/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-04-04 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Apr 04 00:00:01 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:02] * Quits: met_ (n=Hassman@r5bx220.net.upc.cz) ("Chemists never die, they just stop reacting.")
  4. # [00:06] <hsivonen> what are the different expectations?
  5. # [00:08] <Hixie> hsivonen: i read the schema and compared it to the spec
  6. # [00:08] <hsivonen> Hixie: ok
  7. # [00:08] <Hixie> also, the dtd mentions that it has two modes
  8. # [00:08] <Hixie> search for "strict" in the dtd
  9. # [00:10] <hsivonen> thanks
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  14. # [00:24] <jgraham> bzed: I fixed the major issue but there are some minor things till to be done
  15. # [00:25] <jgraham> Which I had sort of forgotten about...
  16. # [00:25] * jgraham has been quite busy
  17. # [00:26] <BenMillard> annevk, I guess he thought I was asking "why don't Member groups work like Public groups" when I was trying to ask "have you considered making PFWG a Public group?"
  18. # [00:27] <annevk> oh
  19. # [00:27] <annevk> maybe clarify then...
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  21. # [00:28] <Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg-comments/2008AprJun/0004.html
  22. # [00:29] * Parts: hasather_ (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  23. # [00:30] <jgraham> Hixie: Haven't MathML and SVG been developed largely in Member space
  24. # [00:30] <Hixie> yes
  25. # [00:30] <Hixie> and we're not adopting them
  26. # [00:30] <Hixie> we're just pointing to them
  27. # [00:31] <Hixie> the part we're adopting is being developed openly
  28. # [00:31] <jgraham> the distinction seems subtle to me
  29. # [00:31] <jgraham> but since I agree with your desire for aria to be open...
  30. # [00:31] <annevk> it'd be the same for ARIA more or less
  31. # [00:31] <Hixie> the distinction is who is responsible for the conformance criteria
  32. # [00:31] <BenMillard> annevk, I already replied to him
  33. # [00:31] <Hixie> if we end up specifying aria in html5, then i am
  34. # [00:32] <annevk> I thought we'd just give all aria-* attributs and role to the ARIA people
  35. # [00:32] <jgraham> The fact that you can't even subscribe to public-pfwg-comments is slightly insane
  36. # [00:32] <annevk> it is, yes
  37. # [00:33] <BenMillard> Cooper's e-mail to me seems to suggest WAI-Xteh is the list for discussion
  38. # [00:33] <Hixie> annevk: i don't think they've shown an ability to define them well enough for that
  39. # [00:34] <annevk> compare with SVG
  40. # [00:35] <Hixie> i want to redefine svg too
  41. # [00:35] <Hixie> i just don't have the time
  42. # [00:36] <annevk> (fwiw, i applaud you for prioritizing and simply not taking on work all the time)
  43. # [00:37] <Hixie> heh
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  45. # [00:39] <BenMillard> +1
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  49. # [00:43] <heycam> hi roc?
  50. # [00:43] <roc> hello
  51. # [00:44] <heycam> hey. i see you'll be coming to monash next week!
  52. # [00:44] <roc> yep!
  53. # [00:44] <bzed> jgraham: wha tdo you think when all will be fixed?
  54. # [00:44] <heycam> nice. look forward to meeting you there...
  55. # [00:45] <roc> I should have plenty of time to talk if there's something you want to talk about
  56. # [00:45] <roc> Australian universities tend not to pack visitor schedules as much as other places, for better or worse
  57. # [00:45] <heycam> :)
  58. # [00:45] <heycam> nothing in particular, but i always like putting faces to names
  59. # [00:49] <jgraham> bzed: I'll make sure it gets done at the weekend
  60. # [00:49] <Hixie> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/New_Vocabularies is now updated to take into account the new proposla
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  62. # [00:54] <jgraham> annevk, Hixie: Seriously, the aria spec barely specifies anything at all atm
  63. # [00:55] <Hixie> like i said
  64. # [00:55] <Hixie> :-)
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  66. # [00:58] <hober> Does anyone know what "on the glass" means?
  67. # [00:59] <annevk> Hixie, the implicit MathML stuff is not going to work?
  68. # [01:00] <annevk> why was optional end tags rejected?
  69. # [01:04] <bzed> jgraham: great, thanks a lot. we have a debian bug squashing party at the weekend, so I'll have the time to update the package during that :) just ping me if I can test anything or help you
  70. # [01:04] <jgraham> bzed: great
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  86. # [02:02] <Hixie> annevk: http://wiki.whatwg.org/index.php?title=New_Vocabularies_Solution&oldid=3045
  87. # [02:02] <Hixie> annevk: it became ridiculously complicated
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  89. # [02:04] <annevk> hmm, too bad
  90. # [02:05] <Hixie> yeah
  91. # [02:05] <annevk> though what I see there doesn't look too complicated...
  92. # [02:05] <annevk> but I suppose that's not the complete thing?
  93. # [02:07] <Hixie> not even close
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  100. # [02:44] <Hixie> holy crap, that spec up the parsing of that 30MB file from ome 96+ minutes to about a second
  101. # [02:44] <Hixie> ("that" being implementing the table tainting part of the spec)
  102. # [02:44] * Philip` wonders if that sentence was missing a verb
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  104. # [02:45] <Dashiva> s/spec/sped/ I'm guessing
  105. # [02:46] <Philip`> Ah, that makes more sense
  106. # [02:46] <Hixie> er yes
  107. # [02:46] <Hixie> my bad
  108. # [02:46] <Hixie> and /ome//
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  114. # [03:22] <Hixie> how in god's name are we going to catch when a slash is a permitted slash or not
  115. # [03:22] <Hixie> sheesh
  116. # [03:23] <Philip`> Just permit them all
  117. # [03:23] <Hixie> even those that don't make the element self-close?
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  119. # [03:23] <Hixie> i think that'd be confusing
  120. # [03:24] <Philip`> Forbidding something won't make authors stop getting confused when they do it
  121. # [03:24] <Hixie> sure
  122. # [03:25] <Hixie> but i think the validator saying that <p/><math><mrow/><mo/></math></p> is ok, when the / only worked on the two elements inside the <math>, is more confusing than necessary
  123. # [03:26] <Hixie> we're going to have to move the handling of the / into the tree construction, but i don't know when to flag the error...
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  133. # [04:05] <Hixie> what should the DOM look like for:
  134. # [04:05] <Hixie> <math><![CDATA[A]]><mtext><![CDATA[B]]><span><![CDATA[C]]>
  135. # [04:08] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/mid/6A72EDA8-3556-4CAE-8810-35A6A95A33CB@webkit.org is awesome
  136. # [04:09] <Hixie> i hope that level of detail makes it into the spec
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  141. # [04:44] <MrMiyagi> quick question about the doctype --- if it's just <!DOCTYPE HTML>, how will you be able to tell HTML 5 pages from HTML 6?
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  144. # [04:55] <jwalden> forward compatibility for the win
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  156. # [06:25] <Hixie> MrMiyagi: you don't need to
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  162. # [06:52] <jwalden> hadn't noticed that before
  163. # [06:52] <jwalden> er, wrong channel
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  167. # [07:10] <Hixie> <![CDATA[Z]]><math><![CDATA[A]]><mtext><![CDATA[B]]><span><![CDATA[C]]>
  168. # [07:14] <Hixie> i think we want <!--[CDATA[Z]]--><math>A<mtext><!--[CDATA[B]]--><span><!--[CDATA[C]]-->
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  190. # [09:25] <MikeSmith> Hixie - "Error loading the folder list: Internal Server Error. Let Hixie know."
  191. # [09:25] <MikeSmith> from http://www.whatwg.org/issues/
  192. # [09:28] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: works on reload
  193. # [09:29] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: at least the whatwg wiki gives error 500 at random
  194. # [09:29] <hsivonen> dreamhost problem, I presume
  195. # [09:29] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - k
  196. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - btw, you much familiar with the client-side name/value storage part of the HTML5 spec?
  197. # [09:34] <MikeSmith> which is I guess Sunava and others mean when they say "HTML5 DOM Store"
  198. # [09:35] <MikeSmith> I'm trying to get a read on if/how substantial Sunava's feedback on it might be
  199. # [09:35] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-comments/2008Mar/0015.html
  200. # [09:35] <MikeSmith> noticing that Hixie nor nobody else responded to that yet
  201. # [09:37] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I'm no properly familiar with that part
  202. # [09:38] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the asynchronous part is substantial
  203. # [09:39] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - so would be good to get some implementor response about it
  204. # [09:40] <MikeSmith> annotation indicates it's been partially implemented in Mozilla
  205. # [09:40] <MikeSmith> gavin - any clues on who implemented the client-side name/value storage stuff on Mozilla?
