/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-05-11 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun May 11 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  14. # [00:12] * Philip` wonders if there's some way he can make Firefox 3 not totally fail to render borders around input boxes
  15. # [00:13] <Philip`> It makes textareas unpleasantly invisible :-(
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  60. # [03:08] <Philip`> http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/spry/articles/best_practices/validating_spry.html
  61. # [03:09] <Philip`> It's great that you can write an HTML document with any arbitrary non-standard features and then have the document declare itself as valid
  62. # [03:44] <jwalden> that was the point, sadly
  63. # [03:52] <Lachy> It looks like they're using it for a valid purpose though. Being able to check that the proprietary features are used correctly is good for quality assurance. But their advice is bad because they fail to realise the difference between HTML and XHTML
  64. # [03:53] <Lachy> and in HTML5's parsing, IIRC, all browsers will behave the way IE does and output the %SPRY; ]> at the top of the page
  65. # [03:55] <Lachy> so if authors want to use it, they would be better off advising it's use only before publishing, and then replacing it with the normal DOCTYPE
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  97. # [10:39] <Hixie> annevk: yt?
  98. # [10:39] <Hixie> annevk: why does XHR not block Cookie, Cookie2, and Authorization headers?
  99. # [10:40] <Hixie> annevk: and if XHR shouldn't for same-domain, why does AC not block Authorization headers?
  100. # [10:40] <Hixie> or WWW-Authorization or whatever the header is called
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  103. # [11:23] <annevk> they should probably be blocked
  104. # [11:23] <annevk> for AC it does block them though not explicitly
  105. # [11:23] <annevk> i.e., that's mentioned in the security section only
  106. # [11:23] <Hixie> that's very bad, given that there is a list of headers elsewhere
  107. # [11:23] <Hixie> that one could easily assume to be complete
  108. # [11:24] <Hixie> generally speaking, one should assume when writing a spec that the security section will be ignored and might as well be non-normative
  109. # [11:24] <annevk> yeah, please assume that the header story is incomplete at this point
  110. # [11:24] <Hixie> fwiw
  111. # [11:24] <Hixie> please fix it asap :-)
  112. # [11:24] <Hixie> i really would like this to go to cr before the f2f
  113. # [11:24] <Hixie> i'm working hard on getting the mozilla guys to unblock you
  114. # [11:24] <annevk> ok
  115. # [11:25] <annevk> i was planning on fixing it
  116. # [11:25] <annevk> cr seems unrealistic though :(
  117. # [11:25] <Hixie> why?
  118. # [11:25] <Hixie> i thought it was basically done
  119. # [11:25] <Hixie> didn't you ask to go to CR?
  120. # [11:25] <Hixie> oh, LC?
  121. # [11:25] <Hixie> LC i guess
  122. # [11:25] <annevk> yeah
  123. # [11:26] <Hixie> whichever
  124. # [11:26] <Hixie> the one that means you're done :-)
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  126. # [11:32] <annevk> the main problem is that it's slightly unclear which headers to block and which not to block
  127. # [11:32] <annevk> and why
  128. # [11:32] <Hixie> how so?
  129. # [11:32] <annevk> i got these lists from implementors, but they didn't provide much rationale :)
  130. # [11:32] <Hixie> the list (with the addition of Cookie and WWW-Authorization) seems pretty solid to me
  131. # [11:33] <Hixie> and it's the same list as XHR1
  132. # [11:33] <annevk> yeah, but AC also has two additional whitelists, one for which headers can be exposed and one for which headers are always safe
  133. # [11:34] <annevk> (and the xhr1 list has outstanding questions as well)
  134. # [11:34] <annevk> (from reviewers)
  135. # [11:36] <Hixie> so reply to the questions :-)
  136. # [11:36] <Hixie> where are these whitelists defined?
