/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-04-19 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Apr 19 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Hixie> damowmow.com/playground/demos/001.html
  4. # [00:00] <annevk> in Mozilla document.carset is undefined even
  5. # [00:01] <annevk> in Opera it returns the empty string, and if you set it to some string you can retrieve that string later, but I'm not sure what the effect is
  6. # [00:01] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@70-13-131-55.area2.spcsdns.net) (Client Quit)
  7. # [00:03] <Hixie> it helps if i remove the default encoding
  8. # [00:03] <Hixie> sigh
  9. # [00:06] <annevk> Hixie, maybe these features can be removed given that Firefox 3 gets away with not supporting them?
  10. # [00:06] <Hixie> http://damowmow.com/playground/demos/charset/001.html seems to indicate that IE doesn't change the encoding
  11. # [00:06] <Hixie> etf
  12. # [00:06] <Hixie> annevk: well they support document.characterSet
  13. # [00:07] <annevk> ah, and Opera and Safari support all...
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  16. # [00:12] <Hixie> my definition of defaultCharset is awesome
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  22. # [00:39] <gsnedders> Hixie: goddamnit. just as I am trying to go to bed I see that comment and _have_ to look.
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  25. # [00:40] <gsnedders> Hixie: Awesomness gone mad.
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  27. # [00:46] <hsivonen> Hixie: did you test charset setting with IANA-unregistered but otherwise supported names?
  28. # [00:50] <Hixie> no
  29. # [00:51] <Hixie> i'm working on the mythical concept that only iana-registered names are supported, and that all supported names are iana-registered
  30. # [00:51] <Hixie> or at least that they will be by the time the spec is in cr
  31. # [00:51] <gsnedders> Ah, I see the realist Hixie showing through again :P
  32. # [00:53] <Hixie> if nobody does the work of registering them, i'll just set up a wiki page and change the spec to refer to that instead of iana
  33. # [00:54] <Hixie> so...
  34. # [00:54] <Hixie> which fires first
  35. # [00:54] <Hixie> onreadystatechanged, or DOMContentLoaded?
  36. # [00:55] <gsnedders> And also, what's a word that means "laughed at" that starts with a t?
  37. # [00:55] * Philip` wonders if document.defaultCharset should return the same value every time you get it
  38. # [00:55] <othermaciej_> in Safari, we support all variants of IANA names with added or removed hyphens (and maybe some other punctuation)
  39. # [00:55] <Philip`> otherwise a mobile browser than returns "encoding associated with the user's current geographical location" might do odd things if you travel a lot
  40. # [00:55] <takkaria> gsnedders: as in "I laughed at him"?
  41. # [00:55] <othermaciej_> probably that is more than strictly needed for compatibility
  42. # [00:55] <Philip`> s/than/that/
  43. # [00:55] <gsnedders> takkaria: "I was laughed at endlessly"
  44. # [00:56] <Hixie> teased
  45. # [00:56] <Hixie> and which happens first, onreadystatechanged, or onload?
  46. # [00:56] <Philip`> Tittered?
  47. # [00:56] <Hixie> othermaciej_: yeah i've received similar feedback from opera
  48. # [00:56] <gsnedders> teased is too specific
  49. # [00:57] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  50. # [00:57] <Hixie> Philip`: i see no reason why it shouldn't change each time
  51. # [00:57] <gsnedders> othermaciej: so what? all consecutive hyphens become a single hyphen?
  52. # [00:57] <Hixie> Philip`: e.g. if someone is playing with their settings
  53. # [00:57] <Philip`> gsnedders: The dictionary suggests "twitted" but I've never heard that before
  54. # [00:58] <othermaciej> gsnedders: for example, for the official name ISO_8859-1 we will also accept ISO88591
  55. # [00:58] <Philip`> Hixie: <a href="#refsRFC2046">[RFC2646]</a> - s/0/6/
  56. # [00:58] <othermaciej> (that's not one of the registered aliases)
  57. # [00:58] <gsnedders> othermaciej: ah, OK
  58. # [00:59] <othermaciej> or conversely, we'll accept latin-1, even though only latin1 is an official alias
  59. # [00:59] * Quits: billmason (n=billmaso@ip200.unival.com) (".")
