/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-04-08 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Tue Apr 08 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <andersca> now I understand that if I have a browsing context that is associated with an application cache
  4. # [00:00] <andersca> and the current document has a subframe, which is loaded from the cache
  5. # [00:00] <andersca> then that subframe's browsing context is not associated with an application cache?
  6. # [00:00] <Hixie> iirc the idea is that only the top-level browsing context matters
  7. # [00:01] <Hixie> but let me see if i can find that somewhere in the spec
  8. # [00:01] <andersca> the cache selection process will be invoked without a manifest URI for the subframe
  9. # [00:04] <Hixie> aha, found it
  10. # [00:04] <Hixie> "A child browsing context is always associated with the same browsing context as its parent browsing context, if any."
  11. # [00:04] <Hixie> from 4.6.2 Application caches
  12. # [00:05] <jgraham> Hixie: I think you just use the binomial std. deviation which is (pN(1-p))^0.5
  13. # [00:05] <Hixie> jgraham: where p = n/N ?
  14. # [00:06] <jgraham> Hixie: Yeah
  15. # [00:06] <Hixie> jgraham: so sqrt(n*(1-(n/N))) ?
  16. # [00:06] <jgraham> Statistics is not something that I have done a lot of recently
  17. # [00:06] <Philip`> Hixie: sqrt(n*(n/N)*(1-n/N)), I think
  18. # [00:07] * Joins: deane (n=dean@203-211-97-220.ue.woosh.co.nz)
  19. # [00:07] <Philip`> and then there's a 95% chance the population mean is within +/- 2 s.d. of the sample mean, I think
  20. # [00:07] <Hixie> so (pn(1-p))^0.5, not (pN(1-p))^0.5
  21. # [00:08] <annevk> Hixie, http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/User:Annevk
  22. # [00:08] <Philip`> Hixie: Oops, I think I should have said sqrt(N*(n/N)*(1-n/N))
  23. # [00:08] <Hixie> that's what jgraham said, right
  24. # [00:09] <Hixie> sqrt(n*(1-(n/N)))
  25. # [00:09] <jgraham> Yeah, that's what I said
  26. # [00:09] <jgraham> sqrt(N*(n/N)*(1-n/N) that is
  27. # [00:09] <Philip`> Oh, simplifying the multiplications makes it more complex to see if it's right :-)
  28. # [00:09] <jgraham> or at least what I meant
  29. # [00:10] * Philip` suggests it is a premature optimisation
  30. # [00:11] * Quits: heycam` (n=cam@210-84-23-247.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("bye")
  31. # [00:12] <Hixie> that graph can't be right
  32. # [00:12] <Philip`> (That calculation of s.d. only works if n/N is sufficiently non-extreme, like 20 < n < N-20 or something)
  33. # [00:17] <Hixie> y=sqrt(x(1-(x/N))) for N=1e9 from x=0..N results in a pretty curve that crosses the x axis at 0 and N and that peaks at about y=5e4
  34. # [00:18] * Joins: fearphage (n=fearphag@xbmc/user/fearphage)
  35. # [00:18] <Hixie> which seems unintuitive if y really represents the likely error
  36. # [00:18] <Hixie> at x
  37. # [00:20] <Hixie> wait, n and N are almost certainly not the n and N i was talking about here
  38. # [00:20] <Hixie> i'm guessing n is the sample size and N the population size
  39. # [00:20] <Hixie> in which case i can't work out the error, since the population size is infinite, or at least unknowable
  40. # [00:20] <jgraham> No, N should be the sample size
  41. # [00:20] <Philip`> n is the number with property P out of the sample size of N, and the population is assumed to be infinite
  42. # [00:20] <Hixie> oh
  43. # [00:20] <Hixie> well then
  44. # [00:20] <Hixie> something is wrong
  45. # [00:20] <Hixie> for this graph doesn't make sense
  46. # [00:20] <jgraham> (imagine flipping coins; the population is infinite then too)
  47. # [00:21] <Hixie> there's no way that if i find 1000 page out of 1e9 that the error is less than if i find 10000
  48. # [00:21] <Hixie> i guess it makes sense that the error would be symmetric
  49. # [00:22] <Hixie> about 50%
  50. # [00:22] <Hixie> since otherwise you could just define your problem as its reverse and your error would drop to zero
  51. # [00:22] <Hixie> but shouldn't the error for n 0.01% or n 99.99% be greater than for n 50%?
  52. # [00:23] <Philip`> It should peak at x=5e8, y=1.6e4, not at y=5e4, I think
  53. # [00:23] <Hixie> er yes, i meant 1.5e4 but the 1. was cut off on my display
  54. # [00:26] <Hixie> annevk: cool, thanks (re wiki page)
  55. # [00:28] <Philip`> Hixie: If you had a coin that gave heads 55% of the time, you wouldn't be surprised if it gave 50 heads out of 100 throws, because that's within expected random variation. But if you had a coin that gave heads 5% of the time, you would be surprised if you got 0 heads out of 100 throws (because the chance of that is 0.95^100 = 0.6%)
  56. # [00:29] <Philip`> So it's a 5% difference between sample and population means in both cases, but that's expected in the n/N=50 case and too extreme in the n/N=0 case
  57. # [00:29] <Hixie> fair enough
  58. # [00:29] <Philip`> so the expected variation is much lower nearer n=0
  59. # [00:30] <Hixie> makes sense
  60. # [00:30] * Hixie looks at the actual numbers
  61. # [00:30] <Philip`> (though the binomial normal approximation model breaks down when you actually get n=0)
  62. # [00:30] <annevk> Hixie, creating a new stats page?
  63. # [00:30] <Hixie> annevk: no, bloo made me think about it
  64. # [00:31] <Hixie> Philip`: so in a sample of 7e9 pages as my recent one, if i find 500 pages with a tag, that's really 500 +/- 22?
  65. # [00:31] <Hixie> i guess that makes sense
  66. # [00:31] <jgraham> Near n=0 it becomes poisson-like, right? So the error ~sqrt(n)
  67. # [00:32] <Philip`> Near n=0 I think you can just calculate the binomial directly, instead of approximating
  68. # [00:33] <jgraham> Right, but if you just want a good estimate and are lazy :)
  69. # [00:34] <Philip`> Hixie: 22 is the standard deviation, not the expected error - I think it's something like 66% chance that the sample mean is within +/- 1 s.d. of the true mean
  70. # [00:34] <Philip`> Hixie: so you want 2 s.d. (500 +/- 44) for 95% confidence
  71. # [00:34] <Hixie> ah right
  72. # [00:34] <Philip`> (I do hope I'm remembering this right...)
  73. # [00:35] <Hixie> this is all basically a complicated way of saying "we can't really tell anything for sure but we might as well assume it's all right"
  74. # [00:35] <jgraham> Philip`: The bit about std deviations is right
  75. # [00:35] <Philip`> The 95% thing means if you do this 20 times then you can expect to be wrong once, but hopefully only a little bit wrong :-)
  76. # [00:36] <Hixie> except i can't
  77. # [00:36] <Hixie> since i can't take a different sample
  78. # [00:36] <jgraham> But I _think_ you can make an estimate of the uncertainty on p using this method
  79. # [00:36] <Hixie> and i know the numbers precisely for my actual "sample"
  80. # [00:36] <jgraham> which is what you really care about
  81. # [00:36] <Philip`> Hixie: You should take a random sample of your 7e9 pages, and then you could do proper statistics on that, using the 7e9 as the population :-)
  82. # [00:37] <Hixie> that would be worthless
  83. # [00:37] <Hixie> since i can just do it on the whole thing!
  84. # [00:37] <jgraham> (like naievely you could say the probability of a page containing the tag is 500/7e9 +/- 22/7e9, only if might be more complicated than that)
  85. # [00:38] <jgraham> s/naievely/naively/
  86. # [00:38] <jgraham> s/if/it/
  87. # [00:38] <Hixie> if it's 500 +/- 44 out of N to have 95% confidence that the same proportion applies in the population as a whole
  88. # [00:38] <Hixie> that means that out of any random sample of N pages, there'll be 500-44 to 500+44 out of N that have this feature
  89. # [00:39] <Hixie> right?
