/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-05-08 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu May 08 00:00:01 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  8. # [00:09] * Hixie gets some gold-level valuable feedback from people at Google working on pages that use contentEditable
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  10. # [00:10] * gsnedders wants platinum-level valuable feedback
  11. # [00:10] <gsnedders> Then I can sell it! Mwhahaha!
  12. # [00:12] <Hixie> your market would consist of just me
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  14. # [00:13] <gsnedders> I know, that's slightly problematic.
  15. # [00:13] <gsnedders> You don't have much competition pushing the value up.
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  17. # [00:14] <gsnedders> That's it. I'm writing HTML 2π.
  18. # [00:14] <tommorris> You are competing with the XHTML 2 Working Group. ;)
  19. # [00:15] <Hixie> i recommend not taking on more work than you can do :-P
  20. # [00:15] <Hixie> given you're already doing HTTP5 and the spec preprocessor :-)
  21. # [00:15] <gsnedders> Hixie: Already done that :P
  22. # [00:16] <gsnedders> GTA4, HTTP5, spec-gen, participating in far too many WGs, writing short stories. Oh, and school.
  23. # [00:16] <gsnedders> Or should I say, Secondary5.
  24. # [00:16] <gsnedders> :P
  25. # [00:16] <gsnedders> Next year of school sucks. Sixth year! 5 > *.
  26. # [00:17] * Quits: billmason (n=billmaso@ip96.unival.com) (".")
  27. # [00:18] <gsnedders> Hixie: Oh, and meaning to help with XML5, but never finding the time to do so.
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  29. # [00:20] <tommorris> XML 5? For chrissakes, Sun's already done the version number thing. Stop it already. :)
  30. # [00:20] <gsnedders> tommorris: And Bible5, too.
  31. # [00:21] <gsnedders> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2007Jun/0008.html
  32. # [00:22] <tommorris> "Happy shall USER AGENT be that dasheth BLOCK LEVEL ELEMENTS against the rocks."
  33. # [00:23] <gsnedders> tommorris: that doesn't look like en-gb-x-Hixie to me
  34. # [00:26] <tommorris> The Old Testament specification seems quite clear - kill gay people, don't eat shellfish and don't wear cloths of more than two types of fabric. I blame liberal parsing rules.
  35. # [00:26] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-validator/2008May/0045.html
  36. # [00:27] <Hixie> what am i looking for?
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  39. # [00:34] <gsnedders> tommorris: No, it's not as simple as gay people. Men who have sex with other men.
  40. # [00:34] <jgraham> hsivonen: Fun
  41. # [00:34] <tommorris> that's defined in the accompanying normative BNF segment and referenced test suite
  42. # [00:35] <gsnedders> tommorris: And besides, Jesus depreciated the old testament
  43. # [00:35] <gsnedders> Also, don't sleep with a women and her mother. That's punishable by death too.
  44. # [00:35] <tommorris> Jesus: the original quirks mode parser.
  45. # [00:36] <gsnedders> Leviticus 20 is always nice.
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  52. # [00:55] <gsnedders> Hixie: If not taking on more work than you can do is your advice for today, can I have some more daily advice tomorrow? :P
  53. # [00:56] <Hixie> no, i have too much work tomorrow
  54. # [00:57] <gsnedders> Then it isn't daily advice :(
  55. # [00:57] <gsnedders> Weekly?
  56. # [01:00] <hsivonen> should I reply to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008May/0090.html or just let t be?
  57. # [01:00] <Hixie> depends whether by replying you can advance your agenda
  58. # [01:01] <Hixie> (e.g. whether you can make the web better)
  59. # [01:01] <Dashiva> Wouldn't that be 'our' agenda, not just his? :)
  60. # [01:01] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.108.247)
  61. # [01:01] <gsnedders> Dashiva: No, our agenda is making sure we're awesome. Is it not?
  62. # [01:01] <Hixie> i wouldn't pretend to ask him to reply to advance mine
  63. # [01:02] <gsnedders> Or to make Hixie rich and famous?
  64. # [01:02] <Dashiva> I thought he was both already
  65. # [01:02] <Dashiva> And I don't need htmlwg to convince me I'm awesome :P
  66. # [01:02] <gsnedders> Dashiva: You're awesome.
  67. # [01:02] <hsivonen> Hixie: that's the thing. I don't knwo if replying and explaining the positive/negative/zero-level stuff again helps
  68. # [01:02] <hsivonen> though the book argument seems bogus
  69. # [01:03] <Hixie> hsivonen: well, notice how i'm basically given up on that thread
  70. # [01:03] <Hixie> hsivonen: i read all the comments still, but i don't have anything to say that i haven't already said
  71. # [01:03] <Hixie> hsivonen: and nothing that has been said recently has been new in any way
  72. # [01:03] <Hixie> hsivonen: so it hasn't affected by conclusions (which were based on the earlier arguments)
  73. # [01:04] <Dashiva> I'm tempted to translate that post above as "Nobody cares about WCAG", but objectively I know it's just spite :)
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  79. # [01:19] <gsnedders> What does <> mean in SGML?