  206. # [09:49] <jwalden> oh, yuck
  207. # [09:49] <jwalden> <Open Issue> We currently return bytes but perhaps returning the number of characters is more useful? We'd love to hear thoughts here...
  208. # [09:49] <jwalden> this is just ugh no matter which way you split it
  209. # [09:50] <jwalden> "You shall not crucify the DOM upon a cross of UCS-2"
  210. # [09:50] <jwalden> or ES4, whichever
  211. # [09:51] * jwalden wonders if he's going to get sucked into yet another list if he wants to give feedback on that message
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  213. # [09:52] <hsivonen> jwalden: the comment list has been pretty low in traffic
  214. # [09:53] <jwalden> oh, it's not the other one
  215. # [09:53] <hsivonen> jwalden: DanC has requested that replies carry a disclaimer that it isn't a WG response, fwiw
  216. # [09:54] <jwalden> weird, but okay if I do actually respond
  217. # [09:54] <jwalden> ish, that is
  218. # [09:54] <Lachy> Hixie, in this proposed solution, it's not clear whether /> would apply to all elements including existing non-empty HTML elements, or just to new SVG/MathML elements. http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/New_Vocabularies_Solution
  219. # [09:54] <MikeSmith> jwalden - would be good if you could respond
  220. # [09:55] <MikeSmith> that's the public comments list, so anybody can subscribe
  221. # [09:55] <hsivonen> [as noted here yesterday, being a public comment list doesn't necessarily allow subscription even though this one does]
  222. # [09:56] <MikeSmith> not sure if you need to put any disclaimer, if you're not a member of the HTML WG
  223. # [09:56] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - dinnet know that
  224. # [09:56] <MikeSmith> I wonder what the hell kind of sense it makes to not allow subscription to a public comment list..
  225. # [09:57] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I don't know, but public-pfwg-comments doesn't allow subscription on the grounds that it isn't mean for discussion
  226. # [09:57] <hsivonen> s/mean/meant/
  227. # [09:58] <jwalden> hm, this is poor -- mbox link on http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-comments/ requires username/password
  228. # [09:58] <MikeSmith> jwalden - maybe I can fix that
  229. # [09:58] <MikeSmith> maybe
  230. # [09:58] * MikeSmith goes off to check know
  231. # [09:58] <MikeSmith> now
  232. # [09:58] <jwalden> I just want the single storage email so I can get the references chain correct
  233. # [09:59] <MikeSmith> jwalden - I might be able to bounce it to you
  234. # [09:59] <jwalden> jwalden at mit dot edu works
  235. # [09:59] <MikeSmith> if you let me know what address to bounce it to
  236. # [09:59] <MikeSmith> OK
  237. # [10:00] <MikeSmith> OK, just attempted to bounce it to you
  238. # [10:02] <jwalden> that seems to have worked, thanks!
  239. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> cool
  240. # [10:04] * Quits: MacDome (n=eric@c-24-130-11-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  241. # [10:09] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  242. # [10:10] <MikeSmith> jwalden - I'm told that perms on the mbox files set to require W3C user/password access as a means to protect against spammers using them to harvest addresses
  243. # [10:10] <jwalden> ah
  244. # [10:11] <jwalden> captcha or something would be cool, or even a contact form or something to request it
  245. # [10:11] <MikeSmith> fwiw, i think you can get a W3C account without necessarily needing to join any particular WGs
  246. # [10:11] <MikeSmith> jwalden - true
  247. # [10:13] <hsivonen> hmm. my implementation for "An end tag token not covered by the previous entries " in "in body" is wrong, and I don't know if I've missed a spec change
  248. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - this presents any interesting use case for "how do I figure out what revision to the HTML5 spec might have affected my implementation"..
  249. # [10:17] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I keep around a diffable Lynx dump of the tokenization and tree construction sections
  250. # [10:17] <hsivonen> taken at times when I think I'm in sync
  251. # [10:17] <hsivonen> but it turns out that the approach breaks when I reinstall Lynx and get subtly different line breaking
  252. # [10:23] <hsivonen> hmm. I had failed to put "html" on the scoping list
  253. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - would be nice to have some kind of way to do "svn blame" or equivalent
  254. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> I think I remember the problem with that being that Dreamhost provides only ssh access to their Subversion
  255. # [10:25] <MikeSmith> no anonymous access
  256. # [10:26] <MikeSmith> I guess there is the dev.w3.org cvs mirror, though
  257. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> so could do cvs annotate on that
  258. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> which I realize is useful only to the degree that any annotate/blame record is actually useful
  259. # [10:28] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-67-160-251-228.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  260. # [10:35] * Quits: roc (n=roc@203.35.201.119)
  261. # [10:38] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: actually, the whatwg svn repo does allow anonymous access
  262. # [10:38] <MikeSmith> oh
  263. # [10:38] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I have a script (based on anne's) that scrapes the log for Hixies annotations and posts bugs in bugzilla.validator.nu as needed
  264. # [10:39] <MikeSmith> ah, great
  265. # [10:39] <hsivonen> anyway, in this case, the end tag handling as such wasn't the problem
  266. # [10:39] <hsivonen> the spec just looks different from my code there (sent email)
  267. # [10:40] * MikeSmith reads hsivonen message now
  268. # [10:40] <hsivonen> but I didn't have "html" as scoping so the algorithm tried to pop root
  269. # [10:40] * Joins: roc (n=roc@203.35.201.119)
  270. # [10:43] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-bcf85987033229d6)
  271. # [10:44] <Hixie> Lachy: reall? i tried to clarify that recently
  272. # [10:45] <jwalden> man, the more I think about it, the more remainingSpace seems like a rabbit hole
  273. # [10:45] <jwalden> a pity; it seems useful, too
  274. # [10:45] <Hixie> i couldn't work out how to spec it
  275. # [10:45] <Hixie> does it include overheard?
  276. # [10:45] <Hixie> overhead, even
  277. # [10:46] <Hixie> how is it encoded?
  278. # [10:46] <Hixie> what if the client does some form of compression?
  279. # [10:46] <Hixie> etc
  280. # [10:46] <Hixie> it's a vendor-specific property, automatically
  281. # [10:46] <Hixie> it's the kind of thing you'd expect to see implemented by a UA trying to introduce lack of interoperability into hte platform
  282. # [10:47] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@ti200710a340-2662.bb.online.no) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  283. # [10:48] <jwalden> yeah, that about sums it up
  284. # [10:52] <Hixie> right, bed time
  285. # [10:52] <Hixie> nn
  286. # [10:53] <othermaciej> embrace, extend, ...
  287. # [10:54] <roc> I think it's a little early to judge as malicious
  288. # [10:54] <roc> people definitely want some kind of quota indicator
  289. # [10:56] <jwalden> I agree; if I or the list ever get the response I sent, I do say I only slightly lean toward not having it
  290. # [10:57] * jwalden wonders what the turnaround time is on messages on w3 mailing lists
  291. # [10:57] * jwalden wonders if this is the first time he's ever sent a message to a w3 list
  292. # [10:58] <jwalden> I know I had someone else send one for me one time, when I didn't want to subscribe to www-style just for a typo fix
  293. # [10:59] * jwalden hopes the list doesn't eat signed emails
  294. # [11:00] <jwalden> it didn't eat it enough to ask if I wanted to allow it to be web-archived, at least
  295. # [11:04] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Ex-Chat")
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  297. # [11:07] * Joins: akempgen_ (n=Alex@p5494E8CF.dip.t-dialin.net)
  298. # [11:10] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  299. # [11:10] * Joins: akempgen__ (n=Alex@p5494D4DA.dip.t-dialin.net)
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  301. # [11:14] * Quits: akempgen (n=Alex@p5494D4DA.dip.t-dialin.net) (Nick collision from services.)
  302. # [11:15] * akempgen__ is now known as akempgen
  303. # [11:17] <Lachy> Hixe, on that wiki page, it just says: "add a new tokeniser state which you go to when hitting a / instead of going to the "before attribute name state". This new state has just two exits -- one for ">", which sets a flag saying that the tag is self-closing, and one for anything else, which has a parse error and reconsumes in the "before attribute name state". "
  304. # [11:18] <Lachy> that paragraph makes no mention which tag names it applies to, nor anywhere before it
  305. # [11:18] <Lachy> *Hixie
  306. # [11:19] <jwalden> hm, is this email ever going to show up on the list or in my inbox?
