/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-05-18 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun May 18 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Hixie> yeah, for example
  4. # [00:00] <Hixie> and the wiki pages themselves have about 50% boilerplate
  5. # [00:01] <Hixie> so it's like wading through generic material to get to the actual data
  6. # [00:01] <BenMillard> Hixie, they use <th> for the normal headers and <td colspan><strong> for spanned ones, annoyingly :(
  7. # [00:02] <BenMillard> I see ordered lists written using (1) foo (2) bar rather than <ol>
  8. # [00:02] <BenMillard> I always find that hard to read
  9. # [00:02] <mcarter> are those artifacts of mediawiki, or are they deliberately putting those in?
  10. # [00:02] <Hixie> yeah
  11. # [00:03] <BenMillard> oh, just realised the entire 2nd column in that table just says "coming later" :D :D
  12. # [00:03] <BenMillard> so really, it's just a set of <h3><ul> and not a table at all (yet)
  13. # [00:04] <BenMillard> Hixie, you aren't going mad. that site has made unhelpful choices for presenting its content
  14. # [00:04] <Hixie> glad to hear it's not just me :-)
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  17. # [00:07] <BenMillard> Hixie, I like how it talks about "heroic JavaScript" in contrast to the "vastly insufficient" CSS: http://www.openajax.org/runtime/wiki/Better_UI_Layout
  18. # [00:07] * BenMillard imagines Superman's outfit with a J prefixed to the S
  19. # [00:08] * Parts: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  20. # [00:14] <Hixie> heh
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  23. # [01:00] <Hixie> i think <title> should be made optional for documents intended to be used inside iframes
  24. # [01:04] * Joins: Camaban (n=alee@85-211-102-199.dyn.gotadsl.co.uk)
  25. # [01:07] <takkaria> sounds sensible
  26. # [01:09] <Philip`> What's wrong with using <title></title>? That'd allow validators to still tell you when you forgot to put a title in a normal page
  27. # [01:10] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@ti200710a340-1519.bb.online.no) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  28. # [01:11] <hasather> Philip`: agreed
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  33. # [01:22] <Hixie> Philip`: well would <title></title> be acceptable on a normal page?
  34. # [01:22] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  35. # [01:22] <Hixie> maybe i should only allow it to be omitted in documents written in data: URIs in <iframe>s
  36. # [01:26] <Philip`> Hixie: It would be no less acceptable than <title>----</title> or anything else that doesn't make sense, and the spec shouldn't require pages to make sense, so it shouldn't require against <title></title>
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  39. # [01:28] <Philip`> (Actually, I don't think I believe that)
  40. # [01:29] <Philip`> (but still I don't think the spec can require that you don't write <title></title>, because then people will just write <title> </title> instead, so the effect is the same)
  41. # [01:29] <Dashiva> I don't see how <title></title> can be any worse than <title> </title>
  42. # [01:30] <Dashiva> ... right
  43. # [01:30] <Hixie> and i don't see how omitting it altogether is any worse than either of those
  44. # [01:31] <Hixie> :-)
  45. # [01:31] <Philip`> The practical effect if it's allowed to be omitted is that validators won't tell you when it's omitted, which is bad since usually you don't want to omit it
  46. # [01:31] * Dashiva sees ugly parallels to @alt on the horizon
  47. # [01:31] <Hixie> you also don't want to leave it blank :-)
  48. # [01:31] <Hixie> but what do you think of my other suggestion?
  49. # [01:32] <Philip`> and if validators do complain, and you really don't want a title, it's not at all harmful to enter <title></title>
  50. # [01:32] <Hixie> that is, only allowing it to be omitted in documents written in data: URIs in <iframe>s
  51. # [01:32] <Philip`> Making conformance depend on the context of a document seems like a really bad idea
  52. # [01:32] <Hixie> aww
  53. # [01:32] <Dashiva> Hixie: I'm crazy enough to say that nobody is going to validate an iframe data:URI anyhow :)
  54. # [01:32] <Hixie> i would hope that hsivonen will make his validator check any data: URIs for conformance
  55. # [01:32] * Quits: mcarter (n=mcarter@pool-72-87-174-214.lsanca.btas.verizon.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  56. # [01:32] <Hixie> including nested ones :-)
  57. # [01:32] <Philip`> hsivonen was complaining about conformance depending on resources that the document links to, so I don't imagine he'd be happy if it depended on resources linking to the document :-)
  58. # [01:32] <Hixie> in due course eventually of course
  59. # [01:33] <Hixie> you know, when he adds CSS support, etc
  60. # [01:33] <Dashiva> I just don't think the use case is worth the special casing
  61. # [01:33] <Hixie> so the use case here is making it easy to use <iframe>s to sandbox blog comments
  62. # [01:34] <Dashiva> And I posit that such comments are autogenerated, and therefore can autogenerate <title>Comment by DudeMan</title>
  63. # [01:34] <Hixie> I want to allow, e.g.: <iframe seamless sandbox src="data:text/html,I don't like you!"></iframe>
  64. # [01:34] <Philip`> Including non-quirks mode stuff?
