/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-05-16 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri May 16 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  16. # [02:02] <aruner> Hixie, what's the history of the blocked header list in XHR in the spec.? How was that list arrived at?
  17. # [02:02] <Hixie> bjoern sent a detailed reply regarding this recently
  18. # [02:03] <Hixie> in other news i am especially amused that sunava just delayed another MONTH
  19. # [02:03] * aruner kicks his mail client for retrieving messages slowly
  20. # [02:04] <Dashiva> Hixie: But otherwise it's going well. She's quoting properly, at least
  21. # [02:04] <Hixie> aruner: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapi/2008May/0189.html
  22. # [02:04] <Hixie> Dashiva: i believe sunava is a he, am i wrong?
  23. # [02:05] <Hixie> annevk: yt?
  24. # [02:05] <Dashiva> I'm just guessing, so you're probably right
  25. # [02:05] * aruner sighs. Though I *do* think that their general design principles are good (be conservative, err on the side of ultra safe) I think specifics help us understand their notions on threat modeling.
  26. # [02:05] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.105.79) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  27. # [02:06] <Dashiva> Flickr seems to support you
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  29. # [02:06] <Hixie> aruner: their design principles resulted in xdr, which has at least three known security bugs, so... :-)
  30. # [02:07] * aruner grins
  31. # [02:08] <aruner> Dashiva: Sunava Dutta is a he
  32. # [02:08] <Dashiva> He and anne should make a club
  33. # [02:08] <Hixie> i live in the bay area
  34. # [02:09] <Hixie> i don't make any judgements regarding gender
  35. # [02:09] <aruner> Hixie: are you putting in an appearance at the F2F in Redmond? I'm not sure.
  36. # [02:09] <Hixie> as it's not uncommon for people to change gender...
  37. # [02:09] <Hixie> aruner: i'd like the spec to be done by then.
  38. # [02:09] <Hixie> aruner: in which case i won't turn up
  39. # [02:09] <Dashiva> I try to use she for females because some get insulted by 'he' as gender-neutral
  40. # [02:09] <Hixie> aruner: we'll see nearer the time
  41. # [02:09] <Philip`> You can make a pretty good guess at someone's gender based solely on the fact that they're posting to a web specification mailing list
  42. # [02:10] <Hixie> sad but true
  43. # [02:10] <Dashiva> That's asking for a beatdown, Philip` ;)
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  54. # [03:29] <Hixie> so i wonder how to define sandboxes
  55. # [03:30] <Hixie> such that if you have document A with iframe containing document B with iframe containing document C
  56. # [03:30] <Hixie> that:
  57. # [03:31] <Hixie> 1. if A, B, and C are from the same origin, B can't play with C
  58. # [03:31] <Hixie> hm wait
  59. # [03:31] <Hixie> i was going to say that if B and C have hte same origin but aren't the same as A they should be able to talk
  60. # [03:31] <Hixie> but no, that would still allow problems
  61. # [03:31] <Hixie> so we really do want unique origins...
  62. # [03:31] <Hixie> hmm
  63. # [03:31] <Hixie> that makes it easier
  64. # [03:32] <Hixie> HMM.
  65. # [03:32] * Hixie ponders
  66. # [03:34] <othermaciej> so I assume you are thinking sandboxes that still have script enabled?
  67. # [03:34] <othermaciej> (since for noscript iframes this would not matter)
  68. # [03:35] <othermaciej> maybe I should step back and ask what use cases you are targetting
  69. # [03:35] <Hixie> actually same-origin matters even without scripts
  70. # [03:35] <Hixie> a bunch of things use the origin concept
  71. # [03:35] <Hixie> but yes, i am considering scripts too
  72. # [03:35] <othermaciej> like frame targetting?