  307. # [11:21] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  308. # [11:24] <Lachy> Hixie, the wiki also says to add support for all mathml entity references, but doesn't say how it will handle clashes between those and html
  309. # [11:24] <Lachy> like &phi;
  310. # [11:27] * Quits: akempgen_ (n=Alex@p5494E8CF.dip.t-dialin.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  311. # [11:36] <MikeSmith> jwalden - it should have been posted already
  312. # [11:36] <MikeSmith> I'll check into it now
  313. # [11:37] <MikeSmith> It's in the "Messages currently pending authorization in the archive approval system" moderation queue
  314. # [11:37] <jwalden> "authorization"?
  315. # [11:38] <MikeSmith> I dunno why your approval didn't stick
  316. # [11:38] <jwalden> I did give the okay to the "permission to include your message in our Web archive" email
  317. # [11:39] <roc> any CSS gurus around?
  318. # [11:39] <jwalden> indeed, revisiting the link gives the response Error: The message with id: blahblahblah has already been processed (approved).
  319. # [11:39] <jwalden> wait
  320. # [11:39] <jwalden> okay, I'm qdbing that
  321. # [11:39] * Quits: met_ (n=Hassman@r5bx220.net.upc.cz) ("Chemists never die, they just stop reacting.")
  322. # [11:39] <MikeSmith> jwalden - qdbing ?
  323. # [11:40] <MikeSmith> somebody else had this same problem a few days ago and brought to my attention
  324. # [11:40] <jwalden> http://quotes.burntelectrons.org/browse
  325. # [11:40] <MikeSmith> I don't have logs on my side to troublesheet it
  326. # [11:40] <jwalden> like bash.org, but for moz-y stuff
  327. # [11:41] <MikeSmith> ah
  328. # [11:43] <MikeSmith> jwalden - I just did the approval thing on it
  329. # [11:43] <othermaciej> although apparently #webkit is a mozilla-related channel
  330. # [11:43] <jwalden> blame jruderman I think
  331. # [11:44] <jwalden> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-comments/2008Apr/0001.html
  332. # [11:44] <jwalden> whee
  333. # [11:44] <jwalden> thanks
  334. # [11:44] <MikeSmith> jwalden - if/when you try send a reply on the thread and post another message there and it don't go thru, ping me
  335. # [11:44] <jwalden> okay
  336. # [11:45] <MikeSmith> jwalden - thanks much for taking time to read and reply to that message, btw
  337. # [11:45] <Lachy> people really need to stop putting unnecessary disclaimers at the top of posts to public-html-comments
  338. # [11:45] <jwalden> sure
  339. # [11:45] <jwalden> haha
  340. # [11:45] <jwalden> I blame this channel
  341. # [11:45] <jwalden> :-P
  342. # [11:45] <othermaciej> disclaimer: this post includes an unnecessary disclaimer
  343. # [11:45] <MikeSmith> heh
  344. # [11:48] <Lachy> Any post that doesn't start with "This is written on behalf of the HTML WG" (or similar) should be assumed to be a personal opinion
  345. # [11:48] <Lachy> therefore, no disclaimer necessary
  346. # [11:50] <Dashiva> Lachy: That's incompatible with existing content, and many user agents
  347. # [11:57] <MikeSmith> Lachy - yeah, I agree
  348. # [12:04] * othermaciej is now known as om_sleep
  349. # [12:05] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p1215-ipbf3008marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  350. # [12:08] * om_sleep is now known as om_cant_sleep
  351. # [12:09] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
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  353. # [12:16] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@guest-226.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  354. # [12:19] * om_cant_sleep is now known as othermaciej
  355. # [12:24] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@216.239.33.8) ("The computer fell asleep")
  356. # [12:33] <hsivonen> argh. I totally forgot about document.write() when pondering by proxy idea
  357. # [12:35] <hsivonen> s/by/my
  358. # [12:41] <hsivonen> Is Content-MD5
  359. # [12:41] <hsivonen> a dead letter of the HTTP spec
  360. # [12:41] <hsivonen> or actually used?
  361. # [12:43] * Quits: tommorris (n=tommorri@dyn891-224.ota.ichosted.org.uk)
  362. # [12:48] * gsnedders bursts out laughing
  363. # [12:48] <gsnedders> "It was merely a scan of a sample of seven billion pages, not a scan of the entire Web, which would be prohibitively expensive."
  364. # [12:50] <Philip`> hsivonen: http://www.fs.fed.us/database/feis/ uses Content-MD5
  365. # [12:50] <gsnedders> hsivonen: 11 out of a sample of 142236 pages
  366. # [12:51] <Philip`> (That (plus subpages) are the only ones I can see)
  367. # [12:51] <gsnedders> <http://www.united-reit.co.jp/> is the only other I found
  368. # [12:51] <gsnedders> (admittedly, I have a database which I can query this stuff out of, unlike Philip`)
  369. # [12:52] <Philip`> I have 'grep', which works just as well
  370. # [12:52] <Lachy> but does any UA actually do anything with the info, and are the MD5 sums they send accurate?
  371. # [12:52] * gsnedders doesn't have that data
  372. # [12:53] <gsnedders> Philip`: how quick is that on the 100MB file?
  373. # [12:54] <Philip`> gsnedders: It takes about 0.08 seconds
  374. # [12:55] <gsnedders> Philip`: real time or CPU time?
  375. # [12:56] <gsnedders> real 0m0.141s/user 0m0.002s/sys 0m0.004s for the query of the database (but, admittedly, it has the advantage of being able to do far more complex queries than grep can)
  376. # [12:56] <Philip`> real 0m0.089s
  377. # [12:56] <Philip`> user 0m0.059s
  378. # [12:56] <Philip`> sys 0m0.030s
  379. # [12:56] <gsnedders> yeah, that's far more expensive :P
  380. # [12:56] <Philip`> I can cope with waiting 0.08 seconds for a response
  381. # [12:57] <hsivonen> Philip`: thanks
  382. # [12:57] <hsivonen> Philip`: so if I wrote a filtering proxy for testing, MD5 wouldn't matter
  383. # [12:57] <gsnedders> I really just need something that I can have as part of a browse-able UI, and using grep there would get horrid
  384. # [12:57] * hsivonen sent mail to implementors@
  385. # [12:58] * maikmerten is now known as maik|eat
  386. # [13:02] <gsnedders> hsivonen, Lachy: From a random sample of one page, the MD5 is wrong
  387. # [13:03] <hsivonen> gsnedders: thanks
  388. # [13:04] <gsnedders> (no idea how representative that is, but it suggests that nothing checks it)
  389. # [13:05] <hsivonen> yeah. I already feel safer with cryptographic hashes protecting me against faulty proxies...
  390. # [13:06] <gsnedders> :)
  391. # [13:08] * gsnedders is looking through old photos and thought he'd worked out they were in Portugal, but there's French writing in it. Hmm.
  392. # [13:09] <gsnedders> And now it looks like Germany. This makes no sense. They are all within a week of each other.
  393. # [13:11] <hsivonen> :-( looks like the typo/grammar quality of my emails gets worse and worse when I write more and more email
  394. # [13:11] <Lachy> gsnedders, are you sure about that? According to RFC2616, the field value isn't merely an ASCII representation of the MD5 sum, it's a base64 encoded string from the binary representation
  395. # [13:11] <gsnedders> Lachy: yeah
  396. # [13:11] <gsnedders> Lachy: peh! base64 is an ASCII representation! :P
  397. # [13:12] <Lachy> yeah, but you know what I mean
  398. # [13:13] <gsnedders> Lachy: Yeah, I know. I'm just being the typical asshole I am :P
  399. # [13:16] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-bcf85987033229d6)
  400. # [13:17] <Philip`> gsnedders: From my sample of one page, the MD5 is correct
  401. # [13:17] <gsnedders> Philip`: Then we chose a different page, seeming we have the same data set :)
  402. # [13:17] <Philip`> s/one/two/
  403. # [13:18] <Philip`> http://www.united-reit.co.jp/ and http://www.fs.fed.us/database/feis/ both give the right content-md5
  404. # [13:18] <Philip`> (when calculating the 'correct' value with GET http://www.united-reit.co.jp/|perl -e'use Digest::MD5 "md5_base64"; print md5_base64 do { local $/; <> }' )
  405. # [13:21] * gsnedders realises he was using a _different_ base64 than the RFC 1764 (or whichever it is)
  406. # [13:22] <hsivonen> should I expect to be able to replace tagName getter via Node.prototype.__defineGetter__ ?