  90. # [00:39] <Hixie> which is basically no error
  91. # [00:39] <Hixie> i mean, on the cosmic scale of things
  92. # [00:39] <Philip`> If they're random samples from the same infinitely large population (where "infinitely large" means "much larger than the sample size"), then yes
  93. # [00:39] <jgraham> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margin_of_error
  94. # [00:40] <jgraham> Philip`: Which brings me back to the point about it being good if you can say the error bars are meaningless
  95. # [00:40] <Philip`> (because obviously if sample size = population size then you'll find precisely 500 in any sample of size N, so you have to assume infinite population to make sure the samples are independent, I think)
  96. # [00:40] <Hixie> i'm going to continue pretending that the margin of error is as close to 0 as makes no difference so long as i find something on more than 10000 or so pages
  97. # [00:41] <Hixie> Philip`: yeah, the sad thing here is that the samples aren't at all random for me. They're the N most interesting pages, for some pretty precise and known-useful definition of interesting
  98. # [00:41] <jgraham> Hixie: Well if you can get a variation from 0.2-0.044 depending on which pages you sample you're dominated by systematic error anyway
  99. # [00:42] <Hixie> jgraham: exactly
  100. # [00:42] <Philip`> It seems unlikely that 456 vs 544 pages using some feature would have any practical significance on design decisions, which is all that really matters
  101. # [00:42] <Hixie> right
  102. # [00:43] * Quits: roc (n=roc@CPE-58-168-130-187.vic.bigpond.net.au) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  103. # [00:46] <Philip`> Mostly it's just nice to not use too many decimal places when presenting data, like 1e4 out of 7e9 should be 0.00014% and not 0.0001429%, because meaningless decimal places remind me of physics lessons :-)
  104. # [00:47] <Hixie> yeah well in my case i have to round the data and add in some error anyway to keep the data from being too accurate
  105. # [00:47] <Hixie> so
  106. # [00:47] <Hixie> :-)
  107. # [00:47] <Philip`> How do you know if you're adding enough error? :-)
  108. # [00:48] <Hixie> i'm pretty sure i add enough
  109. # [00:48] <Hixie> and that's all i'll say about that :-P
  110. # [00:50] <takkaria> Hixie: where's the html5 svn repo viewer online? I can't seem to find it
  111. # [00:50] <Hixie> there's a link at the top of the spec
  112. # [00:50] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au)
  113. # [00:51] <takkaria> that figures. :) ta
  114. # [00:51] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  115. # [00:52] * Philip` is slightly reminded of Cryptonomicon, calculating exactly how much of the collected signals intelligence could be used before it would become sufficiently accurate that it would reveal its source
  116. # [00:52] <Hixie> yeah
  117. # [00:52] <Philip`> except this isn't quite as serious as a war
  118. # [00:52] <Hixie> indeed
  119. # [00:53] <Hixie> one of the things i do is report numbers for different characteristics from samples collected at different times
  120. # [00:53] <Hixie> so the numbers aren't self-consistent even if you try to combine them
  121. # [00:54] <Hixie> (they're close enough though)
  122. # [00:54] <Hixie> (to draw conclusions from for the spec, i mean)
  123. # [00:54] <Philip`> It's nice to work in areas that are trivial in the grand scheme of things, like HTML, so it doesn't matter when you mess up :-)
  124. # [00:55] <Hixie> yeah really
  125. # [00:55] <Hixie> we can have a big impact, but if we screw up, oh well! no biggie
  126. # [00:56] <Philip`> The internet is a demonstration that you can mess up quite a large number of things and we'll still carry on just fine
  127. # [01:00] <Hixie> aaah
  128. # [01:01] <Hixie> i broke mathml
  129. # [01:01] <Hixie> and didn't notice
  130. # [01:01] <Hixie> crap
  131. # [01:02] * Quits: annevk (n=annevk@77.163.243.203) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  132. # [01:02] <Hixie> how do we handle <mglyph>
  133. # [01:02] <fearphage> http://files.myopera.com/fearphage/static/bugs.xhtml?http://my.imaginary/site/ this document was originally made and served as text/html. not its served as application/xhtml+xml. can anyone tell me why #299801 (3rd test from the bottom) is failing and how to make it pass (if possible). the problem revolves around xml + document.evaluate with a null namespace
  134. # [01:02] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@77.163.243.203)
  135. # [01:02] <fearphage> is there a way to query xml nodes using xpath with a null namespace?
  136. # [01:04] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  137. # [01:05] * Quits: deltab (n=deltab@82-36-30-34.cable.ubr02.smal.blueyonder.co.uk) (Remote closed the connection)
  138. # [01:06] * Joins: deltab (n=deltab@82-36-30-34.cable.ubr02.smal.blueyonder.co.uk)
  139. # [01:16] <takkaria> Hixie: you may be aware of this, but entities-unicode.inc just became empty in the whatwg svn
  140. # [01:17] * Quits: billmason (n=billmaso@ip150.unival.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  141. # [01:17] <Hixie> yeah, fixed it already
  142. # [01:17] <Hixie> and made steps to prevent it from happening again
  143. # [01:18] <takkaria> thanks
  144. # [01:18] <Hixie> taken steps, rather
  145. # [01:23] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-d8f8ef60cfe8c802)
  146. # [01:35] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  147. # [01:45] <annevk> http://www.dehora.net/journal/2008/03/20/html5-obs/
  148. # [01:48] * Parts: webben_ (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com)
  149. # [01:49] * Quits: csarven (i=csarven@on-irc.csarven.ca) ("http://www.csarven.ca")
  150. # [02:09] <Philip`> In case anyone cares about <form method> compatibility: http://philip.html5.org/data/form-method.txt
  151. # [02:15] * Quits: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) ("ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)")
  152. # [02:15] <deltab> interesting, though by their nature, put and delete aren't likely to be exposed on public sites
  153. # [03:02] * Quits: tndH_ (i=Rob@adsl-87-102-77-74.karoo.KCOM.COM) ("ChatZilla 0.9.81-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508]")
  154. # [03:12] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-d8f8ef60cfe8c802) ("The computer fell asleep")
  155. # [03:20] <Hixie> SVG 1.1 defines 300 attributes
  156. # [03:20] <Hixie> jesus
  157. # [03:21] * Joins: csarven (n=csarven@bas16-montreal02-1176028388.dsl.bell.ca)
  158. # [03:23] <Hixie> actually that number is inflated; for some reason they list some multiple times
  159. # [03:25] <Hixie> how the hell are we gonna do this attribute fixup
  160. # [03:25] * bradee-oh is now known as bradee-goesHome
  161. # [03:40] <Hixie> so uh
  162. # [03:40] <Hixie> what namespace is the attribute in <foo xmlns="bar:"/> in ?
  163. # [03:42] <takkaria> the xmlns namespace?
  164. # [03:44] <Hixie> is it?
  165. # [03:44] <Hixie> where does the spec say that?
  166. # [03:44] <Hixie> i thought it said it but i can't find it anymore
  167. # [03:45] <andersca> Hixie: another q
  168. # [03:45] <andersca> Hixie: about you know what
  169. # [03:46] <takkaria> Hixie: http://www.stylusstudio.com/xmldev/200507/post00210.html might shed some light on it
  170. # [03:47] <Hixie> takkaria: yeah, what that e-mail describes is what i think is true, but i can't find any proof of it in the spec
  171. # [03:47] <Hixie> andersca: yes?
  172. # [03:47] <Hixie> andersca: you can just ask the question, you don't have to tell me that you're going to ask me the question :-)
  173. # [03:48] <andersca> Hixie: just trying to warn you
  174. # [03:48] <andersca> Hixie: so during the first cache selection
  175. # [03:48] <heycam> Hixie, it says that in "namespaces in xml" i think?
  176. # [03:49] <heycam> that namespace uri (the xmlns one) is the one i have the most trouble remembering
  177. # [03:49] <andersca> Hixie: the document resource should be stored as an implicit entry
  178. # [03:49] <takkaria> Hixie: http://www.w3.org/2000/xmlns/ is about the best you're going to get, I think
  179. # [03:49] <Hixie> heycam: that's the spec i'm looking at, but i can't find it
  180. # [03:50] <Hixie> takkaria: how do you mean?
  181. # [03:50] <heycam> Hixie, search for the text "used only to declare namespace bindings"
  182. # [03:50] <andersca> Hixie: I guess what I'm saying is
  183. # [03:50] <andersca> Hixie: "...store the resource in the matching cache with the most up to date version, categorised as an implicit entry, associate the Document with that cache, invoke the application cache update process, and abort these steps."
  184. # [03:51] <Hixie> heycam: that's the prefix as in "xmlns:foo", which I agree should definitely be in that namespace
  185. # [03:51] <andersca> Hixie: should the document be associated and the cache updated _after_ the resource has been loaded?
  186. # [03:51] <Hixie> heycam: but what of "xmlns='...'"?
  187. # [03:51] <heycam> Hixie, hmm you're right, i can't find anything that talks about that...
  188. # [03:52] <takkaria> Hixie: well, that's a document in w3c space that says that the spec is silent on the issue but that you might find it useful to put xmlns attributes in the xmlns namespace
  189. # [03:52] <Hixie> andersca: that algorithm happens synchronously when it is invoked, which happens during document load, before the page is completely downloaded
  190. # [03:52] <andersca> Hixie: yeah
  191. # [03:52] <takkaria> though we may be talking at crosspurposes here :)
  192. # [03:52] <Hixie> takkaria: i think we agree on the desired result, i just don't the normative text requiring it :-)
  193. # [03:53] <Hixie> andersca: so i guess the answer is no, but i'm not sure i follow the question
  194. # [03:53] <andersca> Hixie: so should the "cached" event be sent when all resources (including the implicit resources) have been downloaded
  195. # [03:54] <Hixie> andersca: if we're talking about the same thing, i think you'll end up with an upgrade attempt, not a cache attempt
  196. # [03:54] <Hixie> andersca: since there is, if you hit that part of the spec, already an application cache set up
  197. # [03:55] <andersca> Hixie: ah, I copied the wrong part. sorry
  198. # [03:55] <andersca> Hixie: what I meant was
  199. # [03:55] <andersca> "Otherwise, there is no matching application cache: create a new application cache identified by this manifest URI, store the resource in that cache, categorised as an implicit entry, and then invoke the application cache update process."
