/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-04-17 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Thu Apr 17 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:02] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-4fcfb10e96363d43)
  4. # [00:02] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@17.203.15.172)
  5. # [00:03] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.172) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  6. # [00:04] * Joins: kingryan (n=ryan@c-24-5-77-167.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  7. # [00:07] * Quits: qwert666_ (n=qwert666@acar70.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) ("Leaving")
  8. # [00:08] * jgraham_ doesn't think looking for alt="" vs alt="some text" vs no alt without any contextual information is very useful at all
  9. # [00:08] * Quits: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.255.104.166)
  10. # [00:10] <roc> I talked to Doug Schepers, he has this requirement that copying an SVG subtree from an HTML document to a new XML document should produce well-formed SVG
  11. # [00:10] <roc> and another requirement that an HTML document containing only SVG nodes should be conforming if you change its type to XML
  12. # [00:11] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  13. # [00:11] <hsivonen> roc: copying on the source text level will be a futile exercise
  14. # [00:11] <roc> that's what he meant, yes
  15. # [00:11] <roc> and I agree it's a strange requirement
  16. # [00:11] <roc> but that's what the argument is about, I think
  17. # [00:11] <roc> whether those requirements make sense
  18. # [00:12] <annevk> i have a feeling it's also about preserving namespaces inside <metadata> and all...
  19. # [00:12] <hsivonen> yeah, that's the issue the SVG WG has. I think the issue is badly misguided.
  20. # [00:12] <hsivonen> annevk: I think that's a more legitimate concern
  21. # [00:12] <roc> I pointed out that the first requirement isn't even satisfied by XHTML
  22. # [00:12] <hsivonen> (misguided above referred to the copy paste thing--not metadata)
  23. # [00:12] <Lachy> "Sorry Maciej, I'm still going to decline to say how, but insist that it is possible. With Software, anything's possible" -- Travis Leithead
  24. # [00:13] <annevk> world peace!
  25. # [00:13] <jgraham_> Faster than light travel!
  26. # [00:13] <roc> halting problem!
  27. # [00:13] <annevk> :)
  28. # [00:13] <Lachy> of course, with software, anything's possible!
  29. # [00:13] <Dashiva> The halting problem is easy, but then you end up with a halting problem solver halting problem
  30. # [00:13] * Quits: andersca (n=andersca@nat/apple/x-9d3a62f1daab1f7d) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  31. # [00:13] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.181) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  32. # [00:14] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-f354e8a184bdfb83)
  33. # [00:14] <hsivonen> jgraham_: re: context: I have this image review tool up and running on my dev machine
  34. # [00:14] <hsivonen> jgraham_: and context would really be nice
  35. # [00:15] <jgraham_> hsivonen: The one you plan to deploy on validator.nu?
  36. # [00:15] <jgraham_> That sounds extremely cool
  37. # [00:15] <hsivonen> jgraham_: but I still think this is an order of magnitude better than just requiring alt
  38. # [00:15] <hsivonen> jgraham_: yes
  39. # [00:16] <jgraham_> It would be nice to just collect data from that but unfortunately selecting only sites that the authors validate leads to huge biases :)
  40. # [00:16] <jgraham_> (but I think it will be a great QA tool)
  41. # [00:17] <jgraham_> (and much much better at exerting the right kind of social pressure than just checking alt exists)
  42. # [00:20] * Quits: phsiao (n=shawn@nat/ibm/x-355f870b7a58af40) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  43. # [00:21] <Lachy> should :link match <link> elements too?
  44. # [00:23] <Lachy> HTML5 defines <link> with specific relationships as a hyperlink, and I can't see anything in Selectors to say it shouldn't
  45. # [00:24] <annevk> it thought they should match, yes
  46. # [00:25] <Lachy> I just tested it in WebKit, it didn't match them.
  47. # [00:25] * weinig_ is now known as weinig
  48. # [00:26] * Quits: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) ("ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)")
  49. # [00:26] <annevk> I'm not saying every implementation is compliant :)
  50. # [00:27] <Lachy> Mozilla does
  51. # [00:29] <Lachy> and Opera does too. So webkit is buggy
  52. # [00:29] <Philip`> And IE?
  53. # [00:31] <Lachy> haven't tested IE yet
  54. # [00:31] <Hixie> annevk: the background thing can be avoided by just fetching all backgrounds
  55. # [00:34] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  56. # [00:35] * Joins: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober)
  57. # [00:35] <Lachy> ah, it seems that IE8 implements :after, but not ::after
  58. # [00:37] <Lachy> I can't get any styles to apply to link elements in IE8 at all
  59. # [00:38] <Lachy> or IE7
  60. # [00:38] <Philip`> Fortunately nobody uses ::after
  61. # [00:38] <Lachy> I use ::after, since I like the different syntax for pseudo-classes and -elements
  62. # [00:38] <Lachy> although, I don't use it frequently
  63. # [00:39] <Philip`> Nobody except you uses it :-p
  64. # [00:39] <Philip`> Oh, and probably annevk
  65. # [00:45] <hsivonen> I never remember which type of pseudo can be ::, so : is safer.
  66. # [00:45] <Philip`> jgraham_: The [1] you linked to didn't seem to say how common alt="" was - am I just missing something there?
  67. # [00:46] <Lachy> all pseudo elements can use :: as of CSS3
  68. # [00:46] <Lachy> only a few of them can use :. The new ones introduced in CSS3 need ::
  69. # [00:47] <jgraham_> Philip`: No, I don't think it addresses that specific case. Maybe I should have made that clearer. But I think the criticisms would be the same even if they did look for alt="".
  70. # [00:47] <hsivonen> Lachy: how annoying
  71. # [00:47] <Hixie> the :: vs : distinction should have been there from the beginning
  72. # [00:48] <Philip`> What is the value in having the distinction?
  73. # [00:48] <jgraham_> Philip`: Presumably it is trivial for you to look for empty/whitespace alt vs alt with text
  74. # [00:49] * Joins: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@140.247.156.41)
  75. # [00:49] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.104.166)
  76. # [00:50] * Joins: mcarter (n=mcarter@ip-12-22-56-126.hqglobal.net)
  77. # [00:54] * Quits: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@140.247.156.41)
  78. # [00:59] <billmason> Hixie, thanks for the alt issue summary. The email volume and noise was so much, I'd given up knowing what exactly was being disputed in the first place....
  79. # [01:07] <Lachy> Philip`, IMHO, the advantage is that it helps make a clearer distinction between pseudo-elements and -classes, so authors can better understand the purpose of each
  80. # [01:07] <Hixie> so had everyone else, i think
  81. # [01:08] * Joins: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@dhcp-0000036913-b5-5e.client.fas.harvard.edu)
  82. # [01:11] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-f354e8a184bdfb83)
  83. # [01:11] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.172)
  84. # [01:15] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.104.166) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  85. # [01:15] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.104.166)
  86. # [01:16] <Philip`> jgraham_: Indeed, that's fairly easy to find
  87. # [01:17] <Philip`> I see 1104K <img>s with missing alt, 531K with alt="", 12K with whitespace alt, 703K with non-whitespace alt
  88. # [01:21] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.104.166) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  89. # [01:21] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.104.166)
  90. # [01:22] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@89.10.27.86)
  91. # [01:33] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-30068eb6d0e781d1)
  92. # [01:39] * Quits: andersca_ (n=andersca@17.255.98.130)
  93. # [01:41] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  94. # [01:51] * Joins: andersca (n=andersca@nat/apple/x-49351ac09e896048)
  95. # [01:54] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.172)
  96. # [02:05] * Joins: psa2 (n=yomode@71.93.19.66)
  97. # [02:05] * Quits: psa (n=yomode@71.93.19.66) (Remote closed the connection)
  98. # [02:19] * Joins: jgraham__ (n=jgraham@81-86-208-88.dsl.pipex.com)
  99. # [02:28] * Hixie laughs at Philip`'s e-mail
  100. # [02:32] * Philip` just hopes nobody complains that the four percentages add up to 101%
  101. # [02:33] * Quits: jgraham_ (n=jgraham@81-86-218-215.dsl.pipex.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  102. # [02:36] <Hixie> my dreamhost imap server is starting to be unbelievably slow
  103. # [02:36] <Hixie> maybe it is time for me to run my own imap server
  104. # [02:36] <Philip`> Maybe you have too many emails
  105. # [02:37] <Hixie> i've been getting rid of e-mails
  106. # [02:37] <Hixie> it has not helped
  107. # [02:37] <Hixie> it has gotten worse
  108. # [02:37] <Philip`> Maybe you have too few emails
  109. # [02:38] <Hixie> that seems unlikely as well
  110. # [02:45] <Dashiva> Maybe the server has started to pity you and seeks to shield you from further noise mail :)
  111. # [02:45] <Lachy> Hixie, since I moved to dreamhost, my IMAP has been incredibly slow too
  112. # [02:47] <Lachy> I assumed it was because of the trouble they were having with the "blingy" cluster that I'm on. It's improved a bit, but still slower than I'd like.
  113. # [02:47] <Hixie> i'm on looney
  114. # [02:47] <Hixie> i'm not affected by blingy
  115. # [02:47] <Hixie> i have sent a support request
  116. # [02:47] <Hixie> it certainly didn't use to be this slow
  117. # [02:50] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.203.15.181)
  118. # [02:51] * Quits: tor_ (n=tor@nat/ibm/x-82480d5aa2d07631)
  119. # [03:01] * psa2 is now known as psa
  120. # [03:02] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.104.166) (Nick collision from services.)