  407. # [13:23] <Philip`> hsivonen: Not in browsers that don't support __defineGetter__
  408. # [13:23] <hsivonen> moreover, how does one call the native getter from the monkey patch getter?
  409. # [13:23] <hsivonen> Philip`: which ones do?
  410. # [13:23] <Philip`> I think it's FF and Opera 9.5, or something like that
  411. # [13:23] <hsivonen> ok
  412. # [13:24] <Philip`> (Not at all sure about WebKit)
  413. # [13:25] <Lachy> hmm. I wonder why my mac doesn't include the base64 command
  414. # [13:25] <Lachy> but it has the man page for it
  415. # [13:25] <Philip`> Oh, it looks (from the source code) like WebKit does do __defineGetter__
  416. # [13:28] <hsivonen> "With Firefox 3.0, defining getter or setter on an already-defined property will throw an exception. The property has to be deleted beforehand, what is not the case for older versions of Firefox."
  417. # [13:29] <hsivonen> hmm. so how does one merely *wrap* a native getter or setter and still call the native one as part of the wrapper impl?
  418. # [13:34] * Parts: MrMiyagi (n=neatnik@unaffiliated/waxonwaxoff/x-193723)
  419. # [13:43] * Joins: akempgen_ (n=Alex@p5494CFB8.dip.t-dialin.net)
  420. # [13:47] * Quits: akempgen_ (n=Alex@p5494CFB8.dip.t-dialin.net) (Client Quit)
  421. # [13:52] * Quits: akempgen (n=Alex@p5494D4DA.dip.t-dialin.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  422. # [14:03] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  423. # [14:03] <zcorpan> hsivonen: what would the proxy do with stuff that is not convertable to xml?
  424. # [14:03] <zcorpan> like, say, <foo:bar>
  425. # [14:04] <zcorpan> or xmlns and xml:lang
  426. # [14:04] * Joins: tommorris (n=tommorri@dyn891-224.ota.ichosted.org.uk)
  427. # [14:04] <hsivonen> zcorpan: it would drop it
  428. # [14:04] <zcorpan> ok
  429. # [14:05] <hsivonen> XmlViolationPolicy.ALTER_INFOSET
  430. # [14:07] * maik|eat is now known as maikmerten
  431. # [14:08] <takkaria> hsivonen: fyi, this summer I'm hoping to get accepted to write a HTML5 parser in C and hook it up to a small web browser called NetSurf
  432. # [14:09] <takkaria> (in the google summer of code)
  433. # [14:09] * gsnedders wishes he was old enough for GSoC
  434. # [14:09] <hsivonen> takkaria: interesting. will the interface look anything like libxml2?
  435. # [14:10] <takkaria> hsivonen: the browser in question currently uses libxml2 for parsing, so I imagine it will be fairly easily switchable
  436. # [14:11] <MikeSmith> takkaria - you know jmb from Netsuf?
  437. # [14:11] <takkaria> MikeSmith: yeah :)
  438. # [14:11] <MikeSmith> yeah, dumb question I geuss
  439. # [14:12] <hsivonen> takkaria: getting HTML5 support in libxml2 would be totally awesome
  440. # [14:13] <takkaria> hsivonen: true, but it's too much of a moving target atm I think
  441. # [14:14] <takkaria> I would like hubbub (the parsing library) to have a binding to libxml so you can easily use hubbub to create a libxml tree and use its interfaces
  442. # [14:16] <takkaria> but I guess it would be nice to be able to fold it back in to libxml2 when the spec stabilises
  443. # [14:16] <takkaria> MikeSmith: you do too, I assume?
  444. # [14:17] * Joins: qwert666 (n=qwert666@day44.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)
  445. # [14:18] <MikeSmith> takkaria - nope. he used to join this channel now and then. I chatted with him a few times. I seemed to remember him having some really forward-looking plans for turning improving standards support in netsurf, but I got the impression that other maintainers weren't nearly as enthusiastic about it.
  446. # [14:18] <takkaria> MikeSmith: hm, the situation's changed a little since then it seems
  447. # [14:19] <MikeSmith> interesting
  448. # [14:19] <takkaria> everyone seems quite up for hubbub to be the parsing library
  449. # [14:20] <MikeSmith> there remains a bit of question of why put a large amount of further work into it instead of picking up Webkit
  450. # [14:21] <takkaria> well, NetSurf has its origins in a now-obscure OS called RISC OS
  451. # [14:21] <MikeSmith> yep
  452. # [14:22] <takkaria> which runs on very low-end hardware with an OS that doesn't offer virtual memory, shared libraries, or really much RAM
  453. # [14:22] <MikeSmith> but does that remain the main target platform for it?
  454. # [14:23] <takkaria> no, it's one of many targets, but the developers are very concerned to keep NS workable there
  455. # [14:23] <MikeSmith> and if so, one would wonder what kind of browsing experience could be provided in such an environment
  456. # [14:23] <MikeSmith> OK
  457. # [14:24] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-ad8afbe7669510c2)
  458. # [14:24] <takkaria> it does seem a bit masochistic, doesn't it? :)
  459. # [14:24] <MikeSmith> I should mention to you that I worked at Openwave for a few years
  460. # [14:24] <MikeSmith> where that was one of the big concerns there too
  461. # [14:24] <MikeSmith> having the same browser codebase runnable on super-low-end hardware
  462. # [14:25] * takkaria nods
  463. # [14:25] <MikeSmith> miniscule RAM, postage-stamp monochrome screens, etc.
  464. # [14:25] <takkaria> there's a couple of embedded linux distros interested in using it as a browser instead of e.g. dillo
  465. # [14:26] <MikeSmith> I think the Openwave lesson shows you can't really have it both ways
  466. # [14:26] <MikeSmith> do one or the other
  467. # [14:27] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  468. # [14:27] <MikeSmith> lesson being, either take it to the level of being a first-rate HTML+DOM+CSS+JS/XHR or decide to have it remain something for really restricted embedded cases
  469. # [14:28] <takkaria> right now it doesn't do JS and I'm not sure if there are plans to add it
  470. # [14:29] <MikeSmith> btw, after years of watching their market share disappear in this space as device capabilities got way ahead of them, Openwave announced a few days that they are end-of-lifing their browser and laying off the whole browser product-dev team
  471. # [14:29] <takkaria> mm
  472. # [14:29] <takkaria> well, I'm not really that involved with the project at large; I just know some of the devs vaguely-IRL and because I grew up using RISC OS so I still hang around of
  473. # [14:29] <MikeSmith> ok
  474. # [14:30] <takkaria> s/of/on IRC channels where ex-RISC OSy people are/
  475. # [14:30] <takkaria> I'm mainly writing an html5 parser because I want to help with the spec in the some way, and another implementation hooked up to a browser I think would be useful
  476. # [14:30] <MikeSmith> yeah, absolutely
  477. # [14:30] <takkaria> even if that browser only supports a chunk of CSS 2.1 and not any JS
  478. # [14:31] <MikeSmith> especially a C implementation at this point would be very welcome
  479. # [14:31] <MikeSmith> you will earn yourself heaps of good karma
  480. # [14:31] <takkaria> heh, I'm not so interested in the karma, but it should be interesting. :)
  481. # [14:32] <MikeSmith> fwiw, I agree with what hsivonen said about hooking into libxml2
  482. # [14:32] <annevk> roc, is that the same question you raised on www-style?
  483. # [14:32] <roc> yeah, I was just being stupid
  484. # [14:32] <roc> sorry
  485. # [14:32] <MikeSmith> given libxml2 prominence in free-software world
  486. # [14:33] <takkaria> MikeSmith: yeah. hubbub will be BSD-licenced so I don't see a problem with that
  487. # [14:33] <gsnedders> checking HTTP headers are valid is rather hard.
  488. # [14:34] <annevk> roc, will moz at some point allow positioning of the root element?
  489. # [14:34] <annevk> or am I being stupid now and you already do that?