  60. # [00:59] <Hixie> Philip`: fixed
  61. # [01:01] <othermaciej> (of course we don't treat any of those as real latin1)
  62. # [01:01] * gsnedders wishes life was simpler than it is
  63. # [01:01] <Philip`> Hixie: There's another half a dozen of the same error elsewhere
  64. # [01:01] <gsnedders> (in terms of things like this)
  65. # [01:02] <Hixie> Philip`: where?
  66. # [01:02] <Hixie> Philip`: all the other 2046s seem right
  67. # [01:02] <Philip`> href="#refsRFC2318">[RFC2138]</a>
  68. # [01:02] <Philip`> href="#refsRFC2046">[RFC2646]</a>
  69. # [01:02] <Philip`> href="#refsRFC3490">[RFC3986]</a>
  70. # [01:02] <Philip`> href="#refsRFC3490">[RFC3987]</a>
  71. # [01:02] <Philip`> href="#refsRFC3490">[RFC3986]</a>
  72. # [01:02] <Philip`> href="#refsRFC3490">[RFC3987]</a>
  73. # [01:02] <Philip`> href="#refsRFC3490">[RFC3986]</a>
  74. # [01:02] <Hixie> othermaciej: iirc opera said they just strip out all -s and _s and various other punctuation before doing comparisons
  75. # [01:02] <Hixie> Philip`: ah ok
  76. # [01:02] <othermaciej> Hixie: that's basically what we do too
  77. # [01:02] <Hixie> Philip`: good times
  78. # [01:03] <Hixie> Philip`: i'll fix those when i do the refs
  79. # [01:03] <othermaciej> Hixie: both from the provided charset and the official charset names being compared to
  80. # [01:03] <Hixie> othermaciej: right
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  82. # [01:15] <Hixie> hm
  83. # [01:15] <Hixie> webkit sometimes returns readyState as 'loaded'
  84. # [01:15] <Hixie> but I can't get IE to return that
  85. # [01:15] <Hixie> only 'interactive'
  86. # [01:16] <gsnedders> Browsers are odd.
  87. # [01:16] <gsnedders> We should just XML. Draconian error handling will sort everything out.
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  161. # [10:16] <annevk> well, <q> is obsolete now: http://googlenewsblog.blogspot.com/2008/04/words-matter.html
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  174. # [11:18] <hsivonen> where did the idea the passing the W3C validator increases Google rank come from?
  175. # [11:20] <Lachy> hsivonen, it probably evolved from the idea that valid markup is easier to parse than invalid markup, and thus if google can't read your page properly due to invalid markup, it won't rank it correctly.
  176. # [11:21] <Lachy> of course, it's total nonsense
  177. # [11:21] <Lachy> or maybe it's for the Google Accessible Search http://labs.google.com/accessible/
  178. # [11:22] <hsivonen> nah. If you care about accessible search, you probably actually care about accessibility instead of just rank in the normal google search
  179. # [11:22] <Lachy> in which case, it would derive from the validity requirement in WCAG 1.0
  180. # [11:23] <Lachy> yeah, but it's like chinese whispers. People read one thing, misunderstand, tell others another thing, and the idea just evolves into things that are only remotely related to the original
  181. # [11:24] <hsivonen> yeah. some of the SEO "expert" guidance out there is total bullshit
  182. # [11:26] <hsivonen> even if 'lies to children' might be useful is the short term, in the long run, there's the risk that people figure out the lie and then the general credibility of HTML 5 is gone
  183. # [11:26] <Lachy> indeed. The only really good expert advice is to write content that people are interested in, use reasonably appropriate semantic markup and don't try to play tricks
  184. # [11:40] * Quits: mitsuhiko (n=nnnmitsu@ubuntu/member/mitsuhiko) (Remote closed the connection)
  185. # [11:40] <tommorris> It's a useful lie.
  186. # [11:41] <tommorris> The SEO folks are so gullible that you can just say "valid HTML increases PageRank" and we all benefit by them making their pages valid. ;)
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  188. # [11:55] <hsivonen> wouldn't a more direct lie work? like good alt text increases page rank?
