/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-05-05 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Mon May 05 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:06] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-67-160-251-228.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  4. # [00:15] * Joins: MacDome (n=eric@c-24-130-11-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  5. # [00:20] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-67-160-251-228.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  6. # [00:20] * Quits: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  7. # [00:22] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@adsl-76-194-112-188.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  8. # [00:22] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-67-160-251-228.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  9. # [00:47] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  10. # [00:47] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  11. # [00:50] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  12. # [00:55] * Quits: qwert666 (n=qwert666@daz142.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) ("Leaving")
  13. # [00:55] * Quits: MacDome (n=eric@c-24-130-11-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  14. # [01:01] * Quits: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@dhcp-0000036913-b5-5e.client.fas.harvard.edu)
  15. # [01:09] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@70-13-4-194.area2.spcsdns.net)
  16. # [01:10] * Joins: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@dhcp-0000036913-b5-5e.client.fas.harvard.edu)
  17. # [01:18] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@70-13-4-194.area2.spcsdns.net)
  18. # [01:21] * Joins: MacDome (n=eric@c-24-130-11-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  19. # [01:25] * Joins: roc (n=roc@ip67-152-80-226.z80-152-67.customer.algx.net)
  20. # [01:33] * Joins: webben_ (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com)
  21. # [01:45] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-67-160-251-228.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  22. # [01:48] * Quits: webben (n=benh@81.168.10.233) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  23. # [01:56] * Quits: roc (n=roc@ip67-152-80-226.z80-152-67.customer.algx.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  24. # [01:57] * Joins: roc (n=roc@ip67-152-80-226.z80-152-67.customer.algx.net)
  25. # [02:43] * Quits: MacDome (n=eric@c-24-130-11-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  26. # [03:11] * Joins: roc_ (n=roc@38.99.84.33)
  27. # [03:13] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-174-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  28. # [03:13] * Quits: jruderman_ (n=jruderma@c-67-180-174-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  29. # [03:17] * Joins: aroben (n=adamrobe@76.111.160.14)
  30. # [03:21] * Hixie proposes something which would end up making alt="" required for every image
  31. # [03:22] <Hixie> i'll be interested to see whether the alt-must-be-required-whether-useful-or-not camp like this proposal or not
  32. # [03:25] <Philip`> Sounds kind of similar to the 'noalt' thing that people have suggested
  33. # [03:25] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@adsl-99-154-52-142.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  34. # [03:26] <Philip`> except with more graceful degradation in UAs that do ugly things with <img> without alt
  35. # [03:26] <Philip`> and sometimes slightly more informative to users than always announcing the image as "Image"
  36. # [03:27] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  37. # [03:27] * Quits: aroben (n=adamrobe@unaffiliated/aroben)
  38. # [03:28] * Quits: roc (n=roc@ip67-152-80-226.z80-152-67.customer.algx.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  39. # [03:29] <Philip`> I suppose the problem is that people will just never bother adding 'importantimage', because it achieves no visible effect (including in validators) - UAs don't know that images without importantimage are unimportant, so they'll still have to let their users interact with alt-less images in case they're important, so there would be no difference
  40. # [03:29] <webben_> Hixie: Hmm. Seems to me that if the use-case includes bulk-upload photo tools, then those tools can't make the statement that the image "cannot be considered equivalent to any text". What they can do is say the alt is not in any sense a full equivalent to the image.
  41. # [03:30] <webben_> that would be useful information to tools like Lynx
  42. # [03:31] <Philip`> They could say how confident they are in the quality of the alt text, like <img src="cats.jpg" alt="Some photo, probably of a cat; q=0.2">
  43. # [03:32] * Joins: MacDome (n=eric@c-24-130-11-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  44. # [03:33] <webben_> I'm not sure that would add much to current use scenarios over just saying it's not a full equivalent.
  45. # [03:34] <Philip`> Indeed, it seems a hard enough job just to get people to use a boolean value correctly
  46. # [03:34] <webben_> if you've got some hypothetical future gizmo for recognizing images, you're likely to just run it over anything that isn't q=1
  47. # [03:34] <Philip`> You should run it on anything that is q=1 too, because people will use q=1 when they've got rubbish alt text
  48. # [03:35] <webben_> Philip`: If you've got another hypothetical future gizmo that tells you whether you're new equivalent is better than the original alt, maybe.
