/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-04-16 / end

Options:

# Session Start: Wed Apr 16 00:00:00 2008
# Session Ident: #whatwg
# [00:02] * starjive is now known as starjive_sad
# [00:03] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.172) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
# [00:04] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@guest-226.mountainview.mozilla.com)
# [00:08] <Philip`> Someone needs to post something to public-html that is new and preferably not about alt again, so that my Gmail thread count reaches 1000
# [00:08] <Philip`> I hate when it's 999 because it just leaves me anticipating the rollover, and I don't even get any non-negligible satisfaction when it occurs
# [00:11] * Parts: hasather_ (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
# [00:14] <annevk> "Although Jeff Walden from MIT was gracious enough to share his thoughts" :)
# [00:14] <hsivonen> why do people keep calling the empty string null alt?
# [00:14] <hsivonen> how annoying
# [00:15] * Quits: mcarter (n=mcarter@ip-12-22-56-126.hqglobal.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
# [00:15] <Lachy> hsivonen, people do a lot more annoying things than that. I wouldn't worry about it.
# [00:15] * Joins: mcarter (n=mcarter@ip-12-22-56-126.hqglobal.net)
# [00:18] <Lachy> ... like letting the alt text discussion go round in circles.
# [00:19] <Dashiva> Lachy: I think we're forgetting the case where there's a known alt text that happens to be _none
# [00:20] <Lachy> I still haven't figured out how alt="_notsupplied" (or equivalent) is any better than omitting alt, nor why there is any reason to distinguish those 2 cases, given that neither will benefit the AT any more
# [00:21] <Dashiva> Well, apparently some people aren't convinced about not needing to separate them
# [00:21] <Lachy> The only justification for it seems to be a signal to a validator that the omission was intentional, but a validator couldn't really do anything more with alt="_notsupplied" than it could with an omitted alt
# [00:21] <Dashiva> And if pressed, I'm sure at least a few will say "A magic value makes it easier for the validator to spot where you forgot alt by accident"
# [00:22] <Philip`> Is that not true?
# [00:22] <Lachy> a user can request that the validator indicate machine-checkable criteria like that, even if it's not strictly required for syntactic conformance
# [00:22] <Lachy> Philip`, what?
# [00:23] <Dashiva> Philip`: It's a red herring
# [00:23] <Philip`> "user can request" sounds like it requires more UI, which is not good for the user-friendliness of validators
# [00:23] <hsivonen> Philip`: I think I'm going to deal with this in a way that requires yet another checkbox
# [00:23] <Dashiva> It would make it easier to spot accidental omissions, but a user handwriting a page isn't the problem at hand
# [00:24] <Philip`> Dashiva: A user handwriting a page becomes a problem if missing alt is no longer flagged
# [00:24] <Dashiva> No, he gets a checkbox
# [00:24] <Philip`> He probably forgets to check the checkbox
# [00:24] <Lachy> there might be alternative solutions to adding another checkbox, but a validator's UI isn't really relevant to a discussion about conformance criteria
# [00:25] <Dashiva> Philip`: That's about as relevant as someone who forgets to validate
# [00:25] * aroben|meeting is now known as aroben
# [00:25] <Philip`> Lachy: For the vast majority of people, validators are their only interaction with conformance criteria, so validators are critical to the discussion; and the validator's UI is important to the validator
# [00:26] <Philip`> (Well, for the vast majority of the people who have any interaction with conformance criteria at all)
# [00:26] <Lachy> if a user forgets to check the "Indicate missing alt" box, and the user wants to check for missing alt, he can always go back and revalidate
# [00:27] <Lachy> or maybe the validator could show a warning aboug missing alt by default in some way
# [00:27] <Philip`> Lachy: The user forgetting to check the checkbox gives identical results to if they did check it and had no errors, so they would have no reason to notice that they forgot to check it
# [00:28] <Lachy> it depends what the validation report looks like, and if it clearly indicates what was and wasn't checked
# [00:29] <Dashiva> Forgetful users can write a userjs that checks the box automatically :)
# [00:30] * Philip` usually only looks for one bit of information (passed or failed, i.e. green or red) when looking at validation reports
# [00:30] <hsivonen> Philip`: I don't intend to make the checkbox modify the validation function. I intend it to enable an integrated alt review assistant
# [00:30] <Philip`> Dashiva: I think you may be overestimating the abilities of users :-p
# [00:30] * Philip` doesn't even know how to write UserJS himself
# [00:31] <hsivonen> checkboxes on V.nu are bookmarkable
# [00:31] <Dashiva> Even better
# [00:31] <Philip`> Is there a discoverable way of using that?
# [00:32] <hsivonen> Philip`: there used to be, but it made UI strings too long
# [00:33] <Lachy> hsivonen, how are theybookmarkable?
# [00:33] <hsivonen> Lachy: make settings, leave the document address blank and press validate
# [00:34] <Dashiva> hsivonen: Make a "save settings" button that also does that :)
# [00:34] <Lachy> that could use a more intuitive UI
# [00:34] <Lachy> a save settings button should leave a cookie
# [00:34] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@guest-226.mountainview.mozilla.com)
# [00:38] * Quits: heycam` (n=cam@124-168-30-80.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("bye")
# [00:38] <jgraham_> Wow, I didn't expect Steve Faulkner to say that
# [00:39] <Dashiva> "Stop pointing out my hypocricy, that's a personal attack"
# [00:42] <annevk> "pathetic personal attack... but can anything more be expected?"
# [00:42] <annevk> hmm, from the people who cite my blog post on alt= at every occasion
# [00:43] <annevk> oh well, it's clearly too late for getting involved in alt bike sheds
# [00:43] * annevk -> bed
# [00:55] <jgraham_> Jacques has the best suggestion so far about @alt http://intertwingly.net/blog/2008/04/15/HTML5-SVG#c1208297906
# [00:55] <annevk> Searching on the Web for "limpid" I found this example of alt abuse: http://www.limpidmusic.nl/shoot.html
# [00:59] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.172)
# [00:59] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@99-200-192-233.area2.spcsdns.net)
# [01:00] <Hixie> i guess postMessage is the next priority
# [01:00] <Dashiva> jgraham_: I don't think Hixie would hold the spec hostage like that :)
# [01:02] <Dashiva> Odd... I switch back to the browser holding that intertwingly tab, and suddenly there's a huge red warning about comments and ip tracking and stuff. Where did that come from...