  65. # [01:34] <Hixie> and <iframe seamless sandbox src="data:text/html,Please buy our <a href='http://example.com/'>porn</a>."></iframe>
  66. # [01:34] <Dashiva> haha
  67. # [01:34] <Hixie> i guess we would require <!DOCTYPE HTML>
  68. # [01:35] <Dashiva> I don't think I ever saw porn spam that didn't claim to be free
  69. # [01:35] <Philip`> If you're already requiring at least the "data:text/html,<!DOCTYPE HTML>' boilerplate, it doesn't seem hard to add '<title></title>' too
  70. # [01:35] <Hixie> i was just showing the embedded markup, don't bikeshed my example :-P
  71. # [01:36] <Hixie> Philip`: yeah, i guess
  72. # [01:36] <Dashiva> data:text/bikeshed;blue
  73. # [01:36] <Hixie> Philip`: but that's sad
  74. # [01:36] <Philip`> and everybody would want to write 'data:text/html,<!DOCTYPE HTML><html><head><title></title></head><body>...</body></html>' anyway because they don't like optional tags
  75. # [01:36] * Joins: jgraham_ (n=jgraham@81-86-215-230.dsl.pipex.com)
  76. # [01:37] <Hixie> Philip`: i could get away with making the doctype optional too, and making "sandbox" force strict mode maybe
  77. # [01:39] <Dashiva> You're trying to make poor henry cry, aren't you
  78. # [01:40] <Hixie> people aren't going to like boilerplate before every comment
  79. # [01:40] <Hixie> hm
  80. # [01:40] <Hixie> actually
  81. # [01:41] <Hixie> i'm going to have to make the quirks mode inherit anyway
  82. # [01:41] <Hixie> because the style sheets will be mixed in from the parent
  83. # [01:41] <Philip`> I wouldn't mind boilerplate - that's what programming languages have variables for, so I'll only ever have to write it once
  84. # [01:42] <Dashiva> I wouldn't put it past authors to add stylesheets to the data uri too
  85. # [01:43] <Hixie> that's fine i guess
  86. # [01:43] <Philip`> Is it an Opera bug that data:text/html,a#b results in "a"?
  87. # [01:43] <takkaria> the prospect of data urls inside data urls inside data urls terrifies me
  88. # [01:44] <Hixie> Philip`: i believe not
  89. # [01:44] <Hixie> takkaria: i've used them often
  90. # [01:44] <takkaria> "often"? :)
  91. # [01:44] <Hixie> e.g. for graphics in style sheets in html documents
  92. # [01:44] <Hixie> well, you know
  93. # [01:44] <Philip`> Hixie: Oh; then doesn't that mean you'll needs lots of fiddly escaping to make sure the constructed data: URIs work right?
  94. # [01:44] <Hixie> sometimes
  95. # [01:44] <Philip`> and then they won't be human-readable any more, so you might as well use base-64
  96. # [01:45] <Hixie> Philip`: you'll need to escape two characters, #, and the character used for quoting the attribute
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  99. # [01:46] <Hixie> Philip`: if people forget to quote the ", then it'll be quickly obvious (long before security problems, probably)
  100. # [01:46] <Hixie> oh and %s i guess
  101. # [01:46] <Philip`> Hixie: And &
  102. # [01:46] <Hixie> and &
  103. # [01:46] <Hixie> hm
  104. # [01:46] <Hixie> crap
  105. # [01:46] <Hixie> four characters is a problem
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  107. # [01:47] <Hixie> we could introduce a brand new way of embedding data, but then it'll not be backwards compatible...
