/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-05-06 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue May 06 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [09:28] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
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  5. # [09:28] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  6. # [09:28] * Set by gsnedders on Tue Dec 18 21:41:19
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  8. # [09:33] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
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  10. # [09:43] <annevk2> Hixie, prose says the default is '10px sans-serif' and IDL says '8px sans-serif'
  11. # [09:43] * annevk2 is now known as annevk
  12. # [09:44] <annevk> ah, logging is back
  13. # [09:44] <Hixie> oops
  14. # [09:44] <Hixie> logging?
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  16. # [09:46] <annevk> krijnh joined a fifteen minutes ago
  17. # [09:46] <Hixie> aah
  18. # [09:47] <annevk> hmm, I wonder if there's an inverse relation between the number of e-mails left and the number of XXX comments in the spec :)
  19. # [09:48] <Hixie> quite possible
  20. # [09:48] <Hixie> what the hell did little jacob eat that cost a $120 at a burger joint!
  21. # [09:48] <Hixie> jeezus
  22. # [09:49] <annevk> GTA IV reference?
  23. # [09:49] * annevk wants to play that game
  24. # [09:49] <Hixie> yes
  25. # [09:50] <annevk> he's probably not so little :p
  26. # [09:50] <jacobolus> Hixie: I always get the most expensive thing on the menu :)
  27. # [09:51] <Hixie> it's a burger joint! the most expensive thing is like $3!
  28. # [09:51] <jacobolus> you've never had a caviar burger?
  29. # [09:52] <Hixie> i do not believe that would be on the menu of that particular restaurant
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  32. # [09:54] <roc> you've never eaten in New York City?
  33. # [09:55] <Hixie> i have, but $120 seems still pretty damn high
  34. # [09:55] * Quits: sverrej (n=sverrej@89.10.27.86) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  35. # [09:57] <BenMillard> hixie, maybe he just ordered loads of stuff?
  36. # [09:57] <BenMillard> btw, I'm at Sight City in Frankfurt this week thanks to Mozilla
  37. # [09:58] <BenMillard> assistive technology convention type thing
  38. # [09:58] <BenMillard> http://www.sightcity.net/sightcity08-e.html
  39. # [09:58] <Hixie> cool
  40. # [10:01] <annevk> BenMillard, please invite all of them to join the HTMLWG/WHATWG and especially to e-mail their thoughts :)
  41. # [10:01] <annevk> (on html5, in case that wasn't clear...)
  42. # [10:02] <Hixie> christ, more people worried about copyrights on acid tests
  43. # [10:02] <Hixie> people are insanely paranoid about copyright
  44. # [10:02] <BenMillard> annevk, that's a great idea
  45. # [10:03] <BenMillard> annevk, I'll also be asking them about their interest in better support HTML's existing accessibility features, fixing bugs in their HTML support, stuff like that
  46. # [10:03] <BenMillard> *better supporting
  47. # [10:03] <BenMillard> hope to blog it all when I get back in similar detail as the Boston F2F
  48. # [10:04] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  49. # [10:04] <annevk> cool
  50. # [10:05] <BenMillard> I'll be walking around with a notepad and pen, pouncing on AT vendors like a journalist :P
  51. # [10:06] <BenMillard> I get back on Friday evening; off for some lunch now. bye all
  52. # [10:06] * Parts: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
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  56. # [10:18] <hsivonen> annevk: Molly had to cancel
  57. # [10:24] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@86.47.129.77)
  58. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> annevk: you there?
  59. # [10:28] <annevk> am now
  60. # [10:28] <annevk> hsivonen, ok
  61. # [10:28] <annevk> too bad
  62. # [10:29] <MikeSmith> annevk: wondering where Arve might be
  63. # [10:29] * Joins: roc_ (n=roc@ip67-152-80-226.z80-152-67.customer.algx.net)
  64. # [10:29] <annevk> sidewalk?
  65. # [10:29] <annevk> dunno really
  66. # [10:30] * Quits: roc_ (n=roc@ip67-152-80-226.z80-152-67.customer.algx.net) (Client Quit)
  67. # [10:33] <annevk> hsivonen, yt?
