/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-04-24 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Apr 24 00:00:01 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.181)
  4. # [00:00] <Lachy> things that aren't strictly conformance errors, but are still subject to common authoring mistakes
  5. # [00:00] <hsivonen> Lachy: why do authors need to inspect href?
  6. # [00:01] <hsivonen> how like is it to link to a non-404 URI and have the wrong URI?
  7. # [00:01] <hsivonen> s/like/likely/
  8. # [00:01] <Lachy> occasionally, I come across links in blogs posts that are marked up as <a href="">foo bar</a>, where the link was supposed to link to some 3rd party site, but they forgot to paste the link in
  9. # [00:01] <hsivonen> how likely would a person notice the error in a long list of URIs?
  10. # [00:01] <hsivonen> ah. that's a specific case
  11. # [00:01] <Lachy> so empty href values should be flagged
  12. # [00:02] <hsivonen> is the empty string a valid IRI ref?
  13. # [00:02] <Lachy> it is a valid reference to the current document
  14. # [00:02] <Lachy> but the use case for actually doing so are slim
  15. # [00:03] <hsivonen> looks like a case for a warning--not necessarily a special report
  16. # [00:03] <gsnedders> I use it fairly often, actually
  17. # [00:03] <hsivonen> gsnedders: why?
  18. # [00:03] <Lachy> for abbr, now that omitting title is allowed, some authors still might want to know if they missed one by mistake
  19. # [00:03] <hsivonen> gsnedders: why do you link to current doc without fragment?
  20. # [00:03] * gsnedders notes he taken sleeping pills about half an hours ago and is about to fall alseep
  21. # [00:03] <Philip`> <form action=""> is more useful
  22. # [00:04] <hsivonen> oh yes indeed
  23. # [00:04] <gsnedders> hsivonen: In short, things like the link to current doc at top of spec for example
  24. # [00:04] <gsnedders> hsivonen: and quoting things from the page page
  25. # [00:04] * krijn reminds zcorpan_ of his apathy ;)
  26. # [00:04] <annevk> krijn, yo
  27. # [00:04] <annevk> ah, pm
  28. # [00:04] <hsivonen> is zcorpan_ saying something that needs censoring?
  29. # [00:05] <Philip`> People can find abbr where they missed title by telling their text editor to search for "<abbr>"
  30. # [00:05] <Lachy> Philip`, and they can also search for href=""
  31. # [00:06] <Lachy> but having to manually search for each individual case like that is more time consuming that having a tool do so automatically
  32. # [00:07] <Lachy> WOW! Microsoft supports the proposal to drop NSResolver :-)
  33. # [00:07] <krijn> hsivonen: he did ^
  34. # [00:09] * Star is now known as starjive
  35. # [00:09] <hsivonen> Lachy: I predict a TAG thread and an objection from another WG
  36. # [00:10] <Lachy> which WG?
  37. # [00:10] * Retrieving #whatwg modes...
  38. # [00:10] <annevk> any
  39. # [00:10] <hsivonen> Lachy: the one now objecting to CSS namespace @-rules
  40. # [00:11] <annevk> they retracted that actualy
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  42. # [00:11] <annevk> actually*
  43. # [00:11] <hsivonen> oh. good.
  44. # [00:11] <hsivonen> I though it was still part of telecon agenda and stuff
  45. # [00:12] <hsivonen> theught
  46. # [00:12] <hsivonen> thought
  47. # [00:12] <hsivonen> Lachy: I've filed your suggestion as http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=175
  48. # [00:12] <hsivonen> Lachy: warning about empty href is going to happen
  49. # [00:12] <hsivonen> dunno about the rest
  50. # [00:12] <Lachy> oh, I didn't realise you had your own bugzilla
  51. # [00:13] <hsivonen> I don't want to build inspectors for metadata that is only marginally useful or downright useless
  52. # [00:13] <hsivonen> and I'm not sure about the usefulness of abbr title yet
  53. # [00:14] <Lachy> yeah, I'm not sure how useful it is either. Just wanted to get the idea out while I had it
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  60. # [00:44] <Lachy> hmm. Maybe the approach to take now is to take Bjoern's advice and require UAs that don't support namespaces to throw a NOT_SUPPORTED_ERR if a non-null NSResolver is passed, but still keep NSResolver defined in the spec
  61. # [00:44] <Lachy> Then, when it comes time to exit CR, if we don't have 2 interoperable implementations of the NSResolver feature, we can drop it then
  62. # [00:47] <othermaciej> that would get in the way of finding a better solution than NSResolver
  63. # [00:50] <Lachy> oh, yeah.
  64. # [00:50] <Lachy> can you reply to the thread and say that?
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  84. # [02:38] <Hixie> why does lachy blogging mean that /feed/ on the blog gets hit a lot
  85. # [02:38] <Hixie> that makes no sense to me
  86. # [02:39] <takkaria> update services?
  87. # [02:39] <Philip`> Does "hit" mean number of requests, or number of requests that get a 200 response because they're not handled by any caching mechanism?
  88. # [02:41] <Hixie> the former
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  90. # [02:47] <jruderman_> maybe feed readers that already noticed the new post are checking the feed again to pick up typo fixes and such?
  91. # [02:47] <Hixie> maybe
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  96. # [03:50] <Hixie> what to do with tabindex=""
  97. # [03:50] <Hixie> dropping it altogether is very tempting
  98. # [03:52] <takkaria> Hixie: nice to see you watched Yes Minister fairly recently. :)
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  100. # [03:55] <Hixie> hm? when?
  101. # [03:55] <takkaria> or maybe I'm just drawing more than can be drawn from the last-modified date of http://ian.hixie.ch/bible/handling-people
  102. # [03:56] <Hixie> the last change was the last section
  103. # [03:57] <Hixie> but october isn't recently, anyway :-)
  104. # [03:58] <takkaria> I'm one of those people who takes a long time to adjust to a change of year, it's only just got through to me that 2007 is almost four months away
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  106. # [04:01] <roc_> Ian has been studying YES, MINISTER? That explains a lot
  107. # [04:01] * roc_ is now known as roc
  108. # [04:04] <Hixie> in what way!
