/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-05-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon May 12 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  26. # [03:03] <othermaciej> Lachy_: do you know if any Opera preview builds support Selecotrs API?
  27. # [03:04] <othermaciej> (or does anyone else know?)
  28. # [03:04] <othermaciej> hi roc
  29. # [03:04] <roc> hi
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  37. # [03:39] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: I am pretty sure that the Selectors API has not been implemented in Opera yet, even in snapshot builds
  38. # [03:43] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: ok, thanks
  39. # [03:43] <othermaciej> I'm writing up what was new in WebKit 3.1 and I want to mention which things are supported in other browsers.
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  43. # [03:45] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: as far as things supported in other browsers, I believe the details in my XTech presentation are accurate (though I didn't bother to record citations)
  44. # [03:45] <MikeSmith> though I made on update to that since I did the presentation
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  46. # [03:46] <MikeSmith> I added the fact that Mozilla/FF3 now supports the AppCache API
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  48. # [03:46] <MikeSmith> which I didn't know until I read Mark Finkle's blog posting about it a few days ago
  49. # [03:50] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: I am testing as needed
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  54. # [04:02] <MikeSmith> fucking openoffice
  55. # [04:02] * MikeSmith tries hard to think of how any office suite could possibly be worse than openoffice
  56. # [04:03] <MikeSmith> great way to completely lock up my whole machine
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  58. # [04:04] <takkaria> MikeSmith: it could not exist, for one
  59. # [04:05] <MikeSmith> openoffice should show a big warning every time you start it up: Don't be stupid enough to actually try to use this application to do anything useful.
  60. # [04:05] <MikeSmith> those guys should be ashamed of themselves with that thin
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  62. # [04:06] <jwalden> I wouldn't go that far; on the other hand, I don't think it's something they can be especially proud of
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  64. # [04:08] <Philip`> OpenOffice gets something like ten billion dollars less revenue each year than Microsoft Office, so it's not surprising that it doesn't work quite so well
  65. # [04:11] <MikeSmith> I don't use MS Office at all, so I don't really care how it compares. I just need it to work without it causing me to lose data and waste time
  66. # [04:11] <MikeSmith> it just should not be advertised as being stable and ready for production use
  67. # [04:11] <MikeSmith> because it's not
  68. # [04:21] <roc> used Word much?
  69. # [04:24] <roc> because I used to write papers in Word, and I kept running into this bug where Word would replace one of my figures with a big red X while it was repaginating. Apparently that bug has/had been around for years and years.
  70. # [04:28] <MikeSmith> roc: sounds pretty annoying
  71. # [04:28] <MikeSmith> I don't use Word, ever
  72. # [04:28] <MikeSmith> not for years now at least
  73. # [04:28] <roc> OK
  74. # [04:28] <MikeSmith> but yeah, when I did I can remember running into many bugs
  75. # [04:29] <roc> I'm just saying that Word has pretty bad bugs. It seems everyone got used to them.
  76. # [04:30] <MikeSmith> yeah, and/or figures out workarounds and uses those and eventually forgets there was a bug because they just use the workarounds. that's the problem with this kind of stuff -- it forces you to alter the way you use the app, to the point where you eventually don't even realize it
  77. # [04:30] <roc> right.
  78. # [04:30] <roc> it's a big barrier to entry
  79. # [04:32] <MikeSmith> I just find that working with any kind of office app is a huge time-waster.. end up needing to spend time trying to make all kinds of formatting tweaks
  80. # [04:32] <roc> ok, well, for you there's emacs and Latex :-)
  81. # [04:33] <MikeSmith> heh
  82. # [04:34] <MikeSmith> I usually try to stick to HTML and generate PDFs from that when needed
  83. # [04:34] <MikeSmith> using Prince or something
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  85. # [04:47] <jwalden> latex is a far worse time waster than an office app -- soo many ways to tweak stuff to be more semantic, change display characteristics, etc.
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  92. # [06:19] <Hixie> wow, sam missed the point of your case #3
  93. # [06:20] <Hixie> i don't understand people's obsession with generic syntax extensibility
  94. # [06:20] <Hixie> given how small a part of the puzzle syntax is
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  97. # [06:45] <MikeSmith> I'm not sure why distributed extensibility is seen as necessarily a work item that should be taken up by the HTML WG
  98. # [06:45] <MikeSmith> instead of by the CDF WG
  99. # [06:45] <Hixie> or the XMLWG
  100. # [06:45] <Hixie> oh wait they already solved it!
  101. # [06:46] <roc> well
  102. # [06:47] <roc> gah
  103. # [06:47] <roc> I can't remember what confidentiality level my information is
  104. # [06:47] <Hixie> w3c information?
  105. # [06:48] <roc> oh
  106. # [06:48] <roc> http://www.w3.org/2007/11/CDF_rechartering/CDF-proposed
  107. # [06:48] <roc> > Given the recent activity in non-XML HTML, the CDF WG will devote attention to inclusion of other languages in HTML as well as XHTML.
  108. # [06:48] <Hixie> haha
  109. # [06:48] <Hixie> good times
  110. # [06:48] <Hixie> now they can be pointless and ineffectual in twice as many syntaxes
  111. # [06:52] <MikeSmith> Hixie: do you remember when and why the "The HTML WG is encouraged to provide a mechanism to permit independently developed vocabularies such as Internationalization Tag Set (ITS), Ruby, and RDFa to be mixed into HTML documents." language was added to the draft charter?
  112. # [06:56] <MikeSmith> also, noting "Tim Berners-Lee described this incorporation of SVG and MathML without namespaces as horrific and the issue raiser completely concurs with the him." --
  113. # [06:56] <MikeSmith> noting that, it seems like what this issue should really have been titled is "Adding support for namespaces text/html"
  114. # [06:56] <MikeSmith> because that's effectively what it amounts to
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  116. # [07:05] <Hixie> MikeSmith: because my advice was ignored and some of the architectural astronauts got their way, i imagine
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  118. # [07:07] <Hixie> i think it's telling that no web app provider, and no web browser vendor, has asked for this feature
  119. # [07:10] <MikeSmith> I think it is telling that no large content providers or normal users have either
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  122. # [07:14] <othermaciej> Hixie: what feature?
