/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-05-17 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat May 17 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:13] * Joins: syp_ (n=syp@lasigpc9.epfl.ch)
  4. # [00:35] <virtuelv> http://www.regdeveloper.co.uk/2008/05/16/html5_xhtml_vendors_lockin/
  5. # [00:38] <Lachy> The article says: "For sophisticated cross-platform applications, there already exist several proprietary solutions (such as Mozilla's XUL, Adobe's Flash, or Microsoft's Silverlight)," the group said.
  6. # [00:38] <Lachy> Who in the group said that?
  7. # [00:38] <takkaria> that seems like a very confused bit of reporting
  8. # [00:38] <Hixie> the spec says that
  9. # [00:39] <Hixie> so much for the spec not being a position paper. :-D
  10. # [00:39] <Hixie> hahahahaha
  11. # [00:40] <Hixie> i love the picture of chris wilson with a caption "Microsoft's Wilson: modular HTML 5"
  12. # [00:40] <Hixie> that's hilarious
  13. # [00:44] <Dashiva> The picture reminds me of those british judges with wigs
  14. # [00:44] <Dashiva> Poor Chris
  15. # [00:45] <Lachy> LOL
  16. # [00:47] <takkaria> the IBM article that links to I haven't read before
  17. # [00:47] <takkaria> has some good lines
  18. # [00:47] <takkaria> "The HTML V5 specification was written using good communication with browser vendors ... The team is sceptical about official W3C approval, though. The FAQ doesn't even try to give a serious answer about the expected date of approval."
  19. # [00:48] <Lachy> IIRC, that IBM article wasn't very good
  20. # [00:48] <takkaria> it's not, no
  21. # [00:49] <Lachy> wow. I wrote that FAQ, and I certainly did try to give a very serious answer to that question
  22. # [00:50] <Hixie> i thought the answer in the faq was pretty accurate
  23. # [00:50] <Lachy> though, saying 15 years generally doesn't go down well with people and it works better if you emphasise that features can be used as soon as browsers implement them, rather than waiting for the finished spec
  24. # [00:51] <Hixie> it took us 18 years to get where we are now
  25. # [00:51] <Lachy> that's what I did in the podcast yesterday, and the host responded quite well to that answer
  26. # [00:51] <Hixie> and html5 is specifying all of that and enough to take us forward
  27. # [00:51] <Hixie> and they think 15 years to get two perfect implementations is too long? :-)
  28. # [00:51] <Hixie> some people have issues
  29. # [00:52] <roc> I've started having terrifying thoughts that I'm going to be working on Web browsers for the rest of my life
  30. # [00:53] <Lachy> re the modularisation, they fail to realise that there may be a lot to write specs for, but there's too few editors to do it.
  31. # [00:53] <Hixie> roc: why is working on the cutting edge of one of humanity's biggest achievements terrifying? :-)
  32. # [00:53] <Hixie> Lachy: who is "they"?
  33. # [00:54] <roc> I bet Pharoah said the same thing to the slaves building his pyramids
  34. # [00:54] <Lachy> the people who are pushing for splitting the spec up into modules
  35. # [00:54] <Lachy> chris wilson, included
  36. # [00:54] <Hixie> roc: :_P
  37. # [00:55] <Hixie> roc: i heard from a student who attended the talk you gave at stanford btw, remind me to slip you a fiver when we next meet :-)
  38. # [00:55] <roc> ooh, which one?
  39. # [00:55] <Lachy> oh, at least MikeSmith does: So for now, nothing changes as far as the W3C is concerned. Smith noted that while modularization of specification is a good idea in principle, the consortium needs a commitment from one or more member organizations to take over a part of the specification. “We don’t have that; nobody has stepped up,” he said.
  40. # [00:55] <Lachy> http://www.sdtimes.com/content/article.aspx?ArticleID=32067 (2nd last paragraph)
  41. # [00:55] <Hixie> roc: you gave more than one?
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  43. # [00:55] <roc> no, which student?