  121. # [03:02] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  122. # [03:15] <Dashiva> "Taking out the alt requirement will remove any pressure on flikr to fix this." -- because four years is such a short time
  123. # [03:22] * Quits: Camaban (n=alee@85-211-106-28.dyn.gotadsl.co.uk) ("zzzzzzzzzzzzz")
  124. # [03:26] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/data/alt-lengths.svg - the ylabel on that is now quite horribly long, but I can't think of anything conciser or less confusing :-/
  125. # [03:27] * Joins: kfish (n=conrad@61.194.21.25)
  126. # [03:27] <Hixie> heh
  127. # [03:28] <Philip`> Oh, the label falls off the top of the screen in Firefox - hooray for unpredictable text layout
  128. # [03:28] <Hixie> bit like the title of chapter 11 in the html5 spec
  129. # [03:29] <Dashiva> Philip`: What if you inverted the axes?
  130. # [03:29] <Philip`> Also the SVG fails to render most of its lines in Safari 3.0.something in Wine
  131. # [03:30] <Philip`> Dashiva: Then the curve would point upwards, which would be ugly, so I don't want to do that
  132. # [03:30] <Dashiva> Details :)
  133. # [03:30] <Philip`> and it wouldn't make the label text any shorter
  134. # [03:30] <Philip`> or any less confusing
  135. # [03:32] <Dashiva> Well, make it "Images with alt text at most this length" and explain which images are considered in a sentence below the graph?
  136. # [03:32] <Philip`> Um, I'm not quite sure how to add sentences below the graph
  137. # [03:32] <Philip`> (in Gnuplot)
  138. # [03:33] <Hixie> use html
  139. # [03:33] <Dashiva> Well, it could also be a box inside the plot, since it's mostly whitespace
  140. # [03:33] <Dashiva> And you might want to bring out the old logarithmic y scale, like you did for content-type. It's awfully close to 100% most of the time :)
  141. # [03:33] <Philip`> Hixie: Then I'd need at least two files, because I can't put SVG inline in HTML, and it would become a Big Project instead of just throwing up a file generated by the tool
  142. # [03:34] <Philip`> Dashiva: Putting a box inside the plot sounds even harder :-p
  143. # [03:34] <Philip`> I'd have to read the documentation, which is never easy
  144. # [03:35] <Dashiva> Philip`: How about generating it without the box and adding the box by hand? Just a textbox should be not too hard
  145. # [03:35] <Hixie> xhtml baby
  146. # [03:35] <Philip`> Dashiva: It's meant to be close to 100% all the time, since it's just indicating that pretty much all alt text is below that length, and nobody really cares about the details of precisely how many pages use 128 vs 256 characters of alt text
  147. # [03:36] <Philip`> or at least that's my excuse
  148. # [03:36] <Philip`> Also log scales going up to 100 are ugly, because 100 doesn't have nice roots
  149. # [03:36] <Philip`> (A 0,10,100 scale would be rubbish, and anything else will have fractions)
  150. # [03:36] <Dashiva> You do the inverse, 100 - x
  151. # [03:37] <Philip`> Anyway, I'm too lazy to even rename my file from charsets.gnuplot to alt-length.gnuplot, so I don't entirely feel like bothering with it too much :-p
  152. # [03:38] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-30068eb6d0e781d1)
  153. # [03:38] <Philip`> Dashiva: Adding things by hand is a pain because I'd have to re-add them by hand every time I regenerated the graph
  154. # [03:39] <Philip`> and also I'd have to read the SVG documentation to work out how to do it
  155. # [03:39] <Dashiva> Just google for svg text box, and make a script to sed the code block into the result file
  156. # [03:39] <Dashiva> Yeah, yeah, I know. Not going to happen :)
  157. # [03:39] <Philip`> Dashiva: That sounds suspiciously like hard work ;-)
  158. # [03:40] * Quits: doublec (n=chris@li5-223.members.linode.com) ("Terminated with extreme prejudice - dircproxy 1.0.5")
  159. # [03:40] * Joins: doublec (n=ChrisDou@li5-223.members.linode.com)
  160. # [03:41] <Philip`> s/0,10,100/1,10,100/
  161. # [03:42] <othermaciej> log scales should obviously be marked with powers of 2
  162. # [03:42] * Philip` hopes everybody's monitor is the same size as his, else the graph won't fit very well
  163. # [03:42] <othermaciej> what kind of loser would want powers of 10?
  164. # [03:42] <othermaciej> maybe a physicist or something
  165. # [03:43] <othermaciej> but we are computer scientists here
  166. # [03:43] <Philip`> othermaciej: When the range is 0..100, it's ugly if the scale doesn't end on 100
  167. # [03:43] <Philip`> and 2 doesn't divide into 100 much
  168. # [03:44] <othermaciej> 128 is close enough
  169. # [03:44] <othermaciej> gotta quit for a bit, brb
  170. # [03:44] <Philip`> Makes it impossible for people to see that the curve flattens out at very nearly 100%, if the only markings are 64 and 128
  171. # [03:45] <Philip`> and I can't add a horizontal line at 100% because I'd have to learn more Gnuplot
  172. # [03:45] * Joins: csarven_ (n=nevrasc@modemcable130.251-202-24.mc.videotron.ca)
  173. # [03:46] * Quits: csarven (n=csarven@on-irc.csarven.ca) (Nick collision from services.)
  174. # [03:46] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.181)
  175. # [03:46] * csarven_ is now known as csarven
  176. # [03:50] <Lachy> given all this discussion about how trivial it is to perform history theft using :visited with various techniques, does anyone know if a real site has ever exploited it?
  177. # [03:55] <roc> I don't know of any such case
  178. # [03:55] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.181)
  179. # [03:59] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@static-68-236-184-75.ny325.east.verizon.net)
  180. # [04:02] * Quits: kfish (n=conrad@61.194.21.25) ("Pike!")
  181. # [04:18] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.181)
  182. # [04:21] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au)
  183. # [04:25] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@99-203-185-63.area2.spcsdns.net)
  184. # [04:26] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@99-203-185-63.area2.spcsdns.net) (Client Quit)
  185. # [04:42] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.181)
  186. # [04:58] * Joins: Thezilch (n=fuz007@cpe-76-170-22-23.socal.res.rr.com)
  187. # [05:07] * Quits: andersca (n=andersca@nat/apple/x-49351ac09e896048) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  188. # [05:28] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.172)
  189. # [05:32] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-67-160-251-228.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  190. # [05:36] * cgriego_ is now known as cgriego
  191. # [05:44] * Quits: csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable130.251-202-24.mc.videotron.ca) ("http://www.csarven.ca/")
  192. # [05:48] <Hixie> Lachy: http://damowmow.com/playground/backups/CSS%20Tests/DOM/isVisited.html
  193. # [05:57] * Joins: tor (n=tor@cpe-24-28-29-26.austin.res.rr.com)
  194. # [06:16] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-67-160-251-228.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  195. # [06:22] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.181) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  196. # [06:27] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-67-160-251-228.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  197. # [06:32] * Joins: MacDome (n=eric@adsl-76-203-75-9.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  198. # [06:33] * Quits: MacDome (n=eric@adsl-76-203-75-9.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Client Quit)
  199. # [06:34] * Joins: MacDome (n=eric@adsl-76-203-75-9.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  200. # [06:56] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-67-160-251-228.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  201. # [07:00] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-67-160-251-228.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  202. # [07:16] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  203. # [07:17] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-67-160-251-228.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  204. # [07:17] * Quits: kingryan (n=ryan@c-24-5-77-167.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  205. # [07:18] * Joins: kingryan (n=ryan@c-24-5-77-167.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  206. # [07:25] * Quits: MacDome (n=eric@adsl-76-203-75-9.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  207. # [07:33] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au) ("bye")
  208. # [07:42] * Joins: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  209. # [07:47] * Joins: MacDome (n=eric@c-24-130-11-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  210. # [07:51] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-98-207-134-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  211. # [08:07] * Quits: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  212. # [08:16] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@124-168-100-30.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  213. # [08:21] * Quits: tor (n=tor@cpe-24-28-29-26.austin.res.rr.com) (Nick collision from services.)
  214. # [08:28] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  215. # [08:32] * Joins: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  216. # [08:48] <annevk> Hixie, yeah, loading all backgrounds could work, but that's pretty bad on some sites
  217. # [08:49] <Hixie> so is rendering the site twice
  218. # [08:49] <Hixie> but opera did that!
  219. # [08:51] <MikeSmith> I think the rendering-twice thing is also something that Android Webkit does
  220. # [08:52] <MikeSmith> they call it "two-pass layout"
  221. # [08:52] <MikeSmith> I think there may be other browsers on mobile devices that still do that
  222. # [08:54] <annevk> Hixie, yeah, silly
  223. # [08:54] <othermaciej> that's totally different
  224. # [08:55] <othermaciej> Android doesn't build two versions of the layout at once
  225. # [08:55] <othermaciej> they force early layout before loading subresources, to show unstyled partial content as fast as possible
  226. # [08:55] <othermaciej> that's kind of similar to normal incremental layout during loading
  227. # [08:55] <othermaciej> dbaron's set of restrictions is the only thing I heard that is even close to working
  228. # [08:56] <MikeSmith> ah, Ok
  229. # [08:56] <othermaciej> and the background-color aspect seems so crippled as to be useless
  230. # [08:56] <othermaciej> and the color aspect might still be usable for timing attacks
  231. # [08:56] <othermaciej> trying to solve this problem is a pretty quixotic mission
  232. # [08:56] <annevk> om my god, why am i involved in a debate that's discussing fundamentally changing the way text/html works
  233. # [08:56] <othermaciej> also I am sick of Microsoft people saying "we have a way to do this" without saying how
  234. # [08:57] <othermaciej> annevk: well, at least initially, it was reasonable to assume the guy might not know the reasons that is not feasible
  235. # [08:57] <annevk> and of their: "We'll review it by next week!"
