/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-04-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Apr 12 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-6e7f99ef80a517b6)
  4. # [00:01] <BenMillard> hixie, stopping <q> from generating punctuation seems the most useful thing to do whilst being consistent with other HTML elements. authors are used to punctuating the content themselves (full stops at the end of <p> for example)
  5. # [00:03] <jgraham> Hey, if only we had a <possessive> element and a <contraction> element people could just write <possessive>its</possessive> and <contraction>its</contraction> and they would always get the apostrophe right!
  6. # [00:04] <Hixie> requiring punctuation seems fine by me
  7. # [00:04] <Hixie> should it be before or after <q>?
  8. # [00:04] <jgraham> (seriously, is there a good argument for making <q> generate punctuation?)
  9. # [00:05] <jgraham> Hixie: I would say inside but I doubt authors will get it right much either way
  10. # [00:05] <BenMillard> hixie, I'd say allow both. would it make a difference?
  11. # [00:05] <jgraham> (where much is "a significant enough percentage of the time that you could base a UA feature on it")
  12. # [00:06] <Hixie> well the one feature that would make sense is a set of pseudos in css to select the punctuation and replace it and/or hide it
  13. # [00:06] <annevk> Hixie, punctation should be inside <q>
  14. # [00:06] <Hixie> i'm thinking punctuation outside, personally
  15. # [00:06] <Hixie> why inside?
  16. # [00:06] <billmason> I recall once seeing an author suggest putting quotes outside the q, and using CSS to stop q from rendering its own quotes, all because the HTML4 spec says not to put quotes at the beginning/end of the q content. So they put it outside the content.
  17. # [00:06] <annevk> Hixie, compatible with ::before
  18. # [00:06] <Hixie> i mean, they're not part of the quote...
  19. # [00:06] <billmason> (fwiw....very convulted)
  20. # [00:06] <Hixie> annevk: ?
  21. # [00:07] <Hixie> billmason: hehe
  22. # [00:07] <annevk> oh, I wait, I'll guess I stay out of this debate
  23. # [00:07] <annevk> I'm using <q> all over the place so I rather not have it change...
  24. # [00:08] <BenMillard> hixie, strictly speaking the quote marks aren't part of the quoted text. unless you are quoting the use of punctuation from a different document or something
  25. # [00:08] <Hixie> annevk: hah
  26. # [00:08] <Hixie> BenMillard: right, that's why i figured outside
  27. # [00:08] <jgraham> Hixie: Just because it seems more natural to package up the whole bit of text that is the quotation inside a <q> rather than having the quotation marks clinging on to the outside like drowning swimmers
  28. # [00:09] <BenMillard> jgraham, exactly. authors might view <q> as meaning "a quotation" with punctuation and everything rather than "a strict wrapper for quoted text"
  29. # [00:10] <BenMillard> also, languages vary in where their punctuation goes with quotes
  30. # [00:10] <jgraham> (fwiw I think the quoting something with quotation marks case is distinguised by using two typographically different sets of quotation marks)
  31. # [00:11] <jgraham> BenMillard: Is that a problem
  32. # [00:11] <jgraham> ?
  33. # [00:11] <gsnedders> I'd rather not have it change, for the same reason as annevk fwiw
  34. # [00:11] <Hixie> i guess the only time this would matter is if you're trying to move the quote
  35. # [00:11] <Hixie> e.g. float it
  36. # [00:11] <Hixie> and in this case, you really want the quotes to go with it
  37. # [00:11] <Hixie> so inside makes sense
  38. # [00:12] <BenMillard> hixie, also affects what gets italicised/bolded if you do that
  39. # [00:12] <Hixie> true, true
  40. # [00:12] <Hixie> and you'd typically want the quotes italicised/bolded
  41. # [00:12] <Hixie> gsnedders, annevk: the quote marks wouldn't be _required_
  42. # [00:12] <BenMillard> if I'm using curly quotes I'd tend to avoid italicising them; they are already curly
  43. # [00:13] <Hixie> gsnedders, annevk: just not inserted by UAs automatically
  44. # [00:13] <gsnedders> Hixie: so myself and annevk have to use before/after selectors to keep compat. with our content?
  45. # [00:13] <jgraham> BenMillard: Arguably a font issue?