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  45. # [00:55] <Hixie> oh
  46. # [00:55] <Hixie> andy
  47. # [00:55] <Hixie> works on indexing at google
  48. # [00:56] <Hixie> andy hochhaus
  49. # [00:56] <roc> ok, don't know him
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  68. # [02:22] <mcarter> Hixie, whats the rationale behind the framing of each payload in the TCPConnection spec?
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  93. # [07:15] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  94. # [07:15] * Set by gsnedders on Tue Dec 18 21:41:19
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  134. # [11:05] <zcorpan_> hmm, perhaps the offline-webapps should expand a bit what the difference is between localStorage["status"] = "Idling."; and window["status"] = "Idling.";
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  166. # [13:28] * Dashiva wonders if anyone has been offended yet
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  170. # [13:40] <takkaria> Dashiva: what by?
  171. # [13:45] <Dashiva> 'primary'
  172. # [13:45] <jgraham__> By hsivonen suggesting that cameras are mainly designed to take pictures, you mean?
  173. # [13:45] <Dashiva> Yes. The nerve!
  174. # [13:49] <takkaria> I'm glad someone finally said it, Rob scared me off from replying to the alt thread again
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  179. # [13:51] <Dashiva> takkaria: It was brought up once before, and it got some pretty nasty replies
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  183. # [14:52] <hsivonen> sometimes the alt thread makes me wonder if I'm suffering from metacognitive miscalibration
  184. # [14:52] <hsivonen> I take the comments above as indication that I might not be. thanks
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  188. # [14:58] <MikeSmith> I see mention of "fast-path DOM" at http://wiki.mozilla.org/Mozilla_2/Work_List
  189. # [14:59] <MikeSmith> wondering just what that might mean
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  192. # [15:44] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Judging by e.g. http://markmail.org/message/sudwtkjlsrkf47zx it seems to be about optimising the JS-DOM interface by avoiding the XPCOM overhead
  193. # [15:45] <MikeSmith> Philip`: cool, thanks for the pointer
  194. # [15:52] <hsivonen> I think I've now said all I have to say about alt
  195. # [15:53] <hsivonen> now I'm just going to wait and see what if anything WAI is going to tell the HTML WG to do
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  197. # [15:57] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: hope it will free up more time for you work on validator.nu
  198. # [15:57] <MikeSmith> btw, do you have a v.nu TODO list online somewhere?
  199. # [15:57] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: there's the bugzilla, but it doesn't have all TODO on it
  200. # [15:58] <hsivonen> and yeah, I want to do a lot more coding
  201. # [15:59] <MikeSmith> what's the status on the work you've been doing to improve the error output from jing?
  202. # [15:59] <MikeSmith> is that done, or you still need to do more work?
  203. # [15:59] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the status is that I'm blocking on George Bina pushing out a new upstread snapshot
  204. # [15:59] <MikeSmith> ok
  205. # [16:00] <MikeSmith> yeah, I remember you saying that a while back
  206. # [16:00] <MikeSmith> what's the current likelihood of George folding back in your changes upstream?
  207. # [16:01] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I think the likelihood isn't too great
  208. # [16:01] <hsivonen> we'll see
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  211. # [16:14] <hsivonen> I think not replying on the mailing list is a key skill
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  213. # [16:15] <hsivonen> the trouble I have is that I'm not sure how badly the alt stuff is going to come back and bite Validator.nu if I don't explain what I'm doing
  214. # [16:15] <hsivonen> that is, that I'm not seeking to be evil here
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  219. # [16:26] <Dashiva> Geez
  220. # [16:27] <hsivonen> Dashiva: ?
