andersca_> what does it return? the URL?
  45. # [01:52] * andersca_ is now known as andersca
  46. # [01:53] <Hixie> please hold
  47. # [01:53] * andersca holds
  48. # [01:54] <Hixie> yeah, url. that's not clear. send mail?
  49. # [01:57] <andersca> will do
  50. # [01:57] <andersca> Hixie: thanks!
  51. # [01:57] <andersca> Hixie: I was pretty sure that it was URL but I figured it never hurts if the spec is clear on what it is >(
  52. # [01:57] <andersca> :) even
  53. # [01:58] <Hixie> yeah
  54. # [01:58] <Hixie> i dunno why i left it so vague
  55. # [01:58] <Hixie> that's terrible
  56. # [01:58] <Hixie> i guess it is just a first draft :-)
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  58. # [02:00] <annevk> hmm, someone needs to repost the "cookie" issue indeed
  59. # [02:00] * annevk thought it was a non-issue
  60. # [02:01] * Parts: annevk (n=annevk@198.36.194.3)
  61. # [02:01] <Hixie> i don't understand what the issue _is_ exactly
  62. # [02:01] <Hixie> though i agree there's an issue
  63. # [02:02] <Hixie> without really understanding what the issue is, though, i can't easily fix the spec
  64. # [02:02] <Hixie> or rather, propose fixes to the spec, since i'm not the editor of that one :-)
  65. # [02:05] <othermaciej_> I think the issue is fear
  66. # [02:05] <othermaciej_> and I am not saying that to be demeaning
  67. # [02:05] <othermaciej_> fear when exposing new network capabilities to web content is very healthy
  68. # [02:05] <Hixie> i don't exactly understand the fear, so it's not clear to me how to resolve it
  69. # [02:06] <Hixie> it seems like there are as many reasons to send cookies as to not send cookies, and that there is fear in both directions
  70. # [02:06] <Hixie> so we need to clearly look at what the various fears _are_, and work out how to mitigate them
  71. # [02:06] <Hixie> while still addressing all the important use cases
  72. # [02:09] <othermaciej_> are some of the Mozilla people most interested in this local to the bay area? perhaps this is the sort of issue where informal chat in person + whiteboard could crystallize a lot of the issues
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  75. # [02:15] <Hixie> i'd very open to attending any meeting on a specific issue around here if someone wants to organise it
  76. # [02:16] <othermaciej> I don't know who the relevant mozilla people are
  77. # [02:16] <othermaciej> I guess I can ask sicking
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  80. # [02:28] <gavin_> othermaciej_: dveditz, jruderman, sicking at least
  81. # [02:29] <gavin_> all @mozilla.com for email (and IRC)
  82. # [02:30] <jruderman> you also want window, who i think was the one arguing most strongly for not sending cookies (or postponing support until we're more sure that it's safe)
  83. # [02:31] <jruderman> we're all local to the bay area
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  85. # [02:33] <jruderman> shaver might be interested. he's not local but he's visiting mountain view this week.
  86. # [02:35] <jruderman> window's schedule is probably the most constrained
  87. # [02:36] <othermaciej_> I'll see what I can do
  88. # [02:36] <othermaciej_> some of Apple's security guys may be interested
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  91. # [02:36] <jruderman> a guy from HP, tyler close, came to the meeting at mozilla a month or so ago
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  93. # [02:58] * Hixie finally gets around to reading the day's math stuff
  94. # [02:58] <Hixie> people seem to massively underestimate the cost of 140 new elements in the parser
  95. # [02:59] <Hixie> especially given that they want all 140 of those elements to be ignored...