  49. # [03:35] <webben_> *your new
  50. # [03:37] * Joins: kfish (n=conrad@61.194.21.25)
  51. # [03:38] <Philip`> webben_: I've got a concrete present-day human who can decide whether the original alt text is giving them the information they're expecting or hoping for, and if not then they can use the gizmo and decide whether that's any better
  52. # [03:39] <webben_> um, yes, although the information they're expecting or hoping for might be rather different to that actually intended to be provided.
  53. # [03:39] <webben_> but quering an analysis tool is different to running it automatically
  54. # [03:40] <webben_> (or at least to presenting the results automatically)
  55. # [03:40] <Philip`> I'm thinking of e.g. looking at a Flickr page and finding a thing called "Photo" or "IMG_05863.JPG" and then (regardless of how reliable the page says that alt text is) choosing to analyse it in more detail
  56. # [03:41] <webben_> yep, that would work.
  57. # [03:42] <Philip`> I'm not sure how it'd be possible to do the analysis automatically, since you'd want an extremely concise output (like one or two words) in most cases, else it'll significantly disrupt the flow of the page
  58. # [03:42] <webben_> depends how clever the gizmo is, it's all a bit speculative at this point
  59. # [03:42] <Philip`> At least it could ignore transparent spacer GIFs
  60. # [03:43] <webben_> yes. We really ought to be able to improve at to ignore space GIFs now.
  61. # [03:43] <webben_> *improve AT
  62. # [03:43] <Philip`> Aside: Maybe HTML5 should support <spacer>, since that's a better solution than spacer GIFs because it's easier for UAs to ignore it, but currently it's unfashionable because it makes validators complain
  63. # [03:43] <webben_> and Lynx for that matter.
  64. # [03:44] <Philip`> webben_: Do most ATs download images?
  65. # [03:44] <webben_> I've never run across an instance of a developer needing a spacer GIF, so I know no reason to support either except to deal with existing content.
  66. # [03:44] <Philip`> (I assume they would if they're just stuck on top of IE or Firefox or whatever)
  67. # [03:45] <Philip`> It'd be kind of a pain to make Lynx download every linked image file solely to decide whether it looks like a spacer or not
  68. # [03:45] <webben_> Philip`: Most AT isn't a browser, but acting with a browser. People using AT don't necessarily turn off image downloading, though some do.
  69. # [03:45] <Hixie> Philip`: css is a better solution
  70. # [03:46] <Philip`> Hixie: Oh, good point
  71. # [03:46] <webben_> Philip`: Depends how annoying seeing "SPACER GIF" splattered across the page is to lynx users, I guess
  72. # [03:47] <webben_> or IMAGE when it's not one.
  73. # [03:48] * Quits: MacDome (n=eric@c-24-130-11-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  74. # [03:48] <webben_> You're probably right that text browsers' commitment to speed is going to make them even less capable than typical AT.
  75. # [03:50] * Philip` wonders if someone like Google could download and analyse every image on the internet, then construct something like a Bloom filter so UAs can quickly check whether a given URI is in the pre-computed set of spacer images, and how large the filter data file would be
  76. # [03:52] <webben_> tricky, given images are obtained via URIs, and URIs can return things that vary by who requests them (as well as time)
  77. # [03:52] <webben_> you could md5 the downloaded image and use that for the query to a webservice, but that would still require Lynx to download the image
  78. # [03:53] <Philip`> Static content like images are more commonly at a single static URI, so it might not be too awful
  79. # [03:53] <webben_> Oh yes, it would work for common cases.
  80. # [03:54] <webben_> having to make a request to a webservice for each image might be almost as bad for performance as downloading the images in the first place
  81. # [03:55] <Philip`> Hmm, Google says there's about 10^9 images, and if I wildly guess there's 10^6 spacer images, and an acceptable false positive rate is 1/1000, then it'd only need 14MB of filter data
  82. # [03:56] <Philip`> webben_: The idea is that you just download the global data once, and do local queries on that, like how Firefox's phishing filter works by default
  83. # [03:56] <webben_> oh I see.
