/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-05-19 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon May 19 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Philip`> The GPL explicitly allows copying and distribution but not modification (presumably to prevent the confusion of not-quite-GPL licenses based on it), but I can't find any similar information about CC licenses
  4. # [00:03] <Dashiva> Sure, but there's a significant difference between the specific text of the GPL preamble and saying "You are allowed to copy my stuff if you give props"
  5. # [00:04] <annevk> Hmm, MikeSmith' post makes me want to try Vim
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  7. # [00:04] <Dashiva> annevk: What are you using atm?
  8. # [00:06] <annevk> komodo and gedit
  9. # [00:07] <annevk> and whatever else has syntax highlighting and reasonable undo/redo history
  10. # [00:13] <annevk> I wonder how difficult it would be to write a plugin for Dreamweaver that uses Validator.nu
  11. # [00:13] <annevk> or for Komodo for that matter
  12. # [00:14] <jgraham> Komodo would be pretty easy I think.
  13. # [00:14] <jgraham> Plugins are javascript
  14. # [00:15] <jgraham> Has someone integrated validator.nu into emacs yet?
  15. # [00:16] <Dashiva> annevk: How about getting it into opera? ;)
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  18. # [00:25] <Philip`> jgraham: Someone must have written a JVM in Emacs Lisp, so you could just run the validator in that
  19. # [00:26] <jgraham> Philip`: Always the one with the over complex solution :)
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  25. # [00:33] <Hixie> bradee-oh: vaguely
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  29. # [00:35] <bradee-oh> Hixie: I emailed my question to whatwg... but it's kind of bewildering, I was hoping you could clear up some concerns in short fashion, if you're awake and all that stuff ;)
  30. # [00:36] <Hixie> as you note in your e-mail, that mailing list won't affect the webidl spec
  31. # [00:36] <Hixie> but yes, [XXX] is for making a [[Delete]] function work
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  33. # [00:36] <Hixie> but how does the WebIDL spec differ from what we had?
  34. # [00:37] <Hixie> the intent was not to not change anything substantial
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  36. # [00:37] <bradee-oh> Hixie: well, the problem is... the passage we had about enumerating the keys of a storage object... I can't find how the WebIDL spec keeps that functionality in place.
  37. # [00:37] <bradee-oh> maybe I'm misreading WebIDL or just glazing over the appropriate section
  38. # [00:37] <Hixie> oh hm
  39. # [00:38] * Hixie looks at webidl and es3
  40. # [00:39] <Hixie> uh yeah, oops
  41. # [00:39] <Hixie> webidl doesn't seem to support this
  42. # [00:39] <Hixie> will fix
  43. # [00:39] <bradee-oh> Hixie: woohoo!
  44. # [00:39] <bradee-oh> Hixie++
  45. # [00:39] <bradee-oh> though to be fair...
  46. # [00:39] <bradee-oh> Hixie-- for the original removal ;)
  47. # [00:40] <bradee-oh> Hixie++ // for being such a super guy
  48. # [00:40] <bradee-oh> thanks!
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  50. # [00:40] <Hixie> heycam: we have a problem with webidl
  51. # [00:41] <Hixie> heycam: there doesn't seem to be a way to say that all the members should be DontEnum but that a certain set of properties should be added (that aren't in the IDL) for the purposes of for-in enumeration
  52. # [00:42] <Hixie> bradee-oh: the fix might take a while, just assume it will happen. if you really need the spec fixed (e.g. because someone is arguing with you) then let me know in a couple of days if i haven't yet done it
  53. # [00:42] <Hixie> bradee-oh: (i'm in the middle of some other edits)
  54. # [00:43] <bradee-oh> Hixie: assurances that it will happen is good enough for me. I'll check up on it later this week. thanks!