# [01:02] * gsnedders holds the spec hostage
# [01:02] <annevk> get in line :p
# [01:03] <Dashiva> The spec does have a frighteningly low bus factor, though
# [01:03] <Hixie> not really, the source is all out there, as is most of the feedback
# [01:04] <Hixie> and my dreamhost account is paying for itself in recurring referral fees
# [01:04] <jgraham_> Do they have buses in California?
# [01:04] <Hixie> so so long as you guys can find another editor, it should be easy to continue
# [01:04] <jgraham_> We should make them all stop, just in case
# [01:04] <Hixie> -_-
# [01:04] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.181)
# [01:04] <Hixie> i USE the busses!
# [01:05] <jgraham_> Segway? ;)
# [01:05] <Dashiva> Hixie: I'm not worried about the text, I'm worried about who's going to edit it
# [01:05] <Hixie> yeah well
# [01:05] <Philip`> Hixie: So if we can do the hard part, then the rest will be easy? That sounds kind of obvious :-)
# [01:05] <Hixie> that's a problem i'm worried about too
# [01:05] <Hixie> let me know if you find anyone :-)
# [01:05] <Hixie> there's plenty for them to do :-)
# [01:06] <Dashiva> Hixie: So you can jump in front of a bus? No way!
# [01:06] <Hixie> there's plenty for them to do even with me still editing all of html5!
# [01:08] * annevk -> bed, take 2
# [01:08] <jgraham_> It seem remarkably improbably that the world is as spec-editor deficient as it appears to be, which suggests that all the people who would be good at it are doing something else instead
# [01:08] <Dashiva> Like hiding
# [01:08] <Philip`> Maybe they all have proper jobs instead
# [01:09] <jgraham_> It's true that "spec editor" isn't one of the things that ever came up on those careers CDs they had at school
# [01:10] <jgraham_> the ones that always said something like "you should be an industrial chemist or a landscape gardener"
# [01:11] <Philip`> It doesn't seem very good as a career path - it won't be long before we have standards for everything imaginable and then your career would collapse and you'd have to learn some other trade
# [01:12] <roc> yeah right
# [01:12] <Hixie> hah
# [01:12] <jgraham_> Only if we solve hard AI
# [01:12] <Hixie> it's not a particularly great career path, but that certainly isn't why
# [01:13] <roc> I think good QA people make good spec editors
# [01:13] <Dashiva> Philip`: Don't worry, you can always get a job on the OOXML improvements committee
# [01:13] <jgraham_> then the machines can write their own damn standards
# [01:13] <roc> unfortunately I haven't been able to persuade our good QA people to head in that direction
# [03:13] * Disconnected
# [10:08] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
# [10:08] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
# [10:08] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
# [10:08] * Set by gsnedders on Tue Dec 18 21:41:19
# [10:16] <annevk> the latest message from Steven does indeed state the assumption is that <img> with no alt attribute is more often equivalent than <img alt> than not
# [10:16] <annevk> s/is that/that/ s/equivalent than/equivalent to/
# [10:16] * jwalden tries not to think too much about the RMSish vibes he gets from Crockford sometimes
# [10:16] <annevk> http://www.google.com/search?q=define:rms ?
# [10:16] <virtuelv> Richard M. Stallman
# [10:16] <jwalden> the feeling that everything he says is to be interpreted as some sort of dogma
# [10:16] <jwalden> the right and holy way
# [10:16] * MikeSmith wonders why mail-archive.com mirror of whatwg archive is often first in Google hits rather than actual whatwg link
# [10:20] * Quits: MacDome (n=eric@c-24-130-11-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [10:41] * Disconnected
# [10:41] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
# [10:41] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
# [10:41] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
# [10:41] * Set by gsnedders on Tue Dec 18 21:41:19
# [10:41] <MikeSmith> "Dave Winer and Captain Crunch were also both in the room, and their preferences also were in order JSONRequest, XDR and Access Control."
# [10:42] <hsivonen> lol
# [11:10] * Disconnected
# [11:10] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
# [11:10] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
# [11:10] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
# [11:10] * Set by gsnedders on Tue Dec 18 21:41:19
# [11:13] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-cd0dc1177ab52eb9)
# [11:14] * Quits: jwalden (n=waldo@STRATTON-ONE-FIFTY-SEVEN.MIT.EDU) (Remote closed the connection)
# [11:15] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@ti200710a340-2662.bb.online.no) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
# [11:20] * Joins: Dashiva (i=Dashiva@wikia/Dashiva)
# [11:27] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
# [11:41] <MikeSmith> fyi:
# [11:41] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/2008/mobile-test/test.html
# [11:42] <MikeSmith> Web Compatibility Test for Mobile Browsers
# [11:42] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/blog/MWITeam/2008/04/16/web_compatibility_test_for_mobile_browse
# [11:42] <MikeSmith> and http://dev.w3.org/2008/mobile-test/doc.html
# [11:44] <annevk> yeah, pretty cool
# [11:50] <MikeSmith> another product of Dominique Hazael-Massieux
# [11:50] <MikeSmith> though I guess others may have contributed
# [11:50] <annevk> yeah, people in that WG
# [11:50] <annevk> and collegues of people in that WG :)
# [11:50] <MikeSmith> ah
# [11:51] <MikeSmith> Kai Hendry comment to me about that: "I think these acid-list tests are far more effective then writing docs of what people should be doing (best practice)."