  73. # [03:35] <Hixie> yeah, that sometimes uses origin
  74. # [03:35] <othermaciej> I think the desired restrictions depend on the use cases
  75. # [03:35] <othermaciej> ones I can imagine:
  76. # [03:36] <othermaciej> - blog comments
  77. # [03:36] <othermaciej> - user-authored content in a profile on a social network site
  78. # [03:36] <othermaciej> - "widgets" embedded from off-site
  79. # [03:36] <othermaciej> - "widgets" hosted by the provider of the page containing them
  80. # [03:36] <othermaciej> - ads
  81. # [03:37] <Hixie> comments and other user-contributed content, gadgets (same site and other site; including ads), and (not sandboxing but still <iframe> related) client-side includes are the main ones
  82. # [03:37] <othermaciej> ads are complicated because at least some ad networks consider it important to support frameless flash ads that overlay the content
  83. # [03:37] <othermaciej> but anything that can overlay the content is not properly sandboxed by definition
  84. # [03:38] <Hixie> there are indeed various scenarios with varying levels of sandboxing
  85. # [03:38] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/sandbox has my current strawman proposal (cut and pasted from the start of the e-mail i'm writing; note that i've used past tense because it'll be past tense once i send the mail, but the spec isn't actually updated yet)
  86. # [03:38] <othermaciej> for comments you would like them to be able to size naturally and seem to be inline as far as the end-user is concerned, but they should not be able to css position outside their area
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  88. # [03:40] <Hixie> yeah the comments would be <iframe sandbox="unrestricted-origin" seamless src="data:text/html,(small html document)"></iframe>
  89. # [03:41] <othermaciej> I'm thinking about whether inheriting styles and applying outer stylesheets may be a security risk
  90. # [03:41] <Hixie> in certain cases it is
  91. # [03:41] <Hixie> in others not so much
  92. # [03:41] <Hixie> i can't see how it could be in a script-limited blog comment case
  93. # [03:42] <othermaciej> I'm thinking for the comment use case and the user-generated content on hosted profile page use case
  94. # [03:42] <Hixie> oh i have to disble forms too while i'm at it
  95. # [03:42] <othermaciej> and also plugins probably
  96. # [03:42] <Hixie> yeah
  97. # [03:42] <othermaciej> (including Java)
  98. # [03:43] <Hixie> updated sandbox file
  99. # [03:43] <othermaciej> I am nervous about the performance impact of using an iframe per comment with hundreds of comments
  100. # [03:43] <Hixie> yeah me too
  101. # [03:43] <Hixie> i'm not sure what else to do though
  102. # [03:44] <othermaciej> navigating the parent should be restricted (dunno if that falls out of other things), including back/forward
  103. # [03:44] <othermaciej> window sizing and positioning should be restricted
  104. # [03:45] <Hixie> any browsing context navigation outside the sandbox is blocked
  105. # [03:45] <othermaciej> does embedding further subframes in the content need to be restricted?
  106. # [03:45] <Hixie> though that does mean that links in comments won't work
  107. # [03:46] <othermaciej> or do they just inherit the sandbox restrictions already in effect?
  108. # [03:46] <Hixie> i don't see why it should be, but they certainly are also sandboxed
  109. # [03:46] <Hixie> and they're not in the same sandbox, either
  110. # [03:47] <othermaciej> links in blog comments not working is kind of a bummer
  111. # [03:47] <othermaciej> perhaps there should be a way to turn that on, since it can't be used as an annoyance in the noscript case
  112. # [03:47] <Hixie> yeah
  113. # [03:48] <Hixie> comments would now be <iframe sandbox="unrestricted-origin force-links-to-parent" seamless src="data:text/html,(small html document)"></iframe>
  114. # [03:48] <Hixie> it's getting long
  115. # [03:49] <othermaciej> the keywords are a bit verbose
  116. # [03:49] <Hixie> it's a security thing, i'm worried about making them too simple
  117. # [03:49] <Hixie> i'm especially worried about making them sound like they _increase_ security
  118. # [03:49] <Hixie> when all the keywords decrease it somewhow
  119. # [03:49] <othermaciej> perhaps there should be two addtributes
  120. # [03:50] <othermaciej> sandbox="" or restrict="" that turns everything off, and an allow="" attribute to turn things back on selectively
  121. # [03:50] <othermaciej> or sandbox-exceptions=""
  122. # [03:51] <Hixie> well "force-links-to-parent" isn't really an exception or a restriction, it just changes the rules to send all user-activated links to the parent browsing context
  123. # [03:51] <othermaciej> you could achieve that with <base target="parent"> and allowing targetted links to parent only
  124. # [03:51] <othermaciej> a bit more work but makes it strictly an exception, not a behavior change
  125. # [03:51] <Hixie> (<iframe seamless sandbox allow="..." src="data:text/html,(small html document)"></iframe> makes sense, but i'm not sure what the keywords would be)
  126. # [03:52] <othermaciej> though if it is not a restriction or an exception perhaps it should be a separate attribute like seamless
  127. # [03:52] <Hixie> well the idea is that you can allow whatever random content in the sandbox as you want
  128. # [03:52] <Hixie> so i'm not sure i want to be poking <base> into it
  129. # [03:52] <Hixie> ooo
  130. # [03:52] <Hixie> wait!