  68. # [10:33] * annevk is going down to get lunch
  69. # [10:34] <hsivonen> annevk: I haven't had breakfast yet
  70. # [10:34] <hsivonen> It will be a while before I even get to breakfast
  71. # [10:41] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  72. # [10:42] <hsivonen> hendry: see above. Molly's event is canceled
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  76. # [10:52] * jgraham__ denies having any opinion on canvas text in general and text-on-a-path in particular
  77. # [11:02] <jgraham__> Oh wait a second, you were talking about measuring text. Yeah, I did have a (sensible!) opinion on that :)
  78. # [11:02] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
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  85. # [11:56] <Lachy> Hixie, did you intentionally omit 'justify' from the allowed values of canvas context .textAlign?
  86. # [11:57] <Hixie> yes
  87. # [11:57] <Hixie> <string> also
  88. # [11:58] <Lachy> isn't it possible to support it at all?
  89. # [11:59] <Lachy> or is it just too complex for this first version?
  90. # [11:59] <othermaciej> full justification looks shitty on the web usually
  91. # [12:00] <othermaciej> basically no site uses it
  92. # [12:00] <annevk> justify should be possible, would even be nice if maxWidth was taken as desiredWidth or something
  93. # [12:00] <othermaciej> CSS3 Text module has a super complex spec for fancy full justification
  94. # [12:00] <Lachy> the default wordpress template uses justify
  95. # [12:00] <othermaciej> which IE might even implement some of
  96. # [12:01] <Lachy> so you can't say basically no site uses it.
  97. # [12:01] <Philip`> You could imagine that 'left' means 'left or justify', since you can only draw a single line of text so it makes no difference
  98. # [12:01] <othermaciej> of the 4 random wordpress.com blogs I looked at, none seems to have full justified text
  99. # [12:02] <annevk> offtopic: http://shop.lego.com/ByTheme/Product.aspx?p=10179&cn=416&d=322
  100. # [12:02] <othermaciej> you could full-justify a single line to a specific width, but that is likely a bad idea
  101. # [12:02] <Hixie> full justification would be meaningless since there's only one line, it would be stretch-to-fit
  102. # [12:02] <othermaciej> annevk: multiple people at my work have one of those
  103. # [12:02] <Hixie> or space-to-fit
  104. # [12:02] <Hixie> and i'm not adding that feature just because text-align happens to have it
  105. # [12:03] <othermaciej> full justify only ever looks good if you have an algorithm that is smart about adding justification vs. breaking lines, and is willing to either expand or compress both letter-spacing and word-spacing
  106. # [12:03] <Lachy> ok, that makes sense
  107. # [12:04] <Philip`> Why can't web browsers render everything using LaTeX?
  108. # [12:04] <othermaciej> WebKit's algorithm is not very smart (it breaks lines as normal and adds word-spacing)
  109. # [12:04] <othermaciej> Philip`: good justification is expensive to do on the fly, since you have to optimize the whole paragraph and can't really work line-at-a-time
  110. # [12:04] <othermaciej> (which I believe is what TeX does)
  111. # [12:05] <Philip`> Computers are fast - I would have though they could optimise a ten-line paragraph without a huge amount of trouble
  112. # [12:05] <Philip`> *thought
  113. #
  114. # Session Start: Tue May 06 12:06:25 2008
  115. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  116. # [12:06] * Now talking in #whatwg
  117. # [12:06] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  118. # [12:06] * Set by gsnedders on Tue Dec 18 21:41:19
  119. # [12:06] <Hixie> one paragraph, sire
  120. # [12:06] <Hixie> sure
  121. # [12:07] <Hixie> html5 is about 5000 paragraphs
  122. # [12:07] <othermaciej> full justify is really most useful for very narrow columns as in newspapers
  123. # [12:07] <othermaciej> though I guess it looks good in books too
  124. # [12:08] <annevk> i think that's why CSS3 covers it in much detail
  125. # [12:08] <othermaciej> in the web context it can create "rivers" through the text when done badly
  126. # [12:08] <annevk> probably less so for CSS applied on a screen context
  127. # [12:09] <Philip`> I assume good justification also requires automatic hyphenation
  128. # [12:10] <annevk> that's another topic discussed quite a bit in the CSS WG...
  129. # [12:15] * Philip` would be happier if more basic aspects of text rendering worked, like not having some fonts appear with no antialiasing on Linux, or like not having Safari sometimes render '=' with the top line twice the thickness of the bottom line, before worrying about complex typographical layout details
  130. # [12:16] <hsivonen> hmm. *I'm* hung up on machine validation of alt???
