/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-04-07 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Apr 07 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:03] <jgraham> "So HTTP 1.0 was a failure too? And DOM Level 1? And CSS1? And the first season of Buffy? And the first Feynman lecture? And the first act of Macbeth? Maybe this paragraph is a failure too, since it's followed by more paragraphs. :-)"
  4. # [00:03] <jgraham> Is a wonderful sentence, with one error; the *whole* of Buffy was a failure
  5. # [00:04] * jgraham hides
  6. # [00:05] <annevk> now you'll get a ban :p
  7. # [00:07] <jgraham> What for failing to notice that it's actually 5 sentences?
  8. # [00:07] * jgraham tries to look innocent
  9. # [00:07] <jgraham> s/5/7/
  10. # [00:09] <Hixie> jgraham: yeah i wasn't a big fan of buffy (especially seasons 1-4)
  11. # [00:09] <Hixie> 6.6 was a good episode
  12. # [00:10] <Hixie> and spike and dawn made 5-7 watchable
  13. # [00:10] <Hixie> but i'm just not a fan of whedon's writing style -- it's good, just not my kettle of fish :-)
  14. # [00:11] <jgraham> I have friends who were really into Buffy but I'm never really got it.
  15. # [00:19] * Joins: qwert666_ (n=qwert666@dak171.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)
  16. # [00:21] <annevk> hmm, if we do <script> and <style> using CDATA stripping <![CDATA[ would help authors...
  17. # [00:21] <annevk> but it might be problematic for E4X and all...
  18. # [00:21] * annevk shrugs
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  20. # [00:25] <Hixie> e4x?
  21. # [00:25] <Hixie> how so?
  22. # [00:25] <gsnedders> Hixie: But HTTP 1.0 was a failure :P
  23. # [00:25] <annevk> not sure, but I remember <!-- being a problem for it
  24. # [00:26] <Hixie> annevk: eh?
  25. # [00:26] <Hixie> gsnedders: i hope html5 is that much of a failure
  26. # [00:27] <gsnedders> Hixie: So almost everything will move away as soon as HTML6 is out?
  27. # [00:27] <annevk> Hixie, https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=311071
  28. # [00:28] <annevk> Hixie, no idea what the exact problem is, there's no testcases, examples, etc.
  29. # [00:31] * weinig is now known as weinig|away
  30. # [00:32] <annevk> Hixie, there's more here https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=309242
  31. # [00:32] <annevk> Hixie, and here https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=311157
  32. # [00:33] <annevk> Hixie, though I suppose that if we only strip <![cdata[ at the start it might be ok
  33. # [00:37] <jwalden> frankly, I don't think you should worry about E4X
  34. # [00:38] <jwalden> it's rarely used, the spec's not very good, rarely implemented, and if it complicates parsing (which it would), you should fall back on external scripts or entity encoding
  35. # [00:38] * Quits: qwert666 (n=qwert666@dak171.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) (Connection timed out)
  36. # [00:40] <annevk> the problem is a combination of existing SVG content, current parsing of <script> in XML, parsing of <script> in HTML, and the desire to make existing SVG content work in HTML
  37. # [00:41] <annevk> (well, and existing HTML content that contains <svg><script> presumably...)
  38. # [00:43] <jgraham> annevk: html5lib produces a parse error when it encounters EOF in innerHTML mode and there is > 1 tag on the stack of open elements, which is commented as so: "# XXX This is not what the specification says. Not sure what to do
  39. # [00:43] <jgraham> # here."
  40. # [00:44] <jgraham> Do you mind if we switch that error off at the moment to agree with the testcases and presumably the spec
  41. # [00:44] <annevk> no, go ahead
  42. # [00:44] <annevk> though please check the spec if you plan on removing the comment :)
  43. # [00:44] <jgraham> I won't remove the comment
  44. # [00:50] <jgraham> Hmm. It might just be the testcase that's wrong. The code looks pretty unlike the spec. Maybe I should try sleeping first and thinking later :)
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  54. # [02:05] <takkaria> annevk: on your latest post, first para, s/totaled/totalled/ and s/amount/number/
  55. # [02:07] <annevk> ty, fixed
  56. # [02:08] <annevk> night all
  57. # [02:08] * annevk -> bed
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  66. # [03:06] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Apr/0020.html
  67. # [03:06] * annevk can't sleep (for those who read the earlier message)
  68. # [03:20] <BenMillard> it was snowing here yesterday morning...very unusual for this part of the UK
  69. # [03:21] <BenMillard> especially in April!