  108. # [01:47] * Parts: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
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  110. # [01:48] <Philip`> Hmm, isn't non-backward-compatibility a good thing here? Otherwise a site using <iframe sandbox src="data:..."> will expose users in old browsers to all sorts of security issues that the sandbox was meant to prevent
  111. # [01:48] <Hixie> well, the sandbox is an extra level of security
  112. # [01:49] <Hixie> in the transition period it doesn't add much
  113. # [01:49] <Philip`> and anyway data:text/html,... won't be compatible with IE6/7, and maybe not with IE8 either, so in practical terms there's no backward compatibility
  114. # [01:49] <Hixie> oh, true
  115. # [01:49] <Hixie> i keep forgetting how much IE sucks
  116. # [01:49] <Dashiva> <sandbox> here we go
  117. # [01:50] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  118. # [01:50] <Hixie> we're using <iframe>s for many other reasons
  119. # [01:50] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  120. # [01:50] <Hixie> but we don't have to use src="" on <iframe> for embedding data inline
  121. # [01:51] <Philip`> Hixie: If the feature adds any security, some authors will start relying on that security (perhaps without considering all the implications in legacy/buggy UAs), and then some users (of legacy/buggy UAs) will suffer because of that
  122. # [01:52] <Philip`> which doesn't seem like good security design
  123. # [01:52] <Dashiva> So like @safesrc then
  124. # [01:52] <Philip`> Dashiva: I thought the point was that the source was *un*safe, hence needing all this protection around it :-)
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  127. # [01:53] <Hixie> Philip`: yeah well
  128. # [01:54] <Hixie> Philip`: good security design in this case is somewhat mutually exclusive with what people actually want
  129. # [01:54] <Dashiva> Philip`: It's a safe you put the src in
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  134. # [01:55] <Hixie> but what i was actually thinking of is a custom parse mode for an iframe "attribute"
  135. # [01:55] <Philip`> <iframe src=<<EOF>
  136. # [01:56] <Hixie> <iframe data=", and then anything but " will be treated literally, "" will be treated as a single ", and a single " will close it
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  139. # [01:56] <Philip`> (Yay here-docs)
  140. # [01:56] <Hixie> heredocs are hard to escape
  141. # [01:57] <Hixie> you have to be able to guarentee that you have a non-predictable random number generator
  142. # [01:58] <Philip`> What's the problem with using base64? These comment systems are always going to be generated dynamically, and all languages have a trivial way to base64-encode some data, and then it's easy to see that you've got it right (rather than having to worry about whether there's a character you forgot to escape)
  143. # [01:58] <Hixie> people were not happy with stuff you couldn't look at in view source
  144. # [01:59] <Hixie> when i suggested that
  145. # [01:59] * Quits: jwalden (n=waldo@RANDOM-THREE-O-EIGHT.MIT.EDU) (Remote closed the connection)
  146. # [01:59] <Philip`> Browser developers need to make 'view source' cleverer so it auto-expands base64
  147. # [02:00] <Hixie> browser developers have bigger fish to fry
  148. # [02:00] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  149. # [02:00] <Dashiva> Fancy encodings are a pickle
  150. # [02:00] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  151. # [02:00] <Dashiva> Take percent-encoding in URLs when displaying the URL in the status bar
  152. # [02:01] <Philip`> <iframe data="normal HTML attributes with escaped &amp; and &quot; and not % or #"> seems easier to understand, and is compatible with all existing HTML parsers and editors and syntax highlighters and libraries and everything
  153. # [02:01] <Hixie> that might work
  154. # [02:02] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-98-207-134-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  155. # [02:02] <Hixie> though the failure mode for not doign &amp; isn't obvious
  156. # [02:02] <Philip`> It's only two characters to escape, or $cgi->escapeHTML(...) or [% ... | html %] or whatever
  157. # [02:03] <Hixie> yeah
  158. # [02:03] <Philip`> The failure mode for not doing &amp; is not a security issue
  159. # [02:04] <Philip`> ...so it's still annoying but not fatally so
  160. # [02:04] <Hixie> sure it is
  161. # [02:04] <Philip`> Not doing &quot; is a more severe problem but it's also pretty much impossible to miss when you get it wrong
  162. # [02:05] <Hixie> oh hm actually no it isn't, you're right
  163. # [02:05] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  164. # [02:05] <Hixie> yeah forgetting to quote " is no issue
  165. # [02:05] <Hixie> othermaciej_ needs to do something about his network
  166. # [02:05] * Quits: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) (Connection reset by peer)
  167. # [02:05] <Hixie> i'd go insane if i had a network like that
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  171. # [02:08] <Philip`> Hixie: Perhaps he *has* gone insane
  172. # [02:08] <Hixie> true
  173. # [02:10] <Hixie> an attribute might work... hmm...
