/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-04-11 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Apr 11 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  4. # [00:03] <Philip`> jgraham: I'm not sure why that's relevant - you can't count integers forever but that doesn't mean there isn't an infinitely long list of them
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  9. # [00:08] <jgraham> Philip`: However you can't _have_ an infinitely long list of integers, you can only conceive of one.
  10. # [00:09] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@210-84-23-247.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("bye")
  11. # [00:09] <Philip`> jgraham: I can't _have_ a single integer either - it's only ever a concept :-)
  12. # [00:09] <jgraham> Right so not very relevant to webpages which you can have :)
  13. # [00:10] <Hixie> "1..oo" is an infinitely long list of integers
  14. # [00:12] <Philip`> Web pages are hugely abstracted from physical reality (e.g. silicon and electrons) so they're about the same situation as integers
  15. # [00:12] <othermaciej> you can have a representation of an integer
  16. # [00:13] <Philip`> I can have a representation of an infinite list of integers too, so there's still no difference
  17. # [00:14] <Hixie> ok i must not bid you all farewell
  18. # [00:14] <Hixie> for i am about to be roasted on a spit by the accessibility crowd
  19. # [00:15] <Hixie> er, must now
  20. # [00:15] * annevk looks at web-apps-tracker
  21. # [00:17] <Hixie> (i closed the alt text issue, issue-31)
  22. # [00:17] * jgraham is surprised to discover he argued for optional alt in 2005
  23. # [00:18] <Hixie> surprised in a good way or a bad way? :-)
  24. # [00:19] <jgraham> In a good way :)
  25. # [00:19] <Hixie> :-)
  26. # [00:20] <jgraham> I had just totally forgotten that thread whereas usually when I read old emails I wrote I at-least remember writing them
  27. # [00:21] <Philip`> "I'm not sure what else we can do short of just making it non-conforming to create bulk-upload image hosting sites or write documents that contain inkblot tests." - you could say something like "The alt attribute is required. If there is no suitable alternative text, then the alt attribute should be set to some other text that gives an indication of the image's purpose, such as its name (e.g. 'Rorschach test #19')."
  28. # [00:21] <Hixie> alt="Photo" ?
  29. # [00:21] <Hixie> that's less useful than no alt at all
  30. # [00:21] <Hixie> at least with no alt the UA can know to do something clever if it can
  31. # [00:22] <Hixie> like, in future, analyse the image or provide a physical representation of it
  32. # [00:22] <Hixie> in some sort of braille fashion
  33. # [00:22] <Hixie> but yeah, i guess you could
  34. # [00:23] <Philip`> It's less useful in a small number of cases, and it has the cost of preventing validators from saying missing alt is an error (hence fewer authors will use alt, because a reasonable number of authors do use validators and write error-free pages)
  35. # [00:23] <Philip`> If the UA is capable of doing something clever, it should always do that clever thing, not only in the cases where alt is missing
  36. # [00:23] <gavin_> having a useless alt present doesn't prevent UAs from doing something clever
  37. # [00:23] <gavin_> they could theoretically detect the uselessness
  38. # [00:23] <Hixie> true
  39. # [00:24] <Philip`> Detecting the usefulness of alt text doesn't seem any harder than analysing the image to create a textual representation of it
  40. # [00:24] <Hixie> personally i think that encouraging people to give useless alt text for a small set of images will make them think it's ok to give useless alt text for others
  41. # [00:24] <Hixie> but i agree that one could (and indeed many do) argue otherwise
  42. # [00:25] <Philip`> Then don't encourage them to ever give useless alt text, and instead let them decide themselves to give useless alt text because they can't do anything better
  43. # [00:26] <othermaciej> I think the biggest problem is tools, not people
  44. # [00:27] <othermaciej> in the case of end-user created content, it is unreasonable to force the tool to have mandatory UI for entering alt
  45. # [00:27] <othermaciej> in practice the tools then have no options but either missing or useless alt
  46. # [00:32] <Hixie> Philip`: one concern with the alt you suggest is that it would probably end up being redundant with other text in the same part of hte document, which is very annoying to AT users
  47. # [00:32] <Hixie> bbiab
  48. # [00:34] <Philip`> Have AT users said that it's "very annoying"? I'd guess they have enough problems that a little bit of repetition would hardly matter, compared to e.g. <a href><img src alt=""></a> which would be very annoying if it made the link invisible; but I don't know how these things affect people in practice
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  50. # [00:41] <Philip`> (...or compared to e.g. <a href=about.html><img src=button0.png></a> <a href=help.html><img src=button1.png></a> which is more relevant since that would happen more if people aren't told to add alt)
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  65. # [01:25] <Hixie> Philip`: repetition was one of the most annoying things i ran into when trying to use ATs
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  68. # [01:36] <annevk> Hixie, context.lineTo in the Issues Graph page throws NOT_SUPPORTED_ERR in Opera and in Firefox it seems to make the page really slow...
  69. # [01:37] <Hixie> ?
  70. # [01:37] <Hixie> why?