  109. # [04:05] <Hixie> hey!
  110. # [04:05] <Hixie> i don't know whether to be offended or not!
  111. # [04:05] <takkaria> Hixie: let's say, you've made some very courageous decisions. :)
  112. # [04:06] <Hixie> hey!
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  117. # [05:21] <Hixie> is there any reason to allow tabindex="" on anything but <div>s?
  118. # [05:21] <Hixie> and maybe <span>s?
  119. # [05:23] <jruderman_> it's a lot more widely used than that...
  120. # [05:23] <Hixie> is it used in ways that improve matters?
  121. # [05:23] <jruderman_> hmm
  122. # [05:24] <jruderman_> wordpress used to get it totally wrong
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  128. # [05:38] <takkaria> hmm, I dislike people who claim they provide JSON APIs when they actually provide JS APIs
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  133. # [06:00] <inimino> takkaria: you mean people that didn't actually look at the definition of JSON?
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  135. # [06:07] <takkaria> inimino: it shouldn't surprise me, really, but it does. :)
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  160. # [09:25] <hsivonen> Hixie: ARIA uses tabindex
  161. # [09:27] <Hixie> does it use any value other than 0?
  162. # [09:27] <hsivonen> Hixie: -1, IIRC
  163. # [09:27] <hsivonen> tabindex is basically a backwards-compatible focusable
  164. # [09:27] <Hixie> -1 seems like it would be really bad for accessibility
  165. # [09:28] <Hixie> what's the point of a focusable field you can't focus?
  166. # [09:28] <hsivonen> http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/ARIA_UA_Best_Practices#11.3.1.1_HTML_5_Tabindex
  167. # [09:29] <hsivonen> Hixie: I don't know what the use cases for -1 are, but it seems that the three states are absent, -1 and 0
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  170. # [09:29] <Hixie> there are four states
  171. # [09:29] <Hixie> no wait, five
  172. # [09:30] <Hixie> no wait, six
  173. # [09:30] <hsivonen> Hixie: are you counting intrinsic focusability of form controls and links?
  174. # [09:31] <Hixie> absent and focusable and tabbable in automatic tab order, absent and not focusable, focusable but not tabbable, focusable and tabbable in automatic tab order, focusable and tabbable in fixed tab order
  175. # [09:31] <Hixie> and hypothetically, absent and focusable and not tabbable
  176. # [09:32] <Hixie> there is no "not focusable", which seems like it might be at least as useful as focusable but not tabbable
  177. # [09:32] <othermaciej> -1 allows programmatic focus
  178. # [09:32] <Hixie> othermaciej: programmatic _and mouse_ focus
  179. # [09:32] <othermaciej> I can see how it might be useful to have something focusable but not in the tab cycle
  180. # [09:33] <Hixie> e.g.?
  181. # [09:33] <othermaciej> (though that doesn't normally happen in Mac UI)
  182. # [09:33] <jruderman> a cell in a spreadsheet that is infinite in both directions?
  183. # [09:33] <othermaciej> control that has multiple possibly active elements and when it gets focus it focuses the "current" one
  184. # [09:34] <Hixie> fair enough
  185. # [09:34] <othermaciej> (that is essentially what a WebKit WebView does in Cocoa on Mac OS X, by analogy)
  186. # [09:35] <hsivonen> Hixie: what about an ajax widget that consists of multiple HTML elements and you want any of them to be clickable but you want the entire thing to appear once in the keyboard focus cycle?
  187. # [09:35] <othermaciej> perhaps you have a widget where the children are normally navigated by arrow keys instead of TAB for keyboardability
  188. # [09:36] <othermaciej> (in fact <select multi> is an example of such a control built into HTML)
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  192. # [09:56] <annevk> given the use cases so far you could require that tabindex=-1 is always inside tabindex=0
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  194. # [10:01] <Hixie> some of the use cases just need one of n controls to be =0
  195. # [10:02] <Hixie> and the others to be =-1
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  197. # [10:16] <hsivonen> annevk: what if you have a composite widget that is spread across two table cells and the nearest common ancestor contains a whole lot more than just that widget?
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  202. # [10:29] * Hixie updates his dilbert script to handle the new page
  203. # [10:29] <Hixie> dilbert.com are fighting the good fight
  204. # [10:29] <Hixie> giving people a reason to disable flash, by giving a better ui without flash than with
  205. # [10:31] <Philip`> The non-Flash UI used to be "You need to install Flash" four times
  206. # [10:31] <Philip`> Looks like they've fixed that now, which is nice
  207. # [10:31] <Hixie> the non-flash ui is now way better than the flash ui
  208. # [10:32] <Hixie> and it even shows it to you as the flash is loading
  209. # [10:32] <Hixie> to show you why you should disable flash
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  217. # [10:50] <sverrej> hei hei
  218. # [10:50] <sverrej> /wrong channel
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  220. # [10:53] <hsivonen> Hixie: if HTML5 is successful, the worse UI will be written in JS and canvas
  221. # [10:53] <Hixie> yep
  222. # [10:54] <Hixie> but at least people will be able to write interoperable implementations of players for those uis
  223. # [10:54] <hsivonen> yeah
  224. # [10:55] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#tabindex
  225. # [11:02] <zcorpan> hsivonen: so aria will need to work with canvas!
  226. # [11:04] <othermaciej> hsivonen: the problem with Flash is not just that it makes it easy to do weird, poorly integrated UI, but that it makes it hard to make natural UI that fits with the platform and the browser environment
  227. # [11:04] <othermaciej> I don't think HTML5 as a whoe has that problem
  228. # [11:04] <othermaciej> canvas gives you an out, but it's not the convenient, let alone only, path to making app-style UI
  229. # [11:05] <annevk> <canvas> is here to allow people to implement Super Mario and Doom :)
  230. # [11:06] <Philip`> It's kind of hard to do UI in a canvas when there's no text support
  231. # [11:06] <Hixie> yeah
  232. # [11:06] <Hixie> indeed
  233. # [11:06] <Hixie> we really need a solution to that
  234. # [11:06] <Hixie> it's a tough problem
  235. # [11:06] <Hixie> i'm thinking a drawText method that takes a rect
  236. # [11:06] <Hixie> and a font-size
  237. # [11:07] <Hixie> and tries rendering at that font-size, but if it won't fit at that size, it shrinks the text until it fits
  238. # [11:07] <Hixie> i can't see another good way of avoiding the unpredictable metrics problem
  239. # [11:07] <annevk> @font-face ?