  221. # [16:27] <Dashiva> I'm pondering a dilemma. What would they choose between a) always perfect alt, everything else in wcag intentionally violated and b) optional alt
  222. # [16:28] <takkaria> they would spin round the question such that they didn't have to answer. :)
  223. # [16:29] <Dashiva> Yes, I expect most answers would be "We want both, and a pony"
  224. # [16:29] <hsivonen> Dashiva: and you'd be immoral for asking :-/
  225. # [16:30] <Dashiva> That's okay, I was cited in the original formal complaint, so my innocence is lost
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  228. # [16:31] <hsivonen> I think it isn't okay. it creates and unhealthy working environment and polarizes people needlessly
  229. # [16:37] <Dashiva> I guess I still have problems taking it 100% seriously. It's just so... absurd... at times.
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  232. # [16:40] <hsivonen> perhaps I'm taking it too seriously, but it really bothers me that discussions about different ways to address an issue have a constant undertone that people who try to do something they believe is for the better are immoral, closet bigots, etc.
  233. # [16:44] <Philip`> hsivonen: I don't think anyone ever seeks to be evil - they just see themselves from a twisted perspective, and then act in a way that they consider perfectly rational :-)
  234. # [16:45] <Dashiva> We definitely need people like you (and more of them).
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  239. # [16:46] <Dashiva> Can't let it turn into a war of attrition, where they proclaim "victory" just because everyone gives up trying to reason with them
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  241. # [16:48] <jgraham__> Gez would be a lot more convincing if he didn't argue in tautologies
  242. # [16:49] <jgraham__> "<img> without alt is defined as an incomplete structure incomplete structures are bad, therefore img without alt is bad"
  243. # [16:49] <jgraham__> is totally logical but pretty pointless
  244. # [16:53] <takkaria> I think some people just don't accept presenting an image as a valid thing to want to do in HTML
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  248. # [17:00] <hsivonen> jgraham__: whether it is bad isn't the whole story. it's whether the alternative is worse
  249. # [17:03] <Dashiva> Haha. I just imagined a conspiracy theory that would explain it all: They have to make sure non-conforming documents are horribly inaccessible, because if non-conforming documents were possible to consume, it would hurt the push for mandatory accessibility.
  250. # [17:16] <jgraham__> hsivonen: I know.
  251. # [17:16] <hsivonen> jgraham__: yeah. my point was that the tautology wasn't the only problem
  252. # [17:17] <jgraham__> Sure.
  253. # [17:18] <jgraham__> FWIW I'm not sure that the Authoring Tool Accessibility Guidelines are very helpful
  254. # [17:19] <hsivonen> I should probably reread them, but I don't feel like doing it right now.
  255. # [17:19] <jgraham__> For example they seem to encourage KompoZer-style dialogs that make it very easy to generate bad alt text
  256. # [17:20] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I'm not sure I'd say you're taking it too seriously, but I would wonder whether the time and energy any and everybody is spending on it might be more productively spent on other things
  257. # [17:20] <jgraham__> Although they do say that it should be possible to check the accessibility of a document, they don't seem to take the stance that this should be a human-led process
  258. # [17:21] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I think it's clear that it would be more productive for *everyone* to drop the issue.
  259. # [17:21] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the part I'm worried about is only some people dropping it and design getting done by being out-shouted
  260. # [17:23] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: whatever decision might possibly be reached right now would not be the final decision about it anyway
  261. # [17:23] <jgraham__> That's a legitimate fear given that e.g. John Foliot has stated that he views the situation as trench warfare
  262. # [17:23] <MikeSmith> I mean I can see this discussion will get re-opened when we go to last call
  263. # [17:26] <hsivonen> the cost of having the courtesy to discuss stuff instead of just being rude and not talking certainly has gone up lately
  264. # [17:27] <BenMillard> I have a message rule which automatically marks as read all messages with subject line mentioning any of various keywords
  265. # [17:27] <BenMillard> sadly, I added "alt" to that list a few months ago
  266. # [17:27] <MikeSmith> it seems to me it was well known (or should have been well known) that this and other contentious changes to authoring-conformance criteria related to accessibility would provoke just the kinds of reactions just we are seeing now
  267. # [17:29] <Dashiva> MikeSmith: It would indeed be wonderful if someone could convince them to leave the issue alone at least until LC
  268. # [17:30] <MikeSmith> Dashiva: would be wonderful, but it's not going to happen, of course
  269. # [17:33] <BenMillard> MikeSmith, what are you getting at with the "it was well known" comment? it looks like you're suggesting such changes set out to be controversial rather than being genuine attempts at good design...although I may be reading too much between the lines
  270. # [17:33] <MikeSmith> BenMillard: you're reading too much between the lines
  271. # [17:34] <BenMillard> phew :)
  272. # [17:35] <BenMillard> I've not seen much review of data table accessibility since that section got updated
  273. # [17:36] <BenMillard> maybe people like what we did (?!)
