/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-04-13 / end

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  4. # [00:35] <Lachy> I haven't seen any new, significant arguments presented in the alt attribute thread. Resonding to it would likely only result in repeating what I have already said.
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  58. # [13:55] <gsnedders> Hixie: Come on, we need a sarcasm element!
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  60. # [14:15] <Lachy> hsivonen, I think many people are going to be confused by the way you explained the issue in this mail http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Apr/0322.html
  61. # [14:16] <hsivonen> Lachy: which part is confusing?
  62. # [14:16] <Lachy> although I agree with what you said, I had to keep going back to check which group was which since you only referred to them by number
  63. # [14:17] <hsivonen> Lachy: good point.
  64. # [14:18] <hsivonen> Lachy: my intent was to make it less personal by referring to the html4all folks less by name
  65. # [14:20] <Lachy> also, at first, I didn't quite get your analogy of pushing pixels and strings around, until I realised that by pixels, you meant images, and by strings, you meant "strings of alt text" (rather than physical pieces of strings for tying things together)
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  73. # [15:18] <MikeSmith> hsivonen, I read your reply and understand and agree with every you wrote. But I think Lachy is right that you can anticipate some people are going to be confused by it.
  74. # [15:21] <webben> hsivonen: I thought the email wasn't especially confusing FWIW. Though I don't really buy the notion that "The simplest definition for such
  75. # [15:21] <webben> signaling is the omission of the alt attribute." or the general premise that alternative text must be ideal or that sites like Flickr are better off with no alt than a less than full alternative.
  76. # [15:21] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I guess at this point I'll just have to respond to confusion when it arises on the list
  77. # [15:21] <hsivonen> webben: what signaling would be simpler?
  78. # [15:22] <MikeSmith> hsivonen, yeah
  79. # [15:23] <hsivonen> webben: I'm not shooting for ideal alt text
  80. # [15:23] <webben> hsivonen: The @noalt idea is simpler in the sense that it differentiates between "Oops, I forgot an alt." and "I am creating a CMS and I believe forcing UAs to make up alternative text is more effective than making some up for them."
  81. # [15:23] <hsivonen> webben: you have a backwards definition for "simple"
  82. # [15:23] <MikeSmith> I do have to say that there are some people involved in the discussion who are already seem deeply confused or self delusional, so little hope there regardless.
  83. # [15:24] <webben> hsivonen: Or rather, omitting alt simply isn't a signal of what you say it is.
  84. # [15:24] <MikeSmith> There are some who I personally wish nobody would take the time to respond to.
  85. # [15:24] <webben> and HTML5 can't really redefine it as a signal of that.
  86. # [15:26] <hsivonen> webben: do ATs need to differentiate between alt unavailable because intermediate programmer forgot and alt unavailable because the user didn't provide it?
  87. # [15:26] <hsivonen> webben: omitting alt signals that alternative text is not available
  88. # [15:27] <webben> I don't think that's quite the same as "the CMS signal to the UA that it doesn't have alternative text". ... it's just not providing alternative text.
  89. # [15:29] <hsivonen> webben: well, yeah, but the fact the AT needs to deal with is that it didn't get alternative text
  90. # [15:30] <webben> hsivonen: That's true (I suspect). But there are parts of your argument where you're talking about the problems of writing a validator. The information is useful to a validator (and people trying to validate output).
  91. # [15:30] <hsivonen> webben: yeah, noalt is effectively a validator pragma. I'm not ready to agree that it is a useful one on the whole.
  92. # [15:31] <webben> that is, if I'm writing one of these CMSes, I can signal accurately that the omission of alt text reflects that I don't have any user-provided alt text and I think the UA's effort will be better than mine.
  93. # [15:31] <webben> hsivonen: Do you mean not a useful one beyond validators?
  94. # [15:32] <webben> Or that it's not useful to validators?
  95. # [15:32] <hsivonen> webben: not useful to validators
  96. # [15:32] <webben> Ah.
  97. # [15:32] <webben> hsivonen: Whatever the reasoning is for that, it doesn't seem to be expressed in that email.
  98. # [15:33] <hsivonen> webben: it isn't
  99. # [15:33] <hsivonen> webben: the reasoning is that authors shouldn't have to pollute their documents with validation pragmas
  100. # [15:33] <webben> Why not?
  101. # [15:33] <hsivonen> webben: so whenever the validator is annoying enough that you want a pragma to make it shut up, that's a bug
  102. # [15:34] <hsivonen> webben: so far I've been dealing with those situations by making them one-time warnings
  103. # [15:34] <webben> That's seems massively non-obvious to me as a developer of stuff that I want to validate.