  240. # [11:08] <annevk> also, that doesn't allow text along a path and such
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  242. # [11:08] <Hixie> text along a path is far less critical
  243. # [11:08] <Hixie> as is render text to path
  244. # [11:08] <Hixie> though the latter could be done in a similar way with a arect
  245. # [11:09] <Philip`> A nasty problem with Mozilla's text drawing thing is the font size depends on the user's text size preferences, so it's very unpredictable
  246. # [11:09] <Hixie> yeah that's obviously a non-starter
  247. # [11:09] <Philip`> If the font size was just done in pixels, it'd be pretty much the same between most non-crazy fonts, so in practice it would work reliably enough in most cases
  248. # [11:09] <Hixie> requiring a TTF is an interesting idea
  249. # [11:09] <Hixie> Philip`: oh no, just compare verdana to tahoma or arial
  250. # [11:10] <Hixie> and that's just fonts on one platform
  251. # [11:10] <Hixie> hmm, requiring a ttf would be really funny for so many reasons
  252. # [11:10] <annevk> Lachy, I think datetime is actually Y10K proof
  253. # [11:10] <Hixie> i was talking to someone else earlier today about this
  254. # [11:11] <Hixie> and they suggested that html5 should just have an appendix that included a full unicode font
  255. # [11:11] <Hixie> that uas had to use for canvas
  256. # [11:11] <Philip`> I'm assuming "most cases" are where the font size isn't critical - you can have things like right/center aligned graph labels, and it doesn't matter if the text is somewhat wider since there's plenty of blank space to grow into
  257. # [11:11] <annevk> Hixie, wow, that's pretty drastic
  258. # [11:11] <Hixie> Philip`: many labels are going to abut the edge
  259. # [11:11] <Hixie> annevk: it wasn't a serious suggestion :-)
  260. # [11:12] <Philip`> Make the canvas infinite so there is no edge
  261. # [11:12] <Hixie> mmhmm
  262. # [11:12] <Philip`> (and render it infinitely, not just inside the <canvas> rectangle)
  263. # [11:12] <Philip`> Warning: bad idea
  264. # [11:14] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-179-147.dsl.telstraclear.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  265. # [11:15] <hsivonen> Hixie: the tokenizer spec would be nicer if the places where you have lookahead were written as states
  266. # [11:15] <Lachy> annevk, I thought the year was restricted to 4 digits
  267. # [11:15] * hsivonen refactors them as states
  268. # [11:15] * Lachy checks...
  269. # [11:17] <annevk> oh yeah, "not exactly four digits long"
  270. # [11:18] <Lachy> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#dates
  271. # [11:18] <Lachy> yep
  272. # [11:18] <annevk> that's inconsistent with http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-forms/current-work/#date though so it's probably a bug
  273. # [11:18] <Philip`> http://www.rosettaproject.org/about-us/disk/concept - they want years >10,000
  274. # [11:19] <hsivonen> annevk: I think I've raised the inconsistency as an issue
  275. # [11:19] <annevk> k
  276. # [11:20] <annevk> I don't see it in "semantics-phrasing"
  277. # [11:21] <annevk> hmm, might not be the correct place
  278. # [11:22] <annevk> ah, it's in "microsyntaxes-dates"
  279. # [11:23] <annevk> "Consistency of date formats between WF 2.0 and WA 1.0"
  280. # [11:24] <annevk> Hixie, is the 1-8 list at http://www.whatwg.org/issues/top still accurate?
  281. # [11:26] <zcorpan> seems like there aren't really enough votes to make the top list an actual top list
  282. # [11:27] <zcorpan> more like the latest pet issues
  283. # [11:27] <annevk> oh, i wasn't wondering about those
  284. # [11:27] * annevk wondered about the "Ian's current priorities" list
  285. # [11:28] <zcorpan> ah
  286. # [11:34] <Hixie> annevk: not really
  287. # [11:34] <Hixie> annevk: i update it every now and then
  288. # [11:35] <Hixie> hsivonen: which cases are those?
  289. # [11:36] * Joins: hasather_ (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  290. # [11:42] <Hixie> anyone got IE?
  291. # [11:43] <Hixie> nevermind
  292. # [11:43] * Hixie fires up CVMWare
  293. # [11:44] <Lachy> I have IE8
  294. # [11:45] <hsivonen> Hixie: inspecting if the next chars are the close tag in [R]CDATA and inspecting if the next chars are 'OCTYPE'
  295. # [11:46] <hsivonen> or UBLIC
  296. # [11:46] <hsivonen> or YSTEM
  297. # [11:46] <Hixie> how would you do those as states?
  298. # [11:47] <hsivonen> I'd have states that inspect for those strings incrementing an index into the reference string
  299. # [11:47] <hsivonen> and putting the characters also inte the same buffer that is used for comments so that if a switch to bogus comment comes, the start of the comment buffer is already correct
  300. # [11:48] <annevk> that wouldn't make the spec more readable imo
  301. # [11:48] <hsivonen> perhaps not in the OCTYPE, YSTEM and UBLIC cases
  302. # [11:49] <Philip`> I like it more when the spec says something obvious and I have to translate it into something efficient to implement, rather than when it says something efficient to implement and I have to reverse-engineer it in order to implement it differently
  303. # [11:49] <hsivonen> the close tag stuff in [R]CDATA could well be its own state in the spec
  304. # [11:50] <hsivonen> I'm refactoring the tokenizer to make it more friendly for cases where the tokenizer doesn't own the processing loop
  305. # [11:50] <hsivonen> I see three use cases:
  306. # [11:50] <Hixie> yeah i certainly wouldn't implement those cases as states
  307. # [11:50] <Hixie> that would be terrible for perf for me
  308. # [11:51] <hsivonen> Hixie: why would it be terrible for perf?