# [11:51] <MikeSmith> my reply to which was, Amen.
# [12:06] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
# [12:09] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
# [12:16] * Quits: Dashiva (i=Dashiva@wikia/Dashiva) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
# [12:17] * Quits: sverrej (n=sverrej@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
# [12:18] <annevk> given that <img> doesn't read out anything now, but the proposed alternative <img alt noalt> doesn't either I have no idea why the latter is better
# [12:18] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@99-200-222-137.area2.spcsdns.net)
# [12:19] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@pat-tdc.opera.com)
# [12:22] * Joins: Dashiva (i=Dashiva@wikia/Dashiva)
# [12:30] * Quits: Dashiva (i=Dashiva@wikia/Dashiva)
# [12:33] * Joins: Dashiva (i=Dashiva@wikia/Dashiva)
# [12:37] <Lachy> some people seem to be providing conflicting information about how current screen readers handle a missing alt attribute.
# [12:38] <Dashiva> Probably just different screen readers (and versions), considering how bad the update cycle is
# [12:38] <Lachy> Previously, we had been told that they attempt to read the file name or use some other available repair text. But Steve now says <img> is treated the same as <img alt=""> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Apr/0467.html
# [12:44] <hsivonen> Lachy: I gather it depends on the linkness of the image in at least JAWS
# [12:44] <Lachy> ok
# [12:46] * Quits: sverrej (n=sverrej@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
# [12:46] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@pat-tdc.opera.com)
# [12:47] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@99-200-222-137.area2.spcsdns.net)
# [12:54] * Quits: kfish (n=conrad@61.194.21.25) ("kyo!")
# [13:09] * hsivonen notes that even the VoiceOver Utility uses textual alternatives for images in a dogmatic and less usable way
# [13:10] <hsivonen> instead of just saying "General", it says "General, Image, General" reading out both the icon's textual alternative and the textual label
# [13:11] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Apr/0486.html
# [13:11] <annevk> is my reasoning flawed?
# [13:17] * Joins: grimeboy (n=grimboy@78-105-162-250.zone3.bethere.co.uk)
# [13:18] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-cd0dc1177ab52eb9)
# [13:20] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
# [13:31] <annevk> at least Steven missed the point of my conclusion...
# [13:31] <annevk> good start I guess :)
# [13:32] * Lachy wonders why other people missing your point is a "good start"!?
# [13:33] * Quits: grimboy (n=grimboy@78-105-162-250.zone3.bethere.co.uk) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
# [13:34] <annevk> I was being sarcastic
# [13:42] <MikeSmith> annevk, my build of Opera seems to be rendering a part of the mobile test page that is actually commented out
# [13:42] <MikeSmith> the "Proposed additions and changes" part
# [13:47] <MikeSmith> annevk, oops. It appears that my Opera actually has cached an older version of the page
# [13:47] <MikeSmith> and isn't actually loading the remote page
# [13:48] * MikeSmith tries to remember how to force Opera to ignore cache and reload the real page
# [13:50] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p1215-ipbf3008marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
# [13:53] <annevk> F5?
# [13:55] <MikeSmith> annevk, yep
# [13:55] <MikeSmith> thanks
# [13:56] * Joins: tor_ (n=tor@cpe-24-28-29-26.austin.res.rr.com)
# [13:57] <annevk> I guess people expect something more complex, like Shift+F5 :)
# [13:59] * Quits: sverrej (n=sverrej@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
# [14:00] <Dashiva> I was used to ctrl-F5 from IE. That turned out to be a bad idea in Opera
# [14:03] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@pat-tdc.opera.com)
# [14:05] * Joins: Camaban (n=alee@77-103-78-94.cable.ubr08.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk)
# [14:05] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
# [14:13] <zcorpan> jgraham_: fwiw, i'm definitely interested in spending 30 mins classifying images, if that helps
# [14:18] <Philip`> Dashiva: What does ctrl-F5 do?
# [14:18] <Philip`> (For me it just makes KDE switch virtual desktops)
# [14:22] <Philip`> annevk: "You assume a minority case is likely to occur more often and the editor assumes a majority case is likely to occur more often" - I think making any assumptions about the occurrences of certain case when there's no data is incorrect
# [14:22] <Philip`> *cases
# [14:23] <Philip`> so you can't say it's more correct to make one assumption based on no data, than to make a different assumption based on no data