  137. # [11:37] <Hixie> "white" isn't in the AC spec as far as i can tell
  138. # [11:37] <annevk> one is in xhr2 but jonas requested it to be moved to AC and one is in AC
  139. # [11:38] <annevk> http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/access-control/#cross-site the first whitelist is just "accept" and "accept-language"
  140. # [11:38] <annevk> the other is slightly longer, under getResponseHeader
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  142. # [11:39] <Hixie> ah
  143. # [11:39] <Hixie> having all these lists everywhere is confusing :-P
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  145. # [11:39] <annevk> agreed
  146. # [11:40] <Hixie> so wait, you can't send any custom headers at all with XXX?
  147. # [11:40] <annevk> you can
  148. # [11:40] <annevk> just requires a preflight request for GET
  149. # [11:40] <Hixie> oh this is response headers
  150. # [11:40] <Hixie> nevermind
  151. # [11:41] <Hixie> i don't care about response headers :-)
  152. # [11:41] <Hixie> do you think the Cookie headers will be added to XHR1?
  153. # [11:42] <annevk> it was requested by adam barth or his collegue (security people), but no browser does it currently i believe
  154. # [11:43] <Hixie> that didn't answer my question :-)
  155. # [11:46] <annevk> i'm not sure what to do :)
  156. # [11:49] <annevk> for completeness the blacklist from xhr should probably be put in ac as well
  157. # [11:49] <Hixie> have you asked browser vendors what they'll do?
  158. # [11:50] <Hixie> the blacklist is in AC already
  159. # [11:50] <Hixie> it's identical but adds Cookie and Cookie2 (and not WWW-Authorisation, which is imho a serious error as that header should be in both specs)
  160. # [11:50] <annevk> i guess i should try e-mailing them directly
  161. # [11:51] <annevk> they're not all that responsive on the mailing list...
  162. # [11:52] <Hixie> yes, i often have to actually speak to them in person in fact
  163. # [11:52] <Hixie> that's one reason i wanted to move to the bay area -- more browser vendors here
  164. # [11:52] <Hixie> makes it easier to do my job
  165. # [11:52] <Hixie> :-)
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  168. # [11:59] * Hixie replies to cwilson's e-mail
  169. # [12:03] <annevk> i can see how that is convenient
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  178. # [14:51] <Philip`> Mozilla needs better canvas regression tests :-(
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  185. # [16:08] <gsnedders> jgraham: was <http://flickr.com/photos/gsnedders/2375643370/in/set-72157604322177094/> the photo to which you were referring on Friday?
  186. # [16:17] <gsnedders> Philip`: Sorry for keeping you out so long and making your hands cold (re what you said on Fri night)
  187. # [16:20] <jgraham> gsnedders: No. I'm not sure which photo it was
  188. # [16:20] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p5047-ipbf1403marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  189. # [16:20] * gsnedders wonders what other photos there are online with any girl
  190. # [16:21] <Philip`> gsnedders: It was actually surprisingly warm until just before we left, so it wasn't really a problem :-)
  191. # [16:21] <Philip`> (though I am quite easily surprised by warmth here)
  192. # [16:22] <gsnedders> It was so humid on Saturday :(
  193. # [16:22] <gsnedders> Not a nice day for my grandmother's memorial service
  194. # [16:23] <Philip`> Are you heading back home now?
  195. # [16:23] <gsnedders> yeah
  196. # [16:23] <gsnedders> On a damned hot train
  197. # [16:24] * gsnedders wonders if jgraham's thought that he was the first person to write ABNF on a train was right
  198. # [16:25] <Philip`> gsnedder@nsabfw1.nsab.se looks like SIRIUS
  199. # [16:25] <gsnedders> http://stuff.gsnedders.com/http-parsing.html#anchor8 contains a fair amount of ABNF now
  200. # [16:27] <Philip`> ...though from their website it sounds like it's a unidirectional internet connection, so I don't know how they handle outgoing traffic, unless their site is just misleading
  201. # [16:29] * gsnedders can report outgoing traffic works fine
  202. # [16:29] <Philip`> Maybe at much lower bandwidth than incoming?