  71. # [01:37] <annevk> probably infinite value or something
  72. # [01:37] <annevk> it's "context.lineTo(lines[i].date, lines[i].count);"
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  74. # [01:39] <annevk> also, if you're looking at it, replace clientX/Y with pageX/Y
  75. # [01:40] <Hixie> why would that be infinite
  76. # [01:41] <annevk> not sure, but the page is not usable in a Firefox nightly nor in an Opera nightly and previously it was in both...
  77. # [01:41] <Hixie> you tried reloading since i removed the blank line in the csv file?
  78. # [01:42] <annevk> yes
  79. # [01:43] <annevk> (would be so nice if i could just make a video of my screen and share it with the world instantly to demonstrate how it runs)
  80. # [01:43] <Hixie> wfm in firefox
  81. # [01:43] <Philip`> It works for me in an Opera 9.5
  82. # [01:44] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  83. # [01:44] <Hixie> works better than safari instead, because safari has some weird painting/color issue with putImageData
  84. # [01:44] <Philip`> annevk: Put a heavy weight on your printscreen key
  85. # [01:44] <annevk> maybe I should get a newer Opera build...
  86. # [01:45] * Philip` suggests that putImageData isn't necessarily great for performance, particularly in Firefox
  87. # [01:45] <Hixie> i wasn't targetting real browsers
  88. # [01:45] <Hixie> i was targetting the spec
  89. # [01:46] <Philip`> That's a silly way to write web pages :-p
  90. # [01:46] <Hixie> it's the only way i know how :-P
  91. # [01:46] <annevk> why? that way you don't have to test and only have to write it instead of write refresh write etc.
  92. # [01:46] <Philip`> Clearly you are out of touch with real web developers
  93. # [01:47] <Philip`> I imagine it'd be better to have two canvases, with the static graph in the background one and the UI in the foreground one
  94. # [01:48] <Hixie> Philip`: right now, whatever is in the page now is what is best, since it works and requires 0 work to get working :-)
  95. # [01:48] <annevk> ok, works fine in Opera nightlies
  96. # [01:49] <Philip`> Also it would be nice to have text labels on the graph - I'd suggest using mozDrawText, since someone hasn't added a standard way of doing text :-)
  97. # [01:50] <Hixie> yeah there's a comment to that effect in the source
  98. # [01:50] <annevk> "XXX"
  99. # [01:50] <Hixie> where do people find the time to have these w3c telecons, sheesh
  100. # [01:51] <annevk> it's midnight :)
  101. # [01:51] <Philip`> Sadly no browser has yet implemented a feature which can execute the intent of comments :-(
  102. # [01:52] <othermaciej> it's not that hard to attend a lot of telecons if you have no other significant work to do
  103. # [01:53] <Hixie> annevk: i mean doing all the minutes, making sure the regrets are done, waiting for people to make the call, etc
  104. # [01:54] <Hixie> hey does anyone know which part of DOM Bindings defines the argument conversions?
  105. # [01:54] <Hixie> e.g. if I pass a Number to a method expecting unsigned long
  106. # [01:54] <Hixie> what happens?
  107. # [01:55] <annevk> hmm, so Number does not accept strings indeed, "50%" throws in Firefox and is silently ignored in Opera
  108. # [01:55] * Philip` has found more time in which to kill about six hundred imaginary people from a military helicopter and to raise nine million dollars than it would take for a telecon, so time is not really a problem (but motivation is :-) )
  109. # [01:55] <Hixie> playing games relaxes
  110. # [01:55] <Hixie> telecons don't :-P
  111. # [01:55] <Hixie> relaxing is a productive use of time
  112. # [01:55] <Hixie> as it increases the productivity of future time
  113. # [01:56] <Philip`> That would only work if I actually did something productive after relaxing, instead of either relaxing more or going to bed
  114. # [01:56] <Hixie> future time can come after sleep
  115. # [01:57] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au)
  116. # [01:57] <Philip`> But then I just play games the next day too :-p
  117. # [01:57] * Joins: csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable130.251-202-24.mc.videotron.ca)
  118. # [01:58] <annevk> and find time to tell us about it :)
  119. # [01:58] * MikeSmith wholeheartedly supports having less telcons and more relaxation... was on telcons for more than 3 hours yesterday
  120. # [01:58] * annevk hasn't played games in a while, apart from a failed attempt at a game of Risk today (the one that doesn't involve a computer screen)
  121. # [01:58] * takkaria is pedantic: s/less/fewer/
  122. # [01:59] <Hixie> Philip`: :-P
  123. # [02:00] <MikeSmith> in my case, I find the time for calls by mostly not having any choice :)
  124. # [02:00] * MikeSmith remembers the slogan from the 60s, What if they had a war and nobody came?