  490. # [14:34] * annevk checks
  491. # [14:35] <roc> we don't
  492. # [14:35] <annevk> indeed, just margin
  493. # [14:35] <roc> it could be done, once we've done the work to make the initial containing block the container for abs-pos elements
  494. # [14:36] <roc> our problem is that right now only blocks and inlines can be abs-pos containers
  495. # [14:36] <annevk> i think this is related to some bug i filed in 2004/2005 :)
  496. # [14:37] <roc> huh, openwave is shutting down? I guess that's good in a way
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  500. # [14:44] <annevk> interesting
  501. # [14:48] * Joins: tndH (i=Rob@adsl-87-102-83-116.karoo.KCOM.COM)
  502. # [14:49] <MikeSmith> roc - openwave not shutting down. they're still doing OK with their server-side/gateway business
  503. # [14:49] <MikeSmith> they're just offloading the client business
  504. # [14:49] <roc> yeah sorry I meant the browser
  505. # [14:49] <MikeSmith> I heard that that client business was still doing OK
  506. # [14:50] <roc> who cares about that server stuff :-)
  507. # [14:50] <MikeSmith> heh :)
  508. # [14:50] <MikeSmith> I spent a lot of time working on some of the server stuff, so I still care about it :)
  509. # [14:50] <MikeSmith> anyway, there are a still a few very good devs left in the browser group at Openwave
  510. # [14:51] <MikeSmith> who know lots about porting on a wide variety of devices/platforms
  511. # [14:51] <MikeSmith> and all sorts of other stuff
  512. # [14:51] <roc> well then
  513. # [14:51] <MikeSmith> and they are now up for grabs
  514. # [14:51] <roc> someone should hire them
  515. # [14:51] <roc> where are they based?
  516. # [14:52] <MikeSmith> all around
  517. # [14:52] <MikeSmith> one of the is in Australia
  518. # [14:52] <MikeSmith> one of the best ones
  519. # [14:52] <roc> interesting?
  520. # [14:52] <MikeSmith> best remaining ones
  521. # [14:52] <roc> in Canberra or Melbourne perhaps? :-)
  522. # [14:52] <MikeSmith> Melbourne, I think
  523. # [14:53] <MikeSmith> I can ask him
  524. # [14:53] <roc> sure
  525. # [14:53] <MikeSmith> I'm sure Christian Sejerson knows him too
  526. # [14:53] <roc> ok
  527. # [14:54] <MikeSmith> at least one of the main devs had already left a while back and moved to work on Android
  528. # [14:54] <MikeSmith> roc - anyway, you should maybe ping Christian about it
  529. # [14:55] <roc> I'm doing that right now
  530. # [14:55] <roc> thanks for the info
  531. # [14:55] <MikeSmith> cool
  532. # [14:55] <roc> I'm going to be in Melbourne next week :-)
  533. # [15:01] * Quits: tommorris (n=tommorri@dyn891-224.ota.ichosted.org.uk)
  534. # [15:05] <hsivonen> hmm. the MathML in SVG zooming bug remains in firefox3b5: http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/blog/archives/001594.html
  535. # [15:05] * Joins: tommorris (n=tommorri@dyn891-224.ota.ichosted.org.uk)
  536. # [15:06] <roc> bug is filed, getting some attention
  537. # [15:06] <hsivonen> roc: great
  538. # [15:07] <roc> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=426980
  539. # [15:07] * MikeSmith points roc to PM
  540. # [15:09] <hsivonen> roc: thanks
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  543. # [15:31] <hsivonen> annevk: there's a tree builder test case <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN"><html></html> that doesn't follow the documented format
  544. # [15:31] <hsivonen> documentation says 'DOCTYPEs must be "<!DOCTYPE " then the name then ">". '
  545. # [15:32] <annevk> cvs blame points to me?
  546. # [15:32] <hsivonen> annevk: no, but you are here on IRC :-)
  547. # [15:33] <hsivonen> annevk: where should I look to discover html5lib's undocumented features?
  548. # [15:34] <annevk> dunno, we're the market leader when it comes to tests, we can make undocumented extensions whenever we please :p
  549. # [15:35] <annevk> hsivonen, where is that test located?
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  552. # [15:41] * annevk wonders if the issues are actually going down
  553. # [15:42] <annevk> looking at http://www.whatwg.org/issues/data.html they seem to go down a bit and then go up again quite quickly
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  556. # [15:48] <hsivonen> it seems likely that the latest upward par is all about SVG/MathML integration
  557. # [15:48] <annevk> true
  558. # [15:48] <annevk> so maybe that will all be solved plus some earlier discussion on math+svg
  559. # [15:49] <hsivonen> I didn't find your tree test serializer yet
  560. # [15:49] <annevk> oh, a serializer test
  561. # [15:50] <hsivonen> no, a tree builder test
  562. # [15:51] <hsivonen> bah. I'll send mail
  563. # [15:51] * Joins: davidb (n=davidb@bas4-toronto06-1279311156.dsl.bell.ca)
  564. # [15:52] <hsivonen> blame points to jgraham_
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  568. # [16:05] <hsivonen> It would be interesting to have a chart showing the percentage of issues that are older than duration d
  569. # [16:06] <hsivonen> one test to go <!doctype html><select><input>X
  570. # [16:09] <annevk> hmm, <!DOCTYPE|html|""|""> vs <!DOCTYPE|html||""> vs <!DOCTYPE|html|""|> vs <!DOCTYPE html>
  571. # [16:09] <annevk> replace | with " "
  572. # [16:09] <annevk> the "" can contain a string as well
  573. # [16:10] <hsivonen> annevk: what about PUBLIC?
  574. # [16:11] <hsivonen> annevk: are you talking about the test format or something else?
  575. # [16:12] <hsivonen> yay. now only the doctype test is failing
  576. # [16:12] <hsivonen> and I blame that on the test violating the format
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  581. # [16:25] <annevk> hsivonen, the output format
  582. # [16:25] <annevk> i'm not sure why public should be in there
  583. # [16:28] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  584. # [16:28] <hsivonen> annevk: It's in existing test content :-) but other than that, no reason
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  592. # [16:51] <gavin_> MikeSmith: Dave Camp, I believe
  593. # [16:51] <gavin_> (among others, but I think he did most of the work)
  594. # [16:53] <gavin_> looks like Honza Bombas is doing some work to add localStorage support in https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=422526
  595. # [16:53] <gavin_> but that's not going to make firefox 3, apparently
  596. # [16:54] <annevk> hmm :(
  597. # [16:54] <annevk> so does sessionStorage match HTML5?
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  601. # [17:12] <gavin_> annevk: I think it does
  602. # [17:13] <gavin_> but I haven't really followed it closely enough to be sure
  603. # [17:13] <gavin_> http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/DOM:Storage has some more information
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  608. # [17:35] <MikeSmith> gavin_ - thx
  609. # [17:37] * MikeSmith wonders if jwalden is still around
  610. # [17:37] <jwalden> I really shouldn't be, but I am
  611. # [17:38] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  612. # [17:39] <MikeSmith> in going through archives, I notice that Sunava also posted feedback a while back related to postMessage
  613. # [17:39] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-comments/2008Feb/0024.html
  614. # [17:39] <MikeSmith> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2008-February/014026.html
  615. # [17:39] <MikeSmith> "IE Team Feedback on HTML 5.0 Cross Document Messaging"
  616. # [17:39] <MikeSmith> if you want, I can bounce either or both of those to you
  617. # [17:39] <MikeSmith> it's the same message
  618. # [17:39] <MikeSmith> same content
  619. # [17:41] <MikeSmith> that is, if after reading through them, you find anything you feel inclined to respond to
  620. # [17:41] <jwalden> MikeSmith: I'm guessing it's the same as was sent to whatwg@
  621. # [17:41] <MikeSmith> yeah
  622. # [17:41] <jwalden> which I am on and do skim/read
  623. # [17:41] <MikeSmith> OK
  624. # [17:42] <MikeSmith> so yeah, it's the exact same content
  625. # [17:43] <MikeSmith> sunava just re-posted to public-html-comments list
  626. # [17:43] <jwalden> they didn't say a whole lot, either, really -- twiddle wording, .uri is bad, change a name for readability (but no semantic change)
  627. # [17:44] <jwalden> which seems fine enough, it's not a super-complicated thing
  628. # [17:44] <MikeSmith> OK
  629. # [17:45] <annevk> when I read that I thought the only change they wanted to make is changing the name of a parameter so that it is more clear what it does
  630. # [17:46] <MikeSmith> I see
  631. # [17:47] <jwalden> basically two spec wording changes, neither affecting what is actually implemented
  632. # [17:47] <annevk> though IE presumably will only have document.onmessage...