  46. # [00:13] * jgraham doesn't really know
  47. # [00:14] <gsnedders> jgraham: arguably the font system shouldn't italicise certain codepoints, such as curly quotes
  48. # [00:14] <gsnedders> jgraham: (when not using a given italic typeface and making its own up)
  49. # [00:15] <BenMillard> how authors currently do inline runs of quoted text are something I hope to study
  50. # [00:15] * gsnedders uses the q element, but he doesn't quote much
  51. # [00:15] <Hixie> gsnedders, annevk: yeah
  52. # [00:15] <Hixie> gsnedders, annevk: assuming you like quotation marks
  53. # [00:16] <gsnedders> Hixie: quotation marks _rule_.
  54. # [00:16] <annevk> wow, cssom-view caused browser incompatibilities
  55. # [00:16] <annevk> what nonsense
  56. # [00:16] <jgraham> gsnedders: Not quotation marks "rule", then? ;)
  57. # [00:16] <gsnedders> jgraham: nope.
  58. # [00:17] * gsnedders should probably sleep, but he's waiting for molly to finish doing what she's currently working on to talk to her :P
  59. # [00:17] <jgraham> (I assume you saw the do not use quotation marks for emphasis picture)
  60. # [00:17] <gsnedders> no
  61. # [00:18] <gsnedders> I'm blind :P
  62. # [00:18] <heyadayo> i have a couple questions about the section 6 TCPConnection object. First off, is there any provision for sending the tcp data through an http proxy (Such as sending a HTTP CONNECT to the proxy before the "HELLO") ?
  63. # [00:18] <gsnedders> jgraham: link?
  64. # [00:19] <BenMillard> gsnedders, hixie, jgraham: http://www.mozilla.org/projects/rt-messaging/chatzilla/user-guide.html - curly opening speechmark faked with 2 grave accents with straight speechmark after the quoted text: ``ChatZilla!''
  65. # [00:19] <jgraham> http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:fu5l-quqTlEJ:www.photobasement.com/please-do-not-use-quotation-marks-for-emphasis/+do+not+use+quotation+marks+for+emphasis&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2
  66. # [00:19] <gsnedders> BenMillard: LaTeX comes up again.
  67. # [00:19] <jgraham> yay for google keeping the web going when the actual servers are dead
  68. # [00:20] <Hixie> heyadayo: no
  69. # [00:20] <Hixie> heyadayo: (at least not at the moment; if you think that's a feature we should add, please do mail the list with details)
  70. # [00:20] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  71. # [00:21] <gsnedders> three cheers for Google!
  72. # [00:21] <heyadayo> Hixie, okay, i will send an email. Also, whats the intended value of the "Hello" and "Welcome" exchange?
  73. # [00:22] <Hixie> heyadayo: to prevent, e.g., someone connecting to an SMTP server
  74. # [00:22] <Hixie> heyadayo: or a Telnet server
  75. # [00:22] <Hixie> heyadayo: or any server that isn't expecting Web pages to randomly connect to it
  76. # [00:22] <annevk> heyadayo, http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-html5-20080122/#parsing1 is the format Opera implements, though as Philip` said there may be bugs
  77. # [00:23] <heyadayo> Hixie, why is enforcing the distinction between a web client and a regular client imporant?
  78. # [00:23] <heyadayo> annevk, thank you
  79. # [00:23] <BenMillard> gsnedders, another quotes example: http://www.stuffandnonsense.co.uk/malarkey/more/microformats_the_fine_art_of_markup/ uses straight apostrophes in content like ' but has curly quotes generated by <q>How to use help</q> in a footer link
  80. # [00:24] <Hixie> heyadayo: to prevent, e.g., people putting scripts in random web pages that find a local SMTP server and start sending spam
  81. # [00:24] <Hixie> heyadayo: or that communicate to a random HTTP server behind a firewall by "proxying" through the browser of someone browsing the web
  82. # [00:26] <heyadayo> Hixie, ah, right
  83. # [00:26] <BenMillard> gsnedders, http://inspire.server101.com/ben/2008/03/public-transport-dystopia.html has unpunctuated quoted text using <em> which includes the terminal . before the </em>
  84. # [00:27] <gsnedders> BenMillard: i.e., just italicising the quote?
  85. # [00:27] <gsnedders> BenMillard: (punctuation is language specific with regards to quote, en-us and en-gb are different, fwiw)
  86. # [00:27] <heyadayo> annevk, so it looks like opera's original foray into SSE has been much expanded in the 9.5 version?