  123. # [07:14] <othermaciej> (I guess I should read the logs)
  124. # [07:14] <Hixie> namespaces
  125. # [07:14] <othermaciej> oh, CDF
  126. # [07:14] <othermaciej> oh, namespaces
  127. # [07:14] <Hixie> in text/html
  128. # [07:16] <othermaciej> CDF WG has not been very successful in engaging UA vendors
  129. # [07:16] <othermaciej> their main successes are writing down the obvious conclusions of other specs
  130. # [07:24] <Hixie> i was on the CDF WG
  131. # [07:24] <Hixie> i quit when i realised the group was clueless and doing pointless work
  132. # [07:27] <MikeSmith> I mentioned CDF just because it seems to me the group that is actually explicitly chartered to work on this very thing
  133. # [07:28] <MikeSmith> unlike the HTML WG, whose charter just says the group is "encouraged" to provide a mechanism for it
  134. # [07:29] <MikeSmith> and just as an aside, it's odd the degree to which some advocates of this have gone to avoid mentioning namespaces
  135. # [07:30] <MikeSmith> e.g., the HTML WG charter itself says "Whether this occurs through the extensibility mechanism of XML"
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  145. # [07:51] <Hixie> MikeSmith: what the htmlwg charter says doesn't much matter to me in the context of this channel :-)
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  151. # [08:30] <hsivonen> my humor/sarcasm/troll/seriousness detector is completely malfunctioning when it comes to the "move semantics into attributes" thread
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  157. # [08:50] <Hixie> hsivonen: pretty sure he's being honest
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  161. # [09:27] <annevk> hsivonen, I think in theory we can get away with two formats
  162. # [09:28] <annevk> If XML5 requires a new media type and all I'm not sure it's worth it
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  166. # [09:40] <hsivonen> annevk: yeah, I should have rethought the point before replying.
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  169. # [09:44] <Hixie> i hope someone sends a detailed reply to the e-mail justin sent me, because i don't want to do it :-P
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  175. # [09:55] <annevk> Hixie, for the response headers, do you remember how you ended up with the whitelist?
  176. # [09:56] <Hixie> which one?
  177. # [09:56] <annevk> for getResponseHeader
  178. # [09:57] <annevk> "Cache-Control, Content-Language, Content-Type, Expires, Last-Modified, or Pragma"
  179. # [09:57] <Hixie> i came up with that?
  180. # [09:58] <Hixie> i probably looked at the spec and decided which were useful and safe
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  182. # [09:58] <annevk> near the bottom of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapi/2006Jun/0012.html
  183. # [09:59] <annevk> i wonder if it should be a blacklist instead
  184. # [10:00] <annevk> just like we have for setRequestHeader()
  185. # [10:00] <Hixie> blacklists are bad
  186. # [10:00] <Hixie> as a general rule
  187. # [10:00] <Hixie> from a security standpoint
  188. # [10:01] <annevk> true
  189. # [10:01] <annevk> maybe it's not so bad to limit this to just this
  190. # [10:05] <hsivonen> I read Joe Clark writing that the WCAG specifiers struggled with machine-checkability until realizing that their problem domain needs human checking
  191. # [10:06] <hsivonen> I wonder if there are citable sources for this other than Joe's inflammatorily titled ALA article
  192. # [10:06] <annevk> didn't he also state that the group was "dominated" by automatic accessibility checker companies?
  193. # [10:07] <hsivonen> IIRC something along those lines
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  200. # [10:28] <othermaciej_> a whitelist is certainly less risky
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  207. # [11:02] * Lachy_ finds it hard to believe Justin James' proposal is serious.
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  209. # [11:03] <Hixie> curl: (6) Couldn't resolve host 'html5.validator.nu'
  210. # [11:03] <Hixie> that seems bad
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  213. # [11:06] <hsivonen> Hixie: resolves for me from two autonomous systems
  214. # [11:07] <Lachy> hsivonen, re your email subject example, good mail clients warn before sending an email without a subject because most of the time it happens, it's an accidental omission that the sender would prefer to fix
  215. # [11:08] <hsivonen> Lachy: but the reason they prefer to fix it isn't on a spec's sayso but because they need it for communicating with the people they are seeking to communicate with
  216. # [11:08] <Lachy> although, some insert something like (no subject) by default
  217. # [11:08] <Lachy> ok
  218. # [11:09] <hsivonen> experience suggests that people write bad subjects if they are new to email or if they know they are in a position of power so that recipients will want to read the email based on sender name
  219. # [11:11] <hsivonen> now the problem accessibility advocates have is that alt is for the benefit of a third party when the author seeks to communicate in images with someone who will consume the images
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  222. # [11:16] <jgraham_> FWIW, I often write bad subjects when e.g. emailing friends as the content of the mail is often just a collection of miscellany rather than one specific topic (and, honestly, I hope they would read it in any case ;) )
  223. # [11:17] <jgraham_> Mailing lists are a different audience and so are treated differently
  224. # [11:17] <hsivonen> jgraham_: I guess that falls under the case of getting read due to sender identity even if not necessarily due to a position of power
  225. # [11:17] <jgraham_> hsivonen: Yeah
  226. # [11:18] <Lachy> on high volume mailing lists, sometimes it's easier to read based on sender identity than based on the subject, especially when some people are known to write nonsense
  227. # [11:19] <zcorpan> Lachy: yeah. for instance, i never read your emails. ;)
  228. # [11:21] <othermaciej> hah
  229. # [11:21] <othermaciej> mean
  230. # [11:21] <Lachy> that's fine. I know some subscribers on some mailing lists who only read mine and a few others ;-)
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  235. # [11:27] <othermaciej__> hsivonen: I just used validator.nu for the sake of blind conformance badge value; please forgive me
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  238. # [11:29] <hsivonen> othermaciej: was the quality of your markup improved as a result?
  239. # [11:30] <othermaciej> hsivonen: not really, I just replaced spaces in some img src attributes with %20
  240. # [11:34] <hsivonen> was HyTime ever deployed anywhere?
  241. # [11:35] <othermaciej> what is HyTime?
  242. # [11:36] <annevk> spaces in <img src> should be allowed
  243. # [11:36] <annevk> either IRIs need to be cleaned up or this concept Hixie introduced but did not define should do it
  244. # [11:36] <othermaciej> HTML would have to make URI attribute values not be URIs in that case
  245. # [11:36] <othermaciej> (or IRIs)
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  247. # [11:37] <annevk> it would just be some pre-processing
  248. # [11:37] <zcorpan> annevk: might slip through authoring mistakes in the form of misquoting
  249. # [11:37] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  250. # [11:38] <zcorpan> although now that " is not allowed in attribute names (and some other such checks), perhaps misquoted attributes would be catched anyway
  251. # [11:38] <hsivonen> othermaciej: HyTime is an ISO hypertext system based on SGML
  252. # [11:40] <othermaciej> literal space will work interoperably in attribute values of course, but not in many other URI contexts (if only because the space breaks attempts to autodetect them in text)
  253. # [11:40] <othermaciej> so I don't feel too bad about that requirement
  254. # [11:40] <othermaciej> on the other hand, I think it made my html less readable to use %20
  255. # [11:40] <othermaciej> and these are relative URIs in any case
  256. # [11:42] <Hixie> the biggest problem with spaces in href=""s that i've seen is that they risk getting wordwrapped
  257. # [11:42] <Hixie> and then who knows what'll happen
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  260. # [11:47] <hsivonen> http://xml.coverpages.org/hytimeKimber9701.html
  261. # [11:47] <hsivonen> look for the paragraph starting with 'Technicaly, HyTime is an "enabling architecture".'
  262. # [11:49] <Hixie> HyTime is also a market failure.