  84. # [03:56] * Quits: tndH (n=Rob@adsl-87-102-77-138.karoo.KCOM.COM) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  85. # [03:56] <Philip`> Anyway, this a stupid idea so I'll drop it :-p
  86. # [03:57] <Philip`> Oops, that's 14Mbits, so it's not even 2MB
  87. # [03:58] * Quits: jwalden (n=waldo@STRATTON-ONE-SEVENTY-SIX.MIT.EDU) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  88. # [03:59] * Joins: heyadayo2 (n=mcarter@pool-72-87-174-210.plspca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
  89. # [04:10] * Philip` likes writing code that writes code
  90. # [04:10] <Philip`> Sadly I haven't yet found an excuse to write code that writes code that writes code
  91. # [04:13] * Quits: heyadayo3 (n=mcarter@pool-72-87-174-11.plspca.dsl-w.verizon.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  92. # [04:19] * Quits: syp_ (n=syp@lasigpc9.epfl.ch) (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  93. # [04:32] * Quits: webben_ (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com)
  94. # [04:39] * Joins: heycam` (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au)
  95. # [04:48] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@99-203-167-116.area2.spcsdns.net)
  96. # [05:44] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-67-160-251-228.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  97. # [05:47] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@99-203-167-116.area2.spcsdns.net)
  98. # [05:56] * Joins: syp_ (n=syp@128.178.82.67)
  99. # [05:56] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@adsl-99-154-52-142.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  100. # [06:03] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@82-198-140-17.nethop.ie)
  101. # [06:08] * Joins: MacDome (n=eric@c-24-130-11-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  102. # [07:02] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p5047-ipbf1403marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  103. # [07:17] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@82-198-140-17.nethop.ie) (Remote closed the connection)
  104. # [07:23] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  105. # [07:28] * Quits: shepazu (n=schepers@static-ip-34-121-90-219.rev.dyxnet.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  106. # [07:37] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p5047-ipbf1403marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  107. # [07:37] * Joins: wakaba_ (n=w@180.165.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  108. # [07:45] * Quits: MacDome (n=eric@c-24-130-11-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  109. # [07:48] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@70-14-40-182.area3.spcsdns.net)
  110. # [07:49] * Joins: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  111. # [07:51] * Quits: roc_ (n=roc@38.99.84.33) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  112. # [07:52] * Joins: tantek_ (n=tantek@h-66-167-138-33.sttnwaho.dynamic.covad.net)
  113. # [07:54] * Quits: wakaba (n=w@180.165.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  114. # [08:10] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@70-14-40-182.area3.spcsdns.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  115. # [08:20] * Joins: shepazu (n=schepers@211.144.96.92)
  116. # [08:20] * Quits: tantek_ (n=tantek@h-66-167-138-33.sttnwaho.dynamic.covad.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  117. # [08:24] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p5047-ipbf1403marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  118. # [08:28] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@82-198-140-17.nethop.ie)
  119. # [08:32] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  120. # [08:42] * Joins: jruderman_ (n=jruderma@c-67-180-174-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  121. # [08:42] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-174-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  122. # [08:48] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@82-198-140-17.nethop.ie) ("Less talk, more pimp walk.")
  123. # [08:48] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  124. # [08:59] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-67-160-251-228.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  125. # [09:05] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@c-24-19-2-124.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
  126. # [09:05] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@c-24-19-2-124.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  127. # [09:11] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@86.47.129.77)
  128. # [09:12] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-98-207-134-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  129. # [09:19] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p5047-ipbf1403marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  130. # [09:24] <annevk> Sunava doesn't actually set a clear target date :(
  131. # [09:24] <annevk> Oh well, I guess that's normal
  132. # [09:25] * Quits: shepazu (n=schepers@211.144.96.92)
  133. # [09:28] <annevk> Hixie, you around?
  134. # [09:29] <Hixie> can be
  135. # [09:29] <annevk> Hixie, it's not that important, but I was wondering about your proposal on the appformats list
  136. # [09:29] <Hixie> anything specific?
  137. # [09:29] * Joins: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  138. # [09:29] <annevk> is Access-Include-Credentials provided by the UA or the server?
  139. # [09:29] <annevk> and what are the header values?
  140. # [09:30] <Hixie> server
  141. # [09:30] <annevk> (your proposal says UA, but I expect server)
  142. # [09:30] <Hixie> no values (or just "yes" or something)
  143. # [09:31] <annevk> GET requests would always work?