  131. # [12:18] <annevk> maybe you should ask which universe version of you they're referring too
  132. # [12:19] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@guest-226.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  133. # [12:25] * Philip` wonders why Hixie's proposal that makes alt mandatory has had so few responses
  134. # [12:25] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  135. # [12:25] * Hixie bites back some scathing cynicism
  136. # [12:26] <othermaciej> did anyone read it?
  137. # [12:27] <othermaciej> probably only people who dislike mandatory alt actually read that far
  138. # [12:27] <Philip`> I don't dislike mandatory alt but I read it :-)
  139. # [12:27] <Lachy> Philip`, when did Hixie propose to make alt mandatory? Did I miss something?
  140. # [12:28] <Philip`> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008May/0073.html
  141. # [12:30] <Philip`> (I suppose that wasn't actually saying alt should be mandatory in all cases, but I'm not sure what other cases remain)
  142. # [12:32] <othermaciej> Hixie's proposal is clearly meant to be a Modest one
  143. # [12:32] <othermaciej> but I don't hate it that much other than the sheer length of importantimage="importantimage"
  144. # [12:32] <Lachy> I really don't like the name importantimage for the attribute
  145. # [12:33] <Hixie> i believe i noted the attribute name was dumb
  146. # [12:33] <Hixie> and asked for better ideas
  147. # [12:34] <Lachy> how about introducing <img src="..." kind="Photo"> (where the value is a short, descriptive label of somekind)
  148. # [12:34] <othermaciej> the thing is, none of the people who would be expected to herald it as a brilliant breakthrough have spoken up
  149. # [12:35] <Hixie> shocking
  150. # [12:35] <Hixie> in other news
  151. # [12:35] <Hixie> i need to make innerHTML convert undefined and null to strings before processing
  152. # [12:35] <Hixie> should i just assume that that is what happens?
  153. # [12:35] <Hixie> i don't really follow that part of WebIDL
  154. # [12:35] <Lachy> that way you're not altering the meaning of alt based on the presence of another attribtue, and it also gives more potentially useful information in conjuncion with alt
  155. # [12:36] <othermaciej> Hixie: heycam's explanation of that in email further confused me
  156. # [12:37] <Hixie> as i understand it we have the following cases:
  157. # [12:37] <othermaciej> Hixie: it sounds like in the current version you have to specify [NoNull] to get that behavior for null but I am not really sure
  158. # [12:37] <Hixie> (for setting DOMString attributes and for passing DOMString arguments)
  159. # [12:37] <Hixie> 1. null -> "", undefined -> ""
  160. # [12:37] <Hixie> 2. null -> "", undefined -> "undefined"
  161. # [12:37] <Lachy> e.g. it distinguishes these two images, even though they have the same alt text:
  162. # [12:37] <Lachy> <img src="house.png" alt="The house is white, with green shutters on the windows." kind="Painting">
  163. # [12:37] <Lachy> <img src="house.png" alt="The house is white, with green shutters on the windows." kind="Photograph">
  164. # [12:37] <Hixie> 3. null -> "null", undefined -> "undefined"
  165. # [12:38] <Hixie> 4. null -> null, undefined -> null
  166. # [12:39] <annevk> case 2 actually exists? :(
  167. # [12:39] <othermaciej> I don't think Web IDL has anything to specify handling for null
  168. # [12:39] <othermaciej> I am also not offhand aware of APIs that do 1 or 4
  169. # [12:39] <annevk> Web IDL has [NoNull]
  170. # [12:39] <Hixie> annevk: firefox with innerHTML does that
  171. # [12:39] <othermaciej> er
  172. # [12:39] <othermaciej> specify handling for undefined I mean
  173. # [12:39] <Hixie> [NoNull] is a terrible name as it doesn't convey 1-4 of the above
  174. # [12:40] <othermaciej> I think 2 is what you get by default, and 3 is what you get with NoNull
  175. # [12:40] <annevk> Hixie, I don't think Firefox is the best reference
  176. # [12:40] <annevk> I believe WebKit, Opera, and IE are more aligned last I checked
  177. # [12:40] <Hixie> i'm not saying it is
  178. # [12:41] <othermaciej> in WebKit's IDL extensions, 3 is what you get by default and 2 (or really null -> null, undefined -> "undefined") is what you get with [ConvertNullToNullString]
  179. # [12:41] <Lachy> selectors api uses case 1 for return values from nsresolver
  180. # [12:41] <othermaciej> I think in DOM APIs, 2 (or really my variant of 2, but most things don't distinguish null string and empty string) is most common
  181. # [12:42] <othermaciej> but 3 is the most native-to-JavaScript behavior
  182. # [12:43] <othermaciej> Safari does 2 for assignment to innerHTML afaict
  183. # [12:44] <othermaciej> I can't find any place where we treat undefined passed for a string argument as empty string instead of "undefined"
  184. # [12:44] <Hixie> can you find any cases where you treat undefined as null?