  309. # [11:52] <Hixie> because doing a strong comparison using my native string compare function is far faster than looping six times through my tokeniser function
  310. # [11:52] <Hixie> s/strong/string/
  311. # [11:52] <Philip`> (The adoption agency is a case where I had to reverse engineer the algorithm before I could implement it sanely in OCaml, and it would have been nicer if the spec said what it was trying to achieve)
  312. # [11:53] <Hixie> yeah
  313. # [11:53] <Hixie> i'm not sure i know what it was trying to achieve
  314. # [11:53] <Hixie> i've only ever worked out what the AAA is in terms of what the spec sys
  315. # [11:53] <Philip`> Ah, okay :-)
  316. # [11:53] <Hixie> the spec is basically a direct brain dump from what i came up with
  317. # [11:54] <hsivonen> I think my current refactoring effort will make it easier to do a line-by-line port from Java to C[++].
  318. # [11:54] <hsivonen> for apps that have a Gecko-style processin loop
  319. # [11:55] <Philip`> Hixie: Your brain is weird if you get a 22-step algorithm from a direct dump of it
  320. # [11:55] <Hixie> my brain is certainly weird
  321. # [11:56] <Hixie> for AAA i basically derived the algorithm on my whiteboards by black box testing
  322. # [11:56] <Hixie> and a lot of trial and error
  323. # [11:56] * Quits: sverrej (n=sverrej@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  324. # [11:57] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  325. # [12:23] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) ("Ex-Chat")
  326. # [12:27] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p1215-ipbf3008marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  327. # [12:30] * Quits: qwert666 (n=qwert666@acdh200.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) ("Leaving")
  328. # [12:35] <zcorpan> http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/04/23/what-happened-to-operation-aborted.aspx is interesting
  329. # [12:35] <zcorpan> also affects xml parsing
  330. # [12:38] <annevk> I wonder what happens in other browsers
  331. # [12:39] <annevk> other browsers seem to simply do what is requested
  332. # [12:39] * Joins: Camaban (n=alee@77-103-78-94.cable.ubr08.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk)
  333. # [12:40] <annevk> it crashes IE6 :)
  334. # [12:40] <zcorpan> yeah
  335. # [12:40] <zcorpan> in opera you can get text nodes as child of the document node
  336. # [12:40] <zcorpan> s/child/children/
  337. # [12:41] <zcorpan> (with non-whitespace data)
  338. # [12:41] <annevk> that should prolly throw a HIERARCHY_REQUEST_ERR or something
  339. # [12:41] <zcorpan> i rather think we should do what webkit and firefox do
  340. # [12:42] <annevk> test snippet?
  341. # [12:43] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  342. # [12:48] <othermaciej> wow
  343. # [12:48] <othermaciej> I never would have even thought of handling that case with an error dialog which makes the page disappear when you click ok
  344. # [12:50] <othermaciej> that blog post is very vague about which browsers do what
  345. # [12:50] <zcorpan> annevk: http://dump.testsuite.org/2008/mutations-during-parsing/ ;)
  346. # [12:51] <annevk> :p
  347. # [12:51] * othermaciej learns that webkit's xml parser does not enjoy mutation during parsing
  348. # [12:52] <zcorpan> othermaciej: webkit and firefox remember the modified dom and the parser drops elements or inserts them in the "new" place accordingly; opera assumes there were no mutations and just inserts elements blindly
  349. # [12:52] <zcorpan> s/elements/nodes/
  350. # [12:52] <zcorpan> at least last time i tested
  351. # [12:52] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  352. # [12:53] <othermaciej> http://tinyurl.com/6cwsfj
  353. # [12:53] <othermaciej> that's Travis's example in Live DOM Viewer
  354. # [12:53] <othermaciej> Safari seems top be dropping everything that would have gone in the removed node
  355. # [12:54] <Lachy> so rather than actually find a solution that doesn't throw an error, they still throw the error and abort, but just not tell the user about it? That's only marginally better.
  356. # [12:54] <zcorpan> hmm safari 3.1 crashed for 002.xml
  357. # [12:55] <annevk> othermaciej, the definition for caretRangeFromPoint will be rather vague and UI dependent
  358. # [12:55] <zcorpan> othermaciej: has there been changes to xml behavior in safari lately? last time i tested 001 and 002 worked the same and 003 and 004 worked the same
  359. # [12:56] <annevk> i'm still not quite sure how to phrase it
  360. # [12:56] <zcorpan> iirc, anyway
  361. # [12:56] <othermaciej> zcorpan: I was somewhat surprised that 002 crashed
  362. # [12:56] <hsivonen> HTML5 already addresses this, doesn't it?
  363. # [12:57] <hsivonen> the tree builder keeps node references on its stack and potentially keeps appending to nodes that are no longer in the tree
  364. # [12:57] <annevk> hsivonen, it's mentioned
  365. # [12:57] <annevk> not sure if the exact final tree can always be determined
  366. # [12:57] <zcorpan> hsivonen: doesn't cover xml though
  367. # [12:57] <annevk> xml is tricky anyway
  368. # [12:58] <annevk> for some time some browsers did not do incremental rendering or script execution
  369. # [12:58] <hsivonen> zcorpan: seems to me that the XML tree builder also needs to have a stack of node references and avoid trusting that the parentNode chain can be used as stack
  370. # [12:59] <Hixie> i came across all these cases when writing teh html5 parser spec
  371. # [12:59] <Hixie> i probably even blogged about them
  372. # [12:59] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-179-147.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  373. # [12:59] <Lachy> I don't see what's so difficult about the case mentioned in the blog.
  374. # [13:00] <hsivonen> Hixie: I think we need a Web spec that defines an entity resolver and a DOM builder on top of a SAXish XML parser
  375. # [13:00] <othermaciej> the blog was a surprisingly circuitous way of saying that IE will still do something crappy, and other browsers do better, and Travis has a vague opinion on which of the other browser behaviors is better
  376. # [13:01] <Lachy> with my limited testing, Firefox seems to be behaving sensibly
  377. # [13:01] <hsivonen> it seems like there's a policy or habit of not naming competitors on the IE blog
  378. # [13:01] <annevk> Hixie, maybe you can help out defining caretRangeFromPoint?