  274. # [17:37] <Dashiva> Would be nice
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  276. # [17:39] <BenMillard> Lachy & jgraham__, does your presentation show people how to contribute productively to HTML5's development?
  277. # [17:39] <jgraham__> BenMillard: I want to cover that for sure
  278. # [17:40] <jgraham__> I was planning to use you as an example :)
  279. # [17:40] <BenMillard> jgraham, cool :)
  280. # [17:42] <MikeSmith> jgraham__: does it give examples of how to not contribute productively? ;)
  281. # [17:42] <jgraham__> MikeSmith: Were it only that I were that brave
  282. # [17:42] <MikeSmith> heh
  283. # [17:42] <BenMillard> I have a dream where I give a presentation about the path I took from my bad initial reactions to HTML5, through the process of studying data tables and hanging around here in IRC, meeting WHATWG people at the W3C thing last year, to the understanding I have now for how the work is done
  284. # [17:43] <MikeSmith> jgraham__: It reminds me of something .. here in Japan, there are many signs in public (on trains and such) that have cartoon illustrations of bad/discouraged behavior
  285. # [17:44] <MikeSmith> e.g., illustration of a woman doing her makeup on the train
  286. # [17:44] <MikeSmith> and statement being basically, Don't do this.
  287. # [17:44] <jgraham__> MikeSmith: I remember those; when I was in Japan we wore our rucksacs on the train which was a social faux-pas
  288. # [17:45] <jgraham__> Someone pointed us at the pictures
  289. # [17:45] <MikeSmith> I wonder if we could come up with some illustrations of bad behavior that we'd like to discourage in discourse about HTML
  290. # [17:45] <MikeSmith> jgraham__: yeah, problem with rucksacs is that the trains are so crowded
  291. # [17:45] <MikeSmith> so bags ended up bumping into peopel
  292. # [17:46] <BenMillard> MikeSmith, flamethrowers, trolls, sheep and bandwagons come to mind?
  293. # [17:46] <MikeSmith> BenMillard: ah yes
  294. # [17:46] <jgraham__> MikeSmith: The train wasn't particularly crowded and I was pretty annoyed that people seed to think it was OK to just push me out of the way when it was easier to go round me
  295. # [17:46] <jgraham__> But such is the joy of different cultures
  296. # [17:46] <MikeSmith> I also imagine a "painting the bikeshed" illustration
  297. # [17:46] <jgraham__> Especially when you're sleep deprived
  298. # [17:47] <jgraham__> s/seed/seemed/
  299. # [17:47] <MikeSmith> jgraham__: ah yeah, the pushing-out-of-the-way thing is hard to get used to
  300. # [17:48] <MikeSmith> anywhere else, somebody doing it would likely end up getting a punch in the nose
  301. # [17:48] <jgraham__> heh
  302. # [17:49] <MikeSmith> One way i've found to educate people about it is to push back
  303. # [17:49] <MikeSmith> but unfortunately, some of the main culprits are old ladies
  304. # [17:49] <MikeSmith> so that doesn't work so well for that case
  305. # [17:50] <MikeSmith> or rather, works a bit too well
  306. # [17:51] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I once considered writing observations about how to really annoy CSS WG members on www-style
  307. # [17:51] <jgraham__> Japan is a fascinating place. It has very different cultural norms to almost everywhere else in the "developed world"
  308. # [17:51] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: but then I decided not to write it considering that my wannabe article from years ago offended people
  309. # [17:52] <MikeSmith> well, some people are just waiting to be offended, actively looking around for something to get offended about
  310. # [17:52] <MikeSmith> so sometimes nice to oblige them
  311. # [17:53] <Philip`> Other times people just write offensive things ;-)
  312. # [17:53] <MikeSmith> with some token of offensiveness to keep them busy
  313. # [17:53] <Dashiva> Is the css wg still trying to decide if "public" includes logging IRC?