  70. # [03:24] <Philip`> Unfortunately it had all melted by the time I woke up (around 1pm) :-(
  71. # [03:24] <BenMillard> I took some photos...I suck at doing that, though they will appear on my blog eventually
  72. # [03:29] <tomg> it was nice
  73. # [03:29] <tomg> was shocked at how white it was
  74. # [03:31] <BenMillard> indeed, it was proper powder snow
  75. # [03:31] <tomg> only light snow was forecast
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  77. # [03:34] * Hixie e-mails the xhtml2 group
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  79. # [03:49] <MikeSmith> BenMillard - can you give a brief summary of the goals of your ongoing table work?
  80. # [03:49] <MikeSmith> is there are particular hypothesis you're working under?
  81. # [03:50] <BenMillard> it's mostly to understand how tables get authored in reality, so we can design HTML5 features to be more realistic and robust
  82. # [03:50] <BenMillard> particularly the table header association mechanism
  83. # [03:51] <BenMillard> where "we" means HTMLWG in general
  84. # [03:52] <BenMillard> I should probably summarise the goals in the document :P
  85. # [03:53] <MikeSmith> BenMillard - yeah, that would be useful, I think
  86. # [03:54] <MikeSmith> summary of what you've done so far, and what else you want to do going forward
  87. # [03:54] <MikeSmith> what specific product/deliverable you have in mind
  88. # [03:54] <BenMillard> the document starts with a "Numbers" section which summarises what's been done
  89. # [03:55] <MikeSmith> for example, we could end up producing/publishing a W3C Note from it
  90. # [03:55] <MikeSmith> BenMillard - what's the URL?
  91. # [03:55] <BenMillard> oh, sorry I thought you were looking at it! it's here: http://sitesurgeon.co.uk/tables/
  92. # [03:56] <BenMillard> deliverables include helping develop the HTML5 header association algorithm with other HTMLWG participants (James Graham and Simon Pieters, mostly)
  93. # [03:57] <MikeSmith> BenMillard - hmm, seems like that wouldn't be a specific deliverable but instead something the deliverable/document could be used for
  94. # [03:58] <MikeSmith> have you gotten much feedback from WAI folks about it yet?
  95. # [03:58] <BenMillard> I don't recall talking to any WAI people about it yet
  96. # [03:58] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/2003/entities/2007xml/unicode.xml has a last-modified date of 1970
  97. # [03:58] <Hixie> go w3c!
  98. # [03:58] <MikeSmith> heh
  99. # [03:59] <BenMillard> MikeSmith, it was done in my spare time so I've not been tracking feedback around it
  100. # [03:59] * Hixie removes the -N from his command line so that hsi script will always download the file instead of assuming that it has an accurate date
  101. # [04:00] <Hixie> oh actually
  102. # [04:00] <Hixie> that could be a minefield bug
  103. # [04:00] <Hixie> with xslt
  104. # [04:00] <Hixie> nevermind
  105. # [04:00] <MikeSmith> Hixie - you mean the headers?
  106. # [04:00] <MikeSmith> Last-Modified: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 10:46:09
  107. # [04:00] <Hixie> yeah
  108. # [04:00] <Hixie> yeah, minefield bug with xslt
  109. # [04:01] <Hixie> lovely
  110. # [04:01] <MikeSmith> ah, OK
  111. # [04:01] <MikeSmith> go minefield!
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  113. # [04:02] <BenMillard> MikeSmith, yes the document itself does not contain a product
  114. # [04:02] <MikeSmith> BenMillard - fwiw, I think it might be worthwhile to post the URL and short summary to one of the WAI lists
  115. # [04:02] <MikeSmith> if you've not done that already
  116. # [04:03] <BenMillard> it's not under active development at the moment; I can't afford the time
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  119. # [04:04] <BenMillard> I'd like it to be used by anyone who finds it useful, though
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  121. # [04:04] * MikeSmith is getting lots of "Connection reset by peer http://intertwingly.net/blog/index.atom" when trying to get Sam's feed
  122. # [04:04] <MikeSmith> BenMillard - I see
  123. # [04:05] <BenMillard> I've been seeking sponsorship from various places to make the work more sustainable
  124. # [04:05] <BenMillard> I took the whole of last month off work to try and speed that up, but haven't quite got there
  125. # [04:10] <MikeSmith> BenMillard - I would think investing some time in doing a little awareness-raising about might help with getting others to consider sponsoring further work
  126. # [04:10] <MikeSmith> e.g., by posting about it to WAI lists or elsewhere
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  130. # [04:11] <BenMillard> MikeSmith, that's a good idea. can you suggest a specific list for me to post it to? I've only sent it to public-html before now.