  200. # [03:57] <andersca> Hixie: I think it makes sense to not fire the "cached" event until all the resources, including the implicit resource, have been loaded
  201. # [03:57] <Hixie> andersca: oh, i see
  202. # [03:57] <Hixie> andersca: i had intended "cached" to fire as soon as everything in the manifest was down
  203. # [03:57] <andersca> oh, OK
  204. # [03:57] <Hixie> andersca: but as noted in the spec, the event part of the spec is a bit of a mess
  205. # [03:58] <Hixie> andersca: and will almost certainly have to change in response to feedback from authors trying to use it and implementors like you trying to implement it
  206. # [03:58] <Hixie> andersca: i recommend sending feedback saying what you think it should do
  207. # [03:58] <andersca> Hixie: OK - you do make a good point about cached being sent when the manifest resources have been downloaded
  208. # [04:00] * Quits: deane (n=dean@203-211-97-220.ue.woosh.co.nz) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  209. # [04:03] * Joins: xShad0w__ (n=xShad0w@pool-72-66-18-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
  210. # [04:10] * bradee-goesHome is now known as bradee-dinner
  211. # [04:11] * Quits: andersca (n=andersca@nat/apple/x-1ceea0bd483dfdfa) ("a")
  212. # [04:14] * Joins: andersca (n=andersca@nat/apple/x-eddd8a77c904ceea)
  213. # [04:15] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-c377ac04bf3ca60d)
  214. # [04:19] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@nat/apple/x-a2e98109d9caf86b)
  215. # [04:20] * Quits: xShad0w_ (n=xShad0w@pool-72-66-13-80.washdc.fios.verizon.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  216. # [04:28] * Quits: andersca (n=andersca@nat/apple/x-eddd8a77c904ceea)
  217. # [04:42] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-2e505af2152ba12e)
  218. # [04:49] * Quits: psa2 (n=yomode@71.93.19.66) ("All things must come to an end")
  219. # [04:50] * Joins: psa (n=yomode@71.93.19.66)
  220. # [04:52] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  221. # [05:08] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.172)
  222. # [05:08] * bradee-dinner is now known as bradee-forRealsD
  223. # [05:16] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  224. # [05:34] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM117-55-15-26.pool.emnet.ne.jp)
  225. # [05:38] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-2e505af2152ba12e) ("The computer fell asleep")
  226. # [05:57] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM117-55-15-26.pool.emnet.ne.jp) ("Less talk, more pimp walk.")
  227. # [06:06] * Parts: xShad0w__ (n=xShad0w@pool-72-66-18-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
  228. # [06:09] * Joins: xShad0w_ (n=xShad0w@pool-72-66-18-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
  229. # [06:09] * Parts: xShad0w_ (n=xShad0w@pool-72-66-18-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
  230. # [06:19] * Joins: Thezilch (i=fuz007@cpe-76-170-22-70.socal.res.rr.com)
  231. # [06:22] * Quits: csarven (n=csarven@bas16-montreal02-1176028388.dsl.bell.ca) ("http://www.csarven.ca")
  232. # [06:28] * Joins: HTML5_Lurker (n=chatzill@c-67-177-161-58.hsd1.ky.comcast.net)
  233. # [06:42] * Joins: deane (n=dean@202-74-210-121.ue.woosh.co.nz)
  234. # [06:43] * Quits: deane (n=dean@202-74-210-121.ue.woosh.co.nz) (Client Quit)
  235. # [06:49] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@dhcp-246-231.mag.keio.ac.jp)
  236. # [06:49] * Joins: jwalden (n=waldo@RANDOM-SEVENTY-TWO.MIT.EDU)
  237. # [06:50] * Joins: MacDome (n=eric@c-24-130-11-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  238. # [06:51] <Hixie> man
  239. # [06:52] <othermaciej> Hixie: what's up?
  240. # [06:52] <Hixie> if these preliminary results are reflexted in the final results, the list of elements we will have to have to bail out of the namespaced mode is gonna be as long as my arm
  241. # [06:52] <Hixie> reflected
  242. # [06:52] <Hixie> for both svg and mathml
  243. # [06:53] <Hixie> i bet the people pushing for generic parsing rules didn't imagine ever seeing things like:
  244. # [06:53] <Hixie> <math><>=\;</math> <math><a>=\;</math> <math><a,b>=\;</math> <math><a,b,c>=\;</math><math>\ldots</math>
  245. # [06:53] <Hixie> - http://658ab56cdd961ffd0cb63abb6437fe77.zh.wikiax.biz/be/Вектар
  246. # [06:54] <othermaciej> what the...?
  247. # [06:57] * bradee-forRealsD is now known as bradee-oh
  248. # [06:57] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au) ("bye")
  249. # [06:58] <HTML5_Lurker> Hixie: I believe that is MediaWiki markup, not MathML.
  250. # [06:58] <Hixie> i don't even know what the <math> elements in this are supposed to be: http://www.kfki.hu/cnc/szhkpub/riccir/node5.html
  251. # [06:58] <Hixie> but i especially like:
  252. # [06:58] <Hixie> <P ALIGN=CENTER><MATH CLASS=EQNARRAYSTAR><ARRAY COLS=3 ALIGN=MIDDLE>
  253. # [06:58] <Hixie> <COL ALIGN=RIGHT><COL ALIGN=CENTER><COL ALIGN=LEFT>
  254. # [06:58] <Hixie> <ROW><ITEM VALIGN=BASELINE ALIGN=RIGHT NOWRAP>A<SUP>ij</SUP> </ITEM><ITEM VALIGN=BASELINE ALIGN=CENTER NOWRAP> = </ITEM><ITEM VALIGN=BASELINE ALIGN=LEFT NOWRAP> (A<SUP>i</SUP>, B<SUP>i</SUP>, C<SUP>i</SUP>, D<SUP>i</SUP>).
  255. # [06:59] <Hixie> </ITEM></ROW>
  256. # [06:59] <Hixie> </ARRAY>
  257. # [06:59] <Hixie> </MATH></P>
  258. # [06:59] <othermaciej> awesome
  259. # [07:04] * Quits: MacDome (n=eric@c-24-130-11-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  260. # [07:05] <Hixie> http://www.tnpi.biz/computing/freebsdsys.shtml is good too
  261. # [07:05] <Hixie> my script detected the <intel> element in the <math> element
  262. # [07:07] <Hixie> is there some way to reliable tell what the mime type of a file was when viewing it in safari?
  263. # [07:11] <MikeSmith> Hixie: - I think you need check the Network part in Web Inspector
  264. # [07:11] <MikeSmith> click on the bar
  265. # [07:11] <MikeSmith> whatever bar is associated with the file
  266. # [07:12] <MikeSmith> will show headers
  267. # [07:12] <Hixie> ah ok
  268. # [07:14] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  269. # [07:14] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  270. # [07:14] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-98-207-134-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  271. # [07:19] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@adsl-76-204-78-170.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  272. # [07:25] * Quits: blooberry (n=brian@c-76-126-194-196.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  273. # [07:34] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  274. # [07:40] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  275. # [07:41] * Joins: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  276. # [07:54] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@adsl-76-204-78-170.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  277. # [08:04] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@c-24-130-11-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  278. # [08:07] <hsivonen> Hixie: in case the SVG attribute list is pruned somehow in the spec, I'd appreciate getting an unpruned version from damowmow.com or something
  279. # [08:08] <hsivonen> (in order to pre-intern all interesting attribute names)
  280. # [08:08] <HTML5_Lurker> I've been trying to lurk to get the feel of discussion here, but no one is talking much just now. May I ask some questions?
  281. # [08:09] <hsivonen> HTML5_Lurker: sure
  282. # [08:10] <jwalden> you may even ask others!
  283. # [08:10] <HTML5_Lurker> Also, Hixie, that last page you mentioned has no MathML markup, as a quick glance at its source makes clear.
  284. # [08:12] <hsivonen> HTML5_Lurker: it has "<math processor> on motherboard
  285. # [08:12] <HTML5_Lurker> I have some personal interest in graphics and mathematics on the web. I have hand-authored SVG and MathML. I'd like the future to be better. What are the prospects for contributing here?
  286. # [08:12] <hsivonen> "
  287. # [08:13] <HTML5_Lurker> Also, I have expertise in both 3D graphics and in mathematical typesetting.
  288. # [08:17] * Joins: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-218-215.dsl.pipex.com)
  289. # [08:17] * Quits: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-218-215.dsl.pipex.com) (Client Quit)
  290. # [08:20] <HTML5_Lurker> (I have almost no IRC experience.) Is my question too vague?
  291. # [08:22] <hsivonen> HTML5_Lurker: is there something you've found a need for but that the current draft of HTML5 doesn't cover?
  292. # [08:24] * Joins: epeus (n=KevinMar@72.14.224.1)
  293. # [08:25] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-98-207-134-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Nick collision from services.)
  294. # [08:25] * epeus is now known as KevinMarks
  295. # [08:25] <HTML5_Lurker> I want to be able to use mathematical notation, and animated graphics. The current state of affairs on the web is disappointing. HTML5 is just beginning to look at SVG and MathML. Now would seem to be a good time to interject.
  296. # [08:28] <HTML5_Lurker> No one in their right mind would want to hand author MathML. Mathematicians and many scientists use LaTeX (often poorly); it has nothing to do with semantics.
  297. # [08:28] <Hixie> hsivonen: i took the list of attributes (that aren't all lowercase) straight form the svg 1.1 spec
  298. # [08:28] <hsivonen> Hixie: ok
  299. # [08:29] * Hixie didn't _want_ to hand-author MathML, it just sort of happened that way
  300. # [08:29] <hsivonen> Hixie: did you check if SVG 1.0 and 1.2 have some more?
  301. # [08:29] <Hixie> (back when i wrote MathML+XHTML, in 2001ish)
  302. # [08:29] <Hixie> hsivonen: no
  303. # [08:29] <Hixie> hsivonen: i'm mostly ignoring 1.2, and i doubt very much that 1.1 dropped anything
  304. # [08:30] * Quits: JohnResig (n=jresig@c-66-31-203-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  305. # [08:31] <HTML5_Lurker> Is the plan to drop SVG and MathML into HTML5 without namespace tags? Warts and all?
  306. # [08:31] <hsivonen> HTML5_Lurker: a good way to contribute would be reviewing that the HTML5 parsing algorithm can ingest the kind of MathML iTeX4MML, TeX4ht and Mathematica output
  307. # [08:31] <hsivonen> HTML5_Lurker: with warts, yes
  308. # [08:32] <HTML5_Lurker> But TeX to MathML translation is hideous!
  309. # [08:33] <HTML5_Lurker> TeX is based on an input character stream, and concerns itself with appearance only.
  310. # [08:33] <hsivonen> HTML5_Lurker: I gather that iTeX has macros that are oriented towards mapping to MathML
  311. # [08:33] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@210-84-23-247.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  312. # [08:34] <HTML5_Lurker> TeX is primitive lexically, and has almost no sense of the meaning. It's a collection of (successful) hacks for getting a satisfactory appearance.