  263. # [11:49] <Hixie> i wonder if there's a correlation
  264. # [11:49] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-4d1276fc843d3494)
  265. # [11:50] <othermaciej> "it provides a set of 'meta-element types' that serve as templates or supertypes from which you derive your own element types with their own element type names and specialized attributes"
  266. # [11:50] <othermaciej> sounds sweet, sign me up
  267. # [11:51] <othermaciej> but it sounds like I should bring my space helmet
  268. # [11:53] <hsivonen> Hixie: do you have any reason why I shouldn't offer an option to get warnings whenever tags are inferred?
  269. # [11:54] <Hixie> none other than the usual "options are bad ui" thing
  270. # [11:54] <Hixie> if people want to be told when they use that syntax feature, then they should be able to obtain that information
  271. # [11:54] <hsivonen> yeah. I'm told I don't need to put it in the HTML5 UI as long as there's a magic bookmarkable URI parameter
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  273. # [11:56] <hsivonen> the reasoning is that not having this feature is claimed to be an important evangelism blocker when advocating HTML5 to the XHTML-as-text/html crowd
  274. # [11:57] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I threw something at it with some (unintentional) errors and it seems to me the error recovery is not yet very good
  275. # [11:57] <hsivonen> othermaciej: 'it' being Validator.nu?
  276. # [11:57] <othermaciej> I forgot the close quote on some attributes
  277. # [11:57] <othermaciej> hsivonen: yeah
  278. # [11:58] <hsivonen> othermaciej: do you mean the recovery was bad or that the messages were bad?
  279. # [11:58] <hsivonen> (the recovery is per spec)
  280. # [11:59] <othermaciej> I mean that it gave lots of error messages for what was actually one mistake, and they created so much noise I could not spot my second mistake until I fixed the first
  281. # [11:59] <othermaciej> this is a UI complaint, not a standards compliance complaint
  282. # [11:59] <hsivonen> ok.
  283. # [12:00] <hsivonen> there seem to be two issues: 1) what the tokenizer spec says are errors (normative) and 2) how I phrase the errors (not normative; now phrased according to tokenization situation--not according to the probable user intent)
  284. # [12:00] <hsivonen> the old behavior with < breaking out of a tag and starting a new one was more intuitive
  285. # [12:02] <hsivonen> I wonder if it were worthwhile to stop reporting errors until there has been one transition to the data state
  286. # [12:03] <hsivonen> that would seem bad for general purpose perf and for Java byte code size, though...
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  289. # [12:04] <Hixie> the spec only requires that you report one error if there is one and none if there are none, right?
  290. # [12:05] <annevk> spaces in URIs are problematic for ping= I guess
  291. # [12:05] <hsivonen> Hixie: yeah. but on the other hand, when I opt to stop reporting errors, people complain that the parser didn't keep on trucking
  292. # [12:05] <Hixie> hsivonen: well i just mean that you don't have to report exactly the right errors, if there are more useful ones you can report
  293. # [12:05] <othermaciej> does the spec require that if a conformance checker recovers from errors, it must report the same errors that the parsing algorithm would flag?
  294. # [12:06] <othermaciej> it seems to me that for usability's sake it's probably not good for the exact set of errors reported to be a normative requirement
  295. # [12:06] <hsivonen> I'm not sure, actually. It does require recovery to be per spec
  296. # [12:06] <othermaciej> since quality of error messages should be a potential point of competition
  297. # [12:07] <Hixie> Conformance checkers must report at least one parse error condition to the user if one or more parse error conditions exist in the document and must not report parse error conditions if none exist in the document. Conformance checkers may report more than one parse error condition if more than one parse error conditions exist in the document. Conformance checkers are not required to recover from parse errors.
  298. # [12:08] <Hixie> i can change the last sentence to allow arbitrary error recovery if you like
  299. # [12:08] <othermaciej> though in this particular case highlighting the likely actual authoring error and having the detailed error messages available in a distinguished form (indented, smaller text, disclosure triangle, something like that) would probably have been good enough
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  301. # [12:09] * othermaciej decides to run random pages on webkit.org through validator.nu
  302. # [12:10] <othermaciej> hmm the blog looks better than I thought
  303. # [12:10] <othermaciej> wrong doctype and it doesn't like the feed: URIs, and hyatt apparently would rather type <tt> than <code>
  304. # [12:12] <hsivonen> othermaciej: hyatt should use his editorship to make <tt> conforming :-)
  305. # [12:12] <Lachy> is <tt> commonly used?
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  308. # [12:13] <Hixie> bed time
  309. # [12:13] <Hixie> nn
  310. # [12:13] <hsivonen> nn
  311. # [12:19] <Philip`> Lachy: http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/survey/2007-07-17/analyse.cgi/tag/tt
  312. # [12:19] <Philip`> vs http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/survey/2007-07-17/analyse.cgi/tag/code
  313. # [12:19] <Philip`> vs http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/survey/2007-07-17/analyse.cgi/tag/samp etc
  314. # [12:19] <hsivonen> ouch. I may have missed conformance checking-relevant spec updates between 1478 and 1495
  315. # [12:20] <Philip`> (i.e. <tt> is on 30 pages out of 7739)
  316. # [12:20] <Philip`> (and you can decide on your own definition of "common" and whether <tt> counts)
  317. # [12:20] <Lachy> that's on more than <code>
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  319. # [12:21] <hsivonen> yay. no changes annotated [c] in that range
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  322. # [12:28] <othermaciej> one of those uses of <tt> is to create an invisible line spacer
  323. # [12:28] <othermaciej> on http://www.moytura.com/westport.htm
  324. # [12:28] <othermaciej> I should not be surprised I guess yet somehow I am
  325. # [12:29] <othermaciej> also a surprising number of these pages are in Polish
  326. # [12:30] <othermaciej> webkit.org homepage, the only error as html5 is the doctype
  327. # [12:31] <Philip`> http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwebkit.org%2F&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&group=0
  328. # [12:31] <othermaciej> Philip`: I'm forcing HTML5 mode
  329. # [12:31] <othermaciej> oh hmm
  330. # [12:31] <Philip`> Shouldn't duplicate IDs be an HTML5 error too?
  331. # [12:31] <othermaciej> yes
  332. # [12:31] <hsivonen> &group=0 ?
  333. # [12:32] <Philip`> hsivonen: That's just what it adds when I click the Check button
  334. # [12:32] <othermaciej> and it is definitely a duplicate id
  335. # [12:32] <othermaciej> hsivonen: does validator.nu have a bug tracker?
  336. # [12:33] <othermaciej> ok, found the bugzilla
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  339. # [12:42] <hsivonen> Philip`: that's weird
  340. # [12:42] <hsivonen> Philip`: oh. sorry. it was w3.org
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  347. # [13:16] <othermaciej> hsivonen: http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=184
  348. # [13:18] <Philip`> othermaciej: http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=149
  349. # [13:19] <othermaciej> darn, I thought I might have the first bug not filed by hsivonen
  350. # [13:19] <othermaciej> (it looks like there are some others anyway, so I am not too sad that it's a dupe)
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  367. # [14:14] <Lachy> wow, Node.lookupNamespaceURI has got some major interoperability issues :-(
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  373. # [15:10] <zcorpan> Hixie: wrt setting reflecting booleans, it appears that IE and Opera have switched behavior with each other since last time I tested :-)
  374. # [15:10] <zcorpan> Hixie: but safari and firefox still use the empty string
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  377. # [15:49] <hsivonen> what's the difference between "cognitively impaired [user]" and "user with intellectual disabilities"?