  314. # [17:53] <annevk> No, that's settled now
  315. # [17:54] <jgraham__> I remember that one of the www-style flamewars made me realise that working groups / mailing lists for WGs are not able to deal with deliberate disruptive influences well.
  316. # [17:55] <jgraham__> It's too easy to tarpit everyone
  317. # [17:55] <MikeSmith> jgraham__: aye
  318. # [17:56] <jgraham__> BenMillard (or anyone I guess): do you have anything particular about the community that you think should go in the @media talk?
  319. # [17:56] <MikeSmith> I guess that issue you mentiong is one of the biggest issues with trying to do purely consensus-driven decision making
  320. # [17:56] * jgraham__ is now known as jgraham
  321. # [17:57] <Dashiva> BenMillard: Any chance of that dream becoming reality?
  322. # [17:58] <jgraham> MikeSmith: The interesting thing is that the WHATWG sidestepped the issue by not maintaining an illusion of decision making being consensus driven
  323. # [17:58] <MikeSmith> jgraham: the record of browser implementation progress that has been made with parts of HTML5 seems worth mentioning in your talk
  324. # [17:58] <MikeSmith> how long is the talk?
  325. # [17:58] <jgraham> MikeSmith: 1 hour. I think we'll aim for about 45+15
  326. # [17:59] <jgraham> (the 15 being for questions)
  327. # [17:59] <jgraham> So the plan is:
  328. # [17:59] <MikeSmith> have you seen the slides I did for my presentation at XTech?
  329. # [17:59] <jgraham> 1. Introduction
  330. # [17:59] <jgraham> 2. Design Principles
  331. # [17:59] <jgraham> 3. Demo how HTML5 features can be used in projects today
  332. # [17:59] <jgraham> 4. Communit
  333. # [18:00] <jgraham> y
  334. # [18:00] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Yeah, I saw the slides. We will crib from them for 3 I guess
  335. # [18:00] <MikeSmith> cool
  336. # [18:01] <hsivonen> jgraham: I have a couple of community observations both of which may not be politically correct
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  338. # [18:01] <MikeSmith> I think the record of implementation progress for HTML5 has been exceptional compared to other specs
  339. # [18:01] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  340. # [18:01] <MikeSmith> and that is always worth mentioning
  341. # [18:02] <hsivonen> jgraham: 1) the WHATWG community formed when WHATWG was seen as illegitimate by many, so it attracted people who looked at the substance instead of well-known logo
  342. # [18:02] <MikeSmith> especially to counter the "The spec will take 15 years to complete??!!" stuff
  343. # [18:02] <hsivonen> jgraham: 2) "running code" process vs. consensus process
  344. # [18:03] <MikeSmith> jgraham: I also have some general HTML5 overview slides here:
  345. # [18:04] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/2008/Talks/04-24-smith/ http://www.w3.org/2008/Talks/04-24-smith/index.pdf
  346. # [18:04] <MikeSmith> feel free to crib from those too, if you find anything useful
  347. # [18:04] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Thanks
  348. # [18:04] <MikeSmith> when I made them, I felt free to crib from previous presentations that annevk and zcorpan had done :)
  349. # [18:05] <jgraham> hsivonen: I agree with both your observations
  350. # [18:05] <hsivonen> jgraham: do you have my ten points on file?