  80. # [01:20] <Hixie> start tag
  81. # [01:20] <gsnedders> Yeah, but a start tag of what
  82. # [01:21] <Philip`> Maybe it's like </> and can be inferred from context
  83. # [01:21] <Philip`> s//sometimes/
  84. # [01:21] <Philip`> (and when it can't be inferred, I assume bad things happen)
  85. # [01:21] <Dashiva> <ul><> implies <li>?
  86. # [01:22] <Philip`> <ul><>Item 1<>Item 2</ul> could make sense
  87. # [01:22] <Philip`> I might just be making this up, though
  88. # [01:24] * tommorris shudders at the thought of SGML
  89. # [01:24] * gsnedders realises he has the SGML handbook beside him
  90. # [01:24] <Dashiva> Masochist
  91. # [01:25] <Philip`> http://www.google.com/search?q=%3C%3E :-(
  92. # [01:25] <tommorris> prefers standards that have an 'X' in the name, if only because X sounds cool
  93. # [01:25] <Dashiva> XSGML
  94. # [01:25] <Hixie> yes it's the start tag of whatever only tag is allowed at that point
  95. # [01:26] <gsnedders> And if more than one tag is allowed behaviour is undefined, I guess?
  96. # [01:26] <Hixie> i forget
  97. # [01:26] <Hixie> it's been years since i read the spec
  98. # [01:27] <Philip`> tommorris: Do you prefer TORX-head screws too?
  99. # [01:27] <tommorris> so long as there is a DTD available for the screwdriver
  100. # [01:28] <Philip`> Dusty tool drawer?
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  236. # [03:52] <Hixie> man, merging wf2 is gonna be such a lot of work
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  252. # [05:39] <othermaciej> Hixie: I love that your post had a "ratholes" section
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  255. # [06:15] <Hixie> no comment
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  258. # [06:41] <Hixie> gsnedders: in some feedback you wrote "The ratio subsection of common microsyntaxes does not do what the rest of the numbers do: define what a valid number is"
  259. # [06:41] <Hixie> gsnedders: that's because there's no text that uses that concept
  260. # [06:41] <Hixie> gsnedders: so defining it would be pointless
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  271. # [07:12] <Hixie> gsnedders: similarly, the reason it doesn't report errors is that there is nothing to report
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  284. # [08:00] <Hixie> gsnedders: i am similarly ignoring other e-mails that request editorial changes that i don't think would make the spec better
  285. # [08:00] <Hixie> gsnedders: e.g. "Ratios algorithm continues beyond data (part of detailed review of common microsyntaxes)"
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  298. # [09:21] <hsivonen> I wonder if I could still get a lightning talk slot
  299. # [09:24] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: we have about 9 people signed up already, so maybe not
  300. # [09:24] <hsivonen> ok
  301. # [09:25] <MikeSmith> but if you have time, may be worth preparing some slides anyway
  302. # [09:25] <MikeSmith> last year we had a few people cancel
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  305. # [09:34] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ok
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  321. # [10:09] <othermaciej> hi annevk
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  323. # [10:10] <annevk> morning
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  326. # [10:15] <MikeSmith> http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone/chats/transcripts/08_0417_ez_ie8.mspx
  327. # [10:15] <MikeSmith> not much interesting there
  328. # [10:16] <MikeSmith> except the usual "At the moment, we're not ready to talk about features in upcoming releases, but we appreciate the input." any time anybody asks anything about standards support they currently lack
  329. # [10:16] <MikeSmith> plus some misrepresentations
  330. # [10:17] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@86.47.129.77)
  331. # [10:18] <MikeSmith> e.g., Eric Law saying that the Access Control spec "remains under heavy edit"
  332. # [10:19] <MikeSmith> and that that was why Mozilla "pulled support for the feature in their latest beta"
  333. # [10:19] <othermaciej> well, that was kind of what Mozilla sort of said
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  336. # [10:21] * annevk is presenting on Access Control today
  337. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> nifty rationalization:
  338. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> [[
  339. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> Cyrar [MSFT] (Expert):
  340. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> qwert666: Stop saying "we're not ready to talk about features for upcoming releases" all the time and be more open about what you are considering to do.
  341. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> Answer: Hey Opaque, sorry for the frustration. We generally have a policy about commenting on features that are not built, tested and ready for release. Suppose that we did comment on a feature that was important to you, but then had to cut it because quality or some other blocking factor. If you had made business plans around that feature - I imagine that you would be pretty frustrated. Our policy gives our customers more predictability in
  342. # [10:23] <MikeSmith> their planning
  343. # [10:23] <MikeSmith> ]]
  344. # [10:23] <othermaciej_> MikeSmith: Apple has the same policy sort of - so I can't cast the first stone
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  347. # [10:25] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: although by WebKit being open source we have managed to push the window for engine features back from "released to customers" to "checked in"
  348. # [10:26] <MikeSmith> yeah, exactly
  349. # [10:26] <Philip`> So they're saying their customers are stupid and will be confused by being given more information on which to base their business plans? :-)
  350. # [10:26] <othermaciej> but people do ask us "when will feature X from the WebKit nightlies make it into a Safari build"
  351. # [10:26] <MikeSmith> Philip`: yeah, kind of like the Bush administration justification for why they like to keep so much stuff secret
  352. # [10:26] <othermaciej> and we can't really answer
  353. # [10:26] <Hixie> microsoft have a policy of not talking about features that are not built, tested, and ready for release?