  313. # [08:35] <HTML5_Lurker> MathML, even the presentation part, is obsessed with semantics.
  314. # [08:35] <hsivonen> HTML5_Lurker: many people like to write LaTeX over MathML
  315. # [08:37] <HTML5_Lurker> hsivonen: Sure; to write 2+2 = 4 in MathML bloats by a factor of 10 or 20, and the content is lost in a blizzard of stupid tags.
  316. # [08:38] <HTML5_Lurker> <math><mrow><mn>2</mn><mo>+</mo><mn>2</mn></mrow><mo>=</mo><mn>4</mn></math>
  317. # [08:39] * Joins: roc (n=roc@CPE-58-168-133-206.vic.bigpond.net.au)
  318. # [08:39] <HTML5_Lurker> I'm forced to use 9 characters to tell the parser that 2 is a number!
  319. # [08:40] <Hixie> yeah, mathml is pretty verbose
  320. # [08:40] <Hixie> i wish there was a better solution
  321. # [08:42] <HTML5_Lurker> I might not care if I didn't have to look at it, and if vendors supported it. But I suspect the bloat has worked against it.
  322. # [08:43] <hsivonen> HTML5_Lurker: I think XML and economic incentives (lack thereof) have worked against MathML
  323. # [08:46] <HTML5_Lurker> Mathematicians have little money. Engineers spend lots. The loss is hidden in the use of PDF instead of HTML.
  324. # [08:48] <hsivonen> HTML5_Lurker: Wolfram, Waterloo and universities have money. MathML would be an enabler to what they do...
  325. # [08:50] <roc> hey I just found out that Prince supports MathML
  326. # [08:50] <roc> plus Gecko, so that's two vendors right there!
  327. # [08:50] * Joins: JohnResig (n=jresig@c-76-118-158-44.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  328. # [08:51] <HTML5_Lurker> Indeed, Mathematica can parse a terse notation, give it semantics, and generate MathML. But Wolfram charges a lot for the privilege.
  329. # [08:52] <othermaciej> I must admit our overall level of customer demand for MathML is fairly low
  330. # [08:53] <HTML5_Lurker> roc: Do you mean http://popuw.com/pwb.html ?
  331. # [08:53] <hsivonen> HTML5_Lurker: wolfram could get more value out of the mathml investment in mathematica if they contributed to Gecko and WebKit
  332. # [08:54] <roc> they don't really need to contribute to Gecko
  333. # [08:54] <hsivonen> commoditizing the complements of your products and all that
  334. # [08:54] <hsivonen> roc: perhaps not anymore
  335. # [08:54] <roc> HTML5_Lurker: no, I mean this: http://yeslogic.com/
  336. # [08:54] <hsivonen> (unless they want Content MathML rendering using shadow tree conversion to Presentation or something like that)
  337. # [08:55] <othermaciej> I think Wolfram has asked us to add a complicated API for layout-integrated plugins that can handle markup in particular namespaces so that a third party could get Apple to pay to include their MathML plugin that they would build using this
  338. # [08:55] <roc> wouldn't you rather implement mathML than deal with that?
  339. # [08:55] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  340. # [08:55] <othermaciej> yes
  341. # [08:55] <roc> good choice
  342. # [08:55] <hsivonen> indeed
  343. # [08:59] <HTML5_Lurker> roc: Apparently Prince is meant to generate PDF; not really a browser.
  344. # [08:59] <roc> you didn't say browser, you said vendor
  345. # [09:00] <roc> but hey, it does parsing, layout and rendering
  346. # [09:00] <roc> so it's about as much of a browser as, say, Opera 6 :-)
  347. # [09:01] <Hixie> the key part of a browser that makes a UA a browser is the ability to click links :-P
  348. # [09:01] <roc> the links in Prince-generated PDF are clickable
  349. # [09:01] <othermaciej> wait, a browser has to be able to browse?
  350. # [09:01] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@nat/canonical/x-a6520c583a7c7507)
  351. # [09:02] <HTML5_Lurker> So, typesetting mathematics is 80% superscripts and subscripts and other decorations, but the remaining 20% is 2D layout and stretchy characters.
  352. # [09:02] <HTML5_Lurker> Fonts are critical. It's no accident that Knuth created Metafont and TeX together.
  353. # [09:02] <roc> the big stuff missing from Prince is JS and DOM APIs
  354. # [09:03] <othermaciej> I think you can sort of be a browser with no scripting support, though not a very useful one for the modern web
  355. # [09:04] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@guest-226.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  356. # [09:04] <Hixie> hsivonen: i made mismatched xmlns= be a parse error, i think you should be all set now
  357. # [09:04] <Hixie> roc: what do they click to?
  358. # [09:04] <HTML5_Lurker> MathML was supposed to incorporate semantics, as in DOM.
  359. # [09:05] <roc> your default Web browser
  360. # [09:05] <roc> I bet with a little cleverness you can set your default Web browser to be a combination of Prince and PDF viewer :-)
  361. # [09:05] <Hixie> roc: that's a pretty shy web browser, sending all clicks to another browser :-P
  362. # [09:05] <Hixie> that would be pretty sick
  363. # [09:06] <HTML5_Lurker> Since TeX has no semantics, automatic translation has problems.
  364. # [09:06] <Hixie> it's amazing how much of this svg-in-html stuff out there is just content with the wrong mime type
  365. # [09:06] <Hixie> that flat out doesn't work today
  366. # [09:07] <zcorpan> Hixie: for a while when i clicked links in IE, it would open them in opera
  367. # [09:07] <Hixie> and that actualy might well work when this all gets supported
  368. # [09:07] <zcorpan> Hixie: dunno why
  369. # [09:07] <Hixie> zcorpan: freaky
  370. # [09:07] <Hixie> <SVG holder><embed height="450" width="855" src="SVG.aspx?1&Resolution=1600x1200"type="image/svg+xml"/></SVG holder>
  371. # [09:07] <HTML5_Lurker> Consider (a+b)^2 in TeX. The superscript is attached to the parenthesis character, not the expression!
  372. # [09:07] <zcorpan> list_of_html_elements += embed
  373. # [09:08] <hsivonen> Hixie: I wonder what people who write stuff like that are thinking
  374. # [09:08] <Hixie> zcorpan: my script outputs a bunch of stuff, including sample URIs for every element combination, which is going to be interesting in terms of disk space (first time i've tried outputting a sample URI per interesting data point combination)
  375. # [09:08] <zcorpan> hsivonen: obviously, they are serving the semantics gods
  376. # [09:09] <HTML5_Lurker> hsivonen: It's the same as writing, say, <flame>blah blah</flame>. Make up tags as needed.
  377. # [09:09] <Hixie> zcorpan: it also outputs a list of all the elements found in <math> and <svg>
  378. # [09:09] <Hixie> zcorpan: that aren't valid there
  379. # [09:09] <Hixie> zcorpan: so it'll be easy to copy and paste it straight into the spec :-)
  380. # [09:09] <zcorpan> Hixie: how much disk space do you have to spare? :)
  381. # [09:10] <Hixie> it starts getting unwieldy when my reults .csv is a few gigabytes
  382. # [09:10] <Hixie> results
  383. # [09:11] <Hixie> <td width="592"><svg width="200" height="200" viewBox="0 0 200 200"><img name="r1_c1" src="map/resortmap.jpg" width="600" height="465" border="0" alt="Cocopah RV and Golf Resort" usemap="#r1_c1Map"><map name="r1_c1Map"><area shape="rect" coords="4,2,298,230" href="map/lmp1a.jpg"><area shape="rect" coords="1,230,296,460" href="map/lmp1b.jpg"><area shape="rect" coords="297,4,598,231" href="map/lmp2a.jpg"><area shape="rect" coords="297,231,599,462" hr
  384. # [09:11] <Hixie> </svg> </td>
  385. # [09:11] <Hixie> - http://www.cocopahrv.com/map.html
  386. # [09:11] <Hixie> _now_ do you believe me about the copy/paste thing?
  387. # [09:11] <Hixie> :-P
  388. # [09:12] <Hixie> you know, even what we have in the spec now is going to break that page
  389. # [09:13] <Hixie> crap
  390. # [09:13] <Hixie> maybe i should make svg elements that get bailed out of like that lose their namespace
  391. # [09:13] <annevk> svg:empty { display:none } maybe
  392. # [09:14] <annevk> though if there's whitespace that might not work...
  393. # [09:14] <zcorpan> what happens with <svg>foo<br> ?
  394. # [09:14] <Hixie> well we're just lucky that the <svg> element there doesn't have e.g. the <Rect> before hte <img>, or an empty <defs>, or just some text or whitespace, yeah
  395. # [09:14] <annevk> that too would break it
  396. # [09:15] * Joins: epeus (n=KevinMar@c-98-207-134-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  397. # [09:19] <HTML5_Lurker> I've must depart for now. I can return another time. But is the die cast that HTML5 will essentially inherit SVG and MathML? (In which case I'm not sure what I can contribute.)
  398. # [09:21] <HTML5_Lurker> Notice that most of the content in SVG is not in tags but in the path element with its "d" attribute. That's got its own parser, and is deliberately concise.
  399. # [09:21] <Hixie> well, one thing you can contribute is ideas for how we can handle http://www.cocopahrv.com/map.html so that any SVG support we add doesn't break that page :-)
  400. # [09:21] <Hixie> or pages like it
  401. # [09:22] <Hixie> (e.g. i'm sure similar pages exist where the xmlns="" attribute isn't omitted)
  402. # [09:24] <annevk> HTML5_Lurker, the idea is to provide a syntax for SVG and MathML, yes, as they're already implemented by a number of user agents
  403. # [09:26] <Hixie> i'm really at a loss as to how to handle this page
  404. # [09:27] <Hixie> short of going and changing all the namespaces or something
  405. # [09:27] <HTML5_Lurker> annevk: Thanks.