  174. # [02:10] <Hixie> what should we call it
  175. # [02:10] <Hixie> data="" is bad due to <object data> being a URI
  176. # [02:10] <Philip`> <iframe src2="...">
  177. # [02:10] <Hixie> <iframe markup=""> ?
  178. # [02:11] <Hixie> and markup="" can override src=""
  179. # [02:11] <Philip`> content
  180. # [02:11] <Hixie> that way you can set both for legacy UAs
  181. # [02:11] <Hixie> content="" is good
  182. # [02:11] <Hixie> but it takes markup
  183. # [02:11] <Hixie> and <meta content> doesn't
  184. # [02:11] <Dashiva> Is there anything that takes markup at the moment?
  185. # [02:11] <Hixie> no
  186. # [02:11] <Philip`> Yes
  187. # [02:11] <Hixie> other than href="" and src="" and data=""
  188. # [02:12] <Philip`> The contents of most elements takes markup
  189. # [02:12] <Hixie> element markup
  190. # [02:12] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@ti200710a340-1519.bb.online.no)
  191. # [02:12] <Hixie> in attributes
  192. # [02:12] <Hixie> is what i assume Dashiva meant
  193. # [02:12] <Dashiva> Yes
  194. # [02:13] <Hixie> i wish we could use the actual content of <iframe>s but the <!-- parsing behaviour is just inane
  195. # [02:13] <Philip`> What's the fallback behaviour in current UAs for <iframe not-src-attribute>text</iframe>?
  196. # [02:14] <Hixie> same as src=about:blank
  197. # [02:14] <Philip`> like, could you put a stripped plain-text version of the comment in there, to have it work (though uglier) for all users?
  198. # [02:14] <Philip`> Oh
  199. # [02:15] * Philip` doesn't like the attribute name "markup" because it doesn't make him realise that it's giving the content of the iframe
  200. # [02:15] <Hixie> yeah
  201. # [02:15] <Hixie> i don't like it either
  202. # [02:16] <Hixie> <iframe data value content> are all taken already for other uses and would be confusing
  203. # [02:16] <Hixie> <iframe source> is too much like src
  204. # [02:16] <Dashiva> src2 is too much like http? ;)
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  206. # [02:16] <Hixie> src2 doesn't convey why it s different from src
  207. # [02:17] <Hixie> <iframe subdocument=""> ?
  208. # [02:17] <Hixie> <iframe doc=""> ?
  209. # [02:17] <Philip`> Leave it unspecified for now and then use implementation experience to determine what name to settle on
  210. # [02:17] <Dashiva> That sounds like something
  211. # [02:17] <Hixie> Philip`: :-)
  212. # [02:17] <Hixie> Philip`: that doesn't work so well for things like this
  213. # [02:18] <Hixie> <iframe html=""> ?
  214. # [02:18] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  215. # [02:18] <Hixie> i wonder how to deal with this xhtml vs html issue here
  216. # [02:18] <Philip`> What about XHTML?
  217. # [02:18] <Philip`> Good point!
  218. # [02:19] * Hixie would be happy to not deal with it :-D
  219. # [02:20] <Lachy> what's the purpose of this new attribute for iframe??
  220. # [02:20] <Hixie> Lachy: a way of including arbitrary blog comments sandboxed
  221. # [02:21] <Dashiva> srcml?
  222. # [02:21] <Lachy> ok, I'll go read the irc logs...
  223. # [02:22] <Hixie> heh, not sure it'll help :-)
  224. # [02:22] <Hixie> doc="" and html="" are the main contenders i think
  225. # [02:23] <Lachy> regarding this: <Hixie> i think <title> should be made optional for documents intended to be used inside iframes
  226. # [02:24] <Lachy> doesn't assistive technology read out the title of documents in frames?