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  390. # [16:19] <BenMillard> hsivonen, cognitive impairments can include memory loss, emotional difficulties, mental health problems, the whole buffet of brain-related issues
  391. # [16:20] <BenMillard> hsivonen, intellectual disabilities isn't a term I've heard before but I imagine it's more specific...literacy and communication perhaps
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  440. # [19:32] <annevk> alt madness continues :(
  441. # [19:32] <Philip`> The only way to resolve it is with a duel
  442. # [19:38] <othermaciej> I shouldn't have jumped into it
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  446. # [19:55] <webben> re: the current alt discussion, it seems to me it's important to ascertain and distinguish between what UA+AT currently do (for backwards compatibility purposes) and what UA+AT should do (for ideal conformance).
  447. # [19:56] <webben> othermaciej and Faulkner are, AFAICT, both right. repetition is unwanted but differing navigational strategies may require a certain level of repetition in existing UA+AT.
  448. # [19:57] <webben> othermaciej: You mention how skipping the image might be useful for verbal output; I'm not sure that's necessarily the case (what about when you need to discover the image?), but in any case it seems to be something verbal UA+AT could implement using the proposed markup.
  449. # [19:58] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-03a092d41410f075) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  450. # [19:58] <webben> e.g. skip the alt given when reading straight through the page.
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  452. # [20:02] <webben> It's rather like the problem with link context, which is crucial when not navigating the page linearly, but potentially distracting when you do: http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2008-March/014258.html
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  457. # [20:09] <othermaciej> webben: I don't see how the proposed markup would let you know that you can skip the alt
  458. # [20:10] <othermaciej> webben: I'm also not sure why navigating to the image has to be even available as an option, to a user consuming purely text
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  460. # [20:10] <webben> othermaciej: If the aria-described-by or longdesc or whatever is defined as pointing to a full text alternative, and that alternative is in the current document, then the UA knows its reading the image alternative.
  461. # [20:10] <othermaciej> for a visually impaired but not blind user, or a cognitively disabled user, supplemental info would better expressed as title=""
  462. # [20:11] <webben> othermaciej: Navigating to images is important because images are content, and the user may wish to save the image/share it with others/edit it etc etc etc
  463. # [20:11] <othermaciej> webben: surely the same could be said for decorative images, and in that case alt="" is considered acceptable and will skip the image in many configurations
  464. # [20:11] <webben> othermaciej: decorative images aren't content; alt="" is fine.
  465. # [20:12] <webben> (yes, conceivably users might want access to decorative images, or CSS background-images, in both cases viewing or inspecting the source seems appropriate.)
  466. # [20:12] <othermaciej> visual UAs don't prevent users from saving decorative images, sharing them with others, or editing them (once saved)
  467. # [20:12] <roc_> it's kind of annoying when you're implementing a spec that has been implemented at least three times already and there are still basic ambiguities in the spec
  468. # [20:13] * roc_ is now known as roc
  469. # [20:13] <webben> neither do non-visual UAs.
  470. # [20:13] <webben> the point is what's most useful to be alerted to.
  471. # [20:13] <gsnedders> othermaciej: OK, I _will_ use yacc (actually, I'll use PLY)
  472. # [20:13] <othermaciej> then I don't see why alt="" is ok for a decorative image but not for a non-decorative but redundant-with-the-text image
  473. # [20:14] <othermaciej> roc: what spec?
  474. # [20:14] <webben> because content is much more fundamental to general human communication and sharing than decorative images?
  475. # [20:14] <othermaciej> saving an image is not the common operation; you don't normally need to be alerted to it
  476. # [20:15] <othermaciej> unless for some reason screen reader users are much more likely to save images, which I grant is not impossible (don't really know)
  477. # [20:15] <webben> saving an image is only one of the scenarios I mentioned, but like I said: "You mention how skipping the image might be useful for verbal output; I'm not sure that's necessarily the case (what about when you need to discover the image?), but in any case it seems to be something verbal UA+AT could implement using the proposed markup."
  478. # [20:15] <roc> SVG flters, this time
  479. # [20:16] <othermaciej> lots of SVG has basic ambiguities in the spec
  480. # [20:16] <othermaciej> hardly specific to filters
  481. # [20:16] <roc> well yeah
  482. # [20:16] <webben> what's actually best for default behavior is perhaps best left to user testing by the UA+AT vendors and developers.
  483. # [20:16] <roc> I didn't say I was surprised :-)
  484. # [20:17] <roc> but you'd think they would have discovered interop problems and fixed the spec
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  486. # [20:17] <roc> maybe there's a graphics programmer mindset that makes them all take the same decisions
  487. # [20:18] <othermaciej> webben: so you don't subscribe to the "behavior of current AT will never change, therefore the spec must cater to it" school of thought?
  488. # [20:19] <webben> othermaciej: The spec needs to cater to the behavior of current AT as a matter of backwards compatibility (it does this generally for browsers, and it's more important for AT because it does more harm to individuals who are locked into expensive AT if it doesn't); I think it also needs to look forward to the improvement of AT.
  489. # [20:19] <webben> "cater" here does not necessarily mean "optimise for"
  490. # [20:19] <Philip`> roc: There's quite a lot of bits in the canvas spec too, where the spec says pretty much nothing but everyone implements it the same way anyway
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  492. # [20:20] <Philip`> (e.g. how you draw a stroked line)
  493. # [20:20] <roc> unfortunately if you try to specify that too much you will kill performance
  494. # [20:20] <Philip`> and I don't know if it's worth adding the necessary large amounts of complexity to the spec to describe precisely how to implement these things
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  497. # [20:22] <othermaciej> webben: to me, speaking duplicate content seems like a pretty bad bug (perhaps as bad as occasionally reading gibberish filenames)
  498. # [20:22] <othermaciej> webben: and it is a bug that would occur in all existing and near-term foreseeable UA+AT combinations
  499. # [20:22] <webben> what's "near-term" here?
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  501. # [20:23] <othermaciej> further, if this changes in some assistive technologies over time, this makes life harder for designers who actually want to create a good experience for e.g. screen reader users
  502. # [20:24] <othermaciej> there are probably few who care to the point of going beyond a simple checklist, and probably even fewer who test with one or more screen readers
  503. # [20:24] <othermaciej> so maybe that's not so important
  504. # [20:24] <webben> /if/ it's a bug, I don't see why the implementation couldn't change to skip alt in certain situations, well, tomorrow e.g. with a commit to Orca or NVDA.
  505. # [20:26] <othermaciej> I'd love to work on a project that could give consistent one-day turnaround even just for simple bugs
  506. # [20:26] <webben> You've never seen a bug fixed in one day on WebKit?