  406. # [09:28] <hsivonen> changing namespaces on existing nodes would suck
  407. # [09:28] <Hixie> yes
  408. # [09:28] <Hixie> no kidding
  409. # [09:28] <hsivonen> having to change the objects
  410. # [09:28] <Hixie> but what else can we do?
  411. # [09:28] <zcorpan> drop attributes?
  412. # [09:28] <hsivonen> let the page break
  413. # [09:28] <Hixie> the idea is to not break pages
  414. # [09:28] <othermaciej> changing the namespace is about as easy as changing the tag name
  415. # [09:28] <Hixie> :-)
  416. # [09:29] <othermaciej> (in fact it's pretty much the same thing)
  417. # [09:29] <othermaciej> (and can only really be done by replacing the node entirely)
  418. # [09:29] <zcorpan> dropping width and height would make the page not break, no?
  419. # [09:29] <annevk> all these solutions suck for SAX
  420. # [09:29] <hsivonen> Hixie: diminishing returns at *some* point
  421. # [09:29] <HTML5_Lurker> Hixie: I'm confused about latitude of change. Is the idea to invent a new syntax but one that doesn't break a significant number of existing pages, however misbegotten?
  422. # [09:29] <annevk> what's wrong with svg:empty { }? i've yet to see something worse! :)
  423. # [09:29] <Hixie> zcorpan: actually it would make it only 50px better, since it'd become 300x150 instead of 200x200
  424. # [09:29] <hsivonen> or diminishing at any point
  425. # [09:29] <hsivonen> but too small to bother at some point
  426. # [09:30] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@72.14.224.1) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  427. # [09:30] <Hixie> yeah i guess i'll leave it for now and see what else comes up
  428. # [09:30] <zcorpan> Hixie: ok, set width and height to 0?
  429. # [09:30] <annevk> and if :empty doesn't work, we can try :-moz-only-whitespace
  430. # [09:30] <Hixie> HTML5_Lurker: the idea is to find a solution to the problems described in http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/New_Vocabularies that breaks fewer pages when implemented than the existing proposal
  431. # [09:31] <Hixie> oh well. bed time for now.
  432. # [09:31] <Hixie> hopefully i'll have much more detailed data in the morning
  433. # [09:35] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-174-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  434. # [09:37] <HTML5_Lurker> Hixie: Thanks. I looked at that page first, of course. While it is less terse than the HTML5 spec, I found it hard to know how to interpret (without reading all the emails).
  435. # [09:38] * Joins: MacDome (n=eric@c-24-130-11-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  436. # [09:39] <HTML5_Lurker> Hixie: (That is, less terse than the part of HTML5 that refers to SVG and MathML!)
  437. # [09:41] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@c-24-130-11-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  438. # [09:42] * epeus is now known as KevinMarks
  439. # [09:42] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@c-24-130-11-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  440. # [09:43] * Joins: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  441. # [09:52] * Joins: jruderman_ (n=jruderma@c-67-180-174-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  442. # [09:52] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-174-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  443. # [10:01] <annevk> HTML5_Lurker, somewhat human readable summary is here: http://annevankesteren.nl/2008/04/html5-foreign
  444. # [10:02] <HTML5_Lurker> annevk: Thanks! (The amount of email is daunting.)
  445. # [10:04] <annevk> The HTML5 specification currently only defines the absolute minimum required for tool vendors and user agents to implement this stuff (well, apart from the detail we were just discussing). It completely lacks a clear authoring summary and I suppose Hixie will wait with writing that until it becomes a bit more stable. Like, when we get two implementations.
  446. # [10:13] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@nat/canonical/x-a6520c583a7c7507) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  447. # [10:14] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@nat/canonical/x-6c27174bb9158b4a)
  448. # [10:15] <HTML5_Lurker> All: Bye for now.
  449. # [10:16] * Quits: HTML5_Lurker (n=chatzill@c-67-177-161-58.hsd1.ky.comcast.net) ("ChatZilla 0.9.61 [Mozilla rv:1.7.13/20060414]")
  450. # [10:28] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  451. # [10:31] <BenMillard> http://nikitathespider.com/articles/ByTheNumbers/#doctypes compared to http://nikitathespider.com/articles/ByTheNumbers/#MediaTypes tells me authors emphatically favour hype over reality...something I kind of suspected
  452. # [10:31] <BenMillard> (which is kind of embarrassing, since I'm an author)
  453. # [10:34] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  454. # [10:43] * Joins: qwert666 (n=qwert666@acab97.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)
  455. # [10:44] * Joins: tommorris (n=tommorri@i-83-67-98-32.freedom2surf.net)
  456. # [10:48] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@ti200710a340-2662.bb.online.no) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  457. # [10:50] * Quits: MacDome (n=eric@c-24-130-11-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  458. # [11:01] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  459. # [11:02] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Ex-Chat")
  460. # [11:02] <hsivonen> NVDL support deployed
  461. # [11:02] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-b02ea709b232317e)
  462. # [11:04] <annevk> You spport NVDL for your own custom vocabulary of XML? Much like the support for RelaxNG?
  463. # [11:05] <hsivonen> annevk: You can now use your own custom NVDL schemas in the complex UI
  464. # [11:05] <hsivonen> annevk: the presets are still NVDLless and will probably stay that way for the foreseeable future
  465. # [11:08] <hsivonen> I wonder if I should enable half-assed XSD support in order to lure people to discover the RELAX NG side...
  466. # [11:18] <othermaciej> what is NVDL?
  467. # [11:20] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: way to handle validation of documents that have multiple vocabularies
  468. # [11:20] <MikeSmith> I think
  469. # [11:21] <hsivonen> othermaciej: NVDL is a kind of a job control schema language that dispatches parts of the document to different subschemas
  470. # [11:22] * Parts: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  471. # [11:23] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@c-24-130-11-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  472. # [11:25] * Joins: met_ (n=Hassman@r5bx220.net.upc.cz)
  473. # [11:27] <MikeSmith> FYI, for folks who feel they must know right away about Webkit checkins:
  474. # [11:28] <MikeSmith> http://twitter.com/webkit
  475. # [11:28] <MikeSmith> http://sideshowbarker.net/2008/04/08/webkit-twitter/
  476. # [11:40] <annevk> Hixie, you forgot xml:lang
  477. # [11:45] * Quits: Thezilch (i=fuz007@cpe-76-170-22-70.socal.res.rr.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  478. # [12:04] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  479. # [12:13] * Joins: maikmerten_ (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  480. # [12:14] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  481. # [12:17] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@210-84-23-247.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("bye")
  482. # [12:19] * Joins: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  483. # [12:19] * Quits: jwalden (n=waldo@RANDOM-SEVENTY-TWO.MIT.EDU) (Remote closed the connection)
  484. # [12:35] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@210-84-23-247.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  485. # [12:40] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  486. # [12:41] <annevk> hsivonen, I know some people who work with XSD. Though they have their own validator/editor for it. (As part of Web-based WYSIWYG XML editor.)
  487. # [12:42] <hsivonen> annevk: so far, I have gotten 2 inquiries about XSD
  488. # [12:42] <hsivonen> not huge expressed demand
  489. # [12:42] <hsivonen> and I'm not willing to make the error messages good
  490. # [12:42] <hsivonen> by default, they would suck incredibly badly
  491. # [12:42] <MikeSmith> annevk: hsivonen: have you made hotel reservations for XTech yet?
  492. # [12:42] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yes
  493. # [12:42] <annevk> no
  494. # [12:43] <annevk> I don't have tickets either, KLM doesn't fly to Dublin...
  495. # [12:43] <hsivonen> that is, I don't want to make error messages bad, but they are bad in off-the-shelf software
  496. # [12:43] <annevk> and I might go from Spain, dunno yet
  497. # [12:44] <hsivonen> flights from HEL to DUB are surprisingly bad
  498. # [12:44] <hsivonen> my return goes through Frankfurt
  499. # [12:45] <MikeSmith> annevk: if you looking for a relatively inexpensive hotel close by -
  500. # [12:45] <annevk> the Irish airline doesn't go to HEL?
  501. # [12:45] <MikeSmith> http://www.georgefredrickhandelhotel.com/
  502. # [12:45] <MikeSmith> 85 euro
  503. # [12:45] <hsivonen> annevk: if you mean Ryan Air, no
  504. # [12:45] <gsnedders> and Air Lingus?
  505. # [12:45] <MikeSmith> compared to the "special" 190 euro rate that the conference hotel is charging
  506. # [12:45] <annevk> no, Air Lingus I think
  507. # [12:46] <annevk> Ryan Air is Irish?
  508. # [12:46] <gsnedders> annevk: founder is
  509. # [12:46] * annevk thought it was British
  510. # [12:46] <annevk> oh
  511. # [12:46] <gsnedders> annevk: it operates from Britain, though
  512. # [12:46] <annevk> ah
  513. # [12:46] <hsivonen> Ryan Air flies from Tampere--not Helsinki
  514. # [12:46] <gsnedders> to London, though
  515. # [12:46] <hsivonen> dunno about Lingus
  516. # [12:47] <gsnedders> (or to Dublin too?)
  517. # [12:47] <gsnedders> I flew from Stansted (which is really nowhere near London, but hey) to Tempere once
  518. # [12:47] <gsnedders> Wikipedia says it is based in Dublin. Oh well.
  519. # [12:49] <gsnedders> Aer Lingus seems to fly to both HEL and AMS
  520. # [12:49] <hsivonen> gsnedders: well, they don't integrate to the right booking systems, then
  521. # [12:49] <hsivonen> too late
  522. # [12:50] <gsnedders> airline booking sucks.
