/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-04-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Apr 05 00:00:01 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:07] <Philip`> The problem with that is that HTML is an ugly format to write in, and wiki syntaxes are much nicer
  4. # [00:07] <Philip`> and nobody likes WYSIWYG editing
  5. # [00:08] <hsivonen> aside: regarding retrofitting accessibility: http://gethelveticaoffourmoney.com/
  6. # [00:09] * Philip` thought publishing images of banknotes was generally considered not a thing to do
  7. # [00:11] <hsivonen> Philip`: no worries, the eurion constellation will take away people's freedom to print the page
  8. # [00:12] <Philip`> Hmm, I thought that affected scanners too
  9. # [00:14] <Philip`> Oh, maybe not, I was just remembering the story about a photocopier
  10. # [00:14] <jwalden> haha
  11. # [00:14] <hsivonen> Philip`: I haven't tested it with banknotes, but I have tried printing and scanning the eurion constellation
  12. # [00:15] <jwalden> ah, the joys of the inquisitive mind
  13. # [00:15] <hsivonen> Philip`: the system doesn't work
  14. # [00:15] <Philip`> (Apparently the Computer Lab here got a shiny new colour photocopier some time ago, so the first thing the security researchers did was try to copy banknotes, and they were surprised when it failed)
  15. # [00:15] <jwalden> if I flip the switch again, will I be struck by lightning again?
  16. # [00:15] <hsivonen> Philip`: whoa
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  25. # [01:18] * MikeSmith reads up on eurion constellation and sees that it apparently may have been invented by OMRON
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  27. # [01:23] <Hixie> data-foo="" on any element; element.dataset[foo] for DOM access is now in the spec (on whatwg.org; not yet checked in)
  28. # [01:25] <annevk> the authoring requirement is part of the example
  29. # [01:26] <annevk> also, maybe add an explicit note that these are not intended for use by specifications or user agents, etc., only Web authors
  30. # [01:29] <andersca> Hixie: hey
  31. # [01:29] <andersca> Hixie: got another quick question about the ApplicationCache object
  32. # [01:31] * MikeSmith reads jwalden posting
  33. # [01:31] * Parts: hasather_ (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  34. # [01:31] <annevk> Hixie, also, if there are supposed to be links between the method definitions and the algorithms that hasn't worked out
  35. # [01:32] <annevk> Hixie, DOMStringMap has [[Put]] in the IDL but the prose defines [[Set]]
  36. # [01:33] <Hixie> annevk: yo
  37. # [01:33] <Hixie> er
  38. # [01:33] <Hixie> andersca: yo
  39. # [01:33] <Hixie> annevk: cool, thanks, going through and fixing now...
  40. # [01:34] <andersca> Hixie: about
  41. # [01:34] <andersca> void add(in DOMString uri);
  42. # [01:34] <andersca> void remove(in DOMString uri);
  43. # [01:34] <andersca> Hixie: can I specify relative uris?
  44. # [01:36] <Hixie> yeah, that should work
  45. # [01:36] <andersca> and they should be relative to the manifest uri?
  46. # [01:36] <Hixie> hm, dunno
  47. # [01:36] <Hixie> i'd guess they should be relative to the same thing that location.href="uri" would be relative to
  48. # [01:36] <Hixie> please do send mail asking for that to be clarified
  49. # [01:36] <andersca> will do!
  50. # [01:36] <andersca> ah, another minor thing
  51. # [01:37] <andersca> when there is a failure during the cache update process
  52. # [01:37] <andersca> I'm supposed to
  53. # [01:38] <andersca> "If this is a cache attempt, then discard cache and abort the update process, optionally alerting the user to the failure."
  54. # [01:38] <andersca> Hixie: shouldn't the cache be discarded regardless of whether it's a cache attempt or not?
  55. # [01:39] <Hixie> um
  56. # [01:40] <annevk> Hixie, also, dataset vs dataSet
  57. # [01:41] <Hixie> andersca: not sure
  58. # [01:41] <Hixie> andersca: in meeting right now, can't determine answer easily
  59. # [01:41] <andersca> Hixie: OK!
  60. # [01:41] <Hixie> andersca: please do send mail to the list, and assume what makes the most sense to you :-)
  61. # [01:42] <andersca> Hixie: will do
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  66. # [02:24] <Hixie> hsivonen mentioned wanting the namespace parsing thing to be a flag instead of a separate state, but i have no idea what that would mean
  67. # [02:24] <Hixie> i suppose it would mean going back to the old phase vs insertion mode thing
  68. # [02:25] <MikeSmith> Hixie - what's the basic use case for DOMStringMap?
  69. # [02:25] <Hixie> implementing .dataSet
  70. # [02:26] <Hixie> hence why it was added in the same checkin :-)
  71. # [02:30] <MikeSmith> :) OK, let me refine that... I see "embedding custom non-visible data in an HTML document for scripting purposes", so I guess I mean to ask, what are some examples of types of custom non-visible data that somebody might want to embed?
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  73. # [02:31] <Philip`> MikeSmith: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Mar/0156.html has one example
  74. # [02:31] <Hixie> MikeSmith: ah!
  75. # [02:31] <Hixie> MikeSmith: well say you're writing an app, like a game, say, and you want to put data into the document to represent state in a way that html doesn't support
  76. # [02:32] <Hixie> you need some sort of way to embed that data
  77. # [02:32] <MikeSmith> ah
  78. # [02:32] <MikeSmith> Hixie - thanks
  79. # [02:32] <MikeSmith> also Philip` thanks
  80. # [02:33] * MikeSmith reads "I don't much care about conformance, but I need some way to attach arbitrary data to elements, and it shouldn't be harder than adding an attribute."
  81. # [02:40] <annevk> MikeSmith, see http://www.alistapart.com/articles/customdtd/ for a twisted idea of what people do to work around it now
  82. # [02:40] <annevk> MikeSmith, (which actually creates "problems" going forward, because we'd like to use required="" in HTML5)
  83. # [02:40] * MikeSmith reads
  84. # [02:42] <annevk> (in practice people prolly don't bother with a custom DTD)
  85. # [02:43] <MikeSmith> annevk - yeah, I doubt even the author of that article would :)
  86. # [02:44] <MikeSmith> but I never read that PPK article before .. interesting
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  88. # [02:50] <Hixie> MikeSmith: pretty much
  89. # [02:52] <MikeSmith> OK, I see. - so having a method to embed the data eliminates the need to use custom attributes or some other hack in the markup (and have validators choke on those)
  90. # [02:52] <Hixie> right
  91. # [02:52] <Hixie> also helps avoid future clashes
  92. # [02:52] <Hixie> and makes validators less noisy
  93. # [02:54] <annevk> type=search is both in WF2 and WF3-search
  94. # [02:54] <annevk> in /issues/
  95. # [02:54] <Hixie> yeah the webforms comments a re a mess
  96. # [02:54] <Hixie> i need to resort them
  97. # [03:00] <MikeSmith> what browser implementation support is there for WF2 at this point?