  507. # [20:27] <othermaciej> I've seen plenty fixed in one day, a few one day after being reported, a tiny handful where that happend and the fix did not cause a regression, and 0 where the fix was shipped to end users that day
  508. # [20:28] <jwalden> bugs get fixed in one day, but only a very small portion of them
  509. # [20:28] <webben> a commit to Orca/NVDA != "fix was shipped to end users"
  510. # [20:28] <othermaciej> that's why I said "consistent one-day turnaround"
  511. # [20:28] <webben> I mean a source commit.
  512. # [20:28] <othermaciej> sure, some things could get fixed in one day, but very few things will and it is hard to control which
  513. # [20:28] <Lachy> othermaciej, would a DOMStringMap, which is partially defined in HTML5, work for the NSResolver?
  514. # [20:29] <jwalden> it'd be much easier if you could forego reviews, but that has its own problems :-)
  515. # [20:29] <Lachy> if there were a way for authors to create one.
  516. # [20:30] <othermaciej> Lachy: DOMStringMap looks like a spec for an implementation object with magical name lookup rules, not for a convenient author-provided static data map
  517. # [20:30] <Lachy> yeah, I guess.
  518. # [20:31] <othermaciej> for webkit we mandate reviews, passing all the tests, adding a regression test for any behavior change, and performance testing, but some things still manage to get fixed in a day
  519. # [20:31] <othermaciej> not many though!
  520. # [20:31] <Philip`> Is {'html':'http://...', 'svg':'http://...'} not an adequate convenient author-provided static data map?
  521. # [20:31] <othermaciej> and accessibility is an area that is so far lacking in regression testing in WebKit so scarier to work on
  522. # [20:32] <othermaciej> Philip`: Bjoern objected to it on the basis of (a) setters reintroducing possibility of random code execution (I say ignore them) (b) not scaling to non-JS languages (I don't care) and (c) not having an obvious way to represent the default namespace
  523. # [20:33] <othermaciej> I don't think you can name a JS property the empty string, but you could probably come up with a name that is not a valid namespace prefix and reasonably conveys defaultness
  524. # [20:33] <othermaciej> (perhaps '_' would do)
  525. # [20:34] <Philip`> Firefox seems happy enough with {'':1}
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  527. # [20:35] <Lachy> Philip`, that can't work because of getters { get svg() { doSomething(); return "..." };
  528. # [20:35] <Philip`> Lachy: Is it not possible to just define it to ignore getters?
  529. # [20:36] <Philip`> If the property has a getter and is not just a raw value, then throw an exception or something, except express that in crazy ECMAScript notation with lots of double-square-brackets
  530. # [20:37] <Philip`> s/If/Or if/
  531. # [20:38] <othermaciej> ah, right, I meant getters, not setters
  532. # [20:38] <Lachy> the other solution that was suggested on public-webapi was to use a string like this "xht=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml svg=http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"
  533. # [20:38] <othermaciej> ES3 doesn't have getters per spec, ES4 may or may not have an in-language way to bypass them, the implementation can bypass in any case if it wants to
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  535. # [20:40] <Lachy> the string is syntacally nicer than all the JS Object stuff, and it also doesn't suffer from any compatibility issues in non-ECMAScript langauges
  536. # [20:40] <Philip`> othermaciej: If there is no way for users to to bypass them, could implementations optimise the objects by not storing the hidden-by-getter properties at all?
  537. # [20:40] * Parts: svl (n=me@190.42.77.77)
  538. # [20:40] <Philip`> (which would break if there were special cases in the DOM that did require them to be bypassed)
  539. # [20:40] <Lachy> but I still need to check with Opera developer internally to see what they think of each solution
  540. # [20:40] <othermaciej> Philip`: what hidden-by-getter properties?
  541. # [20:41] <othermaciej> a property is either a regular property or it is programmatic
  542. # [20:41] <othermaciej> can't be both
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  544. # [20:41] <Philip`> othermaciej: Ah, okay
  545. # [20:42] <Philip`> othermaciej: When you say "bypass", does that mean just detecting whether the property is regular or programmatic, as opposed to bypassing the getter in order to get at a regular property behind it?
  546. # [20:42] <othermaciej> Philip`: right, I mean getter properties are ignored for purposes of building the prefix mapping table
  547. # [20:43] <othermaciej> I think the string might be better though
  548. # [20:43] <othermaciej> certainly simplifies things specwise
  549. # [20:43] <othermaciej> though having to parse it will add maybe a tiny bit of overhead
  550. # [20:50] <andersca> Hixie: is there a suggested file extension for cache manifests
  551. # [20:51] * jwalden doesn't see anything particularly onerous about a function, fw (little) iw
  552. # [20:51] <jwalden> but then again, I wouldn't touch namespaces if I could help it anyway, so I'm not the target audience
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  555. # [20:55] <annevk> grmbl
  556. # [20:55] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008May/0228.html is pretty useless
  557. # [20:55] <annevk> he completely quotes Dave Singer out of context and then goes on with his alt= should be mandatory meme
  558. # [20:56] <annevk> they should really stop with their rhetoric and come with arguments...
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  561. # [21:06] <jgraham_> Lachy: FWIW I think the string NSResolver is uglier than the object
  562. # [21:08] <Lachy> why?
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  565. # [21:28] <andersca> Hixie?
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  572. # [22:21] <Hixie> andersca: .manifest, i guess
  573. # [22:21] <andersca> Hixie: OK!
  574. # [22:22] <andersca> Hixie: from reading section 4.8, point 7 it seems that a resource can be stored in one or more application caches even if the browsing context is not associated with a cache
  575. # [22:23] <Dashiva> "We need to nail @alt to the mast!" ... "I keep an open mind"
  576. # [22:23] <Dashiva> @annevk and the rest of the people taking time to discuss it, you have my sympathy :)
  577. # [22:25] <gsnedders> jgraham_, Philip`: Do either of you know how common it is to change from Comp.Sci. to Nat.Sci. at the end of first year, especially among those who only did one science at a-level/equiv.?
  578. # [22:27] <Hixie> andersca: yeah, if a.html and b.html both reference different manifests that put c.html into their cache, then when you navigate to c.html, it'll be in two caches. But if in those caches it doesn't have a manifest="" attribute, then the document will first be loaded from one of those caches, and then the UA will realise it doesn't have a matching manifest, and will reload it from the network.
  579. # [22:29] <jgraham_> Lachy: Because the string isn't such a natural representation of the datatype which is basically a set of (key, value) pairs. Working with a string in code is harder than working with a structure that maps naturally onto the actual data. Also namespace URIs tend to be long and breaking a string over multiple lines is harder than doing the same with an object or other data structure — it's less likely that an IDE will have good indentatio
  580. # [22:29] <jgraham_> n for example.
  581. # [22:29] <andersca> Hixie: but also if the URL of c.html matches an opportunistically cached namespace
  582. # [22:29] <andersca> Hixie: right?
