/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-05-14 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed May 14 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Hixie> o_O
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  6. # [00:02] <Lachy> soypunk, why do you need to be able to see replies to me?
  7. # [00:02] <soypunk> well replies to your inquiry...
  8. # [00:03] <Lachy> FWIW, you're the only one to respond via twitter so far
  9. # [00:03] <Hixie> i think for explaining <meter> better we should have some pictures of gagues
  10. # [00:03] <Hixie> gauges
  11. # [00:03] <Hixie> anyone wanna take screenshots of gauge controls? :-)
  12. # [00:03] <soypunk> Lachy: are you collecting this info for the authoring guide, a follow-up ALA piece, or other?
  13. # [00:03] <Lachy> other
  14. # [00:04] * soypunk is now known as smedero
  15. # [00:04] <Lachy> for 2 things actually
  16. # [00:04] <smedero> should really keep my html-wg/whatwg nicks the same.
  17. # [00:04] <Lachy> 1. An interview I'm doing on thursday evening for a podcast, and a presentation that jgraham and I are doing at @media
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  21. # [00:27] <roc> I guess I'd better alert dcamp to those offline spec changes
  22. # [00:28] <Hixie> ooo, i didn't realise mozilla had an implementation of the offline stuff that was in sync with the spec
  23. # [00:28] <Hixie> my bad
  24. # [00:28] <roc> you didn't?
  25. # [00:28] <roc> Dave rewrote it all to be in line with the spec
  26. # [00:28] <roc> well, hopefully
  27. # [00:28] <Hixie> i thought the mozilla stuff was an old implementation that was removed for ff3
  28. # [00:28] <roc> the old implementation was removed ... and a new one inserted :-)
  29. # [00:29] <Hixie> aah :-)
  30. # [00:29] * Hixie updates the markers in the spec
  31. # [00:30] <roc> http://starkravingfinkle.org/blog/2008/05/firefox-3-offline-app-demo-part-2/
  32. # [00:30] <roc> > The biggest changes involve dropping support for our own <link rel="offline"> mechanism and supporting WHATWG manifests and application cache.
  33. # [00:30] <Hixie> nice
  34. # [00:31] <othermaciej_> is there a web interface that I can use to look at checkins of HTML5?
  35. # [00:31] <roc> I think you did know this at one point, since you wrote some tests and they failed on Firefox :-). but I think Dave fixed them
  36. # [00:31] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  37. # [00:31] <Hixie> othermaciej: yes, see the link at the top of the spec
  38. # [00:31] <Hixie> roc: ooooo, that rings a bell, yes
  39. # [00:32] <Hixie> man i need to keep better track of who does what
  40. # [00:32] <othermaciej> Hixie: thanks!
  41. # [00:33] * gsnedders improves Hixie's bell
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  45. # [00:40] <vlad_> annevk: ping
  46. # [00:40] <Hixie> ('course it's 00:37 in his time zone, so he might not be around)
  47. # [00:41] <vlad_> damn you
  48. # [00:48] <Philip`> vlad_: http://html5.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/web-apps-tracker/web-apps-tracker - patches welcome ;-)
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  53. # [00:53] <hendry> for vim users http://svn.natalian.org/projects/html5/html.vim
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  59. # [01:31] <Hixie> <script charset>
  60. # [01:31] <andersca> roc: looks like there is a bug in that offline app demo
  61. # [01:31] <Hixie> what do we think
  62. # [01:31] <Hixie> do we need it?
  63. # [01:31] <roc> andersca: yeah?
  64. # [01:31] <Hixie> or what
  65. # [01:31] <andersca> roc: I think todo-server.php should be added to the online whitelist
  66. # [01:32] <Hixie> i guess i should look at who is using it
  67. # [01:32] <andersca> roc: otherwise it will fail to load once the page has been cached
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  69. # [01:32] <roc> andersca: better let Mark know
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  71. # [01:32] <andersca> roc: will do!
  72. # [01:32] <roc> thanks
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  76. # [01:45] <Lachy> LOL http://twitter.com/webconverger/statuses/810611186
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  84. # [02:51] <andersca> Hixie?
  85. # [02:57] <Hixie> yo
  86. # [03:00] * Quits: roc (n=roc@guest-226.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  87. # [03:00] <andersca> If there is already an application cache identified by this manifest URI, and the most up to date version of that application cache contains a resource with the URI of the manifest, and that resource is categorised as a manifest, then: store the resource in the matching cache, categorised as an implicit entry, associate the Document with that cache, invoke the application cache update process, and abort these steps.
  88. # [03:00] <andersca> Hixie: was it resolved how to handle the load of the implicit resource being cancelled here?
  89. # [03:01] <Hixie> yes
  90. # [03:01] <Hixie> it's in the application cache update process algorithm
  91. # [03:01] <Hixie> step 9
  92. # [03:04] <andersca> Hixie: ah
  93. # [03:05] <andersca> Hixie: so the end result will be that the document will be associated with the cache
  94. # [03:05] <andersca> Hixie: but the implicit resource will not be in the cache
  95. # [03:06] <Hixie> yeah
  96. # [03:06] <andersca> Hixie: also, what if the load is canceled before the manifest has finished loading
  97. # [03:06] <andersca> cancelled
  98. # [03:06] <Hixie> step 8
  99. # [03:06] <Hixie> oops, there's a cross-reference error in that paragraph
  100. # [03:06] <Hixie> let me fix that
  101. # [03:08] <Hixie> ok where it says "run just to the caching failure steps" assume it says "run the cache failure steps" and links to the cache failure steps paragraph below
  102. # [03:08] <Hixie> i'm in the middle of an edit so i can't make the change right now
  103. # [03:11] <andersca> OK!
  104. # [03:11] <andersca> Hixie: thanks
  105. # [03:11] <Hixie> np
  106. # [03:12] <Hixie> search for "canceled" in that section, i added it explicitly in a few places (and in a few places, added it explicitly as NOT being something that would trigger failure mode)
  107. # [03:12] <Hixie> as to the end result if you cancel the document and it being associated with the cache anyway -- that seemed the most consistent thing to do
  108. # [03:13] <Hixie> it's what happens if the cache update fails, too
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  111. # [03:37] <andersca> Hixie: yeah
  112. # [03:45] <jwalden> mcarter: SSE?
  113. # [03:48] <Hixie> <event-source>
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  116. # [04:19] <jwalden> ah
  117. # [04:19] <jwalden> oh, server-sent events
  118. # [04:20] * jwalden is dumb
  119. # [04:20] * jwalden proposes <interlocution/>
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  123. # [05:09] <inimino> foreach ($_FILES["pictures"]["error"] as $key => $error) {
  124. # [05:09] <inimino> if ($error == UPLOAD_ERR_OK) {
  125. # [05:09] <inimino> $tmp_name = $_FILES["pictures"]["tmp_name"][$key];
  126. # [05:09] <inimino> $name = $_FILES["pictures"]["name"][$key];
  127. # [05:09] <inimino> move_uploaded_file($tmp_name, "data/$name");
  128. # [05:09] <inimino> }
  129. # [05:09] <inimino> erm, sorry
  130. # [05:09] <inimino> disregard that...
