/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-05-10 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat May 10 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  12. # [00:46] * Philip` 's hands are cold :-(
  13. # [00:47] <jgraham> Heh
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  21. # [01:03] <jwalden> the latest opera beta didn't have new-style postMessage support, did it?
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  30. # [01:26] <hsivonen> I was reading about externality taxing in the CO2 context on the plane
  31. # [01:27] <hsivonen> the economics of it seem applicable to inaccessible Web pages
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  33. # [01:27] <hsivonen> except tracking tax on those would be more difficult
  34. # [01:29] <jwalden> "on the plane"?
  35. # [01:29] <jwalden> er
  36. # [01:29] <hsivonen> jwalden: while flying back from Dublin
  37. # [01:29] <jwalden> nm me
  38. # [01:29] <jwalden> misparsing
  39. # [01:29] <jwalden> was binding "the CO2 context on the plane" as one unit
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  41. # [01:30] * hsivonen notes that Tim Harford writes about "moral posturing" in the absence of externality taxing
  42. # [01:31] <hsivonen> threatening people with lawsuits is a kind of an externality tax
  43. # [01:31] <hsivonen> but an uncertain one that applies only to big companies
  44. # [01:31] <jwalden> a hideously less efficient one, to be sure
  45. # [01:31] <jwalden> courts and lawsuits epitomize deadweight loss
  46. # [01:31] <hsivonen> yeah
  47. # [01:32] <hsivonen> I'm not a fan of lawsuit threatening as part of the accessibility advocate argument set
  48. # [01:32] <othermaciej> I think it would be hard to justify a large tax on inaccessible web pages on a Pigovian basis
  49. # [01:33] <othermaciej> in fact pure economic analysis might find the cost of making web pages accesible exceeds the likely economic benefit
  50. # [01:33] <othermaciej> I'm also not sure lack of accessibility can be modeled as a negative externality
  51. # [01:33] <othermaciej> rather, it is failure to provide a positive good to some people
  52. # [01:34] <othermaciej> pollution is a negative externality
  53. # [01:34] <othermaciej> giving free candy to some people but not others isn't
  54. # [01:34] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I agree that presence should be considered a positive thing, but you can't start subsidising anyone with an inane Web site for making it accessible
  55. # [01:36] <othermaciej> current approaches to accesibility in law involve neither subsidy nor tax
  56. # [01:36] <othermaciej> rather they rely on legal notions of public accomodation, and impose regulations on anything considered such
  57. # [01:37] * jwalden is reasonably happy with how that's fallen out so far
  58. # [01:37] <othermaciej> well, it does create unintended consequences
  59. # [01:37] <hsivonen> I thought in the U.S. they relied on punitive damages acting as a probabilistic externality tex
  60. # [01:37] <hsivonen> tax
  61. # [01:37] <jwalden> I'm not sure what actually motivates orgs at the end of the day
  62. # [01:38] <othermaciej> hsivonen: the same could be said of most regulations
  63. # [01:38] <jwalden> government business is at least part of it
  64. # [01:38] <hsivonen> othermaciej: indeed
  65. # [01:38] <othermaciej> however the risk of damages does create unintended consequences
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  67. # [01:38] <othermaciej> for instance, since the ADA passed, unemployment among the disabled is up
  68. # [01:38] <hsivonen> yeah, 508-based government sales are the carrot
  69. # [01:39] <jwalden> on the other hand, I seem to recall it was this channel that mentioned <http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/20/magazine/20wwln-freak-t.html?_r=1&oref=slogin> once
  70. # [01:39] <othermaciej> government business seems like a better motivator
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  72. # [01:39] <gavin_> hsivonen posted that link, I remember
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  88. # [02:35] <Hixie> i love the guy who said that having <p> was bad because it wasn't machine checkable and proposed <div role=paragraph> as a solution
  89. # [02:35] <othermaciej> lol
  90. # [02:35] <Lachy> which mailing list was that on?
  91. # [02:37] <hsivonen> Lachy: public-html and wai-xtech
  92. # [02:37] <Lachy> found it
  93. # [02:39] <Hixie> vlad wants 'textStyle' instead of 'font', for consistency with <canvas> APIs instead of CSS
  94. # [02:39] <Hixie> opinions?