  203. # [16:30] <gsnedders> Bandwidth fluctuates so much that's hard to judge
  204. # [16:30] * Philip` wonders what traceroute says, since that ought to show the outgoing route (assuming it doesn't just fail to work)
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  206. # [16:32] <gsnedders> Philip`: it stops at ims.icomera.com (192.168.0.1)
  207. # [16:32] <gsnedders> (trying to reach Google)
  208. # [16:34] <Philip`> Ah
  209. # [16:34] <Philip`> I suppose that's http://www.icomera.com/solutions/overview
  210. # [16:34] <Philip`> which seems to be using every wireless technology it can gets it hands on
  211. # [16:34] <Philip`> s/gets it/get its/
  212. # [16:34] <gavin_> Philip`: did some bug surface that your tests didn't catch?
  213. # [16:35] <gavin_> your tests that landed in Mozilla CVS, I mean
  214. # [16:36] <gsnedders> Well, as I said on Friday, it can't just use sats because it would break in tunnels (as the high frequency waves wouldn't diffract into the tunnels)
  215. # [16:36] <Philip`> gavin_: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=433235
  216. # [16:37] <Philip`> gavin_: I think I hadn't written that test when I was Mozillafying them
  217. # [16:37] <gavin_> ok
  218. # [16:38] <gavin_> I nominated it for blocking1.9, vlad will look into it I'm sure
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  220. # [16:39] <jgraham> gsnedders: FWIW http://flickr.com/photos/gsnedders/2376735304/ isn't the photo I had in mind, but you do look a little... reanimated there
  221. # [16:40] <Philip`> gavin_: Okay, thanks - I don't expect it's a critical bug that anyone would really care about, but I'd like things to be bug-free anyway :-)
  222. # [16:41] <Dashiva> jgraham: An albino with a wig, maybe? :P
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  233. # [17:44] <gsnedders> The heat of this train is really surreal.
  234. # [17:45] <Philip`> Open the window and stick your head out
  235. # [17:47] <gsnedders> Windows are only in existance at the end of the coach, and sticking your head out is quite possibly fatal
  236. # [17:48] <jgraham> "The heat of this train is really surreal." - it's causing all the clocks to melt?
  237. # [17:49] <gsnedders> Not quite.
  238. # [17:49] <gsnedders> But certainly this coach is > 30°C
  239. # [18:13] * Joins: shepazu (n=schepers@123.115.128.118)
  240. # [18:18] <gsnedders> jgraham: Having tagged all the photos of me, I still don't see what you were meaning at <http://flickr.com/photos/tags/gsnedders/>
  241. # [18:28] <jgraham> gsnedders: You've totally failed to consider the possibility that I imagined the whole thing and/or my memory is faulty
  242. # [18:29] <gsnedders> jgraham: No, I haven't. I just haven't said it yet.
  243. # [18:29] <gsnedders> jgraham: With photos of me, as someone with fairly light skin anyway, it's possible :P
  244. # [18:29] <Philip`> There's also the possibility that it is a malicious plot rather than an accidental falsehood
  245. # [18:30] <gsnedders> Philip`: I hadn't considered that, yet.
  246. # [18:39] <gsnedders> "Your cache administrator is root. " (from ims.nationalexpresswifi.train)
  247. # [18:40] * Philip` discovers that he can't understand some of his canvas test cases, so he skips over them and assumes they're right
  248. # [18:41] <Philip`> (Fortunately they're undefined behaviour, so "right" is very subjective, and nobody can argue that my tests conflict with the spec)
  249. # [18:50] <gsnedders> It's raining in St Andrews (apparently)!
  250. # [18:51] <gsnedders> And all I have it a t-shirt :P
  251. # [18:51] <gsnedders> The first fine day next week is the first day of my exams. Typical.