  96. # [03:01] <Hixie> william's proposed syntax isn't too bad
  97. # [03:04] <Hixie> hsivonen: embedded content mathml is more like longdesc than external download links for content mathml -- those would be more like [D] links
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  126. # [05:06] <Hixie> man i wish more specs did what html5 does with having both the content model _and_ the expected parents right by the element definition
  127. # [05:06] <Hixie> trying to work out where <svg:a> is allowed is non-trivial
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  130. # [05:20] <shepazu> Hixie: it should be possible to modify this table to also show expected parents: http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-SVGMobile12-20051207/elementTable.html
  131. # [05:20] <shepazu> I can look into that if you think it would be useful
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  133. # [05:26] * Phrogz is not a fan of the way the dl/dt/dd (I assume) is used without CSS at the top of that page; Safari makes it hard to tell which descriptions go with which icons for sure.
  134. # [05:26] <Phrogz> (As a random aside.)
  135. # [05:27] <Phrogz> Suggest either dd { margin-bottom:1em } or dt { float:left; width:4em; clear:left } dd { margin-left:5em } blah blah blah
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  146. # [07:38] <Hixie> shepazu: that would be useful; do you have that for the svg1.1 elements too?
  147. # [07:39] <shepazu> Hixie: I don't recall, but if not, we could produce it for the errata, perhaps... what time frame would be useful?
  148. # [07:39] <Hixie> before friday? :-)
  149. # [07:39] <shepazu> (that is, can't promise it would be done quickly)
  150. # [07:39] <shepazu> ohhhh
  151. # [07:39] <shepazu> well..... :)
  152. # [07:39] <shepazu> I can see if we already have one
  153. # [07:39] <shepazu> I'll get back to you on that tomorrow
  154. # [07:39] <Hixie> if you don't have anything don't worry, it's not a huge deal, i can just derive it manually
  155. # [07:40] <shepazu> I agree that it should be done
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  157. # [07:40] <shepazu> that would be very handy for authors
  158. # [07:40] <Hixie> yeah
  159. # [07:40] <Hixie> makes it much easier to walk up and down the schema while reading the spec
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  180. # [09:45] <hsivonen> Hixie: better wish that content model and expected parent are reciprocal in the spec... I've read one where they weren't
  181. # [09:46] <Hixie> uh
  182. # [09:46] <Hixie> that would be exciting
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  207. # [12:50] <annevk> ~/
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  218. # [13:35] <hsivonen> hmm. I have some weird reset insertion mode code for th and td
  219. # [13:35] <hsivonen> that makes a test fail
  220. # [13:35] <hsivonen> but that code cannot be there by accident
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  222. # [13:39] <hsivonen> ok, I'm just impementing the spec...
  223. # [13:41] <hsivonen> Why does this:
  224. # [13:41] <hsivonen> #data
  225. # [13:41] <hsivonen> </table></tbody></tfoot></thead></tr><div>
  226. # [13:41] <hsivonen> #document-fragment
  227. # [13:41] <hsivonen> td
  228. # [13:41] <hsivonen> expect this
  229. # [13:41] <hsivonen> #document
  230. # [13:41] <hsivonen> | <div>
  231. # [13:41] <hsivonen> Given step #3 in "reset the insertion mode"?
  232. # [13:42] <hsivonen> step 3 being If node is the first node in the stack of open elements, then set last to true; if, in addition, the context element of the HTML fragment parsing algorithm is neither a td element nor a th element, then set node to the context element.
  233. # [13:47] <hsivonen> svn blame blames ryansking
  234. # [13:47] <annevk> what else would make sense?
  235. # [13:48] <annevk> (i haven't tried reading the spec for this though)
  236. # [13:48] <hsivonen> | <head>
  237. # [13:48] <hsivonen> | <body>
  238. # [13:48] <hsivonen> | <div>
  239. # [13:48] <hsivonen> per spec
  240. # [13:48] <hsivonen> not necessarily making sense, though
  241. # [13:49] <hsivonen> but step 3 in the spec sure look deliberate
  242. # [13:49] <hsivonen> looks
  243. # [13:49] <annevk> isn't there some rule that scopes it to <body>?
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  245. # [13:50] <hsivonen> step 15?