  236. # [08:57] <othermaciej> now that he knows, and is still arguing, I am not sure you need to continue
  237. # [08:57] <annevk> yeah, it seems other people took over anyway
  238. # [09:00] <annevk> hmm, SVG WG is starting from scratch again with SVG in text/html
  239. # [09:01] <othermaciej> awesome
  240. # [09:01] <othermaciej> I hope they will be able to bring their expertise in HTML parsing to bear
  241. # [09:01] <heycam> annevk, i want people to lay out their requirements/arguments so that it's clear where people are coming from
  242. # [09:04] * Quits: jruderman_ (n=jruderma@c-67-180-174-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  243. # [09:05] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-174-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  244. # [09:05] <Hixie> i'm looking forward to seeing detailed proposals that fit in our constraints
  245. # [09:05] <Hixie> because frankly, if anyone can come up with something better, that would be awesome
  246. # [09:06] <heycam> Hixie, well i hope so. obviously you know much more about html parsing than anyone on the svg wg, though, and there'll be constraints that we're unaware of.
  247. # [09:07] <Hixie> iirc my reply to the svgwg covered the most salient ones
  248. # [09:07] <heycam> which reply?
  249. # [09:07] <heycam> the massive mail?
  250. # [09:08] <Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Apr/0407.html
  251. # [09:08] <Hixie> hm i guess i didn't give examples
  252. # [09:09] <heycam> yeah
  253. # [09:09] <Hixie> the massive mail gave more detail, including a bunch of urls worth studying
  254. # [09:09] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@static-68-236-184-75.ny325.east.verizon.net)
  255. # [09:09] <Hixie> my two favourites being:
  256. # [09:09] <Hixie> http://www.cocopahrv.com/map.html
  257. # [09:09] <Hixie> http://www.laroseweb.com/calcs/fans.php
  258. # [09:10] <heycam> that cocopahrv one is awesome, using an <img> inside the <svg> there :)
  259. # [09:12] <heycam> ok, so you would say that the tightest constraint is existing weirdo documents that use svg element names and expect their behaviour not to change
  260. # [09:12] <heycam> ?
  261. # [09:12] <Hixie> my favourite page of all time though is this one:
  262. # [09:12] <Hixie> http://puysl.com/view.htm
  263. # [09:12] <Hixie> that page is the epitomy of fail
  264. # [09:12] <Hixie> heycam: or at least, not to be significantly worse, yeah
  265. # [09:13] <Hixie> heycam: i put up with "shows a new blank space"
  266. # [09:13] <Hixie> heycam: in my proposal
  267. # [09:13] <heycam> given the resources you have in searching existing pages which we don't have, i expect that you'll have to knock back things we suggest with "but this'll break so-and-so page".
  268. # [09:14] <Hixie> yeah
  269. # [09:14] <Hixie> unfortunately doing those searches isn't exactly trivial
  270. # [09:14] <hsivonen> Hixie: your DOM link visitedness checker claims everything is visited in Firefox 3
  271. # [09:14] <Hixie> hsivonen: oops
  272. # [09:14] <Hixie> hsivonen: well i haven't touched it since what, 2001?
  273. # [09:14] <Hixie> hsivonen: i just found it earlier today
  274. # [09:14] <Hixie> hsivonen: the url should be a giveaway as to its crustiness :-)
  275. # [09:16] <Hixie> i think i should print the source of http://puysl.com/view.htm and frame it
  276. # [09:16] <hsivonen> jf seems to be fixated on enforcement and placing the blame instead of improving accessibility
  277. # [09:16] <othermaciej> hsivonen: why are you so opposed to human rights?
  278. # [09:16] <Hixie> http://albren.blogspot.com/2007/02/l05-traductor.html is pretty awesome too
  279. # [09:17] <othermaciej> heycam: I'm curious if the SVG WG has identified specific problems with the approach that was in the spec
  280. # [09:17] <othermaciej> or if they plan to review it and identify specific problems
  281. # [09:19] <heycam> othermaciej, i do want to review the approach that was in the spec, and i don't know if the other WG members have looked at those parser changes, but i think mostly are reacting to high level summaries of the changes
  282. # [09:19] * Quits: MacDome (n=eric@c-24-130-11-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  283. # [09:20] <heycam> i will make hixie's mega-mail required reading :)
  284. # [09:21] <heycam> i have a feeling that much of it comes down to "i don't want svg to have two syntaxes" vs "having an html-like syntax for svg as well is no problem"
  285. # [09:21] <heycam> (where that first claim is rooted in worries about existing tools)
  286. # [09:21] <heycam> (existing tools supporting on the XML syntax, that is)
  287. # [09:23] <hsivonen> heycam: I think the two syntaxes argument is totally misguided, since putting SVG in a text/html wrapper defeats existing tool ingest anyway
  288. # [09:23] <hsivonen> heycam: if you want to round trip your own stuff by copy and paste, you can
  289. # [09:23] <heycam> hsivonen, your own stuff, yes. the concern seems to be arbitrary svg-in-html content that you want to grab out and edit in inkscape, for example.
  290. # [09:23] <heycam> so not round tripping per se
  291. # [09:24] <hsivonen> heycam: if you want to extract someone else's content by copy and paste, doing it from the source instead of doing it from a reserialization isn't going to work
  292. # [09:24] <Hixie> if we put svg in text/html, and we allow that the pages cited above must continue to work, we are basically forced to conclude that we have to have non-draconian error recovery in the parser for the svg in text/html
  293. # [09:24] <Hixie> at which point, we have a new syntax
  294. # [09:24] <Hixie> i don't see any way around that
  295. # [09:24] <hsivonen> because a single well-formedness error would amount to copy protection
  296. # [09:24] <Hixie> so i don't see how to prevent their from being two syntaxes
  297. # [09:24] <Hixie> but like i said
  298. # [09:24] <heycam> hsivonen, that is obviously true, if the svg-in-html syntax isn't also xml syntax
  299. # [09:24] <Hixie> if the svgwg can come up with some magical way to do that, i'm all ears!
  300. # [09:25] <hsivonen> heycam: it won't be XML out there if text/html is non-Draconian
  301. # [09:25] <hsivonen> heycam: and text/html (even parts of it) cannot become Draconian without Breaking the Web
  302. # [09:25] <hsivonen> and having to Break the Web is a pretty serious deterrent from browser implementations
  303. # [09:25] <Hixie> we _already_ have svg in text/html that isn't parsable as image/svg+xml
  304. # [09:25] <heycam> hsivonen, only if it's defined that way. ok, the "breaking the web" part might stop that, though.
  305. # [09:26] <Hixie> that battle has already been lost, and it hasn't even begun
  306. # [09:26] <heycam> Hixie, but pages rely on that not rendering as svg, right?
  307. # [09:27] <hsivonen> so to me it seems that the SVG WG is either seeking to make its mark (bad) or hasn't come to terms with the Breaking the Web aspect of trying to put Draconian islands in text/html (bad as well)
  308. # [09:27] <Hixie> heycam: well, right now they do, yeah, though those i looked at could deal with them being rendered as 300x150 blank spaces (which is what would happen for most of them in my proposal)
  309. # [09:27] <othermaciej> adding draconian error handling that would break existing pages is indeed kryptonite for implementors
  310. # [09:27] <heycam> the issue would then be: if there's svg in text/html that IS parseable as image/svg+xml, and pages rely on that not rendering, then you have a problem in defining the svg-in-html syntax as xml.
  311. # [09:27] <Hixie> heycam: but anything that doesn't look like true svg isn't going to be svg either
  312. # [09:27] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  313. # [09:27] <Hixie> heycam: i don't follow what you just said
  314. # [09:28] <heycam> hsivonen, it could be that the "not breaking the web" requirement isn't properly understood by the wg
  315. # [09:28] <heycam> certainly i don't understand all of the constraints that hixie alluded to earlier, though the general problem i get
  316. # [09:30] <Hixie> well the constraints boil down to the pages i listed not breaking (where i accept some extra spacing, but not, say, an error message, or dropping half the page)
  317. # [09:30] <heycam> Hixie, is that list complete/representative?
  318. # [09:30] <heycam> of the problems that any workable solution would need to avoid?
  319. # [09:30] <Hixie> (oh that and ideally we should use the same mechanism for mathml and svg, and there are text/html pages out there that have raw mathml in them that would look great in the current proposal)
  320. # [09:31] <Hixie> heycam: certainly not complete
  321. # [09:31] <Hixie> heycam: probably representative, though, yeah
  322. # [09:31] <heycam> Hixie, ok. i hope that can reduce the number of iterations then.
  323. # [09:31] <Hixie> heycam: or at least, probably shows the extreme cases that, if dealt with, will mean the proposal is likely sound
  324. # [09:34] <annevk> I'd expect Doug to push for his <container> <fallback /> <svg /> </container> thingie
  325. # [09:35] <Hixie> the fallback idea doesn't work
  326. # [09:35] <heycam> annevk, the issue with that proposal is that it doesn't fall back in current UAs, yes?
  327. # [09:35] <Hixie> and <container> breaks in the copy/paste case
  328. # [09:35] <heycam> Hixie, why?
  329. # [09:35] <Hixie> heycam: two other constraints that are probably relevant:
  330. # [09:36] <heycam> (why can't the copy-and-paster just grab out the <svg> fragment from inside the <container>, that is?)
  331. # [09:36] <Hixie> first one is the one i mentioned earlier, namely that i'd like mathml and svg to use the same model, and there are pages out there that are basically text/html with mathml inline that would work great, so there's a strong motivation to use compatible syntax
  332. # [09:36] <Hixie> the other (and this is the answer to hte copy/paste thing) is more complex
  333. # [09:37] <Hixie> authors have, for some reason i haven't understood but which i have seen a _lot_ on the web, a weird way of working
  334. # [09:37] <Hixie> which consists of, sometimes, copying seemingly random chunks of pages
  335. # [09:37] <Hixie> and pasting them into their own
  336. # [09:38] <hsivonen> heycam: <container> sucks big time when there's a start tag near the top of the page and no end tag
  337. # [09:38] <hsivonen> <container> is also awful language design when we already have a solution without such cruft
  338. # [09:38] <othermaciej> is <container> supposed to be an island of draconian XML parsing?