  104. # [15:34] <webben> such things are very useful in non-HTML contexts like Perl and JS.
  105. # [15:34] <hsivonen> webben: perhaps, but that's between you and the validator.nu bugzilla. It's not a spec issue.
  106. # [15:35] <webben> hsivonen: But your email was largely about the problems of writing a validator.
  107. # [15:36] <hsivonen> webben: feel free to follow up that you want the spec to provide syntax for a warning suppression pragma for this particular case
  108. # [15:36] <hsivonen> I still think that a pragma is less "simple" than not having one, but that's not very important
  109. # [15:37] <hsivonen> aside: adding data uri support turns out to be much more work than I thought
  110. # [15:38] <webben> That wouldn't be massively useful to me, as I don't really buy the idea that the UA's effort at faking alternative text will be better than mine.
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  112. # [15:40] <hsivonen> webben: that depends on what data and algorithms you have and what algorithms the UA has
  113. # [15:40] <webben> (and as soon as miraculous image recognition technology comes along, if I'm maintaining a huge photo database, I can replace my generated alternative text with better generated alternative text)
  114. # [15:40] <hsivonen> webben: there are more HTML generators than UAs, so the algorithm should reside in the UA
  115. # [15:41] <hsivonen> (or AT, rather)
  116. # [15:41] <webben> hsivonen: I think people placing the image online always have a little (even a very little) more information.
  117. # [15:41] <webben> And I suspect the technology would hit the HTML layer first, because the desktop software layer is slow moving.
  118. # [15:42] <hsivonen> webben: I don't see how generic hosting services have materially more info than UAs
  119. # [15:43] <webben> hsivonen: Well, for starters, if I'm trying to get an image from a generic hosting service, I want to know that the element in focus is the image I actually want
  120. # [15:43] <hsivonen> webben: you mean JAWS is slow-moving? ;-)
  121. # [15:43] <webben> rather than a UI element or a thumbnail or whatever
  122. # [15:43] <webben> so at the very least, it's helpful for such services to clearly designate the image element as such.
  123. # [15:43] <hsivonen> webben: it is a thumbnail if it is small and is a link
  124. # [15:44] <webben> not necessarily
  125. # [15:44] <webben> it might be a small original and link to a text description
  126. # [15:44] <webben> as far as the UA is concerned
  127. # [15:44] <webben> but the service developer knows better
  128. # [15:46] <hsivonen> well, the probability of design pattern violation is rather low
  129. # [15:46] <hsivonen> so assuming the design pattern is likely to yield successful usability in general
  130. # [15:48] <webben> Then you're depending on probabilities (and on design patterns not changing, or even that UA developers are going to be able to grok all those design patterns)
  131. # [15:48] <webben> the service developer doesn't need to depend on probabilities
  132. # [15:48] <webben> Flickr presents images with different sizes without links: http://www.flickr.com/photos/defekto/2220931919/sizes/sq/in/set-369739/
  133. # [15:49] <webben> (It's clear which size it is in Flickr's case from other information on the page, and that there are other sizes, and there's a text link for the download : I'm not sure that the same will hold for other services.)
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  135. # [15:50] <hsivonen> right, it's clear from context. it isn't clear then that disambiguation would be worthwhile
  136. # [15:51] <hsivonen> webben: no one is telling service providers not to include alt when doing so would be useful, btw
  137. # [15:52] <webben> Sure. There does seem to be plenty of disagreement about when it's useful however.
  138. # [15:52] <hsivonen> so if alt='thumbnail' yield better usability in that case, go for it
  139. # [15:52] <webben> The most interesting argument (to my mind) being Hixie's argument about future AI.
  140. # [15:53] <webben> I'm not sure we should design HTML around "future AI"; also, if we can count on future AI to determine the meaning of images, it should really be able to work out whether that meaning is additional to @alt.
  141. # [15:55] <webben> I completely agree with claims that e.g. alt="" is bad; I'm less persuaded that "35969607 JPEG" is better for end users than (say) "Uploaded Photo (full-size)".
  142. # [15:55] <webben> I'd prefer to see alt as full equivalent to be an ideal towards which one strives than a requirement for including an alt at all.
  143. # [15:55] <hsivonen> webben: a more realistic assumption is getting image analysis that can guess whether an image is a photo of the face of a person, a landscape, a drawing, etc. than getting AI that gives a high-quality descriptino
  144. # [15:57] <webben> Yeah, even then, users could query their AT for more information.
  145. # [15:57] <webben> just like now, you can press Control Option H to query for TITLE with VO.
  146. # [15:58] <webben> I'm not sure I'd want my software's guesses at what images are to be confused with what developers thought was appropriate alternative text.