  633. # [17:48] * Joins: starjive (i=beos@213-66-217-32-no30.tbcn.telia.com)
  634. # [17:48] <jwalden> their docs had attachEvent("onmessage", function(e) { ... }) I think
  635. # [17:48] <MikeSmith> well, given how rarely they have actually posted any kind of substantive comments about HTML5, it seems possibly good for somebody (e.g., others who have implemented that part of the spec) to ack what they do post
  636. # [17:49] <MikeSmith> with some kind of reply
  637. # [17:49] <jwalden> perhaps
  638. # [17:49] * jwalden replies when there's something to say, generally :-)
  639. # [17:50] <MikeSmith> if just for the reason that they can't later say, "Well we took time post review comments a couple months back and they were ignored, so therefore we don't feel like we need to do it any more"
  640. # [17:52] <MikeSmith> those two messages essentially constitute the sum total of public review comments they've offered in the 1 year sinces they've been members of the WG
  641. # [17:55] <jwalden> I can dash something off later today perhaps if it's really necessary to make a mostly empty acknowledgement
  642. # [17:57] <gsnedders> Implicit LWS is horrid.
  643. # [17:57] <MikeSmith> jwalden - not sure it's necessary, but I don't think it would hurt if it's something that wouldn't take you much time
  644. # [18:03] * Quits: kfish (n=conrad@61.194.21.25) ("Pike!")
  645. # [18:04] * gsnedders wonders if you're allowed implicit LWS in HTTP-Version
  646. # [18:04] * gsnedders thinks you can
  647. # [18:04] * jwalden really thought no the last time he looked
  648. # [18:05] <gsnedders> yay. `GET / HTTP / 1 . 1`
  649. # [18:05] <jwalden> and http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla/source/netwerk/test/httpserver/httpd.js required no lws there
  650. # [18:05] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  651. # [18:05] <gsnedders> jwalden: well, there's nothing that cancels the implicit LWS for HTTP-version
  652. # [18:06] <jwalden> oh, blah, yeah, there isn't
  653. # [18:06] <gsnedders> An HTTP server in JavaScript? Now I really have seen everything.
  654. # [18:06] * gsnedders hates implicit LWS
  655. # [18:08] * gsnedders laughs
  656. # [18:08] <gsnedders> there's nothing that prohibits implicit LWS within CRLF, so effectively RFC2616 has: CRLF = CR *LWS LF
  657. # [18:11] <gsnedders> wait, is there anything that stops implicit *LWS in LWS?
  658. # [18:14] <gsnedders> RFC2616 is fun.
  659. # [18:17] <Philip`> When you say "fun", do you mean "not fun"?
  660. # [18:18] <gsnedders> Philip`: Of course not.
  661. # [18:18] <gsnedders> (When I mean "Of course"
  662. # [18:18] * gsnedders throws parse error. Expected ), got EOF.
  663. # [18:18] <gsnedders> *(When I mean, "Of course")
  664. # [18:19] <hsivonen> It is not smart to allow text prettiness in protocols that are not hand-authored
  665. # [18:19] <hsivonen> comments in MIME headers, anyone?
  666. # [18:19] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Nononono. Recursive comments in MIME headers!
  667. # [18:20] <Philip`> I hand-author HTTP
  668. # [18:20] <Philip`> print "Content-type: text/html\n\n"; # etc
  669. # [18:20] <Philip`> (Actually I haven't yet figured out whether it should be \n\n or \r\n\r\n so I pick one at random)
  670. # [18:21] <gsnedders> Philip`: That's one bit of error handling that even RFC2616 specifies!
  671. # [18:22] <jwalden> it's CRLF, but I think accepting CR or LF is a should
  672. # [18:22] <jwalden> don't remember what it says about generating them
  673. # [18:23] <Philip`> I assume Apache messes around with the output headers anyway, because it's got to stick its own ones onto there, so maybe it automatically fixes the newlines too
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  675. # [18:23] <gsnedders> jwalden: no, accepting LF is SHOULD
  676. # [18:23] <annevk> UAs accept all of CR / LF / CRLF in my testing
  677. # [18:23] <gsnedders> jwalden: it MUST be CRLF, though
  678. # [18:23] <gsnedders> annevk: not all accept CR
  679. # [18:24] <gsnedders> I can't remember which don't, but not all do
  680. # [18:24] <annevk> well, "all", or did I miss something?
  681. # [18:24] <gsnedders> Firefox or Safari didn't accept it.
  682. # [18:24] <gsnedders> Well, Gecko or CFNetwork
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  688. # [18:50] <annevk> jgraham_, I think hsivonen made typos
  689. # [18:50] <annevk> what you suggested is what he meant, unlesss I'm missing something
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  693. # [18:59] <gsnedders> annevk: of course CSS is hard :)
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  700. # [19:24] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/2008/03/validators-chart
  701. # [19:27] <annevk> wow, TimBL: "The idea of using SVG without XML is horrifying."
  702. # [19:27] * Quits: davidb (n=davidb@bas4-toronto06-1279311156.dsl.bell.ca)
  703. # [19:30] <annevk> the TAG also his the wrong impression that changing the syntax is changing the design of the language
  704. # [19:30] <annevk> quite fascinating
  705. # [19:30] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/04/03-minutes
  706. # [19:33] <annevk> lots of talk about changing XML too
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  712. # [19:56] <jwalden> dangit dangit dangit
  713. # [19:57] * Philip` wonders what brought on such a triple-danging
  714. # [19:58] <jwalden> sending the msft postMessage feedback from the wrong address, triggering moderation on the whatwg@ list
  715. # [19:58] <Philip`> Ah
  716. # [19:59] <jwalden> at this point I really should just give up, but then I make it slightly harder to filter the list into a folder
  717. # [20:00] <Philip`> Doesn't filtering on from=whatwg@whatwg.org work just as effectively?
  718. # [20:01] <jwalden> maybe
  719. # [20:01] <jwalden> I haven't looked
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  728. # [20:16] <bradee-oh> Hixie: around?
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  733. # [20:29] <hsivonen> I now realize that my outline for an token interning function was incredibly naïve
  734. # [20:29] <hsivonen> the one I sent to the list
  735. # [20:29] <hsivonen> but the observation was good
  736. # [20:29] <hsivonen> what to do with that observation was bad
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  738. # [20:30] <hsivonen> Hixie: do you happen to have lists of all known SVG and MathML element names? What about attributes?
  739. # [20:30] <hsivonen> Hixie: also, do you already have the half-assed list of HTML elements?
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  742. # [20:33] <jwalden> MikeSmith: fyi, feedback sent to whatwg
  743. # [20:41] <annevk> hmm, per the new magic the tokenizer needs to know the current node and all
  744. # [20:43] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-67-160-251-228.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
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  746. # [20:50] <hsivonen> annevk: did the spec change land already?
  747. # [20:51] <annevk> no, hixie updated the wiki page
  748. # [20:52] <hsivonen> oh ok
  749. # [20:52] <annevk> i should investigate the CDATA stuff better
  750. # [20:52] * weinig is now known as weinig|away
  751. # [20:52] <annevk> maybe simon was right and it would be relatively safe to enable it everywhere causing less to authors trying to grasp the nonsense, etc.
  752. # [20:53] <BenMillard> hsivonen, I've seen links to pages which list element names and attributes. trying to track them down again
  753. # [20:53] <annevk> hsivonen, at this point you reached multifail btw with your doctype stuff, either string can be null per spec
  754. # [20:55] <hsivonen> annevk: argh. my spec snapshot is out of date then
  755. # [20:56] <BenMillard> hsivonen, mathml stuff from Hixie: http://damowmow.com/temp/mml
  756. # [20:56] <hsivonen> annevk: I'm 100% certain the spec has been in a state where they can never be null
  757. # [20:56] <hsivonen> BenMillard: thanks
  758. # [20:56] <annevk> hsivonen, are you sure? they're explicitly set to the empty string during tokenization (initially they're "missing")
  759. # [20:56] * weinig|away is now known as weinig
  760. # [20:57] <annevk> CDATA breakage: http://www.kozlika.org/kozeries/post/2007/10/07/A-quai
  761. # [20:57] <BenMillard> hsivonen, another mathml thing here: http://junkyard.damowmow.com/308
  762. # [20:57] <annevk> search for "rdf:RDF"
  763. # [20:58] <hsivonen> annevk: "the publicId attribute set to the public identifier given in the DOCTYPE token, or the empty string if the public identifier was not set"
  764. # [20:58] <hsivonen> annevk: I'm not totally failing
  765. # [20:58] <hsivonen> annevk: hence, the tokenizer can emit null but a null never ends up in the tree
  766. # [20:58] <annevk> but i want it to end up in the serializer format
  767. # [20:59] <annevk> i think
  768. # [20:59] <annevk> it affects mode sniffing
  769. # [20:59] <annevk> for one
  770. # [20:59] <hsivonen> annevk: mode is out-of-DOM-band data
  771. # [21:00] <hsivonen> annevk: what's the point with that trickery around RDF?