  95. # [02:39] <Lachy> I did some major restructuring of selectors api. It's now a lot more organised, but still have to fix up the nsresolver requirements
  96. # [02:40] <Philip`> Hixie: Makes sense to have 'text' in the name, for consistency with every other text-drawing property and method
  97. # [02:40] <Philip`> and also makes it clearer that it's a CSS style thing, not just a font name
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  99. # [02:41] <othermaciej> Hixie: would the value of 'textStyle' be a font name?
  100. # [02:42] <Hixie> othermaciej: it would be the css 'font' property
  101. # [02:42] <othermaciej> I think it should be called 'font'
  102. # [02:42] <othermaciej> most graphics APIs describe the way to draw text with a "font", not a "text style"
  103. # [02:43] <othermaciej> whereas they do have notions like "line style" or whatever
  104. # [02:43] <othermaciej> so I do not buy the consistency argument
  105. # [02:43] <Hixie> ok in that case please reply to vlad's e-mail :-)
  106. # [02:43] <Philip`> People seem to use CSS properties like 'font-family' far more than they use 'font', so the analogy between the canvas API and CSS doesn't really work since people aren't familiar with 'font'
  107. # [02:44] <othermaciej> right, I forgot that 'font' is a shorthand
  108. # [02:44] <othermaciej> it would be more appropriate to provide individual properties for the pieces of that shorthand, for canvas
  109. # [02:44] <othermaciej> IMO
  110. # [02:44] <Hixie> ew
  111. # [02:44] <Hixie> we don't do that with fillStyle
  112. # [02:45] <Lachy> yeah, I think it should stay as font, for consistency with CSSOM property
  113. # [02:45] <othermaciej> Hixie: but fillStyle is not a shorthand, it's just overloaded for different types
  114. # [02:45] * Philip` imagines very few people use the font CSSOM property, so that doesn't seem a compelling reason
  115. # [02:47] <othermaciej> Hixie: I will have to do some study to give a cogent reply
  116. # [02:47] <Lachy> Philip`, it's fairly common to see people change styles by using element.style.xxx = ...; for a whole variety of styles.
  117. # [02:47] <Lachy> although I can't say how frequently each property is used
  118. # [02:48] <Philip`> othermaciej: So instead of saying "ctx.font = '10pt Arial'" when you want to set the font and aren't sure of the current canvas state, you'd have to say "ctx.fontStyle = ctx.fontVariant = ctx.fontWeight = 'normal'; ctx.fontSize = '10pt'; ctx.fontFamily = 'Arial'"? That sounds quite painful...
  119. # [02:49] <Lachy> couldnt both .font as well as .fontFamily, .fontSize, etc. be provided like in CSSOM?
  120. # [02:50] <Hixie> the CSSOM needs to be optimised for reading
  121. # [02:50] <Hixie> this needs to be optimised for writing
  122. # [02:52] <Lachy> but if the author only wants to change one property, without affecting the others, then having to use the shorthand all the time would mean all properties would have to be explicitly specified, or they'd be inadvertenly reset to the defaults
  123. # [02:53] <Lachy> and changing, e.g. the font-weight requires specifying both the size and family at the same time
  124. # [02:53] <Hixie> that's the same argument as "what if you only want to change the Opacity component?"
  125. # [02:53] <Hixie> and the answer is, just implement the setter yourself
  126. # [02:53] <Hixie> instead of bloating the core API :-)
  127. # [02:54] <Philip`> Lachy: Out of lots of pages, I see approximately none setting .style.fontAnything
  128. # [02:55] <Lachy> Philip`, ok.
  129. # [02:55] <Philip`> (There's 5 setting style.font, 60 setting style.fontSize, 1465 setting style.display)
  130. # [02:55] <Philip`> (Not sure how many in total since my grep thing hasn't finished and it doesn't print any status information...)
  131. # [02:56] <Philip`> (*how many pages in total)
  132. # [02:57] <Philip`> (I really ought to compress all this data so it can be read from disk faster)
  133. # [02:57] <Philip`> (and also avoid having it spread over a hundred thousand separate files)
  134. # [03:01] <othermaciej> Hixie: my rough opinion after a bit of thought is that the current 'font' API is good as-is, but eventually canvas should be extended to have fonts as first-class objects too, so you can do things like change size or italics status or boldness level without having to do string pasting
  135. # [03:01] <othermaciej> Hixie: perhaps font objects could be added at the same time as path objects
  136. # [03:02] <othermaciej> Hixie: will try to send email along these lines soon
  137. # [03:02] <Hixie> k
  138. # [03:02] <Hixie> thanks
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  156. # [03:39] <Philip`> Lachy: http://philip.html5.org/data/cssom-set-properties.txt shows the style properties that get set in inline scripts (or things that look quite like inline scripts)
  157. # [03:39] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  158. # [03:40] <Philip`> ('font' is still pretty far down)
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  161. # [03:42] <Philip`> (Insert obvious warning about biased sample etc)
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  166. # [03:54] <Philip`> Hixie: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/status-documentation.html has typos in "Once a section is interoperably implemented, s quite stable and unlikely to change significantly"
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  172. # [04:10] <roc> anyone staying at Wild Palms tonight?