  339. # [09:38] <Hixie> they will even copy stuff from pages where the stuff does something in one browser (e.g. firefox when that page is sent as xml), and paste them into their page where it does nothing (e.g. they're using IE)
  340. # [09:38] <annevk> othermaciej, I think so, yes
  341. # [09:39] <Hixie> for example, look at http://www.cocopahrv.com/map.html
  342. # [09:39] <othermaciej> well, I suppose if he finds a tagname that is actually for practical purposes unused, that might avoid breaking existing content
  343. # [09:39] <Hixie> or http://www.laroseweb.com/calcs/fans.php
  344. # [09:39] <othermaciej> but introducing draconianness to text/html misses the point of using text/html in the first place
  345. # [09:40] <heycam> othermaciej, so yeah... if the syntax can't be draconian in text/html, then the syntax must be different from xml. and if it's different, then it's impossible to make it always copy-and-pastable to inkscape.
  346. # [09:40] <heycam> so the requirements clash
  347. # [09:41] <Hixie> othermaciej: it doesn't work. even if the tag is unused now, in the time between UA 1 implementing the feature (and leading edge users using it) nad UA 4 implementing the feature (and thus all users having it) there will be millions of crackpot authors who copy and paste content from good authors targetting UA1 and expose that content to UA4
  348. # [09:41] <Hixie> thus creating a pile of "legacy" content _after_ we define the syntax
  349. # [09:41] <heycam> Hixie, so why doesn't that apply to any solution that's though up? or any new html5 feature?
  350. # [09:41] <Hixie> this has already happened with svg and mathml in text/html, e.g. http://www.cocopahrv.com/map.html and http://www.laroseweb.com/calcs/fans.php
  351. # [09:42] <othermaciej> Hixie: well, I'm not a huge fan of draconianness independent of the Suport Existing Content constraint
  352. # [09:42] <Hixie> heycam: my proposal bails out of the new parse mode when it sees an html tag
  353. # [09:42] <othermaciej> heycam: I guess I don't understand the goal of putting SVG in text/html if draconian parsing is then required
  354. # [09:42] <heycam> othermaciej, ok
  355. # [09:42] <Hixie> heycam: and for the other new features, the features are simple enough that if this becomes a problem we can fix it relatively cheaply
  356. # [09:42] <othermaciej> if you want draconian parsing, you may as well use application/xhtml+xml
  357. # [09:43] <othermaciej> that will work fine in all current UAs that support SVG
  358. # [09:43] <annevk> (If the motivation for text/html in part is because of it's non-draconian nature having draconian handling for <foreignObject> blocks for instance doesn't make sense.)
  359. # [09:43] <othermaciej> and in the UA that doesn't, you won't get the draconian parsing in text/html with any more likelihood than you will get SVG
  360. # [09:44] <heycam> i wonder if there is a subset of authors who like the non-draconianness of html but are happy with svg syntax
  361. # [09:44] <Hixie> i do agree with othermaciej's point about not wanting draconian parsing in text/html on principle
  362. # [09:44] <Hixie> but it effectively doesn't matter given the technical problem with having draconian parsing in text/html
  363. # [09:44] <heycam> Hixie, what's the technical problem?
  364. # [09:44] <othermaciej> authors who would want draconian SVG parsing inside non-draconian HTML?
  365. # [09:45] <heycam> avoiding losing the rest of the page? (for existing content that opens an <svg> and doesn't close it, say?)
  366. # [09:45] <othermaciej> heycam: Hixie is right that crazy authors blindly copy random things
  367. # [09:45] <othermaciej> and test them only in browsers where they have no effect, but keep them anyway
  368. # [09:45] <Hixie> heycam: the one i described to you above from "the other (and" to "using IE)" and then explained to othermaciej again from "it doesn't work" to "this has already happened".
  369. # [09:46] <heycam> so basically because of that (authors randomally copying things), any syntax added to html MUST be non-draconian?
  370. # [09:46] <hsivonen> heycam: yes
  371. # [09:46] <Hixie> pretty much
  372. # [09:46] <Hixie> as far as i can tell
  373. # [09:46] <Hixie> i haven't formally proved that one implies the other, but i can't think of a solution where that's not the case
  374. # [09:46] <othermaciej> I'm not sure that phenomenon is quite as strong as Hixie thinks it is, but he has more knowledge on this subject and better judgment than me on such matters most of the time
  375. # [09:47] <Hixie> well, like i said, there are examples of this already today for both svg and mathml in text/html, and we haven't even shipped the first UA that supports that yet
  376. # [09:47] <Hixie> so
  377. # [09:47] <othermaciej> notwithstanding that, I can't think of anyone who would have a good reason to want draconian SVG in tolerant HTML
  378. # [09:47] <hsivonen> aaargh. William Hammond is suggesting the reparse with another parser approach
  379. # [09:47] <othermaciej> hsivonen: that's an old chestnut :-)
  380. # [09:47] <Hixie> hsivonen: if you reply please take whatwg off the cc list
  381. # [09:47] <hsivonen> we should have so kind of list of old bad ideas
  382. # [09:48] <heycam> othermaciej, i don't know that they would necessarily want the draconian svg, but they may want to avoid creating a second syntax
  383. # [09:48] <hsivonen> s/so/some/
  384. # [09:48] <Hixie> i'm annoyed at half the thread being cc'ed to the whatwg list and the other half being caught in the moderation queue
  385. # [09:48] <othermaciej> heycam: they can already get the first syntax by using SVG only in XHTML
  386. # [09:48] <heycam> hsivonen, what's the issue with reparsing? that it blocks loading the whole rest of the page?
  387. # [09:49] <othermaciej> If they want to deny other people the ability to use a second syntax, I think the only solution is not to add SVG to HTML, because adding draconian SVG to HTML would defeat the use case of the people who want it pretty strongly
  388. # [09:49] <heycam> othermaciej, right, but they may be arguing against the non-draconian syntax in html to avoid creating a second syntax
  389. # [09:49] <Hixie> heycam: as i said at the start of this conversation, i see no way to include svg in text/html that doesn't forceably imply a new syntax, even in my wildest dreams
  390. # [09:49] <heycam> othermaciej, yeah
  391. # [09:49] <othermaciej> as one of the people who wants SVG in HTML, this makes me sad
  392. # [09:50] <hsivonen> heycam: it causes (potentially) scripts to run differently, you can't back out the side effects of scripts that already ran, it makes a small error cause non-obvious behavior totally elsewhere, it makes the prospective new browser slower than the legacy it is competing with
  393. # [09:50] <othermaciej> especially since the only syntax difference of substance is error handling
  394. # [09:50] <heycam> othermaciej, what makes you sad? the current solution being removed from the spec? or that a second syntax is needed?
  395. # [09:50] <heycam> hsivonen, ok
  396. # [09:51] <othermaciej> no, it makes me sad that some people want to deny me the ability to use a different syntax for SVG
  397. # [09:51] <heycam> othermaciej, ah
  398. # [09:51] <othermaciej> I wonder if the SVG WG has contacted the Efficient XML WG yet
  399. # [09:51] <heycam> :)
  400. # [09:51] <annevk> hmm, list of bad ideas: reparsing, href= on every element, draconian parser in text/html, namespaces in text/html
  401. # [09:51] <othermaciej> since they too have created a different syntax for SVG (a binary one, at that)
  402. # [09:52] <heycam> othermaciej, except nobody on the web uses that binary stuff
  403. # [09:52] <heycam> whereas this svg-in-html syntax would be used on the web
  404. # [09:52] <annevk> To be fair, Efficient XML doesn't constrain SVG
  405. # [09:52] <othermaciej> ah, so only a syntax that people might actually be *used* is a worry
  406. # [09:52] <heycam> othermaciej, i think so (if one's argument is that a second syntax is harmful)
  407. # [09:53] <othermaciej> then let's make the syntax bad enough that no one will want to use or implement it
  408. # [09:53] <annevk> Then again, using namespaces in HTML was already not possible and using <font> seems not necessary for small embedded graphics. (I hope people are not going to embed mebibytes of SVG!)
  409. # [09:53] * othermaciej twitches at the mention of SVG fonts
  410. # [09:53] <heycam> annevk, what was the reason for <font> not working?
  411. # [09:54] <annevk> heycam, <font> is one of the HTML elements that lets you escape from the foreign lands
  412. # [09:54] <annevk> (with a parse error, alas)
  413. # [09:54] <othermaciej> annevk: my impression is that the concern is more about the additional looseness, not the additional constraints
  414. # [09:54] <heycam> so there were pages that used <font> in the html sense inside an <svg>-like fragment?
  415. # [09:54] <othermaciej> (that HTML documents might have inline SVG that you can't copy and paste into an SVG-only tool)
  416. # [09:54] <Hixie> any page using <font> in text/html today is using it in the html sense
  417. # [09:55] <Hixie> by definition
  418. # [09:55] <heycam> Hixie, right
  419. # [09:55] <heycam> because it would act like an html <font>
  420. # [09:55] <heycam> so there were pages that did have a <font> inside an svg fragment?
  421. # [09:55] <heycam> in your studies?
  422. # [09:55] <annevk> Hixie, well, the same could be said about <style> or <script>...