  252. # [18:52] <Philip`> Liquid from the sky? That sounds wildly improbable
  253. # [18:52] <gsnedders> Well, look at the weather where you are Philip`
  254. # [18:53] <gsnedders> (or, rather, how it was at 12:09Z, seeming that's the last time for which I have known good information)
  255. # [18:55] <Philip`> I can't see what the weather is like - I've closed my window blinds since it was too sunny and hot
  256. # [19:00] <gsnedders> Now we're in fog, so I'm just using that
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  265. # [19:57] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.validome.org%2Fout%2Fena10&showsource=yes has confusing errors
  266. # [20:00] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: indeed. thanks
  267. # [20:02] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.validome.org%2Fout%2Fena13&showsource=yes could have more useful messages
  268. # [20:04] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: do you have a suggestion on how to handle it better?
  269. # [20:04] <hsivonen> (aside: in practice that one isn't much of a concern because UTF-16 isn't too popular for serialization)
  270. # [20:05] <Dashiva> hsivonen: You could search for a doctype in any poisition, and if you find one, report that as a possible error cause?
  271. # [20:05] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: sniff for a utf-16 BOM even if http content-type says something different
  272. # [20:05] <hsivonen> Dashiva: I don't follow.
  273. # [20:05] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: (although yeah, perhaps optimising utf-16 isn't worth it)
  274. # [20:05] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: makes sense
  275. # [20:07] <Dashiva> hsivonen: never mind, I misread the error messages
  276. # [20:08] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: http://validator.nu/?showsource=yes&doc=http://www.validome.org/out/ena2003 seems to truncate the document
  277. # [20:09] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: yeah, fatal error does
  278. # [20:09] <Philip`> hsivonen: Are there plans to change the validator output to tell people how to fix the errors, rather than just saying what the errors are and expecting them to figure out a solution themselves?
  279. # [20:11] <hsivonen> Philip`: for datatypes it already does. for other errors no tangible plans
  280. # [20:11] <hsivonen> Philip`: do you have ideas of how to correlate errors with advice in the cases where the advice would be non-obvious
  281. # [20:11] <hsivonen> ?
  282. # [20:11] <Philip`> hsivonen: Non-obvious to who?
  283. # [20:12] <hsivonen> Philip`: good question
  284. # [20:12] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: what's the error in that document?
  285. # [20:12] <Philip`> When it says "Error: Text after & did not match an entity name.", I guess most people would find it entirely non-obvious that they have to write &amp; instead
  286. # [20:13] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: looks like a bug
  287. # [20:14] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: validome seems to think that http://validator.nu/?showsource=yes&doc=http://www.validome.org/out/ena2004 should have no errors
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  290. # [20:15] <hsivonen> I really need to implement links to web-sniffer.net if only just for debugging
  291. # [20:16] * Quits: maikmerten_ (n=maikmert@L9035.l.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  292. # [20:17] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: appendix F of XML 1.0 first ed. considers UTF-16 without a BOM an error
  293. # [20:20] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: but not 4th ed?
  294. # [20:20] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: seems to be a case where the spec has changed since the parser was written
  295. # [20:20] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: ok
  296. # [20:21] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: might be good to issue a warning in that case
  297. # [20:21] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: hmm. the non-normative appendix changed
  298. # [20:22] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: the normative text still says: "Entities encoded in UTF-16 must and entities encoded in UTF-8 may begin with the Byte Order Mark"
  299. # [20:23] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: where does validome tell the expected outcome of tests?
  300. # [20:25] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: it doesn't, though it says whether the validome output is correct or not
  301. # [20:26] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: http://validator.nu/?showsource=yes&doc=http://www.validome.org/out/ena2016 and http://validator.nu/?showsource=yes&doc=http://www.validome.org/out/ena2017 are seemingly not supported (utf-32 with byte order 2143 and 3412 respectively)
  302. # [20:27] <hsivonen> I thought I had disabled UTF-32 altogether
  303. # [20:29] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: http://validator.nu/?showsource=yes&doc=http://www.validome.org/out/ena2014 works, is utf-32 byte order 1234
  304. # [20:29] * Joins: aroben (n=adamrobe@76.111.160.14)
  305. # [20:30] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: I sent email about ena2004 to Validome Staff
  306. # [20:30] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: ok
  307. # [20:30] <hsivonen> Philip`: yeah, I guess I should improve those messages.