  379. # [13:01] <othermaciej> I tried his test case in live dom viewer and it seemed that both firefox and safari dropped everything that would have gone in the removed element
  380. # [13:01] <othermaciej> which is not what I expected
  381. # [13:02] <Hixie> othermaciej: they don't drop it
  382. # [13:02] <Hixie> othermaciej: they put them in that element
  383. # [13:02] <Hixie> othermaciej: which is what html5 requires too
  384. # [13:02] <othermaciej> put them in that element which is already removed?
  385. # [13:02] <Hixie> othermaciej: html5's parser doesn't look at the dom at all (except for handling inlines)
  386. # [13:02] <Hixie> othermaciej: the element is still in the parser's stack
  387. # [13:03] <Hixie> you could put it in another document for all the parser cares
  388. # [13:03] <Hixie> anyway
  389. # [13:03] <Hixie> bed time
  390. # [13:03] <Hixie> nn
  391. # [13:04] <othermaciej> that sounds sensible to me
  392. # [13:05] <annevk> othermaciej, any suggestions for caretRangeFromPoint?
  393. # [13:05] <othermaciej> annevk: I dunno
  394. # [13:05] <othermaciej> I very much need to go to bed
  395. # [13:10] <annevk> hmm, i'll try something out
  396. # [13:10] <othermaciej> annevk: so in Safari (and I think we did this for FF/IE compatibility) clicking in a non-editable area creates an invisible caret selection
  397. # [13:11] <othermaciej> you could define caretRangeFromPoint to give the same range as the caret selection you would get clicking there
  398. # [13:11] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-687980bb86005272)
  399. # [13:11] <othermaciej> though perhaps that is too vague
  400. # [13:11] <annevk> "return an empty text range for the position where
  401. # [13:11] <annevk> a text insertion point indicator would have been placed if editing was
  402. # [13:11] <annevk> enabled and hit testing was performed at the coordinates x,y in the viewport"
  403. # [13:11] <annevk> is my start
  404. # [13:12] <othermaciej> that is not bad
  405. # [13:12] <othermaciej> I'm off to bed for now, later
  406. # [13:12] <annevk> bye
  407. # [13:12] <Lachy> wow, it seems the people on HTML4all are accepting that <acronym> isn't in HTML5 now. I thought many of those people objected to its exclusion previously.
  408. # [13:19] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-179-147.dsl.telstraclear.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  409. # [13:26] * Joins: aaronlev (n=chatzill@pD9E4DCD6.dip.t-dialin.net)
  410. # [14:13] * Quits: aaronlev (n=chatzill@pD9E4DCD6.dip.t-dialin.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  411. # [14:14] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-66fd996b690ec073)
  412. # [14:16] <annevk> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/#documentview-caretrangefrompoint
  413. # [14:21] <heycam> annevk, (nit:) missing a comma between "J. Ferraiolo" and "?? ?"
  414. # [14:21] <heycam> in the references section for SVG
  415. # [14:21] <annevk> thx
  416. # [14:21] <annevk> you're not pasting UTF-8 fwiw
  417. # [14:22] <heycam> really? :(
  418. # [14:22] * heycam kicks his x-chat
  419. # [14:23] * heycam wonders where the encoding options might be in x-chat
  420. # [14:25] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@124-168-100-30.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("bye")
  421. # [14:25] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@124-168-100-30.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  422. # [14:29] <heycam> annevk, does this display properly now? 藤沢 淳
  423. # [14:29] <annevk> yes
  424. # [14:29] <heycam> cool
  425. # [14:29] * heycam afks
  426. # [14:34] * hsivonen hopes HotSpot doesn't have some silly max size for the code of one method...
  427. # [14:36] * Joins: aaronlev (n=chatzill@pD9E4DCD6.dip.t-dialin.net)
  428. # [14:37] <Philip`> hsivonen: http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=4262078 ?
  429. # [14:37] <hsivonen> Philip`: ouch
  430. # [14:38] <Philip`> It's not a bug, it's a feature - everyone agrees that methods should rarely be more than a screenful of code
  431. # [14:38] <hsivonen> Philip`: parser state machines are excempt
  432. # [14:38] <hsivonen> exempt
  433. # [14:39] <Philip`> On the subject of generated code, does JavaScript (or common implementations of it) have a maximum regexp size?
  434. # [14:39] <hsivonen> whew. the whole classfile is under 64KB
  435. # [14:40] <Philip`> My tokeniser has a /^(thetasym;|Epsilon;|Omicron;|Upsilon;|...|yen|GT|LT|gt|lt)/ to get longest entity-name matches, but I worry how that'll cope with MathML entities
  436. # [14:44] <hsivonen> which reminds me that I should email the list and complain about the MathML entities
  437. # [14:44] * Philip` notes that Word 2007 appears to neither emit nor accept entities (other than the standard XML ones)
  438. # [14:44] <Philip`> (...in its MathML copy/paste system)
  439. # [14:45] <hsivonen> Word++
  440. # [14:45] <hsivonen> some sanity with entities
  441. # [14:45] <annevk> Philip`, did you include a DTD?
  442. # [14:45] <Philip`> I've not seen it generate numeric entities either, it just does Unicode
  443. # [14:46] <hsivonen> Word++
  444. # [14:46] <annevk> hsivonen, are you against entities?
