/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-04-29 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Apr 29 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:03] * Quits: qwert666_ (n=qwert666@acap154.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) ("Leaving")
  4. # [00:04] <fantasai> Hixie: note that the Web Forms spec explicitly requires Unicode case-folding.
  5. # [00:04] <Hixie> yeah wf2 is old and crusty
  6. # [00:04] <fantasai> if you're not sure you want that (seemed from your message to hsivonen that you didn't) you should probably remove it
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  9. # [00:21] <htmlfivedotnet> Hixie: Did you just read a blog post about why html5 is great for blogs, thus leading to your comment? I just wonder if it was my recent post out of some strange coincidence
  10. # [00:22] <Hixie> fantasai: wf2 will be merged with html5 in due course, until then it's frozen
  11. # [00:22] <Hixie> htmlfivedotnet: no idea which blog it was
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  16. # [00:37] <annevk> no gta4 for me tonight
  17. # [00:38] <annevk> line was just too long
  18. # [00:38] <Hixie> amazon is shipping it to me tomorrow
  19. # [00:38] <Hixie> it's already on a truck somewhere
  20. # [00:38] <Philip`> annevk: Was there a midnight release?
  21. # [00:38] <annevk> yeah
  22. # [00:39] <annevk> but i was too late because i was going to see a movie and since i have to get up early tomorrow waiting until 2AM or something didn't seem like a feasible plan
  23. # [00:39] <Philip`> Was that like the PS3 release where everybody was beating each other up to get ahead in the line, or was it like the Wii release where everyone make cookies for each other?
  24. # [00:40] <annevk> it was a normal line
  25. # [00:40] <Philip`> Oh, how unexciting
  26. # [00:40] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@guest-226.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  27. # [00:40] <Hixie> what's the origin of a Document whose URI is about:blank?
  28. # [00:42] <annevk> the Access-Control-Origin is "null"
  29. # [00:43] <annevk> unless it's inside some <iframe> I suppose and it gets the origin from somewhere else
  30. # [00:43] <Hixie> that's what i mean
  31. # [00:43] <jwalden> that doesn't jibe with HTML5's origin for about:blank-spawned windows
  32. # [00:44] <Hixie> html5 doesn't define about:blank origin at the moment
  33. # [00:44] <Hixie> there's a big red box for that case
  34. # [00:44] <Hixie> i just added it
  35. # [00:44] <annevk> I suppose it's kind of hard to get an about:blank and initiate some kind of cross-site request without having it associated with some other origin :)
  36. # [00:44] <jwalden> oh, I'm thinking of javascript:
  37. # [00:44] <Hixie> on another note, i just defined how document.domain works
  38. # [00:44] <jwalden> ooh
  39. # [00:44] * jwalden looks
  40. # [00:44] * Parts: fantasai (i=fantasai@connectionreset.info) ("laters")
  41. # [00:45] <Hixie> search for "Effective script origin" for the juicy bits
  42. # [00:45] <Hixie> and if you have a better term than "effective script origin", let me know
  43. # [00:47] <jwalden> what happened to the multipage version? the URL seems awol right now
  44. # [00:47] <jwalden> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/
  45. # [00:48] <annevk> changelog: http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=1501&to=1502
  46. # [00:48] <Hixie> uh
  47. # [00:48] <Hixie> dunno
  48. # [00:48] <Hixie> will try to fix
  49. # [00:50] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.172)
  50. # [00:50] <jwalden> I think the port part doesn't match what Moz does (it uses the port, but I'm not sure how), but I don't think anyone will care
  51. # [00:51] <jwalden> we do have a bug against this, tho, in that we allow "example.org/foo/bar/baz" I think right now, being equivalent to "example.org" :-(
  52. # [00:51] <Hixie> as far as i can tell, mozilla ignores the port once you set document.domain, no?
  53. # [00:52] <jwalden> ...I'm not sure
  54. # [00:52] <Hixie> yeah i decided to err on the side of safety with not allowing path components
  55. # [00:52] <Hixie> since webkit doesn't do it
  56. # [00:52] <jwalden> I can't see a good reason to allow them
  57. # [00:52] <Hixie> so i'm guessing it's not needed for web compat
  58. # [00:52] <jwalden> I'm sort of scared that we do, actually
  59. # [00:52] <Hixie> heh
  60. # [00:52] <Hixie> i know the feeling :-)
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  62. # [00:52] <Hixie> multipage is fixed
  63. # [00:53] <jwalden> the port thing I know we were using the value with a SetHostPort call at one time, until we discovered that method wasn't implemented and reverted to string-buildup
  64. # [00:53] <jwalden> but how a specified port affects anything, I don't know
  65. # [00:53] <jwalden> it might not
  66. # [00:54] <Hixie> oh you mean specifying it in document.domain?
  67. # [00:54] <Hixie> interesting
  68. # [00:54] <Hixie> from what i saw of the webkit source, that definitely isn't supported over there
  69. # [00:55] <Hixie> i think that for the purposes of XHR, 'origin' is now well-defined in all cases except about:blank iframes
  70. # [00:55] <Hixie> and windows
  71. # [00:55] <annevk> I recall we have some dragons around there too. I should probably get Hallvord to review...
  72. # [00:56] <jwalden> is "manual override" yet to be defined?