  131. # [03:52] <Hixie> it can just be part of seamless' behaviour!
  132. # [03:52] <othermaciej> for the comment use case presumably the data: URL is generated by software and the user's comment does not have <html> or <body>?
  133. # [03:52] <othermaciej> oh interesting
  134. # [03:53] <Hixie> comments would now be <iframe sandbox="unrestricted-origin" seamless src="data:text/html,(small html document)"></iframe> again
  135. # [03:53] <othermaciej> is it ever useful to allow gadgets to navigate the parent or open a window?
  136. # [03:53] <Hixie> probably, but i want to start with as small a set of allowed behaviours as possible
  137. # [03:59] <othermaciej> I guess for gadgets, anything forbidden can be selectively exposed via postMessage
  138. # [03:59] <Hixie> eah
  139. # [03:59] <Hixie> y
  140. # [04:01] <Hixie> maybe seamless should base its origin determination on the "real" origin, not the origin affected by sandbox=""
  141. # [04:01] <othermaciej> Hixie: i think the seamless navigation rule should only apply to navigations triggered by the content of the iframe
  142. # [04:01] <Hixie> as opposed to what?
  143. # [04:01] <othermaciej> Hixie: if the parent doc navigates a seamless iframe it should not navigate itself
  144. # [04:01] <Hixie> hm, that makes things more complex
  145. # [04:01] <Hixie> why would you use target="" on a seamless iframe?
  146. # [04:01] <Hixie> why not just change .data?
  147. # [04:01] <Hixie> or .src
  148. # [04:02] <Hixie> or whatever
  149. # [04:02] <othermaciej> changing .src is a navigation
  150. # [04:02] <Hixie> not per spec
  151. # [04:02] <Hixie> oh actually it is
  152. # [04:02] <Hixie> nevermind
  153. # [04:02] <Hixie> i'm thinking of <object>
  154. # [04:02] <othermaciej> well put it this way, changing iframe.src, changing iframe.contentWindow.location, and targetted link aimed at iframe all go at the same code path
  155. # [04:02] <othermaciej> at least in WebKit
  156. # [04:03] <Hixie> yeah
  157. # [04:03] <Hixie> spec too
  158. # [04:03] <Hixie> ok
  159. # [04:03] <Hixie> well
  160. # [04:03] <Hixie> i could just do it for <a> links
  161. # [04:03] <othermaciej> knowing the source frame of a navigation is not a big deal
  162. # [04:03] <Hixie> i guess
  163. # [04:03] <othermaciej> we always have to know anyway
  164. # [04:03] <Hixie> though what do you call the source if someone from another iframe clicks a link using .click() ?
  165. # [04:04] <Hixie> or what if frame A calls .click() on a link in frame B which has a target="" to A, which is seamless?
  166. # [04:04] <othermaciej> I would say only cases where the source frame is the seamless frame itself should get retargetted
  167. # [04:05] <Hixie> sure but what is the source frame in that example?