  227. # [02:24] <Hixie> not when the seamless="" attribute is specified
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  229. # [02:24] <Philip`> Lachy: It's not too late to pretend you never mentioned accessibility here
  230. # [02:24] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  231. # [02:24] <Lachy> what's the seamless attr?
  232. # [02:25] <Dashiva> Probably to make it not look like an iframe
  233. # [02:25] <Hixie> Lachy: an attribute to make iframes work like client-side includes
  234. # [02:27] <takkaria> Dmitry would be happy
  235. # [02:29] <Philip`> Can you do <!doctype html><iframe seamless src=header.html></iframe>blah blah<iframe seamless src=footer.html></iframe>?
  236. # [02:29] <Hixie> yup
  237. # [02:29] <Hixie> and clicking on links in header.html will navigate the parent frame
  238. # [02:30] * Philip` can't decide whether that's a good thing or a bad thing
  239. # [02:30] <Hixie> why would it be bad?
  240. # [02:30] <Hixie> people have been asking for it for decades
  241. # [02:30] <Hixie> even in the 70s people were saying html should support it
  242. # [02:30] <Dashiva> The idea is to have in-document content with outside-document security, isn't it?
  243. # [02:31] <Hixie> though i think that may have just been some poor research on the behalf of time travellers
  244. # [02:31] <Philip`> People have been asking for flying cars for decades and it'd still be a terrible idea because it'd be abused far too much
  245. # [02:31] <Hixie> ground cars are a bad idea too, but we still have those :-)
  246. # [02:31] * Quits: qwert666 (n=qwert666@acbj138.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) ("Leaving")
  247. # [02:31] <Hixie> Dashiva: that's another part of the current work i'm doing, but it's not seamless=""
  248. # [02:31] <Hixie> Dashiva: that's the sandbox="" part
  249. # [02:32] <Philip`> We're stuck with the legacy of ground cars, but that's no reason to make things worse by making cars that far harder to drive
  250. # [02:32] <Philip`> s/ / are/
  251. # [02:34] <Hixie> flying cars don't have to be manual-drive
  252. # [02:34] <Hixie> they could be automated
  253. # [02:35] <Dashiva> Flying cars are better than people strapping jet engines on their ground cars
  254. # [02:35] <Hixie> (actually that would be easier than making ground cars automated)
  255. # [02:35] <Philip`> I think there's more problems in a flying car than the manual gearbox :-p
  256. # [02:36] <Philip`> I wouldn't like to be stuck in rush hour on a windy day
  257. # [02:36] <Hixie> (first, flying automated vehicles are far easier than ground vehicles, and the AI is far more advanced today; and second, there's little legacy to deal with)
  258. # [02:36] <Hixie> gotta go
  259. # [02:36] <Hixie> bbl
  260. # [02:37] <Philip`> Also, automated cars always lock you in and kill you
  261. # [02:37] <Dashiva> Is that a rule?
  262. # [02:37] <Philip`> Yes
  263. # [02:37] <Philip`> Just watch TV
  264. # [02:37] <Dashiva> I remember the cab I took in Japan locked the doors
  265. # [02:37] <Dashiva> But it wasn't automated
  266. # [02:37] <Dashiva> And it took me to the dentist instead of killing me
  267. # [02:37] <Philip`> Did poison gas start hissing out of the dashboard?
  268. # [02:38] <Dashiva> No, and it was cheap too
  269. # [02:38] <Philip`> Oh
  270. # [02:38] <Philip`> I guess real life doesn't live up to the expectations provided by TV :-(
  271. # [02:38] <Dashiva> The driver could have been an android, though.
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  273. # [02:47] <takkaria> Doctor Who had the automated-car-locks-in-and-kills-people thing recently
  274. # [02:48] <Dashiva> I don't think it's really limited to cars. Automated houses tend to do the same, don't they?
  275. # [02:49] <takkaria> not had as much experience with them
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  278. # [02:56] <Philip`> takkaria: That's the one I was thinking of :-)
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  338. # [12:39] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008May/0049.html ...
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  344. # [13:16] <hsivonen> Hixie: Validator.nu should check data URIs for conformance but not nested ones
  345. # [13:17] <hsivonen> (and, yes, Hixie's data URIs are non-conforming for having spaces)
  346. # [13:20] <hsivonen> Hixie: "should" as in "I think it already does, if it doesn't, it's a bug"
  347. # [13:20] <hsivonen> that is, data URIs are checked for data URI level conformance
  348. # [13:20] <hsivonen> the payload is not checked
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  359. # [15:12] <MikeSmith> http://blog.whatwg.org/vim-checker
  360. # [15:12] <MikeSmith> just published
  361. # [15:14] <Lachy> wow! Do people still use vim?
