/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-05-04 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun May 04 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:08] * Philip` thinks "market-leading HTML5 validator" is an odd phrase to use when the entire market consists of about ten people and one validator
  4. # [00:16] <hsivonen> Philip`: if there's only one, it's necessarily the top product in its category, isn't it? :-)
  5. # [00:20] <Philip`> hsivonen: It's technically a true statement, but the phrase has connotations that are not applicable in this case :-)
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  8. # [00:29] <zokka> hello
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  12. # [00:31] <zokka> i think they should change the code tag
  13. # [00:32] <zokka> so it displays special characters
  14. # [00:34] <hsivonen> zokka: who's "they" and what special characters are you referring to?
  15. # [00:34] <zokka> <>
  16. # [00:34] <hsivonen> zokka: there's already <xmp> for that
  17. # [00:35] <hsivonen> zokka: it doesn't add to the expressiveness of the language and has the problem of not being able to represent an example of itself
  18. # [00:35] <zokka> that went over my head
  19. # [00:35] <zokka> :D
  20. # [00:36] <zokka> xmp is deprecreated though
  21. # [00:36] <hsivonen> zokka: you can use <code> and <pre> to show an example of <code> or <pre>
  22. # [00:36] <hsivonen> zokka: you can't use <xmp> to show an example of <xmp>
  23. # [00:37] <hsivonen> zokka: and for the "expressiveness" part, <xmp> doesn't really help you say anything you couldn't say with <pre>
  24. # [00:37] <zokka> i like the auto escaping of special characterst though on it
  25. # [00:37] <zokka> it doesnt seem natural to use escape codes
  26. # [00:38] <zokka> i see your meaning though markup might look bad when using html
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  29. # [00:42] <jwalden> *cough* cdata *cough*
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  31. # [00:43] <zokka> gotta go
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  35. # [01:11] <Philip`> jwalden: Like XML's <![CDATA[... stuff? That makes it hard to write an example of XML code that uses CDATA, so it doesn't solve any problems :-p
  36. # [01:11] <gsnedders> That's SGML! :P
  37. # [01:11] <gsnedders> Perfectly valid (and useless) HTML 4.01!
  38. # [01:11] <Philip`> I prefer to believe that SGML doesn't exist
  39. # [01:12] <Philip`> My life is much simpler that way
  40. # [01:12] <jwalden> being able to nest is a false goal, in my book
  41. # [01:12] <Philip`> There's just HTML and XML
  42. # [01:24] <gsnedders> Philip`: And gsneddersML.
  43. # [01:25] <gsnedders> With elements such as "lust" and "rant".
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  64. # [05:27] <Hixie> Philip`: validator.nu is market leading in the sense that it's changing the game, too
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  101. # [14:12] <Hixie> boy am i glad i don't own XHR anymore
  102. # [14:32] <Lachy> Hey Hixie, did you remember to do that study on the markup generator strings?
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  105. # [15:41] <Philip`> hsivonen: It's really quite confusing how Validator.nu sometimes stops half way through a document
  106. # [15:41] <Philip`> e.g. http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.millermicro.com%2Fnatick.html&showimagereport=yes&showsource=yes#imagereport made me wonder why it was missing a load of images that were on the page
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  113. # [16:21] <annevk> I don't understand the opting into cookies proposal...
  114. # [16:22] <annevk> Does it mean user agents can decide to do cookies and if they do they include some headers?
  115. # [16:23] <annevk> oh wait, the server includes that header, not the user agent
  116. # [16:23] <annevk> hmm
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  120. # [17:08] <Lachy> oh dear, I thought this thread was over :-( http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008May/0002.html
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  122. # [17:17] <Dashiva> Lachy: Various slashes movies come to mind
  123. # [17:17] <Dashiva> *slasher
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  125. # [17:22] <Lachy> Dashiva, which movies?
  126. # [17:25] <Dashiva> The sequels :) "They thought he was dead, but they thought wrong!"
  127. # [17:34] <Philip`> The only way to really kill those characters is to not watch the movies, since they'll stop making sequels when there's no audience
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  129. # [17:37] <Philip`> But maybe it's more like the end-of-game bosses in Final Fantasy style games, where you have to defeat them in combat seven times and then use a special sequence of attacks that you found on GameFAQs to finally see them off
  130. # [17:46] * Philip` wishes Gmail interacted correctly with Thunderbird's automatic removal of " (was: ...)" from subject lines, instead of thinking the subject change meant it was a whole new thread
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  140. # [18:47] * Philip` finds yet another Firefox canvas crash
  141. # [18:47] <Philip`> They're worryingly common :-(
  142. # [18:49] <Dashiva> Maybe they're hydra-based. Every time you find one, two more are created.