  131. # [04:13] <MikeSmith> BenMillard - no, I can't suggest any specific list. I don't follow them. Karl Dubost might know
  132. # [04:14] <MikeSmith> might be worthwhile for you to get in touch with Michael Cooper and/or Shawn Henry
  133. # [04:14] <MikeSmith> both W3C staff for WAI
  134. # [04:15] <BenMillard> I've spoken to Shawn Henry in person in November 2007; I could ask her
  135. # [04:18] <MikeSmith> BenMillard - yeah, she would certainly be able to tell you
  136. # [04:19] * MikeSmith drops off to head into office
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  138. # [04:19] <BenMillard> MikeSmith, thanks for your advice about this. I'm a noob when it comes to W3C!
  139. # [04:19] <BenMillard> oh bugger, he left just before I sent that
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  144. # [04:43] <jwalden> BenMillard: ^
  145. # [04:46] <MikeSmith> BenMillard - I'm a noob too.. I've worked for the W3C only for a year now. most people here actually have a lot more experience with the W3C than I do
  146. # [04:48] <MikeSmith> I'm sort of like a foreign element that's been inserted, and not clear yet if it's going to make things worse or better
  147. # [04:50] <jwalden> <foreignElement id="MikeSmith"/>
  148. # [04:57] <BenMillard> MikeSmith, that's cool
  149. # [04:57] * MikeSmith reads dbaron's latest
  150. # [04:58] <MikeSmith> http://dbaron.org/log/20080406-acid3
  151. # [04:58] <MikeSmith> "Teaching to the Test" (on HTML5 and Acid3 and Firefox)
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  164. # [05:25] <BenMillard> MikeSmith, I've updated the tables document: http://sitesurgeon.co.uk/tables/
  165. # [05:26] <BenMillard> away for lunch now (at 4am local time!)
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  171. # [06:30] <BenMillard> MikeSmith, I've updated the tables document http://sitesurgeon.co.uk/tables/ is this better?
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  175. # [06:54] <MikeSmith> BenMillard - which parts did you change/add?
  176. # [06:54] <MikeSmith> The Goals and Deliverables part?
  177. # [06:54] <BenMillard> that's right
  178. # [06:55] <BenMillard> I also moved the Feedback section to the top to emphasise the openness of it's development
  179. # [06:57] <BenMillard> MikeSmith, using the UserName, Message format is more compatible with IRC clients and the #whatwg log than using UserName - Message
  180. # [06:57] <BenMillard> e.g.:
  181. # [06:57] <BenMillard> BenMillard, which parts did you change/add?
  182. # [06:57] <MikeSmith> um, thanks for the tip
  183. # [06:58] <Hixie> personally i'm more of a foo: bar fan than a foo, bar fan
  184. # [06:59] <BenMillard> either of those are compatible with IRC clients and the log, afaict, but foo - bar is not
  185. # [07:00] <MikeSmith> BenMillard - I don't know what you mean by compatible with IRC clients and the log
  186. # [07:00] <MikeSmith> not that I really care to get into a discussion about it
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  188. # [07:01] <BenMillard> the highlight lines directed at you when either of the conventional methods are followed
  189. # [07:01] <BenMillard> *they
  190. # [07:02] <BenMillard> so if you address me as BenMillard, message it gets highlighted and I'm more likely to see it
  191. # [07:02] <BenMillard> (or BenMillard: message)
  192. # [07:03] <Hixie> either works with a decent irc client like irssi :-)
  193. # [07:03] <MikeSmith> BenMillard - yeah, I'd say that's problem between you and your IRC client
  194. # [07:03] * jwalden snickers
  195. # [07:04] <jwalden> don't most clients get set off when your nick appears anywhere in the line, surrounded by \b ?
  196. # [07:06] <BenMillard> the , and : forms are the only ones I've found interoperable...is there a standard for this?
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  198. # [07:07] <jwalden> standard? IRC? hah!