  772. # [21:01] <annevk> i try not to comprehend the Web :)
  773. # [21:01] <hsivonen> I sure hope that anti-pattern doesn't come from a blogging tool and is the doing of a single template writer on one blog
  774. # [21:03] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.98.35)
  775. # [21:03] <hsivonen> I wonder if I should cut a release of the parser with all the chardet goodness before the namespace stuff lands
  776. # [21:03] <Philip`> Loads of people do <script type="text/javascript"><!--//--><![CDATA[//><!--
  777. # [21:03] <Philip`> Uh, loads who are on tripod.com anyway
  778. # [21:03] <annevk> <script> doesn't matter
  779. # [21:04] <annevk> as in, <script> parsing would not even hit <![CDATA[
  780. # [21:05] * Quits: tommorris (n=tommorri@dyn891-224.ota.ichosted.org.uk)
  781. # [21:05] <hsivonen> what does "move the insertion mode flag to before the tokeniser " mean?
  782. # [21:06] <annevk> i think it means introducing the concept before the tokenizer instead of after
  783. # [21:06] <hsivonen> looks like "in namespace" *really* is a boolean flag and not a real insertion mode enumeration value
  784. # [21:06] <annevk> (because it will be used in the tokenizer, presumably)
  785. # [21:07] <hsivonen> Hixie: please make "in namespace" a "mode flag" or somesuch instead of an insertion mode
  786. # [21:07] <Philip`> http://www.biludlejningaarhus.dk
  787. # [21:07] <Philip`> (uses CDATA in a way that breaks Opera)
  788. # [21:08] <Philip`> http://pl.samsungmobile.com/ - <script id="ssInfo" type="text/xml" warning="DO NOT MODIFY!"> - hmm
  789. # [21:09] <hsivonen> analyzing the Web stuff out there doesn't build confidence in the general competence of Web developers...
  790. # [21:09] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  791. # [21:09] <annevk> ah, Mozilla has different error handling for CDATA that breaks MSDN: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=305242
  792. # [21:09] <annevk> that's why I was confused
  793. # [21:10] <Philip`> http://www.jcu.edu.au/business/ does the same DO NOT MODIFY thing
  794. # [21:11] <Philip`> http://www.eragintza.net/ - I don't quite know what's going on there
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  797. # [21:16] <hsivonen> mad guessing skills: http://damowmow.com/temp/svg
  798. # [21:18] <bradee-oh> Hixie: when you get a chance... I'm curious why Storage.removeItem(key) doesn't cause a StorageEvent to be emitted. Or at least I can't figure out where it's mandated in the spec
  799. # [21:18] * bradee-oh is now known as bradee-lunch
  800. # [21:19] <hsivonen> it appears that HTML, SVG and MathML only use ascii letters and hyphen-minus in element names
  801. # [21:19] * Joins: itpastorn (n=itpastor@139.57.227.87.static.th.siw.siwnet.net)
  802. # [21:19] <hsivonen> <select1> would be a departure from that
  803. # [21:19] * Joins: andersca (n=andersca@nat/apple/x-48dcb3cfb0cac579)
  804. # [21:23] <BenMillard> hsivonen, SVG 1.1 spec has element index http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/eltindex.html and attributes index http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/attindex.html
  805. # [21:23] * Joins: qwert666_ (n=qwert666@etp131.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)
  806. # [21:23] <hsivonen> BenMillard: thanks
  807. # [21:23] <annevk> bradee-lunch, seems like a bug, e-mail whatwg@whatwg.org
  808. # [21:25] <BenMillard> hsivonen, LOL @ "mad guessing skills" :D
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  816. # [21:51] <annevk> I wonder, all this attention the IE team suddenly has for plugins. I guess that's just because of SilverLight and not because plugins suddenly started to be more interesting?
  817. # [21:52] <annevk> (They don't actually mention SilverLight explicitly.)
  818. # [21:52] <andersca> annevk: they do?
  819. # [21:53] <annevk> Latest example: http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/04/04/designing-for-add-on-performance.aspx
  820. # [21:53] <andersca> ah
  821. # [21:53] * Quits: xShad0w_ (n=xShad0w@pool-71-163-158-69.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
  822. # [21:54] <annevk> Oops, maybe that's more related to Firefox extensions...
  823. # [21:54] * Quits: tommorris (n=tommorri@dyn891-224.ota.ichosted.org.uk)
  824. # [21:56] * Philip` notices that the Opera Acid3 release includes 3D canvas
  825. # [21:56] <Philip`> (hence it saying "./lingogi: error while loading shared libraries: libGL.so.1.2: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory" until I fix LD_LIBRARY_PATH)
  826. # [21:57] * hsivonen realizes h1-h6 use numbers in tag names
  827. # [21:58] <hsivonen> whew. - plus a-z plus 1-6 fit exactly in 5 bits
  828. # [21:59] <annevk> what if the tag name contains < ?
  829. # [22:00] <Philip`> I have no idea if gperf is relevant here (since I don't know where here is) but I'll suggest it anyway
  830. # [22:01] <hsivonen> annevk: then it's not valid and legitimate apps won't compare against it, so the string doesn't need to be interned (or interned fast)
  831. # [22:05] * andersca pokes Hixie
  832. # [22:07] <annevk> hsivonen, ah, you're going to optimize existing known names?
  833. # [22:07] <hsivonen> oops they don't fit in 5 bits
  834. # [22:08] <hsivonen> except no valid tag name has a 'z' in it. yay
  835. # [22:08] <annevk> your optimization sounds dangerous and temporary :)
  836. # [22:10] <hsivonen> annevk: there are fewer than 2^32 standard element names. the function that maps the known elements to distinct ints doesn't need to be the same between releases
  837. # [22:11] <hsivonen> (besides, if I find that a hash table is better, they don't even need to be distinct)
  838. # [22:11] <annevk> what are you going to put in the other 3 bits?
  839. # [22:12] <hsivonen> annevk: I was thinking of taking the last 6 characters on each element name and giving 5 bits per character
  840. # [22:12] <hsivonen> that fits in an int
  841. # [22:16] <hsivonen> hmm. the cunning plan that would have worked with HTML has collisions inside MathML and inside SVG
  842. # [22:20] <annevk> just list them all a-z and give them a number
  843. # [22:21] <annevk> (all elements)
  844. # [22:21] <annevk> then map that to constants so people start not relying on the exact number :)
  845. # [22:21] <bradee-lunch> annevk: I was going to, but if Hixie's around, irc is generally much quicker :)
  846. # [22:22] * bradee-lunch notices he still hasn't shown up
  847. # [22:22] * bradee-lunch is now known as bradee-oh
  848. # [22:22] <hsivonen> the number is not exposed outside the parser
  849. # [22:22] <annevk> bradee-oh, he's in hiding it seems
  850. # [22:22] <annevk> (he's on some other channel)
  851. # [22:22] <bradee-oh> Hixie's on all the channels
  852. # [22:22] <bradee-oh> ALL OF THEM
  853. # [22:22] <bradee-oh> you just don't realize it
  854. # [22:22] <bradee-oh> :)
  855. # [22:23] <hsivonen> ok. I now have a funtion that maps all known HTML, SVG and MathML elements to distinct 32-bit values
  856. # [22:23] <annevk> bradee-oh, well that too, but I mean't "active"
  857. # [22:23] <hsivonen> 18 lines
  858. # [22:23] <bradee-oh> lol
  859. # [22:24] <hsivonen> or rather, all distinct lower-cased HTML, SVG and MathML element names
  860. # [22:25] <annevk> that doesn't deal with svg:a versus html:a
  861. # [22:25] <hsivonen> chances are that this doesn't beat a simpler hash, though
  862. # [22:25] <hsivonen> annevk: same magic number
  863. # [22:25] <hsivonen> annevk: this is just a string to magic int function
  864. # [22:25] <annevk> different element though
  865. # [22:25] <annevk> oh well
  866. # [22:25] <hsivonen> same string
  867. # [22:25] <annevk> i'm not sure what you're trying to do anyway :p
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  872. # [22:42] <hsivonen> annevk: I'm trying to figure out how to best get an interned string for a char[] for known elements and looking up a magic group enumeration as a side effect
  873. # [22:42] <hsivonen> annevk: at least anecdotes say that parser perf should improve when interning is smarter than new String(buf).intern()
  874. # [22:43] <hsivonen> I want to remove the intermediate string object
  875. # [22:43] <hsivonen> and I want to exploit a priori knowledge of the possible contents of the strings
  876. # [22:43] <Hixie> is string comparison in your parser a bottleneck?