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  174. # [04:18] <roc> grrr
  175. # [04:19] <othermaciej> what's wrong?
  176. # [04:22] <roc> I posted to the wrong channel
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  227. # [11:07] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/xhtml-basic-11-implementation.html is funny
  228. # [11:07] <Hixie> they only tested one implementation
  229. # [11:07] <Hixie> they only had 3 tests
  230. # [11:08] <Hixie> the implementation they tested was an internal build
  231. # [11:08] <Hixie> they modified the official test to run it
  232. # [11:11] <othermaciej> lol
  233. # [11:12] <othermaciej> someone should let them know that mobile profiling is dead
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  297. # [14:29] * takkaria boggles people
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  301. # [15:21] <hsivonen> Hixie: Jeremy Keith pointed me to http://ufxtract.com/testsuite/
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  402. # [18:44] <annevk> back home, finally
  403. # [18:44] <annevk> GTA IV was in supply at the train station fortunately, so I'm all set
  404. # [18:44] <annevk> (on the other hand, the weather is quite nice around here...)
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  469. # [21:15] * virtuelv reads backlog across all of othermaciej's connects and disconnects
  470. # [21:15] <virtuelv> I almost died laughing reading that XHTML Basic test report
  471. # [21:16] <Philip`> virtuelv: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20080510 nicely hides the evidence of othermaciej's quite useless internet connection :-)
  472. # [21:17] <virtuelv> Philip`: so would my IRC client, if I just disabled that setting
  473. # [21:18] <Philip`> virtuelv: Does it apply that retroactively?
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  475. # [21:19] <virtuelv> Philip`: i can't seem to find the setting directly in it
  476. # [21:19] <virtuelv> so I hardly think so
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  479. # [21:20] <virtuelv> it doesn't, but I at least finally found the setting
  480. # [21:20] <virtuelv> nice bit is that XChat sets it on a per-channel basis
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  492. # [21:43] <jwalden> postMessage has an early adopter: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=433183
  493. # [21:43] <jwalden> and if I may say so, they are absolutely, utterly insane
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  498. # [21:48] <Philip`> jwalden: Would it still be insane if they were closely following the feature's development and ensured their code always worked reliably with it?
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  501. # [21:50] <jwalden> only slightly less so
  502. # [21:50] <jwalden> what fraction of a fraction of a percent of people would even be able to take advantage of it?
  503. # [21:51] <jwalden> once someone ships it makes sense
  504. # [21:51] <jwalden> but not before, except experimentally
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  506. # [21:54] <jwalden> actually, I take that back
  507. # [21:54] <jwalden> implementations update to the spec at different speeds
  508. # [21:54] <jwalden> so even if you do follow it, you lose
  509. # [21:55] <annevk> opera had postMessage quite early
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  512. # [21:55] <annevk> though it was exposed on document
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  518. # [22:22] <Philip`> jwalden: I assume the three million FF3 beta testers would be able to take advantage of it, which is not insignificant
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  525. # [22:24] <jwalden> they can't take that much more advantage of it than they can of whatever the supported method is in 2, and there's still the changing-implementation-rate problem
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  528. # [22:29] <othermaciej> facebook?!?!
  529. # [22:35] <jwalden> so it seems
  530. # [22:37] <BenMillard> annevk, I'm back from Sight City with 14.5 pages of notes (A5 lined paper)
  531. # [22:38] <BenMillard> a ZoomText developer seemed keen to participate in HTML5
  532. # [22:39] <BenMillard> other AT people seemed surprised that HTML5 even existed
  533. # [22:40] <BenMillard> they seemed generally positive about us wanting them to participate, though
  534. # [22:41] <BenMillard> the notes will eventually become a blog entry on Project Cerbera, somewhat like my entry for the HTMLWG F2F in Boston 2007
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  561. # Session Close: Sun May 11 00:00:00 2008

The end :)