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  132. # [05:41] <MikeSmith> Hixie: just now read back to your ping about the http://www.w3.org/2000/11/DOM-Level-2-errata.html doc
  133. # [05:42] <MikeSmith> cvs log shows plehegar was the one to make the latest edit to it
  134. # [05:43] <othermaciej> oh hmm I did not realize there were errata up
  135. # [05:43] <MikeSmith> I wonder whether maybe ownership of that doc should move the Web API WG
  136. # [05:44] <othermaciej> it should, if Web API WG doesn't own it already
  137. # [05:45] <othermaciej> though really I'd rather see a redone DOM Core 3 w/ conformance requirements stated properly and bogus non-browser-relevant stuff removed or moved to an appendix
  138. # [05:46] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: yeah, but short of that I reckon that we ought to keep that errata up to date
  139. # [05:47] <MikeSmith> unless/until we get something done that supersedes it
  140. # [05:47] <othermaciej> I guess DOM levels don't supersede each other
  141. # [05:47] <othermaciej> though when HTML5 comes out it should obsolete the older HTML DOM specs
  142. # [05:48] <MikeSmith> yeah
  143. # [05:52] <MikeSmith> For now, I'm assuming Hixie has a specific change that needs to be made. For record-keeping purposes, perhaps the process we should follow is to send a heads-up about it to the Web API mailing list, decide what the wording should be, record some resolution that we agreed it needed to be changed, then Doug or I can add it to that page.
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  145. # [06:00] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: I vaguely recall that there was some minor inconsistency between DOM2 Core and DOM3 Core about exceptions
  146. # [06:00] <othermaciej> which should probably be errata'd
  147. # [06:00] <othermaciej> one of the dom 2 core test suite tests checks for it (though weirdly checks for the dom3 behavior)
  148. # [06:01] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: please write something up about it if/when you have time, send to public-webapi@w3.org
  149. # [06:01] <othermaciej> yeah, I'll have to find what the issue is
  150. # [06:04] <Hixie> MikeSmith: so you recommend mailing public-webapi@w3.org and what, getting wg consensus somewhow?
  151. # [06:05] <Hixie> i guess that works
  152. # [06:08] <MikeSmith> Hixie: yeah, if it's an obvious erratum, I think it's not so much a matter of getting consensus, it's more just having a record in the list archives that a new change was made and when
  153. # [06:09] <Hixie> k
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  156. # [06:18] <MikeSmith> Hixie: btw, do you have a rough idea of when you might add section, header, footer, etc. to the parsing algorithm?
  157. # [06:19] <Hixie> probably the next time i work on the parser
  158. # [06:19] <Hixie> since i've added mathml now there's not much point delaying further
  159. # [06:19] <MikeSmith> OK, I ask just because of the issue of html5lib reporting "Undefined behaviour for end tag" for those
  160. # [06:20] <Hixie> yeah
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  180. # [09:18] <annevk> vlad_, pong...
  181. # [09:18] * annevk wonders if vlad_ is still awake, now it's 0:00 over there :D
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  185. # [09:38] <jwalden> annevk: Opera needs to implement Date.now(), defined as function() { return new Date().getTime(); } -- I think you'd be the remaining non-IE browser without it given WebKit added support earlier today :-)
  186. # [09:39] <weinig> annevk: you haven't by any chance written any tests for the Access Control spec have you?
  187. # [09:40] <Hixie> so people want <script type="some proprietary stuff">...</script> to be a conforming way of smuggling proprietary data into a web app
  188. # [09:41] <virtuelv> jwalden: mind filing a bug on that, and give me the bug number?
  189. # [09:41] <jwalden> virtuelv: point me to a location and I will
  190. # [09:41] <Hixie> i wonder what to do abotu that
  191. # [09:42] <virtuelv> jwalden: https://bugs.opera.com/wizard
  192. # [09:43] <annevk> weinig, not yet, sorry
  193. # [09:43] <weinig> annevk: ok, no worries
  194. # [09:43] <annevk> ah, vlad requests that web-apps-tracker has an option to "strip" HTML from the diff
  195. # [09:44] <annevk> if anyone has time to implement that in a way that does not expose us to script injection attacks from Hixie, feel free :)
  196. # [09:44] <Hixie> btw anne
  197. # [09:45] <Hixie> i noticed the gears icons aren't showing properly
  198. # [09:47] <annevk> hmm, all those change requests to access control
  199. # [09:48] <annevk> if it doesn't stop i might argue for some more simplification of the server side syntax
  200. # [09:53] <jwalden> virtuelv: filed as bug 329986
  201. # [09:53] <annevk> Hixie, browsers support type=text/javascript1.3 too
  202. # [09:54] <annevk> Hixie, some do anyway
  203. # [09:54] <Hixie> really?
  204. # [09:54] <Hixie> oh
  205. # [09:54] <Hixie> well then
  206. # [09:54] <annevk> i think that makes more sense
  207. # [09:54] <Hixie> i can just strip all that crap then
  208. # [09:56] <virtuelv> jwalden: thanks
  209. # [09:56] <jwalden> virtuelv: I think that goes both ways -- speed and arithmetic usage improvements will be welcome :-)
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  211. # [10:01] <virtuelv> jwalden: I presume (but can't actually promise, since it's not my call) that this will be trivial to add
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  213. # [10:02] <jwalden> implementation-wise I have very little doubt it is, the question's resource allocation and prioritization
  214. # [10:03] <annevk> weinig, Hixie, since we have Access-Control-Origin, maybe having a space separated list of URIs from which requests are allowed (only checking the origin bits, similar to postMessage) is enough for the Access-Control / <?access-control?> case
  215. # [10:03] <Hixie> hm?
  216. # [10:03] <Hixie> what's the problem?
  217. # [10:04] <annevk> Access-Control: <http://opera.com:800> <https://w3.org/ignored>
  218. # [10:04] <annevk> it being quite complicated currently
  219. # [10:04] <Hixie> what's wrong with what we have now
  220. # [10:04] <Hixie> i thought we needed deny rules
  221. # [10:04] <Hixie> did we decide to get rid of the use cases for that?
  222. # [10:05] <annevk> deny rules are gone anyhow
  223. # [10:05] <Hixie> (and ignoring stuff in something security related is dangerous -- fail, don't ignore)
  224. # [10:05] <Hixie> they are?
  225. # [10:05] <weinig> annevk: exclude is the new deny
  226. # [10:05] <Hixie> so what does it look like now?
  227. # [10:05] <Hixie> that's what i meant by deny
  228. # [10:05] <annevk> oh ok
  229. # [10:05] <weinig> annevk: what about the wildcarding?
  230. # [10:06] <annevk> now we have Access-Control: allow <*.opera.com:*> <*.w3.org> exclude <evil.opera.com>
  231. # [10:06] <annevk> i guess it isn't too bad either
  232. # [10:07] <Hixie> i don't understand why we suddenly want to get rid of exclude rules
  233. # [10:07] <annevk> the main thing is that the majority case is probably whitelisting a few domains or using * and not doing anything this complex
  234. # [10:07] <annevk> and the real complex cases can be done using Access-Control-Origin
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  236. # [10:08] <Hixie> well i'm all for making things simpler, but then i have to wonder why we didn't do them simple in the first place
  237. # [10:08] <Hixie> getting rid of "exclude" (and removing the "allow" keyword) is fine by me
  238. # [10:09] <Hixie> we still need the wildcards though
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  240. # [10:09] <annevk> Hixie, wildcards for domains?
  241. # [10:09] <Hixie> protocols, domains, and ports
  242. # [10:09] <Hixie> same as now
  243. # [10:10] <Hixie> i'm just talking about just dropping the "exclude" part and the "allow" keyword
  244. # [10:10] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@c-24-130-11-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  245. # [10:11] <annevk> ok
  246. # [10:12] <annevk> i guess still allowing 'example.org' isn't too much trouble then either
  247. # [10:12] <Hixie> it's not trouble at all, you've already specified it
  248. # [10:12] <annevk> :)
  249. # [10:13] <Hixie> every time you make a change to a specification that isn't a change that fixes an actual error or that adds a new important feature, you lose a bit of credibility as a spec editor
  250. # [10:13] <Hixie> churn is bad
  251. # [10:13] <Hixie> people get frustrated if the spec keeps changing in non-obvious ways for apparently no reason
  252. # [10:15] <Hixie> especially when they have already implemented it
  253. # [10:15] <annevk> true, i'm just trying to figure out if we can reduce complexity because people have been complaining about that and i sort of agree it's quite complex
  254. # [10:15] <Hixie> i'd concentrate on getting the header story straightened out before worrying about that :-)
  255. # [10:16] <annevk> and given that the implementors (apart from WebKit so far) have been proposing changes as well during implementation...