  583. # [22:29] <jgraham_> gsnedders: Not off the top of my head
  584. # [22:30] <gsnedders> jgraham_: looking on cam.ac.uk, it lists Maths & Phys. and Comp.Sci. as the two other routes into Nat.Sci. second year, but I can see no more
  585. # [22:30] <Philip`> gsnedders: Which version of CS? I believe the 25% option is for people who expect to continue into NatSci after the first year, while the 50% one is for people who expect to stay with CS, and I think they're adding the 75% soon for crazy people who really like CS
  586. # [22:31] <jgraham_> Basically if you want to do Physics + Maths Nat. Sci. in IB (second year) and you did reasonably well in 1A Physics/Maths no one will care about anything else
  587. # [22:31] <gsnedders> Philip`: I see only one on the website :P
  588. # [22:31] <Hixie> andersca: if you're offline, and you try to load a page as a fallback page for a top-level browsing context and it doesn't have a manifest="" matching the cache's manifest, then the load will be canceled and the browsing context will instead show an inline error message
  589. # [22:31] <gsnedders> Philip`: 50% it seems to be
  590. # [22:31] <Philip`> jgraham_: Is it possible to do entirely physics in IB?
  591. # [22:32] <jgraham_> gsnedders: For you 50% Comp. Sci. + Maths B + Physics seems right for the first year
  592. # [22:32] <jgraham_> (I think Maths B is the harder one)
  593. # [22:32] <Hixie> andersca: it is impossible for a page load to complete (or even get past the <html> implied start tag) in a top-level browsing context without there being an <html> start tag with a manifest="" pointing to the manifest of the cache from which it was loaded
  594. # [22:32] <jgraham_> Philip`: Yeah, you're basically expected to
  595. # [22:32] <gsnedders> Then I have the fun of choosing a college to apply to :P
  596. # [22:32] <andersca> Hixie: if I'm online, and load a page from the network and its url matches an opportunistic namespace
  597. # [22:33] <andersca> Hixie: then that page needs to be stored regardless of whether the browsing context is associated with a cache or not
  598. # [22:33] <jgraham_> (I think technically the courses are Physics and Advanced Physics but few people do one and not the other)
  599. # [22:33] <jgraham_> (at least people who carry on with Physics in Pt II, and few people do IB physics but not Pt II physics)
  600. # [22:34] <gsnedders> (As I said on Friday, I don't meet the entrance requirements for Nat.Sci., so I can't apply for it (well, I can, it's just pointless))
  601. # [22:34] <Philip`> gsnedders: The http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/intro/ site? That seems unclearer when I last looked, but it's mostly talking about what I'd call 50% and the "Alternative first year option" is 25%
  602. # [22:34] <jgraham_> gsnedders: The important thing about applying to a college is to remember that the criteria that you would apply in retrospect have little correlation with the information that is avaliable before you apply
  603. # [22:35] <gsnedders> Philip`: http://www.cam.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/courses/compsci/index.html
  604. # [22:35] <gsnedders> jgraham_: I'm aware. I should probably try and get criteria off my sister (who went to Selwyn)
  605. # [22:35] <gsnedders> Her reasons were silly :P
  606. # [22:36] <Hixie> andersca: hm yeah, step 7 of the navigate steps is broken
  607. # [22:36] <gsnedders> Philip`: That alternate option seems to be doing Nat.Sci. as a main subject, so applying for it, I think
  608. # [22:36] <jgraham_> The hard and fast rule is do not, under any circumstances, go with the "no preference" option
  609. # [22:36] <andersca> Hixie: for performance reasons it seems bad to do this :)
  610. # [22:36] <gsnedders> jgraham_: I've heard that time and time again, and quite frankly, I don't want to :)
  611. # [22:36] <Philip`> My criteria involved excluding colleges that were too far away, and excluding ones with names that sounded silly, etc, and then picking semi-arbitrarily from those that were left
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  613. # [22:36] <Hixie> andersca: it's also broken in that if you try to fetch something that's oppcached and you get a 404, then you'll use the fallback, but if the fallback doesn't have a correct manifest="", it'll loop as it tries to use the network again
  614. # [22:37] <andersca> Hixie: good point
  615. # [22:37] <gsnedders> My sister wanted somewhere which could accommodate her for her entire degree, and taught a fair amount of it on site.
  616. # [22:37] <jgraham_> Philip`: That sounds quite like my criteria. Although I was also heavilly influenced by the fact that Jesus isn't on the tourist trail and had a sculpture exhibition on when I went to look around
  617. # [22:37] * om_afk is now known as othermaciej
  618. # [22:37] <Hixie> andersca: can you send mail?
  619. # [22:37] <gsnedders> Philip`: Would you, in retrospective, say King's was good?
  620. # [22:37] <andersca> Hixie: yes
  621. # [22:37] <Hixie> andersca: thanks
  622. # [22:38] <Hixie> andersca: woul it be helpful to you if i went and did appcache stuff next?
  623. # [22:38] <jgraham_> gsnedders: I think everywhere has accommodation for the whole degree now
  624. # [22:38] <Philip`> King's has the (seemingly quite rare) advantage of not having any stupid network restrictions, though I don't know if they'll change in the future
  625. # [22:38] <andersca> Hixie: I thought you already did :)
  626. # [22:38] <jgraham_> Having a tutor for you subject is a good idea
  627. # [22:38] <gsnedders> jgraham_: Well, my sister applied in '91 (before I was born)
  628. # [22:38] <Hixie> andersca: well you're about to send new feedback :-)
  629. # [22:38] <andersca> Hixie: ah :)
  630. # [22:38] <andersca> Hixie: I do have some feedback regarding dynamic entries too
  631. # [22:39] <gsnedders> Philip`: what sort of restrictions?
  632. # [22:39] <Hixie> there's apparently 19 e-mails in my appcache pile
  633. # [22:39] <gsnedders> jgraham_: you know anywhere where you could find that, apart from just nagging each college?
  634. # [22:39] <Hixie> mostly stuff from public-html
  635. # [22:39] <Hixie> so probably not useful
  636. # [22:39] <Hixie> for you
  637. # [22:40] <Philip`> gsnedders: I've been quite happy at King's so far, and I've never wished I was elsewhere :-)
  638. # [22:40] <andersca> Hixie: I think it's a bit weird that dynamic entries have some kind of order
  639. # [22:40] <jgraham_> gsnedders: It used to say in the prospectus
  640. # [22:40] <Hixie> andersca: well they need some sort of order to be enumerable, no?
  641. # [22:40] <Hixie> andersca: i don't have a strong opinion on that at all
  642. # [22:40] <Hixie> andersca: if you have a better idea, let me know, i'll use it
  643. # [22:40] <Hixie> andersca: put a note in the e-mail(s) you send reminding me that you'd like prompt responses and i'll reply when you send them
  644. # [22:41] <andersca> Hixie: will do!