  98. # [03:01] <MikeSmith> (I know about Opera support)
  99. # [03:03] <annevk> apart from input type=range in WebKit I don't think there is any
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  101. # [03:03] <Hixie> there are small bits implemented here and there, especially the bits that we just took from existing browsers and specced
  102. # [03:03] <Hixie> but yeah, most of it isn't implemented
  103. # [03:04] <eseidel> we don't have any WF2 to my knowledge
  104. # [03:04] <eseidel> maybe type=range, but I don't remember seeing that.
  105. # [03:05] <eseidel> we = webkit
  106. # [03:07] <annevk> I think it was done together with type=search
  107. # [03:08] <annevk> eseidel, see http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/hyatt/archives/2004_07.html#005928 for instance
  108. # [03:08] * annevk has no idea whether it's in the current code though
  109. # [03:10] <eseidel> ah, yes, range
  110. # [03:10] <eseidel> yeah, we do
  111. # [03:10] <annevk> anyways, good night
  112. # [03:11] * annevk has a hard time switching time zones
  113. # [03:13] <Hixie> type=range was the first publicly demonstrated WF2 feature
  114. # [03:13] <Hixie> it was demonstrated at wwdc 2004
  115. # [03:14] <Hixie> by jobs himself
  116. # [03:14] <Hixie> a proud moment for the whatwg
  117. # [03:15] <Philip`> It was uselessly limited to integers when I last tried it
  118. # [03:15] <Philip`> (Well, it was only useless because I was ranging between 1.0 and 2.0)
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  163. # [08:06] <annevk> Hixie, http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#tag-name is wrong though, it should list 1-6 too
  164. # [08:07] <annevk> Hixie, it basically forbids writing <h1>
  165. # [08:11] <Hixie> yeah that's what i said :-)
  166. # [08:12] <annevk> oh right
  167. # [08:13] <Hixie> i don't understand how to do what hsivonen wants
  168. # [08:14] <annevk> what was that again? :)
  169. # [08:17] <annevk> oh, the insertion mode thingie
  170. # [08:18] <annevk> Hixie, well, you can suggest that you can implement the "in namespace" as x separate modes
  171. # [08:18] <annevk> one for each mode from where you can enter it
  172. # [08:23] <Hixie> it seems like an implementation detail
  173. # [08:24] <Hixie> when i finally reply to all this mail
  174. # [08:25] <Hixie> it's going to be the biggest e-mail ever in the history of mankind
  175. # [08:25] <Hixie> there are 619 e-mails in the folder
  176. # [08:25] <annevk> :)
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  180. # [08:44] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/2003/entities/2007/w3centities-f.ent, as a URI, embodies everything that is wrong with W3C URI naming policy
  181. # [08:45] <Hixie> 618!
  182. # [08:47] <annevk> 618?
  183. # [08:47] <Hixie> the entity table in HTML% is going to be one gigantic table once we're done mergin this in, jesus
  184. # [08:47] <Hixie> 618 e-mails in the folder. i replied to one.
  185. # [08:48] <annevk> yeah, like another 2000 entries in that table...
  186. # [08:48] <Hixie> at least
  187. # [08:48] <annevk> i assume we're going to require ; everywhere?
  188. # [08:48] <Hixie> on the new ones, certainly
  189. # [08:49] <Hixie> gotta grandfather in the old ones though
  190. # [08:51] <annevk> hmm, &comma; etc. indeed don't make much sense
  191. # [08:51] <annevk> or &dollar;
  192. # [08:54] <Hixie> yeah i mentioned those in the mail
  193. # [09:02] <hsivonen> Hixie: "in namespace" leaks to the tokenizer and needs a secondary mode, so it might as well be boolea "in namespace" if ("in namespace") { ... } else { do the insertion mode thing }
  194. # [09:02] <Lachy> What the...&quest; That&apos;s just totally unnecessay&period;
  195. # [09:05] <annevk> it also has doubles, plusmn and PlusMinus
  196. # [09:08] <Lachy> annevk, blame mathml for that. HTML had plusmn, MathML added the other two http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/REC-MathML2-20031021/bycodes.html
  197. # [09:09] <Lachy> oh, MathML had all those unnecessary ASCII entities too
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  201. # [09:18] <Lachy> What does "underlying, canonically related, SGML document type" mean? http://www.w3.org/mid/i74pahwdm4.fsf@hilbert.math.albany.edu
  202. # [09:20] <annevk> I think the idea is that valid HTML documents are SGML-compatible
  203. # [09:23] <Hixie> hsivonen: the stack of open elements leaks to the tokeniser too
  204. # [09:24] <Hixie> hsivonen: i don't see how what you describe is any better in the spec than just another insertion mode with a flag
  205. # [09:25] <hsivonen> Hixie: I think a boolean will be more implementable
  206. # [09:26] * annevk doesn't quite see how the boolean would work
  207. # [09:27] <annevk> you'd need to reset that boolean everywhere insertion modes are changing because of <b><math><mtext></b> and such
  208. # [09:27] <annevk> iirc
  209. # [09:28] <annevk> (but if it can be done as boolean and that's easier, that seems like an impl detail you could just do yourself)
  210. # [09:29] <annevk> I wouldn't expect impl code to match the spec closely as the spec is not written with perf, memory usage, etc. in mind necessarily
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  221. # [11:29] <annevk> I just noticed that with HTML5 <p> regains it's original semantic. That is "<body>This is the first paragraph. <p>This is the second and last paragraph.</body>" is now true again
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  225. # [11:44] <Hixie> hsivonen: assuming there's no difference to the black box behaviour, that's irrelevant :-)
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  227. # [11:50] <hsivonen> Hixie: being able to track the correspondence of lines of code to lines of spec is not irrelevant to maintainability
  228. # [11:52] <Hixie> i agree
  229. # [11:53] <Hixie> but as i am going to be implementing it as a separate state because it'll be far easier to do that than have two different top-level branches, i'm not convinced that your model is the more likely one to be implemented :-)
  230. # [11:54] <hsivonen> I'm pretty sure there will be an implementation of my model :-)
  231. # [11:55] <Hixie> i meant the one likely to be more implemented
  232. # [11:55] <Hixie> we used to have the top-level branch statement
  233. # [11:55] <Hixie> people asked that it be removed in favour of more inter-state jumps and more states
  234. # [11:55] <Hixie> so...
  235. # [11:55] <Hixie> adding the top level again seems bad
  236. # [11:55] <hsivonen> Hixie: that was different
  237. # [11:56] <hsivonen> Hixie: I didn't like the old way in that case, either
  238. # [11:56] <hsivonen> Hixie: here you have one special mode that in some cases falls back on the secondary mode
  239. # [11:57] <hsivonen> so the secondary mode might as way stay in its original field and the special thing be guarded by a boolean
  240. # [11:57] <Hixie> we had one special mode (trailing end) that in some cases fell back on a secondary mode (in body or in frameset)
  241. # [11:57] <Hixie> how is that different?
  242. # [11:57] <hsivonen> Hixie: less code
  243. # [11:57] <annevk> depends on the impl
  244. # [11:57] <Hixie> ?