  199. # [07:08] <jwalden> or so I've been led to believe
  200. # [07:10] <MikeSmith> I think the standard for IRC is "please leave your %s at the door"
  201. # [07:11] <MikeSmith> jwalden - fwiw, XChat highlights the nick of the user who uses your nick in a message
  202. # [07:11] <MikeSmith> not your own nick
  203. # [07:11] <MikeSmith> which sorta makes sense to me
  204. # [07:12] <MikeSmith> I know my own name
  205. # [07:12] <MikeSmith> (most of the time)
  206. # [07:12] <jwalden> I used the phrase "set off" because it probably differs across clients; Chatzilla highlights the individual message, I assume others do other thigns
  207. # [07:12] <MikeSmith> the useful piece of information for this case seems to be, who's calling?
  208. # [07:12] <jwalden> s/gns/ngs/
  209. # [07:14] <BenMillard> the IRC logs for this channel are athttp://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ and it support both the , and : forms. so if you use one of those forms, while in this channel, the highlighting feature will work in the logs
  210. # [07:14] <BenMillard> although I agree that any message which mentions a user's name should light up in that user's client
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  223. # [08:20] <hsivonen> http://bitworking.org/news/317/Revisionist-XHistory
  224. # [08:20] <othermaciej> hi all
  225. # [08:21] <hsivonen> hi
  226. # [08:35] <hsivonen> surprisingly, one of the hotspots of Validator.nu is TreeSet doing a silly number of compares when the inserted items are already ordered or reverse-ordered.
  227. # [08:36] <hsivonen> too bad the JDK and Commons Collections don't seem to have head/tail-biased linked list-backed SortedSets.
  228. # [08:37] <othermaciej> that's not a good way to make a sorted data structure
  229. # [08:38] <othermaciej> (it's a good way to make an ordered associative data structure)
  230. # [08:38] <hsivonen> othermaciej: what's not good? TreeSet?
  231. # [08:38] <othermaciej> no, a linked-list backed set
  232. # [08:38] <othermaciej> a TreeSet (assuming it's a balanced tree) is a good way to make a balanced associative structure
  233. # [08:39] <othermaciej> but inserting N items into it should be N log N so it's surprising it would be a hot spot
  234. # [08:39] <hsivonen> othermaciej: why not if you know the insertion will always be either to head of the list or the next from head?
  235. # [08:39] <othermaciej> if you have items that are already ordered, you would want to use a ListHashSet
  236. # [08:39] <othermaciej> (I think that's what Java calls it)
  237. # [08:39] * weinig is now known as weinig|zZz
  238. # [08:40] <hsivonen> othermaciej: the insertions are *almost* ordered
  239. # [08:40] <hsivonen> that is, the new insertion is most often to the head of the list, but sometimes a slot or two further
  240. # [08:41] <hsivonen> (LinkedHashSet is not what I need here)
  241. # [08:41] <othermaciej> that doesn't have an insertBefore?
  242. # [08:41] <othermaciej> (too bad, it should be easy to do)
  243. # [08:43] <hsivonen> it appears it does not
  244. # [08:47] <hsivonen> the show source feature ends up comparing locations 29 times the number of location objects
  245. # [08:47] <hsivonen> that's not good
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  249. # [09:16] <BenMillard> annevk, you wrote "heh, RDF fanatics use " and <em> for quotes" and I see things like that quite frequently on the blogs of markup/accessibility enthusiasts/experts
  250. # [09:20] <BenMillard> indeed, it's hard to find anyone using <q>...present company excepted :)
  251. # [09:21] <BenMillard> getting the right punctuation seems more important to authors than using the right element
  252. # [09:25] <jwalden> problem being q's quotation behavior (CSS's, that is) is underspecified, as dbaron tells me
  253. # [09:26] <BenMillard> Hixie, I made editorial changes to http://sitesurgeon.co.uk/tables/ which include clarifying the markup used by each group in "How Authors Indicate Headers in Data Tables". They were a bit vague before. Let me know if this changes anything.
  254. # [09:26] <Hixie> k
  255. # [09:27] <Hixie> i probably won't look at table stuff for some time
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  266. # [10:17] * zcorpan_ did not know about Document.strictErrorChecking
  267. # [10:18] * zcorpan_ will define in dom5core what happens when it is false
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  270. # [10:32] <BenMillard> Philip`, my (badly taken) photos of UK snow are now blogged: http://projectcerbera.com/blog/2008/04#day06
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  278. # [10:54] <jwalden> oh man
  279. # [10:54] <jwalden> that looks AWESOME
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  287. # [12:03] <hsivonen> othermaciej: swiching to HeadBiasedSortedSet and TailBiasetSortedSet changed the comparison patterns to the better by approximately a factor of 29
  288. # [12:04] <hsivonen> I don't know what kind of balanced tree TreeSet has, but it sure compares a *lot*
  289. # [12:05] <othermaciej> how big is your data set?