  73. # [00:56] <Hixie> no
  74. # [00:56] <Hixie> it's just a value
  75. # [00:57] <Hixie> that isn't a port number
  76. # [00:57] <jwalden> should define "same" then with respect to it
  77. # [00:57] <Hixie> "manual override" is the same as "manual override" but not anything else
  78. # [00:57] <Hixie> do i need to say that?
  79. # [00:57] <jwalden> er
  80. # [00:57] <jwalden> I'm stupid
  81. # [00:57] <jwalden> ignore me!
  82. # [00:57] <Hixie> heh
  83. # [00:57] <Hixie> :-/
  84. # [00:58] * jwalden is forgetting about symmetry
  85. # [00:58] <Hixie> jwalden: on another note, you sent feedback saying that document.open() doesn't reset the origin, but as far as i can tell, the spec doesn't let you call .open() unless your origin is the same anyway
  86. # [00:58] <Hixie> although now i guess the origin could be changed by a script that was document.domain'ed the same
  87. # [00:59] * jwalden shall have to re-page that in
  88. # [00:59] <Hixie> but i don't think it really matters much in that case...
  89. # [00:59] <Hixie> i can just reply to the mail if you'd rather
  90. # [01:01] <jwalden> yeah, looking back I'm not sure what I was thinking there
  91. # [01:02] <Hixie> k
  92. # [01:02] <Hixie> i'll reply saying i'm ignoring you, and if you or someone else decides i'm wrong, i'm sure you or they will reply :-)
  93. # [01:03] <jwalden> there was a funky postMessage test sicking requested that was that situation, and which my initial implementation tickled, but I can't rationalize the question given that and how things should actually work otherwise
  94. # [01:04] <Hixie> did we decide if MessageEvent.origin should be in punycode (like document.domain) or fully Unicode?
  95. # [01:05] <jwalden> I wanted fully Unicode
  96. # [01:05] <annevk> no
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  98. # [01:05] <jwalden> but no, no decision
  99. # [01:05] <jwalden> wait
  100. # [01:05] * jwalden looks again
  101. # [01:05] <annevk> punycode is also consistent with Access-Control-Origin (though that's mostly because of HTTP limitations)
  102. # [01:06] <jwalden> we restrict document.domain to only be settable to puncode?
  103. # [01:06] <jwalden> I don't really like that
  104. # [01:06] <Hixie> well, the spec as written now does
  105. # [01:06] <Hixie> i guess i haven't checked browsers
  106. # [01:06] * jwalden sees what Moz does with IDN
  107. # [01:07] <jwalden> I think we accept IDN
  108. # [01:07] <Hixie> yup
  109. # [01:07] <Hixie> looks like you do, from testing on ☺.damowmow.com
  110. # [01:07] <Hixie> oh actually i was testing safari
  111. # [01:07] <Hixie> so i guess i should change the spec
  112. # [01:08] <jwalden> http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla/source/dom/tests/mochitest/dom-level0/idn_child.html?force=1
  113. # [01:08] <jwalden> we allow IDN
  114. # [01:08] <Hixie> ok will change that too
  115. # [01:09] <jwalden> cool
  116. # [01:09] <Hixie> it just returns punycode though
  117. # [01:09] <Hixie> which was really my question
  118. # [01:09] <jwalden> I think I'd prefer returning Unicode, but I don't know what we do now
  119. # [01:10] <jwalden> I think what we return depends on whether the TLD in question is whitelisted :-(
  120. # [01:10] <Hixie> well i'll let y'all work it out while i actually get my ass to work
  121. # [01:10] <Hixie> since i just noticed it's past 4pm
  122. # [01:10] <Philip`> Hixie: Why is it not currently working?
  123. # [01:10] <jwalden> and I very much prefer Unicode to an unpredictable value
  124. # [01:11] <jwalden> and Unicode seems the most consistent choice here
  125. # [01:11] <annevk> just need a tool so that authors can convert between the two easily
  126. # [01:12] <jwalden> and at runtime as well, then; requiring authors in the long term to have to think about punycode doesn't seem very nice
  127. # [01:13] <annevk> right
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  130. # [01:41] <Hixie> unicode it shall be
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  171. # [05:20] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  172. # [05:20] * Set by gsnedders on Tue Dec 18 21:41:19
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  203. # [09:40] <zokka> hello
  204. # [09:42] <Hixie> is either of adam barth or collin jackson here?