  245. # [11:58] <Hixie> what is less code than what?
  246. # [11:58] <annevk> I think the trailing end change worsened or will worsen our impl
  247. # [11:58] <hsivonen> Hixie: mainly: you can't change a switch argument temporarily while you are in a switch
  248. # [11:58] <hsivonen> Hixie: less code than juggling more than one mode enumeration around
  249. # [11:59] <Hixie> i don't follow
  250. # [11:59] <Hixie> just have each insertion mode in its own function, and have your insertion mode be a function pointer
  251. # [11:59] <Hixie> no switch
  252. # [12:00] <Hixie> no comparison costs
  253. # [12:00] <Hixie> and trivial jumping from insertion mode to insertion mode to "use the rules of" another mode
  254. # [12:00] <hsivonen> Hixie: without evidence, I claim that my impl is more HotSpot JIT-friendly
  255. # [12:01] <hsivonen> Hixie: the JIT cannot inline stuff where the object reference keeps changing
  256. # [12:01] <Hixie> possibly, but i'm certainly not basing the way the spec is structured on an argument that consists of the details of the cost of a function call in a particular java VM
  257. # [12:02] <hsivonen> also, without evidence, I claim that my impl would be more C compiler optimization-friendly
  258. # [12:02] <hsivonen> less runtime stack frames
  259. # [12:02] <hsivonen> s/less/fewer/
  260. # [12:03] <hsivonen> on a different topic: does the Google Code source browser have a directory tree depth limit?
  261. # [12:03] <roc> hsivonen: do you know what polymorphic inline caching is?
  262. # [12:04] <hsivonen> roc: I don't but I can guess. The problem is that I don't *know* the JIT optimizations (hence, "without evidence") are, so I'm erring on the side of simpler optimization being in place
  263. # [12:05] <annevk> You already have to keep track of the insertion mode for other stuff. Why is it an issue here?
  264. # [12:05] <Hixie> roc: hey sweet, the guy who wrote that paper works at google now
  265. # [12:06] <roc> Urs Holzle?
  266. # [12:06] <Hixie> annevk: he's managed to code around it
  267. # [12:06] <Hixie> roc: yeah
  268. # [12:06] <Hixie> roc: at least, i think so
  269. # [12:06] <roc> yeah well that's par for the course
  270. # [12:06] <Hixie> could be another Urs, of course :-)
  271. # [12:06] <hsivonen> annevk: the problem is that the "as if" in another mode stuff is more complex in this case, so just falling through in a switch won't work
  272. # [12:07] <Hixie> hsivonen: why don't you just have four states?
  273. # [12:07] <Hixie> hsivonen: one for each state that you can jump into the namespace state from
  274. # [12:07] <Hixie> (otherwise identical states)
  275. # [12:07] <annevk> yeah, i suggested something like that earlier
  276. # [12:08] <hsivonen> It seems to me that putting the namespace stuff on top and returning early when not doing "as if" is so much simpler
  277. # [12:08] <annevk> for the same reason i think i'd like trailing end back and leave splitting up as an impl detail
  278. # [12:09] <hsivonen> roc: btw, do you know of documentation of what optimizations HotSpot actually does?
  279. # [12:09] <hsivonen> finding information about that outside the source code seems hard
  280. # [12:09] <hsivonen> I guess they don't want people to expect anything in particular
  281. # [12:09] <roc> I don't know about documentation
  282. # [12:09] <roc> I know who to ask :-)
  283. # [12:10] <roc> you really don't want to be making assumptions about what optimizations it does
  284. # [12:10] <hsivonen> I can't help thinking about what it might do :-)
  285. # [12:11] <annevk> (aside, it's unlikely the media queries syntax will allow media="" to be valid because making @media { } work was not liked or something)
  286. # [12:11] <hsivonen> for example, earlier Maciej suggested a different structure for the tokenizer and which structure is more performant really depends on what HotSpot *really* does
  287. # [12:12] <hsivonen> that is different from how my code is structured now
  288. # [12:12] <annevk> hmm, lets not base the spec on that...
  289. # [12:12] <annevk> the proposal on the wiki fits a lot better in the way the parsing section is structured now
  290. # [12:13] <roc> if you insist on caring at this level then you also have to think about what the hardware does
  291. # [12:13] <annevk> restructuring the parsing section because HotSpot might optimize a direct implementation of that structure better seems like a bit of a stretch
  292. # [12:13] <roc> and if you really care then the most important thing is that you make the parser easy to parallelize
  293. # [12:14] <hsivonen> annevk: actually, I think making "in namespace" a flag would work in the spec nicely, too
  294. # [12:15] <hsivonen> roc: yeah, it's quite possible that certain "optimization" would make cache locality worse
  295. # [12:16] <hsivonen> Hixie: does Google Caja use the Validator.nu parser? there was the Google Groups post, but the source tree shows Google's own parser
  296. # [12:16] <Hixie> no idea
  297. # [12:16] * Quits: MacDome (n=eric@c-24-130-11-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  298. # [12:17] <Hixie> what name do people prefer for elements from the mathml and svg namespaces, as opposed to html elements? "foreign elements", "alien elements", "namespaced elements", or something else?
  299. # [12:18] * Joins: deane (n=dean@203-211-97-179.ue.woosh.co.nz)
  300. # [12:18] <annevk> foreign
  301. # [12:19] <annevk> namespaced is wrong (html is namespaced), alien is weird
  302. # [12:19] <hsivonen> ooh! I now see that Google Caja uses the Validator.nu parser but has its own tree builder subclass
  303. # [12:19] <Hixie> neat!
  304. # [12:20] * annevk thought Google Caja was some scripting effort
  305. # [12:20] <Hixie> i love w3c's old namespace policy
  306. # [12:20] <Hixie> three namespaces are now allowed in text/html
  307. # [12:20] <annevk> four
  308. # [12:20] <Hixie> they each have a different quasi-random four digit number in them
  309. # [12:21] <Hixie> i guess four, yes
  310. # [12:21] <annevk> but then your thingie no longer fits :p
  311. # [12:21] <Hixie> it's ok
  312. # [12:21] <Hixie> the fourth one has a different convention for trailing slashes
  313. # [12:21] <annevk> no
  314. # [12:21] <annevk> w3.org is broken
  315. # [12:22] <Hixie> oh, no, nevermind, the w3c site just redirects it
  316. # [12:22] <Hixie> SIGH
  317. # [12:22] <annevk> maybe 5 even
  318. # [12:23] <annevk> if we touch xml:lang / xml:base
  319. # [12:23] <Hixie> valid point
  320. # [12:23] <annevk> namespaces are like rabbits
  321. # [12:23] <Hixie> i was hoping to drop support for xml:base
  322. # [12:24] <Hixie> given the problems it gives us with dynamic pages
  323. # [12:24] <Hixie> and just use <base>
  324. # [12:24] <annevk> as long as you don't require reloading images on the fly xml:base support should be fine
  325. # [12:24] <annevk> and has about the same impact as <base> iirc
  326. # [12:25] <Hixie> yeah i guess we have to define this for <base> too
  327. # [12:26] <Hixie> oh well
  328. # [12:26] <annevk> i think what's important to define is when URI resolution takes place
  329. # [12:26] <annevk> for every thingie that takes a relative URI
  330. # [12:26] <annevk> cover that and dynamic stuff is covered too
  331. # [12:26] <Hixie> yeah
  332. # [12:27] <Hixie> that'll be fun
  333. # [12:27] <Hixie> yay changing base uris.
