/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-05-09 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri May 09 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  9. # [00:37] <Hixie> i was going to deal with http://www.w3.org/mid/tkrat.c998060f76b1e71c@greytower.net (which i just got to in my pile of feedback)
  10. # [00:37] <Hixie> but i disagree with almost every single point
  11. # [00:38] <Hixie> mcarter: did you ever send your feedback on TCPConnection?
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  13. # [00:43] <mcarter> Hixie, I have an initial draft, though I was trying to get a working demonstration first though
  14. # [00:44] <Hixie> k
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  16. # [00:45] <Hixie> i'll wait til you've sent your feedback before looking at that section, so as to not make mistakes you have already covered in your feedback :-)
  17. # [00:45] <mcarter> You should be able to expect javascript+proxy daemon that will speak the current protocol, and a proposed protocol by the end of next week
  18. # [00:45] <Hixie> cool
  19. # [00:45] <Hixie> no rush
  20. # [00:46] <mcarter> I'm pretty excited about this stuff actually
  21. # [00:46] <mcarter> Its not so much that I'm rushing, rather all my time is going into it these days
  22. # [00:46] <Hixie> :-)
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  25. # [01:03] * aroben kind of liked DOMStrong
  26. # [01:03] <Hixie> he
  27. # [01:03] <Hixie> h
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  32. # [01:28] <Hixie> hsivonen: not sure what to do about http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-July/012131.html
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  41. # [02:07] <Lachy> Hixie, yt?
  42. # [02:08] <Lachy> Typo in the definition for the sizes attribute "If the specified, the attribute..."
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  44. # [02:13] <Hixie> Lachy: fixed
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  46. # [02:16] <Lachy> Hixie, why have you included 8192x8192 and 32768x32768 in the example? Aren't they a bit excessive?
  47. # [02:17] <Hixie> man, nobody understands my sense of humour :-/
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  85. # [06:39] <MikeSmith> heh
  86. # [06:39] <MikeSmith> comment on Mark Pilgrim's blog:
  87. # [06:40] <MikeSmith> commenter: I can’t help but think what an arrogant a$$ you’d have to be
  88. # [06:40] <MikeSmith> Mark replies: You must be new here.
  89. # [06:40] <MikeSmith> http://diveintomark.org/archives/2008/05/07/when-the-fall-is-all-thats-left#comment-12014
  90. # [06:42] <Hixie> heh
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  92. # [06:49] <othermaciej> I got into a stupid flamewar on reddit over Mark's post
  93. # [06:49] <othermaciej> I am embarassed for myself
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  96. # [06:51] <othermaciej> hey roc
  97. # [06:51] <roc> hey
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  102. # [07:14] <Hixie> othermaciej: uri? :-)
  103. # [07:14] <othermaciej> Hixie: I'm too embarassed
  104. # [07:16] <Hixie> heh
  105. # [07:17] <othermaciej> ok if you really want to see it it's here: http://reddit.com/info/6igdz/comments/ but the thread is downvoted so it's a little buried
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  108. # [07:28] <roc> ok, now I have to guess which one of these people is maciej. that should be fun
  109. # [07:28] <othermaciej> my reddit nick is obvious
  110. # [07:28] <doublec> "That's like telling me to go ahead and rationalize away being so smart and good looking.:
  111. # [07:28] <doublec> hehe
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  113. # [07:30] <othermaciej> I'm not entirely embarassed about that part
  114. # [07:30] <roc> oh, right. I'm just a reddit noob
  115. # [07:31] <othermaciej> just resorting to "do you know who I am?!?!?" at the end
  116. # [07:31] <doublec> well, he did ask
  117. # [07:32] <doublec> he didn't appear to believe you though - unless he really is the ff team lead. Somehow I doubt it.