  354. # [10:27] <Hixie> since when?!?!
  355. # [10:27] <othermaciej> hmmm good point
  356. # [10:27] <othermaciej> Hixie: maybe that policy doesn't apply to whole new products or product lines
  357. # [10:28] <Hixie> how about, say, file systems?
  358. # [10:28] <Hixie> WinFS has been announced under various names since at least 1995
  359. # [10:28] <Hixie> i remember reading about it when i was looking at being on the Win95 beta
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  362. # [10:29] <MikeSmith> othermaciej_: so IE team could do something just like Webkit vs Safari relationship .. that is, be open about what they have in development in the engine, but no guarantees if or when it actually will make it into IE
  363. # [10:29] <othermaciej_> dude that was totally ready
  364. # [10:29] <othermaciej_> WinFS was ready for the world
  365. # [10:29] <othermaciej_> but the world was not ready for it
  366. # [10:29] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  367. # [10:30] <Hixie> which time that it was pulled was it not ready?
  368. # [10:30] <Hixie> er i mean, was the world not ready?
  369. # [10:30] * MikeSmith wonders if anybody knows John Hrvatin
  370. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> "...y name is John Hrvatin. I'm the program manager for developer tools, jscript engine integration, and HTML editing support."
  371. # [10:31] <othermaciej> Hixie: just wait until you see all the awesome things coming in Windows Mobile 9 and Windows 7
  372. # [10:31] <othermaciej> Hixie: then you'll forget all about this
  373. # [10:31] <Hixie> mmm
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  380. # [10:34] <Philip`> Seems like their unwillingness to talk about the future doesn't just apply to technical features - "As for any future cake plans, I'm afraid we consider all bakery related strategies highly confidential."
  381. # [10:35] <othermaciej> they sent the firefox guys a cake but they never sent us one at apple
  382. # [10:35] <Philip`> Did you ever send them one?
  383. # [10:36] <othermaciej> no, but they didn't send us one first
  384. # [10:37] <Philip`> Maybe they are waiting for you to make the first move
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  386. # [10:39] * zcorpan_ wonders where a 32768x32768 icon would be used
  387. # [10:39] <zcorpan_> or even 8192x8192
  388. # [10:40] <zcorpan_> is it normal for .icns to have such sizes?
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  393. # [10:50] <Philip`> zcorpan_: The largest I see out of about a hundred <link>ed .ico files is 48x48
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  395. # [10:51] <Philip`> I'm not aware of many desktop systems that expect 8K-wide icons
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  397. # [10:51] <Philip`> though I thought there were at least some that could use vector (SVG) icons, for which size doesn't make sense
  398. # [10:53] <Lachy> Mac OSX icons go up to 512x512. 8192x8192 is bigger than most (if not all) desktop wallpapers!
  399. # [10:53] <annevk> if sizes is not specified does it mean any?
  400. # [10:53] <annevk> it also doesn't seem clear what happens when there's multiple icons with the same set of sizes
  401. # [10:54] <annevk> should the UA inspect them all, take the first, etc.
  402. # [10:54] <annevk> take the first non-broken
  403. # [10:54] <zcorpan_> annevk: not specified should mean unknown
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  405. # [10:55] <annevk> how is that useful?
  406. # [10:55] <annevk> nm
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  409. # [10:59] <Hixie> zcorpan_: it was a joke on the ridiculousness of mac "icons" these days (though apparently it went above everyone's heads :-P)
  410. # [11:00] <zcorpan_> Hixie: ah :)
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  412. # [11:01] * Philip` is surprised that .ico files (i.e. DIBs) aren't limited to 64Kx64K
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  414. # [11:10] <gsnedders> Hixie: Hey, you want my feedback from last summer to be useful!?
  415. # [11:10] <Hixie> some of it is :-)
  416. # [11:10] <gsnedders> Some of it finds major issues with the algorithms, actually. So some :)
  417. # [11:11] * gsnedders is online as he is at home as there's no point in him even being at school before this essay is finished.
  418. # [11:11] <gsnedders> Fun :\
  419. # [11:17] <gsnedders> Hixie: Now I need to go and fix my test cases of that section :P
  420. # [11:18] <Hixie> can someone with IE send me the results of this test in IE? http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/flow/image-maps/004-demo.html
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  424. # [11:19] <zcorpan_> Hixie: "'http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/flow/image-maps/004-demo.html' is currently unavailable."
  425. # [11:19] <Hixie> o_O
  426. # [11:19] <zcorpan_> ah now it works..
  427. # [11:20] <Hixie> probably my memory allocation a bit low
  428. # [11:20] <zcorpan_> 50%...
  429. # [11:20] <Philip`> Any particular versions of IE?
  430. # [11:20] * zcorpan_ tests in ie8b
  431. # [11:21] <zcorpan_> acts as separatorU+0, U+20, U+2c, U+3b
  432. # [11:21] <zcorpan_> long list... Total for "acts like a decimal point": 17882
  433. # [11:22] <zcorpan_> acts as digitU+30 - U+39
  434. # [11:22] <Hixie> can you mail me the list?