  87. # [00:28] * Quits: qwert666 (n=qwert666@acar81.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) ("Leaving")
  88. # [00:28] <BenMillard> gsnedders, I mentioned that earlier to support allowing both positions for punctuation...didn't realise en-AU followed en-US rather than en-GB though
  89. # [00:30] <jgraham> How does en-US quoting work?
  90. # [00:30] * jgraham never noticed a difference
  91. # [00:31] <gsnedders> "This is an en-us quote."
  92. # [00:31] <gsnedders> "This is an en-gb quote".
  93. # [00:31] <BenMillard> jgraham, you just used the word "quoting." This was a demo of en-US quoting
  94. # [00:31] <BenMillard> jgraham, you just used the word "quoting". This was a demo of en-GB quoting
  95. # [00:32] <jgraham> wow it's odd that I didn't notice that. It seems kinda illogical :)
  96. # [00:32] <gsnedders> And then you get into odd things like when she asked, "What if?".
  97. # [00:32] <gsnedders> I have no idea what that is in en-us
  98. # [00:32] <BenMillard> en-US drops the outer .
  99. # [00:32] <BenMillard> I've seen British style guides allow that for those types of case
  100. # [00:33] <gsnedders> en-gb-x-sneddy includes it, FWIW
  101. # [00:33] <annevk> hendry, we still don't support custom event classes and such...
  102. # [00:33] <annevk> heyadayo, ^^
  103. # [00:33] <Philip`> I've always been taught that punctuation goes inside the quotes (even if it's not a part of the quoted text), but I've always ignored that rule since it's stupid and wrong
  104. # [00:33] * gsnedders keeps the quotation verbatim inside the quotes
  105. # [00:34] <gsnedders> your quoting it, you don't change it!
  106. # [00:34] <Philip`> since it only makes sense to put the literal quoted text inside the quotation marks
  107. # [00:34] <gsnedders> If I change it at all, it is with square brackets after what I'm changing
  108. # [00:34] <BenMillard> Philip` and gsnedders, I think the differences of style around this are historical so it makes sense to allow both. :)
  109. # [00:34] <gsnedders> "He [Bob] asked me what to do.".
  110. # [00:34] <gsnedders> BenMillard: certainly :)
  111. # [00:34] * gsnedders heads off to sleep
  112. # [00:34] <jgraham> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Quotation_marks
  113. # [00:35] <jgraham> says it's npt gb/us
  114. # [00:35] <jgraham> not*
  115. # [00:35] * gsnedders shrugs
  116. # [00:35] * gsnedders falls alssep
  117. # [00:36] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host217-44-37-113.range217-44.btcentralplus.com) ("Partying in teh intarwebs")
  118. # [00:37] <Philip`> Punctuating non-inline LaTeX equations is what always causes me problems
  119. # [00:37] <jgraham> I get that wrong. Every. Single. Fucking. Time.
  120. # [00:38] <Philip`> "Clearly $$1+1=2$$." is stupid because the . would be dangling on the next line, but "Clearly $$1+1=2.$$" is stupid because it looks like the . is part of the equation when it isn't
  121. # [00:39] <jgraham> You would have thought I would learn after the first few, but my brain is incapable of dealing with the idea that the , just has to be put inside the equation despite having nothing to do with the equation.
  122. # [00:39] <jgraham> I also always get whitespace around equations wrong
  123. # [00:40] <heyadayo> annevk, so do you think opera will scale back its implementation in the future and drop the additional features of the old spec?
  124. # [00:42] <Philip`> From my experience of the one time when I've had to submit a paper, overfull hboxes are the most irritating problem, particularly because you can only fix them after you've finished all the text, which means it is very near the deadline and so you are tired and fed up and under pressure and it's no fun trying to fix everything
  125. # [00:42] <annevk> heyadayo, I'm not sure if we'd immediately drop support for the old format (they can be supported together)
  126. # [00:44] <heyadayo> annevk, so i suppose you'd differentiate by the two different headers (application/x-dom-event-stream (old) vs. text/event-stream (new))
  127. # [00:44] <BenMillard> jgraham, perhaps the nationality of the difference is a myth. either way, the difference exists
  128. # [00:45] <jgraham> BenMillard: I don't dispute that it exists :)
  129. # [00:45] <BenMillard> jgraham, ah, ok then
  130. # [00:46] <annevk> heyadayo, yes, going forward we might do that, for now we only support application/x-dom-event-stream
  131. # [00:46] <BenMillard> jgraham, interestingly a later section says "the quotation marks should not be in boldface" which means they consider styling of quotes to determine their position (as I suspected any author would)
  132. # [00:46] <heyadayo> annevk, ok
  133. # [00:46] <heyadayo> annevk, i think for now we're going to implement the new SSE standard with xhr streaming for opera
  134. # [00:46] <annevk> wfm :)
  135. # [00:46] <jgraham> Philip`: That's never been a problem I've had. Often LaTeX will complain about overfull hboxes (often with badness 10,000) but I don't recall seeing an actual problem that could be ascribed to them.