  205. # [09:43] <Hixie> i have some thoughts on the frame navigation policy
  206. # [09:43] <Hixie> in particular, i just noticed that while window.open() in html5 currently implements the child-restriction policy, the window.frames[] API is completely origin-blocked, so you can't navigate frames anyway
  207. # [09:44] <zokka> hello hixie i am new
  208. # [09:44] <Hixie> hello
  209. # [09:44] <Hixie> welcome :-)
  210. # [09:44] <zokka> Don't fully understand wot you are saying though
  211. # [09:45] <zokka> came here to make some suggestions though doesnt seem to be anyone here
  212. # [09:45] <zokka> apart from you that is :D
  213. # [09:46] <hsivonen> zokka: if you want to suggest something, it's good that Hixie is here
  214. # [09:46] <zokka> does anyone bother to use <ins> and <del>
  215. # [09:46] <Hixie> a few
  216. # [09:46] <Hixie> not many
  217. # [09:46] <Hixie> <ins> slightly more than <del> iirc
  218. # [09:46] <zokka> <del> is nasty
  219. # [09:46] <hsivonen> and even then mostly inline
  220. # [09:46] <zokka> i was thinking
  221. # [09:47] <zokka> why not have a new attribute for things like <p>
  222. # [09:47] <zokka> called datetime
  223. # [09:47] <Hixie> yeah, we considered that
  224. # [09:47] <Hixie> but since people use <ins> and <del> so rarely it seemed pointless to work on making them mildly better :-)
  225. # [09:48] <zokka> i thought they may use it more if it was on <p> most ppl use that and you can use browser features to highlight changes
  226. # [09:48] <zokka> it seems nasty to add changes using <ins>
  227. # [09:48] <zokka> maybe for a few words
  228. # [09:49] <zokka> well i am just an amateur :D
  229. # [09:49] <Hixie> i think if people wanted the feature, they'd use <ins> and complain
  230. # [09:49] <Hixie> instead of just not using <ins>
  231. # [09:49] <Hixie> that seems to be the way web authors work :-)
  232. # [09:50] <zokka> yep
  233. # [09:50] <zokka> some ppl just use <div> most the time :D
  234. # [09:51] <zokka> i hate the <object> tag i hear they are replacing it with <video>, <audio> etc
  235. # [09:51] <othermaciej> Hixie: they are more likely to be around at more normal-person times in PST
  236. # [09:52] <Hixie> i'll just bring it up when i have lunch with collin on wednesday i guess
  237. # [09:52] <Hixie> zokka: they is us :-)
  238. # [09:53] <zokka> liek i say i am an amateur but i've had real trouble using object to insert video it's just so complicated plus firefox crashes alot
  239. # [09:54] <zokka> for instance there are like 2-3 ways to link to the same video arnt there
  240. # [09:56] <zokka> stop me if i am wrong :D
  241. # [09:58] <othermaciej> Hixie: can't window.open() bypass the origin-blockedness of window.frames[] by targetting a deep subframe by name?
  242. # [09:58] <othermaciej> or is that just an issue for a generic frame name lookup algorithm which avoids this?
  243. # [09:58] <othermaciej> (not up to speed on relevant parts of the spec)
  244. # [09:59] <othermaciej> Hixie: btw I'm not sure it's good for document.domain changes not to propagate to about:blank children (I am guessing that is the only upshot of copying instead of referencing the parent/opener's origin)
  245. # [10:00] <othermaciej> or at least, I don't think propagating it is a security risk, and it avoids the chance that you will accidentally make your own about:blank subframes inaccessible
  246. # [10:00] <othermaciej> (I guess technically you can change their document.domain first, then your own)
  247. # [10:00] <hsivonen> zokka: markup up the kind of edits that ins/del don't cover gets complex fast for little gain
  248. # [10:00] <Hixie> othermaciej: yes, window.open() right now is subject to the child-navigation policy (i'm changing it to ancestor as we speak)
  249. # [10:00] <Hixie> othermaciej: but .frames[] right now (which is what they use in all their examples) is completely blocked in the spec (which is an oversight(
  250. # [10:01] <Hixie> ))
  251. # [10:01] <zokka> yes hsivonen i agree with that i was wondering why do you use <object data="video.avi" instead of src?
  252. # [10:01] <Hixie> i guess .frames[]-type access needs to be limited to the descendant-navigation policy too
  253. # [10:01] <Hixie> which is subtly different from same-origin
  254. # [10:01] <Hixie> and will be quite exciting
  255. # [10:02] <othermaciej> I hate subtle security policies
  256. # [10:03] <Hixie> yeah
  257. # [10:03] <Hixie> i guess the other option is to make .frames[] always accessible and limit .location
  258. # [10:03] <zokka> em could you guys link to wot you are saying so i can go over it at a later date please?
  259. # [10:04] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/
  260. # [10:05] <zokka> kk thxs:|
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  262. # [10:07] <hsivonen> zokka: data on object is a weird thing from a decade ago. my guess is that whoever wrote the proposal for <object> back then wasn't too concerned about consistency with the rest of HTML
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  265. # [10:10] <othermaciej> Hixie: why can't frames just be subject to the same-origin check?
  266. # [10:12] <Hixie> i thought that broke the web
  267. # [10:12] <Hixie> am i wrong?
  268. # [10:13] <Hixie> i'd love to leave it if that's an option
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  271. # [10:15] <othermaciej> oh, I don't actually know, I thought you knew a specific reason it broke the web
  272. # [10:15] <othermaciej> lemme see what we do for it
  273. # [10:16] <othermaciej> we just make frames a self-reference, not checked for security
  274. # [10:16] <othermaciej> not sure if we check access to the contents for same-origin
  275. # [10:16] <Hixie> yeah when i say frames[] i mean the window [[Get]]-by-index behaviour
  276. # [10:19] <othermaciej> yeah index access is done without security check, not sure why, but I assume there is a reason
  277. # [10:19] <othermaciej> (if only copying other browsers)
  278. # [10:19] <othermaciej> that sucks
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  280. # [10:20] <Hixie> no check at all?
  281. # [10:20] <Hixie> how about .location.href ?