  308. # [20:31] <hsivonen> btw, did my extensibility email make sense?
  309. # [20:34] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-98-207-134-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  310. # [20:36] <Philip`> hsivonen: For case #3, I don't see why you say XML is a good fit and then say actually it's not good and you should use XML5 instead but actually that's not good either because it's a different syntax to HTML
  311. # [20:37] <Philip`> That seems to lead to the conclusion that XML is not a good solution
  312. # [20:37] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.172)
  313. # [20:40] <hsivonen> Philip`: I say XML. the first objection is really Sam's objection. the second objection is Dave's objection to my suggested solution to Sam's objection
  314. # [20:41] <hsivonen> Philip`: I'd be OK with leaving people with XML 1.0 in that case
  315. # [20:42] <Philip`> hsivonen: The second objection seems to be unresolved
  316. # [20:43] <Philip`> I don't think Facebook cares about being able to serialise all XML 1.0 infosets as FBML, so that seems to be an irrelevant point
  317. # [20:44] <Philip`> Also I expect they could easily want "<p>Blah <p>Blah" to be parsed sensibly, since that follows their users' understanding of how to write HTML, and XML5 wouldn't do that (as far as I'm aware)
  318. # [20:45] <Philip`> so they do still want one syntax instead of two
  319. # [20:48] <hsivonen> Philip`: ok
  320. # [20:49] <hsivonen> Philip`: it seems that I ended up replying to typical XML proponent concerns instead of developing my case properly
  321. # [20:51] * Quits: aroben (n=adamrobe@unaffiliated/aroben)
  322. # [20:55] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: validome expects http://validator.nu/?showsource=yes&doc=http://www.validome.org/out/ena6009 to emit an error
  323. # [20:55] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: (likewise for <table cellspacing>)
  324. # [20:56] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@46.80-203-100.nextgentel.com) ("Ex-Chat")
  325. # [20:58] * hsivonen is puzzled by how the authors goes from "third" to "fourth" at http://www.bestkungfu.com/archive/date/2008/05/alt-and-the-flickr-defense/
  326. # [20:58] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: http://validator.nu/?showsource=yes&doc=http://www.validome.org/out/ena6017 has confusing messages
  327. # [20:59] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: yeah, the legacy schemas aren't too good :-(
  328. # [20:59] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: it says it uses the schema for html5 :)
  329. # [21:00] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: I meant ena6009
  330. # [21:01] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: but for the latter case, the legacy encoding decl datatype is bad
  331. # [21:01] * Joins: aroben (n=adamrobe@76.111.160.14)
  332. # [21:01] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: indeed, i was thinking of the message about <frameset> not being allowed
  333. # [21:02] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: why isn't it using the schema for xhtml 1.0 frameset?
  334. # [21:06] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: probably because when I wrote the autodetection code, Frameset wasn't in the presets due to evilness or something along those lines
  335. # [21:07] <hsivonen> but yeah, I should fix that
  336. # [21:07] <hsivonen> in fact, I've made notes for everything you said except UTF-16 without BOM
  337. # [21:08] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: validome also expects an empty body to be valid in xhtml 1.0, which it is if you read the xhtml 1.0 spec pedantically, but i'd argue that that's a spec bug since it's invalid html4
  338. # [21:09] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: (coords='' checking is better when validating against html5 than xhtml 1.0)
  339. # [21:12] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: http://validator.nu/?showsource=yes&doc=http://www.validome.org/out/ena7001 doesn't emit an error
  340. # [21:13] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: (might have pointed this one out before: ) validome expects errors for http://validator.nu/?showsource=yes&doc=http://www.validome.org/out/ena7003 but i don't know why
  341. # [21:14] <hsivonen> what should be the error in ena7003
  342. # [21:14] <hsivonen> ?