  185. # [12:45] <othermaciej> actually we have a function for it so maybe
  186. # [12:46] <othermaciej> lemme see
  187. # [12:46] <Lachy> othermaciej, it appears that webkit does for document.querySelector(undefined); It throws a syntax err, the same as if "" was passed
  188. # [12:46] <othermaciej> createDocumentType, querySelector and toDataURL
  189. # [12:47] <othermaciej> createDocumentType is probably the only one of those that can't be changes for compat reasons
  190. # [12:47] <othermaciej> sucks to have three different ways of treating DOMString arguments
  191. # [12:47] <annevk> createDocumentType is used?!
  192. # [12:47] <othermaciej> and that's not even accounting for the weirdshit on attribute setting or return values
  193. # [12:48] <othermaciej> annevk: shockingly, yes
  194. # [12:48] <Hixie> getElementsByClassName() seems to treat undefined as "" in webkit trunk
  195. # [12:50] <othermaciej> I will not vouch for all our string treatment being the best choice compat-wise, mind you, not all of the cases have been compared against other implementations
  196. # [12:50] <othermaciej> Document.execCommand also treats undefined as null/empty for the third argument
  197. # [12:50] <othermaciej> (presumably to DTRT when it is omitted)
  198. # [12:51] <othermaciej> also for the URL and feature arguments of window.open
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  201. # [13:07] * hendry is in Dublin
  202. # [13:10] * krijnh is now known as krijn
  203. # [13:25] <Philip`> Lachy: <img src="..." kind="Photo"> would be much worse than <img src="..." alt="Photo" some-metametadata-attribute> for graceful degradation, since existing UAs won't tell the user it's a photo and will do something ugly like read the filename or ignore the image
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  206. # [13:38] <Lachy> Philip`, so as far as back compat is concerned, it's no worse than what the current spec says
  207. # [13:39] <Lachy> but it's still may be an improvement for future UAs
  208. # [13:39] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@86.47.129.77) ("Less talk, more pimp walk.")
  209. # [13:41] <Philip`> Lachy: Would it be more of an improvement for future UAs than <img importantimage>?
  210. # [13:42] <Hixie> woot, i caught up with the backlog i got from playing gta4
  211. # [13:43] <Philip`> Does that mean you're going back to GTA4 again? :-)
  212. # [13:43] <Lachy> I think importantimage will suffer from many of the same problems as noalt=""
  213. # [13:43] <gsnedders> Hixie: are you sure you're old enough to play GTA4?
  214. # [13:43] <gsnedders> :D
  215. # [13:46] <Lachy> oh, I like Hixie's suggested improvements for WebIDL. I hope heycam accepts them, and then I only need to decide on the best behavior to choose for selectors api
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  226. # [14:42] <heycam`> Hixie / othermaciej_ , thanks for the comments. i'll get to making some changes to web idl late next week, when my current busy patch is over.
  227. # [14:42] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
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  230. # [15:01] <Lachy> JohnResig, othermaciej, I added a very basic testsuite for selectors api. http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2006/webapi/selectors-api-testsuite/
  231. # [15:02] <Lachy> it doesn't test much yet, I'm still in the process of working out the best way to write the framework.
  232. # [15:02] <Lachy> but take a look, see if what I have is a good start and let me know if you have any suggestions for improvements
  233. # [15:04] <Lachy> the plan is to run most tests within an iframe, which loads various HTML and XHTML files, and runs queries on them
  234. # [15:04] <Lachy> and each test is a function within an array, written in tests.js
  235. # [15:06] <Philip`> Would you have a single iframe, and run each test in it in turn?
  236. # [15:07] <Philip`> Oh, actually, I think I'm just misunderstanding the whole thing, so ignore me
  237. # [15:07] <Lachy> Philip`, yes, that's most likely
  238. # [15:07] <Philip`> Are you always testing DOM-created documents, rather than downloaded-over-HTTP documents?