  290. # [12:05] <hsivonen> othermaciej: the HTML 5 spec
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  292. # [12:05] <hsivonen> about 16000 items in the set
  293. # [12:06] <othermaciej> log base 2 of that is 14
  294. # [12:06] <othermaciej> must not be that well balanced
  295. # [12:06] <othermaciej> (well, close to 14)
  296. # [12:06] <hsivonen> or it compares everything twice
  297. # [12:06] <hsivonen> or something
  298. # [12:07] <hsivonen> the next big hotspots are IO and XPath
  299. # [12:09] <hsivonen> making IO go away is hard, but making XPath go away is quite doable and something I want to do anyway
  300. # [12:10] <othermaciej> I am still somewhat surprised that inserting into a tree-based data structure could be the top hot spot for a program
  301. # [12:10] <hsivonen> doh brainfart re compares everything twice
  302. # [12:11] <hsivonen> anyway, the profiler data is what it is.
  303. # [12:16] <othermaciej> sorting an already-sorted 16000 element array in JavaScript takes 10 milliseconds
  304. # [12:16] <othermaciej> (on Safari on a decent machine)
  305. # [12:16] <othermaciej> I would suspect something is broken about TreeSet
  306. # [12:19] <hsivonen> the factor 29 wasn't a time factor but number of invocations of compareTo factor
  307. # [12:19] <hsivonen> so it can't be CPU timing weirdness with the profiler
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  313. # [12:48] <zcorpan> 2137 entities
  314. # [12:49] <zcorpan> it's like learning simplified chinese
  315. # [12:50] <hsivonen> I think this entity business is a bad idea, but I haven't gotten around to sending mail yet
  316. # [12:52] <hsivonen> annevk: re blog: http://www.photobasement.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/quotationmarks.jpg
  317. # [12:54] <zcorpan> wiki syndrome?
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  319. # [13:13] <annevk> zcorpan, fwiw, I think you should drop the strict error reporting thing from dom5
  320. # [13:17] <jruderman> hsivonen: nice photo
  321. # [13:20] <gsnedders> Philip`: http://pastebin.ca/974108
  322. # [13:23] * Joins: roc (n=roc@CPE-124-181-181-187.vic.bigpond.net.au)
  323. # [13:24] <zcorpan> annevk: isn't that too late given acid3?
  324. # [13:25] <zcorpan> annevk: or do you mean just drop the attribute and leave the strict behavior intact?
  325. # [13:26] <annevk> what does acid3 have to do with anything?
  326. # [13:26] <zcorpan> it checks that createElementNS('...', 'foo::') raises an exception, e.g.
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  328. # [13:29] <annevk> I meant the method on document, fwiw
  329. # [13:32] <zcorpan> ok
  330. # [13:32] <zcorpan> although it would be nice to be able to create an html5 parser in js
  331. # [13:32] <hsivonen> so here I was parsing XML
  332. # [13:32] <hsivonen> and it went really slowly
  333. # [13:32] <annevk> zcorpan, document.innerHTML
  334. # [13:33] <hsivonen> until I realized I should prevent it from fetching DTDs from w3.org...
  335. # [13:33] <zcorpan> annevk: true, the dom3core attribute doesn't help legacy browsers anyway
  336. # [13:35] * zcorpan uses del.icio.us as his dom5core issue tracker
  337. # [13:48] <annevk> hmm, entity changes are impossible to track using web-apps-tracker
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  345. # [14:13] <Philip`> gsnedders: How come so many people spell "connection" wrong, but get every other header correct?
  346. # [14:14] <gsnedders> Philip`: there are plenty of rare mistakes, though
  347. # [14:14] <gsnedders> Philip`: like spaces and not hyphens comes up a fair bit
  348. # [14:15] <gsnedders> Philip`: but cneonction is caused by a proxy, I can't remember which
  349. # [14:15] <gsnedders> Philip`: it was to avoid keeping the connection open, IIRC
  350. # [14:15] <gsnedders> Philip`: there was a bizarre reason for it
  351. # [14:16] <Philip`> Ah, that's what http://www.nextthing.org/archives/2005/08/07/fun-with-http-headers says
  352. # [14:16] <gsnedders> the web is weird.