  435. # [11:22] <Hixie> ian@hixie.ch
  436. # [11:22] <zcorpan_> sure
  437. # [11:22] <Hixie> thanks dude
  438. # [11:22] <Philip`> In IE8b1 I get "aborts parsing" at the end; in IE6 I get "<AREA shape=RECT coords=1,0,2,2>" at the end
  439. # [11:22] <Philip`> (and neither version has the other section)
  440. # [11:22] <Hixie> ooo
  441. # [11:22] <Hixie> mail me the IE6 list too :-)
  442. # [11:22] <Hixie> pretty please :-)
  443. # [11:22] <Philip`> This is IE6 in Wine so I don't know if that makes things go weird
  444. # [11:23] <Hixie> that's fine
  445. # [11:23] <zcorpan_> hmm ie8 hanged when i tried to select all :(
  446. # [11:23] <Hixie> huh
  447. # [11:23] <Hixie> that's what i got
  448. # [11:23] <Hixie> i figured it was a VMWare problem
  449. # [11:23] <Hixie> wtf
  450. # [11:24] <gsnedders> IE8b1 needs a bigger emphasis on the beta part :)
  451. # [11:24] <zcorpan_> ie6 doesnt' work for me
  452. # [11:24] <Hixie> script error?
  453. # [11:24] <zcorpan_> no ie6 never works for me. it doesn't load pages
  454. # [11:25] <Philip`> My IE6 doesn't load any UI, but the browser bit works fine
  455. # [11:25] <hsivonen> I think I need to ask the annual microformat question in a few minutes
  456. # [11:26] <zcorpan_> Hixie: does the page create many text nodes?
  457. # [11:26] <Hixie> yes
  458. # [11:26] <zcorpan_> Hixie: maybe that's what fucks up selection
  459. # [11:26] <Hixie> Philip`: thanks
  460. # [11:27] <Hixie> zcorpan_: yeah
  461. # [11:27] <Hixie> zcorpan_: quite possible
  462. # [11:27] <Hixie> ok i got the list from Philip`, that should do
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  464. # [11:27] <Philip`> Hixie: Also sent the list from IE7 in real Windows, in case that's relevant
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  466. # [11:28] <Philip`> I seem to get very different output in every version of IE
  467. # [11:28] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  468. # [11:28] <Hixie> Philip`: thanks
  469. # [11:29] <Philip`> I wonder if IE5.0 still works...
  470. # [11:29] <Hixie> wtf
  471. # [11:29] <Hixie> why would ie6 and ie7 give different results
  472. # [11:29] <Philip`> Alas, script error in IE5 :-(
  473. # [11:30] <Philip`> Hixie: Maybe they use system APIs to detect whether characters are decimal points, and those APIs are working differently?
  474. # [11:30] <Hixie> craazy
  475. # [11:30] <zcorpan_> Hixie: i managed to copy it now
  476. # [11:30] <hsivonen> annual question asked
  477. # [11:31] <hsivonen> answer: the microformat folks are lazy
  478. # [11:31] <Hixie> hsivonen: what's the question? "do you have a spec yet?"
  479. # [11:31] <hsivonen> yeah
  480. # [11:31] <Philip`> "Why are they called Microformats and not Mozformats?"
  481. # [11:31] <Philip`> or Appformats, which sounds like a reasonable name
  482. # [11:32] <Lachy> I have an interview about HTML5 next thursday evening for boagworld.com. I get to pick the topics that will be discussed. Any suggestions for what I should talk about?
  483. # [11:32] <Hixie> zcorpan_: did you mail the list from IE8?
  484. # [11:33] <Hixie> Lachy: you and the interviewer? or you and someone else? or?
  485. # [11:33] <hsivonen> Lachy: bringing parsing to non-browsing apps
  486. # [11:33] <Hixie> zcorpan_: nm, got them, thanks!
  487. # [11:34] <Hixie> ie8 is same as ie7, it seems
  488. # [11:34] <zcorpan_> Hixie: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008May/0015.html
  489. # [11:34] <Hixie> yeah i got it
  490. # [11:34] <Hixie> thanks
  491. # [11:34] <Lachy> Hixie, I don't understand your question.
  492. # [11:34] <Hixie> Lachy: are they interviewing you, or is this a panel discussion, or?
  493. # [11:34] <Hixie> Lachy: what's the context?
  494. # [11:34] <Philip`> Lachy: Do you know who the audience is? (Like do they already know of HTML5?)
  495. # [11:35] <Lachy> AFAIK, it's Paul Boag interviewing me.
  496. # [11:35] <Philip`> Hixie: They don't seem the same - I get quite different output from IE7 (on Win2K3) and IE8 (on Vista)
  497. # [11:35] <Lachy> boagworld.com seems to be a podcast aimed at web developers
  498. # [11:35] <Hixie> zcorpan_'s list was the same as yours as far as i could tell
  499. # [11:35] <Lachy> so they're likely to at least know what HTML is
  500. # [11:35] <Hixie> maybe it's OS-based
  501. # [11:36] <gsnedders> Philip`: That should be an em dash, not a hyphen!