  147. # [15:58] <hsivonen> webben: where can I find proper docs for VO, btw? I still haven't figured out a command for "read onwards from here until I say stop"
  148. # [15:59] <hsivonen> webben: that can be solved by VO chrome voice vs. content voice
  149. # [15:59] <webben> hsivonen: Proper docs: best docs are the on-board help. There's a PDF on Apple's VO site, but for some incomprehensible reason they haven't updated it for Leopard.
  150. # [16:00] <webben> hsivonen: Re the command you want, yeah, there are users who want that; in fact, I've been meaning to file a bug for that, just needed a copy of Leopard (which I know have)
  151. # [16:00] <webben> *now have
  152. # [16:01] <webben> hsivonen: for more information than Apple gives, try http://www.lioncourt.com/ and http://www.macvisionaries.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss_macvisionaries.com and http://www.freelists.org/archives/macvoiceover
  153. # [16:01] <hsivonen> thanks
  154. # [16:01] <webben> hsivonen: The way I guess I'd see it working would be "Uploaded photo (full-size)" being transformed into "Uploaded photo (full-size): looks like a car"
  155. # [16:08] <MikeSmith> hsivonen, anyway, I know I've said this before, but the most apt analogy that comes to mind for me in this case is to religious dogma
  156. # [16:09] <MikeSmith> "alt should always be required" has become an unquestioned tenet accepted just on the basis of faith
  157. # [16:09] <hsivonen> yeah
  158. # [16:10] <MikeSmith> but along with that, responses from some in the discussion show that they know that
  159. # [16:10] <MikeSmith> yet they still defend it
  160. # [16:11] <MikeSmith> like priests or ministers who are actually atheists or at least skeptics
  161. # [16:12] <gsnedders> Hixie: ping
  162. # [16:13] <MikeSmith> keeping the religion alive because they believe they people they're preaching to are otherwise too weak or stupid to make informed decisions on their own, and so need some kind of rigid, simple set of rules to guide their moral decisions
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  164. # [16:16] <gsnedders> Bible5!
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  166. # [16:23] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Assuming that everyone is not stupid and that everyone can understand complex rules just as well as simple rules seems hopelessly idealistic
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  169. # [16:40] <Lachy> I see no reason to distinguish between an author unintentionally omitting alt and a CMS user not caring enough to provide it. From the end user's (and assistive technology) point of view, they are the same
  170. # [16:41] <Lachy> The only time it seems to make sense to distinguish between the 2 cases is for quality assurance purposes, and an author can achive that without an expicit noalt indicator
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  182. # [18:25] <mpt> Once we've got AT vendors to make their software guess appropriate alt= text for images, maybe we can get browser vendors to guess appropriate text for pages
  183. # [18:26] <mpt> Then you won't need to actually load any pages, the browser's AI will just derive their content from the URL and the link text
  184. # [18:32] <annevk> Isn't that how George Bush became nr1 for "asshole" or so?
  185. # [18:39] <Philip`> mpt: More likely, we could try to get software to convert pages from one form (say, German) into another with equivalent content in a different form (say, English)
  186. # [18:39] <mpt> 2003 called, they want their Google back :-)
  187. # [18:42] <Philip`> I guess it's not that impossible, then :-)
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  189. # [19:08] * mpt discovers the sdapref= attribute
  190. # [19:13] <Lachy> mpt, what's sdapref?
  191. # [19:13] <mpt> Looks like it was in a draft of HTML 2.0, then withdrawn
  192. # [19:14] <mpt> "SDA attributes are designed to transform HTML (and other SGML-based documents) to the ICADD DTD - which is used in creating accessible documents for users with visual disabilities (rendering in Braille, large print, speech synthesis, etc.) The attribute value specifies content to be added BEFORE the original element content (in this case the string 'Input: ') when the SDA document is rendered."
  193. # [19:16] * Joins: tommorris (n=tommorri@i-83-67-98-32.freedom2surf.net)
  194. # [19:16] <annevk> http://ksi.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/archives/HTML-WG/html-wg-95q1.messages/0805.html suggests they have been removed in favor of automation...
  195. # [19:17] <mpt> Someone should found a Museum of Obsolete Markup
  196. # [19:17] <mpt> for sdapref= and <fig> and <xmp> and <spacer>
  197. # [19:18] <mpt> ("Back in my day, we used the lowsrc= attribute, and we *liked* it!")
  198. # [19:20] <tommorris> <font>?
  199. # [19:22] <Philip`> It's not a particularly commonly used attribute
  200. # [19:22] <Philip`> (I see it zero times in 130K documents)
  201. # [19:23] <tommorris> @style wasn't very common once. thankfully, nobody removed it before it's time.