  523. # [12:50] <gsnedders> (I'm unable to go to XTech, in part down to it being in school time, but also because I'd rather go to the TP — and I can probably make it to one, but not both)
  524. # [12:57] * Joins: jwalden (n=waldo@RANDOM-SEVENTY-TWO.MIT.EDU)
  525. # [13:05] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-b02ea709b232317e)
  526. # [13:29] * Joins: tndH_ (i=Rob@adsl-87-102-77-74.karoo.KCOM.COM)
  527. # [13:29] * tndH_ is now known as tndH
  528. # [13:44] * Joins: Camaban (n=alee@77-103-78-94.cable.ubr08.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk)
  529. # [13:47] <annevk> I'm using <figure> on my about page now, together with <p>...
  530. # [13:49] <annevk> hmm, doesn't validate
  531. # [13:50] <annevk> seems to be a bug in the validator
  532. # [13:54] <zcorpan> <link rel="stylesheet" style="text/css" href ... - http://www.hangame.com/
  533. # [13:55] <zcorpan> annevk: <credit>!
  534. # [13:56] <annevk> advantage over <p>?
  535. # [13:56] <annevk> maybe I should use <small>
  536. # [13:56] <annevk> now here's an idea
  537. # [13:56] * annevk looks for the dfn of small
  538. # [13:57] <annevk> small fits
  539. # [13:59] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@dhcp-246-231.mag.keio.ac.jp) ("Less talk, more pimp walk.")
  540. # [14:08] * Joins: heycam` (n=cam@210-84-23-247.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  541. # [14:22] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@210-84-23-247.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  542. # [14:24] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-c180e73de8e60e17)
  543. # [14:54] <hsivonen> annevk: url?
  544. # [14:54] * hsivonen sees "about page" now
  545. # [14:55] <hendry> anyone know or have a test to verify support of GZIP compression on a UA? I guess sniffing the HTTP headers or something ...
  546. # [14:57] <gsnedders> hendry: just looking at Accept-Encoding?
  547. # [15:05] <annevk> hsivonen, http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fannevankesteren.nl%2Fabout
  548. # [15:06] <annevk> hsivonen, it also only flags the end tag
  549. # [15:07] <hsivonen> annevk: it flags the end tag, because only at the end tag it know that children were missing
  550. # [15:09] <hsivonen> hmm. figure has changed when I or my script weren't looking
  551. # [15:10] <annevk> during the content model revamp presumably
  552. # [15:10] <hsivonen> unlikely
  553. # [15:11] <hsivonen> hmm. I should get rid of the word "prose" in the schema
  554. # [15:11] <annevk> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=1239&to=1240
  555. # [15:12] <annevk> ah, content models was 1152
  556. # [15:16] * Parts: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  557. # [15:17] <hsivonen> annevk: fix deployed
  558. # [15:18] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks for reporting the bug
  559. # [15:20] * Quits: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  560. # [15:22] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  561. # [15:28] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  562. # [15:31] * Joins: csarven (n=csarven@on-irc.csarven.ca)
  563. # [15:39] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@58.157.21.205)
  564. # [16:01] * Joins: davidb (n=davidb@142.150.154.101)
  565. # [16:05] * hsivonen wonders if Google App engine is going to add Java support
  566. # [16:13] * Joins: blooberry (n=brian@c-76-126-194-196.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  567. # [16:16] <annevk> hmm, blogsearch.google.com doens't pick up my blog updates anymore
  568. # [16:16] * annevk wonders if it misses more
  569. # [16:17] <annevk> http://nevali.net/2008/04/im-not-sure-what-the-html-wg-thinks-its-playing-at/
  570. # [16:17] * Joins: qwert666_ (n=qwert666@acbc82.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)
  571. # [16:18] <hsivonen> annevk: it's not like browsers were removing XML support
  572. # [16:19] <annevk> i don't get his point
  573. # [16:20] * Joins: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  574. # [16:21] * Quits: maikmerten_ (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  575. # [16:21] * Quits: toruvinn (n=toruvinn@chello089079118002.chello.pl) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  576. # [16:23] <takkaria> all the people posting about this quite clearly have no grasp of the problem of even trying to add "distributed extensibility" and the syntax issues it introduces
  577. # [16:23] <gsnedders> I still don't like the attitude of TBL being god: does the original creator of the wheel have much to do with the wheel as it is today?
  578. # [16:23] <annevk> yeah, Dave Orchard called it horrific as well but provided no alternative
  579. # [16:23] <gsnedders> XML5!
  580. # [16:24] <annevk> XML5 doesn't work for text/html
  581. # [16:24] <gsnedders> I know :)
  582. # [16:24] <hsivonen> annevk: I think this is an Overton Window issue
  583. # [16:24] <gsnedders> And it isn't backwards compatible, either, really.
  584. # [16:24] * takkaria nods hsivonen, I was thinking that
  585. # [16:24] <annevk> XML5 is backwards compatible with XML
  586. # [16:24] <gsnedders> annevk: I'll try and send a suggestion for encoding detection soon, BTW
  587. # [16:24] <MikeSmith> annevk: nevali.net dude just seems like another crank
  588. # [16:25] <gsnedders> annevk: yeah, but XML5 documents won't necessarily parse with existing parsers in the same way as they do with XML5 parsers
  589. # [16:25] <hsivonen> the amusing thing about distributed extensibility is that the TAG wants to enable it, but the WHATWG and the Atom WG still made (reportedly at least some of the) people at the W3C nervous
  590. # [16:27] <Philip`> gsnedders: The original creator of the wheel is dead, whereas TBL isn't, so it's not a comparable situation
  591. # [16:29] <roc> I should post about how we're dropping XML support in Gecko in favour of HTML5
  592. # [16:29] <gsnedders> roc: April 1 was last week! :P
  593. # [16:30] <takkaria> give it a few months and more people will come to see that html5 is operating within the constraints it has to... that seems to have happened for every other controversial thing html5 has done
  594. # [16:30] <Philip`> April 1 was just practice for the rest of the year
  595. # [16:31] * Joins: phsiao (n=shawn@nat/ibm/x-fe3a9f6dd8c75547)
  596. # [16:32] <annevk> wow, http://www.w3schools.com/tags/html5_datalist.asp
  597. # [16:32] <annevk> w3schools has things covered already
  598. # [16:33] <annevk> hehe, no example for <datagrid> or <datatemplate>
  599. # [16:33] <Philip`> That example seems a bit inconsistent in terms of trailing slashes
  600. # [16:33] <hsivonen> will this cause insurmountable cognitive dissonance when trying to tell people about w3schools? :-)
  601. # [16:34] * Quits: qwert666 (n=qwert666@acab97.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) (Connection timed out)
  602. # [16:36] <annevk> http://www.cre8asiteforums.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=61122 "However, the outcome appears likely to be different this time round... It's like deja-vu, all over again."
  603. # [16:36] <Philip`> I like that they talk about the "<!--..--> tag" and "<!DOCTYPE> tag", instead of being pedantically correct and causing needless confusion
  604. # [16:37] <takkaria> annevk: I would question the "albeit behind the curtain of the WHATWG HTML5 mailing list"
  605. # [16:38] <Camaban> if you'd like to respond to those kinds of comments, we'd welcome clarification at the forums :)
  606. # [16:38] <Philip`> It's quite a see-through curtain
  607. # [16:38] <annevk> oh heh, I only saw the confused statements at the end :)
  608. # [16:39] <annevk> Camaban, you're a member of that forum?
  609. # [16:39] <Camaban> annevk: an admin, yes
  610. # [16:39] <annevk> maybe you can help him out ;)
  611. # [16:39] <takkaria> like a shower curtain, I guess, or maybe a wet shower curtain with light being shone through it
  612. # [16:40] <Camaban> I haven't commented because I'm not too up on the particular point, and I get lost with the number of replies generated on the mailing list at times :)
  613. # [16:42] <Camaban> I think the 'behind the curtain' comment is about the fact that the explosion of debate is mostly restricted to the mailing list, rather than all over the itnernet
  614. # [16:44] * Joins: epeus (n=KevinMar@72.14.224.1)
  615. # [16:44] <zcorpan> "The HTML 5 working group includes AOL, Apple, Google, IBM, Microsoft, Mozilla, Nokia, Opera and many hundred other vendors." -- http://www.w3schools.com/tags/html5.asp
  616. # [16:45] <annevk> Camaban, I guess that's fair enough, though most debate happened on the HTML WG list :)
  617. # [16:46] <jwalden> *that's* what passes for debate these days? or did opinions get more civil, more substantive, and less pompous since I last looked?
  618. # [16:47] <Camaban> annevk: I'll add a ote pointing to their public archives, once I find them :)
  619. # [16:47] <Camaban> *note
  620. # [16:47] <annevk> Camaban, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/
  621. # [16:47] <annevk> Camaban, my blog has a summary too
  622. # [16:47] <Camaban> thanks, I'll link to both
  623. # [16:48] <annevk> jwalden, the Math WG consists of very reasonable people :)
  624. # [16:48] <jwalden> we're talking HTML, not Math
  625. # [16:48] <annevk> sure, but the debate was mostly with them
  626. # [16:49] <jwalden> I'm talking in general, not with respect to a specific issue
  627. # [16:49] <hsivonen> jwalden: the HTML WG is now much better than a year ago. when was your last look?
  628. # [16:49] <zcorpan> "The <dl> tag defines a definition list.