  144. # [09:31] <annevk> or would GET requests need to be preceded by a normal request too?
  145. # [09:36] <Hixie> GET requests work like now but without credentials, and if the server replies with an Access-Include-Credentials they are redone with credentials
  146. # [09:36] <annevk> :(
  147. # [09:37] <annevk> can the user be prompted in the initial request?
  148. # [09:37] <annevk> in case of http auth
  149. # [09:45] <Hixie> the user can never be prompted can he?
  150. # [09:47] * Quits: heycam` (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au) ("bye")
  151. # [09:47] <annevk> guess so
  152. # [09:47] <annevk> <img src=cross-site> is prompted iirc
  153. # [09:48] <Hixie> i don't think we should ever prompt the user for credentials in any request that will be subject to Access-Control management
  154. # [09:50] <annevk> so you'd just get a 403 back (or 401?) and be done with it?
  155. # [09:50] <annevk> i guess that's ok
  156. # [09:52] <annevk> (that is of course, if the server actually provides Access-Control headers with the 401)
  157. # [09:55] <Hixie> makes sense to get back the 401
  158. # [09:55] <Hixie> that way the third party host knows to tell the user to log in
  159. # [09:56] <annevk> the way the spec is written now all status codes work cross-site
  160. # [09:56] <annevk> i hope browsers implement that too as I think it's useful
  161. # [09:58] <Hixie> include an example whowing it
  162. # [09:58] <Hixie> showing
  163. # [09:59] <othermaciej> what's the advantage to Access-Include-Credentials?
  164. # [09:59] <Hixie> the main advantage is taht it might get us out of this deadlock
  165. # [10:00] <othermaciej> I don't see how it adds any security
  166. # [10:00] <othermaciej> it wouldn't defend against anything that anyone has identified as a threat model
  167. # [10:00] <annevk> I wonder what the reason is sicking isn't commenting at all other than saying the spec isn't ready
  168. # [10:01] <annevk> The only threat model I've seen so far is that people might opt in too soon and others would copy and paste and only Firefox users would be vulnerable
  169. # [10:02] <othermaciej> I have not followed the appformats list though
  170. # [10:02] <annevk> But Access-Include-Credentials doesn't address that issue
  171. # [10:02] <othermaciej> I was thinking of the HP guy's "sensitive financial transaction" pseudo-threat
  172. # [10:02] <othermaciej> which is also not addressed
  173. # [10:02] <Hixie> what's going on is that mozilla has a "security" person internally who isn't making sense
  174. # [10:02] <Hixie> and that is deadlocking mozilla
  175. # [10:03] <othermaciej> is it Window or someone else?
  176. # [10:04] * Quits: sverrej (n=sverrej@89.10.27.86) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  177. # [10:04] <annevk> Hmm, adding "bloat" because of a single person seems icky :(
  178. # [10:04] <othermaciej> I would rather have a face-to-face meeting than add cargo cult security
  179. # [10:07] <annevk> btw, have you been reviewing the spec othermaciej?
  180. # [10:08] <othermaciej> annevk: not much so far, but I am booking time for it next week, since we might be implementing it soon
  181. # [10:08] <othermaciej> I've asked one of my co-workers to look at it as well (he does most of our dom/networking security stuff)
  182. # [10:08] <annevk> double awesome :)
  183. # [10:21] * Joins: jgraham (n=james@81-86-215-216.dsl.pipex.com)
  184. # [10:22] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@86.47.129.77)
  185. # [10:23] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@86.47.129.77)
  186. # [10:36] * Joins: qwert666 (n=qwert666@etp92.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)
  187. # [10:37] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  188. # [10:38] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  189. # [10:44] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  190. # [10:45] * Quits: sverrej (n=sverrej@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  191. # [10:45] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  192. # [10:47] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  193. # [10:55] * Joins: shepazu (n=schepers@static-ip-34-121-90-219.rev.dyxnet.com)
  194. # [10:59] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  195. # [11:18] * Quits: kfish (n=conrad@61.194.21.25) ("Pike!")
  196. # [11:26] <Philip`> Why does VoiceOver have such a stupid selection of voices?