  202. # [19:27] <gsnedders> tommorris: lowsrc has had just as long to prove itself, yet still nobody uses it
  203. # [19:27] * Quits: qwert666 (n=qwert666@acaq189.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) ("Leaving")
  204. # [19:28] <tommorris> gsnedders: I wasn't actually talking about @lowsrc - more the design principle of Unpave Unused Roads
  205. # [19:28] <tommorris> lack of head/@profile is my only complaint about HTML 5. ;)
  206. # [19:29] <Philip`> lowsrc is used loads
  207. # [19:29] <Philip`> like, on about 0.5% of pages
  208. # [19:29] <gsnedders> Philip`: what attribute do you see zero times, then?
  209. # [19:29] <mpt> gsnedders, lowsrc= was used quite a bit in the mid-'90s, but since the introduction of progress Jpeg and interlaced PNG, there's no point
  210. # [19:29] <mpt> (along with general improvement in connection speeds)
  211. # [19:30] <Philip`> gsnedders: Oops, I meant sdapref, but I failed to notice the conversation had moved on about before my grep finished
  212. # [19:30] <Philip`> s/about/a bit/
  213. # [19:30] <gsnedders> Philip`: :P
  214. # [19:30] <tommorris> is your dataset available?
  215. # [19:30] <Philip`> tommorris: Yes - it's the web :-)
  216. # [19:31] <tommorris> grep "foo" http://*.*
  217. # [19:31] <Philip`> (in particular a random subset of the biased subset of the web listed on dmoz.org)
  218. # [19:39] <webben> Thinking about it, a more useful signifier than noalt is an indication that the alt should not be considered in any sense a full equivalent.
  219. # [19:40] <webben> That would seem to meet the no-alt-provided-by-user use-case.
  220. # [19:40] <webben> while still providing better fallback for current tech.
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  224. # [20:24] <tommorris> If we've got any W3C people who maintain the Validator, there's a typo here: "The sequence <FOO /> can be interpreted in at least two different ways, depending on the DOCTYPE of the document. For HMTL 4.01 Strict, the '/' terminates the tag <FOO (with an implied '>'). However, since many browsers don't interpret it this way, even in the presence of an HMTL 4.01 Strict DOCTYPE, it is best to avoid it completely in pure HTML documents and
  225. # [20:25] <tommorris> That's on the string that comes up as advice for "NET-enabling start-tag requires SHORTTAG YES"
  226. # [20:26] <tommorris> s/HMTL/HTML
  227. # [20:26] <Lachy> tommorris, mail www-validator
  228. # [20:27] <tommorris> will do
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  232. # [20:45] <tommorris> the validator team know about the typo - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-validator/2008Feb/0012.html
  233. # [20:46] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@109.80-202-65.nextgentel.com)
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  236. # [21:07] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/survey/2007-07-17/analyse.cgi/attr/atl - hmm, not very popular
  237. # [21:10] <hsivonen> Philip`: QA is working!
  238. # [21:11] <Philip`> By the way, why does http://www.book-courier.com.ua/ have GIF data at the bottom?
  239. # [21:12] <Philip`> If HTML5 supports inline SVG images, I suppose it should support inline GIF and PNG and JPEG images too, since people are already using them
  240. # [21:12] <Philip`> Oh, it didn't have the GIF stuff after I reloaded
  241. # [21:14] <Philip`> Seems to do it randomly, a couple of times out of ten
  242. # [21:22] <hsivonen> I got the first political correctness email about "primary function"
  243. # [21:25] * Quits: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-218-215.dsl.pipex.com) ("I get eaten by the worms")
  244. # [21:29] <annevk> Hmm?
  245. # [21:31] <hsivonen> annevk: as I understand it, my statement about publishing pixels from a camera being the primary function of a photo publishing workflow was taken as a statement of some people being less primary than others
  246. # [21:39] * Joins: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-218-215.dsl.pipex.com)
  247. # [21:41] <Philip`> Followup to claims that Googlebot follows links used in XHR code: It seems to be dumb and follows the apparent links in (at least) code like "foo.whatnot('/bar/baz')"
  248. # [21:42] <Philip`> (I'm not sure where its limits of detection are, since it followed all of the links in the code I initially tested)
  249. # [21:43] <Philip`> It also follows at least <a href="javascript:window.location='/foo/bar'"> links, though I'm not sure where its limits there are either
  250. # [21:49] <annevk> hsivonen, :(
  251. # [21:52] <Philip`> (Yahoo and WebAlta don't follow any of those script links at all; everyone else is rubbish and hasn't crawled my test page yet)
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  262. # Session Close: Mon Apr 14 00:00:00 2008

The end :)