  629. # [16:49] <zcorpan> Differences Between HTML 4.01 and HTML 5
  630. # [16:49] <zcorpan> NONE" -- http://www.w3schools.com/tags/html5_dl.asp
  631. # [16:49] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-98-207-134-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  632. # [16:49] <jwalden> sometime less than a year ago, but probably more than six months
  633. # [16:50] <annevk> zcorpan, w3schools doesn't care about semantics or pedantic stuff as Philip` already indicated :)
  634. # [16:50] <Camaban> zcorpan: some wish w3schoosl would roll over and die due to it's various inaccuracies
  635. # [16:51] * epeus is now known as KevinMarks
  636. # [16:51] <annevk> instead of wishing that, they should try competing with them
  637. # [16:52] <Camaban> I think most people able to realise w3schools is inaccurate find the actual specs to be the place to look
  638. # [16:52] <zcorpan> it just amuses me that they don't even look up what they are writing about
  639. # [16:53] <Camaban> though learning to read the specs can be a skill in itself
  640. # [16:53] <zcorpan> perhaps we should have w3schools style but correct information on a wiki?
  641. # [16:54] <annevk> should I make wiki.html5.org?
  642. # [16:54] <Camaban> that could be a good idea
  643. # [16:55] <annevk> i'll do it if people are willing to put content on it :)
  644. # [16:55] <annevk> (wiki.whatwg.org is prolly better reserved for spec stuff)
  645. # [16:55] * zcorpan will put some content in it
  646. # [16:55] <annevk> ok, i might too
  647. # [16:56] * annevk goes to figure out how much trouble it is
  648. # [16:56] <zcorpan> the html wg has 50 (?) people who indicated they want to contribute with tutorial stuff
  649. # [16:56] <annevk> hehe
  650. # [16:56] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  651. # [16:58] <annevk> whoa, dreamhost has deals with google going on
  652. # [16:58] <Camaban> yeah, I just saw a load of google apps stuff earlier
  653. # [16:58] <Camaban> not sure I like the idea that it's all ticked by default...
  654. # [16:59] <annevk> yeah, and a way to host a domain using google page creator as backend
  655. # [16:59] <annevk> i didn't like that either
  656. # [17:00] <Lachy> the competitor to w3schools will be the HTML5 authoring guide I'm supposed to be writing (bug haven't had time to work on lately)
  657. # [17:01] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Leaving")
  658. # [17:10] <gsnedders> s/bug/but/?
  659. # [17:17] <Philip`> The problem is you can't compete on anything other than quality, so you'll probably lose to W3Schools
  660. # [17:21] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  661. # [17:21] <Philip`> Also you would probably insist on being correct, and therefore lose your target audience
  662. # [17:21] <Camaban> heh
  663. # [17:21] * Quits: qwert666_ (n=qwert666@acbc82.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) ("Leaving")
  664. # [17:22] <gsnedders> Philip`: I piss off people in some FOSS projects by being correct :P
  665. # [17:23] <Philip`> Maybe that means you should sometimes be less correct :-)
  666. # [17:23] <gsnedders> Philip`: That means being wrong. I can't do that!
  667. # [17:24] <Philip`> Correctness isn't a goal itself, it's just a means to some other goal, and sometimes it's not the best way of reaching that goal
  668. # [17:24] * Joins: cgriego (n=cgriego@cpe-76-183-49-187.tx.res.rr.com)
  669. # [17:25] * gsnedders points out he's an asshole (under markp's definition)
  670. # [17:25] <Camaban> http://xkcd.com/386/ always fits :)
  671. # [17:25] * gsnedders guesses which one that is and doesn't look
  672. # [17:25] <Camaban> heh
  673. # [17:26] <gsnedders> "someone on the internet is wrong"?
  674. # [17:26] * Camaban nods
  675. # [17:26] <gsnedders> heh.
  676. # [17:26] <zcorpan> no, "someone is wrong on the internet"
  677. # [17:26] <gsnedders> :D
  678. # [17:26] <gsnedders> _I_ am wrong.
  679. # [17:26] <Camaban> zcorpan: "someone is <u>wrong</u> on the internet."
  680. # [17:26] <Camaban> :P
  681. # [17:27] <Camaban> there we go, target audience lost
  682. # [17:27] <zcorpan> Camaban: i dropped presentational markup in my serialisation
  683. # [17:28] <davidb> interesting use of alt text on that comic strip... incorrect use but still interesting.
  684. # [17:28] * davidb puts his accessibility hat back on
  685. # [17:28] <Camaban> zcorpan: well, I'd tend advise against using underline for adding emphasis on the web anyway, perhaps <strong> would've been better :P
  686. # [17:28] <davidb> err i mean Title
  687. # [17:28] <davidb> title even
  688. # [17:28] <gsnedders> Camaban: that's importance!
  689. # [17:29] <gsnedders> Camaban: <em> is emphasis!
  690. # [17:29] * Quits: roc (n=roc@CPE-58-168-133-206.vic.bigpond.net.au) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  691. # [17:29] * Camaban is wrong on the internets
  692. # [17:29] <Camaban> is underlining "wrong" importance or emphasis then? :)
  693. # [17:30] <takkaria> davidb: tis not wrong imo
  694. # [17:30] <davidb> takkaria: yeah i agree.
  695. # [17:30] <gsnedders> Camaban: in that case it is ambiguous to anyone apart from the author :P
  696. # [17:30] <Camaban> heh
  697. # [17:31] <annevk> ok peoples, spam it: http://wiki.html5.org/wiki/Main_Page
  698. # [17:31] <Camaban> oh I love how anal semantics end up getting...
  699. # [17:31] <gsnedders> Now, what was this about me doing school work again?
  700. # [17:36] <annevk> does anyone know where I can change the sidebar?
  701. # [17:37] <annevk> we don't need donations and the community portal will be on the main page I guess
  702. # [17:37] <annevk> oh, and current events can probably be dropped too
  703. # [17:40] <takkaria> need a snappy logo too
  704. # [17:40] <annevk> yeah, can you make one?
  705. # [17:42] <takkaria> I'm playing with designs on inkscape as we speak :)
  706. # [17:48] * Quits: met_ (n=Hassman@r5bx220.net.upc.cz) ("Chemists never die, they just stop reacting.")
  707. # [18:04] <takkaria> http://entai.co.uk/tmp/icon.svg I suppose you could call it snappy
  708. # [18:04] <takkaria> it's a start, anyway
  709. # [18:05] * Joins: davidb_ (n=davidb@142.150.154.101)
  710. # [18:06] * Quits: cgriego (n=cgriego@cpe-76-183-49-187.tx.res.rr.com)
  711. # [18:08] <annevk> it doesn't seem to get scaled properly
  712. # [18:09] <annevk> but that's prolly a bug in Opera
  713. # [18:09] <annevk> well, and it's undefined in CSS currently :)
  714. # [18:09] <gsnedders> CSS5!
  715. # [18:11] <annevk> well, it's being defined now in CSS 2.1
  716. # [18:12] <annevk> can the person who added the literal string "SPAM" remove it again? :)
  717. # [18:12] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Ex-Chat")
  718. # [18:12] <gsnedders> I thought that's what you meant by currently :)
  719. # [18:12] <Camaban> is there currently any kind of regular overview of the goings on of the mailing list? or is it just a case of interesting topics tend to gt a blog post or 2 by someone?
  720. # [18:13] <annevk> no summaries
  721. # [18:13] <annevk> if someone wants to make them every week they could go on the wiki...
  722. # [18:14] <Camaban> ok, it's jsut that I posted in the cre8asite forums thread, and I got a reply about some people not being able to keep up with the technical talks in the mailing list, which is fair, and that some people jsut want stuff to work, and only make a fuss when it does, which is a bit less air
  723. # [18:15] <Camaban> *fair
  724. # [18:15] * takkaria cleans up the svg source for that logo
  725. # [18:16] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  726. # [18:17] * Joins: MacDome (n=eric@c-24-130-11-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  727. # [18:17] <annevk> we could also have just the string "<input>" as logo
  728. # [18:20] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-174-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  729. # [18:20] * Quits: jruderman_ (n=jruderma@c-67-180-174-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  730. # [18:21] * Joins: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-218-215.dsl.pipex.com)
  731. # [18:22] * Quits: davidb (n=davidb@142.150.154.101) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  732. # [18:22] * Quits: MacDome (n=eric@c-24-130-11-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  733. # [18:26] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@ti200710a340-2662.bb.online.no)
  734. # [18:44] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@72.14.224.1) ("The computer fell asleep")
  735. # [18:55] * Quits: csarven (n=csarven@on-irc.csarven.ca) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  736. # [19:07] * Quits: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-218-215.dsl.pipex.com)
  737. # [19:07] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@nat/canonical/x-6c27174bb9158b4a) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  738. # [19:10] * Joins: qwert666 (n=qwert666@acbc82.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)
  739. # [19:12] * Joins: csarven (i=csarven@on-irc.csarven.ca)
  740. # [19:21] <annevk> i think the w3schools stuff was based on html5-diff
  741. # [19:23] * Joins: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober)
  742. # [19:26] * Joins: andersca (n=andersca@nat/apple/x-d88d3e6b5aef6767)
  743. # [19:28] <Hixie> http://www.laroseweb.com/calcs/fans.php is aesome
  744. # [19:28] <Hixie> awesome
  745. # [19:28] <annevk> takkaria, I put some logo in place until yours is ready to be used
  746. # [19:29] <annevk> takkaria, the current one is 160x160 fwiw
  747. # [19:29] <takkaria> annevk: k, I guess a png one would be more useful
  748. # [19:30] <Hixie> wtf is the <math> in http://articulo.mercadolibre.com.mx/MLM-19037478-cajon-con-bajo-mtx-thunder-12-bajo-descompuesto-_JM for
  749. # [19:30] <annevk> takkaria, probably, unless we want to make this Opera 9.5 only
  750. # [19:31] <annevk> Hixie, triggering the right font maybe?