  168. # [04:06] <othermaciej> I don't know in general what a cross-frame click() call on a link considers the source frame
  169. # [04:06] <othermaciej> presumably something has to define which it is in any case
  170. # [04:07] <othermaciej> I don't think it matters which is chosen from security POV
  171. # [04:07] <othermaciej> since A has to have unrestricted origin in your scenario and thus could just modify B to do something bad
  172. # [04:09] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@58.157.21.205) ("Less talk, more pimp walk.")
  173. # [04:09] <Hixie> well i've never had to define it before now :-)
  174. # [04:09] <Hixie> but i agree it doesn't really matter much
  175. # [04:09] <Hixie> so long as it is defined
  176. # [04:10] <Hixie> i guess i'll just add an "argument" to the "navigate" algorithm and make all the call sites say what the source is
  177. # [04:12] * mcarter__ is now known as mcarter
  178. # [04:12] * Hixie defines the term "source browsing context"
  179. # [04:12] <Hixie> (better terms welcome)
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  181. # [04:13] <Hixie> hm, this causes <meta http-equiv=refresh> inside a seamless iframe to navigate the parent iframe
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  183. # [04:14] <Hixie> oh hey, we do need this, to define .referer better
  184. # [04:14] <Hixie> :-)
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  197. # [06:02] <MikeSmith> Hixie: why's the body element included in the "Obsolete elements, attributes, and APIs" section?
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  214. # [09:28] <othermaciej> hey web expert people
  215. # [09:29] <othermaciej> is there any way in Firefox to do the equivalent of either word-wrap: break-word (breaks lines in the middle of long words that would overflow the box) or text-overflow: ellipsis (ellipsizes lines that are too long)?
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  218. # [09:36] <jwalden> othermaciej: 3 you could use &shy; or the Unicode codepoint, I suspect
  219. # [09:36] <othermaciej> jwalden: between every character?
  220. # [09:36] <jwalden> wait
  221. # [09:36] <jwalden> that's what that does?
  222. # [09:36] <othermaciej> someone was asking me how to handle a long word in a fixed-width box gracefully
  223. # [09:37] <jwalden> "gracefully"
  224. # [09:37] <othermaciej> (url to be specific)
  225. # [09:37] <othermaciej> overflow: visible makes it stick out of the box
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  227. # [09:37] * tndH_ is now known as tndH
  228. # [09:37] <othermaciej> overflow: hidden silently truncates
  229. # [09:37] <othermaciej> overflow: scroll adds a scrollbar
  230. # [09:37] <jwalden> last I recall we were breaking URLs, actually; that may have changed
  231. # [09:37] <othermaciej> I suggested word-wrap break-word to wrap the word in the middle of the box
  232. # [09:37] <othermaciej> or text-overflow: ellipsis to truncate but with an ellipsis at the end
  233. # [09:38] <othermaciej> neither of those work in FF though
  234. # [09:38] <jwalden> I'd do &shy; at the / boundaries myself
  235. # [09:39] <jwalden> I don't remember anything particular that would work
  236. # [09:39] <othermaciej> (I just used a long word instead of a URL as my test case though so I could not tell if there was magical URL breaking, but I assume no or they would not have complained of this bug)
  237. # [09:40] <jwalden> so data:text/html,%3Cdiv%20style=%22width:%2010em;%20border:%201px%20dotted%20green;%22%3Ehttp://localhost:8888/tests/browser/microformats/test/test_Microformats_hCard.html%3C/div%3E does wrapping for me in 3+ source code, I think 3 does the same
  238. # [09:40] <roc> <wbr> or a zero-width unicode space?