  125. # [02:01] <Philip`> That would never happen - the journalists and TV reporters would always turn up
  126. # [02:02] <MikeSmith> heh
  127. # [02:02] <jmb> well, they've gotta have /something/ to report on
  128. # [02:02] * MikeSmith considers forging a doctor's not about ear-problems-can't-use-telephone and bringing it to the W3C school nurse
  129. # [02:03] <MikeSmith> nurse: MikeSmith, this note is written in crayon
  130. # [02:03] <MikeSmith> MikeSmith: that's odd... must have been all that my doctor had around at the time
  131. # [02:04] * MikeSmith wonders why Konqueror can't open plain-text files itself
  132. # [02:04] <Philip`> How do people with hearing disabilities attend W3C telcons?
  133. # [02:04] <Hixie> probably the same way i do
  134. # [02:04] <Philip`> That sounds quite non-accessible if they have no choice
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  137. # [02:05] <Hixie> it's not that accessible even if you do
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  139. # [02:06] <heyadayo> Hello
  140. # [02:07] <Philip`> Hello
  141. # [02:08] <heyadayo> Does Opera 9's implementation of "Section 6.2 (Server-sent DOM events)" differ from the current version of the specification?
  142. # [02:09] <Philip`> Opera 9.2, or 9.5?
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  144. # [02:09] * Philip` doesn't know the answer anyway
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  146. # [02:11] <heyadayo> Philip`, 9.5, I suppose
  147. # [02:11] <annevk> yes
  148. # [02:12] <annevk> it does
  149. # [02:12] <Philip`> Substantially?
  150. # [02:12] <annevk> yes, we support a different mime type and format
  151. # [02:12] <annevk> i don't think we'll change that before release
  152. # [02:13] <Hixie> heycam: what happens if i call a method with too few arguments? 4.2.4. Operations sets up "arity" to handle this, but step 7 says to call the method with the given arguments without looking at arity.
  153. # [02:15] <Hixie> heycam: also, is there some way to declare a method without making it visible to JS? (in particular, i may want a [Stringifies] method that isn't itself visible, since the method becomes toString. Same with the [NameGetter, [NameSetter], and [Delete] operations i mentioned the other day -- i may want them to not be themselves visible.)
  154. # [02:15] <Hixie> let me know if i should send mail about any of these
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  157. # [02:27] <Hixie> wow, the w3c continues to have extreme optimism in release planning
  158. # [02:27] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/2007/12/WebApps-Charter-2007
  159. # [02:28] <dglazkov> I am a pretty flower
  160. # [02:29] * bradee-sleeps is now known as bradee-oh
  161. # [02:34] <takkaria> 16 specs to be delivered in under two years, nice
  162. # [02:35] <Philip`> That's the power of parallelism
  163. # [02:40] <MikeSmith> takkaria, one of those specs could have your name on it
  164. # [02:41] <Philip`> Is the editor allowed to rename the spec after themselves?
  165. # [02:41] <MikeSmith> if it's a good editor, hell yeah
  166. # [02:41] <MikeSmith> I'm all for that
  167. # [02:41] <Philip`> Scientists get things named after them all the time, and spec editors don't deserve any less
  168. # [02:41] <takkaria> "Andrew Sidwell's Geolocation API", nice
  169. # [02:42] <MikeSmith> you can add adjectives if you want also
  170. # [02:42] <MikeSmith> "Andrew Sidwell's Bitchin' Geolocation API"
  171. # [02:42] <takkaria> I'd have Fantabuloso I think
  172. # [02:43] <takkaria> I would love to help these things but I have my own open-source game to do read forums+newsgroups for, and over summer I'll be writing an html5 parser in C
  173. # [02:44] <MikeSmith> takkaria, yeah, if you do write that html5 parser in C that would be a great thing
  174. # [02:44] * Philip` needs to get back to implementing parsing, so he can have the first C HTML5 parser before everyone else and their pet tigers come along with ones
  175. # [02:44] <takkaria> well, co-writing, really, as not to mislabel myself as the only person who's working on it
  176. # [02:44] <MikeSmith> competition good
  177. # [02:45] <MikeSmith> co-writing not always good
  178. # [02:45] <Philip`> Cow-righting is always good, though
  179. # [02:45] <takkaria> is that the opposite of cow-tipping?
  180. # [02:46] <Philip`> Yes - you find a cow that is sleeping lying down, and then push it upright before it has woken up and noticed
  181. # [02:47] <Philip`> They get very confused when you do that
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  183. # [02:47] <takkaria> I could imagine
  184. # [02:51] <MikeSmith> btw, if anybody has comments on that WebApps draft charter that you feel compelled to have on record, the place to post them is public-new-work@w3.org
  185. # [02:51] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-new-work/2008Apr/0003.html
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  187. # [02:52] <MikeSmith> not that we want to encourage every jomoke off the street to stroll in and comment on charters
  188. # [02:53] <MikeSmith> but I think people here are not just jomokes off the street
  189. # [02:53] <MikeSmith> jomokes sitting in from on computers at home or at work, yeah
  190. # [02:53] <MikeSmith> but that's a different type of jomoke
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  192. # [03:17] * MikeSmith sees change in internal renaming of some Webkit stuff to more closely align with HTML5 wording
  193. # [03:17] <MikeSmith> http://trac.webkit.org/projects/webkit/changeset/31793
  194. # [03:18] <MikeSmith> [[
  195. # [03:18] <MikeSmith> The name "OriginStorage" never felt right to a few of us. The HTML5 spec refers to our
  196. # [03:18] <MikeSmith> concept of "OriginStorage" as a "storage area", which makes more sense here.