# [14:23] <Philip`> Solution: Get data :-)
# [14:24] <Dashiva> Philip`: Reload -all- tabs
# [14:25] <Philip`> Dashiva: Oh, you use multiple tabs?
# [14:25] * Philip` only visits a single site at a time
# [14:25] <Philip`> It saves all these kinds of problems
# [14:27] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
# [14:29] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
# [14:37] <Philip`> annevk: http://annevankesteren.nl/2008/04/html5-svg - s/tempered/tampered/
# [14:38] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@70-13-128-2.area2.spcsdns.net)
# [14:39] <Dashiva> Is mathematics really a plural?
# [14:40] <Philip`> Dashiva: No, since you can't get a mathematic
# [14:40] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p1215-ipbf3008marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
# [14:41] <Philip`> (I believe it's the same as physics)
# [14:41] <Philip`> annevk: s/Mathematics have/Mathematics has/ :-)
# [14:41] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-16285a19fc084820)
# [14:42] <Philip`> (Wikipedia says "In English [...] the noun mathematics takes singular verb forms." which sounds right to me)
# [14:45] <Philip`> (Just don't ever say "math" because that sounds stupid)
# [14:46] <Dashiva> Math are hard
# [14:51] <annevk> Philip`, I agree with getting data
# [14:51] <annevk> Philip`, fixed, thanks
# [14:53] <annevk> Philip`, though without data there's no reason to assume one case is more common than another :)
# [14:53] <Philip`> annevk: But you seem to be suggesting making decisions in the (perhaps temporary) absence of data, just because those decisions seem kind of sensible, when the only justifiable approach is to not make any decisions until there is data
# [14:54] <Philip`> annevk: There's no reason to assume one case is not more common than another either :-)
# [14:54] <Philip`> so all assumptions are unreasonable
# [14:57] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@70-13-128-2.area2.spcsdns.net)
# [15:13] * Joins: webben_ (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-5e97cf38b571f0c6)
# [15:19] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-16285a19fc084820) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
# [15:19] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p1215-ipbf3008marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
# [15:30] * Joins: csarven (n=csarven@on-irc.csarven.ca)
# [15:39] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
# [15:40] * Parts: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
# [15:41] * Quits: tor_ (n=tor@cpe-24-28-29-26.austin.res.rr.com)
# [15:52] * Philip` tries to compare the cost of writing a simple XML serialiser in OCaml, vs finding an existing serialiser library and working out how to compile it and integrate it into the project's build system and how to use it
# [15:53] <Philip`> (I think the former choice currently looks like it'll win)
# [15:53] * Joins: davidb (n=davidb@142.150.154.101)
# [16:04] * Joins: phsiao (n=shawn@c-71-233-78-251.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
# [16:08] * Quits: phsiao (n=shawn@c-71-233-78-251.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
# [16:10] * Quits: davidb (n=davidb@142.150.154.101)
# [16:11] * Joins: davidb (n=davidb@142.150.154.101)
# [16:15] * Joins: MacDome (n=eric@c-24-130-11-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [16:17] * Quits: Camaban (n=alee@77-103-78-94.cable.ubr08.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk) ("Ex-Chat")
# [16:18] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-69e43a99bd513f99)
# [16:18] * Quits: MacDome (n=eric@c-24-130-11-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
# [16:21] * Joins: tor_ (n=tor@nat/ibm/x-82480d5aa2d07631)
# [16:27] * Joins: billmason (n=billmaso@ip200.unival.com)
# [16:33] * Joins: phsiao (n=shawn@nat/ibm/x-355f870b7a58af40)
# [16:34] * Quits: webben_ (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-5e97cf38b571f0c6) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
# [16:37] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-836f59f40f40fa85)
# [16:37] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-836f59f40f40fa85) (Remote closed the connection)
# [16:45] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
# [16:47] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
# [16:50] * Joins: qwert666_ (n=qwert666@acar70.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)
# [16:52] <annevk> Philip`, I guess that's fair enough, yeah
# [16:52] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-96958a03d92393bf)
# [16:55] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote closed the connection)
# [17:02] * Quits: csarven (n=csarven@on-irc.csarven.ca) (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
# [17:04] * Joins: csarven (n=csarven@on-irc.csarven.ca)
# [17:04] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
# [17:07] * Quits: qwert666 (n=qwert666@acag9.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) (Connection timed out)
# [17:10] <Philip`> Wow, I can generate RELAX NG schemas and they actually work
# [17:10] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
# [17:11] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
# [17:11] <Philip`> and given zero experience, then reading a few parts of the tutorial, my first attempt only had one error (I didn't realise it needed <empty/>)
# [17:11] <Philip`> so it doesn't seem too complex, which is nice
# [17:14] <zcorpan> Philip`: generate from what?
# [17:15] <Philip`> zcorpan: Some data structure inside a sort of compiler
# [17:16] <Philip`> (in OCaml)
# [17:17] <zcorpan> what are the schemas for?
# [17:17] <Philip`> (I can't think of any way to describe it in more detail that wouldn't requires pages of background information :-( )
# [17:18] * zcorpan demands pages of background information
# [17:18] <Philip`> Well, you could start with http://www.sigcomm.org/sigcomm2005/paper-GriSob.pdf :-p
# [17:19] <Philip`> (Warning: I suggest not doing so)
# [17:20] <Philip`> zcorpan: In theory, the compiler could generate some code to parse XML files into a custom in-memory data structure (in C++), and that could be used via the NETCONF protocol (or the custom Cisco XML protocol or whatever) to configure network routers
# [17:20] <Philip`> and so the schema is for those XML files
# [17:21] <Philip`> In practice, I don't think I'll bother generating code to parse XML, since it's more useful to generate code to parse the ugly textual configuration files instead, but the XML thing is useful as a rough proof of concept :-)
# [17:23] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@s142-179-108-33.bc.hsia.telus.net)
# [17:23] <zcorpan> ok :)
# [17:24] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@s142-179-108-33.bc.hsia.telus.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
# [17:25] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@s142-179-108-33.bc.hsia.telus.net)
# [17:26] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@s142-179-108-33.bc.hsia.telus.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
# [17:26] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@s142-179-108-33.bc.hsia.telus.net)
# [17:27] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@s142-179-108-33.bc.hsia.telus.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
# [17:31] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@ti200710a340-2662.bb.online.no)
# [17:34] * Philip` wonders if there's an RNG-to-RNC converter that gives particularly pretty output
# [17:52] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Remote closed the connection)
# [17:59] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@109.80-202-65.nextgentel.com)
# [18:05] * Joins: akempgen (n=Alex@p5494DAE9.dip.t-dialin.net)
# [18:10] * aroben is now known as aroben|lunch
# [18:10] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-67-160-251-228.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [18:17] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p1215-ipbf3008marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
# [18:25] <annevk> krijnh, for linking URIs could you use the regular expression in http://intertwingly.net/code/mombo/post.py
# [18:25] <annevk> search for "naked urls"
# [18:26] <Philip`> That really could do with using r'' strings
# [18:51] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
# [18:52] * Joins: davidb_ (n=davidb@142.150.154.101)
# [19:03] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
# [19:07] * aroben|lunch is now known as aroben
# [19:08] * Quits: davidb (n=davidb@142.150.154.101) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
# [19:09] * Joins: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
# [19:10] <zcorpan_> annevk: isn't it "rapid progress", not "rapid process"?
# [19:13] * Quits: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@dhcp-0000036913-b5-5e.client.fas.harvard.edu)
# [19:15] <annevk> three documented typos so far and counting :)
# [19:17] * Joins: fantasai (i=fantasai@connectionreset.info)
# [19:18] <fantasai> hixie, can you add a link to the multipage version from whatwg.org/specs/ ? The full spec is huge, and it would be nice to get to the multipage version without having to download the entire thing.