  189. # [11:55] <hsivonen> that might even not be a lie. I don't know.
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  192. # [12:15] <Mook> help? looking at the <video> specs, and having trouble figuring out if an element is "actively playing" as a content author.
  193. # [12:16] <Mook> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2008-January/013605.html says "!video.paused && !video.ended && video.readyState >= HTMLMediaElement.CAN_PLAY" but I can't tell if that covers "playback has not stopped due to errors, and the element has not paused for user interaction. "
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  200. # [13:02] <Philip`> It seems hard to tell how many people are using alt for SEO, how many are using it for tooltips, and how many are using it for 'proper' reasons
  201. # [13:02] <Philip`> but if people are actually using alt properly, I suppose it doesn't matter what their reasons are
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  203. # [13:35] <hsivonen> Philip`: their reasons don't matter for the end result, but the reasons matter when formulating policies that seek to influence people through reasons
  204. # [13:37] <hsivonen> hmm. isn't the pure way to do what zcorpan_ suggests on list to use a <meter> with XBL2? :-)
  205. # [13:40] <Philip`> Back in the real world, we need solutions that actually work :-p
  206. # [13:42] <Philip`> With XBL2, would AT see the pre-transformed or post-transformed DOM?
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  208. # [13:47] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: gloves... :)
  209. # [13:49] <zcorpan_> which blog is splitting up images in the heading to make it wrap?
  210. # [13:50] <zcorpan_> http://vivabit.com/
  211. # [13:51] <zcorpan_> though it uses css, but the idea is the same
  212. # [13:52] <Philip`> I hope Google doesn't start doing OCR of images, since that'd remove one of the incentives to providing legitimate alt text
  213. # [13:52] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: :-)
  214. # [13:52] <hsivonen> Philip`: the theory is that the non-transformed tree would be conveyed to AT
  215. # [13:53] <Philip`> http://dromaeo.com/ - that uses split images in the heading, to make it resize interestingly
  216. # [13:54] <Philip`> hsivonen: Won't that theory fail the first time someone uses an element the AT doesn't recognise, and transforms it into elements the AT would recognise (like normal HTML elements), so the AT would be much better off using the transformed tree?
  217. # [13:56] <hsivonen> Philip`: yes
  218. # [13:56] <Philip`> Oh, okay
  219. # [13:58] <hsivonen> so for XBL2 to work as advertised, the first browser that implements needs to implement AT access to meter, progress and WF2 *first*
  220. # [13:59] <Philip`> And people have to only use those elements, not make up a <myjstoolkit-fancywidget> and use that instead
  221. # [14:00] <zcorpan_> should we allow <data-foo> elements?
  222. # [14:01] <Lachy> zcorpan_, for what use case?
  223. # [14:01] <zcorpan_> for custom complex structure that's inconvenient to use in an attribute value
  224. # [14:02] <zcorpan_> though i guess it's starting to get ugly at that point
  225. # [14:02] <Lachy> but then that would fill the page with visible, though potentially non-human readable data
  226. # [14:02] <annevk> zcorpan_, I think <div class=...> and <span class=...> are for that
  227. # [14:02] <annevk> Actually, I know they are :)
  228. # [14:03] <zcorpan_> annevk: true
  229. # [14:06] <Philip`> zcorpan_: Why not just put the complex structured data in the data-* attribute, encoded as XML or JSON?
  230. # [14:06] <Lachy> zcorpan_, for data that won't fit well into data-foo="" attributes, authors would be better off putting the data into a data structure (like an array, JSON, etc.) and associating that data with a particular element using id="" or some other reference in a data-* attribute
  231. # [14:07] <Lachy> Philip`, it's difficult to embed XML markup as an attribute value
  232. # [14:07] <zcorpan_> Philip`: escaped xml in an attribute is ugly
  233. # [14:07] <Philip`> <div data-foo='<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><b>Hello world</b></html>'>
  234. # [14:07] <Philip`> Doesn't look ugly to me
  235. # [14:08] <zcorpan_> Philip`: "&amp;" gives you trouble
  236. # [14:08] <zcorpan_> you also need to parse it yourself if you want to access it
  237. # [14:08] <Lachy> Philip`, it's not well-formed XML, so you would need to escape < and & properly in XHTML
  238. # [14:58] <tommorris> embedded XML inside other XML or HTML attributes is a horrible mess.