  334. # [12:28] <hsivonen> if anyone know of Validator.nu parser usage in a project that isn't listed at http://about.validator.nu/htmlparser/ , please let me know
  335. # [12:36] * Joins: webben (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com)
  336. # [12:39] <Hixie> i have now specced the _syntax_ of mathml+svg in text/html, if anyone cares
  337. # [12:39] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  338. # [12:39] * Parts: webben (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com)
  339. # [12:39] * Joins: webben (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com)
  340. # [12:43] <annevk> Hixie, there should probably be more information somewhere on stuff like <a xlink:href=...>
  341. # [12:44] <annevk> Hixie, maybe on how namespaces are not explicit in HTML syntax but instead are done through other means
  342. # [12:44] <Hixie> yeah, i expect an intro section somewhere will cover that
  343. # [12:44] <hsivonen> I find it a bit surprising that even though I offer support for SAX, DOM and XOM, both Abdera and Caja want something else internally
  344. # [12:45] <annevk> Hixie, it also doesn't explain for instance that the only foreign containers allowed are <math> and <svg>
  345. # [12:45] <annevk> which does impact syntax somewhat because otherwise they'd be "normal elements"
  346. # [12:47] <Hixie> annevk: how do you mean?
  347. # [12:47] <hsivonen> Hixie: should I see the speccing at current-work?
  348. # [12:47] <Hixie> hsivonen: yeah
  349. # [12:48] <Hixie> hsivonen: only in the syntax section so far
  350. # [12:48] <Hixie> not the parsing
  351. # [12:48] <annevk> Hixie, in <p> <g/> </p> the <g/> is an incorrect normal element though in <svg> <g/> </svg> it's a correct foreign element
  352. # [12:49] <Hixie> annevk: oh i see what you're saying
  353. # [12:49] <Hixie> hm, how to phrase that
  354. # [12:49] * Hixie checks in the change that makes MathML and SVG legal in HTML
  355. # [12:49] <annevk> maybe define foreign element containers or something
  356. # [12:50] <hsivonen> Hixie: yeah, I had trouble searching because I didn't realize I needed to search for "foreign el" instead of "math"
  357. # [12:51] <Hixie> hsivonen: heh
  358. # [12:51] <Hixie> annevk: wait, i don't have to define this. It's already illegal.
  359. # [12:51] * Joins: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  360. # [12:51] <zcorpan_> + GREATER-THAN SIGN (<code title="">]]></code>). Finally, the comment must
  361. # [12:51] <zcorpan_> Hixie: s/comment/CDATA block/
  362. # [12:51] <Hixie> annevk: oops!
  363. # [12:51] <Hixie> er
  364. # [12:51] <Hixie> zcorpan_: oops!
  365. # [12:51] <annevk> Hixie, because of your new checkin?
  366. # [12:52] <Hixie> effectively, yes
  367. # [12:52] <annevk> zcorpan_, I suspect http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?p=679 of being spam
  368. # [12:53] <annevk> Hixie, this stuff definitely needs a solid intro then that pulls it all together
  369. # [12:54] <zcorpan_> annevk: hmm yeah
  370. # [12:54] <Hixie> annevk: yeah
  371. # [12:56] * zcorpan_ gets a 500 from the forums admin panel
  372. # [12:56] <annevk> I get a 500 for http://forums.whatwg.org/login.php
  373. # [12:57] <annevk> oh, now it works
  374. # [12:57] <annevk> and now it doesn't :)
  375. # [12:58] <annevk> hmm, seems the Hixie server park is down again :p
  376. # [12:58] <Hixie> acid3 is being hit
  377. # [12:58] <Hixie> the server will stop allocating memory when acid3 is hit
  378. # [12:59] <Hixie> i hate that this links the tokeniser to the insertion mode and the stack of open elements
  379. # [13:01] <annevk> ah yes, I have a total of two pages that break when <![CDATA[ is enabled in text/html, neither seems particularly important, but I guess it's safer not to enable it
  380. # [13:02] <annevk> '"if a start tag is emitted with the self-closing flag set, and the token is processed by the tree construction stage without that flag being acknowledged, then there is a parse error"' seems painful btw to implement
  381. # [13:02] <Hixie> yeah
  382. # [13:02] <Hixie> better ideas welcome
  383. # [13:03] <annevk> have the same kind of check as with CDATA
  384. # [13:03] <annevk> only also include all HTML void elements
  385. # [13:03] <Hixie> i guess that's equivalent, but in practice i'd probably implement it the other way for performance
  386. # [13:04] <annevk> how would you check it? adding a check to each start tag thingie?
  387. # [13:04] <Hixie> just check the flag when you come out of the tree construction stage
  388. # [13:05] <annevk> oh, it'd be a global flag
  389. # [13:05] <Hixie> no, just a flag on the token
  390. # [13:05] <Hixie> the flag is set when you see a />, it's reset when you self-close
  391. # [13:05] <Hixie> check the flag when you are done calling ProcessToken() or whatever
  392. # [13:06] <annevk> isn't the selc close happening when you might have lost the original token?
  393. # [13:06] <Hixie> why would you lose the original token
  394. # [13:06] <Hixie> ?
  395. # [13:07] <Hixie> token = getToken(); processToken(token); if (token.selfClosingFlag) { parseError(); }
  396. # [13:07] <annevk> i suppose that could work
  397. # [13:08] <annevk> oh well, never mind, if i can't find out how to make that approach work i'll just do what i suggested above :)
  398. # [13:08] <Hixie> :-)
  399. # [13:08] <annevk> html5lib python version is unfortunately too slow to matter in perf land anyway
  400. # [13:10] * Quits: tommorris (n=tommorri@dyn891-224.ota.ichosted.org.uk)
  401. # [13:14] <annevk> I think the sections on MathML and SVG in the content section could use some more attention in due course as well. Indicating authors can use them for inline complex mathematics and inline graphics.
  402. # [13:15] <annevk> Similarly to <html xmlns=...> we should probably also indicate that <math xmlns=...> and <svg xmlns=... xlink:xmlns=...> are faith tokens that are not forbidden in the text/html world.
  403. # [13:15] <Hixie> with examples and stuff, yeah
  404. # [13:15] <Hixie> i think i'll just make those attributes end up in the right namespace
  405. # [13:15] <Hixie> and that'll handle that
  406. # [13:15] <Hixie> (though we might add some text about it too)
  407. # [13:15] <Hixie> (informateively)
  408. # [13:16] <annevk> that'd be 6 namespaces
  409. # [13:16] <Hixie> good times
  410. # [13:16] <annevk> rabbits, i tell you :)
  411. # [13:16] <Hixie> we're becoming a real grown up w3c language!