# [19:19] <mcarter> I think the event-source dom element should expose a lastReceivedId attribute which corresponds to the value it will send back to the server in the Last-Received-ID header
# [19:19] <annevk> fantasai, whatwg.org/html5
# [19:19] * Quits: csarven (n=csarven@on-irc.csarven.ca) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
# [19:20] <annevk> mcarter, public-html-comments@w3.org or whatwg@whatwg.org
# [19:20] <annevk> (you need to be subscribed to the latter)
# [19:20] <fantasai> annevk: nice.. but it'd still be nice to have the link for when I haven't got the short version memorized :)
# [19:20] <mcarter> annevk, whats the difference between the two lists besides the subscription requirement for whatwg?
# [19:22] <annevk> mcarter, for providing feedback they're more or less equivalent
# [19:22] <zcorpan_> mcarter: you'll probably get annoying disclaimers in replies on public-html-comments ;)
# [19:23] * gsnedders wonders whether to start using a disclaimer that implicitly makes itself questionable
# [19:23] <gsnedders> (in similar vain to "everything I say today is bullshit" — is that bullshit?)
# [19:24] <zcorpan_> gsnedders: you don't need a disclaimer for that
# [19:25] <gsnedders> zcorpan_: Why? Because it is me?
# [19:25] <annevk> mcarter, oh wait, this is #whatwg, just e-mail whatwg@whatwg.org :)
# [19:25] <zcorpan_> it's understood that everything gsnedders says is bullshit
# [19:25] * annevk thought this was #html-wg and tried to be politically correct
# [19:25] <gsnedders> zcorpan_: that's what I was guessing :)
# [19:26] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.172)
# [19:26] <mcarter> annevk, ok, thanks
# [19:26] * Joins: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@dhcp-0000036913-b5-5e.client.fas.harvard.edu)
# [19:26] <gsnedders> zcorpan_: Why do I bother even writing a http-parsing spec? It'll all be bullshit under that theory :)
# [19:27] <annevk> well, if it happens to be correct we might use it :)
# [19:28] * gsnedders still needs to email Yugne
# [19:28] <gsnedders> (I know that's spelt wrong, I can't spell :P)
# [19:28] <gsnedders> But there again, everything I say is bullshit anyway, so why need I say that? :)
# [19:29] * Quits: sverrej (n=sverrej@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
# [19:29] <gsnedders> My initial attempt at spelling before changing it was closer. Dangnamit!
# [19:36] * Joins: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober)
# [19:37] * Joins: tommorris (n=tommorri@i-83-67-98-32.freedom2surf.net)
# [19:49] * Quits: mcarter (n=mcarter@ip-12-22-56-126.hqglobal.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
# [19:50] * Philip` wishes he could find a way to make RELAX NG accept things with 0..n repetitions where n is finite
# [19:50] * annevk wishes he had some way to figure out whether or not IE made XHTML fail
# [19:51] <annevk> Mostly because I think it was due to XHTML and not IE
# [19:51] <annevk> or XML rather
# [19:51] * Joins: csarven (n=csarven@on-irc.csarven.ca)
# [19:51] <Philip`> Maybe it's useful to compare XHTML to other web technologies that aren't supported in IE
# [19:52] <Philip`> (but are in other browsers)
# [19:52] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-69e43a99bd513f99)
# [19:53] <annevk> <canvas> dumdiedum
# [19:53] * Parts: fantasai (i=fantasai@connectionreset.info) ("laters")
# [19:54] * Parts: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
# [19:54] * Joins: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
# [19:55] <Philip`> annevk: That can be emulated in IE, so it's not as IE-hostile as XHTML is
# [19:55] <Philip`> and anyway <canvas> seems to be used less than XHTML
# [19:56] <zcorpan_> Philip`: how do you measure the usage of each?
# [19:56] <Philip`> <blink> is pretty popular (~0.6% of my pages), and that doesn't work in IE, but it degrades gracefully so it's not comparable to XHTML
# [19:57] <Philip`> zcorpan_: By looking in my dmoz.org pages and then making unjustifiable claims with far too little evidence and hoping nobody notices