  362. # [15:20] <MikeSmith> Lachy: only smart people :)
  363. # [15:37] <MikeSmith> the term "Grouping content" doesn't seem to be defined anywhere is the spec
  364. # [15:37] <MikeSmith> only as the title of what used to be the "Prose" elements section
  365. # [15:39] <MikeSmith> but since what was called "prose content" is now "flow content", maybe the "Grouping content" section should be titled "Flow content" ..
  366. # [15:42] <MikeSmith> hmm, no
  367. # [15:42] <MikeSmith> I see that all "phrasing content" is also by definition "flow content"
  368. # [15:44] <MikeSmith> maybe "Grouping content elements are those used to group together runs of phrasing content into logical structures such as paragraphs and lists."
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  372. # [16:56] <hendry> MikeSmith: did you see http://natalian.org/archives/2008/05/17/vim-web-ide/
  373. # [16:56] <hendry> i should have cut the screencast into 3 parts. as the validator.nu part I screwed up.
  374. # [16:57] <hendry> Lachy: if you're in London we could meet up. I won't be going to @media mind
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  377. # [17:03] <MikeSmith> hendry: saw it but dint watch the video yet
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  382. # [17:07] <hendry> MikeSmith: video editing is such a pain in Debian. Cinerella does not work for me.
  383. # [17:08] <MikeSmith> I have long ago given up on trying to do much with video or audio under Linux
  384. # [17:08] <MikeSmith> even playing
  385. # [17:08] <Philip`> I used Blender for video editing once
  386. # [17:08] <hendry> heh, well... there must be some good video editing web application
  387. # [17:08] <Philip`> It actually sort of worked, once I learned what actions would crash it
  388. # [17:08] <hendry> (flash application mind)
  389. # [17:09] <hendry> Philip`: heh
  390. # [17:09] <Philip`> and also I had to compress my input videos because it didn't like 2GB files, if I remember correctly
  391. # [17:10] <MikeSmith> avoiding video and audio problems under Linux was one of the best side of effects for me of moving away from Linux-only laptop to a MacBook and running Debian and Windows on it under VMs
  392. # [17:11] <Philip`> and it was a bit akward to use for a minute-long video with only about eight video tracks, so I wouldn't want to use it for anything more complex
  393. # [17:12] <hendry> MikeSmith: i have no problems with playback
  394. # [17:21] <Philip`> Should <a href="1.2.3.4:5"> be interpreted as an absolute or relative URI?
  395. # [17:22] <Philip`> (Firefox thinks relative; Opera thinks absolute, which breaks a link on http://ms.aybab2u.com:8080/ )
  396. # [17:23] <takkaria> relative, blatantly
  397. # [17:23] * Quits: jgraham_ (n=jgraham@81-86-215-230.dsl.pipex.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  398. # [17:24] <Philip`> IE thinks "invalid syntax error"
  399. # [17:26] <Dashiva> Philip`: It's the old ": means schema", isn't it?
  400. # [17:27] <Dashiva> No, port
  401. # [17:28] <Philip`> I don't know what it is, except that it's annoying that it breaks :-)
  402. # [17:29] <Dashiva> Probably isn't relevant, actually, since it dealt with manually entering an address
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  404. # [17:37] <MikeSmith> hendry: got your mail, changes made
  405. # [17:39] <hendry> MikeSmith: thanks
  406. # [17:40] * hendry wonders if it's possible to link 2mins into a video /myvid.ogg?min=2
  407. # [17:42] <hdh> alternate video/audio streams too
  408. # [17:45] <hendry> can't find anything on youtube. i think it was possible on google video.
  409. # [17:48] * MikeSmith looks around for kfish
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  411. # [17:48] <MikeSmith> this is what annodex is for, I guess
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  413. # [17:49] <MikeSmith> Xiph
  414. # [17:49] <hdh> henry: looks like it broke sometime ago http://groups.google.com/group/google-video-general/browse_thread/thread/f7645bab2595ce8c
  415. # [17:51] <hendry> hdh: good hunting
  416. # [17:51] <hdh> thx, I searched the help center
  417. # [17:58] <hdh> is there a google custom search (or similar) for all html5 sources (mailing-list, irc, the spec)?