  502. # [11:37] <Hixie> Lachy: i'd focus on the community we've built up
  503. # [11:37] <Hixie> Lachy: i think it's something that hasn't been widely recognised, and is probably the biggest achievement of the effort so far
  504. # [11:38] <zcorpan_> Hixie: if you do document.body.innerHTML=document.body.innerHTML then selection works fine
  505. # [11:38] <Hixie> zcorpan_: heh
  506. # [11:42] <gsnedders> zcorpan_: would not just normalising the Document object have the same affect?
  507. # [11:42] <zcorpan_> gsnedders: how do you normalise the Document object?
  508. # [11:43] <Lachy> Hixie, ok. Do you mean how things like the blog, wiki, forums, mailing lists, etc. are all open to anyone, and how they're maintained by volunteers from the community?
  509. # [11:43] <gsnedders> zcorpan_: Document.normalizeDocument()
  510. # [11:43] <Hixie> Lachy: yeah, and how we're gotten so much input from people all over the place, and how people just volunteer to do stuff
  511. # [11:43] <gsnedders> actually, in this case, just Document.normalize() should be enough
  512. # [11:44] <gsnedders> And people just volunteer to do too much stuff, more than they can do :)
  513. # [11:44] <zcorpan_> gsnedders: just gives a js error in ie8
  514. # [11:44] <gsnedders> zcorpan_: both of them?
  515. # [11:44] <zcorpan_> gsnedders: yeah
  516. # [11:44] <gsnedders> Oh well.
  517. # [11:44] <Lachy> yeah, I guess that could be more interesting than just the boring technical details
  518. # [11:45] <Lachy> hsivonen, what kind of non-browsing apps did you have in mind?
  519. # [11:45] <Lachy> other than validators
  520. # [11:45] <gsnedders> Lachy: sanitisers?
  521. # [11:45] <Philip`> Select-all on that test page in IE8 does work, it just takes somewhere between one and ten minutes
  522. # [11:46] <Lachy> CMSs too, I guess
  523. # [11:46] <gsnedders> Lachy: look at what WP does, for example
  524. # [11:47] <gsnedders> Lachy: Converting HTML to XHTML
  525. # [11:47] <Hixie> gsnedders: i fixed the list of integers stuff based on your feedback and on the test case peopel were just playing with
  526. # [11:48] <gsnedders> Hixie: Now I need to fix my test case/impl. which is how I found some of the bugs in the first place :)
  527. # [11:48] <Hixie> cool
  528. # [11:48] <gsnedders> (probably do that on the train tomorrow)
  529. # [11:48] <gsnedders> (and there's free wi-fi, so I may be online once or twice)
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  531. # [11:58] <zcorpan_> Hixie: fwiw, i think the demo would be faster in ie if you build up an array, join(', ') and then append a single text node
  532. # [11:58] <Hixie> yeah
  533. # [11:58] <Hixie> it was supposed to be a one-off
  534. # [11:58] <Hixie> so it just kind of evolved
  535. # [11:58] <Hixie> for the record, IE's parsing of coords='' is fricking wacked
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  538. # [11:59] <Hixie> gsnedders: the reason not to treat newlines the way you suggested is that IE doesn't.
  539. # [11:59] <gsnedders> Hixie: remind me what I suggested?
  540. # [12:00] <Hixie> that newline, etc, be added to the list of separators
  541. # [12:00] <Hixie> along with space
  542. # [12:00] <Hixie> same again with your complaint regarding "1. 1" parsing to 1,1 -- that's what IE does.
  543. # [12:02] <Hixie> regarding your request that the spec be stylisticly consistent (that the ratios section use the same style as the the other algorithms)... yeah, that'd be nice. but i'm not rewriting the spec, it's too easy to introduce errors.
  544. # [12:02] <gsnedders> :P
  545. # [12:03] * gsnedders finally finishes his essay, and can head off to school
  546. # [12:04] <Hixie> later
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  548. # [12:10] <hsivonen> Lachy: Pingback, Open ID, Atom feed aggregators, microformat scrapers, templating systems (incl. XSLT)
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  550. # [12:15] <Hixie> ok the only thing on http://www.whatwg.org/issues/top that isn't on my list of things i'm not doing yet which hasn't been dealt with yet is the ruby stuff
  551. # [12:17] <Hixie> i guess i just have to make some semi-arbitrary decision about how to parse ruby
  552. # [12:17] <Hixie> since IE's parsing of ruby is a mess and nobody else does it as far as i know
  553. # [12:19] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I seem to remember you listing workers somewhere as a work item you're planning on putting time into at some point. Is that still for post HTML 5?
  554. # [12:19] <Hixie> http://hixie.ch/specs/dom/messages/0.9 http://hixie.ch/specs/dom/workers/0.9
  555. # [12:20] <Hixie> if it gets implementation traction i'll bring it into html5
  556. # [12:20] <MikeSmith> Ok, thanks
  557. # [12:20] <Hixie> i'd rather implementations work on other html5 things though
  558. # [12:20] <Hixie> like <datagrid>
  559. # [12:20] <MikeSmith> datagrid would be definitely great to have
  560. # [12:21] <MikeSmith> has any implementors shown signs of planning to work on datagrid implementations?