  645. # [22:41] <Hixie> thanks
  646. # [22:41] <Hixie> bbiab
  647. # [22:41] <gsnedders> Another requirement for my sister was that she wouldn't be with people who were ridiculously rich who spent £10k on drink every weekend (as she rarely drank, and never to the extremes of many, due to not having the money)
  648. # [22:41] <Philip`> gsnedders: Some colleges have non-public IPs, proxies, firewalls, small bandwidth limitations, etc
  649. # [22:41] <jgraham_> gsnedders: Yeah it says in the prospectus
  650. # [22:41] <gsnedders> Philip`: Ah
  651. # [22:41] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  652. # [22:41] <jgraham_> "Director of studies"
  653. # [22:42] <jgraham_> not every college has them for evey subject
  654. # [22:42] <jgraham_> gsnedders: All the stuff about people from a certain class background being concentrated in a subset of colleges is mostly a myth
  655. # [22:42] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@203.96.70.2)
  656. # [22:42] * Joins: roc (n=roc@guest-226.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  657. # [22:43] <jgraham_> That is a bad reason for choosing a college
  658. # [22:43] * gsnedders is quite tempted to apply for King's, but has no idea how well he'd manage to get in
  659. # [22:43] <Philip`> gsnedders: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/teaching/dos-list/ lists the DoSes of each college, though you can't read that page
  660. # [22:44] <gsnedders> Philip`: each of http://www.cam.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/colleges/ lists the DoSes
  661. # [22:44] <jgraham_> gsnedders: By going to the interview I expect
  662. # [22:44] <gsnedders> jgraham_: You really think I'd get in fine? :P
  663. # [22:45] <jgraham_> (seriously, I don't know what your grades are like but you have a lot of interest in your subject so you would stand a good chance)
  664. # [22:45] <gsnedders> jgraham_: (my grades are varied)
  665. # [22:45] <jgraham_> (disclaimer: I Am Not An Admission Officer)
  666. # [22:45] <gsnedders> (We will find out how I've done this year in August)
  667. # [22:45] <jgraham_> s/Admission/Admissions/
  668. # [22:46] <gsnedders> My parents know the admissions officer of Selwyn (totally unrelated to the fact my sister went there, too)
  669. # [22:47] * gsnedders starts to enter an ISO-8601 date into the request form for a paper copy of the prospectus, then realises it says "dd/mm/yy"
  670. # [22:47] <Philip`> Apparently there were 223 CS applications in 2007, and 71 acceptances
  671. # [22:47] * Philip` thought it used to be more like 5:1
  672. # [22:48] <gsnedders> See, that's what makes me worried. :P
  673. # [22:48] <Philip`> (200 male, 23 female)
  674. # [22:49] <Philip`> (which is more extreme than any other course)
  675. # [22:49] <jgraham_> (oh and if we're comparing netowrk access Jesus was very proud of the fact that it was the first college to put the internal network behind NAT but other than that has been very good to me, especially as a graduate where they have left me alone for 4 years without trying to charge me for any unwanted meals)
  676. # [22:50] <gsnedders> Philip`: Well, maybe that'll stop me tagging blog posts with lust :P
  677. # [22:50] <jgraham_> I guess the above makes more sense with s/network access/colleges/
  678. # [22:51] <Philip`> http://computing-info.ucam.org/Colleges might be either up-to-date or of highly questionable reliability
  679. # [22:51] <jgraham_> gsnedders: If that's your aim you should apply to be a medic, but definitely not a vet
  680. # [22:51] <gsnedders> Really, it seems to be between Edinburgh or Cambridge (even though I will likely apply to at least York as well)
  681. # [22:51] <gsnedders> jgraham_: Why? What are they like?
  682. # [22:52] <jgraham_> gsnedders: According to a Varsity (student newspaper) survey I heard about second hand, Medics get the most sex, Vets the least
  683. # [22:52] <gsnedders> jgraham_: ah
  684. # [22:53] <gsnedders> jgraham_: So they test the theories they learn about spread of STDs, whereas vets are of the wrong species to do so?
  685. # [22:54] <Philip`> I think I saw a piece in another student newspaper from the person who happened to be hanging around when Varsity needed to fill some space and they dragged him into reporting that rather unreliable survey and he/she was surprised when it got attention in the national press
  686. # [22:54] <Philip`> s/him/him\/her/ (since I can't remember at all)
  687. # [22:55] <gsnedders> Why is it that all .ac.uk addresses are fussy about (www.)?
  688. # [22:55] <gsnedders> or rather, (www\.)?
  689. # [22:56] <jgraham_> gsnedders: Because they are evil
  690. # [22:56] <Philip`> Probably because they're old networks and older network administrators who resist any change, and in the old days they had to use different domain names to separate out HTTP and FTP and Telnet and Gopher and whatever
  691. # [22:57] <jgraham_> Philip`: I think it's university policy. At least I remember reading that once, although it may have changed
  692. # [22:57] * Joins: qwert666_ (n=qwert666@acaz215.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)
  693. # [22:57] * gsnedders stops ordering paper prospectuses (mainly for the sake of my mother) having got to three
  694. # [22:58] <gsnedders> jgraham_: Where is the Jesus accommodation? Within the college site?
  695. # [22:58] <jgraham_> Philip`: I'm not surprised if the survey was wrong
  696. # [22:59] <jgraham_> gsnedders: Mostly, yes. Second years are mostly in college-owned houses on Jesus Lane / Malcolm street (right next to college) which is actually better than being in college
  697. # [22:59] <Philip`> The WWW might just be a passing fad, so why should they dedicate a high-level domain like "cam.ac.uk" to it?
  698. # [22:59] <jgraham_> I get the impression that Jesus has one of the best accommodation stories in the whole of Cambridge
  699. # [23:00] <jgraham_> (also, apparently theology was bottom)
  700. # [23:00] * gsnedders re-reads the website, and realises he does actually meet the nat.sci. entrance requirements
  701. # [23:01] <gsnedders> (taking AH as equal to A-Level, which is untrue as AH is harder)
  702. # [23:01] <jgraham_> Some colleges have people in buildings far from the college or rooms above the bus station/gardies/etc.
  703. # [23:01] <gsnedders> jgraham_: Yeah, that's a large part of my sister's choice
  704. # [23:02] * gsnedders will have far too much to do even over two days of open-days
  705. # [23:03] <jgraham_> gsnedders: Also, try to find out how the college deals with meals. Most have a "Kitchen Fixed Charge" that you have to pay every term
  706. # [23:03] <jgraham_> This can be in the form of meal vouchers (generally bad) or price discounts
  707. # [23:03] <gsnedders> Ergh. Fun. :\
  708. # [23:04] * gsnedders expects he'll likely end up down for the 3rd/4th July open days, if either of you are around then :P
  709. # [23:04] <Philip`> Currently the KFC at King's is £85/term, in exchange for a discount over guest rates which only saves you money if you get two meals a day there
  710. # [23:04] <jgraham_> Caius has meal vouchers and some of the worst food in the known universe. But the students still eat there because otherwise they fell they've wasted their money
  711. # [23:04] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.172)
  712. # [23:04] <annevk> via MikeSmith: http://trac.webkit.org/changeset/33033
  713. # [23:04] <annevk> interesting
  714. # [23:04] <Philip`> (though I think there are potentially-implementable plans to change things a bit in the future)
  715. # [23:05] <jgraham_> Philip`: In Kings or in general?