  239. # [09:41] <roc> there is magical URL breaking in Firefox 3
  240. # [09:41] <othermaciej> I was testing with an FF3 beta but possibly an old one
  241. # [09:41] <roc> although it's not terribly magical, it works pretty well
  242. # [09:42] <othermaciej> I think it it desired for this to work for non-URL overflow too or overflow of a single url component (the column in question is not very wide)
  243. # [09:43] <othermaciej> and not sure that putting &shy; or <wbr> or zero-width space between every single character will fly
  244. # [09:43] <othermaciej> but I guess I can pass it along
  245. # [09:43] <roc> it doesn't have to be every single character, I guess
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  248. # [09:48] <othermaciej> (both the things I mentioned work in IE as well as Safari fwiw, might be worth adding one or both to Gecko at some point)
  249. # [09:48] <roc> yeah, I should implement word-break
  250. # [09:48] <roc> text-overflow is totally underspecified
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  252. # [09:49] <roc> and Webkit, at least, does weird things with it sometimes. Probably IE too although i test with IE less
  253. # [09:49] <othermaciej> word-wrap: break-word != word-break
  254. # [09:49] <roc> oh right
  255. # [09:50] <othermaciej> it is handy though cause it does what you expect in an editable area when your line is too long and is all one word (or at least what I expect)
  256. # [09:50] <roc> "Shaping characters are still shaped as if the word were not broken" ... that is weird
  257. # [09:50] <othermaciej> yeah, you would want arabic chars to still take medial form
  258. # [09:50] <othermaciej> not terminal or initial
  259. # [09:50] <roc> I guess that's the easy to implement way
  260. # [09:51] <othermaciej> it also seems like the correct way (at least for Arabic)
  261. # [09:51] <roc> but not for optional ligatures
  262. # [09:51] <othermaciej> presumably you can't break mid-ligature
  263. # [09:51] <roc> why not?
  264. # [09:51] <othermaciej> because it is one glyph
  265. # [09:51] <othermaciej> I mean
  266. # [09:51] <othermaciej> you could break between the chars
  267. # [09:51] <othermaciej> but the glyph is on one line or the next
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  269. # [09:52] <roc> you can cut it in half
  270. # [09:52] <roc> we have to do that for selection and ligatures that cross span boundaries with different styles
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  272. # [09:55] <othermaciej> if you can tell the difference between things that are ligature-like and things that are like Arabic I think you would be in your rights to undo the ligature, but I think breaking on one side of the glyph or the other should do, as perfecting the breakpoint when you already broke in the middle of a word seems less than essential
  273. # [09:55] <roc> right
  274. # [09:55] <roc> that's what I'd do
  275. # [09:55] <annevk> Hixie, am now
  276. # [09:56] * annevk reads up on the sandbox discussion in the backlog
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  287. # [10:24] <annevk> MikeSmith, I think it's there to define obsolete parts of the body element
  288. # [10:32] <MikeSmith> annevk: OK
  289. # [10:36] <annevk> I think it's confusing
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  296. # [11:09] <MikeSmith> annevk: for the publication-notes doc, I wrote a short context description of that section as "contains descriptions of the obsoleted applet element and obsolete parts of DOM interface for the body element."
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  305. # [11:27] <MikeSmith> so the table in section 8.6, "Named character references" was removed completely
  306. # [11:27] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#named
  307. # [11:27] <MikeSmith> wondering if we want to published without that
  308. # [11:27] <MikeSmith> if so, a note should probably be added there
  309. # [11:28] <annevk> that seems like a bug in the W3C script
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  311. # [11:28] <MikeSmith> ah
  312. # [11:29] <MikeSmith> so still something that'll need to get fixed before we publish
  313. # [11:29] <othermaciej> annevk: I think Hixie's sandbox proposal is converging (at least I mostly liked the last thing I saw before I left work)
  314. # [11:30] <othermaciej> annevk: I fear the idea of using an iframe per comment will just not fly performance-wise (even with data: URLs)
  315. # [11:30] <annevk> yeah, it's such a hack
  316. # [11:30] <annevk> i doubt people will use it over better sandboxing on the server using real html5 parsers and tools
  317. # [11:31] <othermaciej> but you do need visual sandboxing I think (not let the content to overflow) as well as script, though I guess overflow: hidden does that
  318. # [11:31] <othermaciej> (does overflow: hidden hide relative, absolute or fixed position children that stick out?)
  319. # [11:31] <othermaciej> annevk: his design seems ok for gadgets/widgets embedded in web pages
  320. # [11:31] <othermaciej> or ads
  321. # [11:32] <othermaciej> not sure it flies for other use cases
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  326. # [11:53] <hsivonen> Does Safari 3.1 support closed captiong for video?