  423. # [09:55] <Hixie> yeah
  424. # [09:55] <Hixie> it was one of the highest occurances
  425. # [09:55] <heycam> annevk, at least style/script aren't too different though
  426. # [09:55] <Hixie> annevk: yeah but i didn't find any of those iirc
  427. # [09:56] <annevk> heycam, true, though I'm not entirely sure whether I like the different parsing model for them when used inside <svg> (or <math> for that matter)
  428. # [09:56] <Hixie> oh actually it looks like i did find some script and style
  429. # [09:56] <Hixie> i just decided to ignore those after looking at a sample of them
  430. # [09:56] <heycam> annevk, difference being CDATA 'n stuff?
  431. # [09:56] <Hixie> and deciding it would work either way
  432. # [09:56] <Hixie> i agree that it's a bit dodgy
  433. # [09:57] <Hixie> but we need impl experience for that one
  434. # [09:57] <Hixie> <font> iirc was very common (relatively speaking)
  435. # [09:57] <annevk> heycam, yes, <svg><script> alert("<foo/>") </scrip></svg> for instance...
  436. # [09:57] <heycam> annevk, ah
  437. # [09:57] <othermaciej> <script src> wouldn't work if treated as an svg script
  438. # [09:57] <Hixie> i should look for just that
  439. # [09:57] <heycam> othermaciej, ah right i forgot about src vs xlink:href
  440. # [09:58] <Hixie> i do find it annoying that svg did things differently to html
  441. # [09:58] * annevk wonders when the SVG finally kills xlink:href
  442. # [09:58] <Hixie> the whole evt vs event thing for example
  443. # [09:58] <Hixie> or reusing tag names
  444. # [09:58] <othermaciej> well, SVG 1.2 semi-quasi fixed evt vs event
  445. # [09:58] <Hixie> the mathml wg did an amazing job of avoiding tag name clashes
  446. # [09:59] <heycam> Hixie, probably the idea that svg was in a different namespace quelled concerns about clashes with html
  447. # [09:59] <Hixie> out of their hundreds of tag names, they had one clash, and that one was with a non-existent tag name most people don't know about (<image>) and they've already offered to fix it
  448. # [09:59] <othermaciej> I think that was done out of ignorance, not willful creation of conflict
  449. # [09:59] <Hixie> othermaciej: sure, but at least one other group went out of its way not to do that
  450. # [09:59] <othermaciej> actually they even thought evt was mandated for some weird imaginary reason
  451. # [09:59] <annevk> Hixie, yes, but <image> is not a problem as it's not on the list of HTML elements...
  452. # [09:59] <heycam> othermaciej, right i'd imagine so. if the design up front was to have svg inline in html, well, things might've been different.
  453. # [09:59] <annevk> Hixie, or was that an oversight?
  454. # [09:59] <othermaciej> SVG WG could have actively tried to align with HTML from earlier on
  455. # [10:00] <othermaciej> I give them some credit for being more open to doing so now
  456. # [10:00] <heycam> i don't think any new svg element names have been minted since the new html wg has been around
  457. # [10:00] <Hixie> annevk: actually i have no idea if it's a problem, my parser does the image->img thing so i have no data on it :-/
  458. # [10:00] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  459. # [10:01] <Hixie> yeah the htmlwg has been the one creating clashes
  460. # [10:01] <Hixie> with <video>, e.g.
  461. # [10:01] * Quits: Thezilch (n=fuz007@cpe-76-170-22-23.socal.res.rr.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  462. # [10:01] <Hixie> go me
  463. # [10:01] <heycam> :)
  464. # [10:02] <othermaciej> you could rename them hvideo and haudio
  465. # [10:02] <Hixie> i could...
  466. # [10:02] <othermaciej> I would hate you if you did
  467. # [10:02] <othermaciej> but you could do it
  468. # [10:02] <Hixie> not gonna :-)
  469. # [10:02] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-168-16.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  470. # [10:04] <heycam> <font> is non-conforming, yes?
  471. # [10:05] <annevk> it is currently
  472. # [10:06] <hsivonen> huh? <font> became non-conforming?
  473. # [10:07] <hsivonen> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-font
  474. # [10:07] <annevk> "Conformance checkers must consider this element to be non-conforming if it is used on a page lacking the WYSIWYG signature."
  475. # [10:07] * Joins: qwert666 (n=qwert666@acar70.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)
  476. # [10:08] * Quits: sverrej (n=sverrej@89.10.27.86) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  477. # [10:09] <othermaciej> it's conformance status is not super relevant to the SVG-in-HTML issue
  478. # [10:09] <heycam> othermaciej, no
  479. # [10:10] <heycam> i just wanted to say something like "despite it being non-conforming, blah blah"
  480. # [10:12] <hsivonen> Hixie: can I assume that if you spec meta content-language, it will only apply if in "the head element"?
  481. # [10:12] <Hixie> how do you mean?
  482. # [10:13] <Hixie> heycam: <font>'s conforming status is up in the air, much like style=""'s
  483. # [10:13] <Hixie> heycam: i might just keep <font> around as a hook for style="" as separate from <span>
  484. # [10:13] <hsivonen> Hixie: presumably meta content-language would insert a language tag between HTTP and the root element lang in the language inheritance chain
  485. # [10:13] * heycam likes style="", and doesn't think it's any worse than introducing a new CSS class just to handle that element's styling
  486. # [10:13] <hsivonen> Hixie: like base inserts the base URI between HTTP and the root element xml:base
  487. # [10:14] <Hixie> hsivonen: presumably, yes
  488. # [10:14] <hsivonen> Hixie: thanks
  489. # [10:14] <Hixie> hsivonen: though the content-language header takes multiple languages and has semantics that aren't really the same as lang="" and xml:lang="".
  490. # [10:14] <Hixie> hsivonen: so it's unclear what it should really do
  491. # [10:14] <hsivonen> ouch
  492. # [10:15] <Hixie> heycam: it's not especially worse. that's still bad. :-)
  493. # [10:15] <hsivonen> when it does have a single value, it seems to be used as an attempt to declare the main language of the document, though
  494. # [10:15] <Hixie> that does appear to be the practice, yes
  495. # [10:15] <hsivonen> IIRC, FrontPage stores the spell checker language there
  496. # [10:15] <Hixie> which is mostly (though not entirely) compatible with its defined meaning
  497. # [10:16] <hsivonen> the FrontPage behavior is good in the sense that the metadata has a visible effect
  498. # [10:17] * Quits: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) ("ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)")
  499. # [10:17] * heycam goes to have some dinner, is convinced that there's no solution to the svg-in-html issue that handles everyone's (conflicting) requirements
  500. # [10:18] <Hixie> did someone just blog about acid3
  501. # [10:18] <Hixie> heycam: join the club :-)
  502. # [10:21] <heycam> Hixie's spidey-sense^Wgoogle-sense just tingled...
  503. # [10:22] * heycam really /aways...
  504. # [10:25] <Hixie> oh i just asked that because my server's status page just swamped with acid3-related requests and my server's usage spiked painfully
  505. # [10:25] <othermaciej> I just saw a blog post that may indicate time travel
  506. # [10:25] <othermaciej> because apparently Apple just release Safari 1.1.1
  507. # [10:30] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  508. # [10:31] <hsivonen> Hixie: you need to host your site in an elastic cloud :-)
  509. # [10:32] <Hixie> seems china just discovered acid3
  510. # [10:33] <Hixie> oh i see
  511. # [10:33] <Hixie> the wasp thinks webkit and opera pass acid3
  512. # [10:33] <annevk> it penetrated the big firewall? :)
  513. # [10:33] <Hixie> sigh
  514. # [10:36] <annevk> seems plenty of people pointed that out already
  515. # [10:36] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  516. # [10:38] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@ti200710a340-2662.bb.online.no) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  517. # [10:38] <annevk> Damn't, i want my edit attribute!
  518. # [10:40] * hsivonen hopes annevk was being sarcastic about XSD describing semantics
  519. # [10:40] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  520. # [10:40] <Hixie> who knows
  521. # [10:40] <Hixie> he was young back then
  522. # [10:40] <Hixie> :-D
  523. # [10:41] <Hixie> speaking of sarcasm, the forms task force sure is making a lot of progress
  524. # [10:43] <Hixie> i wish all of these folders could be dealt with as easily as ins/del
  525. # [10:44] * Joins: sydbarrett74 (n=sydbarre@pool-72-84-200-41.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net)
  526. # [10:44] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@58.157.21.205) ("Less talk, more pimp walk.")
  527. # [10:44] * Quits: sydbarrett74 (n=sydbarre@pool-72-84-200-41.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  528. # [10:45] * Joins: sydbarrett74 (n=sydbarre@pool-72-84-200-41.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net)
  529. # [10:45] <sydbarrett74> hi could someone tell me what channel is for libxml discussions?
  530. # [10:45] * Quits: sydbarrett74 (n=sydbarre@pool-72-84-200-41.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  531. # [10:47] <hsivonen> Hixie: I presume the first content-language will count
  532. # [10:47] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  533. # [10:47] <Hixie> no idea
  534. # [10:47] <hsivonen> Hixie: but will the absence of the content attribute make the tag count as a failed attempt?
  535. # [10:47] <Hixie> no idea either
  536. # [10:48] <Hixie> however, your suggestions gain a lot of likelihood of turning into reality if you're the first one to suggest them on the list :-)
  537. # [10:48] <Hixie> ok bed time now
  538. # [10:48] <Hixie> nn
  539. # [10:48] <hsivonen> nn
  540. # [10:54] <hsivonen> Philip`: can I get http-equiv values out of http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/survey/2007-07-17/analyse.cgi/attr/http-equiv somehow?
  541. # [10:55] <Philip`> hsivonen: No
  542. # [10:55] <Philip`> hsivonen: though I can get the values easily from my ~130K pages
  543. # [10:56] <annevk> hsivonen, I have this book on XML Schema... so, not sure
  544. # [11:00] <hsivonen> Philip`: I was mainly looking for data about how common content-language is
  545. # [11:00] <hsivonen> that is, should the WG believe it is worth caring about
  546. # [11:01] <hsivonen> how does SVG text deal with RTL?