  412. # [13:16] * Joins: tommorris (n=tommorri@dyn891-224.ota.ichosted.org.uk)
  413. # [13:17] <annevk> time for another splinter cell, the NNC (No Namespace Consortium)
  414. # [13:17] <Hixie> well that's really basically what we are
  415. # [13:18] <Hixie> ok moved the tree construction state up to before the tokeniser
  416. # [13:20] <zcorpan_> the xmlns attribute on <html> can't end up in the right namespace
  417. # [13:21] <zcorpan_> because people do html[xmlns] and expect it to work, iirc
  418. # [13:21] <Hixie> i meant just for the math and svg elements
  419. # [13:21] <Hixie> but good to know
  420. # [13:21] <zcorpan_> ah
  421. # [13:21] <Hixie> what's a better name than "in namespace" for hte new insertion mode
  422. # [13:21] <annevk> in foreign content
  423. # [13:21] <Hixie> "in foreign lands"?
  424. # [13:21] <annevk> :)
  425. # [13:22] <annevk> i like that
  426. # [13:22] * zcorpan_ too :)
  427. # [13:26] <hsivonen> it would be interesting to benchmark the Validator.nu parser with Xerces DOM and Xerces in the DOM mode
  428. # [13:27] <hsivonen> to see if the XML is faster meme has substance
  429. # [13:28] <Philip`> Perhaps a more useful measure is whether an XML parser written in n man-hours is faster than an HTML parser written with the same amount of effort
  430. # [13:28] <hsivonen> Philip`: sure
  431. # [13:28] <Philip`> because otherwise you'd find that e.g. HTML parsers used in browsers are faster than their XML parsers, because the HTML parser is used a lot more and has been optimised more heavily
  432. # [13:29] <hsivonen> Philip`: but I'm pretty sure that Xerces has way more person hours
  433. # [13:29] <Philip`> and so it wouldn't be measuring the differences of the technology itself
  434. # [13:29] <hsivonen> Philip`: so if V.nu comes even close, it would mean that XML isn't a real perf win
  435. # [13:29] <annevk> (If you start comparing man hours it would also be useful to measure conformances at some point.)
  436. # [13:30] <hsivonen> (it seems to me that Xerces is zealously conforming unlike some other XML parser)
  437. # [13:30] <annevk> (To see whether it's easier to write a conforming HTML or XML parser.)
  438. # [13:30] <hsivonen> s
  439. # [13:32] <Philip`> Xerces seems to be about three billion lines of code and I haven't yet worked out what it's all for
  440. # [13:35] <Hixie> i hope nobody minds, but i'm making CDATA blocks emit text nodes, not CDATA blocks
  441. # [13:35] <Philip`> Hmm, maybe it's mostly for nothing - in a fairly typical .hpp file from Xerces-C, there's 160 lines to declare a class with three pure virtual methods
  442. # [13:35] <Hixie> in text/html
  443. # [13:36] <annevk> that should be done in text/xml too
  444. # [13:36] <annevk> so no
  445. # [13:42] <hsivonen> Philip`: part of my point is that XML parsers aren't necessarily small and neat :-)
  446. # [13:43] <annevk> yeah, full XML parsers are way more complicated than HTML parsers
  447. # [13:43] <Hixie> annevk: actually listing the conditions under which the start tag will be acknowledged is non-trivial
  448. # [13:43] <Hixie> er
  449. # [13:43] <annevk> it's amazing that propaganda went unclaimed for so long
  450. # [13:43] <Hixie> the start tag self-closing flag
  451. # [13:43] <hsivonen> Philip`: the reason why I use Ælfred2 even though it was less conforming to start with is that Xerces has layers and layers of abstraction which makes it hard to hack
  452. # [13:44] * Quits: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  453. # [13:44] * Joins: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  454. # [13:47] <hsivonen> Hixie: have you already implemented the namespace features in Sawzall?
  455. # [13:47] <Hixie> no
  456. # [13:47] <Hixie> my sawzall parser is very much behind the spec
  457. # [13:47] <Hixie> it still has phases!
  458. # [13:48] <annevk> Hixie, if "in foreign lands" and current_node in (<math:mi>, ..., <svg:title>) and tag_name in (html_void_list) or "in foreign lands" and current_node not in (<math:mi>, ..., <svg:title>) or not "in foreign lands" and tag_name in (html_void_list): pass else: fail()
  459. # [13:48] <hsivonen> ok. I guess we aren't going to see studies of the algorithm applied to billions of pages just yet
  460. # [13:49] <Hixie> annevk: you missed a case
  461. # [13:49] <annevk> :(
  462. # [13:49] <Hixie> annevk: <p/> in foreign lands is a parse error
  463. # [13:49] * Joins: jgraham (n=jgraham@81-86-218-215.dsl.pipex.com)
  464. # [13:49] <Hixie> hsivonen: yeah, i need to get on that
  465. # [13:49] <Hixie> hsivonen: probably won't be a few weeks though
  466. # [13:50] <annevk> oh right, the magic list of HTML elements
  467. # [13:50] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  468. # [13:50] <annevk> I forgot about that
  469. # [13:50] <Hixie> so did i
  470. # [13:50] <Hixie> until i tried to spec it as you requested
  471. # [13:50] <Hixie> and then it got reeeeeallllly complicated
  472. # [13:50] <annevk> heh
  473. # [13:51] * hsivonen is pondering changing the tokenizer to one huge switch
  474. # [13:51] <Hixie> hsivonen: as opposed to what?
  475. # [13:51] <hsivonen> Hixie: method per state
  476. # [13:52] <Hixie> wait so you have a method per state in the tokeniser and you're worried about performance of method per state in the tree construction?!?!
  477. # [13:52] <hsivonen> Hixie: these methods are *supposed* to be inlineable
  478. # [13:52] <Hixie> fair enough
  479. # [13:53] <hsivonen> there's no recursion, for example
  480. # [13:53] <hsivonen> the way I've written it, in *theory* allows everything to be inline in one pile of jumps
  481. # [13:53] <hsivonen> in *theory*
  482. # [13:54] <Hixie> he
  483. # [13:54] <Hixie> h
  484. # [13:54] <Hixie> tokeniser changes _nearly_ done
  485. # [13:55] <annevk> "in foreign lands" and tag_name not in magic_list and tag_name not in html_void_list
  486. # [13:55] <annevk> and current_node not in (<math:... ...)
  487. # [13:56] <annevk> though maybe I should declare defeat instead of playing tricky boolean games
  488. # [13:56] <Hixie> you missed the normal html_void_list case :-)
  489. # [14:00] * jgraham needs to catch up on the logs but assuming a pile of changes to the parser are about to land...