  561. # [12:21] <MikeSmith> that might have been a good opportunity for Google SoC
  562. # [12:22] <othermaciej> I think we had it as a suggestes GSoC project for WebKit but no one took the bait
  563. # [12:22] <othermaciej> we have students planning to do XBL2 and WF2 though (the former might be too big a project)
  564. # [12:23] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: yeah, I noted that at the end of the presentation I did yesterday
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  566. # [12:23] <MikeSmith> which, fwiw, is online here:
  567. # [12:23] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/2008/Talks/05-07-smith-xtech/
  568. # [12:24] <MikeSmith> and PDF here: http://w3.org/2008/Talks/05-07-smith-xtech/slides.pdf
  569. # [12:24] <MikeSmith> also noted the SVG Filters plan
  570. # [12:24] <Dashiva> Hey MikeSmith, got time for a chat?
  571. # [12:24] <MikeSmith> Dashiva: aye
  572. # [12:26] <annevk> othermaciej, cool that WebKit will do WF2!
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  580. # [12:37] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: pretty good summary of what is new in browser land
  581. # [12:46] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: just tried to cover the last 12 months (since the previous XTech in May 2007)
  582. # [12:48] <MikeSmith> but putting it together, surprised me how much has gotten new stuff has gotten implemented/refined in that relatively short amount of time
  583. # [12:49] <virtuelv> MikeSmith: were you at Bert's talk?
  584. # [12:49] <MikeSmith> virtuelv: nope
  585. # [12:49] <MikeSmith> why you ask?
  586. # [12:49] <othermaciej> there was actually quite a bunch of new stuff in Safari 3.1
  587. # [12:49] <othermaciej> engine-wise
  588. # [12:49] <virtuelv> because someone asked me for the URL, and I'm incapable of remembering it
  589. # [12:49] <othermaciej> I neglected to make a comprehensive blog post at the time but I may try again soon
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  597. # [13:03] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: a comprehensive blog post would be great :)
  598. # [13:03] <MikeSmith> another thing that has changed over the last 12 months
  599. # [13:03] <MikeSmith> is that back in May/June of last year,
  600. # [13:03] <MikeSmith> you guys were hardly blogging at all at webkit.org
  601. # [13:04] <MikeSmith> but since then, you and dhyatt quite prolific
  602. # [13:05] <othermaciej> I see 8 blog posts in June 2007
  603. # [13:05] <MikeSmith> OK, well, I guess May
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  626. # [14:13] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: great presentation
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  638. # [15:04] <MikeSmith> Hixie: you still awake?
  639. # [15:05] <MikeSmith> virtuelv: I asked Bert to find you and let you know the URL for his slides
  640. # [15:09] <virtuelv> MikeSmith: I know, I got the URL just now, he's sitting next to me
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  642. # [15:38] <Lachy> Hixie, the spec is too big. I tried loading it on my new OLPC yesterday, and it seemed to consume all the memory and get unresponsive.
  643. # [15:40] <Philip`> There's already the multipage spec for people with rubbish hardware/software :-)
  644. # [15:40] <Lachy> or maybe that's just because Firefox is slow and using up too much memory on it
  645. # [15:40] <Lachy> yeah, but I don't like the multipage version. It makes it harder to switch between sections
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  647. # [15:41] <Philip`> Could the multipage version be improved to reduce that problem?
  648. # [15:41] <Lachy> But it means I won't be able to replace my MacBook Pro with it
  649. # [15:42] <Lachy> Philip`, only by combining it into a single page
  650. # [15:42] <Philip`> Lachy: What do you need that isn't handled by inline links and the table of contents?
  651. # [15:44] <Lachy> the ability to search the entire spec for what I'm looking for, without having to know exactly which section it's in and finding that section in the TOC first
  652. # [15:44] <Philip`> So a 'search' box could solve that problem?
  653. # [15:45] <Lachy> it might be useful to have some sort of spec search, but I like to use the find-as-you-type feature in my browser, which is instant in most cases.
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  655. # [15:47] * Philip` doesn't like his browser's find-as-you-type feature since it freezes for ten seconds trying to highlight every occurrence of the search term's first letter in the spec
  656. # [15:47] <Lachy> Philip`, are you using Opera?
  657. # [15:47] <Philip`> Yes
  658. # [15:47] <Philip`> (9.2)
  659. # [15:48] <Philip`> (It's much faster in 9.5)
  660. # [15:48] * Lachy tries it in 9.5
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  663. # [15:51] <Lachy> weird, Opera's find-as-you-type feature seems to be skipping the TOC in the spec
  664. # [15:52] <Dashiva> Not for me (9.5)
  665. # [15:52] <Lachy> e.g. if I type "the body", in Firefox I get "The body element" link in the TOC highlighted, so I can just press enter to go there. In opera, it takes me to elsewhere in the spec first.
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  667. # [15:53] <Philip`> "the body" works for me in 9.2, fails in 9.5 (1933)
  668. # [15:54] <Lachy> that's could be a known bug, I will check
  669. # [15:54] <Philip`> I don't think it's skipping the TOC, it's just skipping the nested elements
  670. # [15:55] <Dashiva> The <code>body</code>
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  673. # [15:59] <Lachy> Dashiva, it seems to be more complcated than that.
  674. # [16:00] <Lachy> I'll file a bug and have someone in desktop analyse it.
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  676. # [16:04] <Lachy> ah, it's to do with whitespace in the source code.
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  682. # [16:26] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: you got your slides ready?