  256. # [10:16] <weinig> I am not sure I see the benefit to users of removing exclude, as it is already optional
  257. # [10:16] <annevk> for instance, now Mozilla wants header/method opt-in
  258. # [10:16] <annevk> weinig, yeah, I guess i'll just keep all that in
  259. # [10:17] <weinig> ok
  260. # [10:17] <Hixie> did sicking ever send the second e-mail he said he would send?
  261. # [10:18] <weinig> annevk: what do you mean by header/method opt-in?
  262. # [10:18] <annevk> Hixie, no, he hasn't
  263. # [10:18] <Hixie> odd
  264. # [10:19] <annevk> weinig, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-appformats/2008May/0034.html
  265. # [10:19] <weinig> ah, I list I am not on :)
  266. # [10:20] <annevk> access-control / xhr2 is currently developed on two separate lists unfortunately :(
  267. # [10:20] <annevk> once people get their act together it will be on one, but i'm not sure how long that'll take
  268. # [10:22] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@124-168-18-250.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  269. # [10:23] <weinig> will read the relevant back log of that list tomorrow
  270. # [10:23] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@c-24-130-11-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  271. # [10:25] * Philip` forgets why <dialog> can't just be spelt as <dl>
  272. # [10:26] * Quits: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-212-222.dsl.pipex.com) ("I'll hit the bottom and escape")
  273. # [10:27] * takkaria boggles what happened to the alt thread overnight
  274. # [10:27] <othermaciej> annevk: hmm, I don't get how "Access-Control-Extra-Headers" addresses the stated problem
  275. # [10:28] <othermaciej> annevk: doesn't XHR2+AC already whitelist to a short list of headers?
  276. # [10:28] <othermaciej> or am I confused?
  277. # [10:28] <othermaciej> I guess I should get on public-appformats
  278. # [10:29] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  281. # [10:30] <Hixie> Philip`: different content models, different basic idea
  282. # [10:30] <Hixie> Philip`: a dialog is not a set of one-or-more-names/one-or-more-values tuples
  283. # [10:31] <Hixie> though maybe it should allow multiple names per "quote"
  284. # [10:31] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  285. # [10:33] <annevk> othermaciej, it whitelists a short list of headers for the request, but if you go outside that list and the server responds positively to a preflight request the headers will get through
  286. # [10:33] <annevk> (apart from the blacklisted headers of course)
  287. # [10:34] <othermaciej> annevk: ok I see
  288. # [10:34] <Philip`> Hixie: Since you removed the new bit about language=javascript1.x, where is that handled now?
  289. # [10:35] <Hixie> see mail to public-html
  290. # [10:35] <Hixie> it's handled by turning it into type=text/language/javascript1.x
  291. # [10:35] <Hixie> which browsers support already
  292. # [10:35] <annevk> well, some do
  293. # [10:35] <annevk> such as WebKit iirc
  294. # [10:36] <Philip`> I think my point was that it's not obvious to a UA implementor that they should support those in addition to text/javascript
  295. # [10:36] <Hixie> ah well maybe we should update the relevant rfc
  296. # [10:36] <Hixie> it needs updating anyway, right now it dumbly obsolete text/javascript
  297. # [10:36] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  298. # [10:36] <Philip`> The "Scripting languages" section already mentions "text/javascript", so it'd be helpful for implementors if that mentioned the typical aliases too
  299. # [10:36] <Hixie> and it doesn't define the e4x parameter, and it looks like the ES4 group is planning on making all kinds of mistakes with a version= parameter, too, which will also need defining
  300. # [10:37] <Hixie> yeah, that could work
  301. # [10:37] <Hixie> reply to the thread :-)
  302. # [10:37] <Philip`> Hixie: By "see mail to public-html", do you mean the mail which says "Done" when actually the final result to the spec was no change? :-)
  303. # [10:38] <Hixie> no, the reply to that one
  304. # [10:39] <Philip`> I don't see a reply
  305. # [10:39] <Philip`> ...but that's not your problem
  306. # [10:39] <Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008May/0292.html
  307. # [10:39] <Philip`> since it's just the list/Gmail being slow
  308. # [10:43] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  309. # [10:45] <takkaria> I'd forgotten quite how frustrating being a participant in the alt debate is
  310. # [10:45] <Hixie> i'd forgotten why i never reply in real time to threads
  311. # [10:45] <annevk> <interplay>
  312. # [10:45] <Hixie> i'm now relearning this with the <dialog> issue
  313. # [10:45] <takkaria> :)
  314. # [10:47] <Hixie> ok
  315. # [10:47] <Hixie> you may now vote on the next thing i work on
  316. # [10:47] <Hixie> should it be:
  317. # [10:47] <Hixie> <iframe> features
  318. # [10:47] <Hixie> or
  319. # [10:47] <Hixie> <video>
  320. # [10:47] <Hixie> you decide!
  321. # [10:47] <takkaria> video!
  322. # [10:48] <takkaria> I hope you're not expecting rationales
  323. # [10:49] <annevk> are we going to add <iframe> features for HTML5?
  324. # [10:49] * annevk is silently hoping we push the sandbox issue out of HTML5
  325. # [10:49] <annevk> hah, so much for silently
  326. # [10:50] <Hixie> i'm expecting us to add iframe sandboxing features
  327. # [10:50] <othermaciej> I have heard someone from Microsoft claim that <iframe> is not a strong enough sandbox as-is and therefore iframe+postMessage was not a good enough solution for "mashups"
  328. # [10:51] <othermaciej> but he refused to say what the specific issues are
  329. # [10:51] <othermaciej> (why does this sound so familiar?)
  330. # [10:51] <annevk> parent.location.href = '...' is an issue
  331. # [10:51] <Hixie> in particular see the end of http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-May/011198.html for what i expect to look at adding
  332. # [10:51] <annevk> (from Douglas Crockford)
  333. # [10:52] <othermaciej> Hixie: <script sandbox="">?
  334. # [10:52] <Hixie> ?
  335. # [10:52] <othermaciej> I hope that's not the proposal you expect to look at adding
  336. # [10:53] <Hixie> "the end of" was a key part of what i wrote just now :-)
  337. # [10:53] <othermaciej> then I have a lot of reading to do to get to the bottom!