  197. # [03:18] <MikeSmith>
  198. # [03:18] <MikeSmith> This patch is basically:
  199. # [03:18] <MikeSmith> s/OriginStorage/StorageArea/
  200. # [03:18] <MikeSmith> ]]
  201. # [03:20] <heyadayo> annevk, Is there a page that details the exact specification for Opera's version of SSE, or a page that describes the differences between opera and the spec?
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  232. # [09:43] <heycam> [ot] does anyone know if it's possible to change the colour palette that os x's terminal uses?
  233. # [09:43] <heycam> the dark blue on black (from coloured ls output) is horrible to read
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  236. # [09:58] <zcorpan_> Hixie: &lt;img src="fluffy.jpg" alt="Fluffy, my cat, tends to keep itself busy."> -- can one understand from the image that the cat's name is Fluffy?
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  238. # [10:01] <virtuelv> zcorpan_: wouldn't that depend on what fluffy.jpg actually contains?
  239. # [10:02] <zcorpan_> virtuelv: yes
  240. # [10:02] <virtuelv> But I digress -- as an example, I would probably drop the name myself
  241. # [10:04] <virtuelv> Is it possible to both mourn and celebrate the death of the rev attribute?
  242. # [10:05] <zcorpan_> why mourn?
  243. # [10:05] <zcorpan_> and why celebrate? :P
  244. # [10:05] <virtuelv> celebrate because it was never used
  245. # [10:05] <virtuelv> mourn because there are situations where confirming relationships between two links is useful
  246. # [10:06] <virtuelv> s/links/resources/
  247. # [10:08] <virtuelv> and I'm celebrating since 'rel' is actually getting useful too
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  263. # [11:29] <annevk> heyadayo, older version of the HTML5 draft, might even be the one on w3.org/TR/html5/
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  268. # [11:55] <Lachy> Hixie, can you make that excessively long entity table in the spec be presented in multiple columns?
  269. # [11:58] <annevk> that's in the style sheet
  270. # [11:59] <annevk> though it might only work in WebKit (or maybe not, haven't tested)
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  306. # [12:05] <Lachy> From the spec: "Specifications intended for user agents must not define these [data-*] attributes to have any meaningful values. " - I wonder if that will stop the microformats community defining future microformats based on those attributes
  307. # [12:08] <annevk> there's an open issue on that
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  309. # [12:11] <Lachy> yeah, I just saw that
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  311. # [12:17] <hsivonen> I used three-column CSS for printing even the previous shorter entity table
  312. # [12:20] <hsivonen> why does the IETF specify Base16 and Base32?
  313. # [12:25] <BenMillard> hisivonen, just read your e-mails CC'ed to HTMLWG about ARIA in HTML5 integration
  314. # [12:26] <BenMillard> I'm glad there's someone as level-headed as you saying what needs to be said about making ARIA viable
  315. # [12:27] <hsivonen> BenMillard: I'm glad you agree that it needs to be said
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  319. # [13:11] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: i'm glad you're doing this, too, fwiw
  320. # [13:11] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: i have little time for aria stuff atm and you're better at expressing yourself than i am
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  324. # [13:16] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: thanks
  325. # [13:17] <annevk> I got an offlist reply with a pointer to the xml:id spec (re: my e-mail on www-math)...
  326. # [13:24] <BenMillard> zcorpan_, how did those telecons go?
  327. # [13:25] <BenMillard> (you mentioned needing to attend 3 over MSN with me some time ago)
  328. # [13:28] <zcorpan_> BenMillard: i attended to 2 of them
  329. # [13:30] <zcorpan_> one was with aaronlev and several people from microsoft discussing http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/ARIA_User_Agent_Implementors_Guide (which i haven't had time to properly review yet)
  330. # [13:32] * Philip`_ is now known as Philip`
  331. # [13:33] <Lachy> annevk, this is one of the ideas a friend of mine came up with for the html5.org logo. He's going to come up with some other, perhaps better ideas though.
  332. # [13:33] <Lachy> http://macos.dk/HTML5-logo.png http://macos.dk/HTML5-logo-BW.png
  333. # [13:33] <Lachy> I meant wiki.html5.org
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  335. # [13:36] <hsivonen> hmm. so when a data uri uses base64, spaces and other random stuff isn't allowed, even though line breaks are allowed in email. Right?
  336. # [13:37] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  337. # [13:38] <gsnedders> hsivonen: as far as I can see it is undefined
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  339. # [13:39] <BenMillard> zcorpan_, thanks. I'm off for lunch, bye all.
  340. # [13:40] <BenMillard> (also to avoid my PC getting killed by the thunderstorm here)
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  342. # [13:40] <hsivonen> gsnedders: the base64 rfc says prohibited unless allowed
  343. # [13:40] <gsnedders> hsivonen: but the data URI scheme one doesn't seem to normatively cite it
  344. # [13:41] <hsivonen> yay specs!