  445. # [14:46] * annevk likes them a lot for hand authoring
  446. # [14:46] <Philip`> annevk: Whenever I added a DTD, it just pasted as plain text (the same as any normal non-XML paste operation)
  447. # [14:50] <Philip`> (...and the same as any XML paste operation whose root element isn't <math xmlns=whateveritis>)
  448. # [14:51] <annevk> ok
  449. # [14:54] <hsivonen> annevk: adding MathML entities violates our design principles
  450. # [14:54] <hsivonen> annevk: they add a backwards-incompatible way of doing something that can already be done in a backwards-compatibel way
  451. # [14:56] <zcorpan> and there are only 2 persons who are hand authoring mathml anyway
  452. # [14:57] <zcorpan> and even if you are, you can only remember &invisibleTimes; and a few others anyway
  453. # [14:58] <zcorpan> not all 2000
  454. # [14:58] <zcorpan> at which point, looking up the unicode code point becomes as much of a hassle as looking up the mathml entity name
  455. # [14:58] <Philip`> The entities don't make MathML much easier to write, but they do make it much easier to write
  456. # [14:58] <Philip`> Uh
  457. # [14:59] <Philip`> The entities don't make MathML much easier to write, but they do make it much easier to read
  458. # [14:59] <zcorpan> why would you read mathml markup?
  459. # [14:59] <annevk> to change it
  460. # [14:59] <Philip`> i.e. it's easy to see what 'a&invisibleTimes;b' means, but not what 'a&#8213;b' means
  461. # [14:59] <annevk> zcorpan, we need to cater for the copy-and-paste-and-learn authoring crowd
  462. # [14:59] <annevk> it made the Web big
  463. # [15:01] <annevk> (and also for the hand authoring crowd... it's not at all clear that MathML hand authoring will remain a niche market once it becomes more approachable)
  464. # [15:01] <Philip`> (The HTML syntax doesn't seem to make MathML any more approachable)
  465. # [15:02] <annevk> once it's implemented it will
  466. # [15:02] <Philip`> (It's just as verbose, and you can't even tell when you've accidentally missed out an end tag and got your nesting all wrong)
  467. # [15:02] <zcorpan> annevk: entities can be added when there are enough handwriting mathml authors to make it justifyable :)
  468. # [15:02] <Philip`> (so if anything it's harder to write by hand in HTML than in XML)
  469. # [15:02] <annevk> Philip`, i don't think that's the issue, the issue is that making XML documents is way harder
  470. # [15:02] <annevk> zcorpan, chicken/egg
  471. # [15:03] <hsivonen> annevk: Unicode input in an issue between you and your editor. don't bother my browser with it, please
  472. # [15:03] <annevk> zcorpan, and since entities are cheap
  473. # [15:03] <hsivonen> s/in/is/
  474. # [15:03] <annevk> hsivonen, why would i want to write additional scripts for my text editor if the browser can do it?
  475. # [15:04] <annevk> (and if it makes my source code more approachable so i can understand what i wrote later on)
  476. # [15:04] <hsivonen> annevk: why should my browser replace your Character Palette or whatever the Gnome equivalent is called?
  477. # [15:04] <annevk> so that i don't have to write converters myself
  478. # [15:05] <hsivonen> annevk: I think straight Unicode is (apart from invisibleTimes) more readable
  479. # [15:05] <Philip`> annevk: You don't think the verbosity of MathML is an issue for hand-authoring?
  480. # [15:06] * Joins: qwert666 (n=qwert666@acdh200.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)
  481. # [15:06] <annevk> Philip`, I don't know
  482. # [15:06] <annevk> hsivonen, that's hard to type
  483. # [15:07] <annevk> &hellip; is easier for me than looking up the Unicode character
  484. # [15:07] <hsivonen> annevk: not in Mathematica
  485. # [15:07] <hsivonen> annevk: your input method just sucks
  486. # [15:07] <annevk> which typically involves copying from data:text/html,&hellip;
  487. # [15:08] * hsivonen presses option-period
  488. # [15:08] <annevk> hsivonen, that tools will save us is a fallacy imo
  489. # [15:08] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p1215-ipbf3008marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  490. # [15:08] <annevk> i don't think we should design for that when making Web formats
  491. # [15:08] * Philip` often finds it hard to write equations in LaTeX without losing track of all the nested brackets and braces, and MathML adds an order of magnitude more syntax to get in the way
  492. # [15:08] <annevk> they should ideally all be doable using a simple text editor
  493. # [15:09] <annevk> otherwise we might as well get compiled javascript, compiled html+css, etc.
  494. # [15:09] <Philip`> (The only way I can manage is by having the source code and the PDF output side by side, which works alright)
  495. # [15:10] <Philip`> hsivonen: There are many more text editors than there are HTML parsers, so shouldn't the complexity be put in the HTML parsers so it doesn't have to be implemented so many times?
  496. # [15:10] <hsivonen> Philip`: you should put the complexity in the OS input method
  497. # [15:11] <hsivonen> Philip`: Math is complex like Japanese
  498. # [15:11] <hsivonen> Philip`: Math should have an IME, too
  499. # [15:13] <Philip`> hsivonen: How should things like special space characters be handled? They're impossible to edit unless the text editors renders them in some special way (i.e. not as blank spaces), so editors will still have to cope with that complexity
  500. # [15:13] <Philip`> s/renders/render/
  501. # [15:14] <hsivonen> Philip`: they need editor cooperation, yes
  502. # [15:14] <hsivonen> Philip`: Word has had a feature to show formatting characters for ages
  503. # [15:15] <annevk> why require simple text editors to have math support when supporting some additional entities is trivial?
  504. # [15:15] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  505. # [15:15] <annevk> (and is already required for XML content anyway)
  506. # [15:15] <hsivonen> annevk: I'll reply in email to list
  507. # [15:21] <Philip`> The problem with getting the OS to provide a nice input method for Unicode maths symbols is that I don't expect my OS's developers to make a nice input method for that :-p
  508. # [15:22] <Philip`> and if someone did make one, it'd have a silly name and I'd never even hear of it so it wouldn't help me
  509. # [15:22] <annevk> expecting the OS to have an IME for math also doesn't make sense as math requires some kind of markup
  510. # [15:23] <annevk> where Japanese is just characters
  511. # [15:23] <Philip`> I used to have Windows set up so ctrl+shift+9 switched to a Greek keyboard layout, which was quite useful for maths, but I've never worked out how to make KDE do that
  512. # [15:24] <annevk> so while I agree that Japanese requires some complexity I don't think it makes sense to then also require that for stuff like &hellip; or &invisibleTimes;
  513. # [15:24] <annevk> or &euml; etc.