  547. # [11:02] <hsivonen> hmm. I see a direction attribute...
  548. # [11:02] * hsivonen is really annoyed that the svg spec is split into many HTML files
  549. # [11:04] <hsivonen> hmm. SVG seems to treat direction as style rather that a datum tightly coupled with the text content
  550. # [11:05] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  551. # [11:05] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  552. # [11:06] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  553. # [11:08] <Philip`> hsivonen: Oh, it seems I've already done http://philip.html5.org/data/meta-http-equiv.txt
  554. # [11:09] <Philip`> which is hopefully good enough for this
  555. # [11:09] <hsivonen> Philip`: thanks
  556. # [11:18] * Quits: kingryan (n=ryan@c-24-5-77-167.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  557. # [11:33] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-c844c5db659d9465)
  558. # [11:53] <hsivonen> somehow I'm skeptical about RDF improving the online safety of children
  559. # [11:59] <Lachy> hsivonen, who claimed it would?
  560. # [12:00] <annevk> hsivonen, hmm, Firefox 3 does observe content-language for :lang() matching iirc...
  561. # [12:04] <hsivonen> Lachy: no one as far as I can tell. but it matters depending on whether POWDER is meant to improve safety for children or whether it is meant as a placebo to keep the FCC at bay
  562. # [12:06] <Philip`> A lot of people use <meta name=language> - is that meant to do anything?
  563. # [12:08] * othermaciej is now known as om_sleep
  564. # [12:09] <Philip`> ("A lot" = half as many as use <meta http-equiv=content-language>)
  565. # [12:10] * Quits: om_sleep (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  566. # [12:11] <Philip`> hsivonen: http://philip.html5.org/data/meta-http-equiv-content-language-values.txt might be relevant to something
  567. # [12:14] <hsivonen> Philip`: thanks
  568. # [12:16] <hsivonen> fr, be, ca, lu, ch
  569. # [12:17] <hsivonen> I used to joke that I was learning Belgian at school...
  570. # [12:20] <Lachy> Philip`, a lot of people use meta elements to provide useless meta data that does nothing in practice.
  571. # [12:21] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  572. # [12:21] <hsivonen> so HTML has dir=rtl and SVG has direction=rtl
  573. # [12:21] <hsivonen> does MathML have something equivalent?
  574. # [12:22] <Lachy> hsivonen, I wouldn't expect it too, since, AIUI, maths is supposed to be universal. So all cultures would write maths in the same way.
  575. # [12:23] <hsivonen> including mtext?
  576. # [12:23] <Lachy> I don't know
  577. # [12:23] <Lachy> I'm not an expert on mathml
  578. # [12:23] <hsivonen> though I suppose the directionality belongs on the enclosing XHTML paragraph
  579. # [12:26] <hsivonen> <foreignObject direction=rtl><p>Is this RTL?</p></foreignObject>?
  580. # [12:26] <hsivonen> (my guess is yes)
  581. # [12:26] <Philip`> Equations often have words in them (like long names of variables), and it doesn't seem impossible that people would write some in their native language, and would mix them with others written in English
  582. # [12:26] <hsivonen> Philip`: math text has commas and periods, though.
  583. # [12:27] <Philip`> (though I'd be surprised if LaTeX was any good at Hebrew or Arabic, so I don't know what people do in practice)
  584. # [12:33] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-c844c5db659d9465)
  585. # [12:42] * Quits: qwert666 (n=qwert666@acar70.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) ("Leaving")
  586. # [12:42] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@124-168-100-30.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("bye")
  587. # [12:44] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@124-168-100-30.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  588. # [12:58] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  589. # [12:58] <hsivonen> nice Mail.app crashing email on www-validator
  590. # [13:00] <othermaciej> yeah I noticed that
  591. # [13:00] <othermaciej> that'll be fun
  592. # [13:05] <hsivonen> soo, since CSS keywords are case-insensitive, is SVG direction attribute value case-insensitive?
  593. # [13:10] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p1215-ipbf3008marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  594. # [13:13] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@58.157.21.205)
  595. # [13:36] * Joins: tndH (i=Rob@77.86.5.8)
  596. # [13:54] * Joins: Camaban (n=alee@85-211-106-28.dyn.gotadsl.co.uk)
  597. # [13:56] * Joins: myakura_ (n=myakura@p1215-ipbf3008marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  598. # [13:58] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-168-16.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  599. # [13:59] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  600. # [14:04] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p1215-ipbf3008marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  601. # [14:12] * Joins: tor_ (n=tor@cpe-24-28-29-26.austin.res.rr.com)
  602. # [14:16] * Joins: deane (n=dean@203-211-93-125.ue.woosh.co.nz)
  603. # [14:17] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-05ae610fb62470c1)
  604. # [14:18] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-05ae610fb62470c1) (Client Quit)
  605. # [14:37] <annevk> Mathematics is not universal for at least number notation and all, I recently learned
  606. # [14:37] <annevk> (For some reason I thought that was standardized somehow internationally)
  607. # [14:38] <Philip`> http://www.google.com/gwt/n?u=http://philip.html5.org/misc/chars.html - even Google can't produce well-formed XML
  608. # [14:38] <Philip`> annevk: Even if it was standardised, it wouldn't be universal unless everyone actually followed the standard
  609. # [14:38] <annevk> hsivonen, http://www.w3.org/TR/MathML2/chapter3.html#presm.bidi
  610. # [14:41] <Lachy> annevk, I'm aware there are different number systems, but don't mathemeticians, physicists and other academics all use the same system now?
  611. # [14:45] <annevk> I don't know
  612. # [14:46] <annevk> hsivonen, reading further, "Right-to-left layout of mathematical formulas may be addressed in a future version of MathML."
  613. # [14:47] <Philip`> http://www.google.com/gwt/n?u=http%3A%2F%2Fcanvex.lazyilluminati.com%2Flatest_nocache - hmm, the ]> indicates that the XHTML-outputting Google proxy doesn't actually parse application/xhtml+xml pages as XML
  614. # [14:47] <annevk> hsivonen, though for the textual elements Unicode rules are followed
  615. # [14:48] * Joins: phsiao (n=shawn@c-71-233-78-251.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  616. # [14:48] <annevk> hsivonen, also, "The major additions in MathML 3 are support for bidirectional layout, ..."
  617. # [14:48] * Quits: Camaban (n=alee@85-211-106-28.dyn.gotadsl.co.uk) ("oh bai")
  618. # [14:49] <Philip`> (Also http://www.google.com/gwt/n?u=%0c http://www.google.com/gwt/n?u=%ef%bf%bf )
  619. # [14:50] <annevk> hsivonen, MathML 3 has a dir attribute compatible with HTML though it only applies to <math> and textual elements
  620. # [14:50] <annevk> hsivonen, http://www.w3.org/TR/MathML3/chapter3.html#presm.bidi
  621. # [14:51] * Quits: phsiao (n=shawn@c-71-233-78-251.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
  622. # [14:52] * Joins: phsiao (n=shawn@c-71-233-78-251.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  623. # [15:04] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-04b1fa1783998ab4)
  624. # [15:06] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-04b1fa1783998ab4) (Client Quit)
  625. # [15:12] * Joins: qwert666 (n=qwert666@acar70.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)
  626. # [15:22] * Quits: tor_ (n=tor@cpe-24-28-29-26.austin.res.rr.com)
  627. # [15:49] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  628. # [15:57] * Joins: tor_ (n=tor@nat/ibm/x-10b5ee063ba7c4b8)
  629. # [16:14] * Joins: MacDome (n=eric@c-24-130-11-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  630. # [16:15] * Joins: csarven (n=csarven@on-irc.csarven.ca)
  631. # [16:15] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p1215-ipbf3008marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  632. # [16:15] * Quits: MacDome (n=eric@c-24-130-11-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
  633. # [16:16] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  634. # [16:17] * Quits: cgriego (n=cgriego@cpe-76-183-49-187.tx.res.rr.com)
  635. # [16:19] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  636. # [16:27] * Quits: qwert666 (n=qwert666@acar70.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) ("Leaving")
  637. # [16:29] <annevk> hmm, this ECMAScript "strict mode" seems kind of scary; are strict modes really useful in a language like ECMAScript or are they just introducing a flaw?
  638. # [16:29] <annevk> http://wiki.ecmascript.org/doku.php?id=meetings:minutes_apr_15_2008
  639. # [16:31] <Philip`> Firefox has a "strict" JS mode that just (I think) causes warnings in some cases, like uses of undeclared global variables
  640. # [16:31] <Philip`> but it sounds like they're suggesting something different
  641. # [16:32] * Quits: myakura_ (n=myakura@p1215-ipbf3008marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  642. # [16:34] * Joins: Camaban (n=alee@77-103-78-94.cable.ubr08.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk)
  643. # [16:38] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-84d0956abc71f6c5)
  644. # [16:40] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  645. # [16:42] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-94f62caccc2cd4b3)
  646. # [16:55] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@225.80-203-100.nextgentel.com)
  647. # [16:58] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de) ("Verlassend")
  648. # [17:08] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host217-44-37-113.range217-44.btcentralplus.com)
  649. # [17:10] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@225.80-203-100.nextgentel.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  650. # [17:20] <annevk> Can anyone tell me if http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6204903272262158881 maps to "The Lost Levels" in some way?