  239. # [15:08] <Lachy> no, the plan is to allow each test to either create a document or load a file into the iframe
  240. # [15:09] <Philip`> Ah, right
  241. # [15:09] <Lachy> not sure exactly how to do that, since such operations would need to be asynchronous
  242. # [15:09] <othermaciej> Lachy: I will ask weinig or somebody to tae a look
  243. # [15:09] <Lachy> othermaciej, thanks
  244. # [15:09] <othermaciej> Lachy: we have our own regression tests for querySelector but I doubt they are very powerful
  245. # [15:09] <Philip`> Lachy: Run test 1, set onload to a function that checks the results and then runs test 2? Not sure what the problem is :-)
  246. # [15:10] <othermaciej> we specifically didn't want to try to make tests for every possible kind of selector including edge cases, though come to think of it that would be more convenient than the tests with red and green boxes usually used for this kind of thing
  247. # [15:10] <Lachy> Philip`, yeah, something like that could work
  248. # [15:11] <othermaciej> Lachy: we have a good test framework for tests that purely involve scripting APIs and not layout
  249. # [15:11] <Lachy> othermaciej, ok. That might be good if I could build on that, instead of creating my own
  250. # [15:12] <Philip`> Mozilla has a framework for that too
  251. # [15:12] <Philip`> (http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Mochitest )
  252. # [15:12] <othermaciej> basically you just write a series of assertions in a JS file like this:
  253. # [15:12] <othermaciej> shouldBe("Math.abs(1)", "1");
  254. # [15:12] <othermaciej> shouldBe("Math.abs(-1)", "1");
  255. # [15:12] <Lachy> Opera sort of does too, but it's not really something that's usable by anyone easily
  256. # [15:12] <othermaciej> and we have some JS files that implement the functions
  257. # [15:13] <othermaciej> ours is real easy to use
  258. # [15:13] * Joins: csarven (i=csarven@on-irc.csarven.ca)
  259. # [15:13] <othermaciej> and gives pretty results
  260. # [15:14] <othermaciej> Lachy: I'll mail you an example (unless you have a WebKit checkout handy in which case I could point you to it)
  261. # [15:14] <Lachy> othermaciej, email it
  262. # [15:14] <Philip`> othermaciej: Is it easy to run individual tests by themselves? (Mozilla's Mochitests run a whole web server and a special browser mode, which is annoyingly complex)
  263. # [15:15] <othermaciej> Philip`: we group tests in files, all it takes to "run" such a suite is to open the html file in any browser
  264. # [15:15] <othermaciej> for fully automated execution we have a headless tool that loads all the html files in sequence
  265. # [15:15] <Philip`> othermaciej: Okay, sounds good :-)
  266. # [15:21] <othermaciej> Lachy: sent
  267. # [15:21] <othermaciej> Lachy: the three files starting with js- are the framework
  268. # [15:22] <othermaciej> elements-not-in-document.js is the substance of the test case
  269. # [15:22] <othermaciej> I might also have a script lying around to generate the wrapper HTML files for the script files (they just include the test script plus the CSS file and two helpers)
  270. # [15:23] <othermaciej> but it's pretty trivial
  271. # [15:24] <othermaciej> makes good looking output though where it is easy to spot the failures and why they fail
  272. # [15:25] <othermaciej> in addition to the basic shouldBe tests there's also shouldBeTrue, shouldBeFalse, shouldBeNaN, shouldBeNull, shouldBeUndefined and shouldThrow
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  275. # [15:35] <Lachy> othermaciej, thanks
  276. # [15:41] <gsnedders> BBC News today reporting 4 in 5 15 y/os drink. That sounds far too lower amount.
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  278. # [15:45] <Lachy> gsnedders, that sounds about right. I was one of the 1 in 5 that didn't drink at that age.
  279. # [15:45] <gsnedders> Lachy: Here it is certainly higher than 4 in 5. Even 9 in 10 seems low to me.
  280. # [15:46] <gsnedders> (I am that 1, no matter how many that is in :P)
  281. # [15:46] <Philip`> Does it mean 4 in 5 drink, or 4 in 5 say they drink when asked on a survey?
  282. # [15:47] <gsnedders> Philip`: The claim is the former due to the latter.
  283. # [15:47] <gsnedders> If they just admitted it was the latter there would me less questioning by me :P
  284. # [15:49] <Lachy> gsnedders, do you believe that ~1 out of 5 lied by saying they didn't, when they actually do?