  338. # [10:54] <Hixie> sorry :-)
  339. # [10:54] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  340. # [10:54] <Hixie> my bit starts from the line that just says "PROBLEMS"
  341. # [10:54] <annevk> you could just press "End"
  342. # [10:54] <Hixie> the rest is me mostly telling people their ideas suck
  343. # [10:54] <Hixie> (about 70% down)
  344. # [10:54] <Hixie> aybe 60%
  345. # [10:56] <othermaciej> Hixie: I think you dismissed the md5= possibility too readily - you just keep reading characters until the checksum matches, that works even if the content contains a malicious </sandbox>
  346. # [10:56] <othermaciej> faking the hash is a risk
  347. # [10:56] <othermaciej> another possibility is to require a psuedo-attribute on the end tag
  348. # [10:56] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  349. # [10:57] <othermaciej> <sandbox token="13498564123"><!-- that was a random number --> </sandbox token="13498564123">
  350. # [10:57] <Hixie> yeah i believe i have that feedback from you in the pile
  351. # [10:58] <othermaciej> I don't remember if I said this specific stuff before
  352. # [10:58] <othermaciej> though I vaguely remember this being discussed
  353. # [10:59] <Philip`> <sandbox13498564123><!-- now you don't even have to change the parser much --></sandbox13498564123>
  354. # [10:59] <othermaciej> client-side filtering of script could be done with less chance of time-of-check time-of-use errors, since browsers know exactly when they will run script
  355. # [10:59] <othermaciej> Philip`: or use a colon
  356. # [10:59] <Philip`> othermaciej: I assume this ought to work in XHTML too
  357. # [10:59] * Quits: sverrej (n=sverrej@89.10.27.86) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  358. # [10:59] <othermaciej> <sandbox:13498564123><!-- now you don't even have to change the parser much --></sandbox:13498564123>
  359. # [11:00] <othermaciej> Philip`: I am not sure premature close is the same kind of problem in XHTML since it renders the document not well formed
  360. # [11:00] <othermaciej> Philip`: but I guess scripts could have run by the time you find that out
  361. # [11:00] <annevk> all this sandboxing seems rather fragile
  362. # [11:00] <othermaciej> and I'm sure Hixie won't want to invent a sandbox: namespace
  363. # [11:01] <Hixie> the biggest problem with a checksum thing is that if you get it wrong, your document ends up all in the sandbox
  364. # [11:01] <Hixie> well maybe no the biggest problem
  365. # [11:01] <Hixie> a big problem
  366. # [11:01] <othermaciej> annevk: basically the main benefit is that it lets sites be lazy and not do whitelist content filtering; and it avoids the possibility of a whitelist that is too lenient
  367. # [11:01] <Philip`> othermaciej: You should be able to take any HTML document and reserialise it as XHTML without any fancy transformations, even if some of the HTML features are redundant in XML, otherwise hsivonen will be unhappy
  368. # [11:02] <Hixie> not being able to provide this feature in xhtml is not imho any kind of blocker
  369. # [11:02] <Hixie> :-)
  370. # [11:02] <othermaciej> Hixie: my idea and Phillip's variant both do not have the possibility of getting a checksum wrong (though it is possible the magic random token will be copied wrong)
  371. # [11:02] <Hixie> othermaciej: how so?
  372. # [11:03] <othermaciej> there is no checksum
  373. # [11:03] <othermaciej> the token is arbitrary - the defense is that hostile content cannot predict it
  374. # [11:03] <Philip`> I assume XHTML5 would still want the safe script sandbox behaviour, even though the parser issue is only relevant for HTML
  375. # [11:03] <Hixie> othermaciej: oh the random number idea doesn't work at all, you're totally dependent on the site making unpredictable choices of random numbers
  376. # [11:04] <Hixie> othermaciej: given that we couldn't even depend on openssl's security experts making unpredictable ssl certs, i don't think we can rely on joe author making unpredictable magic numbers
  377. # [11:04] <annevk> and if people are allowed to edit their comments you would have to regenerate the magic number and you might forget to do that, etc.
  378. # [11:05] <othermaciej> generating a random number is certainly something you can fail at, but so is whitelist content filtering (the current best practice for injecting unknown content)
  379. # [11:05] <zcorpan> i know a name for <dialog>... <dl>
  380. # [11:05] <zcorpan> short for DiaLog
  381. # [11:05] <zcorpan> (or DiaLogue)
  382. # [11:05] <othermaciej> zcorpan: cute
  383. # [11:06] <Hixie> othermaciej: whitelist filtering is far easier to understand than random number generation, which is basically a black art
  384. # [11:06] * Quits: didymos (i=jho@rapwap.razor.dk) (Remote closed the connection)
  385. # [11:07] <Philip`> Hixie: OpenSSL's security experts did it right, it was just the Debian developers who commented out all the entropy
  386. # [11:08] <Hixie> Philip`: for the recent case, yeah, but wasn't there a case long ago that was a real bug?
  387. # [11:08] <Philip`> Hixie: Oh, no idea
  388. # [11:08] <Hixie> Philip`: or alternatively, consider than win2k, winxp, and vista all had a system RNG that was proved predictable after something like 8 years
  389. # [11:08] <othermaciej> Hixie: well on Mac OS X you just call arc4random, but yeah you can screw it up
  390. # [11:09] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  391. # [11:09] <othermaciej> though a random token, unlike a checksum, would be easily fixable w/ no browser changes needed in case the algorithm is found to be vulnerable
  392. # [11:10] <othermaciej> though I guess it could turn comment spam into a CPU hogging attack generating all that entropy
  393. # [11:10] <othermaciej> anyway, I am not sure safe markup injection via a client-side feature is feasible, but if it were there would clearly be some advantages
  394. # [11:10] <Philip`> You'd probably generate the entropy on (uncached) page views, not on comment posting
  395. # [11:11] <Philip`> s/generate/use/
  396. # [11:11] <othermaciej> Philip`: I don't think you would want to generate a different random number every time, though maybe every time you generate the page if you cache static copies
  397. # [11:11] <Philip`> Fortunately thermodynamics guarantees that entropy won't decrease, so you'll never permanently run out
  398. # [11:13] <othermaciej> thank goodness
  399. # [11:14] <zcorpan> Hixie: experience with <address> should suggest that the element name matters more than its definition in terms of what authors will use it for
  400. # [11:14] <othermaciej> Hixie: styles cascading through a browsing context boundary (wait, do you mean cascading or inheriting or both) sounds like an interesting implementation challenge
  401. # [11:15] <othermaciej> Hixie: I do like <iframe noscript> and <iframe restrict> though (well, depending on specific restrictions)
  402. # [11:16] <othermaciej> Hixie: though restrict seems better for embedded "gadgets" than for comment fields
  403. # [11:16] <Hixie> yeah the stuff at the end is mostly just random ideas
  404. # [11:17] <Hixie> i haven't thought through exactly what the needs are
  405. # [11:17] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-6f4d32298fad5beb)
  406. # [11:19] <othermaciej> I think the real answer to the JSON case is cross-site XHR plus a native JSON API
  407. # [11:20] <othermaciej> trying to run scripts in the same browsing context but with special restrictions sounds like disasterville
  408. # [11:20] <othermaciej> I know you agree and all
  409. # [11:20] <othermaciej> I just had to say it
  410. # [11:23] <jgraham> Hixie: FWIW I think zcorpan is right, and I think enough people have complained about <dialog> to suggest it is a real issue
  411. # [11:23] <Hixie> what was the JSON case again?
  412. # [11:23] <Hixie> jgraham: the difference is that you could use <address> to include an address and nothing would go wrong. Using <dialog> for a dialog box makes no sense.
  413. # [11:24] <zcorpan> Hixie: makes about as much sense to me as using <div class=dialog>
  414. # [11:25] <zcorpan> Hixie: consider that dialog boxes would mostly be scripted and so would bypass validation
  415. # [11:25] <jgraham> Well nothing will happen but then nothing happens when you use <nav> for navigation either
  416. # [11:25] <Hixie> i don't understand what <div class="dialog"> would do either
  417. # [11:25] <othermaciej> Hixie: people embed semi-untrusted off-site script to transfer JSON data (the script is expected to just assign to a var)
  418. # [11:25] <jgraham> People are used to the idea that elements exist for no function other than "semantics"
  419. # [11:25] <zcorpan> Hixie: it wouldn't do anything except provide a hook for scripting and styling for the author to implement the dialog box
  420. # [11:29] <zcorpan> Hixie: (i'm just being a bitch here, i actually couldn't care less about the name)
  421. # [11:31] <Hixie> othermaciej: xhr2 is the solution to that
  422. # [11:32] <Hixie> jgraham: well i'd use a better name, but frankly i haven't seen one that wouldn't have worse problems than <dialog>
  423. # [11:32] <Hixie> zcorpan: :-)
  424. # [11:32] <othermaciej> Hixie: I mention native JSON API because ideally people would also stop using eval for this purpose (sometimes, awfully enough, eval without the proper preflight regexp)
  425. # [11:32] <zcorpan> Hixie: what's the problem with <dl>?