  651. # [17:20] <annevk> Because that'd be crappy as I can't get that game on my Wii for some silly unspecified reason
  652. # [17:20] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks for the MathML pointer
  653. # [17:29] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host217-44-37-113.range217-44.btcentralplus.com)
  654. # [17:35] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  655. # [17:41] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host217-44-37-113.range217-44.btcentralplus.com)
  656. # [17:42] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p1215-ipbf3008marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  657. # [17:49] * Joins: Steve_f (n=chatzill@81.253.34.112)
  658. # [17:49] * Parts: Steve_f (n=chatzill@81.253.34.112)
  659. # [17:50] * Quits: phsiao (n=shawn@c-71-233-78-251.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  660. # [17:51] * zcorpan ponders about role='dialog' and <dialog>
  661. # [17:51] <zcorpan> surely that's going to be confusing
  662. # [17:52] <hsivonen> I'd like to have pointers to Hebrew or Arabic pages with alt text that has punctuation
  663. # [17:53] * hsivonen checks wikipedia
  664. # [17:55] <Philip`> hsivonen: http://www.lira.co.il http://www.biogal.co.il http://www.ntt.co.il/ http://www.madas.co.il http://www.volt.co.il http://www.taburit.co.il
  665. # [17:55] <hsivonen> Philip`: thanks
  666. # [17:56] <hsivonen> I tried obvious Israeli newspapers first, but the HTML was too terrible
  667. # [17:56] * Philip` wonders what domain names have Arabic text
  668. # [17:57] <hsivonen> .sa, IIRC
  669. # [17:57] <Philip`> There's only one .sa page in my list
  670. # [17:58] <Philip`> http://www.fayoum.gov.eg/ sort of has punctuation
  671. # [17:59] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@58.157.21.205) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  672. # [18:00] <Philip`> http://www.sheikhmohammed.ae/ sort of has too
  673. # [18:01] <Philip`> I think dmoz.org is quite biased against Arabic :-(
  674. # [18:02] <hsivonen> I find an alarming proportion of iconic images not having width and height attributes
  675. # [18:02] <hsivonen> seems like a bad idea for incremental rendering
  676. # [18:03] * Quits: shepazu (n=schepers@cpe-069-134-123-228.nc.res.rr.com) ("Core Breach")
  677. # [18:03] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@58.157.21.205)
  678. # [18:03] <krijnh> annevk: thanks, will check it out
  679. # [18:03] * Joins: shepazu (n=schepers@cpe-069-134-123-228.nc.res.rr.com)
  680. # [18:05] <zcorpan> hsivonen: it appears that most authors don't care about good incremental rendering, or at least not enough to bother making it better
  681. # [18:06] <Philip`> The cost of adding width and height attributes to all images, and maintaining them for the rest of eternity, is too high
  682. # [18:08] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-98-207-134-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("The computer fell asleep")
  683. # [18:16] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.172)
  684. # [18:20] * starjive_sad is now known as starjive
  685. # [18:20] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  686. # [18:36] * Quits: deane (n=dean@203-211-93-125.ue.woosh.co.nz) ("ChatZilla 0.9.81 [Firefox 2.0.0.14/2008040413]")
  687. # [18:39] * Quits: sverrej (n=sverrej@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Ex-Chat")
  688. # [18:44] * Joins: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  689. # [18:45] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  690. # [18:46] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  691. # [18:48] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@L8ef5.l.pppool.de)
  692. # [18:50] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  693. # [18:50] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  694. # [19:04] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-94f62caccc2cd4b3)
  695. # [19:14] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@L8ef5.l.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  696. # [19:17] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@L8ef5.l.pppool.de)
  697. # [19:19] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  698. # [19:20] <Dashiva> I wonder if there are people actively trying to make validation impractical so as to make it less used... that would be some conspiracy
  699. # [19:22] <Philip`> If half the people who currently validate give up because the validator complains too much, and the other half make their pages slightly better (e.g. by adding summary attributes) to please the validator, is that necessarily bad?
  700. # [19:24] <Dashiva> No, but it's unrealistic
  701. # [19:25] <Dashiva> The validation-based quality of sites is a slope, so there would be many sites who just manage to validate now who no longer bother, whereas the "very validating" sites would probably already have made the changes
  702. # [19:26] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  703. # [19:27] * Parts: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  704. # [19:28] * Joins: tndH_ (i=Rob@87.102.123.236)
  705. # [19:31] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@ti200710a340-2662.bb.online.no)
  706. # [19:31] * Joins: andersca (n=andersca@nat/apple/x-2059234ce6f003bc)
  707. # [19:43] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) ("Leaving")
  708. # [19:44] * Joins: tndH__ (n=Rob@77.86.118.102)
  709. # [19:45] * Joins: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober)
  710. # [19:46] * Quits: tndH (i=Rob@77.86.5.8) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  711. # [19:46] * tndH__ is now known as tndH
  712. # [19:50] <takkaria> does no-one else find mail addressed to "IE8 Core AJAX SWAT Team" amusing?
  713. # [19:51] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  714. # [19:53] <andersca> Hixie?
  715. # [19:53] * annevk feels sorry for Boris
  716. # [19:53] * annevk is planning to address XHR comments after the LC deadline
  717. # [19:55] <Hixie> andersca: yo
  718. # [19:57] <Philip`> takkaria: I hope they have cool outfits
  719. # [20:02] * Quits: tndH_ (i=Rob@87.102.123.236) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  720. # [20:05] <andersca> Hixie: hey
  721. # [20:05] <andersca> Hixie: so I think an exception should be raised when you call ApplicationCache.add with an invalid URL
  722. # [20:06] <Hixie> makes sense
  723. # [20:06] * Joins: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  724. # [20:06] <Hixie> does the spec cover that case?
  725. # [20:08] <annevk> (Brawl is not available in The Netherlands, fwiw. Maybe Kam and all imported it? Seems weird for Norway to have it first...)
  726. # [20:08] * annevk does own Mario Kart now
  727. # [20:09] <andersca> Hixie: no
  728. # [20:09] <Hixie> andersca: then yeah, raise an exception and mail the list, that should be a no-brained to fix
  729. # [20:09] <Hixie> no brainer even
  730. # [20:09] <Hixie> annevk: seems likely
  731. # [20:09] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-49f8f08a229d7826)
  732. # [20:09] <annevk> please raise a SYNTAX_ERR
  733. # [20:10] <Hixie> annevk: there's an import games store in oslo
  734. # [20:10] <annevk> (that'd be compatible with XMLHttpRequest, anyway)
  735. # [20:10] <annevk> Hixie, ah right
  736. # [20:11] <andersca> annevk: yeah, that's what I"m doing
  737. # [20:13] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) ("Leaving")
  738. # [20:17] <annevk> I wonder what "invalid" means though for URIs... User agents apply quite a bit of preprocessing on things that take URIs...
  739. # [20:17] <annevk> Guess we'll cover that eventually in URL5
  740. # [20:18] <andersca> lol
  741. # [20:20] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  742. # [20:20] <gsnedders> How realistic are LEIRIs?
  743. # [20:20] <Dashiva> annevk: What about uri and iri?
  744. # [20:21] <annevk> Yeah, maybe it's better to adopt URI as term and encourage URL for whenever a technology needs to use the term (such as type="url" and url() in CSS)...
  745. # [20:22] <annevk> Dashiva, IRIs are covered by preprocessing as I understand it. They're simply syntactic sugar.
  746. # [20:23] * Joins: tndH__ (i=Rob@adsl-87-102-85-189.karoo.KCOM.COM)
  747. # [20:28] * Joins: jwalden (n=waldo@STRATTON-ONE-SIXTY-THREE.MIT.EDU)
  748. # [20:29] <hsivonen> Philip`: Mediawiki should maintain the dimensions automatically on the Hebrew Wikipedia front page!
  749. # [20:30] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.104.166)
  750. # [20:31] * Joins: qwert666 (n=qwert666@etu218.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)
  751. # [20:34] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@static-68-236-184-75.ny325.east.verizon.net)
  752. # [20:46] * Quits: tndH (n=Rob@77.86.118.102) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  753. # [20:49] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.104.166) (Connection reset by peer)
  754. # [20:49] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.255.104.166)
  755. # [20:50] * Quits: mcarter (n=mcarter@ip-12-22-56-126.hqglobal.net) ("Leaving")
  756. # [20:54] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  757. # [21:08] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-49f8f08a229d7826) ("The computer fell asleep")
  758. # [21:11] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.104.166)
  759. # [21:35] * Joins: mcarter (n=mcarter@ip-12-22-56-126.hqglobal.net)
  760. # [21:35] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@L8ef5.l.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  761. # [21:43] <Philip`> http://webkit.org/blog/176/css-canvas-drawing/
  762. # [21:49] * Quits: starjive (i=beos@213-66-217-32-no30.tbcn.telia.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  763. # [21:59] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@225.80-203-100.nextgentel.com)
  764. # [21:59] <virtuelv> Hixie: re your mail to public webapi
  765. # [22:00] <virtuelv> has anyone made the author aware that mousewheel mostly works these days?
  766. # [22:01] <virtuelv> nevermind, gotta learn to read all of top-posted mails
  767. # [22:03] <Hixie> it might work
  768. # [22:03] <Hixie> it's not really specced yet
  769. # [22:03] <virtuelv> but with regard to the wheelDelta, that really needs to be standardized
  770. # [22:03] <Hixie> there's some work in that area, but i'm not sure if it's backwards compatible with legacy
  771. # [22:03] * Parts: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  772. # [22:03] <Hixie> is it just me or did http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Apr/0565.html miss the point utterly
  773. # [22:03] <virtuelv> my research so far suggests that the sane path to go is to normalize the wheel delta to +-1
  774. # [22:07] <annevk> Hixie, I had the same feeling
  775. # [22:08] <hsivonen> Hixie: it's not just you
  776. # [22:10] <hober> yup, pretty much
  777. # [22:11] <gsnedders> +1
  778. # [22:11] <Philip`> I'll disagree, just to make the discussion more balanced
  779. # [22:13] <gsnedders> Philip`: Good reasoning.