  716. # [23:05] <Philip`> jgraham_: In King's
  717. # [23:05] * jgraham_ has an officemate who, as a grad, has to pay a KFC at Lucy and /hates/ them for it
  718. # [23:05] <gsnedders> jgraham_: Caius?
  719. # [23:05] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  720. # [23:06] <jgraham_> http://www.cai.cam.ac.uk/
  721. # [23:06] * Philip` doesn't care about the KFC since it's quite minimal compared to other expenses
  722. # [23:06] <gsnedders> KFC? eww. :P
  723. # [23:06] <Philip`> and since I don't have anything else to spend my money on
  724. # [23:07] <jgraham_> I don't pay it atm because I don't live in college but I din't mind when I did live in college
  725. # [23:07] <jgraham_> But then I don't generally have an issue with taxation in exchange for services
  726. # [23:07] <jgraham_> As long as the services are worthwhile
  727. # [23:08] <Philip`> None of it is my money anyway, the government gave it to me :-)
  728. # [23:11] <gsnedders> jgraham_: Now I'm confused. You're at Jesus, right? Or am I confused?
  729. # [23:11] <annevk> Hixie, thought you were in favor of not having namespaces for the Selectors API? :)
  730. # [23:12] <Hixie> yeah but apparently they're not going away
  731. # [23:12] <jgraham_> gsnedders: Yeah, I'm at Jesus.
  732. # [23:12] <jgraham_> But Caius food is legendary :)
  733. # [23:12] * Quits: csarven (i=cf86fa8c@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-7ea7fffc25c7316a) ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")
  734. # [23:13] <jgraham_> (I ate there once when someone was trying to get rid of some meal tickets and got fed undercooked chicken with unpleasant BBQ sauce)
  735. # [23:14] <gsnedders> jgraham_: You're starting to make King's + KFC look _good_.
  736. # [23:14] <gsnedders> (and Edinburgh's catered accommodation look amazing)
  737. # [23:15] * Quits: qwert666 (n=qwert666@acaz215.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) (Connection timed out)
  738. # [23:15] * gsnedders heads off to bed, and warns jgraham_ and Philip` he'll be nagging them again :P
  739. # [23:16] <jgraham_> gsnedders: Everywhere has a KFC I think
  740. # [23:16] <jgraham_> It's just how they run it that changes
  741. # [23:16] <gsnedders> jgraham_: what _else_ do the colleges have, though?
  742. # [23:16] <gsnedders> Nothing?
  743. # [23:17] <jgraham_> gsnedders: KFC == Kitchen Fixed Charge, right?
  744. # [23:17] * Philip` wonders if gsnedders is thinking 'KFC' means http://www.kfc.com/
  745. # [23:17] <gsnedders> Philip`: Yes ;P
  746. # [23:17] * gsnedders is a n00b, remember?
  747. # [23:18] <gsnedders> Last day of teacher of this year of school tomorrow.
  748. # [23:18] <Philip`> Ah, it would be quite worrying if all the colleges had that kind of KFC :-p
  749. # [23:18] <gsnedders> Then no longer will I be in Secondary 5, and therefore no longer worthy of the WHATWG :P
  750. # [23:18] <gsnedders> Philip`: Yes, it would be. :P
  751. # [23:18] <Philip`> You would be no less worthy than anyone else here
  752. # [23:19] * gsnedders hopes someone is moving into S5 here
  753. # [23:19] <Philip`> (assuming nobody else here is in Secondary 5, which seems a reasonable assumption)
  754. # [23:19] <jgraham_> Philip`: Indeed. I think even college food puts that kind of KFC to shame
  755. # [23:19] * Joins: j4_james (n=James@85-211-243-101.dsl.pipex.com)
  756. # [23:19] <gsnedders> Philip`: Hey! Scotland has a population smaller than London! Don't put down its education system!
  757. # [23:20] <Philip`> gsnedders: Anyway, good night :-)
  758. # [23:20] <gsnedders> (which is to say, it is unlikely there is anyone in S4)
  759. # [23:23] * Joins: Camaban_ (n=alee@85-211-65-9.dyn.gotadsl.co.uk)
  760. # [23:24] * Quits: Camaban (n=alee@85-211-222-146.dyn.gotadsl.co.uk) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  761. # [23:25] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-9d1883b869b08b7b)
  762. # [23:27] * Parts: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  763. # [23:32] * Quits: starjive (i=beos@213-66-217-32-no30.tbcn.telia.com)
  764. # [23:36] <Philip`> I wish browser developers didn't keep trying to release browsers
  765. # [23:36] <Philip`> It's a pain since there's never enough time to find bugs before they get shipped :-(
  766. # [23:36] <othermaciej> Philip`: there's always another release to fix 'em in
  767. # [23:37] <gavin_> hey, that bug fix might still yet make firefox 3
  768. # [23:38] <roc> I hope it doesn't, personally
  769. # [23:38] <Philip`> gavin_: But I found at least one more regression :-)
  770. # [23:38] <annevk> is firefox 3 still on wir schedule or is there a release month/date?
  771. # [23:39] <gavin_> "wir schedule"?
  772. # [23:39] <gavin_> oh, when it's ready
  773. # [23:39] <gavin_> there's no set release month/date
  774. # [23:39] <gavin_> so I guess it is still wir
  775. # [23:39] <gavin_> Philip`: filed yet?
  776. # [23:40] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-02ed1657b5b9d2cf)
  777. # [23:40] <roc> according to the platform blocker list, "when it's ready" is "now"
  778. # [23:40] <roc> for Gecko at least
  779. # [23:40] <gavin_> yes
  780. # [23:40] <Philip`> gavin_: Almost
  781. # [23:40] <Hixie> i hope someone replies to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008May/0232.html and points out that none of the points raised in the five or six parent messages on that thread have been replied
  782. # [23:40] <Hixie> both boris and mjs were ignored
  783. # [23:41] <annevk> roc, gavin_, k, thanks
  784. # [23:41] <gavin_> rc1 is being built right now
  785. # [23:42] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@203.96.70.2) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  786. # [23:44] <Philip`> (gavin_: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=433397 )
  787. # [23:44] <gavin_> just saw that, yeah
  788. # [23:45] <gavin_> thanks
  789. # [23:45] * Philip` ought to check more thoroughly for canvas regressions
  790. # [23:50] * Quits: aaronlev (n=chatzill@e179092134.adsl.alicedsl.de) ("ChatZilla 0.9.82 [Firefox 3.0pre/2008051120]")
  791. # [23:53] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@203.96.70.2)
  792. # [23:56] * Quits: qwert666_ (n=qwert666@acaz215.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) ("Leaving")
  793. # Session Close: Tue May 13 00:00:00 2008

The end :)