  877. # [22:44] <hsivonen> Hixie: I should probably profile it myself, but source comments in the XML parser say that avoiding new string + intern() is a big win
  878. # [22:44] <Hixie> oh i'm sure it is
  879. # [22:44] <hsivonen> and yes, I definitely want the strings to be interned
  880. # [22:45] <hsivonen> == is nicer than .equals() if nothing else
  881. # [22:45] <Hixie> but if it's a 50% speedup on 20ms when the rest of your validation process takes 5s, then it's not the place to be concentrating :-)
  882. # [22:45] <Hixie> of course if the numbers are the other way around, then it is
  883. # [22:45] * Joins: xShad0w__ (n=xShad0w@pool-71-178-183-227.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
  884. # [22:45] * Hixie is still amazed that he got from 90+ minutes to 1 second by implementing the table tainting stuff in the spec
  885. # [22:45] <Hixie> (on one particular page)
  886. # [22:46] <hsivonen> Hixie: the gc contribution of the excessive string garbage that is generated now is hard to quantify
  887. # [22:46] * bradee-oh pounces on Hixie now that he's revealed himself
  888. # [22:46] <Hixie> true
  889. # [22:46] <Hixie> bradee-oh: hey, wassup
  890. # [22:46] <bradee-oh> Hixie: I just emailed whatwg before you showed (go figure), but...
  891. # [22:46] <hsivonen> Hixie: but yeah, I really should focus on getting rid of the XSLT dependency and on eliminating synchronized hashtables from the Relax ng validator
  892. # [22:47] <bradee-oh> Hixie: is there any reason why Storage.removeItem() shouldn't result in a StorageEvent being fired?
  893. # [22:47] <hsivonen> Hixie: the thing is that those are less stable to be replaced
  894. # [22:47] <hsivonen> at the moment
  895. # [22:47] <bradee-oh> Hixie: it seems weird that we fire for one form of mutation, but not another
  896. # [22:47] * Quits: xShad0w (n=xShad0w@pool-71-178-183-227.washdc.fios.verizon.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  897. # [22:48] <Hixie> bradee-oh: e-mail is always best
  898. # [22:48] <Hixie> bradee-oh: removeItem() sounds like it should fire the event
  899. # [22:48] <Hixie> bradee-oh: probably an oversight
  900. # [22:48] <bradee-oh> Hixie: well, its out there, but I was just curious :)
  901. # [22:48] <bradee-oh> okay!
  902. # [22:48] <Hixie> :-)
  903. # [22:48] <Philip`> String allocation was the biggest performance issue in my C++ parser
  904. # [22:48] <Hixie> hsivonen: less stable to be replaced?
  905. # [22:48] <Philip`> but I don't know whether it still is, after having optimised it to some extent
  906. # [22:49] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'm waiting for upstream to change the RELAX NG validator
  907. # [22:49] <hsivonen> Hixie: and I edited the Schematron schema just last week
  908. # [22:49] <Hixie> aah
  909. # [22:50] <hsivonen> Hixie: changing all Hashtables to HashMaps will be a huge pain to maintain unless I get upstream to take my patches
  910. # [22:50] <Hixie> makes sense
  911. # [22:51] <hsivonen> perhaps I should just copy Hashtable from OpenJDK and make a non-synchronized fork of that class so that only imports would need to change
  912. # [22:51] <Philip`> You just need a cleverer JVM that can detect you're only using the object in a single thread
  913. # [22:52] <hsivonen> and I have profiled that the Hashtable usage is huge, although I haven't profiled the lock contribution
  914. # [22:52] <hsivonen> Philip`: well, yeah, HotSpot in JDK7 should fix Java 1.0 design flaws in the VM finally...
  915. # [22:53] <hsivonen> though not having the locks at all must be faster than having thread-biased locks
  916. # [22:53] * Quits: csarven (i=csarven@on-irc.csarven.ca) ("http://www.csarven.ca")
  917. # [22:53] <Philip`> You could make the validator multi-threaded instead
  918. # [22:54] <Philip`> so then the synchronized bits wouldn't be unnecessary waste
  919. # [22:54] <Hixie> lunch bbl
  920. # [22:54] <hsivonen> Philip`: heh
  921. # [22:54] <hsivonen> anyway, the real bottle neck is Schematron memory footprint
  922. # [22:57] <Philip`> But it's a multi-core future and you can't afford to be left behind!
  923. # [22:58] <hsivonen> anyway, considering string interning and generating excessive garbage, it is really dumb that java.lang.String doesn't have a public static intern(char[] buf, int offset, int length) method
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  932. # [23:16] <Hixie> annevk: does opera do postMessage()?
  933. # [23:18] <Hixie> annevk: if so, it would be good to get your feedback on http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2008-April/014324.html
  934. # [23:26] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.255.98.35)
  935. # [23:28] <hsivonen> hmm. should I reply to the sgml thing or just let the dead horse rest..
  936. # [23:32] <annevk> Hixie, event dispatching is synchronous you once explained to me, I don't see why that shouldn't be the case for postMessage()
  937. # [23:33] * Quits: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.255.98.35)
  938. # [23:34] <Hixie> please reply on the thread :-)
  939. # [23:35] <Hixie> is there a DOM interface already specified somewhere that just acts as a string:string map?
  940. # [23:38] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Core/core.html#NameList
  941. # [23:38] <Hixie> close
  942. # [23:38] <Hixie> oh well, i'll just roll my own
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  946. # [23:43] <annevk> replied
  947. # [23:43] <Hixie> ta
  948. # [23:43] <annevk> Hixie, DOMTokenList is also close to http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Core/core.html#DOMStringList
  949. # [23:45] <annevk> a subset even, it seems
  950. # [23:45] <Hixie> superset, you mean?
  951. # [23:45] <annevk> right
  952. # [23:46] <annevk> (well, when I wrote "subset" I thought of how DOMStringList is a subset of DOMTokenList)
  953. # [23:48] <Hixie> ah
  954. # [23:49] <annevk> heh, my CustomData post gave the wiki page some attention
  955. # [23:49] * annevk looks
  956. # [23:51] <annevk> oh, nothing shocking
  957. # [23:53] <annevk> actually, I was wrong about superset/subset, one uses "has" and the other uses "contains"
  958. # [23:54] <annevk> however, DOMStringList is only used by DOMConfiguration which seems like something that should be dropped from a future DOM version
  959. # [23:55] <Hixie> DOMStringList is used in various places, including Opera Platform
  960. # [23:55] <annevk> NameList is not used by any other interface...
  961. # [23:55] <annevk> Opera Platform is proprietary though
  962. # [23:55] <Hixie> just sayin'
  963. # [23:55] <annevk> :)
  964. # [23:56] <annevk> oh, sane wiki software on w3.org: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/Main_Page
  965. # [23:57] * Philip` questions the use of the term "sane"
  966. # [23:57] <Hixie> i love how they managed to make it look uglier than wikimedia's default
  967. # [23:57] <Hixie> and i'm with Philip` on the "sane" part
  968. # [23:57] <annevk> well, there's http://esw.w3.org/topic/FrontPage
  969. # [23:58] <Philip`> I could agree with "saner" :-)
  970. # [23:58] <annevk> but maybe wiki software can't be sane
  971. # [23:58] <Philip`> s/wiki //
  972. # [23:58] * annevk goes back to media query error handling
  973. # [23:59] <Hixie> wiki software should use html and contenteditable
  974. # Session Close: Sat Apr 05 00:00:01 2008

The end :)