  282. # [10:21] <othermaciej> read access to that is checked (probably not write access since you can assign to location without same-origin priveleges)
  283. # [10:21] <Hixie> sounds like you're vulnerable to the 1999 Georgi Guninski citibank attack then
  284. # [10:22] <othermaciej> well I am just reading the code here, not testing
  285. # [10:22] <Hixie> whereby a site can just walk the frame hierarchy and set a subframe to point to another site and spoof a password form
  286. # [10:22] <othermaciej> but I will check that out
  287. # [10:22] <othermaciej> Hixie: ah, I am wrong
  288. # [10:23] <othermaciej> we do our usual cross-frame navigation check (different from same-origin check) on assigning location.href
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  290. # [10:24] <Hixie> ah interesting
  291. # [10:24] <Hixie> so you can walk the hierarchy
  292. # [10:24] <Hixie> but not assign
  293. # [10:24] <Hixie> so you could postMessage() to any frame
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  295. # [10:28] <othermaciej> that appears to be the case (again not tested)
  296. # [10:29] * Joins: zokka (n=SAMUS@88-106-206-225.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com)
  297. # [10:29] <Hixie> interesting
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  299. # [10:30] <Hixie> that's easier to specify i think
  300. # [10:30] <Hixie> so good
  301. # [10:30] <zokka> i wont bother you guys too much but how come on http://www.w3schools.com/tags/html5_embed.asp it says the embed tag is new?
  302. # [10:30] <zokka> i thought it was a old netscape tag
  303. # [10:31] <Hixie> they probably mean new to the standards
  304. # [10:31] <Hixie> html4 didn't have it
  305. # [10:31] <Hixie> even though browsers supported it
  306. # [10:31] <zokka> i thought they where getting rid of it
  307. # [10:32] <othermaciej> browsers getting rid of it? no
  308. # [10:33] <zokka> just that there are all these ppl trying to use complicated work around for <object?
  309. # [10:33] <zokka> so they didnt have to use <embed> because it wasnt standards compliated
  310. # [10:34] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  311. # [10:35] <Hixie> zokka: yeah
  312. # [10:35] <Hixie> zokka: we figured we should just make it standards compliant :-)
  313. # [10:35] <zokka> cool :D
  314. # [10:35] <zokka> because i hate it when the workarounds are so complicated or use aload of javascript
  315. # [10:36] <zokka> anyway the <video> tag should be nice i recon this time around the browser makers will get it right
  316. # [10:37] <zokka> i recon ie will have perfect implatation next time round :D
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  319. # [10:52] <Hixie> othermaciej: what else do you allow cross-origin access to? .top? .parent?
  320. # [10:53] <othermaciej> Hixie: this gives a first-order approximation: http://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/WebCore/page/DOMWindow.idl?format=txt
  321. # [10:53] <Hixie> thx
  322. # [10:53] <othermaciej> (methods and attribtues marked DoNotCheckDomainSecurity)
  323. # [10:54] <othermaciej> but magical lookup rules (indexed or named lookup) are handled in custom code
  324. # [10:54] <othermaciej> and some objects that are accessible restrict all of their own methods and properties
  325. # [10:54] <othermaciej> and some things have custom implementations that do their own security checks
  326. # [10:54] <Hixie> what's [CheckNodeSecurity]?
  327. # [10:54] <Hixie> wow, you allow a lot more than html5 does
  328. # [10:55] <othermaciej> I am not sure those are all essential to allow
  329. # [10:55] <othermaciej> CheckNodeSecurity does a security check based on the containing frame elemet's window's origin instead of this window's origin
  330. # [10:55] <Hixie> lordy
  331. # [10:56] <othermaciej> (I think there might be other similar uses, like contentDocument on frames)
  332. # [10:56] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@pat-tdc.opera.com)
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  336. # [11:26] <hsivonen> annevk: I'm going to make an XTech slide about Validator.nu server side being ready for AC
  337. # [11:26] <hsivonen> annevk: are there any experimental browser builds I should mention?
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  348. # [13:02] <Hixie> i'm having issues with the spec gen script not handling the size of the spec
  349. # [13:02] <Hixie> sigh
  350. # [13:05] <zcorpan_> Hixie: drop the mathml entities :P
  351. # [13:05] <Hixie> heh
  352. # [13:05] <Hixie> i'm not sure they're in the spec as the spec gen sees it
  353. # [13:05] <Lachy> Hixie, are the problems just performance issues, or is it breaking in other ways?
  354. # [13:06] <Hixie> it's sometimes dying half way
  355. # [13:07] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-4d1af1508c746615)
  356. # [13:07] <Philip`> Sounds like a compelling reason to split HTML5 into multiple specifications
  357. # [13:08] <zcorpan_> sounds like a compelling reason to roll your own spec gen
  358. # [13:08] <Lachy> Hixie, just pull out the sections you're planning to drop, like data templates
  359. # [13:09] <Philip`> Lachy: They're not in the HTML5 spec
  360. # [13:09] <Lachy> were the already removed?
  361. # [13:09] <Philip`> Oh wait
  362. # [13:09] <Philip`> I'm confused and wrong
  363. # [13:10] <Philip`> and thinking of repetition templates instead
  364. # [13:10] <Philip`> so please choose to ignore me
  365. # [13:10] <Lachy> I already ignore you :-P
  366. # [13:10] <Hixie> yeah i should drop the data templates stuff
  367. # [13:10] <Hixie> was gonna wait until i dropped repetition, though
  368. # [13:12] <Philip`> Hixie: "The owner is URI that redirected to the javascript: URI." - s//the /
  369. # [13:13] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  370. # [13:13] <Hixie> fixed
  371. # [13:14] <Hixie> woot
  372. # [13:14] <Hixie> i have dealt with all the feedback i know of on origin
  373. # [13:15] <Lachy> awesome. what's next?