# [19:58] <Philip`> (I saw 39 sites with application/xhtml+xml, and only one with canvas)
# [19:59] <zcorpan_> Philip`: i suspect that some pages that use canvas create them with script
# [20:00] <zcorpan_> Philip`: what was the Accept header when getting those pages?
# [20:01] <annevk> I don't think there are that many othe Web technologies with the same properties
# [20:01] <Philip`> zcorpan_: text/html,application/xhtml+xml,application/xml;q=0.9,*/*;q=0.8 (copied from Firefox 3)
# [20:01] <annevk> other*
# [20:02] <Philip`> There's SVG (in <object> or whatever), which doesn't work in default IE and doesn't have great fallback behaviour
# [20:02] <annevk> SVG is done in libraries with a special code path for IE
# [20:02] <Philip`> In some tens of thousands of pages, I don't see the string .svg" at all except on Wikipedia, so I guess not many people are using SVG
# [20:02] <shepazu> lousy fallback behavior, worse in IE7
# [20:03] <Philip`> (*not using it in a way that involves web pages linking to or including it)
# [20:03] <zcorpan_> Philip`: i would suspect most of those 39 pages are "faked XHTML" in ie by serving ie text/html
# [20:03] * Philip` finds <a href="news:netscape.public.mozilla.svg" ...> but thinks that doesn't count
# [20:04] <annevk> maybe it's not worth making a point about it given the other flaws XHTML has
# [20:05] * Philip` really needs to make his grep thing faster - it takes far too long to read 3GB from disk
# [20:05] <Philip`> (Also, I wish Linux cached more of those files in RAM, since I have plenty)
# [20:06] <Philip`> Hmm, I'd better not count answers.com either since that's just copying Wikipedia
# [20:07] <Philip`> Still can't find anyone else using SVG :-/
# [20:08] <shepazu> Open Clipart
# [20:09] <Philip`> shepazu: I can find people if I look specifically - I'm just seeing if I can find any in a random set of pages, since that'd give some kind of idea of how widespread it is within that (biased) population
# [20:09] <shepazu> oic
# [20:10] * Philip` updates his thing to look for \.svgz\?" so it would at least find his own SVG-using page (except it's not in the list that's being checked)
# [20:10] <Philip`> Ooh, there's some now
# [20:12] <Philip`> http://www.culturanuova.net/filosofia/kierkegaard.php
# [20:12] <Hixie> Dashiva: help@whatwg.org was supposed to be that; feel free to subscribe, field questions, and advertise the list :-)
# [20:12] <Philip`> uses http://www.culturanuova.net/img/sacrificio_isacco.svgz which sadly doesn't work - Firefox doesn't try decompressing it, and Opera does but doesn't display it
# [20:12] <Philip`> and its <svg> isn't in a namespace
# [20:13] * Joins: heycam` (n=cam@124-168-100-30.dyn.iinet.net.au)
# [20:14] <Hixie> btw the difference between the various lists is quite simple
# [20:14] <Hixie> i take all the lists into account
# [20:14] <Hixie> but if after reading all the feedback and considering all the options i end up picking a couse that disagrees with you, you are more likely to get a reply if you post to the whatwg list
# [20:14] <Philip`> http://www.zentido.net/ confused me since it has <img ... alt="715px-Obama_08.svg" src="files/page0_sidebar_1.png" .../>
# [20:15] <Hixie> (like, almost guaranteed)
# [20:15] <annevk> Hixie, so you read all public-html e-mail?
# [20:16] <Hixie> (and the only reason you wouldn't get a reply is if you're one of the regulars here and i've spoken to you about the issue at some point anyway, or you've changed your mind since writing the e-mail. Or, the e-mail you wrote is a reply to someone else and it's not clear how I would reply.)
# [20:16] <Hixie> annevk: yes
# [20:16] <annevk> great
# [20:16] <Philip`> http://beat.doebe.li/bibliothek/p00210.html has a link to an .svg, and also the page badly break Opera 9.2
# [20:18] <Philip`> Oh, it's actually got <object> .svg too, but Firebug is broken and seems to pretend it's not there
# [20:18] <Philip`> (The Opera problem seems like poor SVG rendering performance; 9.5 is much better)
# [20:18] * Quits: akempgen (n=Alex@p5494DAE9.dip.t-dialin.net)
# [20:19] <Hixie> having said that
# [20:19] <Philip`> http://www.amfanatl.org - livesrc? What's that from?
# [20:19] <Hixie> these alt text people sure are testing my ability to read everything
# [20:19] <annevk> Philip`, GoLive maybe
# [20:20] <Philip`> http://tavmjong.free.fr/INKSCAPE/MANUAL/web/svg_tests.php - that's got SVG
# [20:20] <annevk> http://www.google.com/search?q=livesrc
# [20:20] <Philip`> http://www.svgx.org too
# [20:20] * Joins: akempgen (n=Alex@p5494F099.dip.t-dialin.net)
# [20:21] <annevk> Sites promoting SVG as technology, how surprising :)
# [20:21] <Philip`> http://stud.ics.p.lodz.pl/~steven/test_php/ uses .svg in <embed> so it only works in IE
# [20:21] <Philip`> So, that's 5 pages which embed SVG graphics, out of about 130,000 minus Wikipedia minus answers.com
# [20:22] <Philip`> so embedding SVG is less popular than serving XHTML to some browsers
# [20:22] <annevk> I found quite a lot of SVG content on the Web which is abandoned and only works with the Adobe plugin
# [20:22] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@124-168-30-80.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable))
# [20:23] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.203.15.181)
# [20:24] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
# [20:26] <zcorpan_> Philip`: svg in <embed> should work in opera. although i get a 404 if i try to follow the embed src
# [20:26] <Philip`> zcorpan_: Oh, right, that would kind of stop it working
# [20:27] <zcorpan_> indeed :)
# [20:29] <Philip`> So, excluding pages that don't work and sites that are specifically promoting SVG, that leaves about 0.001% (+/- an order of magnitude or two) of the web which embeds SVG
# [20:29] <Philip`> compared to e.g. 10% that use PNG images
# [20:30] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@static-68-236-184-75.ny325.east.verizon.net)
# [20:30] * Quits: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@dhcp-0000036913-b5-5e.client.fas.harvard.edu)
# [20:30] <Philip`> and 70% that use GIF
# [20:31] <Hixie> i couldn't find any svg content when i looked, but i wasn't looking at <img>, <embed>, and <object>, only <a>
# [20:31] <Hixie> found a lot of GIFs though
# [20:32] <Philip`> Hixie: I guess you didn't look enough to see http://beat.doebe.li/bibliothek/p00210.html
# [20:33] * davidb_ is now known as davidb
# [20:33] <Philip`> (and 61% use JPEG)
# [20:33] <Philip`> (or, more precisely, match /\.jpe?g"/, so it's a bit of an underestimate)
# [20:33] * Philip` needs to multithread his grepper
# [20:35] <Philip`> (and 0.6% use BMP)
# [20:36] <Philip`> (PPM is used as much as SVG is non-erroneously non-promotionally used, i.e. once)
# [20:36] <zcorpan_> so BMP support should be a higher priority than SVG support
# [20:37] <Hixie> Philip`: at the time i was (for various technical reasons i won't go into) unable to get numbers below a certain significance threshold