  426. # [11:34] <Lachy> Hixie, you could just allow <dl> to be used for dialog as well, and drop <dialog>
  427. # [11:34] <jgraham> Hixie: I know all the alternatives suck in their own special ways :(
  428. # [11:34] <Hixie> othermaciej: i recommend xml :-)
  429. # [11:34] <othermaciej> Hixie: no you don't
  430. # [11:34] <Hixie> zcorpan: it's inappropriate? it'd be like using <ol> for a set of paragraphs
  431. # [11:34] <Hixie> othermaciej: over json? sure it do
  432. # [11:34] <Hixie> i
  433. # [11:34] * jgraham dislikes <dl> even more than <dialog>
  434. # [11:34] <othermaciej> I meant, generally speaking
  435. # [11:35] <zcorpan> Hixie: why is it inappropriate if the spec says it's appropriate?
  436. # [11:35] <Hixie> othermaciej: for proprietary sending data across servers, xml is often a fine thing
  437. # [11:35] <Lachy> how about <transcript>
  438. # [11:35] <othermaciej> I think JSON is nicer than XML for dumb data though to be fair adding a native API misses the point that it was just a built-in language construct
  439. # [11:35] <jgraham> <transcript> sounds pretty nice, although it's not strictly right
  440. # [11:35] <Hixie> zcorpan: because it would be dumb for hte spec to say it's appropriate. it'd be like using <ol> for lists and paragraphs, or something equally bogus
  441. # [11:36] <Lachy> nah, that's work too well
  442. # [11:36] <Hixie> othermaciej: well, maybe. not html5's problem, either way.
  443. # [11:36] <othermaciej> I'll agree with that
  444. # [11:40] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Remote closed the connection)
  445. # [11:43] <Hixie> i'm more tired than i should be at this time, so i'll just go to bed.
  446. # [11:43] <Hixie> nn!
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  481. # [13:34] <zcorpan> annevk: can html5.org please link to the tracker?
  482. # [13:39] <zcorpan> i wonder if the requirement that <script src> elements must be empty is helpful or not
  483. # [13:40] <zcorpan> i've seen pages that use comments in <script src>, either <!--pseudo-comments--> or /* js comments */
  484. # [13:41] <Dashiva> It keeps the future open for allowing something there?
  485. # [13:42] <gsnedders> Dashiva: But that'd need be defined in HTML 2π, so requiring it to be empty in HTML 5 changes nothing
  486. # [13:42] <zcorpan> Dashiva: i don't think so -- html4 allows stuff there and people don't care whether the spec allows it or not anyway
  487. # [13:42] * gsnedders really hopes the next revision _is_ 2π
  488. # [13:43] <zcorpan> Dashiva: what would you allow there in the future anyway?
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  491. # [13:44] <Dashiva> zcorpan: Nested script elements for fallback
  492. # [13:44] <zcorpan> Dashiva: that doesn't work in legacy browsers so not particularly good fallback story
  493. # [13:45] <zcorpan> Dashiva: <script type=unknown>..</script> <script> fallback </script> works
  494. # [13:45] <Dashiva> zcorpan: Not if you support both scripts
  495. # [13:45] <zcorpan> Dashiva: they might be able to communicate with each other
  496. # [13:45] <zcorpan> Dashiva: so the new script can set a flag that it has executed
  497. # [13:45] <Dashiva> That's a big might
  498. # [13:46] <zcorpan> maybe but <script type=unknown> .. <script> fallback </script> </script> is guarenteed to *not* work
  499. # [13:47] <Dashiva> You're nesting the wrong way
  500. # [13:48] <Dashiva> Old browsers ignore the contents, so they use the outer element's src. New browsers check the contents for another script element and use that if possible
  501. # [13:48] <zcorpan> nesting doens't work either way
  502. # [13:49] <zcorpan> Dashiva: script is cdata parsing, can't have elements in there at all. changing that would break legacy content
  503. # [13:49] <Philip`> Dashiva: That might hurt with <script language=unknown>/* legacy content */ document.write('<script>'); </script>
  504. # [13:50] <Dashiva> Philip`: This is only with @src
  505. # [13:50] <Philip`> Ah
  506. # [13:51] <zcorpan> i'd rather design a new script language for the web in such a way that it's possible to communicate with javascript
  507. # [13:52] <zcorpan> (like flash can communicate with javascript, at least i think it can)
  508. # [13:52] <annevk> zcorpan, added
  509. # [13:52] <zcorpan> annevk: thanks
  510. # [13:55] <zcorpan> Dashiva: in practice, authors just put harmless stuff in there and the validator will complain about it, and they have to move the comment out of the script element, which seems pointless
  511. # [13:56] <zcorpan> Dashiva: moreover, if the legacy script is external, why not let the new script be external too and have another attribute for the new script?
  512. # [13:56] <zcorpan> <script src=fallback newsrc=new>
  513. # [13:56] <Dashiva> zcorpan: And duplicate all the other attributes as well?
  514. # [13:57] <zcorpan> Dashiva: what other attributes?
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  516. # [13:58] <Dashiva> You'd want type, to make sure you actually support the new script.
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  518. # [13:59] <zcorpan> why?
  519. # [13:59] <zcorpan> you know you support it since you support the newsrc='' attribute
  520. # [14:00] <zcorpan> of course this doesn't scale to many new scripting languages
  521. # [14:00] <zcorpan> btw, can vbscript talk to javascript?
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  523. # [14:00] <Dashiva> Well, yeah, if you make one new src for each language, that'd work, but that's kinda crazy :)
  524. # [14:01] <zcorpan> let's solve this problem when a new scripting language actually is introduced :)
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  526. # [14:02] <Dashiva> But until then, keeping our script elements neat and tidy doesn't hurt :P
  527. # [14:03] <zcorpan> Philip`: whenever you're bored enough, could you dig for data about pages that use <script src>..nonwhitespace..</script> ? :)
  528. # [14:09] <zcorpan> btw, <script src=my-interpreter id=myscript>my custom syntax script</script> could work
  529. # [14:10] <zcorpan> instead of <script type=my/custom>syntax script</script> <script src=my-interpreter></script>
  530. # [14:10] <zcorpan> (with id..)
  531. # [14:12] <zcorpan> although i guess that's less intiutive and so authors don't do it anyway, so might be pointless to allow it
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  535. # [14:35] <Philip`> I would guess the most common case of content in srced scripts is when people write <script src="..." />[rest of page content]
  536. # [14:37] <zcorpan> Philip`: i guess it would be interesting to know how common that is too :)
  537. # [14:38] * Philip` wishes Eclipse didn't crash immediately after loading
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  547. # [15:04] * Philip` has too many pages to process them all in a reasonable time :-(
  548. # [15:06] <Philip`> Ah, only 10424 left
  549. # [15:09] <Philip`> zcorpan: http://philip.html5.org/data/nonempty-scripts.html
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  557. # [15:23] <zcorpan> Philip`: thanks!