  246. # [13:53] <hsivonen> looks like I'm missing the 'last' flag
  247. # [13:55] <hsivonen> hmm. nope, step 15 is not it
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  252. # [14:08] <annevk> i'll take a look
  253. # [14:08] <annevk> having said that, i'm jetlagged
  254. # [14:10] <annevk> hsivonen, so it seems that from step 3 you end up at step 5
  255. # [14:12] <hsivonen> annevk: nope. 'node' is "html" at step 5
  256. # [14:13] <hsivonen> because it specifically did *not* get set to "td" in step 3
  257. # [14:16] <annevk> hmm, yeah, weird
  258. # [14:16] <virtuelv> hmph
  259. # [14:16] <virtuelv> ISO approved OOXML </offtopic>
  260. # [14:17] <annevk> yeah...
  261. # [14:19] <hsivonen> the OOXML "process" stinks
  262. # [14:19] <hsivonen> pretending that it is a voting process and then carrying it out like that sucks
  263. # [14:20] <hsivonen> also, the technical correction process was a bad joke
  264. # [14:20] <hsivonen> because it's unreasonable to try to fix a spec of that size at that point with that schedule
  265. # [14:21] <hsivonen> and it's also unreasonable to ask the whole world to engage in barn-raising and fixing the spec
  266. # [14:23] <virtuelv> personally, I see this as yet another nail in the coffin for desktop-centric document formats
  267. # [14:23] <hsivonen> personally, I'd prefer ODF rewritten in the "5" style with proper processing requirements
  268. # [14:24] <virtuelv> why not HTML instead?
  269. # [14:24] <hsivonen> I wouldn't be surprised if ODF5 would be the size of OOXML or larger
  270. # [14:24] <hsivonen> in pages
  271. # [14:25] <hsivonen> virtuelv: HTML has a different level of abstraction compared to a spreadsheet
  272. # [14:25] <hsivonen> virtuelv: so supporting spreadsheet round-tripping would invoke things that Hixie thinks are anti-patterns
  273. # [14:26] <virtuelv> yes, but for presentations and text-like documents, plain HTML suffices
  274. # [14:26] <virtuelv> my point is still that I think these should be transparent web formats
  275. # [14:27] <webben> well ODF could be served over the web
  276. # [14:27] <webben> it's just another format
  277. # [14:27] <webben> IIRC there is or was a Firefox addon to read ODF.
  278. # [14:27] <webben> https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/1888
  279. # [14:27] <hsivonen> webben: ODF is not streamable over HTTP
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  281. # [14:27] <webben> hsivonen: You mean no progressive load?
  282. # [14:28] <hsivonen> webben: yes
  283. # [14:28] <webben> Well, progressive load is a nice to have. Not sure it's crucial though.
  284. # [14:29] <hsivonen> virtuelv: HTML plus CSS is too powerful for general import into the Word/PowerPoint UI paradigms
  285. # [14:29] <hsivonen> virtuelv: so you'd need to have a profile
  286. # [14:29] <hsivonen> and profiles suck, too
  287. # [14:30] <hsivonen> there are lots and lots of abstraction level mismatches both ways between HTML+CSS and the de facto office suite feature set
  288. # [14:37] <Dashiva> virtuelv: Better get started on ISO5
  289. # [14:38] <virtuelv> well, I no longer regard (and again, highly personal opinion) ISO as a standards body
  290. # [14:39] <Dashiva> When even China manages to get the no vote right, it's quite embarrassing for Norway
  291. # [15:06] * Joins: takkaria (n=takkaria@isparp.co.uk)
  292. # [15:07] <hsivonen> the whole idea of countries voting makes no sense when the Finnish subsidiaries of IBM, MS and Google are taken as Finnish companies
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  306. # [15:54] <zcorpan> would it be possible to hardcode the html tag names as "not the mathml namespace" within <math> and every other tag would be "unknown-in-mathml-namespace"?