  351. # [18:05] <jgraham> hsivonen: No, I don't think so
  352. # [18:06] <hsivonen> jgraham: http://pastebin.ca/992541
  353. # [18:06] <BenMillard> Dashiva, seems unlikely as nobody has ever heard of me :|
  354. # [18:07] <Dashiva> If you make it, they will ask ;)
  355. # [18:09] <hsivonen> regarding consensus process, see the first paragraph of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Management_by_perkele (the content in the third para and onwards is questionable)
  356. # [18:09] <BenMillard> jgraham__, "09 You can participate." giving specific URLs, such as to Hixie's message with 6 steps to joining HTMLWG, as well as an irc:// URI for this channel and other useful logistical things would be valuable
  357. # [18:10] <BenMillard> until you're already in the community, finding where the community takes place is almost impossible
  358. # [18:11] <BenMillard> contributions don't need to be Grand Scientific Experiments; Mythbusters "science with a small s" is infinitely more useful than speculation
  359. # [18:12] <Dashiva> Just documenting status quo can be helpful, and that's largely just someone having to put in the hours
  360. # [18:13] <BenMillard> Dashiva, exactly
  361. # [18:15] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: thanks for the pointer. I remember somebody mentioning this term when we were at XTech
  362. # [18:20] <BenMillard> by the way, my detailed notes from Sight City 2008 are coming together here: http://projectcerbera.com/blog/2008/05#day10
  363. # [18:20] <BenMillard> I've got to document 9th May 2008 then it's done, I think
  364. # [18:21] <BenMillard> people I talked to mostly had no idea HTML5 was being developed
  365. # [18:21] <BenMillard> they seemed happy about us wanted them to be involved, though
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  368. # [18:31] <Philip`> BenMillard: You have a link to http://projectcerbera.local/ which doesn't work
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  373. # [18:43] <jgraham> hsivonen: Thanks for the links
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  389. # [19:14] <MikeSmith> jgraham: another suggestion to consider, fwiw: was thinking about whatever publisher it was that put out the "Missing Manual" series of tech books
  390. # [19:15] <MikeSmith> the HTML5 spec could be seen as the "missing" spec for HTML
  391. # [19:15] <Philip`> (Apparently Pogue Press / O'Reilly)
  392. # [19:15] <MikeSmith> the spec defines how conformant implementations must behave
  393. # [19:16] <MikeSmith> the spec that UA/browser implementors have been missing for the last 10+ years
  394. # [19:16] <Philip`> That sounds like a good idea - publish the HTML5 spec as a book, such that it's slightly cheaper than printing hundreds of pages on your own laser printer, and use the money to fund future development
  395. # [19:17] <jgraham> Philip`: Who would buy the HTML spec as a book?
  396. # [19:17] <Philip`> jgraham: People who would otherwise print it out, and realise that the book is cheaper
  397. # [19:17] <jgraham> Philip`: e.g.?
  398. # [19:17] <Philip`> jgraham: I believe I've heard Chris Wilson talking about the spec as being an inch thick, so I assume he's printed it
  399. # [19:18] <annevk> marcosc prints specs
  400. # [19:18] <jgraham> Oh well.