  558. # [15:24] <zcorpan> ah, ";" is something i've seen as a way to prevent xslt to convert it to <script src='...'/>
  559. # [15:28] <Philip`> A couple of princeton.edu pages have a literal nbsp character inside their <script>
  560. # [15:28] <Philip`> I don't know if that's for the same kind of reason
  561. # [15:31] <zcorpan> i wonder if http://weather.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/iwszone?Sites=:njz024:njz023 put tags in script as a way to comment them out or if it actually was a mistake to put them there
  562. # [15:31] <zcorpan> they're duplicated before the script tag
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  565. # [15:36] <zcorpan> hsivonen: in http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.agl1985.org%2F&parser=html5&showsource=yes , group messages and look at "Error: Text not allowed in element script in this context."
  566. # [15:37] <zcorpan> hsivonen: notice that it seems to split up the text node and complain several times about the same <script> element containing text
  567. # [15:39] <zcorpan> i guess that page would be helped by the requirement since it has <script src><script src></script> where it was probably intended to have 2 script elements
  568. # [15:40] <zcorpan> but a conformance checker might be able to detect that anyway
  569. # [15:40] <zcorpan> and give a warning
  570. # [15:41] <zcorpan> i.e., if a script element contains "<script" that is not in an escaped text span
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  574. # [15:44] <zcorpan> i guess authors would be stumped when the validator says to (re)move "/* ... This notice MUST stay intact for legal use ... */"
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  583. # [16:23] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks. that's an undesirable but technically understandable feature of Jing
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  585. # [16:23] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I'll see what I can do about it
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  589. # [16:54] <hsivonen> <discourse> might actually be better than <dialog>
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  591. # [16:58] <Philip`> Maybe it'd be better to drop the element entirely, since very few people will ever use it
  592. # [16:58] <hsivonen> oh sure
  593. # [16:59] <Philip`> When people are arguing over the colour of the bikeshed, the simplest solution is a bulldozer
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  599. # [17:18] <hsivonen> which reminds me that I want the SVG parsing stuff unbulldozed
  600. # [17:18] <shepazu> then help out
  601. # [17:19] <shepazu> we aren't bulldozing, we are working on a proposal
  602. # [17:19] * zcorpan would like to have a list of requirements and a list of objections to the proposal that was in the spec
  603. # [17:21] <zcorpan> or rather i think it would be helpful for the interested parties
  604. # [17:22] <Philip`> shepazu: Is that work happening anywhere open/public?
  605. # [17:23] <shepazu> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG_in_text-html
  606. # [17:24] <shepazu> mind, I've been on vacation for the last 2 weeks
  607. # [17:25] <shepazu> and I prefer the previous revision
  608. # [17:27] <Philip`> "Should be able to take a conforming SVG document and paste its contents into an HTML document and have it be the same DOM" - is that talking about at least one SVG document (which would be useless) or all SVG documents (which would be impossible because of the DTD stuff)?
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  610. # [17:28] <Philip`> I suppose it should be talking about the subset of SVG documents that can be generated by Inkscape and Illustrator, i.e. unprefixed element names and no fancy DTD stuff except some namespace strings (I hope)
  611. # [17:28] <Lachy> Yay! it's about time the W3C started investigating the copyright licence for the authoring guide. :-)
  612. # [17:29] <Lachy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008May/0295.html
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  614. # [17:30] <Lachy> I don't understand what he means by this point: "that this is a copyright and not a licensing issue"
  615. # [17:30] <Lachy> what's the difference?
  616. # [17:30] <hsivonen> shepazu: the main SVG WG objection that I am aware of is an objection that I think is misguided and should be fixed by removing the objection
  617. # [17:30] <shepazu> hsivonen: and the rest of us differ
  618. # [17:31] <hsivonen> shepazu: so how would I help out?
  619. # [17:31] <shepazu> in a telcon, brb
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  625. # [17:58] <zcorpan> why is it a requirement that it produces the same DOM? HTML and XHTML have slightly different DOMs. shouldn't it be a requirement that the image renders the same as it would in XML?
  626. # [17:59] <zcorpan> e.g. it would render the same even if RDF doesn't survive
  627. # [18:02] <zcorpan> "Should be able to provide some sort of fallback mechanism for the SVG-in-HTML so that UAs that don’t know how to handle these SVG fragments will display the fallback."
  628. # [18:02] <zcorpan> i think that's orthogonal to text/html integration since it equally applies to application/xhtml+xml
  629. # [18:03] <annevk> can't even require rendering the same way
  630. # [18:03] <annevk> quirks mode baby
  631. # [18:03] <zcorpan> although text/html parsing can do some tricks to help, e.g. support cdata sections in some places but not others
  632. # [18:03] <Philip`> zcorpan: The most relevant UAs that support application/xhtml+xml also support SVG, so that's a mostly theoretical concern, whereas fallback for SVG-in-text/html is a practical concern
  633. # [18:03] <Lachy> why does quirks mode have to have any effect upon the rendering of SVG?
  634. # [18:04] <zcorpan> Lachy: case sensitivity of class
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  636. # [18:05] <Lachy> but does the case insenstivity need to apply to SVG elements? Why can't it just apply to HTML elements?
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  640. # [18:06] <zcorpan> Lachy: in firefox, opera and safari, it applies to svg as well
  641. # [18:07] <zcorpan> Lachy: it doesn't need to
  642. # [18:07] <Lachy> ah, crap :-(
  643. # [18:07] <zcorpan> but consistency is nice ;)
  644. # [18:07] <zcorpan> i think class should be case insensitive in getElementsByClassName and querySelector too
  645. # [18:07] <zcorpan> in quirks mode
  646. # [18:08] <Lachy> zcorpan, mail public-webapi about that
  647. # [18:08] <zcorpan> Lachy: ok
  648. # [18:08] <Lachy> oh, but that probably doesn't need to be specced in there
  649. # [18:09] <Lachy> if the case insensitivity is defined in HTML5, and Selectors defines the semantics of the class selector, it can be safely left up to those specs.
  650. # [18:09] <Lachy> but send mail anyway, just incase I'm wrong about it.
  651. # [18:09] <zcorpan> yeah i concluded the same (that html5 can define it)
  652. # [18:09] <zcorpan> but ok
  653. # [18:13] <Lachy> oh, crap :-(
  654. # [18:14] <Lachy> IE8 doesn't even support querySelector in quirks mode
  655. # [18:14] <zcorpan> sad but not very surprising
  656. # [18:15] <Lachy> true, since they're using the IE5.5 quirks mode engine.
  657. # [18:17] <Lachy> hmm. WebKit won't uppercase class names at all in quirks mode.
  658. # [18:18] <Lachy> <p class="FOO"> won't be matched by document.querySelector(".FOO"); (but it does match if both are lowercase)
  659. # [18:18] * Lachy goes to file a bug
  660. # [18:18] <Philip`> zcorpan: About <script src>: Did you count number of script elements, or number of pages?
  661. # [18:20] * Philip` notes that he doesn't guarantee his output doesn't interleave elements from different pages, since it depends on what the thread scheduler decided to do
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  670. # [18:51] <takkaria> ha!