  345. # [13:41] <hsivonen> also, the base64 rfc defines a different base64url encoding
  346. # [13:41] <hsivonen> but data uris don't use that one
  347. # [13:43] <gsnedders> standards suck.
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  350. # [13:56] <annevk> Lachy, I think we need a logo that indicates it's about authoring in some way... maybe something with HTML syntax...
  351. # [14:00] * Philip` doesn't think logos need to present any information, they just need to look nice and be recognisable
  352. # [14:06] <hsivonen> looks like the alt thing is going to be a rathole again...
  353. # [14:06] <hsivonen> the reason why I care is that it is effectively about changing the way the product I develop works
  354. # [14:07] <hsivonen> and I think the change would be bad for the relationship between the product I develop and its users
  355. # [14:07] <annevk> and its users' users
  356. # [14:08] <hsivonen> yeah
  357. # [14:20] <hsivonen> data URIs should always be URIs, not IRIs, right?
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  359. # [14:21] <hsivonen> so it would be wrong to have non-ASCII in a data URI and expect it to get UTF-8-URIfied before data URI decoding, right?
  360. # [14:21] <Lachy> annevk, yeah, that's what I suggested to him
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  362. # [14:24] <hsivonen> looks like implementations indeed URIfy IRIs first...
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  365. # [14:26] <hsivonen> good times. there's even one more layer of juggling between characters and bytes in data uris
  366. # [14:28] <hsivonen> if I start responding to the alt thread now, I never get any software written
  367. # [14:29] * hsivonen keeps writing data URI support
  368. # [14:29] <annevk> there's no rush in the alt thread, that'll be an open issue until 2020 :)
  369. # [14:29] <annevk> or inf time
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  371. # [14:42] <hsivonen> Hixie: I think this is invalid http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/data/002.html (linebreak in URI) Is there something I'm missing?
  372. # [14:47] <hsivonen> cool http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/data/006.html exposes an internal bug in V.nu
  373. # [14:47] <MikeSmith> As far as Steven Faulkner's most recent message, about how AT software is supposed to reliably determine the difference between a purely decorative image and critical content
  374. # [14:48] <MikeSmith> maybe one possible answer is that AT software needs to be made a lot smarter
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  376. # [14:49] <MikeSmith> to be able to programatically make some kind of determination
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  379. # [14:50] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: running a DCT / Fourier Transform on the image and checking for spikes should be a fairly implementable way of telling if an image is photo-like or iconic
  380. # [14:50] <MikeSmith> yeah, I can think of quite a lot of other ways also
  381. # [14:51] <MikeSmith> their is plenty of existing work been done in that area for all kinds of use cases
  382. # [14:51] <MikeSmith> s/their/there/
  383. # [14:51] <annevk> The main flaw in his argument is that you'll have that problem no matter what.
  384. # [14:52] <jmb> there was a mildly interesting poster at the ASSETS conference last year which was about using some kind of statistical pattern recognition to guess the content of images and generate vaguely sane alt text from it
  385. # [14:54] <MikeSmith> hmm, I see that Steven does also say, "Given that these two images could be the same..." but used for different purposes in the same content.
  386. # [14:54] <MikeSmith> same exact image, used in one part for decorative purpose, in another part as "critical content"
  387. # [14:54] <MikeSmith> that seems like a bit of stretch
  388. # [14:55] <MikeSmith> would wonder if there are in fact in actual examples of an image used in such a way
  389. # [14:55] <MikeSmith> but I guess he intends that part to deflect the argument about doing pattern recognition or such on the image
  390. # [14:56] <jmb> well, requiring tools to do alt="" when there's no available alternative content won't help that case, either
  391. # [14:57] <MikeSmith> nope
  392. # [14:58] <MikeSmith> and the answer anyways is that the AT software could do some analysis of the placement of the images in the content, their relationship to surrounding content
  393. # [14:58] <MikeSmith> I guess
  394. # [14:59] <MikeSmith> this somewhat reminds me of the guidelines for authoring content intended for viewing on mobile devices
  395. # [15:00] <MikeSmith> guidelines that suggest that authors do all kinds of extra work to make their content usable in that context
  396. # [15:00] <MikeSmith> when the better solution is to just make the mobile browsers smarter
  397. # [15:01] <jmb> tbh, I can't foresee that any amount of MUST in the spec will actually compel authors to do anything
  398. # [15:01] <MikeSmith> jmb, they know that, actually
  399. # [15:02] <jmb> ok
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  403. # [15:06] <MikeSmith> I think a big part of this is just a desire to keep the rule as simple and easy to evaluate as possible
  404. # [15:07] <MikeSmith> so it can be put into a checkbox
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  407. # [15:08] <Lachy> one of the problems with the alt text thread seems to be that no-one has clearly defined what they would be best for assistive technology to output in the various cases of missing alt text, and so the proposed solutions can't really evaluated
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  409. # [15:10] <MikeSmith> Lachy, seems like what could possibly be best for that AT software to output is the results of it doing some kind of image analysis like what jmb and hsivonen
  410. # [15:11] <MikeSmith> so if that image analysis determines it's decorative content, it outputs nothing
  411. # [15:11] <Lachy> e.g. it's been stated that we should distinguish between decorative images, and non-decorative images without alt text
  412. # [15:11] <Lachy> but no-one has clearly stated how the user should be informed of that distinction
  413. # [15:14] <Lachy> outputting nothing for decorative images is ok. But what to output for non-decorative images without alt text is entirely unclear, and so any suggestion to do anything other than just omit the alt attribute isn't based on the desire to acheive a specific result
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  416. # [15:15] <Lachy> just a desire to use validation as a feeble attempt force authors to think about putting alt text in
  417. # [15:16] <jmb> it's tricky, as any image categoriser is likely to generate false positives, which may be harmful. then again, outputting something may be better than outputting nothing at all. it's at this point that I'd be wanting to conduct a user study :)
  418. # [15:16] <Lachy> jmb, indeed. But what exactly is that "something"?