  374. # [13:16] <Hixie> dunno. any requests?
  375. # [13:16] <Hixie> i was thinking of adding text to canvas
  376. # [13:16] <Philip`> Fix <font> and style? :-)
  377. # [13:17] <Hixie> Philip`: how good are canvas implementations at the moment? good enough to handle more new features, or are they still quite buggy?
  378. # [13:17] <Lachy> oh yeah, drop the font element already
  379. # [13:17] <Hixie> yeah i could do font and style=""
  380. # [13:17] <Hixie> was probably gonna wait til i got to the rendering section though
  381. # [13:17] <Hixie> which is like the last priority other than references
  382. # [13:17] <Philip`> <font> seems to cause a number of people to think badly of HTML5
  383. # [13:18] <Hixie> they'll live
  384. # [13:18] <Philip`> so it seems kind of sensible to try fixing it now, rather than leaving people with an incorrect impression of how HTML5 is likely to end up
  385. # [13:18] <Hixie> i guess
  386. # [13:21] <Hixie> the problem with the style="" attribute is that i don't have a solution
  387. # [13:22] <Hixie> other than the concept of a less good conformance level, which as hsivonen points out, is a bad idea for oh so many reasons
  388. # [13:23] <Philip`> Hixie: Now that everyone's doing getImageData/putImageData, I think they've all got pretty much all the features implemented, and I'm not currently aware of any particular major bugs (except that ImageData probably varies quite a bit, and I don't know how large the compatible intersection is, since I haven't really looked at any of this since last year)
  389. # [13:23] <Hixie> oh, really
  390. # [13:23] <Hixie> interesting
  391. # [13:24] <Hixie> so do you think we could add text without compromising existing bug fixing efforts?
  392. # [13:24] <zcorpan_> Hixie: just allow style='' everywhere but say that the document must still be usable when all style=''s are ignored
  393. # [13:24] <Hixie> zcorpan_: i guess we could do that
  394. # [13:24] <Philip`> (There's loads of tiny bugs, like handling Infinity/NaN inconsistently, but I'm guessing they don't affect interoperability urgently)
  395. # [13:24] <Lachy> Hixie, what's the reasons for not making style="" conforming?
  396. # [13:25] <Hixie> Lachy: same reasons for not making <Font> conforming
  397. # [13:25] <Lachy> is it just because it's non-semantic?
  398. # [13:25] <Lachy> and presentational
  399. # [13:25] <Hixie> it being non-semantic isn't the actual reason, but it's the proxy for the reason that people can rally behind, yes
  400. # [13:26] <Hixie> it's the same reason <font size=3 color=blue> is bad
  401. # [13:26] <Hixie> it can't be repurposed, it's not maintainable, it is media-specific, etc
  402. # [13:26] <Lachy> right
  403. # [13:28] <zcorpan_> i think <font color> isn't technically bad as <b>/<i>-like annotations, although people hate <font> so i guess it makes sense to not allow it
  404. # [13:28] <Hixie> as far as i can tell, i have no <font> element feedback
  405. # [13:28] <Philip`> Hixie: That probably depends on how much time implementors will have before their next releases - it seems like most will have around a year or so, which sounds like it wouldn't be rushing much, so I'd expect it wouldn't impact much on bug-fixing of old features
  406. # [13:28] <Hixie> and only 4 e-mails on style="", one of which i just wrote (containing zcorpan_'s suggestion above)
  407. # [13:29] <Philip`> But I know very little about browser development cycles, so I could be totally wrong :-)
  408. # [13:29] <Hixie> Philip`: k
  409. # [13:30] <Hixie> i guess i should sleep now anyway
  410. # [13:31] * Philip` thinks style="" makes things easier to maintain rather than harder, because he can look at the element he wants to change and then change it and then it works, instead of having to follow invisible back-references into stylesheets and then hoping it won't have side-effects on anything else in the site
  411. # [13:32] <Philip`> (...assuming the alternative to style="" is using selectors in stylesheets to associate styles and elements)
  412. # [13:36] <Philip`> Hixie: http://xhtml.com/en/future/x-html-5-versus-xhtml-2/#x5-uncool-font has <font> element feedback - it's just not cool
  413. # [13:36] <Hixie> heh
  414. # [13:36] <Hixie> the maintenance thing is fine if that's the only element with that style
  415. # [13:37] <Hixie> but that's only going to be the case on small pages that aren't part of big sites, etc
  416. # [13:41] <zcorpan_> news-like announcements often have use-once style
  417. # [13:41] <zcorpan_> that's where i've used style='' before
  418. # [13:43] <Philip`> <input size> is used when people want one-off presentational attributes
  419. # [13:44] <Philip`> (though HTML5 says they can't write that, so they'd have to do it pointlessly verbosely like <input style="width:10em">)
  420. # [13:44] <zcorpan_> (css also doesn't have a proper alternative to size='')
  421. # [13:45] <Philip`> and it doesn't make sense to extract that into an external stylesheet since it's different for every form you make (depending on how much text you expect people to enter into the form)
  422. # [13:48] <Philip`> Big sites aren't all homogeneous, and they're still going to have lots of one-off bits of code
  423. # [13:48] <Philip`> so it's nice to have some way to handle that, and just put up with people who abuse it and cause maintenace pain to themselves :-)
  424. # [13:49] <Philip`> s//n/
  425. # [13:50] <zcorpan_> Philip`: yeah
  426. # [13:55] <Lachy> I need to write an example script using .querySelector(). Does anyone have any suggestions for a trivial, yet somewhat practical example I could write?