  418. # [18:02] <hendry> hdh: not that I know of. good idea. start it and invite me :)
  419. # [18:04] <hdh> whatwg.org, html5.org, krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/*, *.w3.org/html/wg/html5/*; any more to add?
  420. # [18:05] <hdh> lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/*, lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-testsuite/*
  421. # [18:06] <MikeSmith> hdh: http://www.w3.org/html/
  422. # [18:11] <hdh> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=012969598209138263813:exzxsykptac
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  424. # [18:17] <hendry> hdh: I would prefer it only searched http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/ not http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/
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  426. # [18:18] <Philip`> Does Google index whatwg.org/issues?
  427. # [18:19] <hdh> heh, I can't change any setting (the page says "Save failed")
  428. # [18:19] <Dashiva> Philip`: You mean if it indexes the contents of the script? :)
  429. # [18:19] <Philip`> Looks like it probably doesn't, in which case there's http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/cgi/issues.cgi/ , though that shouldn't actually have anything that's not on the mailing lists
  430. # [18:20] <Philip`> Dashiva: I mean indexing the data that script gets from its custom API via XHR :-)
  431. # [18:20] <Dashiva> I'm pretty sure we'll know very soon if the google spider starts executing scripts :)
  432. # [18:21] <Philip`> It does statically follow link-like strings in scripts
  433. # [18:21] <Philip`> but it's very dumb about it
  434. # [18:22] <Philip`> so it's not quite at the level of embedding a JS interpreter and DOM implementation
  435. # [18:26] <hendry> hdh: i had the same problems in firefox. switch to webkit.
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  440. # [18:29] * hsivonen is mildly amused to see <tt> instead of <code> on the WHATWG wiki
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  444. # [18:35] <hsivonen> hmm. I wonder if I should just implement the SVG stuff now that I'm looking at the MathML stuff anyway...
  445. # [18:38] <hsivonen> yeah, I should
  446. # [18:40] <hsivonen> we need to extend the tree builder test format to cover SVG and MathML
  447. # [18:50] <hdh> I have set the CSE to allow volunteers
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  451. # [19:03] <hdh> "Status: Error: OK (403)." <-- the error message when login to annotate system fails, that OK looks weird
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  461. # [20:01] <Philip`> hsivonen: "Validator.nu should check data URIs for conformance but not nested ones (and, yes, Hixie's data URIs are non-conforming for having spaces)" - should it be checking that in http://validator.nu/?doc=data%3Atext%2Fhtml%2Ca+b too?
  462. # [20:01] <Philip`> (Sadly WF2 causes functional regressions when implemented, so you can't test the validator like that in Opera)
  463. # [20:04] <hsivonen> Philip`: what's your opinion? should I make it whine about the URI in that case?
  464. # [20:04] <hsivonen> Philip`: when I wrote the code, I figured that in this case Validator.nu is acting as a general app accepting data URIs rather than as a checker
  465. # [20:05] <Philip`> hsivonen: That sounds sensible - it's more useful if the validator works than if it doesn't work
  466. # [20:06] <Philip`> Then again, it's a validator so it's useful if it tells you when you're doing something invalid
  467. # [20:07] <Philip`> So, uh, I don't know
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  470. # [20:12] * Philip` discovers that a todo list which he's never going to read in the future is actually still useful - when the effort of writing the todo entry is comparable to the effort of actually doing the task, it encourages him to just do the task
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  525. # [22:57] <Hixie> hsivonen: i meant check the payload. i was thinking of making spaces legal, but a new attribute is a better idea.
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  540. # [23:25] <Philip`> Does anyone happen to know what license the Creative Commons licenses themselves are under?
  541. # [23:25] <Philip`> (e.g. is it allowed to take the CC license text and modify it a bit?)
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  544. # [23:34] <bradee-oh> Hixie: around?
  545. # [23:40] <Dashiva> Philip`: I don't see how a licence would need licensing. Patents, maybe, but copyright?
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  548. # [23:59] <Philip`> Dashiva: It needs copyright licensing as much as any other textual document needs it
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  550. # Session Close: Mon May 19 00:00:00 2008

The end :)