  683. # [16:26] <MikeSmith> deb says we can fit you in
  684. # [16:26] <MikeSmith> or if you don't have them ready, please do get them ready
  685. # [16:26] <MikeSmith> and send them to xtech-lightning@usefulinc.com
  686. # [16:27] <MikeSmith> or at least the URL if you have them online
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  688. # [16:31] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yeah, practically ready
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  691. # [16:35] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: thanks
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  693. # [16:40] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: slides sent
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  696. # [16:42] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: thanks
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  703. # [17:19] <zcorpan_> Hixie: what does "Draft Recommendation" mean?
  704. # [17:29] <Philip`> All specs start as Not Working, then go to Working Draft then Draft Recommendation then Recommendation and then they're obsolete and you can start again
  705. # [17:29] <Philip`> It's a nice smooth cycle
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  715. # [17:44] <zcorpan_> Philip`: i'd expect a next Not Working or Working Draft be started during Draft Recommendation stage, if those are the stages
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  718. # [17:50] <hsivonen> anne is about to speak
  719. # [17:50] <hsivonen> Steven Pemberton's talk inspired a lot of commentary from the floor
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  723. # [18:02] * MikeSmith smiles at Philip` description of spec lifecycle
  724. # [18:05] <hsivonen> anne tells us that OPTIONS is now supported everywhere
  725. # [18:06] * Philip` wonders what "everywhere" means
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  729. # [18:14] <MikeSmith> Doug Crockford commenting on Anne's presentation about Access-Control spec: "It should be abandoned"
  730. # [18:14] <Philip`> Do I get a prize for guessing what it should be replaced with?
  731. # [18:15] <MikeSmith> "cookies have always been bad... I'm not blaming you for cookies"
  732. # [18:17] <MikeSmith> "we need to create a new class of service, so those are going to need to have new APIs [for cross-site requests]"
  733. # [18:18] <MikeSmith> chaals: You might only care about enabling Ajax apps only, but we have to care about the rest of the Web as well [e.g., XBL, XSLT, etc.]
  734. # [18:19] <Lachy> Is Crockford promoting JSONRequest again?
  735. # [18:19] <MikeSmith> Lachy: no, actually
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  737. # [18:19] <Lachy> wow
  738. # [18:20] <Lachy> is it JSONRequest2 this time?
  739. # [18:20] <MikeSmith> he was just commenting in general about what problems he thinks need to be solved and how they should be solved
  740. # [18:20] <Lachy> I wish I was there
  741. # [18:20] <Lachy> is there an audio stream available?
  742. # [18:20] <MikeSmith> nope
  743. # [18:21] * zcorpan_ appriciates the scribing.. :)
  744. # [18:21] <MikeSmith> he's making some good points here
  745. # [18:21] <Lachy> I blame chaals for not sending me
  746. # [18:21] <MikeSmith> he says he is encouraged by the cross-document messaging spec
  747. # [18:23] <MikeSmith> arve now challenging him on why he says iframe communication is better than cross-site request mechanisms
  748. # [18:23] <MikeSmith> crockford said it is absolutely better because it provides better encapsulation
  749. # [18:23] <Lachy> does anyone have skype? If so, call me so I can listen to it
  750. # [18:24] <MikeSmith> he says the frustration we are all dealing with is that the current state of the art does not permit it to build the kinds of apps we want to build
  751. # [18:24] <MikeSmith> Lachy: what's your Skype handle?
  752. # [18:24] <Lachy> lachlanhunt
  753. # [18:25] <gsnedders> How very imaginative.
  754. # [18:25] <Lachy> :-)
  755. # [18:25] <MikeSmith> hsivonen talking now
  756. # [18:26] <MikeSmith> Lachy: me is sideshowbarker
  757. # [18:26] <MikeSmith> tried to call you but got refused
  758. # [18:26] <MikeSmith> call me
  759. # [18:26] <zcorpan_> can i call too? :)
  760. # [18:26] <Lachy> I can't hear anything
  761. # [18:27] <MikeSmith> Lachy: we are in a big room
  762. # [18:27] <MikeSmith> sorry
  763. # [18:27] <Lachy> can you turn up your mic volume?
  764. # [18:27] <MikeSmith> Lachy: I can try
  765. # [18:27] <Lachy> it just got a bit louder then
  766. # [18:28] <Lachy> till you held the call
  767. # [18:28] * zcorpan_ hears something
  768. # [18:28] <Lachy> MikeSmith, can you make it a conf call?
  769. # [18:28] <MikeSmith> I could if I knew how
  770. # [18:29] <Lachy> you should be able to right click on my name and say add to call
  771. # [18:29] <Lachy> or something like that
  772. # [18:30] <Lachy> there's a lot of noise
  773. # [18:31] <Lachy> ok, I can hear it well now
  774. # [18:31] <MikeSmith> that's because I'm sitting right next to anne
  775. # [18:31] <MikeSmith> so you're hearing anne
  776. # [18:32] <MikeSmith> hsivonen talking now
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  781. # [18:45] <Lachy> MikeSmith, are there any more talks tonight, or was that the last?