  343. # [21:15] <hsivonen> doh
  344. # [21:15] * hsivonen sees "but i don't know why"
  345. # [21:15] * Joins: jgraham (n=james@81-86-212-222.dsl.pipex.com)
  346. # [21:15] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: http://validator.nu/?showsource=yes&doc=http://www.validome.org/out/ena3004 shouldn't have errors per html4 :)
  347. # [21:16] * Quits: jgraham (n=james@81-86-212-222.dsl.pipex.com) (Client Quit)
  348. # [21:16] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: yeah, but this is HTML5 plus additional errors
  349. # [21:16] <hsivonen> in the parser
  350. # [21:16] <hsivonen> is the error in ena7001 that name and id aren't the same?
  351. # [21:17] <hsivonen> I disabled that check, because the Schematron was a perf issue
  352. # [21:18] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: yeah it is
  353. # [21:19] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: it seems that cdata parsing of <noframes> is incompatible with the frameset schema
  354. # [21:19] <hsivonen> nice
  355. # [21:20] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: (the parser also complains about </ in noframes)
  356. # [21:20] <hsivonen> :-(
  357. # [21:20] <hsivonen> so much brokenness on the legacy side
  358. # [21:22] <zcorpan_> html5 parsing rules yields confusing messages for http://validator.nu/?showsource=yes&doc=http://www.validome.org/out/ena3006
  359. # [21:24] * zcorpan_ notes that validome fails to detect http://www.validome.org/lang/en/get/http://www.validome.org/out/ena3008 even though the comparison page says validome gets it right
  360. # [21:27] * Quits: roc (n=roc@ip67-152-80-226.z80-152-67.customer.algx.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  361. # [21:31] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: validome expects an error for missing content-script-type http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.validome.org%2Fout%2Fena3013&schema=http%3A%2F%2Fs.validator.nu%2Fxhtml10%2Fxhtml-strict.rnc+http%3A%2F%2Fs.validator.nu%2Fxhtml10%2Fxhtml.sch+http%3A%2F%2Fc.validator.nu%2Fall-html4%2F&showsource=yes (although xhtml 1.0 doesn't require it, if you read xhtml 1.0 just as pedantically as with empty <body>)
  362. # [21:32] <zcorpan_> (and content-script-type is completely useless anyway)
  363. # [21:36] <hsivonen> I'm not gonna add content-script-type check
  364. # [21:37] <zcorpan_> makes sense
  365. # [21:42] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: "I have to change my web-dev preset links (it should be automatically - my next request for ur validator.nu) " -- http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3815150#post3815150
  366. # [21:44] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: i guess the request is that you look at the doctype to choose an appropriate xhtml 1.0 preset if the root namespace is xhtml
  367. # [21:45] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: (i know the current behavior is by design :) )
  368. # [21:48] <hsivonen> I'd rather look into whining about the doctype in a more comprehensible way
  369. # [21:49] <hsivonen> It's hard to balance this particular advocacy feature with user requests
  370. # [21:53] <hsivonen> fwiw, there's no mechanism in place for picking a present schema from XML doctype
  371. # [21:53] <hsivonen> it's not like I just disabled something
  372. # [21:53] <zcorpan_> yeah. saying "just use the preset select box" means "this validator is stupid and makes me jump through unnecessary hoops", and explaining the reasoning behind the behavior is way too much effort
  373. # [21:55] <zcorpan_> it seems that new comers don't check their own documents, instead they check documents from top sites they know have good markup
  374. # [21:55] <zcorpan_> which means xhtml documents, even if they use text/html themselves
  375. # [21:56] <hsivonen> skipped entity [dtd] needs to become something more comprehensible as the first change
  376. # [21:56] <hsivonen> like <blinquee>DTDs are legacy. Get rid of yours.</blinquee>
  377. # [21:57] <zcorpan_> lol <blinquee>
  378. # [21:57] * zcorpan_ files a bug for opera to implement <blinquee>
  379. # [21:57] <zcorpan_> not supporting it breaks this page! validator.nu
  380. # [21:58] <hsivonen> there at least was a demo implementing blinquee for Gecko years ago
  381. # [21:58] <zcorpan_> oh? didn't know
  382. # [21:59] <Philip`> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=163050 ?