  239. # [15:02] <Philip`> What we need is a <![CDATA[...]]> for attribute values
  240. # [15:06] <tommorris> Or better yet to make sure that nobody designs XML or SGML syntaxes that use CDATA attributes
  241. # [15:15] <annevk> or better yet, don't use attributes for this
  242. # [15:16] <tommorris> yep, it's a bad idea.
  243. # [15:16] <Philip`> <xml><html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><b>Hello world</b></html></xml>
  244. # [15:17] <Philip`> Works fine for most web users
  245. # [15:23] <Lachy> Philip`, except that <xml> in IE gives very different results from any other browser.
  246. # [15:24] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@ti200710a340-2662.bb.online.no) ("Leaving")
  247. # [15:24] <Philip`> So does e.g. <canvas>
  248. # [15:27] * Quits: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  249. # [15:27] <Philip`> (There's <xml src="..."></xml> too, which is kind of like synchronous unscripted XMLHttpRequest)
  250. # [15:28] <Philip`> http://msdn.microsoft.com/archive/en-us/dnarxml/html/ICPXML.asp?frame=true - "The <XML> tag is reserved by the W3C for use in HTML." - huh?
  251. # [15:29] <annevk> Philip`, v
  252. # [15:29] <annevk> Philip`, http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/NOTE-xh-19980511#xml-block
  253. # [15:32] <Philip`> http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/fb2xe77x(VS.85).aspx - I'm glad nobody uses that
  254. # [15:33] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@ti200710a340-2662.bb.online.no)
  255. # [15:38] <Philip`> Er, nobody except http://pagesperso-orange.fr/cyril.distinguin/ and http://eskil.meb.gov.tr/ and http://history-pc.narod.ru/ and http://www.maximumhardcoremovies.com/wild_hardcore/index.html
  256. # [15:38] <Philip`> (plus a million times as many pages that I haven't looked at)
  257. # [15:40] <Philip`> annevk: I guess that means HTML5 is a non-conforming specification, since it violates the requirement "the group decided on a vote of 10 for and 1 abstension (none against) to use an element called XML. This must be added to a future version of HTML."
  258. # [15:42] <annevk> future version doesn't mean HTML5, it could be HTML6, or HTML5+n
  259. # [15:43] <Philip`> HTML5 is a future version of HTML, and since <xml> must be added to a future version of HTML, that logically means it must be added to HTML5
  260. # [15:51] <roc> no
  261. # [15:52] <Philip`> You can't argue against logic!
  262. # [15:52] <roc> that's not logic
  263. # [15:52] <doublec> besides, the topic says to leave your sense of logic at the door...
  264. # [15:53] <roc> go to sleep Chris
  265. # [15:53] <doublec> hmm, the same could be said to you roc :)
  266. # [15:53] <gsnedders> Go to sleep the both of you.
  267. # [15:54] <doublec> hehe
  268. # [15:54] <Philip`> Can I go to sleep too?
  269. # [15:54] <roc> one ... more ... patch
  270. # [15:54] <gsnedders> Philip`: Invalid timezone.
  271. # [15:54] * Philip` gets lunch instead
  272. # [15:55] <gsnedders> Can I have a medal for procrastination?
  273. # [15:55] <gsnedders> I feel like I deserve one.
  274. # [15:55] <Philip`> I could give you one, but it might take me a while to get around to it
  275. # [15:57] <gsnedders> Hah.
  276. # [15:57] <gsnedders> I admit, it's taken me a while to ask for one.
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  286. # [20:17] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  287. # [20:17] * Set by gsnedders on Tue Dec 18 21:41:19
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  309. # [23:59] <gsnedders> does anyone know what Prince's default page margins are?
  310. # Session Close: Sun Apr 20 00:00:00 2008

The end :)