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  328. # [11:59] <hsivonen> othermaciej: Does Safari 3.1 support closed captiong for video?
  329. # [11:59] <othermaciej> oddly someone just asked me that
  330. # [11:59] <othermaciej> I have not tested
  331. # [11:59] <hsivonen> ok. thanks
  332. # [11:59] <othermaciej> I do not know how you turn it on in QuickTime
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  336. # [12:13] <annevk> oh lol
  337. # [12:14] <annevk> Robert Burns is joining the ARIA discussion
  338. # [12:14] <annevk> guess I'm now more than done with that :)
  339. # [12:15] * hendry wonders if there is a resource describing each test in Acid3 or perhaps some sort of source control access. best i've found is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid3
  340. # [12:16] <othermaciej> oh no, Robert Burns
  341. # [12:16] <othermaciej> is there any clusterfuck of a discussion that he can't make worse?
  342. # [12:18] <hsivonen> sigh
  343. # [12:18] <Dashiva> hendry: You mean to show what spec part they test?
  344. # [12:18] <annevk> i wonder if i should reply
  345. # [12:19] <annevk> he's totally wrong, but i know that when i point that out he finds some way to turn the argument around
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  349. # [12:21] <Dashiva> annevk: I suppose the question is if anyone else listens to him, and needs clarification :)
  350. # [12:21] <annevk> yeah, deleted the e-mail
  351. # [12:21] <othermaciej> " In my view the null namespace should not exist in a namespaced document processed by a namespace aware application. Instead unprefixed attributes should be attached to the same namespace as their parent elements."
  352. # [12:22] <hsivonen> he is not wrong about XMLNS having a design bug
  353. # [12:22] <hsivonen> it's just a bug that is too late to fix
  354. # [12:22] <othermaciej> he seems to think namespaces already work this way
  355. # [12:23] <hsivonen> many namespace advocates do
  356. # [12:23] <othermaciej> also seems to think adding namespaces (with : syntax) in HTML5 would solve anything with regards to compat issues with the proposal
  357. # [12:25] <annevk> the whole point about ARIA is that it doesn't require architectural changes
  358. # [12:25] <annevk> so arguing we first need to make architectural changes misses the point
  359. # [12:26] <annevk> but pointing that out to Robert Burns doesn't work based on past experience
  360. # [12:26] <hsivonen> I have to go buy a new display with a powered USB hub right now.
  361. # [12:26] <hsivonen> I need 3 USB devices to get work done and the MacBook can power only 2
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  363. # [12:28] <othermaciej> however Robert Burns does have the ability to increase confusion of third parties to the discussion if not corrected
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  415. # [16:05] <hsivonen> (I got an Apple display. thanks for the recommendations)
  416. # [16:12] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008May/att-0022/2008-05-14.html#topic3 "Steven Pemberton: There was a huge amount of RDFa."
  417. # [16:12] <annevk> (over XTech)
  418. # [16:13] <hsivonen> annevk: different room, different amount of RDFa, I guess
  419. # [16:14] <annevk> Not sure what's happening to the Forms Task Force
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  423. # [16:15] <annevk> Also seems they continue with copying HTML features. It seems though that they try to copy from the HTML4 specification rather than from implementations...
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  425. # [16:18] <hendry> Dashiva: er, OK (sorry missed this IRC window somehow)
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  455. # [17:09] <Philip`> http://doctype.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/tests/html/elements/plaintext-element-appears-in-dom-test.html - that's not quite right :-(
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  483. # [18:07] <JJ08> Are there currently any problems with the <video> element in safari?
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  486. # [18:08] <JJ08> i can get it to show the player but the .mpg wont play. Also the poster image covers the play controls sometimes.