  427. # [13:58] <Philip`> Lachy: document.querySelector('img[src$=".png"]').forEach(function (img) { img.style.filter = 'progid:DXImageTransform.Microsoft.AlphaImageLoader(src='+img.src+')' });
  428. # [13:58] <Philip`> Maybe not quite trivial enough...
  429. # [13:59] <Philip`> Do you want something that's not just getElementById or getElementsByClassName?
  430. # [13:59] <Lachy> yeah, and preferably something that would be relevant to Opera's implementation
  431. # [14:00] <Lachy> an IE hack unfortnately isn't
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  433. # [14:00] <zcorpan_> Philip`: that would be pointless since only ie6 needs the filter and ie6 doesn't support querySelector
  434. # [14:00] <Philip`> zcorpan_: Yeah, I guess that's a minor problem with that example
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  436. # [14:02] <Philip`> I suppose document.querySelector('input[required][value=""]) isn't that useful in Opera either :-(
  437. # [14:02] <Lachy> it would help if the editor of the selectors api spec hadn't filled it with such contrived examples!
  438. # [14:03] <Philip`> The spec must have been written for certain use cases, so why not just use those? :-)
  439. # [14:03] <Hixie> i try to base the examples in html5 on what people mention as their use cases
  440. # [14:03] <Lachy> I have one using input elements for checkboxes: "input:checked"
  441. # [14:03] <zcorpan_> perhaps querySelector can be used for aria stuff
  442. # [14:05] <zcorpan_> although most authors don't know about aria so it would likely just be a distraction
  443. # [14:05] <Lachy> yeah, I guess I could take a look at previous mailing list discussions about it to see what came up.
  444. # [14:05] <Philip`> var tds = document.getElementById('graphdata').querySelector('td:last-of-type'); tds.forEach(function (td) { var value = td.textContent; td.innerHTML = '<img src="bar.png" style="width:'+value+'px" alt="'+value+'">' });
  445. # [14:06] <Philip`> (for converting a numerical table into a graphicalised version)
  446. # [14:06] <Lachy> or look at what people are using the equivalent JQuery APIs for, but it's kind of hard to ask google "Show me all pages that use the JQuery API script"
  447. # [14:06] <Philip`> (Maybe Opera is too rubbish to have forEach, though)
  448. # [14:07] <Philip`> Lachy: It would be convenient if you had a collection of loads of web pages that you could grep
  449. # [14:08] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-3ae6fa182275a252)
  450. # [14:09] <Lachy> Philip`, that wouldn't work anyway, since the .forEach method isn't implemented on NodeLists. It would need to be converted to an array first.
  451. # [14:10] <Philip`> Lachy: http://philip.html5.org/misc/jquery-pages.txt has some that match /<script[^>]*jquery/
  452. # [14:10] <Philip`> Lachy: Oh, maybe Array.forEach(tds, function ...) then
  453. # [14:14] <Lachy> Philip`, thanks. That's a useful list.
  454. # [14:15] <Philip`> I have another four hundred if that list is too short :-)
  455. # [14:15] * krijnh also has some jQuery examples, if needed :)
  456. # [14:16] <Philip`> jQuery: More popular than <cite>!
  457. # [14:17] <Philip`> That'd be a great marketing slogan
  458. # [14:17] <Philip`> Woah, it's even more popular than <csobj>
  459. # [14:17] * Philip` waits for webgrep to finish making the list grow
  460. # [14:18] <Lachy> krijnh, I'm sure they'll be useful for me in the future
  461. # [14:18] <Lachy> what's <csobj>?
  462. # [14:18] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  463. # [14:18] <Philip`> Some GoLive component thing
  464. # [14:25] <Hixie> <font> is gone
  465. # [14:25] <Hixie> style="" is global
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  467. # [14:35] <hsivonen> Hixie: there should be <fond> feedback from me asking for <font color> to become conforming
  468. # [14:36] <Hixie> ah
  469. # [14:36] <Hixie> might have gotten filed elsewhere
  470. # [14:39] <Philip`> Fond feedback?
  471. # [14:40] <hsivonen> font
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  474. # [14:42] <Philip`> Is the empty string a valid CSS declaration?
  475. # [14:42] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-166-56.dsl.telstraclear.net) (Client Quit)
  476. # [14:42] <Hixie> yes
  477. # [14:42] <Philip`> Ah, good
  478. # [14:43] <Philip`> Lachy: http://philip.html5.org/misc/jquery-pages.txt has a load more now
  479. # [14:44] <Lachy> Philip`, thanks. But I've got a good example now
  480. # [14:46] <Hixie> nn
  481. # [14:46] <Philip`> jQuery: More popular than <caption>!
  482. # [14:48] <zcorpan_> Philip`: makes sense, <caption> is pretty boring
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  484. # [14:49] <Philip`> More popular than <blink> too, and that isn't pretty boring
  485. # [14:50] <zcorpan_> perhaps we should make <blink> animate so that it looks just as cool as jquery animations, to get some competition
  486. # [14:52] <Philip`> It'll have to go a long way to catch up with <marquee>
  487. # [14:58] <zcorpan_> <marquee>: More popular than jQuery!