  671. # [18:51] <takkaria> the TAG wants to make people use aria: rather than aria-
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  673. # [18:54] <Philip`> The cost-benefit analysis seems to be missing that the 'colon' approach is a "new paradigm for 'namespace'"
  674. # [18:55] <krijn> Iria:tating :/
  675. # [18:55] <Philip`> where the new paradigm involves using getAttribute instead of getAttributeNS, and not requiring xmlns, and not allowing the prefix to be variable
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  677. # [18:56] <Philip`> i.e. whatever it is, it's not XML Namespaces
  678. # [18:57] <Philip`> (but is close enough to confuse people into thinking that it is)
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  680. # [18:57] <BenMillard> takkaria, krijn and Philip` are discussin the Q&A blog entry here, I take it? http://www.w3.org/QA/2008/05/syntax_for_aria_costbenefit_an.html
  681. # [18:58] <krijn> I have no idea, people should not notice my comments in here ;)
  682. # [18:58] <Philip`> BenMillard: I think so, via http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008May/0308.html
  683. # [18:58] <takkaria> that's what I was referring to, yes
  684. # [18:58] <smedero> there's also the last TAG minutes: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/05/08-minutes
  685. # [18:59] <BenMillard> looks like the author of the Q&A entry pasted the HTML output of a word processor document instead of conforming with the Q&A style and structure
  686. # [19:00] <Philip`> The colon thing would make more sense in a world that was going to transition away from text/html and to application/xhtml+xml, since then we'd end up with a relatively clean architecture and everything
  687. # [19:00] <Philip`> but that's not going to happen, and we'd be stuck with a colon mess in text/html
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  689. # [19:01] <takkaria> Philip`: you think it's not going to happen, I daresay that the TAG think/hope it will...
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  691. # [19:02] <BenMillard> from the minutes they consider this part of tagSoupIntegration-54 :(
  692. # [19:02] <BenMillard> so they look dead set on deprecating text/html as quickly as possible...still
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  695. # [19:03] <Philip`> takkaria: There's a petabyte of legacy content that disagrees
  696. # [19:03] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@c-24-130-11-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Connection timed out)
  697. # [19:03] <takkaria> Philip`: your argument is invalid (that people haven't yet does not mean that they will) as well you know
  698. # [19:03] <takkaria> however true the conclusion is. :)
  699. # [19:04] <zcorpan_> Hixie: shouldn't it be degrade gracefully rather than fail gracefully, since the application still works in the given example?
  700. # [19:04] <Philip`> takkaria: The argument is that even if everyone in the world started producing XHTML, there's just too much HTML for it to ever go away
  701. # [19:07] <takkaria> hmm, the minutes are interesting
  702. # [19:07] <Philip`> (Of course that's untrue since there won't still be humans using HTML a million years from now; but I would hope at that point the transition is to something far more radical than XHTML)
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  706. # [19:09] <takkaria> hmm, the minutes are interesting reading
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  708. # [19:09] <takkaria> about the SVG WG: "I think they're the obvious case to lean on for a uniform solution. They're in XML and they already have a story that says it's ok to add new attributes in foreign namespaces anywhere you like."
  709. # [19:09] * jmb^ is now known as jmb
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  712. # [19:14] <BenMillard> takkaria, I agree
  713. # [19:15] <shepazu> takkaria: he said that about the SVG community, not the SVG WG
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  715. # [19:16] <takkaria> shepazu: ah, my bad
  716. # [19:18] <shepazu> and I'm not sure I agree with him... it's now implemented, for better or worse, and that's the important thing
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  720. # [19:20] <zcorpan_> Philip`: i counted number of script elements
  721. # [19:23] <MikeSmith> takkaria: btw, any update on your plans for HTML5 parsing implementation?
  722. # [19:23] <takkaria> MikeSmith: yeah, I have a position to start
  723. # [19:23] <takkaria> MikeSmith: as in, I was accepted
  724. # [19:24] <takkaria> I have a printout of the relevant bits of the spec now too
  725. # [19:24] <takkaria> it's exam period though, so I'm only really playing around with the existing code in my breaks
  726. # [19:26] <hsivonen> Philip`: Henry and I disagree on which is worse: colon but no NS processing or having a non-colon delimiter
  727. # [19:27] <hsivonen> Philip`: I think colon without NS processing is worse than going to non-NS processing using an untainted delimiter
  728. # [19:27] <hsivonen> people with Member access may be interested in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2008May/0026.html
  729. # [19:28] <Philip`> People without Member access could be interested too :-)
  730. # [19:28] <hsivonen> yeah :-(
  731. # [19:29] <MikeSmith> Bobby "Blue" Bland had a great song called "Members Only"
  732. # [19:31] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.172)
  733. # [19:32] <MikeSmith> and Jimi Hendrix had a great song called "Castles Made of Sand"
  734. # [19:33] <takkaria> yeah, that's a fantastic song
  735. # [19:34] <takkaria> I'm trying to work out what could possibly end the permathread
  736. # [19:34] <MikeSmith> good luck with that
  737. # [19:34] <takkaria> I think some people just have yet to be convinced that there are cases where alt text is genuinely not available
  738. # [19:34] <Philip`> I imagine the one thing that won't end the thread is posting to it :-)
  739. # [19:34] * takkaria grins
  740. # [19:35] <Philip`> Of course the other thing that won't end it is not posting to it
  741. # [19:36] * Joins: malware (n=MikeSmit@58.157.21.205)
  742. # [19:36] <takkaria> the straw men make having a decent debate hard :(
  743. # [19:36] <takkaria> IME, this kind of thing is best resolved by sitting down and negotiating one-on-one, at least in real life
  744. # [19:36] * Joins: jwalden (n=waldo@STRATTON-THREE-TWENTY-NINE.MIT.EDU)
  745. # [19:37] <Philip`> You can defeat the straw men by starting a flamewar
  746. # [19:37] <takkaria> personally I find the a11y people including personal insults all the time to be on par with trying to start a flamewar
  747. # [19:38] <Philip`> I think "all the time" is quite an exaggeration
  748. # [19:39] <Philip`> and "the a11y people" is quite a term which I've forgotten
  749. # [19:39] <Philip`> Uh, a generalisation?
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  751. # [19:41] <takkaria> well, of the posts I've made on that topic since I started it, I think most of the replies to me included some implications that I was thoughtless, naive, ignorant, presumptious etc
  752. # [19:41] <takkaria> (not all of the above in any one post, but one of them in most)
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  754. # [19:42] <MikeSmith> I can imagine that some might say that the whole should-alt-be-required discussion is massive waste of time that could have been completely prevented by some better judgement on the part of the editor
  755. # [19:42] * Quits: malware (n=MikeSmit@58.157.21.205) ("Less talk, more pimp walk.")
  756. # [19:45] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Better technical judgement, or better appease-everyone-so-they-stop-arguing judgement?
  757. # [19:46] <MikeSmith> neither
  758. # [19:51] <takkaria> I increasingly think that asking a photographer-for-a-living to provide alt text for e.g. a portfolio website is actually insane, because the purpose of the portfolio is to show photographs
  759. # [19:51] <Dashiva> At least the strawmen are accessible strawmen :)
  760. # [19:52] <hsivonen> this is a reply to me but I don't understand its point: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008May/0303.html can someone help me understand it?
  761. # [19:53] <Philip`> hsivonen: Not me, I'm afraid
  762. # [19:53] * takkaria adds that posts to his list of reasons top-posting is bad
  763. # [19:53] * Quits: andersca_ (n=andersca@17.255.111.222) ("a")
  764. # [19:53] <hsivonen> what's a 'lambda user'?