  197. # [11:26] <Philip`> Particularly "Bells", which sounds somewhat like bells and nothing like speech
  198. # [11:27] <jgraham_> Philip`: That one sentence encompassed my entire VO experience
  199. # [11:27] <Philip`> Hmm, there's another one that sings everything
  200. # [11:28] <jgraham_> (Oh, VoiceOver I should try that. What a crappy voice. Oh, the others are all worse, and all the keyboard shortcuts are buried somewhere in a PDF and impossible to fingeranyway. Nevermind.)
  201. # [11:28] <othermaciej> Philip`: it offers all the voices that Mac OS X's regular text-to-speech function supports
  202. # [11:28] <othermaciej> and yes, some are silly and would likely be annoying or useless to regular screen reader users
  203. # [11:32] <jruderman_> i wish they were grouped somehow (e.g. male, female, silly)
  204. # [11:34] <jruderman_> i love the |say| command, btw
  205. # [11:35] <jruderman_> 'sleep 90 && say time is up' is so much nicer than the timers that come with most board games
  206. # [11:36] <othermaciej> that is a cool command, yeah
  207. # [11:49] <Hixie> leopard hides the silly ones these days
  208. # [11:49] <Hixie> though they are still there
  209. # [11:50] <Hixie> and it grounds male and female
  210. # [11:50] <Hixie> groups, even
  211. # [11:55] <Philip`> Doesn't for me (in 10.5.2) - VoiceOver Utility just has drop-down lists of two dozen alphabetical voices
  212. # [12:01] <Hixie> s/leopard/the places in leopard that i've seen so far/ :-)
  213. # [12:02] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  214. # [12:03] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  215. # [12:13] * Parts: annevk (n=annevk@86.47.129.77)
  216. # [12:14] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@86.47.129.77)
  217. # [12:23] <Philip`> Whoops, I think I strayed off the topic of a specific instance of alt text usage, and started talking about generalities :-(
  218. # [12:24] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  219. # [12:27] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) (Client Quit)
  220. # [12:28] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  221. # [12:42] <Hixie> should context.font = '1em sans-serif'; use the font-size of the <canvas> element?
  222. # [12:43] <Philip`> I want "12px" to be precisely 12 canvas coordinate space units (because otherwise it's impossible to do even vaguely predictable layouts); apart from that, I don't have any views
  223. # [12:44] <Hixie> what else would a px be?
  224. # [12:47] <Philip`> It could be canvas coordinate space units multiplied by the user's text size preference, like in Firefox
  225. # [12:47] <Hixie> o_O
  226. # [12:47] <Hixie> that seems dumb
  227. # [12:47] <Philip`> (though maybe FF changed since it added full-page zoom)
  228. # [12:47] <Philip`> It makes sense for normal CSS pxs
  229. # [12:47] <Philip`> Wait, am I getting confused?
  230. # [12:48] <Philip`> Oh, I'm not
  231. # [12:48] <Philip`> data:text/html;charset=utf-8,%3Cstyle%3Espan%7Bfont-size%3A16px%7D%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0ATest%20%3Cspan%3ETest%3C%2Fspan%3E
  232. # [12:48] <Philip`> in FF2, changing text size changes all the text
  233. # [12:48] <Philip`> (which is nice because it makes tiny text readable)
  234. # [12:49] <Hixie> CSS doesn't have a concept of font-size zoom
  235. # [12:49] <Philip`> (but isn't nice in canvas, since you want it to line up sensibly with all the other drawn shapes)
  236. # [12:49] <Philip`> (and if the text in a canvas is too small to read, get a browser with full-page zoom so the whole canvas gets bigger)
  237. # [12:52] * Philip` departs
  238. # [12:54] <Lachy> In OSX Leopard, the only decent voice I've found is Alex with the pitch lowered to about 40. That's about as close to a normal sounding, Aussie accent I can get from it.
  239. # [12:54] <Lachy> the women's voices in it all sound silly
  240. # [12:55] <Hixie> Alex is the only voice that was created in this decade, as far as i can tell
  241. # [12:55] <Hixie> there are far better ones available from third parties
  242. # [12:56] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  243. # [12:57] <annevk> makes sense that em uses the <canvas> font size, just like currentColor uses the <canvas> 'color'
  244. # [15:05] * Disconnected
  245. # Session Close: Tue May 06 00:00:00 2008

The end :)