  118. # [07:37] <jwalden> I, for one, welcome our new ff team overlord
  119. # [07:39] <Hixie> wow, that guy really was more of a jerk
  120. # [07:40] <Hixie> i love how he didn't reply :-)
  121. # [07:43] <roc> our Gecko team isn't that much bigger, actually
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  125. # [08:24] <Hixie> hsivonen: i don't really understand what i should do to address http://www.w3.org/mid/01575703-3A06-4F51-BE27-86A9EBB44C54@iki.fi
  126. # [08:24] <Hixie> hsivonen: in particular, i don't know what to say about xmlns that isn't either obvious, or out of scope
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  136. # [08:58] <MikeSmith> Hixie: r1577 typo : "keywods"
  137. # [08:58] <Hixie> thanks, in the queue
  138. # [08:59] <MikeSmith> and comment: might it better be, "User agents must process the links on a per-*keyword* basis" (instead of "per-link" basis) ?
  139. # [09:01] <Hixie> nah, it's per-link, not per keyword
  140. # [09:01] <Hixie> e.g. link rel="alternate stylesheet" is one link
  141. # [09:01] <Hixie> and <link rel="up up icon"> is two links
  142. # [09:02] <MikeSmith> ah, OK
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  152. # [09:20] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i agree entirely with your mail... so... how do we get a changelog? :-)
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  154. # [09:22] <annevk> morning
  155. # [09:23] <Hixie> heya
  156. # [09:23] <Hixie> how's xtech?
  157. # [09:23] <Hixie> i haven't seen any controversial blog posts about any hot happenings yet
  158. # [09:27] <MikeSmith> Hixie: we get it by somebody taking time to sit down and write it up
  159. # [09:28] <MikeSmith> which I can help with (or do alone if I have to) starting this weekend (when I get back home to tokyo from dublin) and first part of next week
  160. # [09:28] <Hixie> the working group hasn't had much luck waiting for things to happen that way
  161. # [09:28] <MikeSmith> yeah
  162. # [09:29] <MikeSmith> which is why I think to make sure it gets done I will probably need to be the one to write it up
  163. # [09:31] <MikeSmith> unless some magic shoemaker's elves or something sneak in and do it first
  164. # [09:31] <annevk> Hixie, crockford attended my presentation which gave some discussion
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  166. # [09:31] <Hixie> annevk: ooh, do tell
  167. # [09:31] <annevk> the lightning talks were pretty funny
  168. # [09:32] <annevk> but there was no real new information :(
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  170. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> Hixie: about XTech, Doug Crockford was at annevk session on Access Control spec, and we had a 15-minute discussion at the end of that
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  172. # [09:32] <Hixie> what was there to discuss?
  173. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> er, what annevk just said :)
  174. # [09:32] * MikeSmith types too slow
  175. # [09:32] <annevk> his claims that the spec should be abondoned
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  177. # [09:32] <annevk> (art explicitly asked for his feedback at the end of the talk)
  178. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> yeah, "abandoned" was his exact word
  179. # [09:33] <MikeSmith> though he had great things to say about the cross-document messaging spec
  180. # [09:33] <annevk> also that we should solve everything with it and that lots of complexity for people like hsivonen is acceptable (hsivonen explained how easy Access Control was to implement for him)
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  183. # [09:35] <annevk> other things: lightning talk introducing HTML5 concept from me and on HTML5 parsing from hsivonen
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  185. # [09:35] <annevk> talk on RDFa that showed quite complex examples (the funny bit was that the namespace declarations were not shown which would've made it near impossible to grasp)
  186. # [09:36] <Hixie> sounds like the same thing as 2005
  187. # [09:36] <Hixie> glad i didn't go
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  190. # [09:43] <annevk> it was mostly meeting the other people that made it good
  191. # [09:44] <annevk> though some of the stuff was interesting too, such as what SilverLight is doing, how OAuth works, that OpenID 2 is incompatible with OpenID 1, etc.
  192. # [09:46] <Hixie> what's silverlight doing?
  193. # [09:47] <annevk> it was quite confused, but the interface stuff they're doing looks quite fancy
  194. # [09:47] <annevk> they're far ahead in ready components and all though libraries will solve that problem for us I guess
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  196. # [09:48] <annevk> he also advocated against cross-browser scripting and all quite a bit
  197. # [09:49] <annevk> quite aggresively, I suppose, though he also said it wasn't about replacing Flash (yeah right)
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  203. # [10:10] <Hixie> annevk: it's about replacing html, not flash
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  205. # [10:12] <othermaciej> a little of both I think
  206. # [10:13] <Hixie> flash has like 2% of the content market tops
  207. # [10:13] <Hixie> they're doing a platform play, to replace their windows monopoly -- that means 98%, not 2%.