  285. # [15:49] <gsnedders> Lachy: Yes.
  286. # [15:49] <Lachy> what if some said they did, but actually don't
  287. # [15:50] <gsnedders> I doubt that would happen, though.
  288. # [15:50] <gsnedders> I know nobody who claims that
  289. # [15:50] <Lachy> maybe the only thing the survey can reliably tell us is that 15 year old kids can't be trusted
  290. # [15:50] <gsnedders> I know plenty of people who claim they don't drink, though
  291. # [15:50] * Quits: alp (n=alp@host-84-9-46-160.dslgb.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  292. # [15:51] <gsnedders> (But having seen them drink I can tell you it isn't true)
  293. # [15:51] * alp` is now known as alp
  294. # [15:51] <Lachy> gsnedders, what's your reason for not drinking?
  295. # [15:52] <gsnedders> Lachy: Well, I get allergic reactions drinking the slightest amount
  296. # [15:52] <Lachy> or were you just one of the liars? :-)
  297. # [15:52] <Lachy> oh, that sucks
  298. # [15:52] <Philip`> gsnedders: The group of people you know is quite possibly not representative of the entire country, so you can't use your anecdotes to argue against people who used Science and got written about on a website and must be true
  299. # [15:52] <Lachy> allergic to just beer, or all alcohol?
  300. # [15:52] <gsnedders> (where slightest amount means even a sip, not half a bottle as some of my friends would take it to be true)
  301. # [15:52] <gsnedders> Lachy: Beer, wine, whiskey. Never tried anything else.
  302. # [15:53] * Quits: sverrej (n=sverrej@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  303. # [15:53] <gsnedders> Philip`: Oh, the parties at the beach include most of the top two years of my school :P
  304. # [15:53] <Philip`> (That is, the general concept of Science, not the international weekly journal)
  305. # [15:53] <Lachy> try Vodka Cruisers, Biccardi Breezers, or things like that
  306. # [15:53] <gsnedders> (that's around 470 people)
  307. # [15:53] <Philip`> You could try water instead
  308. # [15:53] <Lachy> ... but don't do it till you're 18!
  309. # [15:53] <Lachy> (or whatever the legal drinking age is in your country)
  310. # [15:53] <gsnedders> Lachy: I fear what they'll do to me with their strength if I am allergic
  311. # [15:54] <gsnedders> Lachy: (5, with parental consent in private)
  312. # [15:54] <gsnedders> Lachy: (14 with food in restaurants)
  313. # [15:54] <Lachy> really? 14 is legal?
  314. # [15:54] <gsnedders> There's something at 16, too
  315. # [15:55] <Lachy> wow. In Australia, it's 18 in any public venue. Not sure if there's an explicit age limit for drinking in private
  316. # [15:55] <gsnedders> Hm, it's changed
  317. # [15:55] <Lachy> which country are you in?
  318. # [15:55] <gsnedders> It's no longer 14, but 16.
  319. # [15:55] <gsnedders> Scotland
  320. # [15:55] <gsnedders> We need alcohol for our northern European drinking culture (i.e., getting drunk every weekend)
  321. # [15:55] <gsnedders> (if not every day)
  322. # [15:56] <Lachy> ah, right. I guess, over there, it's rare for anyone to be sober :-)
  323. # [15:57] <gsnedders> I really can't think of many people who don't drink.
  324. # [15:57] <gsnedders> Maybe five or so out of one hundred, so one in twenty don't.
  325. # [15:58] * gsnedders finds a quote from IRC in IM logs
  326. # [15:58] <gsnedders> "The editor RECOMMENDS eating pasta while implementing this specification. Lachlan Hunt RECOMMENDS eating hamburgers while implementing this specification."
  327. # [15:58] * Joins: phsiao (n=shawn@nat/ibm/x-17e4a58d1cabe584)
  328. # [15:58] <Lachy> was that from the discussion about beetroot on burgers?
  329. # [15:59] <gsnedders> No, RSS5 saying, "Authors MUST NOT use this language. The editor RECOMMENDS usage of The Atom Syndication Format. [RFC4287]", I think
  330. # [15:59] <gsnedders> 20080115
  331. # [15:59] <gsnedders> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20080115#l-633
  332. # [16:00] * Joins: qwert666 (n=qwert666@acbj55.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)
  333. # [16:00] <Lachy> yeah, that's the one. See elsewhere in the logs where I listed the essential ignredients
  334. # [16:00] <gsnedders> There are so many lovely things in IM logs between me and molz
  335. # [16:01] <gsnedders> E.g., (I know she won't mind me quoting this): "02:59:09 Molly Holzschlag: you are NOT awake"
  336. # [16:01] <gsnedders> How to start a conversation :)
  337. # [16:05] <gsnedders> Oh, and now me shouting, "I AM PERFECTLY NORMAL"
  338. # [16:08] <gsnedders> Hah!