  136. # [00:46] <annevk> http://intertwingly.net/blog/2008/04/11/SVG-and-MathML-Annexes-to-HTML5
  137. # [00:47] <Philip`> jgraham: Hmm, have you written two-column documents?
  138. # [00:48] <Philip`> Two columns plus large margins plus indented bold text plus slightly long words tends to run out of space and look very ugly :-(
  139. # [00:48] <jgraham> Philip`: Yeah, but maybe it depends on the style file?
  140. # [00:48] <Hixie> holy crap, sam's now said two cautiously positive things about the math+svg stuff
  141. # [00:48] * jgraham tries to avoid doing anything complex in LaTeX
  142. # [00:48] <Hixie> i overshot my goals!
  143. # [00:48] <Hixie> excellent
  144. # [00:48] <jmb> Hixie: you must be doing something right, then :)
  145. # [00:49] <jgraham> Because whilst LaTeX is nice for maths it is really really hard to lay out a page in
  146. # [00:49] <jmb> jgraham: I just leave it to it, tbh. then again, I've written sufficiently few documents where the layout has to be exact that it's never been a problem for me
  147. # [00:50] <jgraham> jmb: There's a wonderful quote on our office whiteboard "Doing a poster in LaTeX is like trying to do a poster in C"
  148. # [00:50] <jmb> jgraham: I approve :)
  149. # [00:51] <Hixie> there's something ironic about the fact that " and ' fall into Po and not Pi or Pf or somesuch
  150. # [00:51] <jmb> jgraham: I should thank you for your mailing list post(s) about alt. they're far more coherent than I could hope to be
  151. # [00:51] <jgraham> (!)
  152. # [00:52] <Hixie> dude
  153. # [00:52] <Hixie> awesome
  154. # [00:52] <Hixie> unicode has a separate way of categorising things as Quotation_Mark
  155. # [00:52] <Hixie> sweet!
  156. # [00:52] <BenMillard> hixie, quotes again: http://www.w3.org/QA/2008/01/open_data_you_and_me.html has one space inside of each speechmark, with terminal punctuation on the inside attached to the final word. no markup around this at any point
  157. # [00:53] <Hixie> yeah if there's no markup then it's no big deal
  158. # [00:53] <Hixie> i don't think we should require quotations to be marked up
  159. # [00:53] <Hixie> just like we don't require it of titles of work, etc
  160. # [00:54] <BenMillard> interestingly, the speechmarks are « and » but these are in content inheriting lang="en"
  161. # [00:55] <BenMillard> so after about 3 pages it looks like authors care more about how their punctuation looks than how it is marked up
  162. # [00:55] <Hixie> that's almost certainly the case, yes
  163. # [00:56] <BenMillard> kind of a no-brainer, really :P
  164. # [00:56] <Hixie> :-)
  165. # [00:56] <BenMillard> I'm off to bed, bye all.
  166. # [00:56] <Hixie> nn
  167. # [00:57] * Parts: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  168. # [00:57] <Hixie> hey
  169. # [00:57] <Hixie> interesting
  170. # [00:57] <Hixie> maybe i should be talking about White_Space not Sz
  171. # [00:57] <Hixie> Zs even
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  175. # [01:16] <annevk> awesomeness, thanks Øistein Unicode people are looking into defining what I want
  176. # [01:17] <annevk> thanks to*
  177. # [01:17] <jmb> that is, indeed, cool
  178. # [01:17] <Hixie> yeah, mark is one of my colleagues here at google
  179. # [01:18] <Hixie> he's good people
  180. # [01:18] <annevk> heh
  181. # [01:18] <annevk> small world et all
  182. # [01:20] <Hixie> did the htmlwg ever reply to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2004Aug/0011.html ?