  353. # [14:18] <toruvinn> gsnedders, my guess would be the 'neon proxy', there was something like that.
  354. # [14:19] <Philip`> ("... I had a database with 2,686,155 page responses and 23,699,737 response headers. The actual downloading of all of this took about a week." - that sounds really quite slow)
  355. # [14:19] <toruvinn> haha, awesome page, Philip`.
  356. # [14:19] <toruvinn> thanks.
  357. # [14:21] <gsnedders> how do you plot something using gnuplot from a data file taking the log of one column of data?
  358. # [14:21] <Philip`> gsnedders: "set logscale x 2" might be what you want
  359. # [14:23] <gsnedders> Philip`: no, y
  360. # [14:23] <Philip`> or "plot 'foo.dat' using 1:log($2) ..." might be
  361. # [14:23] <gsnedders> But that's good enough :)
  362. # [14:24] <gsnedders> it still shows a huge long tail
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  364. # [14:28] <Philip`> Everything has a long tail :-)
  365. # [14:30] <annevk> from the blog: "Can we get OOXML in HTML5 too? They seem to be very similar in their approaches to standardisation."
  366. # [14:30] <annevk> wtf, really...
  367. # [14:40] <Philip`> annevk: You might need to be more specific than "the blog", since there are several
  368. # [14:41] <annevk> oops, s/the/my/
  369. # [14:41] <Philip`> Ah, that narrows it down sufficiently
  370. # [14:41] <zcorpan> annevk's blog is *the* blog, didn't you know?
  371. # [14:41] <gsnedders> I mean, nobody reads my blog
  372. # [14:41] <gsnedders> Except, maybe, James Holderness (who I strongly suspect does)
  373. # [14:43] <hsivonen> hmm. V.nu parser perf sucks compared to Xerces
  374. # [14:43] <hsivonen> so badly that I suspect it is IO buffering and nothing in the algorithm
  375. # [14:46] <Philip`> Need more abstraction, so you can use the same IO buffering in both implementations
  376. # [14:50] * gsnedders hopes that email is pointless sending
  377. # [14:51] <gsnedders> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/ietf-http-wg/2008AprJun/0124.html
  378. # [14:52] <gsnedders> (or rather, I hope that sending that email isn't pointless)
  379. # [14:52] <Philip`> Count the number of emails that have been sent in the past day; calculate how much better the world is today than it was yesterday; divide; conclude that all emails are almost entirely useless, and so you should stop writing them
  380. # [14:54] <gsnedders> That would be a time-saver.
  381. # [14:55] * gsnedders concludes he MUST reply to what a girl sent him ages ago
  382. # [14:55] <gsnedders> and apologise for being so damned slow.
  383. # [14:58] * gsnedders can't believe he actually just used an RFC2119 term there
  384. # [14:58] <hsivonen> Philip`: neither parser pegs the CPU, btw, which also points to IO
  385. # [14:59] <Philip`> It could also point to Thread.sleep calls, but I assume you've avoided doing that
  386. # [15:04] <annevk> zcorpan, there's more than one blog?
  387. # [15:05] <hsivonen> heh. the hotspot in V.nu is isNcname
  388. # [15:05] <hsivonen> which wouldn't be needed if the DOM impl. accepted any element name
  389. # [15:06] <annevk> isNcname is becoming easier in a few months, I think
  390. # [15:07] * hsivonen changes the test setup from DOM to SaxTree
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  392. # [15:13] <zcorpan> SaxTree doesn't do such checks?
  393. # [15:15] <hsivonen> zcorpan: it doesn't
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  395. # [15:18] <hsivonen> hmm. I'll just try SAX with defaulthandler
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  398. # [15:23] <hsivonen> a java.util.regex-based isNcname is incredibly bad
  399. # [15:35] <hsivonen> looks like it's all about how often they go and read from the underlying FileInputStream
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  401. # [15:39] <hsivonen> Xerces has special UTF-8 decoding...