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  144. # [18:55] <Philip`> Hmm, looks like just a null pointer thingy, so not particularly exploitable :-(
  145. # [18:55] <hsivonen> Philip`: I need to do something about image report upon fatal error, yes. thanks
  146. # [19:02] <Philip`> Oh, it's already reported as https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=421715 - I guess nobody cares enough to fix that issue in FF2
  147. # [19:03] * Philip` adds UA-sniffing to his canvas test suite, to avoid that crash
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  151. # [19:13] <gavin_> Philip`: we can take that for a dot release
  152. # [19:13] <gavin_> I'll ask for approval
  153. # [19:15] <Philip`> gavin_: Ah, thanks, that would make me happy :-)
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  155. # [19:18] * Dashiva reads "alt and authoring practices"
  156. # [19:19] <Dashiva> That's a nice way to make a gallery that never reveals it does, in fact, contain images
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  161. # [19:39] <Philip`> Hmph - WebKit doesn't support colours rgb(x,x,x) when x >= 2^31, and Firefox 2 doesn't support them when x >= about 10^39, and Opera 9.2 doesn't support them when x >= 2^31 - 64
  162. # [19:40] <Philip`> Silly browsers :-(
  163. # [19:40] <Philip`> (FF3 and O9.5 seem to get it right, though)
  164. # [19:41] * Philip` wonders if he's testing things that don't have great real-world relevance
  165. # [19:44] <Dashiva> Well, if you manage to squeeze 10^39 into one byte, that's pretty significant :)
  166. # [19:47] <Philip`> Well, I don't expect the browser to make that pixel appear three hundred orders of magnitude brighter than normal bright white, it should just be clamped to 255 :-p
  167. # [19:47] <Philip`> Oops, I didn't mean 10^39 for FF2, I meant 10^310
  168. # [19:47] <gsnedders> So, both browsers and standards suck then.
  169. # [19:48] <Philip`> gsnedders: Monitors too - we wouldn't need this clamping if it wasn't for their physical limitations
  170. # [19:48] <gsnedders> Philip`: Then we'd reach the limits of what the human brain can tell apart
  171. # [19:50] <Philip`> gsnedders: We're a huge way away from those limits - look at bright white on a computer monitor, then look at the sun with one eye, then look at a class 4 laser with the other eye, and you'll see there's still a long way for monitors to grow
  172. # [19:50] <gsnedders> Philip`: Am I meant to look at all three at once, or just the latter two?
  173. # [19:51] <Philip`> gsnedders: I recommend doing them separately and in that sequence
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  175. # [19:51] <gsnedders> Philip`: That's true, it may be a bit hard if you look at the laser first
  176. # [19:54] <Dashiva> Philip`: So basically, you're seeing int and double max value limitations?
  177. # [19:55] <Philip`> Dashiva: Yes, except for Opera being crazy and doing signed int minus 64
  178. # [20:08] <Dashiva> Geez... if we were following the standard set in the early days of htmlwg, Hixie would've filed half a dozen formal complaints by now :)
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  181. # [20:23] <Philip`> So, Opera's gone from 81% down to 52% on my ImageData tests since I last checked
  182. # [20:23] * hsivonen wonders if KompoZer's alt UI is on mpt's radar for Ubuntu usability
  183. # [20:24] <Dashiva> Philip`: More tests, changed spec, or worse support?
  184. # [20:24] <Philip`> while WebKit has gone from 0% to 79%
  185. # [20:24] <Philip`> Dashiva: More tests and changed spec
  186. # [20:25] <Philip`> (though only a few of the extra tests are not the result of spec changes, so mostly it's just spec changes)
  187. # [20:27] <Philip`> I'm being nasty and e.g. testing that there isn't an ImageData constructor, in order to make Opera fail
  188. # [20:29] <Dashiva> Is that a requirement, though?
  189. # [20:31] <Philip`> There isn't an explicit statement in the spec saying "There must not be an ImageData constructor"
  190. # [20:33] <Philip`> I don't know if the Web IDL spec says that interfaces that aren't explicitly declared to have a constructor mustn't have a constructor
  191. # [20:33] <Philip`> but in any case it matters for interoperability, since it's not nice if people write new ImageData() in Opera and find their code breaks for Firefox users, so that's more important than what the specs explicitly say
  192. # [20:36] <Dashiva> Hoo boy
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  195. # [20:56] <hsivonen> alt sure generates a lot of email
  196. # [20:59] <Philip`> hsivonen: It's used a hundred times more than abbr/acronym, so it ought to be worth a reasonable amount of discussion
  197. # [20:59] <Philip`> but I won't attempt to define what "a reasonable amount" is :-)
  198. # [21:06] <Dashiva> Well, it's not like much of it is about alt anymore
  199. # [21:07] <Dashiva> (and if it is, we've heard it before)
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  225. # [23:54] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-67-160-251-228.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
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  228. # Session Close: Mon May 05 00:00:00 2008

The end :)