  782. # [18:52] <annevk> in Microsoft talk
  783. # [18:53] <annevk> silverlight brings the web and desktop together or something
  784. # [18:54] <MikeSmith> Lachy: I can Skype you in to Silverlight talk if you want
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  786. # [18:55] <MikeSmith> at 7pm local time, we do lightnight talks
  787. # [18:55] <MikeSmith> lightning
  788. # [18:55] <MikeSmith> .NET is a completely new way to do application design and development
  789. # [18:55] <Philip`> If a speaker is unpopular, do they get electrocuted?
  790. # [18:56] <MikeSmith> Philip`: no, they get the gong
  791. # [18:56] <MikeSmith> gong show
  792. # [18:57] <Lachy> can you ask them to give the Microsoft speaker the gong? No-one wants to hear about silverlight. That's a dead technology.
  793. # [18:58] <Lachy> unless he's talking about why it failed.
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  795. # [19:01] <hsivonen> Lachy: MS is paying for the privilige to give this pitch
  796. # [19:01] <annevk> did he just say? as you can see we have lots of bugs?
  797. # [19:01] <annevk> s/say?/say:/
  798. # [19:01] <annevk> s/bugs?/bugs./
  799. # [19:02] <hsivonen> supporting many browsers costs more than only doing silverlight
  800. # [19:02] <hsivonen> allegedly
  801. # [19:02] * Philip` can usually support three browsers for quite little cost
  802. # [19:02] <hsivonen> now pitching their debugger over Firebug
  803. # [19:03] <annevk> ooh wait
  804. # [19:03] <annevk> he's saying how complex the web platform is, clearly i should pay more attention
  805. # [19:03] <hsivonen> the point seems to be that Debugging in IE.old suck compare to silverlight
  806. # [19:04] <annevk> he's now talking "blah blah blah" and hsivonen and i are confused :)
  807. # [19:04] <hsivonen> did he just say view source is a problem?
  808. # [19:05] <annevk> "it's pretty, look"
  809. # [19:07] * Philip` wonders if anyone else in the audience is being more convinced by the presentation
  810. # [19:07] <hsivonen> "no portability issue"
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  812. # [19:07] <Lachy> how long is each lightning talk?
  813. # [19:07] <annevk> "easier than javascript, 1/3 development time, more usable, obviously"
  814. # [19:08] <annevk> "deployment issues, Flash had that too"
  815. # [19:08] <hsivonen> Lachy: 20 times 20 seconds
  816. # [19:09] <annevk> "Microsoft is not about taking over Flash, ??, whatever"
  817. # [19:09] <hsivonen> "it's not about taking over Flash"
  818. # [19:09] <annevk> "It's for when you use .NET already and make desktop applications?" ???
  819. # [19:09] * annevk wonders how that relates to the JavaScript pitch
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  822. # [19:12] <MikeSmith> Lachy: each 20x20 talk is 6 minutes 40 seconds total (maximum)
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  826. # [19:23] <Lachy> MikeSmith, I couldn't hear it very well at all. So it'd be easier for me to just read whatever you can write in here
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  832. # [20:34] <Lachy> anne's talk was quite good. I could hear him quite clearly (unlike previous speakers)
  833. # [20:35] <annevk> thanks
  834. # [20:35] <annevk> it was totally unprepared
  835. # [20:35] <annevk> except for the slides :)
  836. # [20:37] <annevk> now is RDFa
  837. # [20:37] <annevk> next is Henri again on HTML5
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  842. # [21:00] <annevk> my presentation is here: http://annevankesteren.nl/2008/xtech-html5 (requires support for media=projection and <img src=svg>
  843. # [21:00] <annevk> )
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  845. # [21:03] <hsivonen> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/xtech2008/
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  859. # [21:47] <Hixie> ISSUE-41 seems to make two assumptions that I believe to be false:
  860. # [21:49] <Hixie> 1. that making html into a generic syntax is desireable, or that having generic syntaxes available for web authors to extend with custom vocabularies arbitrarily is desireable, or that there will be enough new standard vocabularies that the cost of adding new syntax each time is an important factor in the deployment of a new language
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  862. # [21:50] <Hixie> 2. that it is possible to extend html's parsing model in a generic way without running into compatibility problems with legacy content or with the copy-and-paste mentality of authors while the new syntax is being deployed
  863. # [21:55] <Hixie> i guess there's no point trying to raise these points (which I've already raised) before the tag gets to do its thing
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  882. # [22:56] <Hixie> hahahahaha
  883. # [22:56] <Hixie> i just remembered
  884. # [22:56] <Hixie> we're in 2008 Q2
  885. # [22:56] <Hixie> it's time to publish a LC!
  886. # [22:57] <gsnedders> FPWD to LC. Fun!
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  894. # [23:15] <tommorris_> is my brain operating correctly, or is there a teleconference today?
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  896. # [23:16] <tommorris_> ah, yes, midnight london time is the cal
  897. # [23:16] <tommorris_> *call
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  904. # [23:30] * Joins: eseidel_ (n=eseidel@72.14.224.1)
  905. # [23:44] * Quits: csarven (n=csarven@on-irc.csarven.ca) ("http://www.csarven.ca")
  906. # [23:45] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@c-24-130-11-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  907. # [23:48] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  908. # [23:48] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  909. # [23:59] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@124-168-55-13.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("bye")
  910. # Session Close: Fri May 09 00:00:00 2008

The end :)