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  494. # [15:40] <zcorpan_> html5-elements r28: -<font>, +style, +onstorage, +data-*
  495. # [15:40] <Philip`> HTML5: Infinitely more attributes than HTML4!
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  500. # [16:09] <hsivonen> Philip`: that was already true with <embed>
  501. # [16:09] <hsivonen> twice infinitely more attributes than HTML4!
  502. # [16:12] <Philip`> hsivonen: But <embed> wasn't in HTML4
  503. # [16:13] <zcorpan_> Philip`: that's why it was already true with <embed>...
  504. # [16:13] <Philip`> Huh?
  505. # [16:13] <Philip`> Oh
  506. # [16:13] <Philip`> I thought you meant <embed> in HTML4
  507. # [16:14] <Philip`> hsivonen: To avoid causing me confusion and suffering, I think you should have said "twice infinitely more attributes than the previous revision of HTML5!"
  508. # [16:15] <Philip`> Oh wait
  509. # [16:15] <Philip`> Now I'm just totally wrong
  510. # [16:15] <Philip`> hsivonen: You were right all along
  511. # [16:16] * Philip` misread "twice infinitely more than" as "twice as many as the infinity that were in"
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  513. # [16:19] <zcorpan_> Hixie: the spec says "The declarations specified must be parsed", not "The attribute's value must be parsed", which might imply that there is some preprocessing (like, splitting on ;) to get the declarations
  514. # [16:20] <zcorpan_> s/;)/';')/
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  516. # [16:26] <htmlfivedotnet> ooh. only one failure in the html5lib now. is that what you guys are all getting? I can't wait to play around with it
  517. # [16:27] * Joins: phsiao (n=shawn@nat/ibm/x-c5510d126da8267e)
  518. # [16:30] <zcorpan_> Hixie: how about the icons used at http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker ?
  519. # [16:31] <Philip`> zcorpan_: What licensing do they have?
  520. # [16:31] <zcorpan_> Philip`: dunno
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  522. # [16:46] <takkaria> Hixie: how does the PDF version of the spec get generated?
  523. # [16:48] <Philip`> takkaria: Probably a bit like http://hsivonen.iki.fi/printing-wa10/
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  537. # [17:38] <hsivonen> hmm. interesting. although methods beat switch on the PPC client VM, switch does indeed beat methods on the x86 client VM!
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  540. # [17:48] <htmlfivedotnet> hsivonen: wider pipelines to process more at once for the ppc (all methods), whereas the x86 barrels through the narrow switches at full megahertz speed
  541. # [17:49] <htmlfivedotnet> i bet that compiled in 64 bit, the x86 would be right in line on methods
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  543. # [18:02] <Philip`> hsivonen: I have Java on x86_64 in case it'd help to test that too
  544. # [18:03] <Philip`> (It seems to say I only have the server VM and not client, though...)
  545. # [18:04] <hsivonen> Philip`: http://about.validator.nu/htmlparser/perf2.zip
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  547. # [18:04] <hsivonen> Philip`: the client VM is not available for x86_64
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  549. # [18:06] <Philip`> hsivonen: Ah, that would explain it
  550. # [18:06] <hsivonen> Hixie: I think making PCDATA-data and non-PCDATA-data states different states is likely to be a big perf win
  551. # [18:07] <Philip`> Hmm, my results might be a little suspect since three quarters of my CPU is running theorem provers
  552. # [18:07] <hsivonen> I think I'm going to break the data state into four states: PCDATA, RCDATA, CDATA and escape flag
  553. # [18:08] <hsivonen> I also think I should break the escape flag state further to avoid a look-back buffer
  554. # [18:08] <hsivonen> Hixie: you are cheating whenever you spec lookahead or lookback :-)
  555. # [18:09] <Philip`> hsivonen: He's optimising for readability, and trusting implementors to optimise for performance :-)
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  557. # [18:10] <hsivonen> Philip`: does your OCaml parser generator generate 6 states for the data state?
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  559. # [18:24] <Philip`> hsivonen: No
  560. # [18:24] <Philip`> hsivonen: I do have code that approximately splits each state up into lots of (state, content-model-flag) stats, like in http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/states2.png
  561. # [18:25] <Philip`> but haven't put that into the code generation part, because it gets a little messier when the tree constructor can change content-model-flag without the tokeniser's knowledge
  562. # [18:26] <Philip`> hsivonen: Running for 1 minute on Wikipedia's Main_Page from a few days ago, on Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM (build 1.6.0-b105, mixed mode), for XML/methods/switch I get 53280/27395/27294
  563. # [18:27] <Philip`> so there's no real different between methods and switch
  564. # [18:27] <Philip`> *difference
  565. # [18:29] <Philip`> s/stats/states/ five minutes ago
  566. # [18:30] <Philip`> Oh, also I haven't put it into the code generation part because I'd need to write a better optimiser for the conditions (e.g. "contentModelFlag == PCDATA" is trivially false in the DataState-RCDATA state)
  567. # [18:30] <Philip`> (but some things are less trivial)
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  569. # [18:56] <Philip`> hsivonen: Also, 5 minute runs on the same machine/page give pretty much the same results (XML=269592, methods=137637, switch=132836)
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  584. # [20:22] <hsivonen> Philip`: I think the content model flag should become a return value from the tree builder
  585. # [20:23] <hsivonen> Philip`: thanks for the x86_64 results
  586. # [20:23] <hsivonen> x86 server: http://pastebin.ca/1002005
  587. # [20:50] <virtuelv> MikeSmith: are there still lightning talk spots open?