  419. # [15:16] <Philip`> Why is it a feeble attempt? alt is used far more than all the other optional accessibility features
  420. # [15:17] <jmb> Lachy: let me see if I can dig out the reference for that poster I saw. it may give some indication as to what's being done atm (admittedly in research labs rather than the real world ;)
  421. # [15:17] <Lachy> Philip`, alt has been required in HTML4 for years, but that in itself has only been mildly successful in encouraging average authors to use alt text.
  422. # [15:19] <Philip`> Lachy: It's used on about 50% of images, and at least once on about 80% of pages, which sounds pretty successful
  423. # [15:20] <jmb> Lachy: see http://pubs.iupr.org/DATA/2007-IUPR-25Jul_1615.pdf
  424. # [15:20] <Lachy> Those stats don't tell you anything about how often it gets used for anything useful/accurate, or unuseful/inaccurate
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  426. # [15:23] <annevk> jmb, the only problem with that is that they're suggesting to solve it on the wrong side, imo
  427. # [15:23] <jmb> annevk: sure
  428. # [15:23] <jmb> annevk: I'd agree with that
  429. # [15:23] <annevk> jmb, better to solve it with 5 vendors than billions of Web sites
  430. # [15:24] <jmb> mm
  431. # [15:25] <annevk> looks pretty cool btw
  432. # [15:26] <Lachy> why did the photo that looks like soccer players got tagged with "horses"? :-)
  433. # [15:27] <jmb> Lachy: false positive :)
  434. # [15:27] <hsivonen> (it quite annoys me that everyone else is supposed to jump because Freedom Scientific doesn't fix their software)
  435. # [15:29] <Lachy> jmb, does the analysis take the surrounding content into account when determining appropriate tags? e.g. If the surrounding content of that soccer image was talking about a soccer game, would that reduce the change of it being inccorectly labelled as "horses"?
  436. # [15:29] <jmb> Lachy: I've no idea, tbh
  437. # [15:30] <jmb> Lachy: it's not my field, so I didn't talk too much to the authors
  438. # [15:30] <Lachy> it's also interesting that it tags in english only, when the pictures show some foreign language text around the images
  439. # [15:31] <annevk> thinking about it more, those images illustrated are the ones I'd expect to not have alt text
  440. # [15:31] <annevk> they're just illustrating the text
  441. # [15:31] <annevk> (as in, I'd expect <img src=... alt>
  442. # [15:31] <annevk> )
  443. # [15:31] <MikeSmith> hsivonen, agree completely about Freedom Scientific
  444. # [15:33] <MikeSmith> seems like kind of a "conspicuously always absent from the party" case
  445. # [15:33] <MikeSmith> were they to actually show up and participate in discussions in public forums, I guess they realize that all manner of hell would likely rain down upon them
  446. # [15:34] <MikeSmith> so better to stay away
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  448. # [15:38] <Lachy> I don't think they'd get hell raining down upon them any more than the IE team does.
  449. # [15:38] <Lachy> although, the IE team has had its fair share of abuse
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  457. # [15:51] <Lachy> Hixie, from the spec: "A single image can have different appropriate alt text depending on the content." - Should that say "...depending on the context."?
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  460. # [16:12] * gsnedders starts work on RSS5
  461. # [16:14] <hsivonen> gsnedders: bad idea. rathole warning!
  462. # [16:14] <gsnedders> hsivonen: It's probably worth defining how to parse, though.
  463. # [16:15] <gsnedders> As either RSS 2.0 is vague or useless in the real world.