  751. # [19:31] <annevk> that markup is sad btw
  752. # [19:39] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@ti200710a340-2662.bb.online.no) (Remote closed the connection)
  753. # [19:39] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@ti200710a340-2662.bb.online.no)
  754. # [19:40] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-174-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  755. # [19:41] * Joins: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-218-215.dsl.pipex.com)
  756. # [19:41] * Joins: andersca_ (n=andersca@nat/apple/x-7cffaf82cbf1d087)
  757. # [19:41] * Quits: andersca (n=andersca@nat/apple/x-d88d3e6b5aef6767) (Connection reset by peer)
  758. # [19:42] <Hixie> ok, list of HTML elements updated
  759. # [19:45] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  760. # [19:46] <andersca_> Hixie: so I like the idea about having "cached" fire when all the resources in the manifest have finished loading
  761. # [19:46] <andersca_> Hixie: regardless of any implicit resources
  762. # [19:47] <andersca_> Hixie: however, what should happen if the URL to the implicit resource is in the manifest?
  763. # [19:48] <annevk> Hixie, is <font> used inside <svg> in an HTML way?
  764. # [19:49] <annevk> Hixie, if it only affects <math> it might make sense to just scope it to that
  765. # [19:49] <Hixie> andersca_: hm
  766. # [19:50] * andersca_ is now known as andersca
  767. # [19:52] <Hixie> andersca: step 20.2 requires you to fetch teh resource before you continue
  768. # [19:52] <Hixie> andersca: that can share the same network fetching attempt as the original one, but either way, it has to be fetched first
  769. # [19:53] <andersca> Hixie: ah
  770. # [19:54] <andersca> Hixie: there is a similar issue in step 2 of
  771. # [19:54] <andersca> Hixie: "If the resource being loaded was not loaded from an application cache, but it was loaded using HTTP GET or equivalent"
  772. # [19:54] <andersca> in the selection process
  773. # [19:55] <andersca> Hixie: where the implicit resource might be in the cache, and might or might not have been fetched
  774. # [19:57] <Hixie> i don't follow
  775. # [19:58] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-f798c0afd0473155)
  776. # [19:58] <andersca> Hixie: the part about "store the resource in the matching cache with the most up to date version, categorised as an implicit entry"
  777. # [19:59] <andersca> Hixie: what if that resource is already in the cache
  778. # [19:59] <andersca> should it be replaced?
  779. # [19:59] <Hixie> the cache selection process implies it's a top-level resource
  780. # [20:00] <Hixie> if a top-level resource is in any cache anywhere, it'll be fetched from the cache, not the network
  781. # [20:00] <Hixie> so you'll never get there in that situation
  782. # [20:00] <Hixie> you'll hit one of the previous two items in the cache selection process
  783. # [20:00] <andersca> ah, of course
  784. # [20:00] <andersca> thanks
  785. # [20:01] <Hixie> but there is one case that isn't covered
  786. # [20:01] <Hixie> which is if the resource isn't listed in the manifest
  787. # [20:01] <Hixie> so it's implicit
  788. # [20:01] <Hixie> i've made a note to myself that i should update the spec to say that the 'cached' event doesn't fire until all the implicit resources are loaded too
  789. # [20:03] <andersca> cool
  790. # [20:04] <andersca> Hixie: what about updateready
  791. # [20:05] <Hixie> same thing, yeah
  792. # [20:05] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@guest-226.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  793. # [20:15] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@guest-226.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  794. # [20:19] * Joins: MacDome (n=eric@c-24-130-11-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  795. # [20:26] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@ti200710a340-2662.bb.online.no) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  796. # [20:27] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@ti200710a340-2662.bb.online.no)
  797. # [20:48] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@guest-226.mountainview.mozilla.com) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  798. # [20:50] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  799. # [20:51] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-f798c0afd0473155) ("The computer fell asleep")
  800. # [21:12] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  801. # [21:12] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  802. # [21:16] * Quits: MacDome (n=eric@c-24-130-11-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  803. # [21:31] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@58.157.21.205) ("Less talk, more pimp walk.")
  804. # [21:32] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@72.14.224.1)
  805. # [21:38] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  806. # [21:38] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@72.14.224.1)
  807. # [21:39] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@72.14.224.1)
  808. # [21:49] * Joins: wakaba_ (n=w@21.163.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  809. # [22:06] * Quits: wakaba (n=w@201.162.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  810. # [22:10] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  811. # [22:12] <Hixie> well this page is doomed either way http://www.partos.se/Sidor/Svajmast.htm
  812. # [22:13] <Hixie> the vast majority of pages that have bogus <svg> elements in them seem to have them in blog posts, forum comments, etc, where someone forgot to escape the markup
  813. # [22:13] <Hixie> go... xss!
  814. # [22:16] <Hixie> http://puysl.com/view.htm makes me feel better about the ability for HTML to bail out of SVG context
  815. # [22:20] <annevk> it will still give a bad result
  816. # [22:20] <annevk> because of percentage handling in quirks mode
  817. # [22:21] <annevk> the thought of only enabling this in standards mode did occur to me given the samples provided so far, but it seems really bad
  818. # [22:22] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.172)
  819. # [22:27] * Joins: wakaba (n=w@20.162.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  820. # [22:32] * Joins: wakaba__ (n=w@211.137.148.210.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  821. # [22:35] * Quits: wakaba_ (n=w@21.163.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  822. # [22:36] * Quits: wakaba__ (n=w@211.137.148.210.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  823. # [22:36] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-c180e73de8e60e17)
  824. # [22:38] * Joins: wakaba_ (n=w@120.137.148.210.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  825. # [22:40] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  826. # [22:41] * Joins: eseidel_ (n=eseidel@adsl-75-36-129-161.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  827. # [22:46] * Quits: davidb_ (n=davidb@142.150.154.101)
  828. # [22:51] * Quits: wakaba (n=w@20.162.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  829. # [22:53] <Hixie> annevk: oh for sure it'll give something they're not expecting
  830. # [22:53] <Hixie> annevk: but at least it'll render _something_ :-)
  831. # [22:56] <jgraham> Hixie: Is it correct that setting <html>'s .innerHtml to be character data no longer gives a parse error
  832. # [22:56] <Hixie> i have no _idea_ what's going on here: http://albren.blogspot.com/
  833. # [22:56] <Hixie> jgraham: hm?
  834. # [22:56] <Hixie> you mean html.innerHTML = 'x'; ?
  835. # [22:56] <jgraham> yeah
  836. # [22:56] <Hixie> what parse error would it ever give?
  837. # [22:57] <jgraham> Before it gave Unexpected EOF in inner html mode
  838. # [22:57] <jgraham> in the html5lib testcases
  839. # [22:57] <jgraham> which we passed...
  840. # [22:57] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@72.14.224.1) (Connection timed out)
  841. # [22:57] <Hixie> i don't see why that would give an unexpected EOF
  842. # [22:57] <Hixie> maybe the spec was buggy before
  843. # [22:57] <Hixie> does it no longer?
  844. # [22:58] <jgraham> It doesn't seem to any more.
  845. # [22:58] <jgraham> The problem is resolving the degeneracy between the spec changing, the code being buggy and my reading being faulty :)
  846. # [22:58] <jgraham> (the new behaviour seems sensible fwiw)
  847. # [22:59] <Hixie> :-)
  848. # [22:59] <jgraham> s/new/current/
  849. # [23:08] * eseidel_ is now known as eseidel
  850. # [23:14] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.103.64)
  851. # [23:17] * Quits: qwert666 (n=qwert666@acbc82.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) ("Leaving")
  852. # [23:18] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@adsl-75-36-129-161.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  853. # [23:21] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host217-44-37-113.range217-44.btcentralplus.com) ("Partying in teh intarwebs")
  854. # [23:22] * Quits: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-218-215.dsl.pipex.com)
  855. # [23:28] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@c-24-130-11-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  856. # [23:28] <annevk> Camaban, we're not planning on defining any video codecs, fwiw
  857. # [23:30] <Camaban> annevk: is that new?
  858. # [23:31] <annevk> no
  859. # [23:32] * Camaban goes to reread
  860. # [23:32] * Joins: eseidel_ (n=eseidel@72.14.224.1)
  861. # [23:34] <Camaban> hmmm, well the current text is somewhat different to the last time I read it
  862. # [23:35] <Camaban> I can't remember exactly when that was, likely round the time of the fuss made over Ogg being removed
  863. # [23:35] <Hixie> which text?
  864. # [23:35] <annevk> I think the text hasn't changed since then
  865. # [23:36] <annevk> if you're talking about http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-video.html#video0
  866. # [23:37] <Camaban> yes, that's the text I'm refering to, perhaps I was reading something else previously then
  867. # [23:38] <Camaban> but I was under the impression Ogg was removed while either it was justified, or a better alternative was found, and that it was planned to include a codec in the spec?
  868. # [23:39] <annevk> a reference to one
  869. # [23:39] <annevk> as in, please all implement this codec so authors can make videos that work everywhere
  870. # [23:39] <Camaban> ah, I see, I wasn't aware of that
  871. # [23:39] * Quits: andersca (n=andersca@nat/apple/x-7cffaf82cbf1d087) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  872. # [23:40] <Camaban> makes more sense
  873. # [23:40] <hsivonen> http://www.sics.se/openhouse2008 "Olle Olsson: HTML 5? den nya HTML-standarden"
  874. # [23:41] <annevk> it's either "the new" or "that's not", I guess the former?
  875. # [23:42] * Joins: eseidelDesk_ (n=eseidelD@nat/google/x-54cb41988e9ac3ea)
  876. # [23:42] <annevk> well, or something else :p
  877. # [23:43] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host217-44-37-113.range217-44.btcentralplus.com)
  878. # [23:45] <hasather> annevk: it's "the new"
  879. # [23:48] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@c-24-130-11-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Connection timed out)
  880. # [23:55] * Quits: eseidelDesk (n=eseidelD@nat/google/x-592bfd9b4642e2a1) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  881. # [23:56] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.103.64)
  882. # [23:57] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.103.64)
  883. # Session Close: Wed Apr 09 00:00:00 2008

The end :)