  383. # [22:00] <hsivonen> Philip`: that's it
  384. # [22:09] * Joins: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  385. # [22:29] * hendry is back from Dublin
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  392. # [23:10] <Philip`> Hmph, HTML5 is insufficiently strict about butts
  393. # [23:14] <Dashiva> <body-part />
  394. # [23:14] * Quits: shepazu (n=schepers@123.115.128.118)
  395. # [23:17] <Lachy_> Philip`, wtf?
  396. # [23:17] <Philip`> Dashiva: Not that kind of butt :-(
  397. # [23:17] <Philip`> You have a dirty mind
  398. # [23:17] <Philip`> It just says "The butt value means that the end of each line is a flat edge perpendicular to the direction of the line." which is unacceptably lacking any sort of "must"
  399. # [23:19] <jgraham_> Does anyone have a a suggestion for a not-too-inaccurate not-too-technical HTML tutorial I can point my mum at?
  400. # [23:21] <gsnedders> Talking to my parents about Friday night led to the inevitable, "Were they like what you expected?", which in turn lead to whether I was what you expected. So, Philip`, jgraham_?
  401. # [23:23] * jgraham_ doesn't really know
  402. # [23:23] <gsnedders> jgraham_: So you had no expectations? :P
  403. # [23:23] <Philip`> I never have expectations
  404. # [23:23] <Philip`> Life is much more fun when everything is a surprise
  405. # [23:24] <gsnedders> did I have hair more awesome than expected? :P
  406. # [23:25] <jgraham_> "Monday make up knowing that you've gotta go to school. You tell your Mum what to expect she says it's right out of the blue"
  407. # [23:25] * Joins: roc (n=roc@ip67-152-80-245.z80-152-67.customer.algx.net)
  408. # [23:25] <gsnedders> jgraham_: see my note on http://flickr.com/photos/jgraham/2479527700/?
  409. # [23:26] <Lachy_> gsnedders, is that you in the photo?
  410. # [23:26] <gsnedders> Lachy_: yeah
  411. # [23:26] <jgraham_> gsnedders: Have now :)
  412. # [23:26] * gsnedders couldn't resist the "not us"
  413. # [23:26] <Lachy_> did you dye your hair? I thought you had blonde or light brown hair.
  414. # [23:27] <gsnedders> Nope.
  415. # [23:27] <Lachy_> really? I thought I'd seen a photo of you before. Maybe it was of someone else
  416. # [23:27] <gsnedders> If I ever dye my hair, it will be obvious.
  417. # [23:27] <gsnedders> By obvious, I meant really vibrant and unnatural (like green or blue)
  418. # [23:28] <gsnedders> Lachy_: http://flickr.com/photos/tags/gsnedders/
  419. # [23:28] <gsnedders> Lachy_: That goes back a while
  420. # [23:28] <jgraham_> gsnedders: Have you ever met David Perrett?
  421. # [23:28] <gsnedders> jgraham_: No
  422. # [23:28] <gsnedders> Name means nothing to me either
  423. # [23:29] <Philip`> http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_sp/people/resources/pics/dp.jpg ?
  424. # [23:29] <jgraham_> Ah, OK, nevermind then. He's a professor at St. Andrews that my parents know. He has dyed hair
  425. # [23:29] <jgraham_> Philip`: Yep
  426. # [23:29] * Joins: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  427. # [23:30] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: xml parser bug http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fsimon.html5.org%2Ftest%2Fxml%2Fns-malformed%2F001.xml&showsource=yes
  428. # [23:30] <gsnedders> I'd expect my father knows him.