  402. # [15:43] <hsivonen> OK. I have created a bug in my bytes to UTF-8 buffering
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  406. # [15:45] <hsivonen> bytes to UTF-16 that is
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  416. # [16:55] <hsivonen> Hixie: I can now confirm that not calling JDK intern() really makes a difference
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  421. # [17:10] <hsivonen> Hixie: is this on your radar: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=427329#c7
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  429. # [18:17] <annevk> hsivonen, I don't think we should start special casing the parser for that
  430. # [18:17] <annevk> fwiw
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  444. # [20:43] <hsivonen> annevk: btw, the NCName thing isn't getting any better per spec--only worse
  445. # [20:43] <hsivonen> annevk: the point of checking for NCNames is to avoid exceptions in existing software--not as much to comply with XML infosets
  446. # [20:45] <annevk> ah
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  454. # [21:21] <Hixie> hsivonen: it's not clear to me that the parser is the problem
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  456. # [21:21] <hsivonen> Hixie: it's claimed that backing out the parser fix helps
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  458. # [21:22] <andersca> hey Hixie
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  463. # [21:36] <Hixie> hsivonen: i thought it was claimed that it didn't
  464. # [21:36] <Hixie> oh, my bad
  465. # [21:36] <Hixie> misread it
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  478. # [22:43] <hsivonen> http://typophile.com/node/43971
  479. # [22:44] <annevk> I wonder if it's really embedding
  480. # [22:44] * annevk was just reading that
  481. # [22:47] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2007Dec/thread.html#msg84
  482. # [22:47] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@guest-226.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  483. # [22:56] <Hixie> ok wtf
  484. # [22:57] <Hixie> "REPORT /webapps/!svn/bc/1409/source HTTP/1.1" is taking up insane amounts of CPU on my box
  485. # [22:57] <annevk> maybe html5.org?
  486. # [22:58] <jgraham> Er, that would be me
  487. # [22:58] <Hixie> aha!
  488. # [22:58] <Hixie> the magic of irc
  489. # [22:58] <jgraham> I didn't realise it would take up CPU on your box
  490. # [22:58] <Hixie> jgraham: go ahead, it's ok
  491. # [22:58] * jgraham is ignorant
  492. # [22:58] <Hixie> jgraham: i'm sure you have legitimate reasons for it :-)
  493. # [22:58] <Hixie> jgraham: just making sure it wasn't some runaway script or something
  494. # [22:59] <Hixie> what is REPORT, anyway?
  495. # [22:59] <Hixie> svn blame?
  496. # [22:59] <jgraham> I was just wondering why html5lib's EOF handling appears to be different to the spec
  497. # [22:59] <jgraham> Hixie: yep
  498. # [22:59] <Hixie> cool
  499. # [23:01] <hsivonen> I wonder why multiple ns doesn't go to XHTML5 validation: http://www.w3.org/2008/03/validators-chart
  500. # [23:01] * Quits: eseidelHack (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-e1a476627d6cf684)
  501. # [23:03] <Hixie> i wonder why text/html with DTD doesn't go to (x)html5 validator
  502. # [23:04] <Hixie> in fact that whole thing is WAY more complex than necessary or desirable
  503. # [23:04] <Hixie> where does it come from?
  504. # [23:05] <annevk> W3C :)
  505. # [23:06] <hsivonen> Hixie: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008Apr/0017.html
  506. # [23:06] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-validator/2008Apr/0014.html ?
  507. # [23:06] <annevk> Web page study: http://nikitathespider.com/articles/ByTheNumbers/
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  510. # [23:07] <Hixie> ah
  511. # [23:07] <hsivonen> enabling NVDL in Valdator.nu seems to be only a tiny bit of hacking away
  512. # [23:08] <hsivonen> once again there's some bad entity resolving that I need to fix
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  514. # [23:15] <hober> this is awesome: http://nikitathespider.com/articles/ByTheNumbers/0803/MediaTypes.png
  515. # [23:15] <Hixie> looks basically like the numbers i got
  516. # [23:15] <Hixie> iirc i got 0.0044% to 0.2% depending on what kinds of pages i included
  517. # [23:16] <Hixie> (lower if i focused on the actively maintained web, higher if i included everything i could)
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  519. # [23:17] <Philip`> I got 0.03% application/xhtml+xml from dmoz.org
  520. # [23:17] <Philip`> (and 99.8% text/html)
  521. # [23:18] * gsnedders needs to get more HTTP headers :P
  522. # [23:18] <Philip`> gsnedders: Why? :-)
  523. # [23:18] <gsnedders> I mean, 1.1 million is nothing
  524. # [23:18] <Philip`> Depends on what you want to do with it
  525. # [23:18] <gsnedders> write a spec! :P
  526. # [23:19] <Hixie> i can never think of good examples for data-*
  527. # [23:19] <Philip`> People do real statistics with a sample size of hundreds - you don't always need billions :-)
  528. # [23:19] <gsnedders> Philip`: I know :)
  529. # [23:19] <gsnedders> Philip`: But it is all the edge cases that are helpful to have a large sample size for
  530. # [23:20] <Philip`> The web must be fractal, since you always find more edge cases when you look in more detail
  531. # [23:20] <Hixie> for writing the parser, i found that testing implementations was more useful than the data from the web
  532. # [23:20] <Hixie> but for defining new features, the data is invaluable
  533. # [23:21] <Hixie> i don't understand how people wrote specs without
  534. # [23:21] <gsnedders> Speaking of implementations, I need to email a guy at Opera
  535. # [23:21] <gsnedders> But I heart my left hand, and typig is slower than normal
  536. # [23:22] <gsnedders> typing, eve
  537. # [23:22] <gsnedders> *even
  538. # [23:22] <Philip`> Do you mean s/heart/hurt/ ?