  307. # [15:55] <zcorpan> also, i think making /> self-close is needed for copy-pasting svg into text/html
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  309. # [15:56] <zcorpan> because, e.g., a <circle> can have contents
  310. # [15:57] <zcorpan> i'd also like to look at actual pages that have <math> or <svg> with non-mathml or non-svg tags in them
  311. # [15:57] <zcorpan> otherwise i'm not convinced that scoping doesn't work :P
  312. # [15:57] <hsivonen> zcorpan: putting random junk in the MathML namespace without a <math> parent seems like a bad idea on the face of it
  313. # [15:58] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i meant withing <math>
  314. # [15:58] <hsivonen> I'm not convinced that scoping doesn't work, either
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  316. # [15:58] <zcorpan> i.e. <math><foo><table> -> <m:math><m:foo><html:table>
  317. # [15:58] <zcorpan> Hixie: ^
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  319. # [16:01] <Dashiva> hsivonen: That algorithm you posted has a break in the middle of the outer loop. Doesn't seem right.
  320. # [16:03] <hsivonen> Dashiva: oops.
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  330. # [16:35] <hsivonen> http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/04/new-paths-in-standardization.html
  331. # [16:37] * Joins: drry (n=drry@mb32.opt2.point.ne.jp)
  332. # [16:43] <hsivonen> http://sqweek.dnsdojo.org/language-evolution.jpg
  333. # [16:45] <Lachy> I thought ISO 29500 was Microsoft's OOXML. Is VML included as part of that?
  334. # [16:46] <hsivonen> Lachy: yes
  335. # [16:47] <hsivonen> it includes a replacement for MathML as well
  336. # [16:47] <Lachy> ok, wow. I never thought IE would be first to support a standard. Oh, well, congratulations to the IE team :-)
  337. # [16:48] <Lachy> ah, excellent. Reinventing things is always a good idea
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  339. # [16:48] <Lachy> </sarcasm>
  340. # [16:53] * hsivonen wonders if Det Norske Veritas or somesuch sells OOXML conformance certificates
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  351. # [17:55] * gsnedders finds bizarre python behaviour
  352. # [17:57] <gsnedders> was IE not the first browser to have any CSS support, FWIW?
  353. # [17:57] <gsnedders> (re what Lachy was saying)
  354. # [17:57] <gsnedders> http://pastebin.ca/967662
  355. # [18:03] <webben_> gsnedders: Which one was first perhaps depends on how narrowly you define "CSS", but according to this Arena was first: http://virtuelvis.com/archives/2005/01/css-history
  356. # [18:04] <webben_> http://www.w3.org/Arena/0.98
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  360. # [18:26] <hasather> gsnedders: The \fffd's seems to be the source of that bug
  361. # [18:27] <hasather> ... or maybe not
  362. # [18:42] <annevk> hmm, changing the way unknown elements are parsed seems dangerous
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  367. # [18:53] <gsnedders> hasather: on the fact of it, they are
  368. # [18:53] <gsnedders> hasather: but playing around with it makes me think otherwise
  369. # [18:53] <gsnedders> hasather: it's odd™
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  373. # [19:19] <toruvinn> hi there.
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  383. # [19:37] * gsnedders makes his one and only post regarding video for this month
  384. # [19:39] <hsivonen> hmm. action in the Forms TF
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  400. # [20:56] <Hixie> wow
  401. # [20:56] <Hixie> well
  402. # [20:56] <Hixie> that's pretty clear cut
  403. # [20:58] <andersca> hey Hixie
  404. # [20:58] <Hixie> 200000 files with presentational mathml; 5000 with content mathml; 3000 with both. (out of about 7 billion files of all types)
  405. # [20:58] <Hixie> crap, late for meeting.
  406. # [20:58] <Hixie> bbl.