  183. # [01:20] * Hixie looks at xhtml2 to see what solution they came up with for quotes
  184. # [01:20] <annevk> they have <quote>
  185. # [01:21] <annevk> that doesn't have quotes
  186. # [01:21] <Hixie> actually looks like they went back to having <q>
  187. # [01:21] * Hixie looks up its definition
  188. # [01:21] <annevk> interesting
  189. # [01:21] <Hixie> ...but the definition still has all the problems bjoern listed
  190. # [01:21] <Hixie> lovely
  191. # [01:22] <Hixie> ok so that's a waste of time...
  192. # [01:22] * Quits: billmason (n=billmaso@ip200.unival.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  193. # [01:23] <annevk> btw, your suggestion about using some advanced form of generated content sounds like over engineering to me as <q> is not that much used anyway
  194. # [01:31] * Quits: csarven (i=csarven@on-irc.csarven.ca) ("http://www.csarven.ca")
  195. # [01:36] <Hixie> wow, <q> is used more than <dfn> and <del> and <ins>
  196. # [01:36] <Hixie> not as often as <ilayer>, <bgsound>, and <blink>, but...
  197. # [01:37] <Philip`> From 8K pages I saw 2 q, 8 dfn, 3 del, 2 ins
  198. # [01:37] <Philip`> which isn't really enough to detect a significant difference
  199. # [01:38] <Hixie> you see four times more pages that use <dfn> than <q> and you don't think it's enough to detect a difference?
  200. # [01:38] <Philip`> I see six more pages that use the dfn than q, and I don't think that's significant :-)
  201. # [01:38] <Hixie> oh i guess root-8k is ~90
  202. # [01:38] <jmb> that rather depends on how well your sample set maps to the global set :)
  203. # [01:39] <Philip`> In 130K pages, I see 59 q and 158 dfn
  204. # [01:39] <Philip`> which is a significant difference
  205. # [01:39] <Hixie> well back in 2007 i saw, out of ~3bn files, about 4.1 million <blink>, and about 3.9 million <q>, and about 3.3 million <dfn>.
  206. # [01:40] <Philip`> I see 807 blink
  207. # [01:40] <Hixie> wow so you see an order of magnitude difference where i see basically nothing
  208. # [01:40] <Hixie> not sure what that tells us
  209. # [01:40] <Hixie> but it tells us something!
  210. # [01:42] <jmb> dmoz.org likes pages that use blink? :)
  211. # [01:43] <Philip`> I have no idea if blink has the same huge cultural differences as marquee
  212. # [01:44] <Philip`> (30% of .cn sites in dmoz.org use marquee, vs 3% of all sites)
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  215. # [02:04] * Philip` finds it ironic that an email reply on unicore@unicode.org causes "Øistein" to display as "�istein"
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  224. # [03:19] <Lachy> Hixie, what is the real benefit of using <q> if quotation marks have to be provided manually?
  225. # [03:27] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
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  232. # [05:09] <Hixie> Lachy: let's you do things like pullquotes
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  255. # [10:06] <Hixie> an unbelievable number of people apparently read through that entire 3000 line e-mail
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  268. # [11:10] <annevk> Hixie, the nested quote example misses an end tag
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  270. # [11:15] <Hixie> thanks fixed
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  296. # [15:38] <gsnedders> jgraham: was it you who had implemented the outliner?
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  308. # [17:18] * jgraham wonders if gsnedders reads the logs
  309. # [17:22] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host217-44-37-113.range217-44.btcentralplus.com)
  310. # [17:24] <jgraham> gsnedders: Yes
  311. # [17:25] <gsnedders> jgraham: can I coerce my way into getting the code?
  312. # [17:26] <jgraham> I have no idea. But there's no need because you can simply download it from t' internet
  313. # [17:28] <gsnedders> jgraham: from where?
  314. # [17:28] * jgraham is just checking it is actually on the internet
  315. # [17:30] <jgraham> Hmm. Maybe it isn't on the internet yet.
  316. # [17:30] * jgraham goes to fix that
  317. # [17:30] <gsnedders> then can I coerce my way to it? :P
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  320. # [18:03] <jgraham> gsnedders: Since I'm being so slow doing this properly: http://james.html5.org/temp/outline/
  321. # [18:04] <jgraham> (the code is kinda sucky btw)
  322. # [18:04] <gsnedders> jgraham: the .py gives me 500
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  324. # [18:05] <jgraham> Can't you do Save to Disk?