  539. # [23:22] <gsnedders> yes
  540. # [23:23] <Hixie> Philip`, you're a braver man than i. i wasn't going to touch that one with a barge pole.
  541. # [23:23] * gsnedders wonders what that one is
  542. # [23:23] * gsnedders looks on the lists
  543. # [23:23] <hober> I imagine it was the s/// above
  544. # [23:23] <gsnedders> ah
  545. # [23:23] <gsnedders> oh dear…
  546. # [23:24] <gsnedders> now I realise…
  547. # [23:24] * Parts: hasather_ (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  548. # [23:24] <gsnedders> I would say I ought to go hide in a corner because I didn't realise, but in this case, that's the wrong thing to say.
  549. # [23:27] <gsnedders> Hixie: Can I call you sick for just thinking of that?
  550. # [23:27] <hober> indeed.
  551. # [23:31] <gsnedders> Now, let me leave before I make an even more regrettable fuck up.
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  557. # [23:41] <Hixie> annevk: what specs are you editor of these days?
  558. # [23:43] * Joins: blooberry (n=brian@c-76-126-194-196.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  559. # [23:44] <Hixie> hey bloo
  560. # [23:44] * Quits: phsiao (n=shawn@nat/ibm/x-97172210566073a0)
  561. # [23:44] <blooberry> hey hixie. 8-}
  562. # [23:44] <Hixie> wassup dude
  563. # [23:44] <blooberry> statistics.
  564. # [23:44] <blooberry> (trying to figure out how to present data and things)
  565. # [23:45] <Hixie> good times
  566. # [23:46] <blooberry> if you say so. ;-} *visions of standard deviations dancing through my head*
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  568. # [23:49] <Philip`> Just say "the error bars are too small to show on this graph"
  569. # [23:49] <blooberry> I like that. 8-}
  570. # [23:49] <Hixie> hah
  571. # [23:50] <andersca> hey Hixie
  572. # [23:50] <Hixie> hey
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  574. # [23:54] <jgraham> It's always good if you can claim the error bars aren't meaningful
  575. # [23:55] <Hixie> it's not at all clear to me what my error bars should actually be on some of my stats
  576. # [23:55] <Hixie> i mean, i can tell you exactly what the count was for the n billion pages
  577. # [23:55] <Hixie> it's not an estimate
  578. # [23:55] <Hixie> but since it's just a biased sample of an infinite number of pages...
  579. # [23:55] <Hixie> i don't know what to conclude
  580. # [23:56] <jgraham> Hixie: The error bars are supposed to represent the error on the population average based on the properties of your sample
  581. # [23:57] <jgraham> But since, as you note, you have a biased sample of the population it's not clear what that actually means
  582. # [23:57] <Hixie> so if n out of N pages had property X, what's the error on the population average for the property X?
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  584. # [23:57] <andersca> Hixie: I have another application cache question for you
  585. # [23:57] <Hixie> go for it
  586. # [23:58] <andersca> Hixie: about the networking model
  587. # [23:58] <andersca> Hixie: so when a browsing context is associated with an application cache, all loads should go through the cache
  588. # [23:59] <Hixie> with the caveats defined in 4.6.5.1. Changes to the networking model, yes
  589. # [23:59] <andersca> yeah
  590. # Session Close: Tue Apr 08 00:00:00 2008

The end :)