  588. # [20:52] <MikeSmith> virtuelv, yeah
  589. # [20:55] <virtuelv> I certainly hope the talks don't have to be on topic and serious?
  590. # [20:56] <MikeSmith> the more fun, the better
  591. # [20:57] <virtuelv> Yeah, I'm struggling between "The political importance of lolcats" and "My name's relevance to «A boy named Sue»"
  592. # [21:04] <hsivonen> virtuelv: but lolcats are seriously important for political dissenters
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  594. # [21:05] <virtuelv> hsivonen: yes, and so are their internet siblings, the motivational posters
  595. # [21:06] <virtuelv> MikeSmith: key point is, I'm interested, but I have no topic yet
  596. # [21:09] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  597. # [21:24] <hsivonen> Hixie: are JS engines now required to track the origin or string objects for data URIs?
  598. # [21:24] <hsivonen> do they do that already or is this something new?
  599. # [21:25] <othermaciej> hsivonen: right now Gecko and the latest WebKit give frames loaded from data: URIs no security authority
  600. # [21:26] <othermaciej> not sure what IE does
  601. # [21:26] <othermaciej> did Hixie invent something more complicated?
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  603. # [21:28] <hsivonen> othermaciej: if I understood correctly, Hixie made data URIs inherit origin from the document/script where the string was minted
  604. # [21:29] <hsivonen> it's possible that I didn't understand correctly
  605. # [21:29] <othermaciej> oh that's not gonna fly
  606. # [21:29] <othermaciej> inheriting origin from the document/script that initiated the location change might do
  607. # [21:30] <othermaciej> but is somewhat complicated and unlike the handling for javascript: URIs for instance
  608. # [21:30] <othermaciej> (sadly I don't think data: can safely use either the javascript: or the about:blank security policy)
  609. # [21:33] <hsivonen> Philip`: it appears that your state analysis doesn't know that content model is always PCDATA when endTag returns
  610. # [21:35] <Philip`> hsivonen: That's the part that's impossible to determine when you've only got the tokeniser algorithm
  611. # [21:36] <Philip`> since it's the tree constructor that sets it back to PCDATA, if I remember correctly
  612. # [21:36] <Philip`> I should just hard-code that fact into the state-expander algorithm, and then it'd probably work alright
  613. # [21:37] <hsivonen> I think the various flavors of the data state should be individual states and startTag should be allowed to return the next state it wants
  614. # [21:38] <Philip`> That sounds like a sensible way to model it
  615. # [21:40] <Philip`> (I've kind of ignored the whole tokeniser / tree constructor interaction for now, and treated them as isolated algorithms)
  616. # [21:40] <Philip`> (I could just convert them into a single state machine)
  617. # [21:42] <Philip`> (37 tokeniser states * 19 tree constructor states isn't really that many)
  618. # [21:43] <Philip`> (* ~4 for the content model flag)
  619. # [21:44] <Philip`> (* 2 for the escape flag)
  620. # [21:44] <Philip`> (Okay, maybe I don't actually want to end up with five thousand functions in my parser)
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  624. # [21:54] <hsivonen> Philip`: at first I thought that it would be smart to inline tree contructor into tokenizer, but it really isn't
  625. # [21:56] <Philip`> hsivonen: Why isn't it?
  626. # [21:56] <hsivonen> Philip`: the tree constructor methods are large and have more than one call site
  627. # [21:56] <Philip`> (I'm guessing it'd just be a huge amount of code duplication)
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  629. # [21:59] <hsivonen> Hmm. I already have a concept of return state for entity consumption
  630. # [21:59] <hsivonen> I could use the same mechanism for rememberig CDATA vs. RCDATA when in escape
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  633. # [22:26] <jgraham__> hsivonen: How do you deal with gathering all the tokens till the next non character token when parsing (R)CData? Do you have a special loop just for doing that or does it all go through the main loop somehow?
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  635. # [22:27] * jgraham__ has to fix html5lib's liberal xml parser for cases like <script /><head> but really doesn't want to
  636. # [22:27] <jgraham__> (I want to not have a liberal xml parser based on html5lib. Unfortunately it is actually used in the wild)
  637. # [22:28] <jgraham__> s/?$/? or something else?/
  638. # [22:34] <hsivonen> jgraham__: I have a variable that holds the position of the first character in a run of text and when a text run ends, I call a flushing method
  639. # [22:35] <hsivonen> jgraham__: when I skip over data that may turn out to be text, I either store it in a buffer just in case or have static buffers with certain magic strings
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  641. # [22:36] <hsivonen> nn
  642. # [22:37] <jgraham__> goodnight
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  652. # [22:59] <Hixie> takkaria: by a script that often gets killed by the kernel, running every day around 6am
  653. # [23:00] <Hixie> hsivonen: no, there shouldn't be any tracking of origin for data: URIs beyond the point at which it is used... did I make it more complicated by accident?
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  669. # [23:36] <Hixie> if a WimLeers guy comes by when i'm not around, someone help him out :-)
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  674. # Session Close: Wed Apr 30 00:00:00 2008

The end :)