  490. # [14:00] <Hixie> some have already landed
  491. # [14:00] <jgraham> I suggest we clean up html5lib to match the spec pre changes and cut a release before adding any of the namespace stuff
  492. # [14:01] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@109.80-202-65.nextgentel.com)
  493. # [14:01] <jgraham> (or at least cut a release branch)
  494. # [14:02] * Quits: tommorris (n=tommorri@dyn891-224.ota.ichosted.org.uk)
  495. # [14:02] <jgraham> Hixie: As long as no one has tried implementing them in html5lib yet it's all good :)
  496. # [14:02] <Hixie> :-)
  497. # [14:04] <hsivonen> I should cut a release too, but I have to get the Maven stuff up to date for that
  498. # [14:04] <annevk> jgraham, fine with me
  499. # [14:04] * annevk is working on specs for some time
  500. # [14:05] * annevk has plenty of choice there...
  501. # [14:05] <jgraham> Great.
  502. # [14:05] * jgraham has to get the 33 currently failing testcases to pass
  503. # [14:05] <hsivonen> I guess I should write a perf test harness to get from guessing about perf to actually measuring it...
  504. # [14:05] * annevk looks at hsivonen
  505. # [14:06] <hsivonen> annevk: I'm pretty sure that all my test check-ins were spec-based
  506. # [14:06] <Hixie> my perf test harness is pretty awesome, wish i could just hand you that
  507. # [14:06] <annevk> hsivonen, joking
  508. # [14:06] <Hixie> (it consists of timing one run through "parse the web")
  509. # [14:06] <hsivonen> aside: I don't like tests getting split to the html5 Google Code project
  510. # [14:07] <Hixie> yes when did that happen -- was that me?
  511. # [14:07] <hsivonen> Hixie: can you call into Java from Sawzall? :-)
  512. # [14:07] <Hixie> i agree that it's dumb
  513. # [14:07] <annevk> that already happened?
  514. # [14:07] <jgraham> I need to change our perf test harness to use cProfile rather than Hotshot
  515. # [14:07] <hsivonen> Hixie: I don't know how it happened
  516. # [14:07] <annevk> who "authorized" that?
  517. # [14:07] <Hixie> annevk: some tests are there, i fear it may have been me back when i checked them in in the first place
  518. # [14:07] * jgraham thinks tbroyer started it
  519. # [14:07] <Hixie> i dunno
  520. # [14:08] <annevk> Hixie, no, you put them in html5lib
  521. # [14:08] <Hixie> hsivonen: i expect you could just use java, google is a big java shop
  522. # [14:08] <Hixie> (amongst other languages)
  523. # [14:08] <Hixie> annevk: ah ok good
  524. # [14:08] <Hixie> well then
  525. # [14:08] <Hixie> i say, nuke the ones in html5
  526. # [14:08] <Hixie> and put them back in html5lib
  527. # [14:09] * Philip` doesn't see anything interestingly relevant in http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/html5lib/log/trunk/testdata
  528. # [14:15] <annevk> ah, http://code.google.com/p/html5/source/browse/trunk/tests/tree-construction/
  529. # [14:16] <Hixie> as a side-effect of the way the changes are being made, i'm removing the parse error from the use of /> syntax on basefont, bgsound, spacer, wbr, and frame elements
  530. # [14:16] * gsnedders wonders whether to complain about implied *LWS in RFC2616bis, as currently it is allowed in the middle of CRLF :P
  531. # [14:16] <annevk> I think he's just experimenting things
  532. # [14:16] <Hixie> annevk: he asked for all tests to be put there
  533. # [14:17] <jgraham> I think he thinks that it's more project neutral or something
  534. # [14:17] <jgraham> I'm not sure there was a good technical reason
  535. # [14:17] <jgraham> And there's a very good licensing reason not to
  536. # [14:17] <Hixie> and the project owner of the "html5" project thinks it is a bad idea
  537. # [14:17] <Philip`> It's annoying that it's not possible to update the HTML5 tests without making html5lib look broken because it fails tests it hasn't been updated for yet
  538. # [14:18] <Hixie> it _is_ broken in those cases :-)
  539. # [14:18] <Hixie> it doesn't just look it :-)
  540. # [14:18] <hsivonen> Maven doesn't really live up to its promise when some of the packages are out of date...
  541. # [14:19] <Philip`> It wouldn't be broken if e.g. it was intentionally trying to implement pre-namespacey HTML5 while someone wanted to add post-namespacey tests
  542. # [14:19] <jgraham> There's a certian amount of tension between the TDD thing of using tests to find regressions and using tests to find spec problems
  543. # [14:20] <annevk> e-mailed implementors@whatwg.org with a note about the location of the tests
  544. # [14:20] <zcorpan_> i wonder if xmlns talismans should be allowed in more places if html fragments are allowed in svg or mathml
  545. # [14:20] <Hixie> Philip`: i was just teasing :-)
  546. # [14:21] <Hixie> zcorpan_: good question
  547. # [14:21] <Hixie> zcorpan_: if you want it, send mail or mention it on http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/New_Vocabularies_Solution
  548. # [14:22] * zcorpan_ sends mail
  549. # [14:22] <annevk> thinking about it, just putting xmlns in the right namespace might work, but what if the value is incorrect?
  550. # [14:22] * annevk wonders how that works
  551. # [14:23] <zcorpan_> annevk: nothing bad happens
  552. # [14:23] <annevk> I know
  553. # [14:23] <annevk> but what about conformance checkers
  554. # [14:23] <zcorpan_> what about them?
  555. # [14:23] <annevk> they should maybe flag that
  556. # [14:24] <zcorpan_> yes
  557. # [14:24] <annevk> where in XML they don't have to
  558. # [14:24] <zcorpan_> you mean that the validation layer doesn't see the namespace declarations?
  559. # [14:24] <annevk> in theory it shouldn't have to see it
  560. # [14:24] <Hixie> i would only allow xmlns="" on elements that cross boundaries, and would flag them if they are wrongly set
  561. # [14:25] <annevk> if you solve it at the parsing level that would work, yes
  562. # [14:25] <Hixie> right
  563. # [14:25] <zcorpan_> perhaps it can be checked in the parser instead of in the validation layer
  564. # [14:25] * zcorpan_ is too slow
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  566. # [14:34] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: fwiw, currently the V.nu validation layer doesn't see permitted xmlns. the parser checks for it and eats it.
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  575. # [14:34] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: ok
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  584. # [14:38] <annevk> jgraham, is http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/html5lib/changeset?new=trunk%2Ftestdata%401127&old=trunk%2Ftestdata%401123 because I implemented table whitespace handling incorrectly?
  585. # [14:40] <jgraham> annevk: IIRC you just missed the necessary methods in the parser classes
  586. # [14:40] <jgraham> s/parser/phase/
  587. # [14:40] <jgraham> Lachy spotted it
  588. # [14:40] <annevk> oh :(
  589. # [14:40] <Hixie> hsivonen: does your validator catch duplicate IDs?
  590. # [14:41] <Hixie> hsivonen: i think it missed a duplicateid in the html5 spec, fwiw
  591. # [14:43] <hsivonen> Hixie: it should. If it didn't, it is a bug.