  401. # [19:18] <jgraham> Still a market of 10-100 people isn't really going to make the book cheape
  402. # [19:18] <jgraham> r
  403. # [19:19] <annevk> true
  404. # [19:19] <jgraham> I think the time is about right for the first html5-specific book aimed at web-devs though
  405. # [19:20] * Philip` remembers there was a Perl 6 book two or three years ago
  406. # [19:21] <Philip`> That's already totally obsolete, and Perl 6 isn't even implemented yet, so HTML 5 is in a far better position
  407. # [19:22] <MikeSmith> there are services that can print paperback books these days on-demand
  408. # [19:24] <MikeSmith> hey, there are some people that hate some of the ideas in the HTML5 spec so much (e.g., handling on non-well-formed content) that maybe there is a market for printing the spec on rolls of toilet paper
  409. # [19:25] <Philip`> The HTML5 spec-annotation system should be extended so you can vote for how much you like a section on a scale of 1 to 5
  410. # [19:26] <Philip`> then we can automatically extract the most suitable sections for those applications such as toilet paper
  411. # [19:26] <MikeSmith> heh
  412. # [19:26] <MikeSmith> we're doing some great productive brainstorming here
  413. # [19:28] <MikeSmith> but I think Doug Crockford is way ahead of us all, as usual
  414. # [19:28] <MikeSmith> with his JavaScript: The Good Parts book
  415. # [19:29] <MikeSmith> great cross-selling opportunity for O'Reilly/Amazon or whoever
  416. # [19:29] <MikeSmith> JavaScript: The Good Parts book bundled with JavaScript: The Bad Parts toilet paper
  417. # [19:30] * Philip` thinks that's an awesome idea
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  463. # [23:43] <Hixie> mcarter__: otherwise you don't know when to fire the event on the other side
  464. # [23:44] <mcarter__> Hixie, why not fire an event every time any data comes through?
  465. # [23:48] <Hixie> BenMillard: you can always give your talk as a video blog and put it on youtube :-)
  466. # [23:49] <BenMillard> Hixie, interesting idea
  467. # [23:49] <Hixie> mcarter__: because if side A sends two strings to side B, you want two events on side B
  468. # [23:49] <Hixie> mcarter__: not one, or three
  469. # [23:50] <BenMillard> Hixie, it's a question of time and money and equipment, where I have little of any
  470. # [23:50] <mcarter__> Hixie, yeah, but protocols generally already take care of framing... and if you're inventing a new protocol, you can just make it \r\n based if you want simple framing
  471. # [23:51] <mcarter__> Hixie, what i mean, is that our transport protocol can not have framing, and you can effectively do the same thing in your client by parsing the incoming data
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  473. # [23:51] <Hixie> mcarter__: if you frame on newlines then you can't send multiline text, and TCP/IP doesn't have framing at a more useful level than "byte" as far as I can tell.
  474. # [23:51] <Hixie> mcarter__: i don't want to require that every js author implement a byte buffer to collect strings, that's just annoying fluff that we should take care for them
  475. # [23:52] <Hixie> mcarter__: adding framing also means we can later expand the protocol to support both strings and arbitrary binary blobs
  476. # [23:52] <Hixie> mcarter__: e.g. when we implement Blobs as proposed in Web API
  477. # [23:52] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  478. # [23:52] <Philip`> BenMillard: In case you don't have psychic powers and didn't see it while you weren't here: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20080517#l-368
  479. # [23:53] <mcarter__> Hixie, I can imagine a scenario where you want to modify an existing server, say a jabber server, just by making it understand the initial handshake, then leaving the rest of its code untouched. With the framing added to the data transport, its not as easy as that
  480. # [23:53] * mcarter__ is now known as mcarter
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  482. # [23:55] <Hixie> mcarter: that wasn't one of the use cases i was considering, but in any case if you're going to that kind of lengths adding a simple translator on the end isn't a big deal
  483. # [23:55] <mcarter> perhaps not
  484. # [23:57] <BenMillard> Philip`, oops, thanks for that!
  485. # [23:58] <Hixie> http://www.openajax.org/runtime/wiki/Feature_Requests_Summary_Page and the pages it link to are hard to read for some reason
  486. # [23:58] <Hixie> i don't know why
  487. # [23:59] <Hixie> i think it just has too muh fluff
  488. # [23:59] <Hixie> instead of being simple and direct
  489. # [23:59] <Hixie> i just feel like i'm wading in mud when i read it
  490. # [23:59] <Hixie> which is really sad
  491. # [23:59] <Hixie> because this would be really important feedback
  492. # [23:59] <BenMillard> Hixie, the "Active Feature Requests" duplicates the first column in the third column, only difference being the third column items are linked
  493. # Session Close: Sun May 18 00:00:00 2008

The end :)