  208. # [10:14] <roc> I think it's both
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  210. # [10:14] <roc> flash isn't dominant now, but they're afraid it could be
  211. # [10:15] <Hixie> oh i'm sure they're not ignoring it
  212. # [10:15] <Hixie> i just mean that that isn't their primary goal
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  225. # [11:08] * Lachy wonders how many sites actually use silverlight at all?
  226. # [11:09] <Lachy> I've only ever seen it used on microsoft.com, and I refused to install the plugin
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  229. # [11:20] <gsnedders> writing unambiguous ABNF is hard.
  230. # [11:20] <gsnedders> (and the damned signal is broken so I'm stuck nowhere on a train)
  231. # [11:20] <gsnedders> (and we literally just started moving!)
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  234. # [11:23] <Philip`> It ought to be possible to get tools that check ABNF for ambiguities
  235. # [11:23] <Philip`> No idea if such things exist, though
  236. # [11:23] <gsnedders> I don't think so, sadly
  237. # [11:23] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  238. # [11:24] <Philip`> You could write it in a real parser-generator language, and have that parser-generator check for ambiguity, then manually translate it into ABNF
  239. # [11:25] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  240. # [11:25] <gsnedders> I guess, but I'm lazy :)
  241. # [11:26] <gsnedders> (train stuck again, still not made it to Inverkeithing)
  242. # [11:26] <gsnedders> (hopefully will make it to Cam. by 16:00 though)
  243. # [11:26] <gsnedders> (certainly before I'm meant to meet you and jgraham_ though)
  244. # [11:29] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  245. # [11:31] <othermaciej> yacc or bison makes it pretty straightforward to write a checked grammar
  246. # [11:31] <othermaciej> (just make all the actions empty)
  247. # [11:31] * Quits: alp (n=alp@host-84-9-44-207.dslgb.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  248. # [11:32] <Philip`> http://ejohn.org/blog/processingjs/
  249. # [11:32] <gsnedders> I'm not sure if I can bothered to learn another language, though
  250. # [11:32] <gsnedders> yacc is similar to BNF, no?
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  253. # [11:35] * Philip` sees that olliej (I think) already complained about how it uses ImageData non-conformingly
  254. # [11:35] <Philip`> (and also in a way that won't work if there's !=1 device pixel per canvas pixel)
  255. # [11:37] * gsnedders wonders if anything actually uses the CRLF allowed in LWS in HTTP/1.1
  256. # [11:38] * gsnedders has only ever seen it in test-cases
  257. # [11:38] * Joins: annevk2 (n=annevk@86.47.129.77)
  258. # [11:38] <gsnedders> (i.e., do I actually have to allow LF there?)
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  272. # [11:58] <gsnedders> http://pastebin.ca/1012564 — header-value is what was causing me issues at making sure it was unambiguous
  273. # [11:59] <gsnedders> anybody able to check that?
  274. # [12:01] <gsnedders> (no, I don't trust myself)
  275. # [12:03] <Philip`> What does "unambiguous" mean?
  276. # [12:04] <gsnedders> free of anything that is unclear
  277. # [12:04] <gsnedders> i.e., it is completely clear
  278. # [12:04] * Philip` hopes it just means there's a single parse tree for any input, else he's confused
  279. # [12:04] * Joins: tommorris (n=tommorri@i-83-67-98-32.freedom2surf.net)
  280. # [12:05] <gsnedders> well, in the case of ABNF, there's no character which could match more than one production where it is in the string
  281. # [12:06] <gsnedders> Philip`: I can give you an English lesson tonight, if you want :P
  282. # [12:06] <othermaciej> in the case of grammars, "ambiguous" means something more specific than clear/unclear
  283. # [12:07] <othermaciej> it means there's only one way to parse
  284. # [12:07] <othermaciej> if you use an ABNF-like LALR(1) parser generator, it will report shift-reduce or reduce-reduce conflicts in such cases
  285. # [12:07] <othermaciej> though it is possible the grammar isn't ambiguous but you have just hit a limitation of LALR(1)
  286. # [12:07] * gsnedders sucks at defining English
  287. # [12:07] <othermaciej> still, it is a pretty good approximation
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  289. # [12:08] <othermaciej> I do think yacc/bison would make for a good way to test a grammar
  290. # [12:08] <gsnedders> othermaciej: I have enough to do without learning even more :)
  291. # [12:08] <gsnedders> (languages, that is)
  292. # [12:08] <othermaciej> this grammar might be simple enough for lex to do it
  293. # [12:09] * Joins: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  294. # [12:09] * gsnedders has an English exam next week, and a French one the week after
  295. # [12:10] <gsnedders> othermaciej: Where do you come from, with a name like Maciej, BTW?