  592. # [14:44] <hsivonen> Hixie: it doesn't check IDREFs in MathML yet
  593. # [14:44] <hsivonen> nor hashed ID references in SVG
  594. # [14:44] <Hixie> check the html5 spec on the whatwg site at the moment
  595. # [14:44] <Hixie> id="parsing-main-inselect" is there twice, i believe
  596. # [14:44] <Hixie> and i didn't see an error
  597. # [14:44] <Hixie> though i could be mistaken
  598. # [14:45] <Hixie> (just fixed it when i noticed it)
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  607. # [14:45] <Hixie> (but haven't regenned yet)
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  616. # [14:47] <hsivonen> Hixie: thanks. I made a copy of the spec and will investigate
  617. # [14:47] <Hixie> np
  618. # [14:48] <annevk> hsivonen, window.onabort = function() { enableValidateButton() } or some such would be nice
  619. # [14:49] <annevk> (if that works, not sure)
  620. # [14:49] <annevk> btw, it seems duplicate ID checking is broken
  621. # [14:49] <annevk> for a simple document <body id=x><p id=x> it doesn't report errors
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  623. # [14:50] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks. http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=150
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  640. # [14:58] <Hixie> ok it is done
  641. # [14:58] <Hixie> regenning now
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  643. # [14:59] <annevk> i think i'll post about math and graphics too
  644. # [14:59] <hsivonen> I wonder why Maven can't download GPG-signed files over HTTP or something like that
  645. # [14:59] <hsivonen> letting them fetch stuff using SSH seems excessive
  646. # [14:59] <annevk> seems like the kind of thing people might want to shout at :)
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  655. # [15:00] <annevk> Hixie, foreign lands was way better :(
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  664. # [15:01] <annevk> it had this nice fairy tale ring to it
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  673. # [15:01] <Hixie> i agree :-)
  674. # [15:02] <Hixie> i love the text interface to validator.nu
  675. # [15:02] <Hixie> i love being able to validate the spec in my script while the spec is being regenned
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  684. # [15:03] <hsivonen> Hixie: do you have a spec for the line pragma enhancement and a reason why it belongs on the server and not in the client?
  685. # [15:04] <hsivonen> is it just adding a constant to line numbers?
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  687. # [15:04] <hsivonen> (where the constant may be negative)
  688. # [15:04] <Hixie> subtracting, in my case
  689. # [15:04] <Hixie> right
  690. # [15:04] <annevk> Hixie, title needs to be title=""-ed
  691. # [15:04] <Hixie> i have two files
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  700. # [15:04] <Hixie> header + main source
  701. # [15:04] <annevk> (the <code>title</code> element in the SVG ...
  702. # [15:04] <Hixie> i validate the concatenation
  703. # [15:04] <Hixie> but edit only the main source
  704. # [15:04] <Hixie> i'm open to other options
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  713. # [15:05] <hsivonen> Hixie: I guess the other option would be doing the math in the client script
  714. # [15:05] <Hixie> but right now i have to first output |wc -l header|, and then go to the given line, and tell emacs to move by the given offset
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  716. # [15:05] <hsivonen> Hixie: are you using my client or your own?
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  725. # [15:05] <Hixie> i'm using wget
  726. # [15:05] <zcorpan_> "Elements that are from namespaces other than the HTML namespace and that convey content but not metadata, are embedded content for the purposes of the content models defined in this specification. (For example, MathML, or SVG.)"
  727. # [15:05] <Hixie> (actually, curl, but same idea)
  728. # [15:05] <annevk> also, the CDATA block state is not linked
  729. # [15:06] <hsivonen> Hixie: GET or POST, out of curiosity?
  730. # [15:06] <annevk> maybe that's because it's named CDATA state later on
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  739. # [15:06] <zcorpan_> ...seems to contradict to the r1401 checkin
  740. # [15:06] <Hixie> hsivonen: GET with URI, i believe
  741. # [15:07] <Hixie> zcorpan_: valid point
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  743. # [15:08] <hsivonen> Hixie: ok.
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  761. # [15:10] <zcorpan_> for some reason i thought the 1998 and Math were supposed to be the other way around
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  763. # [15:11] <Hixie> i just fixed editorial problems that you've all listed
  764. # [15:12] <Hixie> bed time now
  765. # [15:12] <hsivonen> hmm. I wonder what the right filename and mime convention with .sig, .asc and .gpg is...
  766. # [15:12] <MikeSmith> Hixie - editorial nit: when you use "i.e.", it should always be followed by a comma
  767. # [15:13] <zcorpan_> Hixie: "A start tag, if the current node is a title element in the SVG namespace." links to the html <title> definition
  768. # [15:13] <MikeSmith> (i.e., not foreign)
  769. # [15:13] <Philip`> Hmm, Opera's MathML support doesn't seem to even cope with integrals
  770. # [15:14] <Hixie> zcorpan_: thought i fixed that
  771. # [15:14] <Hixie> MikeSmith: really?
  772. # [15:14] <Hixie> anyway
  773. # [15:14] <Hixie> bed time
  774. # [15:14] <Hixie> nn
  775. # [15:14] <Philip`> (Also its superscript integral pi looks like a box)
  776. # [15:14] <zcorpan_> nn
  777. # [15:14] <Philip`> (Uh)
  778. # [15:14] <Philip`> s/integral/italic/
  779. # [15:14] <annevk> hmm, the more difficult issues are still not solved :p
  780. # [15:15] <MikeSmith> Hixie - yeah, see any style guide (MLA or Chicago manual or whatever)
  781. # [15:15] <annevk> such as the magic HTML list and SVG fixups
  782. # [15:15] <MikeSmith> http://andromeda.rutgers.edu/~jlynch/Writing/e.html
  783. # [15:15] <MikeSmith> or http://www.colorado.edu/Publications/styleguide/abbrev.html#ieeg
  784. # [15:16] <MikeSmith> annevk - what's the magic HTML list?
  785. # [15:16] <Philip`> "Both "i.e." and "e.g." should have periods after each letter and be followed by a comma."
  786. # [15:16] <Philip`> That's only a SHOULD
  787. # [15:16] <zcorpan_> annevk: they don't seem very difficult to me, although the html list needs research
  788. # [15:16] <MikeSmith> Philip` - heh
  789. # [15:17] <Philip`> so it's fine to ignore that requirement when it make your text look silly
  790. # [15:17] <Philip`> *makes
  791. # [15:17] <MikeSmith> it should be a SHALT
  792. # [15:17] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: tags that close <math> and <svg>
  793. # [15:17] <annevk> MikeSmith, a list of element names that lets you escape the foreign lands
  794. # [15:17] <MikeSmith> ah
  795. # [15:17] <annevk> with a parse error, but at least you're home safe
  796. # [15:17] <zcorpan_> :)
  797. # [15:18] <MikeSmith> I can see we going to have some fun with "foreign elements" as a term
  798. # [15:19] <annevk> I suggested "in foreign content". I regret that now, as Hixie had "in foreign lands"
  799. # [15:19] <zcorpan_> we should bikeshed content vs lands on the list!
  800. # [15:19] <Philip`> Why is it foreign, when it's a proper part of HTML?