  514. # [15:25] <Philip`> Maths is mostly ASCII with occasional funny symbols, whereas (I assume) Japanese is entirely funny symbols, so it's much easier to convince a Japanese person to learn how to use an IME
  515. # [15:26] <Philip`> (and easier for them to remember how to use it, since they use it all day every day, rather than using it half a dozen times and then not using it again for two weeks and then forgetting how it works)
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  517. # [15:28] <Philip`> (But maybe the IME would still be no harder to learn and remember than the short list of MathML entity names you commonly want to use, in which case that's not a relative disadvantage)
  518. # [15:31] <hsivonen> email sent
  519. # [15:33] <annevk> what triggered this hsivonen?
  520. # [15:33] * annevk is curious
  521. # [15:34] <annevk> never mind
  522. # [15:34] <hsivonen> annevk: hellip has been typable on Apple keyboard layouts since the 1980s! like this …
  523. # [15:35] * hsivonen can also type euml: ë
  524. # [15:35] <Philip`> AltGr+[ e gives me ë
  525. # [15:36] <Philip`> I can write "..." which works perfectly adequately
  526. # [15:36] <Philip`> (Maybe fonts should define a ligature for "...")
  527. # [15:37] <annevk> hsivonen, doesn't work so well for me, and it's not too good for legacy systems, such as dev.w3.org
  528. # [15:37] <annevk> better to stay ascii compatible there
  529. # [15:37] <hsivonen> annevk: even the OS X handwriting recognition can do ë even in the English mode!
  530. # [15:38] <hsivonen> annevk: the input methods on your OS just suck
  531. # [15:38] <hsivonen> and it's a solved problem
  532. # [15:39] <annevk> apparently not
  533. # [15:39] <annevk> also, i just mentioned, dev.w3.org and w3.org docs in general work better if you stay ascii only
  534. # [15:39] <annevk> (that also doesn't address the other arguments pointed out earlier)
  535. # [15:39] <hsivonen> it's sad if w3.org can't do UTF-8
  536. # [15:40] <annevk> it can
  537. # [15:40] <annevk> but by default it would display as ISO-8859-1
  538. # [15:40] <annevk> and lots of times people do just that so sticking with entities is safer
  539. # [15:41] <hsivonen> annevk: do you value that safety over backwards compat?
  540. # [15:42] <zcorpan> annevk: how about changing the default?
  541. # [15:42] <annevk> i would, if browsers support mathml entities i would start using them
  542. # [15:42] <annevk> rendering the &...; string in older clients is acceptable to me
  543. # [15:42] <annevk> zcorpan, they fear that would break too much
  544. # [15:43] <annevk> zcorpan, this is just an example though, i'm sure there's more out there :)
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  549. # [15:57] * Philip` wonders if he should put his canvas tests under some sort of licence
  550. # [15:57] <Philip`> It seems nobody has actually cared about that yet (or at least not complained enough for me to hear)
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  560. # [16:29] <Lachy> I hate entities except for &lt; &gt;, &amp;, &quot;. For everything else, writing the real character is better
  561. # [16:29] <Lachy> makes the source code easier to read when it has the real character instead of some entity ref
  562. # [16:30] <Lachy> oh, and entities for invisible characters like &nbsp; are ok, but normally I prefer the numeric reference
  563. # [16:32] <zcorpan> Lachy: why do you prefer the numeric reference?
  564. # [16:32] <Philip`> Lachy: Do you mean you normally prefer the numeric references including for characters like &nbsp;, or only for non-invisible characters?
  565. # [16:33] <annevk> I think disliking entities is some kind of phase. Just like people disliking text/html
  566. # [16:33] <Philip`> I don't like text/html
  567. # [16:33] <Philip`> It's just less bad than some alternatives
  568. # [16:34] <Philip`> and I'm not sure that's a phase, because it seems quite factual that text/html is ugly and broken :-)
  569. # [16:34] <annevk> Actually, it may be more similar to liking XHTML-in-text/html over HTML-in-text/html
  570. # [16:36] <annevk> Some kind of syntax preference
  571. # [16:36] <takkaria> I've grown to like missing lots of opening and closing tags in text/html
  572. # [16:38] <Philip`> takkaria: Does 'lots' include the html/head/body tags?
  573. # [16:39] <Philip`> (Nowadays I always skip those whenever possible, just to be unconventional)
  574. # [16:39] <takkaria> yeah
  575. # [16:39] <Lachy> zcorpan, when I need an nbsp, I use the numeric reference &#xA0; because. Similarly for any other non-printable charcters I may use.
  576. # [16:39] <takkaria> also </li>, but for some reason not </p>
  577. # [16:40] <Philip`> Lachy: (Did you mean to give a reason after saying "because"?)
  578. # [16:41] <Lachy> because it works in both HTML and XHTML
  579. # [16:41] <Philip`> Ah
  580. # [16:42] <Philip`> It seems easier to just not write XHTML by hand, rather than choosing to make HTML harder to write by hand
  581. # [16:42] <Lachy> but I don't consider it wrong to use them in HTML, and others can use them if they like. It's just my personal prefernce
  582. # [16:43] <Lachy> Although, when it comes to adding additional entities, I really don't see the use case that's being addressed by it and share hsivonen's backward compatibility concerns
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  584. # [16:44] <Philip`> Including adding entities to <math> content?
  585. # [16:45] <Lachy> the only possible reason to allow them is to allow copying and pasting of MathML directly into HTML nad have it work, but that wouldn't work for XHTML anyway without using an XHTML+MathML DOCTYPE that browsers recognised
  586. # [16:45] <Lachy> s/nad/and/
  587. # [16:46] <Philip`> It would be useful to know how many MathML-editing tools generate code with MathML entities, because I assume we want people to be able to copy-and-paste the output from them (modulo XML headers) into HTML
  588. # [16:47] <Philip`> (Namespace prefixes are easy to find-and-replace away, but entities aren't)
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  591. # [16:48] <Lachy> if authors want to hand code and use entities, they should use a pre-processor that replaces them with either numeric references or the real characters
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  593. # [17:11] <annevk> why?