  296. # [12:10] <othermaciej> gsnedders: straight outta hell
  297. # [12:11] <gsnedders> othermaciej: Ah. OK.
  298. # [12:11] <gsnedders> (No, seriously?)
  299. # [12:12] <gsnedders> Doing it in ABNF gives me a reason to write an ABNF checker, that checks for ambiguities, though
  300. # [12:12] <gsnedders> Not that I'll bother, probably :P
  301. # [12:12] <othermaciej> yacc is just a tool
  302. # [12:13] <othermaciej> learning its (trivial) syntax is almost certainly easier than writing a program to parse a different syntax and do the same checks
  303. # [12:13] <gsnedders> yacc is just another tool you have to learn how to use :)
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  305. # [12:14] <Philip`> Learning how to use a tool is much easier than making your own, and often it's easier than doing your work without the tool
  306. # [12:14] <Philip`> Also it's a good opportunity for procrastination
  307. # [12:15] * Philip` has spent a lot of time playing with LaTeX when he's meant to be writing reports
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  309. # [12:18] <gsnedders> That's true. I just end up playing around with type-setting maths in LaTeX :P
  310. # [12:21] * gsnedders wonders how to do this without being ambiguous
  311. # [12:23] <gsnedders> I need to properly parse headers, while still allowing garbage headers
  312. # [12:24] * Philip` doesn't notice any obvious ambiguity in the 'header' thing
  313. # [12:25] <gsnedders> Philip`: In what I linked? Good.
  314. # [12:25] <gsnedders> Now to make it far more complex and more likely wrong.
  315. # [12:26] <gsnedders> I want something like `invalid-header = *( header-content / lws ) [CR] LF`, but that is totally ambiguous
  316. # [12:26] <gsnedders> (combined with the valid header)
  317. # [12:30] <gsnedders> ("If a strict parser is in use, and anything is matched by the invalid-header rule, it is a fatal error.")
  318. # [12:30] <Philip`> ABNF is not a good way to do this :-p
  319. # [12:30] <gsnedders> It is mostly totally fine.
  320. # [12:31] <gsnedders> There are very few quirks like that
  321. # [12:31] <Philip`> Mostly, except for all the error handling
  322. # [12:31] <gsnedders> There's very little error handling at a parser level :)
  323. # [12:31] <gsnedders> It's mostly a case of either it is totally invalid, which is always a fatal error, or has a garbage as a header, which is a fatal error only in strict parsers
  324. # [12:32] <gsnedders> Once you start doing header specific stuff, then you get real quirks. But I'm not using ABNF for that.
  325. # [12:32] <Philip`> Seems easiest to say something like "If a prefix of the string matches 'header', then process it like a header. Otherwise, fatal error if strict, else skip to the next line"
  326. # [12:32] <Philip`> rather than trying to work out how to make a grammar rule that's a complement of another
  327. # [12:33] <gsnedders> It's actually really horrible to do using prose. I tried doing parts of it using prose, and it was far harder
  328. # [12:33] <gsnedders> I almost ended up using POSIX regex, as that not only has a format specification, but has negation, which ABNF does not
  329. # [12:34] <Philip`> Normal regexps only give you a boolean output, which isn't very useful when you want to get an HTTP header out of it
  330. # [12:35] <gsnedders> "Taking all matches and submatches of the header rule…"
  331. # [12:35] <gsnedders> or the "named header submatch"
  332. # [12:35] <gsnedders> It's certainly possible to do
  333. # [12:35] <Philip`> Just invent your own string-parsing grammar formalism
  334. # [12:36] <gsnedders> It's nicer to use ABNF as then I can just say, "This specification inherits all the rules from RFC3986, which as they are already given in ABNF they are not repeated here."