  801. # [15:20] <Philip`> We should set up a forum poll
  802. # [15:20] <zcorpan_> Philip`: go ahead :)
  803. # [15:20] <zcorpan_> http://forums.whatwg.org/
  804. # [15:22] * jgraham suggests a whatwg green vs w3c blue poll
  805. # [15:23] <jgraham> especially if we can somehow turn it into a flamewar
  806. # [15:23] <zcorpan_> jgraham: go ahead :P
  807. # [15:23] <Philip`> It's obvious that the green would win, because it's so much better
  808. # [15:23] <MikeSmith> you guys should call yourselves the WAG WG
  809. # [15:24] <MikeSmith> wag it the 17th/18th-century sense of the word
  810. # [15:25] <zcorpan_> "A person who is fond of making jokes"?
  811. # [15:26] <Philip`> "A mischievous boy (often as a mother's term of endearment to a baby boy); in wider application, a youth, young man, a ‘fellow’, ‘chap’. Obs."?
  812. # [15:27] <Philip`> Actually that's mostly 16th century
  813. # [15:28] * MikeSmith remembers Robert Burns poem "Epitaph for a Wag"
  814. # [15:28] <Philip`> ("1573-80 TUSSER Husb. (1878) 177 For euerie trifle leaue ianting thy nag, but rather make lackey of Jack boie thy wag." - hmm, I lack sufficient backward compatibility to read that)
  815. # [15:28] <MikeSmith> about not stepping a guy's grave because he might've been your father
  816. # [15:29] <annevk> ah, it was me _and_ Hixie (regarding moving tests)
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  818. # [15:29] <jgraham> Philip`: But green is a major accessibility issue because some people are Red/Green colour blind so they might think the spec is red and dangerous. You're just a typical heartless WHATWGer ;)
  819. # [15:31] <Philip`> jgraham: Some people are blue-yellow colourblind so they would think the spec is a sunflower and could suffer terrible gardening accidents
  820. # [15:32] <Dashiva> I wonder if red/green colorblind people are more likely to say "green looks like red" or "red looks like green"
  821. # [15:33] <jgraham> Philip`: You should contact the wai people urgently.
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  823. # [15:37] <Philip`> Usually I try to avoid the problems in practice by just making sure things looks readable when printed in black-and-white
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  825. # [15:47] <annevk> I think we can not continue this discussion until the PFWG has provided us with a formal reply.
  826. # [15:47] <jgraham> Hmm. Where does the spec define that doctype tokens cannot have a null public id or system id
  827. # [15:47] <jgraham> ?
  828. # [15:47] <annevk> after the tokenizer it seems
  829. # [15:47] <annevk> when the doctype node is constructed, to be specific
  830. # [15:48] <jgraham> ah, OK.
  831. # [15:48] <jgraham> I was looking in the tokenizer
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  835. # [16:07] <MikeSmith> "I think we need a way to coax authors into more semantic seriousness."
  836. # [16:07] * MikeSmith is re-reading some parts of new-vocabs thread
  837. # [16:07] <MikeSmith> no clue what "semantic seriousness" is
  838. # [16:08] * MikeSmith trying to get a read on where this guy's coming from
  839. # [16:09] <MikeSmith> OK, http://www.albany.edu/~hammond/ provides some clues
  840. # [16:09] <MikeSmith> "Generalized Extensible LaTeX-Like MarkUp (GELLMU) is the name of my project that originated with the aim of building a bridge from traditional LaTeX to the new world of XML languages. "
  841. # [16:12] <MikeSmith> "HTML is a rather low-powered member of the SGML family. The notion of “power” for a language under the umbrella of SGML has to do with the number of available translations to other document languages, both within and without SGML."
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  848. # [17:11] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: " (except the langattribute maps to xml:lang)." s/lang/lang / in http://about.validator.nu/
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  867. # [20:18] <MikeSmith> Hixie - about "Is there something that grows downwards that we could use as a metaphor here instead of 'stack'?" (r1344)
  868. # [20:18] <MikeSmith> sinkhole
  869. # [20:19] <Philip`> Stalactite?
  870. # [20:25] <MikeSmith> icicle
  871. # [20:25] <Philip`> Beard
  872. # [20:25] <MikeSmith> heh
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  875. # [20:52] <zcorpan_> "Attributes may be separated from each other by one or more space characters." hmm, shouldn't that be a must?
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  877. # [21:00] <zcorpan_> "If an attribute using the X attribute syntax is to be followed by another attribute, then there must be a space character separating the two." for all 4 values of X
  878. # [21:01] <zcorpan_> seems needlessly repetitive :)
  879. # [21:01] <zcorpan_> (although perhaps the spec should be reverted to not require spaces between attributes; i'm not sure it's helping or hurting)
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  881. # [21:27] <zcorpan_> should "<![CDATA[" be case-insensitive?
  882. # [21:27] <zcorpan_> i mean, everything else in text/html is case-insensitive
  883. # [21:31] <zcorpan_> if cdata blocks are only supported in foreign lands, will authors use <math><mtext><![CDATA[ instead of <pre> or <xmp> when they don't want to escape their text with entities?
  884. # [21:33] <zcorpan_> how does foreign lands affect innerHTML?
  885. # [21:46] * zcorpan_ notes that cdata blocks suffer from the copy-paste cargo-cult problem
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  887. # [21:47] <zcorpan_> blah blah <svg> ... <![CDATA[ ... </svg> blah
  888. # [21:52] <zcorpan_> why ban cdata blocks in svg <desc> etc?
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  904. # [23:49] <Hixie> ew, yes, the CDATA blocks do suffer from cargo-cult issues
  905. # [23:49] <Hixie> crap
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  907. # [23:50] <Hixie> oh i bet there are totally pages that foul up because of that
  908. # [23:50] <Hixie> crap crap crap
  909. # [23:51] <hsivonen> terminating CDATA on > would avoid that problem but would be very very wrong XML-wise
  910. # [23:51] <annevk> http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2008/apr08/04-05LetterPR.mspx hits for "share": 10, "employee": 1
  911. # [23:51] <annevk> just "shareholder": 7
  912. # [23:51] <Hixie> hsivonen: yeah...
  913. # [23:52] <Hixie> hsivonen: or even <
  914. # [23:53] <Hixie> i'll make a note to study this
  915. # [23:53] <annevk> thought: make svg:style and svg:script trigger CDATA and drop <![cdata[
  916. # [23:54] <Hixie> yeah that might work
  917. # [23:54] <hsivonen> problem: copypaste
  918. # [23:54] <Hixie> how so?
  919. # [23:55] <Hixie> you mean if people use cdata in <mtext> or something?
  920. # [23:55] <hsivonen> no, I mean XML-style scripts would parse differently
  921. # [23:55] <annevk> parsing <svg:script> as <html:script> within text/html would also be way more backwards compatible
  922. # [23:56] <Hixie> hsivonen: we could have a separate mode that alsos strips <![CDATA[ and ]]>
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  924. # Session Close: Sun Apr 06 00:00:00 2008

The end :)