  594. # [17:17] <Lachy> note my previous statement only applies to additional entities that aren't already supported in HTML, and it's because of the backwards compatibility issues
  595. # [17:18] <annevk> the compat issue is minimal imo
  596. # [17:18] <Lachy> the use case for mathml enties is minimal imo too
  597. # [17:18] <Lachy> *entities
  598. # [17:20] <annevk> it helps with hand authoring and porting of some existing mathml content
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  609. # [18:31] <annevk> http://developers.slashdot.org/developers/08/04/24/1455202.shtml
  610. # [18:33] <zcorpan> good that consensus is forming at the WC3
  611. # [18:33] <zcorpan> but what does warcraft3 have to do with html5?
  612. # [18:34] <gsnedders> LOL
  613. # [18:35] <Philip`> It must be referring to the Www Consortium Company inCorporated
  614. # [18:36] <annevk> oh, http://www.sdtimes.com/content/article.aspx?ArticleID=32067 quotes Michael Smith too
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  616. # [18:39] * Dashiva chuckles at "specialized experts"
  617. # [18:39] <Philip`> It's more useful to be a generalised expert
  618. # [18:40] <takkaria> why do people insist on thinking that the canvas API needs experts when it's already implemented mostly-interopably between browsers?
  619. # [18:40] <takkaria> "Some deprecated elements--center, /front/, and striks--were dropped in favour of CSS"
  620. # [18:41] <Philip`> takkaria: Because the canvas API can be extended to do more things (like, say, text, and dashed lines), and it's useful to have people will knowledge/experience/insight/etc when developing that
  621. # [18:42] <Philip`> takkaria: s/striks/strike/
  622. # [18:42] <Philip`> and s/favour/favor/
  623. # [18:42] <Philip`> those being your typos, not the article's :-p
  624. # [18:42] <takkaria> yeah, the paste was only half-complete. :)
  625. # [18:43] <hsivonen> nice to read Microsoft's position and the WG consensus from Slashdot
  626. # [18:44] <takkaria> Philip`: fair point. I always got a slightly different vibe, though, along the lines of "hmm, we need experts to design a graphics API" regardless of the current spec and implementation
  627. # [18:44] <Philip`> Anyway, seems like there isn't really any new information there - people think HTML5 is too large, and it would be easier to manage if there were smaller specs, but Hixie is too useful and everybody wants to let him do it all
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  630. # [18:47] <Philip`> takkaria: Experts could also be considered useful for making the API spec more precise and correct and complete, without changing the actual API
  631. # [18:48] <Philip`> But I do agree the vibe you get seems reasonable given what people have said, though I don't know whether it's correct or not, but anyway it's pretty easy to ignore people who want to make incompatible API changes because that's just not going to happen
  632. # [18:50] <Philip`> At least nobody seems to have suggested that we need architectural consistency between canvas and SVG
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  636. # [18:58] <takkaria> Philip`: I think they have, actually, but briefly and have been ignored
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  638. # [19:01] <annevk> hsivonen, indeed :)
  639. # [19:02] <annevk> Philip`, to the extent possible we need arhictectural consistency imo
  640. # [19:03] <annevk> Philip`, that is, allow for as much backend code reuse as possible
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  644. # [19:08] <Philip`> annevk: It depends on how far back you consider the backend to be - it's good to share the drawing primitives (like using Cairo for both), but not good to redefine canvas in terms of SVG (or vice versa) (because that would certainly make the specs consistent, but wouldn't help implementations)
  645. # [19:08] <Philip`> so I would just be worried if people suggested the latter option :-)
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  648. # [19:09] <annevk> Philip`, your definition of architectural consistency scarely resembles that of some members of the Forms WG
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  650. # [19:11] <Philip`> It usually sounds to me like their idea of architectural consistency is to redefine HTML forms in terms of the XForms processing model
  651. # [19:11] <Philip`> (hence being sort of analogous to redefining canvas in terms of SVG)
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  677. # [21:29] <gsnedders> Anyone want to write RFC 4291 Version 5?
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  681. # [22:20] <Hixie> hsivonen: i don't understand what an "entity resolver and a DOM builder on top of a SAXish XML parser" would be
  682. # [22:24] <Lachy> Hixie, wouldn't that be a rough description of what the HTML5 parsing spec is?
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  685. # [22:26] <annevk> Hixie, basically, a spec that says how to create a DOM tree, when to execute scripts, what happens with entity references that can't be resolved, etc.
  686. # [22:26] <Hixie> oh
  687. # [22:26] <Hixie> isn't that xml5
  688. # [22:27] <annevk> yeah, though I guess hsivonen was hinting at something like that for XML 1.0
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  690. # [22:28] <hsivonen> Hixie: the entity resolver part would make Gecko's entity catalog normative
  691. # [22:28] * gsnedders keeps on saying he'll doing something about helping with XML5, then never does
  692. # [22:28] <hsivonen> Hixie: the DOM builder part would specify that the DOM builder must maintain its own node stack and must not rely on being able to follow parentNode o pop
  693. # [22:28] <hsivonen> on pop
  694. # [22:29] <Hixie> yeah
  695. # [22:29] <Hixie> it would be great for xml1.0 to have a well-defined parser spec, yes
  696. # [22:29] <hsivonen> it shouldn't even be hard to write
  697. # [22:29] <Philip`> Would it be harder to convince people to implement it?
  698. # [22:30] <Hixie> i'm declaring this "not my problem"
  699. # [22:30] <gsnedders> My main issue is the only place where I'd ship such a thing is written in PHP. Userland code is slowwww.
  700. # [22:31] <hsivonen> Philip`: if HTML 5 made Gecko's entity resover behavior normative for XHTML5, I'd implement it in Java in a reusable way
  701. # [22:32] <Lachy> hsivonen, would that require the use of magic PUBLIC identifiers in DOCTYPES to enable the feature?
  702. # [22:33] <hsivonen> Lachy: yes
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The end :)