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  337. # [12:37] * Philip` goes away for a while
  338. # [12:37] <gsnedders> See you at 7, then
  339. # [12:37] <Philip`> Or 7:05 if I'm late
  340. # [12:38] <Philip`> It should only take me 24 minutes to get there, but I'm never very good at departing on time
  341. # [12:41] <gsnedders> Philip`: As long as you recognise me and James :P
  342. # [12:41] * Quits: aaronlev (n=chatzill@e176248097.adsl.alicedsl.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  343. # [12:42] <gsnedders> Philip`: And I don't have a clue how long it takes me to get there, as I don't know where I'm coming from, and I don't know how long it takes to get around Cambridge
  344. # [12:52] <gsnedders> ABNF is too vague. It doesn't specify what to do if multiple alternations match a given input
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  363. # [15:00] <zcorpan> Hixie: how about "HTML <code>Document</code>" and "XML <code>Document</code>"?
  364. # [15:02] <zcorpan> Hixie: that should make it clearer that it's about the dom and not a strem of bytes
  365. # [15:02] <zcorpan> s/strem/stream/
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  385. # [17:07] <Hixie> zcorpan: yeah maybe
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  387. # [17:13] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  388. # [17:13] <Hixie> good to see the accessibility experts dismiss the problems hit by people using ATs...
  389. # [17:15] <Lachy> Hixie, are you referring to this? http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/misc/uc/
  390. # [17:15] * Lachy is just reading it now
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  393. # [17:22] * Philip` assumes it's a reference to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008May/0016.html
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  395. # [17:29] <Lachy> In the section Complex Data Images, in their proposal, it seems that they're using alt for text that would be more appropriate for either title="" or as an image caption.
  396. # [17:30] * Quits: roc (n=roc@ip67-152-80-226.z80-152-67.customer.algx.net)
  397. # [17:31] * Parts: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  398. # [17:33] <Lachy> and it seems they didn't figure out what the example from the spec "Bubbles traveled everywhere with us" is actually a picture of. But I guess, it's a bit obscure from the caption.
  399. # [17:34] <Lachy> http://flickr.com/photos/carinda/1100670787/ Clearly, bubbles is a cat :-)
  400. # [17:35] <Philip`> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008May/0079.html sounds like a reasonable argument that empty alt="" (as the spec requires) in those cases is bad, since it removes the distinction between purely decorative images (which you can happily ignore) and informative images (which you might want to see as text by default, but go to some extra effort to see when you decide the image is interesting)
  401. # [17:40] <Lachy> For those cases, I still like the kind="" attribute I suggested a few days ago, where for the example in the email, it would be: <img src="rendering-mode-pie-chart.png" kind="Pie Chart" alt="">
  402. # [17:41] <Lachy> I don't like the importantimage attribute, since it's likely to suffer from copy and paste errors, and be included where it shouldn't, and it's harder to detect whether or not it should be there.
  403. # [17:41] <Philip`> Why is that better than <img alt="Pie Chart" importantimage>? It's worse because it hides the important image entirely from current UAs, and I'm not sure (/can't remember) what makes it better overall
  404. # [17:41] <Philip`> Ah
  405. # [17:42] <Philip`> importantimage won't suffer from copy and paste errors because nobody will ever bother using it and so it won't be copied :-)
  406. # [17:42] <Lachy> with an attribute that says a) what the image is and b) why it's important, errors are more likely to be detected, and it would be easy to analyse with hsivonen's image report tool.
  407. # [17:42] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  408. # [17:43] <Philip`> With the importantimage thing, the alt attribute says (in combination with its human-understable context) what the image is and why it's important
  409. # [17:44] <Lachy> but it also pretends that the text given is its alternative, when it isn't.