  325. # [18:05] <gsnedders> jgraham: that'll just save the 500 result
  326. # [18:06] <jgraham> Hmm. That would make sense I suppose
  327. # [18:06] <gsnedders> :)
  328. # [18:08] * gsnedders can just wait for it to be done properly, FWIW, jgraham
  329. # [18:28] * Parts: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  330. # [18:51] <jgraham> gsnedders: Not done properly (I got distracted) but you should be able to download it now
  331. # [18:52] <gsnedders> yay! I can has get it!
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  352. # [22:39] <Hixie> ok, i've dealt with all the feedback from 2004...
  353. # [22:40] <gsnedders> Hixie: when do you think 2005 will be done?
  354. # [22:40] <Hixie> no idea
  355. # [22:44] * Philip` changes his system clock back four years and sends an email
  356. # [22:48] * jgraham wonders whether he should post anything to the alt thread
  357. # [22:48] * gsnedders has so far resisted
  358. # [22:48] <Philip`> Depends on whether you have something to say that hasn't been said before in the three million prior threads :-)
  359. # [22:49] <gsnedders> @alt is evil! Kill it!
  360. # [22:50] * Quits: Camaban (n=alee@85-211-226-141.dyn.gotadsl.co.uk) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  361. # [22:50] <Philip`> Get rid of <img alt> and add <link rel="alternate accessible"> to solve the accessibility use case
  362. # [22:51] <gsnedders> where <img> is the content of the <link> element
  363. # [22:52] <jgraham> Philip`: I don't know if I'm saying anything new or not anymore. Or whether it doesn't matter because no one remembers what anyone else has said anyway
  364. # [22:52] * jgraham leaves the email half written instead
  365. # [22:59] <bzed> jgraham: sorry to bother you again, but wthat's the lxml status? :)
  366. # [23:01] <jgraham> bzed: lxml should work now. There are four tests in the liberal xml parser that fail on my system and which need to be sorted out but everything else seems to be OK
  367. # [23:02] * jgraham needs to send an email about that as well
  368. # [23:02] <bzed> cool
  369. # [23:03] <bzed> are there any plans for a new (beta...alpha... whatever) release? if somehow possible I'd like to get a proper, well working release into debian
  370. # [23:04] <gsnedders> (FWIW, I should be able to do some work on html5lib if needed end of May after all my exams (apart from Computing) are over)
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  372. # [23:05] <gsnedders> (Computing doesn't count. I'll get the highest band of A anyway :P)
  373. # [23:05] <gsnedders> </arrogance>
  374. # [23:08] <jgraham> bzed: Yeah, we'll do a release sometime after the last few tests pass
  375. # [23:09] * jgraham grumbles about code.google.com being slow
  376. # [23:09] <bzed> any idea when that will be?
  377. # [23:09] <jgraham> bzed: "When it's ready" :-p (seriously, it should be very soon)
  378. # [23:10] <bzed> I'm not sure when the release managers will go on with the freeze of lenny
  379. # [23:10] <bzed> as soonb as it's frozen, it would be hard to get a big patch/new version in, so tha tshould happen before
  380. # [23:11] <jgraham> bzed: I can make a release branch for you now if it will help
  381. # [23:12] <jgraham> Then you could just pull small fixes
  382. # [23:13] <bzed> jgraham: not necessary now, but I'll ping you if that would be needed
  383. # [23:14] <bzed> jgraham: some of the release managers are working at the same company then I do, so I usually know if things will happen
  384. # [23:15] <jgraham> bzed: OK. I will get the ball rolling on the release a bit this evening
  385. # [23:15] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host217-44-37-113.range217-44.btcentralplus.com) ("Partying in teh intarwebs")
  386. # [23:16] <bzed> jgraham: thanks a lot
  387. # [23:20] <jgraham> np
  388. # [23:21] <Hixie> anyone here play brawl?
  389. # [23:22] <annevk> if you mean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Smash_Bros._Brawl not available yet...
  390. # [23:22] <Hixie> i've played with people in norway
  391. # [23:22] <Hixie> how is it not available yet?
  392. # [23:24] <annevk> hmm, maybe I missed something
  393. # [23:37] <jgraham> Gah, you're just baiting the Wii-less ;)
  394. # [23:38] <Pavlov> Hixie: it is out
  395. # [23:39] <Pavlov> oh
  396. # [23:39] <Pavlov> nm
  397. # [23:41] <Hixie> yeah, i'm trying to find peopel to play with me :-)
  398. # [23:41] <Pavlov> ah
  399. # [23:41] <Pavlov> i've been meaning to pick it up
  400. # Session Close: Sun Apr 13 00:00:00 2008

The end :)