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  473. # [16:57] <takkaria> gsnedders: in practice, copying what the universal feed parser does will work
  474. # [16:58] <gsnedders> takkaria: that's possible to break. it's computationally impossible to parse RSS all the time per the author's intent (unless it becomes computationally possible to read the author's brain)
  475. # [16:59] <takkaria> yes, but in practice, the UFP works for pretty much everything :)
  476. # [16:59] <gsnedders> that's true :)
  477. # [17:00] <takkaria> and it has a massive testsuite, too
  478. # [17:00] <gsnedders> takkaria: I'm not going to get into efi
  479. # [17:00] <gsnedders> *defining…
  480. # [17:00] <gsnedders> … how to parse malformed XML
  481. # [17:01] <gsnedders> and the test suite is basically the same tests twice, just with one lot with a broken closing tag for the root element :P
  482. # [17:03] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  483. # [17:08] <gsnedders> hmmm… It appears that XML conformance isn't a requirement for XHTML5
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  486. # [17:15] * hsivonen needs a design pattern for not losing the original exception when a 'finally' block throws a new one
  487. # [17:15] <hsivonen> creating a MultiException seems ugly
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  503. # [18:32] <Hixie> Lachy: the entities table is already multicolumn, if there's some more incantations i can give, let me know
  504. # [18:35] <Hixie> hsivonen: data/002 is absolutely non-conforming, yes, but a combination of (future?) html5 error handling rules and uri error handling rules (possibly as yet unspecified and relying on legacy convention) requires that behaviour
  505. # [18:36] <Hixie> MikeSmith: there are examples of images used in different ways with radically different alt text in the spec already
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  510. # [18:49] <heyadayo> Is there a page that lists/links to all of the previous versions of the html5 spec?
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  512. # [18:51] <Hixie> how do you mean, previous version?
  513. # [18:57] <heyadayo> I'm trying to find a specification of Opera's SSE and see how it differs from the latest html5 SSE specification
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  522. # [20:19] <Philip`> heyadayo: http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker lists all the changes between versions, and http://svn.whatwg.org/webapps/ provides a way to access any version
  523. # [20:21] <heyadayo> Philip`, much appreciated
  524. # [20:22] <Philip`> (Those links are all listed in the top of the spec)
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  526. # [20:25] <heyadayo> Philip`, to tell you the truth, I previously visited the web-apps-tracker, but was having trouble listing revisions before 1329, or searching for something specific, like "SSE"
  527. # [20:25] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  528. # [20:25] <Philip`> Oh, maybe it doesn't provide any way of seeing older messages...
  529. # [20:27] <Philip`> r1237 seems to have been the most recent significant changes
  530. # [20:29] <Philip`> heyadayo: http://philip.html5.org/misc/whatwg-svn-log.txt lists all the past revisions
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  532. # [20:31] <heyadayo> Philip`, thanks
  533. # [20:33] <heyadayo> annevk, I'm browsing previous versions of the spec, but I'm having some difficulty finding docs related to opera's current SSE implementation. Whenever you get a chance, could you point me in the right direction?
  534. # [20:39] <Philip`> heyadayo: The most reliable information will come from just testing it and seeing what happens, since the documentation of the actual implementation isn't necessarily great (if it even exists)
  535. # [20:40] <heyadayo> we've got a working version of the opera SSE format in the orbited webserver, but we have an annoying decision to make
  536. # [20:41] <heyadayo> that is, we are implementing an SSE client for firefox and safari by doing raw parsing on an XHR object, and we were trying to decide if we should implement the html5 version of the spec, or the opera version
  537. # [20:41] <heyadayo> because ideally the server wouldn't only need to encode server sent events in a single manner
  538. # [20:41] <heyadayo> s/wouldn't/would
  539. # [20:43] <Philip`> I would assume Opera will change to match the HTML5 spec in the future (maybe in whatever comes after 9.5), and if any other browser implements it then they'll implement what the spec says, so it seems more useful in the long term to follow the spec
  540. # [20:44] <Philip`> (and to use the XHR emulation of SSE for Opera too)
  541. # [20:44] <heyadayo> yeah, thats what i was thinking, but i don't think its possible in opera to use XHR emulation because it doesn't give you partial access to the responseText
  542. # [20:45] <Philip`> There aren't enough Opera users for it to seem particularly worthwhile to write and maintain code for it that will never be useful in other browsers, if there is a single cross-browser alternative that could be used instead
  543. # [20:45] <Philip`> I'm not quite sure what you mean by "partial access"
  544. # [20:46] <heyadayo> i mean, if the response hasn't yet finished, you can still get the text from the partially completed response in safari or firefox, but as far as I can tell, you can't do that in opera
  545. # [20:48] <Philip`> Ah, right
  546. # [20:48] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  547. # [20:48] <Philip`> Sounds like a bug in Opera if that's the case
  548. # [20:49] <heyadayo> bug or no, i was hoping to wrangle a way of using the same wire protocol for server->browser events in all browsers
  549. # [20:50] <heyadayo> maybe for the time being i should just implement the standard for the other browsers, and have a special case for opera
  550. # [20:51] <Philip`> Hmm, it looks like Opera might be updating responseText but just not doing the readystatechange event as data is received
  551. # [20:52] <Philip`> (and so polling with setInterval could make it work)
  552. # [20:52] <heyadayo> i did a cursory test the other day, and i thought that it was waiting to trigger the readystate changes until after the response was complete, but also blocking access to responseText
  553. # [20:52] <heyadayo> yeah, exactly
  554. # [20:53] <heyadayo> we have to do polling with setInterval in IE on a hidden iframe (inside of an ActiveXObject('htmlfile') to get it working (without loading bars) in IE5+
  555. # [20:53] <heyadayo> it wouldn't be the end of the word to use local polling in opera as well
  556. # [20:53] <heyadayo> s/word/world
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  565. # [22:12] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/38482/XDRorNot/results is funny
  566. # [22:12] <BenMillard> it won't let me see that
  567. # [22:12] <Philip`_> "Not allowed" :-(
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  569. # [22:12] * Philip`_ is now known as Philip`
  570. # [22:22] <Hixie> why are these people so anti-accessibility
  571. # [22:22] <Hixie> sheesh
  572. # [22:22] <BenMillard> which people?