# [20:37] <Philip`> Oops
# [20:37] <Philip`> There was 0 PPM
# [20:37] * Philip` needs to be careful to not count the "make: ... is up to date" line
# [20:38] <zcorpan_> 0.6% BMP really? sounds like a lot
# [20:39] <Hixie> indeed
# [20:39] * Hixie dumps the entire alt="" debate into this graphics-img-alt folder to read later
# [20:40] <Philip`> Hixie: It's always good to keep something fun to look forward to
# [20:40] <Pavlov> whats the alt debate?
# [20:41] <Philip`> Pavlov: HTML5 currently says to omit alt in a few cases, some people say it should be always required, two hundred emails ensue
# [20:41] <Pavlov> lol
# [20:42] <Philip`> zcorpan_: (?i)<img[^>]*src="[^>]*\.bmp" matches 0.5% of my pages, so it does seem like people are using it quite a bit
# [20:43] <zcorpan_> Philip`: interesting
# [20:44] <Philip`> I suppose I should just count all the file extensions, instead of guessing file extensions and then counting how often they come up...
# [20:45] <zcorpan_> to be sure you need to inspect the first few bytes of each image resource
# [20:45] <zcorpan_> file extension and mime type can be lying!
# [20:46] <zcorpan_> (though i don't know how often images are mislabeled)
# [20:46] <Philip`> zcorpan_: I'm hardly going to download two million image files when I can simply count the filenames and get a good enough approximation :-p
# [20:46] <zcorpan_> Philip`: bah :P
# [20:46] <Philip`> although I can't quite work out how to count the filenames
# [20:47] <Philip`> (given the limitation that I only want to bother writing a single line of code)
# [20:49] <Philip`> Hooray, find and xargs and perl
# [20:53] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/data/img-src-extensions.txt
# [20:53] <Philip`> (Total number of occurrences, not number of pages)
# [20:53] <Philip`> (and I skipped the 50K file 'extensions' that only occurred once)
# [20:54] <Philip`> ('extension' means $1 in /<img[^>]*src="[^>]*\.(.*?)"/)
# [20:54] <Philip`> (Oops, I should have used [^>] rather than .)
# [20:55] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-67-160-251-228.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
# [20:59] <Philip`> Anyway, GIF dominates, JPEG dominates less, PNG is kind of respectable, COM shouldn't be there, and BMP is on the edge of fading into the region of who-really-cares
# [21:04] <Hixie> these alt arguments seem to rest on the behaviour on non-conforming pages
# [21:04] <Hixie> but at that point all is lost anyway
# [21:05] <Hixie> since who knows _what_ the alt attribute will say
# [21:05] <Philip`> Non-conforming pages are biased towards being similar to conforming pages, rather than being totally random
# [21:05] <Philip`> *totally randomly distributed across all possible byte streams
# [21:06] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@206.47.36.150)
# [21:06] <Hixie> sure, but flickr shows that there will be as many alt="harmful value" images as images with no alt, and so treating those cases differently seems wrong if we are worrying about non-conforming pages
# [21:09] <zcorpan_> Philip`: i get 0.07% bmp from that data
# [21:10] <hsivonen> Philip`: re: serializer: did you try Genx
# [21:10] <hsivonen> Philip`: do you consider Trang output pretty?
# [21:11] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@static-68-236-184-75.ny325.east.verizon.net)
# [21:12] <hsivonen> Philip`: 0..n is a violation of zero, one, infinity rule! it's a feature
# [21:12] <zcorpan_> Hixie: do you expect ATs to behave differently when it looks at a page it thinks is conforming from a page it thinks is non-conforming?
# [21:15] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
# [21:15] <hsivonen> Philip`: I tried to argue the zero, one, infinity rule on Wikipedia, but the person exercising ownership over the article didn't buy the argument
# [21:19] <Philip`> zcorpan_: I was counting number of pages the first time
# [21:19] <Philip`> which was 700ish out of 130000ish
# [21:20] <Philip`> hsivonen: When I'm writing an XML file to represent a bounded list, and the bound is not one, I think I'd appreciate the ability to violate that rule :-p
# [21:21] <hsivonen> Philip`: you need to use n time 'foo?'
# [21:21] <Philip`> hsivonen: n might be, say, 2^16
# [21:22] <hsivonen> Philip`: according to anecdotes, current schema technology doesn't scale to that
# [21:22] <hsivonen> Philip`: if you do that in XSD, expect bad performance
# [21:22] <Philip`> hsivonen: Do you mean checking XML files with 2^16 elements, or writing schemas with 2^16 rules?
# [21:22] <Philip`> If the latter, that's why I don't want to use n time 'foo?' :-)
# [21:23] <hsivonen> Philip`: checking for repetition 0..2^16 elements is bad for grammar-based validation performance
# [21:23] <hsivonen> grammars do zero, one and infinity well
# [21:24] <Philip`> I'm not forcing people to write grammar-based validators
# [21:24] <Philip`> Anyway, I'll just do the repetition-count validation in the C++ code that I'm never going to write, because that'll save me a lot of effort