  410. # [17:44] <Lachy> it's entirely possible to have an important image with a good alt text supplied
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  412. # [17:44] <Philip`> It doesn't pretend the text is an alternative, if the spec doesn't say that the alt text is necessarily an alternative
  413. # [17:45] <Lachy> yes it does
  414. # [17:45] <Lachy> that's the whole point of it.
  415. # [17:45] <Lachy> also, importantimage is a really bad name
  416. # [17:45] <Philip`> The point is to help users, and users might be better helped if alt text isn't always a strict alternative
  417. # [17:46] <Philip`> I agree that particular syntax isn't much good
  418. # [17:47] <Lachy> importantimage suffers from many of the same problems as noalt
  419. # [17:47] <Lachy> it's basically the same thing with a different name
  420. # [17:48] <Philip`> importantimage images will still have alt text, so non-hyper-intelligent UAs won't be totally stuck when trying to present the image textually
  421. # [17:49] <Philip`> and people won't stick in importantimage to make the validator shut up, because their pages will be equally machine-checkably-valid regardless of whether they have that attribute
  422. # [17:49] <Lachy> kind="" also gives additional information about the picture, which may not necessarily come from the alt text. http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20080506#l-162
  423. # [17:50] <Philip`> alt="A painting of a white house with ..."
  424. # [17:50] <Philip`> What are UAs meant to do with 'kind'?
  425. # [17:50] <Lachy> same thing they're supposed to do with importantimage, but also say what kind of image it is
  426. # [17:54] <Philip`> If all they're doing is serialising the alt and kind values and some connecting words into a text stream (like "Image type: Painting. The house is ..."), why not have authors put that whole serialised text into the alt attribute (alt="Image type: Painting. The ...") instead of adding the complexity of an extra attribute?
  427. # [17:56] <Lachy> a better example would be the flowchart one from the spec:
  428. # [17:56] <Lachy> <img src="images/parsing-model-overview.png" alt="The network passes data to the Tokeniser stage..." kind="Flowchart">. It would seem wrong to say alt="A flowchart illustrating how the network...".
  429. # [17:57] <Lachy> the UA doesn't need to read out the kind by default if there is alt text supplied. Only if the user asks for it.
  430. # [17:58] <Philip`> Why would the user want to know that the image a flowchart?
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  432. # [17:58] <Philip`> Why would the user explicitly ask for it when it's going to say "no 'kind' was specified" for pretty much 100% of images?
  433. # [17:59] <Philip`> (I think your argument makes sense, but I'm not convinced yet :-) )
  434. # [18:00] <Lachy> it depends how the UA indicates its presence, or what kind of UA it is
  435. # [18:01] <Philip`> It seems it would be useful to work from concrete examples of what some UAs could/would do, rather than just presenting some metadata and hoping someone else will figure out what to do with it
  436. # [18:02] <Lachy> for a screen reader, it could use any aural indicator to to indicate the presence of more information (like, e.g. a sound effect in the background as it's reading the alt text (probably a bell or tone of some kind)
  437. # [18:03] <Lachy> for a text only UA like Lynx, it could include it by default in the textual output somehow. e.g. [Image (Flowchart): The network....]
  438. # [18:06] <Lachy> I think screen readers should have done something similar things with other hidden metadata like longdesc. IIRC, users have to ask for it without knowing it's there in current implementations.
  439. # [18:08] <Philip`> Why would users of screen readers or Lynx want to know it's a flowchart?
  440. # [18:10] <Lachy> to help them decide if it's worth downloading and opening in external viewer, espcially if they want to zoom in on it to see it better
  441. # [18:15] <Philip`> I'm not sure why that would help them decide in a non-negligible number of non-contrived cases - I expect they would care about the information presented by the image (which they can find from the alt attribute) when deciding whether to look at it more closely, not about whether it's presented as a flowchart or a photo or a cartoon
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  443. # [18:17] <Philip`> and it might be a photo of a flowchart, and the author will spend lots of time deciding what an appropriate 'kind' is, when actually it's a waste of time because it won't help people enough to be worthwhile
  444. # [18:19] <Lachy> it doesn't have to be used all the time
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The end :)