  573. # [22:23] <Hixie> those who want page-critical images for which no alt text has been provided to be indistinguishable from text
  574. # [22:24] <Lachy> Hixie, I didn't realise -moz-column-* had a bug that prevented it working for tables, so I assumed you hadn't used it. It seems that only Safari renders the multicolumn entity table :-(
  575. # [22:24] <Hixie> Lachy: :-(
  576. # [22:27] <Lachy> The only way I can think of to address the issue now would be to manually split the table into 3 and use other css techniques to get the appearance of 3 cols. But that's an ugly hack I don't really like
  577. # [22:27] <Hixie> why 3?
  578. # [22:28] <Lachy> cause that's the number of columns Safari gives me at my normal browser window width.
  579. # [22:28] <Hixie> you have a small screen
  580. # [22:28] <Lachy> like I said, it's an ugly hack
  581. # [22:28] <Lachy> no, I just don't maximise browser windows
  582. # [22:28] <Hixie> ah
  583. # [22:28] <Hixie> i have two screens
  584. # [22:28] <Lachy> I have a 1920x1280 screen
  585. # [22:29] <Hixie> how i configure my ion tabs varies, but often one of my 24" displays just has a single fullscreen browser
  586. # [22:29] <Lachy> maybe I could find some greasemonkey script solution
  587. # [22:29] <Hixie> with my terminals on the other screen
  588. # [22:29] <Hixie> of course other times i look at the spec on my ipod
  589. # [22:29] <Hixie> so...
  590. # [22:30] <Lachy> yeah, I know. You showed me a screenshot of it once
  591. # [22:30] <Philip`> Don't use a table, just write a list of "'AElig;'&nbsp;=&nbsp;U+000C6; 'AElig'&nbsp;=&nbsp;U+000C6; ..." and let the browser's text-wrapping do its stuff
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  594. # [23:11] <Hixie> so...
  595. # [23:11] <Hixie> <q>
  596. # [23:11] <Hixie> do we have a good solution for this train wreck?
  597. # [23:12] <gsnedders> Use cars instead while the tracks are blocked?
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  599. # [23:20] <andersca> hey Hixie
  600. # [23:22] <Hixie> hi
  601. # [23:22] <andersca> about the "If the resource being loaded was not loaded from an application cache, but it was loaded using HTTP GET or equivalent" part of the cache selection algorithm
  602. # [23:23] <andersca> , step 2
  603. # [23:24] <andersca> should the update process be invoked after the implicit resource has been fetched?
  604. # [23:26] <Hixie> i can't see any reason to require that that be a synchronous set of steps, no
  605. # [23:26] <Hixie> i would say it is ok to run all those steps in parallel
  606. # [23:26] <Hixie> but the spec does sort of imply it should be synchronous, so if you want it changed please to drop me a mail reminding me :-)
  607. # [23:29] <andersca> Hixie: although it would make more sense to do the update process after it's been fetched
  608. # [23:29] <andersca> Hixie: ...I think :)
  609. # [23:30] <Hixie> well, as noted the other day, the update process will be fixed to mention that any pending "fetchings", for lack of a better word, have to complete before any "cached" events fire
  610. # [23:30] <andersca> although in the case of step 2 the cache will already be up to date, right?
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  612. # [23:36] <Hixie> step 2 invokes the updating process
  613. # [23:36] <Hixie> i don't understand what ou mean
  614. # [23:36] <Hixie> oh!
  615. # [23:36] <Hixie> i see what you're saying
  616. # [23:36] <Hixie> hm
  617. # [23:36] <Hixie> well
  618. # [23:36] <Hixie> there's no way to tell the difference, is there?
  619. # [23:37] <Hixie> i mean, between whether it's sync or async
  620. # [23:38] <andersca> I don't think so - you just need to try to avoid fetching the resource twice
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  625. # [23:45] <Hixie> andersca: right
  626. # [23:45] <Hixie> andersca: in which case, it doesn't matter what the spec says really
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  629. # [23:58] <jgraham> gsnedders: Isn't that what most people do already (avoid using <q>)?
  630. # [23:58] <gsnedders> jgraham: peh.
  631. # Session Close: Sat Apr 12 00:00:00 2008

The end :)