  780. # [22:13] <Hixie> ok good
  781. # [22:13] * tndH__ is now known as tndH
  782. # [22:19] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.181)
  783. # [22:24] * Joins: starjive (i=beos@213-66-217-32-no30.tbcn.telia.com)
  784. # [22:30] * starjive is now known as Starjive
  785. # [22:36] * Starjive is now known as starjive_
  786. # [22:42] * starjive_ is now known as starjive
  787. # [22:47] <annevk> Hixie, Opera at least expands unknown entities to "&" + entityname + ";"
  788. # [22:47] <annevk> Hixie, data:text/xml,<!DOCTYPE test PUBLIC "test" ""><test>&test;</test>
  789. # [22:49] <Hixie> the part of hte spec i changed is just talking about EntityReference nodes
  790. # [22:49] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  791. # [22:50] <Hixie> if the DOM doesn't end up with entity references nodes, then it doesn't apply
  792. # [22:51] <annevk> ah ok
  793. # [22:51] <Hixie> (at least that's my intent)
  794. # [22:51] <annevk> we make it a Text node during parsing it seems
  795. # [22:51] <Hixie> parsing unknown entities into text nodes that say &foo; seems a bit dubious from an xml compliance point of view
  796. # [22:51] <annevk> I don't think we support EntityReference nodes
  797. # [22:51] <Hixie> yeah no-one does
  798. # [22:51] <Hixie> it should be dropped in Web DOM 4
  799. # [22:52] <annevk> The XML specification doesn't really cover that case really well I think...
  800. # [22:52] <Hixie> conveniently that's not my problem :-D
  801. # [22:53] <annevk> My XML5 alpha impl currently agrees with Opera as it seems reasonable fallback
  802. # [22:55] <Hixie> did dan and ben just suggest leaving the definitions of html elements to another working group
  803. # [22:55] <jgraham__> Yes.
  804. # [22:56] <hober> ayup
  805. # [22:56] <hober> the mind boggles
  806. # [22:57] * gsnedders sighs: <http://twitter.com/mollydotcom/statuses/791366032>
  807. # [22:57] <jgraham__> If we can get the SVG folks to define our parsing model, the a11y people to define all our elements then we just need to foist anything DOM-related off onto web-api and Hixie's out of a job
  808. # [22:57] <hober> yeah, sweet
  809. # [22:57] <hober> we can wrap up and go home
  810. # [22:58] <Hixie> that would be nice
  811. # [22:58] <Hixie> i could get back to css3 lists
  812. # [22:58] <annevk> Dan would say we could focus on tests ;)
  813. # [22:58] <Hixie> ok does anyone have any suggestion as to where i should define document.fgColor
  814. # [22:58] <gsnedders> But if the SVG folks are defining the parsing model, isn't that their job?
  815. # [22:58] <Hixie> should i put it in the Document IDL?
  816. # [22:58] <Hixie> or should i put it in some other section somewhere
  817. # [22:59] <gsnedders> Document IDL seems right.
  818. # [23:00] <Hixie> seems bad to be defining APIs we want everyone to ignore right there at the top of the spec though
  819. # [23:00] <annevk> Hixie, it depends on who the IDL is intended for... I thought they were for implementors but you argued otherwise...
  820. # [23:01] <Hixie> well i mean the idl and the definitions
  821. # [23:01] <Hixie> the whole kaboodle
  822. # [23:02] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.255.104.166)
  823. # [23:02] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.181) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  824. # [23:03] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.181)
  825. # [23:03] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@89.10.27.86)
  826. # [23:04] <annevk> some thoughts: each affected IDL/section gets a UA-only subsection || each affected IDL gets a "// UA-only" part with pointers to the rendering section || IDLs are duplicated in the "rendering" section
  827. # [23:04] <annevk> the first is useful for user agents but might not be good for authors
  828. # [23:05] <annevk> the second affects authors less and the last has some amount of duplication / complexity for UAs
  829. # [23:07] <Hixie> well we're going to have a way to say that one idl should be merged into another anyway
  830. # [23:07] <annevk> unless you pick option 1 or 2
  831. # [23:07] <annevk> in which case they're already merged
  832. # [23:08] <Hixie> no i mean webidl is going to have a keyword or something that says "this idl should be merged into that one"
  833. # [23:08] <Hixie> so we can handle Command and the setTimeout idl
  834. # [23:09] <annevk> oops, sorry
  835. # [23:09] <annevk> i guess i prefer the last option as it makes it very clear they're not part of the language, at all
  836. # [23:10] <Hixie> that's what i'm doing
  837. # [23:10] <Hixie> just renamed "rendering" to "rendering and user agent behaviour" or some such
  838. # [23:11] <annevk> be careful with that, people might request you split everything up :)
  839. # [23:14] <Hixie> the great thing about the way the whatwg is set up
  840. # [23:15] <Hixie> is that saying "no" is an option
  841. # [23:17] <annevk> interesting, fgColor and bgColor simply reflect an attribute value
  842. # [23:17] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008Apr/0056.html
  843. # [23:19] <Hixie> hsivonen: what about it?
  844. # [23:19] <hsivonen> from my point of view, the longest paragraph is true alone but seems to be written about the wrong person
  845. # [23:20] * Quits: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.255.104.166) (Connection timed out)
  846. # [23:21] <Hixie> i'd like to point out how right i was in that quoted irc snippet, btw
  847. # [23:22] <hsivonen> indeed
  848. # [23:22] <annevk> it's unfortunate though that they see it as intentionally starting a flame war
  849. # [23:24] <hober> Given their inability to understand Hixie's intentions, is it any wonder they want to remove conformance requirements that hinge on the author's intent?
  850. # [23:26] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@253.sub-75-208-23.myvzw.com)
  851. # [23:28] <Hixie> personally i think if http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Apr/0538.html represents the opinion of all the anti-missing-alt crowd, the discussion is doomed
  852. # [23:28] <Hixie> but it's not clear to me if that's just jf's opinion or if the others agree
  853. # [23:28] <othermaciej> I find the appeal to authority distasteful
  854. # [23:28] <othermaciej> notwithstanding the merits of the argument
  855. # [23:29] <hsivonen> I don't like appeal to authority, either
  856. # [23:30] <gsnedders> I mean, when it comes to accessibility, there are few I actually listen to. All the "experts" don't really know what it is like to use the AT day after day. For that reason, T.V. Ramen is one of the few I actually listen to on things like this.
  857. # [23:30] <annevk> Hixie, "user agent" and "user-agent" are both used
  858. # [23:31] * gsnedders heads off before he's flamed to death for saying that
  859. # [23:31] <billmason> Someone's already probably blogging it.
  860. # [23:32] <Hixie> annevk: yes, "user agent" should be used when it is used as a known and "user-agent" when it is used as an adjective (roughly speaking)
  861. # [23:32] <annevk> s/known/noun/ ?
  862. # [23:32] <Hixie> er
  863. # [23:32] <Hixie> yes
  864. # [23:32] <Hixie> wtf is "known" doing there
  865. # [23:32] <Hixie> i didn't type that i swear
  866. # [23:33] <annevk> heh
  867. # [23:33] * Quits: qwert666 (n=qwert666@etu218.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) ("Leaving")
  868. # [23:35] <annevk> Hixie, linkColor tries to point to link which obviously fails
  869. # [23:37] <annevk> "
  870. # [23:37] <annevk> If a reflecting DOM attribute is a DOMString but doesn't fall into any of the above categories, then the getting and setting must be done in a transparent, case-preserving manner." doesn't really cover what happens when the attribute is not there (or the element on which the attribute is supposedly specified)
  871. # [23:38] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@70-13-212-82.area2.spcsdns.net)
  872. # [23:40] <Hixie> not sure what you mean about link
  873. # [23:41] <annevk> the IDL says linkColor but the attribute definition says link
  874. # [23:41] <Hixie> oh
  875. # [23:41] <Hixie> oops
  876. # [23:41] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  877. # [23:42] <Hixie> fixed
  878. # [23:42] <annevk> Hixie, maybe the part after XXX should be in <span>
  879. # [23:42] <annevk> XXX=<span>HTMLDocument</span>
  880. # [23:45] <hsivonen> oops. what made me think that people don't declare dimensions was a bug in my code...
  881. # [23:54] <hsivonen> Philip`: thanks for the Hebrew and Arabic pointers. I think I have RTL covered now. Those pages had some pretty bad markup.
  882. # [23:55] <Philip`> hsivonen: Pages with bad markup? It's shocking :-(
  883. # [23:57] <annevk> Hixie, elementFromPoint is http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/#documentview-elementfrompoint
  884. # [23:57] <Hixie> oh awesome
  885. # [23:58] <annevk> though hit testing is not :)
  886. # [23:58] <Hixie> hm?
  887. # [23:58] <othermaciej> annevk: would you consider also adding a rangeFromPoint (gives collapsed range) or nodeAndOffsetFromPoint (maybe returns a two-element array or something)
  888. # [23:58] <annevk> elementFromPoint depends on hit testing, which I left undefined for now
  889. # [23:59] * Quits: tndH (i=Rob@adsl-87-102-85-189.karoo.KCOM.COM) ("ChatZilla 0.9.81-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508]")
  890. # [23:59] <Hixie> oh i see
  891. # [23:59] <othermaciej> annevk: we've had requests for hit testing for individual character offsets from a point
  892. # [23:59] <othermaciej> annevk: and I'd rather not just invent an API
  893. # [23:59] <othermaciej> (we have elementFromPoint already)
  894. # [23:59] <annevk> i like rangeFromPoint
  895. # [23:59] <othermaciej> Mozilla provides this info on events
  896. # [23:59] <othermaciej> but an API for it seems more useful and cleaner to me
  897. # Session Close: Fri Apr 18 00:00:00 2008

The end :)