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  753. # [20:22] * virtuelv curses at Google's newfound love for not making websites work in browsers instead of named product
  754. # [20:22] <virtuelv> +s
  755. # [20:22] <JJ08> lol. Sounds like your enjoying yourself
  756. # [20:23] <virtuelv> not at all
  757. # [20:23] <virtuelv> http://www.google.com/translate_t
  758. # [20:24] <virtuelv> they have opted for creating a rather ugly, custom widget instead of a standard <select>
  759. # [20:24] <virtuelv> continuing down that path, they might just as well create their own runtime, only viewable with the google client, on the google os
  760. # [20:24] <MikeSmith> the docreader thing looks like of a like a frankenstein monster that escaped from the lab and now out terrorizing the villagers
  761. # [20:25] <virtuelv> running on Google hardware
  762. # [20:25] <virtuelv> MikeSmith: yeah, and now they ruined translate as well
  763. # [20:25] <virtuelv> http://www.google.com/translate_t
  764. # [20:25] <JJ08> lol.
  765. # [20:25] <JJ08> i see what you mean now.
  766. # [20:25] <virtuelv> what's the use of standards when everything gets replaced with JavaScript that barely works anywhere
  767. # [20:25] <JJ08> its not very "standard" at all.
  768. # [20:26] <JJ08> oh, see you beat me to it
  769. # [20:26] <JJ08> and at my college Javascript is disabled .... so that goes to pot
  770. # [20:26] <takkaria> it's that bloody google web toolkit thing
  771. # [20:26] <virtuelv> if you turn off js, it sort of works
  772. # [20:27] <virtuelv> Sincerely, GWT should die
  773. # [20:27] <JJ08> there turning into Apple (even though i just spent over £1000 on one)
  774. # [20:27] <JJ08> tightly controlling everything they own
  775. # [20:28] * Joins: maikmerten_ (n=maikmert@Lba26.l.pppool.de)
  776. # [20:29] <JJ08> googles source code is just one big line. They forgot to use "/n". lol
  777. # [20:29] <virtuelv> a single character costs google
  778. # [20:30] <virtuelv> removing redundant whitespace is IMHO acceptable for stuff that's production code, and has undergone proper QA
  779. # [20:30] * Parts: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) ("ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)")
  780. # [20:30] <JJ08> i suppose if you put it like that.
  781. # [20:31] <Lachy> jgraham__, we're presenting on day 1 http://www.vivabit.com/atmedia2008/london/schedule/
  782. # [20:32] <Lachy> assuming the schedule doesn't change again between now and then
  783. # [20:32] <virtuelv> <DIV class="goog-inline-block goog-menu-button-caption" unselectable="on">Spanish</DIV>
  784. # [20:32] <JJ08> i wanted to go to @media. I had all the cash sorted then i had to move house! Bummer, well pissed off i was
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  788. # [20:46] <Dashiva> When this is all over, we'll have to make medals for the people who risked mind and sanity in the alt wars
  789. # [20:54] <smedero> Dashiva: That or we'll all lose our minds and start implementing Dmitry Turin's HTML 6.
  790. # [20:54] <Dashiva> I don't see how that'll be much worse than our current heading
  791. # [20:54] * Dashiva mumbles
  792. # [20:55] <smedero> I kinda wish he would email the list now with how he intends to support alt on his new picture input type: http://html6.by.ru/site/html60/en/author/inputpic_eng.htm
  793. # [20:55] <smedero> oh, i'm just being cruel now.
  794. # [20:55] <smedero> :(
  795. # [20:56] <JJ08> wtf is HTML 6?
  796. # [20:58] <virtuelv> JJ08: Dmitry Turin's private proposal for next-generation HTML
  797. # [20:58] <virtuelv> I'm amazed at how much people here actually know about it
  798. # [20:58] <virtuelv> http://html6.by.ru/site/html60/en/author/label_eng.htm
  799. # [20:59] <JJ08> i am taking this as a joke. This looks idiotic
  800. # [20:59] <virtuelv> <style>
  801. # [20:59] <virtuelv> form { next: execute }
  802. # [20:59] <virtuelv> </style>
  803. # [20:59] <virtuelv> <body>
  804. # [20:59] <virtuelv> <form action="program.exe">
  805. # [20:59] <smedero> You can also see his musings on SQL 5: http://sql50.euro.ru/site/sql50/en/author/index_eng.htm
  806. # [20:59] <virtuelv> </body>
  807. # [20:59] <virtuelv> Value next=execute orders to execute received information in local operational system (mainly value next=execute is intended for those cases, when form's address specifies into local file system).