  339. # [16:08] <gsnedders> It's all so lovely.
  340. # [16:08] <gsnedders> Who is cuter, me or Hixie?
  341. # [16:09] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  342. # [16:11] <Lachy> gsnedders, why would you ask such a question?
  343. # [16:11] <Philip`> Sounds like a very dangerous question to answer
  344. # [16:12] <Lachy> my answer would be neither, since, AFAIK, neither of them are girls and thus not cute at all
  345. # [16:13] * Joins: roc (n=roc@ip67-152-80-226.z80-152-67.customer.algx.net)
  346. # [16:13] <Philip`> Are small fluffy male kittens unable to be cute?
  347. # [16:13] <Lachy> only if they have a cute caption. Otherwise, I don't like cats
  348. # [16:14] <gsnedders> Lachy: Discussion myself and Molly got into for no apparent reason
  349. # [16:14] <Lachy> oh, and there's aways exceptions for children
  350. # [16:14] <gsnedders> Lachy: Actually, it more a monologue by Molly
  351. # [16:14] <Philip`> What about uncaptioned hamsters?
  352. # [16:15] <Philip`> They're always cute as long as you keep your fingers away from their mouths
  353. # [16:15] <Lachy> Philip`, I don't know. I haven't seen a LOLHamster
  354. # [16:15] <gsnedders> Lachy: According to Molly, Hixie has been wrecked by power, so me
  355. # [16:17] <Lachy> http://xkcd.com/262/ :-D
  356. # [16:18] <gsnedders> Oooo… /me is getting some XKCD t-shirts!
  357. # [16:19] <annevk> their alt sucks btw
  358. # [16:19] <Lachy> which ones?
  359. # [16:19] <annevk> seems they just copied the title
  360. # [16:21] <Philip`> http://www.ohnorobot.com/index.pl?comic=56&s=gluing+captions
  361. # [16:21] <Philip`> Transcriptions do exist, so presumably it'd be nice to use them as alt text
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  372. # [18:11] <hasather> Is http://www.opera.com/dragonfly/ done counting for everyone, or is there some TZ issue?
  373. # [18:12] <hasather> no, should be live: http://twitter.com/opera/statuses/804779359
  374. # [18:12] <hasather> works now
  375. # [18:13] <Philip`> hasather: It sends me to http://www.opera.com/products/dragonfly/ which has a download link
  376. # [18:13] <hasather> Philip`: yes, didn't work one minute ago for me
  377. # [18:13] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
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  379. # [18:16] <Philip`> It's kind of odd that it's "Built using the open web standards you know and love" but starts with <viewport xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"> which seems not entirely standard
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  382. # [18:19] * MikeSmith is looking at Dragonfly page now
  383. # [18:19] <MikeSmith> wasn't there supposed to be a feature related to remote debugging?
  384. # [18:20] <MikeSmith> that is, HTTP debugging proxy like Fiddler?
  385. # [18:20] <Philip`> MikeSmith: "Debug pages whether they are on your computer or a supported device, such as a Windows Mobile phone running Opera Mobile 9.5."
  386. # [18:20] <Lachy> oh, when was dragon fly publicly announced?
  387. # [18:20] <MikeSmith> ah
  388. # [18:20] <Philip`> ... "You can connect to any device running Presto Core-2.1 or above, and debug using your computer’s screen and keyboard – No need to struggle inputting test data with your phone’s keypad again."
  389. # [18:21] * Philip` assumes that won't work for Opera Mini
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  403. # [18:55] <MikeSmith> hendry: you there?
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  418. # [19:25] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: dunno if you already know about this but here are some test cases that might be interesting to you: http://www.validome.org/lang/en/errors/ALL
  419. # [19:31] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: for xml documents, perhaps you should compare the root element with the mime type and complain about image/svg+xml containing xhtml?