  429. # [23:30] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  430. # [23:30] <gsnedders> But he knows far too many people at uni
  431. # [23:32] <gsnedders> Lachy_: http://www.bebo.com/PhotoAlbumBig.jsp?MemberId=4376278632&PhotoAlbumId=5579156004&PhotoId=7209454479 — that's the oldest photo of me online
  432. # [23:32] <gsnedders> (I'll get more old photos on Flickr once I work out what they are of and/or label them)
  433. # [23:33] <gsnedders> Lachy_: It used to be a bit redder and glossier, but never really light
  434. # [23:34] * Quits: jgraham (n=james@81-86-212-222.dsl.pipex.com) ("I get eaten by the worms")
  435. # [23:34] <Lachy_> yeah, I think I just remembered wrongly. I remember seeing this one before http://www.bebo.com/PhotoAlbumBig.jsp?PageNbr=1&MemberId=4376278632&PhotoAlbumId=5579156004&PhotoId=5770850872
  436. # [23:34] <gsnedders> jgraham_: http://flickr.com/photos/jgraham/2479527704/ claims to be 8:58 BST
  437. # [23:34] <gsnedders> Lachy_: That just generally looks light
  438. # [23:35] <gsnedders> jgraham_: (and that's far too early)
  439. # [23:35] <Philip`> "Taken on May 9, 2008 at 8.58pm BST"
  440. # [23:35] * Philip` points at the "pm" part
  441. # [23:35] <gsnedders> Still too early
  442. # [23:35] <Philip`> Oh
  443. # [23:35] <gsnedders> We weren't by Great St Mary's until later than that
  444. # [23:36] <gsnedders> We left at around 22:45+01, and I think we were there for around an hour
  445. # [23:36] <gsnedders> so likely it was actually 21:58+01
  446. # [23:36] <Philip`> That sounds plausible
  447. # [23:36] <gsnedders> I expect the photo on the Fen is equally wrong
  448. # [23:37] <jgraham_> I think my camera is set to GMT
  449. # [23:37] <gsnedders> jgraham_: That's my guess too
  450. # [23:37] <gsnedders> As I said, we should just set everything to GMT and be done with it :P
  451. # [23:37] <jgraham_> Though it's still not quite right and I don't know how you change the TZ
  452. # [23:37] <Philip`> Does Flickr just guess the timezone?
  453. # [23:38] <jgraham_> Conclusion: Metadata sucks.
  454. # [23:38] <gsnedders> How long were we at supper for?
  455. # [23:38] * Parts: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  456. # [23:38] <Philip`> It probably took half an hour deciding where to go and then another half an hour deciding what to eat there :-p
  457. # [23:39] * gsnedders looks at jgraham_ to know whether we're ready to order yet
  458. # [23:40] <gsnedders> I mean, he is the eldest :P
  459. # [23:42] <gsnedders> All my photos of him have come out badly, though
  460. # [23:44] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  461. # [23:44] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  462. # [23:44] <jgraham_> The EXIF format seems to have a optional timezone field by no way of storing timezones in the dates
  463. # [23:45] <gsnedders> Anyhow, I need to go sleep.
  464. # [23:45] <gsnedders> Two days of school, then study leave
  465. # [23:45] <jgraham_> goodnight
  466. # [23:45] <gsnedders> I'll deal with my photos from Cambridge… sometime.
  467. # [23:46] * gsnedders needs to `rm to-do/*`
  468. # [23:47] <Philip`> The 'exif' tool says "Date and Time (original): 2008:05:09 20:58:31" and seems to indicate a lack of any timezone information anywhere
  469. # [23:48] <Philip`> so I assume Flickr is just making up bogus values for its own required 'timezone' metadata field
  470. # [23:52] * Quits: aroben (n=adamrobe@unaffiliated/aroben)
  471. # Session Close: Mon May 12 00:00:00 2008

The end :)