  808. # [20:59] <JJ08> what the hell is this: <a href="./c.htm#:body/h2[@@~"part of header"]+h3[5]"> text </a>
  809. # [20:59] <virtuelv> http://html6.by.ru/site/html60/en/author/transfer_eng.htm
  810. # [20:59] <JJ08> is this some random guy that has set this uo?
  811. # [20:59] <JJ08> *up
  812. # [21:00] <smedero> Dmitry pops into various standards related mailing list from time to time and proposes one of his concepts.
  813. # [21:00] <JJ08> have any actually been used?
  814. # [21:00] <smedero> not that I know of, no.
  815. # [21:01] <JJ08> he looks serious about what he is trying to preach.
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  817. # [21:01] <smedero> to be fair to Dmity, he at least provides examples and occasionally use cases.
  818. # [21:01] <smedero> however insane they may be
  819. # [21:02] <virtuelv> actually, I have seen a user-js implementation of his XPath-links
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  821. # [21:05] <virtuelv> and the idea itself, for being able to link into specific locations of a document that doesn't have relevant anchors or id's has merit
  822. # [21:07] <JJ08> Maybe he will come up with something beneficial. I'll give him credit because he provides examples and is obviously working on ways to improve. Its more than what im doing.
  823. # [21:07] <Dashiva> It's not that his ideas necessarily are bad, but most of them are too different from everything we already have to fit in
  824. # [21:08] <Dashiva> He seems like he really likes stream processing, maybe we could get him to work on event-source :)
  825. # [21:09] <JJ08> but how can someone be considered credible if he isn't considering 'standards'. His source code is evidence to that.
  826. # [21:09] <Lachy> Hixie, yt?
  827. # [21:09] <Dashiva> JJ08: Well, our alt advocate friends are carrying that banner high themselves, so why can't Dmitry? :)
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  830. # [21:11] <JJ08> any links to these 'friends' ? I know your telling the truth, id like to see thats all
  831. # [21:12] <jgraham__> Lachy: Yeah, they moved the progrmme around a lot at the same time. I wonder if Steve Faulkner will be around on Day 1
  832. # [21:12] <jgraham__> s/at the same time/ at the same time as scheduling us/
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  834. # [21:13] <Dashiva> JJ08: If you can teach me how to search message contents in thunderbird, I'd probably find it.
  835. # [21:13] <takkaria> Dashiva: top right-hand corner search box, click on the magnifying glass, select "entire message"
  836. # [21:14] <Dashiva> Oh, swell
  837. # [21:14] <Dashiva> ... but it seems it gladly hits the server instead of using the local copy.
  838. # [21:14] <takkaria> you using IMAP?
  839. # [21:14] <Dashiva> Yes
  840. # [21:14] <JJ08> lol, i cant :( So what your saying is that these people who are involved in the development of HTML 5 are not even following standards?
  841. # [21:14] <smedero> the public-html archive search works fairly well: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/
  842. # [21:15] <Dashiva> JJ08: No, not like that
  843. # [21:15] <takkaria> Dashiva: IMAP has a built-in search command, so Tb uses that by default
  844. # [21:15] <Dashiva> Just that even advocates sometimes fail to go the extra mile in every single thing
  845. # [21:15] <JJ08> sorry. I get you now.
  846. # [21:15] <Lachy> jgraham__, yeah, Steve should be around.
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  876. # [22:20] <Lachy> My podcast for boagworld.com that I recorded yesterday will most likely appear around the 4th of June
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  883. # [22:50] <mcarter> good afternoon
  884. # [22:51] <mcarter> Hixie, I don't suppose you ever wrote that TCPConnection server perl script for your train set that I can test my implementation against?
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  898. # Session Close: Sat May 17 00:00:00 2008

The end :)