  420. # [19:35] * Joins: jwalden (n=waldo@RANDOM-THREE-O-EIGHT.MIT.EDU)
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  424. # [19:44] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: the message "Quirky doctype." is a bit unhelpful i think -- it's unclear what's wrong and what to do about it
  425. # [19:44] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: consider <!DOCTYPE php PUBLIC "-// ...
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  429. # [19:58] <zcorpan_> hmm? validome seems to think that entities in id='' is not allowed
  430. # [20:04] * Quits: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  431. # [20:04] <gsnedders> so, how far are people on GTA4?
  432. # [20:04] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  433. # [20:05] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: you don't seem to allow whitespace in the legacy encoding declaration (between text/html; and encoding=...)
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  435. # [20:14] <takkaria> zcorpan_: I thought that the spec mandates that
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  438. # [20:35] <zcorpan_> takkaria: mandates what?
  439. # [20:38] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-a4098013c04c68a0)
  440. # [20:39] <takkaria> zcorpan_: nm, I checked the spec anyway and I was wrong
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  443. # [20:49] <gsnedders> annevk: you asked me to expand on mid:E5851D3C-1B2C-49F0-9A23-61A56DD4A4FC@googlemail.com — do you want me to bring the thread up again now?
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  448. # [21:04] <gsnedders> Philip`, jgraham__: any thoughts about where to go for (this!) Friday?
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  453. # [21:31] <jgraham__> gsnedders: Lets decide a place to meet then improvise
  454. # [21:31] * jgraham__ votes for meeting somewhere closer to the IoA than the Millpond :)
  455. # [21:32] <gsnedders> That's further for me though!
  456. # [21:32] <gsnedders> And the closer we get, the less well I know where I am (which isn't good when I haven't really been to Cam. much in years)
  457. # [21:34] * jgraham__ has to go eat now
  458. # [21:34] <gsnedders> But you don't know where you're eating on Friday!
  459. # [21:43] <Philip`> gsnedders: What kind of time is it likely to be?
  460. # [21:43] <gsnedders> Philip`: What suits you two?
  461. # [21:43] <gsnedders> I arrive at around 4pm, IIRC
  462. # [21:43] <Philip`> Anything that's not too late and not too early would be just right
  463. # [21:43] <gsnedders> And I'm not doing anything else all day, apart from travelling
  464. # [21:44] <Philip`> I'll be at the Computer Lab during the day, but could leave whenever I wanted to
  465. # [21:44] <gsnedders> 15:08 I arrive at the station
  466. # [21:44] <gsnedders> Or at least, I'm _meant_ to arrive at the station :)
  467. # [21:45] <gsnedders> 6pm or so at the earliest would be best, IMO
  468. # [21:47] <gsnedders> I'm open to suggestions as to where to meet anywhere where I know in Cambridge (which is mostly just the centre)
  469. # [21:51] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@La24a.l.pppool.de) ("Leaving")
  470. # [21:52] * Philip` notes that he is useless at suggesting anything
  471. # [21:53] <Philip`> I don't know much other than the straight line between King's and Sainsbury's
  472. # [21:53] <gsnedders> Heh.
  473. # [21:54] <gsnedders> Philip`: And you've been in Cam. for how long?
  474. # [21:54] <Philip`> Only 3.5 years
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  477. # [21:54] <gsnedders> You need to get out more! :P
  478. # [21:54] <Philip`> I'm happy enough without doing so :-)
  479. # [21:55] * gsnedders notes his latest tweet: "Too many vertices, not enough edges, in the graph of my mind."
  480. # [21:56] <Philip`> The more important measurement is how many faces you have
  481. # [21:57] * Quits: jwalden (n=waldo@RANDOM-THREE-O-EIGHT.MIT.EDU) (Remote closed the connection)
  482. # [21:57] <gsnedders> No, you've got it wrong :P
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  485. # [22:16] <jgraham__> We could meet outside Kings
  486. # [22:16] <jgraham__> That seems like a happy medium
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  490. # [22:34] <Philip`> jgraham__: Sounds reasonable to me
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  508. # [23:55] <Hixie> good lord
  509. # [23:58] <Philip`> ?
  510. # [23:58] <Hixie> i am seriously fed up with people asking me about copyright stuff
  511. # [23:58] <Hixie> who
  512. # [23:58] <Hixie> the hell
  513. # [23:58] <Hixie> cares
  514. # [23:59] <Hixie> i hate the RIAA for making everyone so damn paranoid
  515. # Session Close: Wed May 07 00:00:00 2008

The end :)