  765. # [19:54] <Philip`> takkaria: He could have put his reply at the bottom and it would not have made any more sense
  766. # [19:54] <takkaria> Philip`: no, but as a consequence of not top-posting, people tend to actually reply to points more than just go off on one
  767. # [19:55] <Dashiva> Philip`: The opposite to top-posting isn't bottom-posting, but context-posting
  768. # [19:55] <takkaria> that is, I believe inline quotes make people actually think about what they want to say. :)
  769. # [19:55] <Philip`> Dashiva: That seems an odd definition of "opposite"
  770. # [19:55] <BenMillard> Dashiva, it is the opposite in terms of position but not in terms of usefulness
  771. # [19:55] <Philip`> I'd just say it's one of several alternatives
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  773. # [19:56] <Philip`> (and the non-context-based ones of those alternatives make messages hard to understand)
  774. # [19:56] <Dashiva> Philip`: Well, top-posting is really just outside-posting with the reply put at the bottom by the client as default
  775. # [19:57] <Philip`> Hmm, how about two-column email? Put the original in the left and line up your replies on the right
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  777. # [19:58] <Dashiva> I've tried doing that in lecture notes. Code in one column, and comments to it in the other
  778. # [19:58] <Dashiva> The comment column got really easily out of sync, when a preceding comment linewrapped or similar. Needs quality UI to work :)
  779. # [19:58] * hsivonen now sees the TAG posted the ARIA stuff to the WG
  780. # [19:58] <hsivonen> sigh
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  783. # [19:59] <Dashiva> Philip`: Then again, you are the person who didn't fix Hixie's graph, so surely you can not do it
  784. # [20:01] <Philip`> Dashiva: I'm too busy to not do anything useful now, since I'm waiting to see if an order delivery status will change from "With Delivery Driver" to something more useful before I get bored and go home, and that takes up all my concentration
  785. # [20:02] <Philip`> (The delivery driver has had it for 11 hours now, so I don't see why it's taking them so long...)
  786. # [20:02] <hsivonen> I notice that the "cost/benefit analysis" was not amended to take into account feedback I gave f2f
  787. # [20:03] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: so please take some time to e-mail HT and point that out
  788. # [20:03] <MikeSmith> instead of bitching about it here
  789. # [20:04] <hsivonen> ok. here we go again
  790. # [20:05] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah, I understand. I just don't know what the alternative is
  791. # [20:05] * Joins: starjive (i=beos@213-66-217-32-no30.tbcn.telia.com)
  792. # [20:06] <MikeSmith> what I do know is that the alternative of me communicating to others about it by proxy is not practical alternative
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  794. # [20:15] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: sure. I'm just not particularly happy about finding myself writing email about this again after thinking I already communicated f2f
  795. # [20:16] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  796. # [20:17] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: there are many things these days that I find myself needing to do that I'm not particularly happy about
  797. # [20:18] <Philip`> ("Delivered: 14/05/2008 10:50:45" - oh, thanks for telling me eight hours later)
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  800. # [20:22] <Dashiva> Well, I for one am pleased nobody has pulled the formal complaint thing again.
  801. # [20:22] <Philip`> They probably noticed that it wasn't very effective last time
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  805. # [20:36] * aroben is now known as aroben|away
  806. # [20:37] <Dashiva> Ooh, bad voiceover diss in that mail
  807. # [20:37] <Dashiva> It's too bad AT doesn't compete on who's the best rather than who's the worst :)
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  810. # [20:40] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: email sent
  811. # [20:42] <takkaria> hsivonen: you have a bias against making your own content accessible, did you know?
  812. # [20:43] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: thanks. as always
  813. # [20:43] <hsivonen> takkaria: do I?
  814. # [20:44] <takkaria> hsivonen: according to a reply to your last-but-one post on public-html
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  818. # [20:52] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: do you agree with my <script src> analysis? would it make sense to implement the suggested checks?
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  823. # [21:12] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: hmm, i never understood it as dispatching on qname and ignoring namespace, but rather support both {null, 'aria-foo'} and {...aria namespace..., 'foo'}
  824. # [21:13] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: although he's just been talking about the colon, not how it'd actually be implemented, so it's a bit unclear
  825. # [21:13] <zcorpan_> er
  826. # [21:13] <zcorpan_> s/aria-foo/aria:foo/
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  828. # [21:20] <virtuelv> why can't we have aria*foo or aria _m_O~o_m_foo
  829. # [21:20] <zcorpan_> virtuelv: they are not well-formed in xml, unfortunately
  830. # [21:20] <virtuelv> pity
  831. # [21:20] <zcorpan_> indeed
  832. # [21:21] * aroben|away is now known as aroben
  833. # [21:24] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@58.157.21.205) ("Less talk, more pimp walk.")
  834. # [21:28] <virtuelv> I particularily like _m_O~o_m_
  835. # [21:28] <virtuelv> on an unrelated note: How far is CSS 2.1 from exiting CR state?
  836. # [21:29] <zcorpan_> a couple of thousand test cases away maybe? i don't know what happens with css these days
  837. # [21:29] <virtuelv> (provided we could drop the aural stuff, and say "CSS 3 module" for it
  838. # [21:30] <virtuelv> heh, which is only optional in the spec, I see
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  840. # [21:30] <zcorpan_> speaking of which, i should check the status of the magic body stuff
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  846. # [22:17] <Hixie> what's the law that hsivonen refers to sometimes to the effect that a technology ends up having as many components as working groups?
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  848. # [22:18] <Philip`> Sounds like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway's_Law
  849. # [22:18] <hsivonen> that's it
  850. # [22:19] <Hixie> aha!
  851. # [22:20] <Hixie> it's not in the list of adages on wikipedia
  852. # [22:20] * Hixie adds it
  853. # [22:20] <Philip`> It's in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_adages_named_after_people
  854. # [22:20] <Philip`> Clearly there needs to be a list of lists of adages
  855. # [22:20] <Hixie> heh
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  873. # [23:24] <Dashiva> Pragmatism, the lost art
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  875. # [23:35] <weinig> annevk: ping
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  877. # [23:45] <gsnedders> jgraham__: how do you get what Element.textContent would using lxml?
  878. # [23:48] <hsivonen> following implication arrows in the wrong direction seems to be too common
  879. # [23:48] <jgraham__> gsnedders: Recursion
  880. # [23:48] <gsnedders> jgraham__: k. so there is no simpler way :(
  881. # [23:48] <jgraham__> (or similar)
  882. # [23:49] <jgraham__> gsnedders: I don't know of a simpler way. There might be one I guess
  883. # [23:49] <jgraham__> hsivonen: Gez?
  884. # [23:54] <Dashiva> So much struggle to gain a tiny potential bit of accessibility for conforming documents, at the cost of so many non-conforming documents...
  885. # [23:55] <gsnedders> jgraham__: OK, I give in. lxml is quick enough :)
  886. # [23:56] <Philip`> gsnedders: If it's quick enough, your data set is too small
  887. # [23:56] * Joins: andersca_ (n=andersca@17.255.111.222)
  888. # [23:56] <gsnedders> Philip`: I'm just operating on a couple month old copy of HTML 5
  889. # [23:56] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@17.255.110.250)
  890. # [23:56] <gsnedders> Philip`: And I doubt anything larger will be using it
  891. # [23:57] * Joins: weinig__ (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-3aaa2d0b096d7357)
  892. # [23:57] <hsivonen> jgraham__: among others
  893. # [23:58] <Philip`> gsnedders: What about HTML6?
  894. # [23:58] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-81efeb9ebc02e0bf)
  895. # [23:58] * gsnedders wonders whether implementing DOM on top of lxml would be sane
  896. # [23:58] <Philip`> Given the way HTML5 is developed, the spec can never get smaller, because that would involve being less precise or dropping features
  897. # [23:59] <Philip`> so you need to be sufficiently forward-looking when developing tools
  898. # [23:59] <takkaria> Philip`: unless Hixie gets cloned and he can split out bits HTML5 into another spec, whilst still editing it all
  899. # [23:59] <Philip`> else you'll get the same problem that the W3C tools get when trying to process the HTML5 spec
  900. # [23:59] <zcorpan_> Philip`: it could drop non-normative stuff without being less precise or dropping features
  901. # [23:59] <takkaria> it's a possibility, anyway
  902. # Session Close: Thu May 15 00:00:00 2008

The end :)