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  411. # [21:15] <toruvinn> phew, i'm back. i've got a question for you guys about a correct browser's behaviour with canvas. let's assume a canvas with width/height set to 50, and canvas.style.width/height set to 100px. obviously the image gets resized. now what happens with pixel-manipulating methods, should they use .style coordinates or (more likely) canvas' .width and .height? also, if they use direct (as in non-CSS) properties, how should onmousemove/click (and
  412. # [21:16] <Philip`> toruvinn: Your message got cut off after "onmousemove/click (and"
  413. # [21:17] <toruvinn> how should onmousemove/click (and other events) behave?
  414. # [21:17] <toruvinn> (Philip`, thanks)
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  419. # [21:17] <toruvinn> should the events be launched on a 100x100px square, or the 50x50px (canvas' dimensions) square?
  420. # [21:18] <Philip`> Things like get/putImageData always use the canvas coordinate space, i.e. just depend on the <canvas width height> size and not be affected by CSS at all
  421. # [21:19] <Philip`> (Insert grammar as needed)
  422. # [21:19] <toruvinn> cause currently i have a little problem in opera, when the canvas' style/non-style dimensions differ, the events are fired for whatever the browser displays (that is, streched image), but it can't really get the pixel colour under the cursor (it's outside canvas)
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  424. # [21:19] <toruvinn> so, is it up to the user agent or up to the website's JS code to recalculate the coordinates?
  425. # [21:20] <toruvinn> i tried to find the relevant information in HTML5 specs, unfortunately with no luck.
  426. # [21:20] <Philip`> I would expect mouse events to just depend on the CSS-rendered rectangle size, and not have any special cases for resized canvases (or imgs or etc), though I don't know if/where this is all defined
  427. # [21:21] <virtuelv> toruvinn: I would say that the behaviour you're describing sounds like the correct way
  428. # [21:21] <Philip`> although from what I've seen in practice, mouse coordinates are completely messed up and it's impossible to write a single piece of code that will work in two or more browsers :-/
  429. # [21:21] <toruvinn> Philip`, currently opera's beta fires the events for the CSS-rectangle (quite correct imo), but trying to work on the image around the event's .offsetX/.offsetY is confusing.
  430. # [21:22] <virtuelv> toruvinn: you need to use a correction factor if your css dimensions differ from canvas dimensions
  431. # [21:22] <toruvinn> i'd really have to recalculate (scale) the offsets to get the proper pixel coordinates
  432. # [21:22] <virtuelv> or just never ever set a different css size
  433. # [21:22] <toruvinn> virtuelv, ah, so it's up to the webmaster's JS.
  434. # [21:22] <toruvinn> ok, i guess opera behaves correctly in that case. ;-)
  435. # [21:23] <toruvinn> thanks a lot!
  436. # [21:23] <virtuelv> toruvinn: I really can't say I can find another _sane_ way to do it
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  438. # [21:23] <virtuelv> if there needs to be rounding going on, you can just as well do it in JS, as the browser trying to do it
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  443. # [21:25] <toruvinn> mhm. thanks!
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  457. # [22:43] <Dashiva> liorean's <a> parsing smells like SGML
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  461. # [22:59] <hasather_> Dashiva: yea, but he got it wrong
  462. # [23:02] * Quits: davidb (n=davidb@142.150.154.101)
  463. # [23:05] <jgraham_> <uncharitable>2004 called, it wants it's HTML-as-SGML discussion back</>
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  466. # [23:11] <Dashiva> Them's fighting words
  467. # [23:12] <Dashiva> The video thing also looks like it's trying to resurface...
  468. # [23:20] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@ertnet1.demon.co.uk) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  469. # [23:21] <mitsuhiko> the xhtml as html compatibility plan was the most ridiculous idea ever
  470. # [23:21] <mitsuhiko> now browser vendors cannot implement either of it :)
  471. # [23:22] * hsivonen has made way too many email edit errors today. time to go to bed
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  475. # [23:38] <gsnedders> Dashiva: forgive me for replying
  476. # [23:39] <Dashiva> I'm in no position to pass judgement, I just comment :)
  477. # [23:39] <gsnedders> I try not to reply :P
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The end :)