# [21:25] <Philip`> Oh, actually, I think someone's already written most of that code, so that's alright
# [21:25] * Philip` heads off home
# [21:27] * Joins: aroben_ (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
# [21:27] <Hixie> hah
# [21:27] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/issues/data.html
# [21:27] <Hixie> the blip is the alt text discussion
# [21:27] <Hixie> which i just read and dealt with
# [21:27] <Hixie> so it'll go down with the next data point
# [21:28] <hsivonen> that looks small
# [21:29] <annevk> it's about 48 e-mails
# [21:30] <annevk> euh, 38
# [21:36] <Hixie> for one night's worth of e-mails on one topic, it's a lot
# [21:36] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Nick collision from services.)
# [21:36] * aroben_ is now known as aroben
# [21:51] * Joins: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@dhcp-0000036913-b5-5e.client.fas.harvard.edu)
# [21:51] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@206.47.36.150) ("The computer fell asleep")
# [21:52] * Joins: grimboy_uk (n=grimboy@78-105-162-250.zone3.bethere.co.uk)
# [21:54] * Quits: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
# [21:56] * Joins: csarven- (n=csarven@on-irc.csarven.ca)
# [21:58] * Quits: wakaba (n=w@118.162.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp) (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
# [21:58] * Joins: wakaba (n=w@118.162.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp)
# [21:59] * Quits: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@dhcp-0000036913-b5-5e.client.fas.harvard.edu)
# [22:01] * Joins: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@dhcp-0000036913-b5-5e.client.fas.harvard.edu)
# [22:08] * Quits: grimeboy (n=grimboy@78-105-162-250.zone3.bethere.co.uk) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
# [22:10] * Joins: Pavlov_ (n=pavlov@shell.off.net)
# [22:17] * Quits: Pavlov_ (n=pavlov@shell.off.net) (Remote closed the connection)
# [22:18] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
# [22:21] * Joins: Pavlov_ (n=pavlov@shell.off.net)
# [22:21] * Quits: Pavlov (n=pavlov@67.196.136.173) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
# [22:22] * Quits: tommorris (n=tommorri@i-83-67-98-32.freedom2surf.net)
# [22:24] * Quits: grimboy_uk (n=grimboy@78-105-162-250.zone3.bethere.co.uk) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
# [22:28] * Quits: Pavlov_ (n=pavlov@shell.off.net) (Remote closed the connection)
# [22:35] * Joins: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
# [22:35] <zcorpan_> annevk: btw, i made you administrator on f.w.o so you can delete users and their posts if they spam
# [22:38] <Philip`> s/you can/I expect you to/ ? :-)
# [22:38] <gsnedders> s/you can/you will/ ? :)
# [22:39] * annevk looks for spam
# [22:39] <Philip`> (Argh, I updated my JDK a while ago and now Eclipse crashes on startup)
# [22:45] * Joins: andersca (n=andersca@nat/apple/x-9d3a62f1daab1f7d)
# [22:46] * Joins: Camaban (n=alee@85-211-106-28.dyn.gotadsl.co.uk)
# [22:47] * Quits: akempgen (n=Alex@p5494F099.dip.t-dialin.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
# [22:48] * Joins: akempgen (n=Alex@p5494F099.dip.t-dialin.net)
# [22:53] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@static-68-236-184-75.ny325.east.verizon.net)
# [22:54] * Philip` gives up and uses vim instead
# [22:56] * Quits: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
# [23:01] * Quits: davidb (n=davidb@142.150.154.101)
# [23:10] <Philip`> I hope Google doesn't think my pages full of hundreds of kilobytes of URLs are spam
# [23:10] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
# [23:15] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host217-44-37-113.range217-44.btcentralplus.com) ("Partying in teh intarwebs")
# [23:15] * Quits: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@dhcp-0000036913-b5-5e.client.fas.harvard.edu)
# [23:16] <othermaciej> Hixie: are you around?
# [23:17] <othermaciej> Hixie: the 2007 version of the media queries spec does not appear to define processing for media queries that lack a media type
# [23:17] <othermaciej> (we'll probably fix our implementation anyway to do the likely expected thing of treating it as "all")
# [23:18] <annevk> The CSS WG agreed to http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-mediaqueries/ today
# [23:19] <othermaciej> annevk: seems to have the same bug
# [23:20] <othermaciej> "A media query is true if the media type of the media query matches the media type of the device where the user agent is running (as defined in the "Applies to" line), and all expressions in the media query are true. "
# [23:20] <othermaciej> doesn't say what to do when there is no media type
# [23:20] <annevk> 'A media query consists of a media type and one or more expressions involving media features. If the media type is omitted it is assumed to be ‘all’.'
# [23:20] <othermaciej> ah
# [23:21] <othermaciej> looks ok then
# [23:29] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-96958a03d92393bf) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
# [23:40] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@109.80-202-65.nextgentel.com) ("Ex-Chat")
# [23:41] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-4fcfb10e96363d43)
# [23:48] * Quits: akempgen (n=Alex@p5494F099.dip.t-dialin.net)
# [23:48] * Quits: heycam` (n=cam@124-168-100-30.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("bye")
# [23:49] <Hixie> othermaciej: in fact, opera does two completely separate layouts, one for the display and one for getComputedStyle and offsetTop et al, the latter of which makes links all match :link
# [23:50] <othermaciej> Hixie: good lord
# [23:50] <Hixie> othermaciej: however, even that doesn't solve the problem; i demonstrated a timing based attack where i could determine which links had been visited based on how long it took to style the document
# [23:50] <othermaciej> Hixie: do they actually keep two full render trees around?
# [23:50] <Hixie> no idea what the implementation is
# [23:53] <Lachy> the only way to truly address the issue is to treat all links as unvisited links in all places that selectors are used, including CSS, Selectors API, XBL, etc. So :visited would never match anything and :link would match all links
# [23:53] <Lachy> other than that, any attempt is really an exercise in futility
# [23:54] <annevk> Hixie, that was some time ago (it failed for my simple background:url(tracker?google) sample already)
# [23:54] <annevk> dropped*
# [23:54] <othermaciej> yeah, removing ways to custom-style visited links would do it, but would remove a useful feature
# [23:55] <annevk> maybe it's like ping=""
# [23:56] <annevk> usability win, potential small privacy loss
# [23:56] <Lachy> othermaciej, agreed. It would only really be useful to address the issue in selectors api, in implementations that don't use selectors for anything else
# [23:58] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.255.104.166)
# [23:58] <annevk> http://intertwingly.net/blog/2008/04/15/HTML5-SVG#c1208379416
# [23:58] * Joins: andersca_ (n=andersca@17.255.98.130)
# Session Close: Thu Apr 17 00:00:00 2008

The end :)