  55. # [00:43] <Hixie> np
  56. # [00:46] <heycam> Hixie, yeah i just saw that mail from bradee-oh
  57. # [00:46] <Hixie> cool
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  79. # [03:37] <MikeSmith> annevk: fwiw, off-the-shelf highlighting in vim is quite good and pretty easily configurable, and it's undo/redo mechanism is significantly better than any other editor I've used
  80. # [03:38] <MikeSmith> it has unlimited undo, and a command, "earlier", that take a time argument - to take you back to the state of the buffer that point in time
  81. # [03:38] <MikeSmith> http://vimdoc.sourceforge.net/htmldoc/undo.html#:earlier
  82. # [03:42] <heycam> annevk, done the web idl abstract rewording you asked for earlier
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  168. # [10:46] * hendry wonders if there is a campaign to get rid of XSLT from browsers
  169. # [10:47] * Philip` hopes not, since he has some code that uses it
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  171. # [10:49] <Dashiva> What use is client-side XSLT apart from outsourcing the processing cycles to the browser? :)
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  173. # [10:50] <Philip`> The XML data could come from a remote server you don't have control over, so you can't do the XSLT on the server side
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  175. # [10:51] <Philip`> or you could want to transform a single XML file in several different ways, and not want to have the client download several slightly different XML files instead of just one
  176. # [10:54] <annevk> The remote server argument is slightly bogus without Access Control
  177. # [10:54] <Philip`> But it's less bogus with it :-)
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  180. # [10:56] <Dashiva> Besides, if you want XSLT on remote server content you can pull it to your local server once and do XSLT there, leaving you with local requests too. Double win :D
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  187. # [10:57] <annevk> Dashiva, it wouldn't be user-specific anymore in that case
  188. # [10:57] <Philip`> Dashiva: That's kind of nasty for performance and cost and security
  189. # [10:58] <Philip`> Also it requires too much cleverness on the server - it's much nicer when you can just serve static files
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  194. # [11:10] <Philip`> hendry: About http://natalian.org/archives/2008/05/15/10-years-of-xml/ "Near impossible to diff (and nicely version control)" - there's research like http://www.seas.upenn.edu/~harmony/ that seems kind of relevant for that (though I've no idea how well it'd work in practice)
  195. # [11:12] <hendry> well I still think XSLT is unneccessary bloat in the browser
  196. # [11:12] <hendry> i've personally since very few websites use it. i wonder if there are some stats of how much of the "web" uses that publishing technique
  197. # [11:12] <MikeSmith> hendry: It's a moot point now
  198. # [11:13] <MikeSmith> and I reckon we've got a lot of other examples of unnecessary bloat in browsers
  199. # [11:14] <MikeSmith> anyway, it gives developers another choice
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  210. # [11:20] <MikeSmith> hendry: a rant about XML can't be complete without specific mention of Draconian error handling
  211. # [11:21] * Joins: othermaciej__ (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  212. # [11:21] <hendry> MikeSmith: that's Hixie's rant :)
  213. # [11:21] <MikeSmith> dunno if you've seen this:
  214. # [11:21] <MikeSmith> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/DraconianErrorHandling
  215. # [11:23] <hendry> MikeSmith: ok ok, i'll link it :)
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  218. # [11:24] <hsivonen> In the early days of Atom, I disagreed with markp on XML error handling.
  219. # [11:24] <hsivonen> I was wrong. He was right.
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  224. # [11:25] <MikeSmith> hendry: fwiw, judging popularity of XML by how many people attended one session at XTech 2008 doesn't seem like any kind of real indicator at all (since there were only 100 or so total attendees at XTech anyway)
  225. # [11:27] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah, Mark was the real pioneer in stating very clearly and emphatically and publicly about why it didn't and couldn't work
  226. # [11:27] <hsivonen> (although writing a liberal feed parser isn't the full answer. We still need a spec on how to be liberal in an interoperable way.)
  227. # [11:27] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: true
  228. # [11:27] <Philip`> The only reliable way to measure popularity is Google search result counts, and then you'll find that XML is 98% as popular as God
  229. # [11:27] <MikeSmith> heh
  230. # [11:28] * MikeSmith heads off to write a rant about God
  231. # [11:28] <MikeSmith> speaking of God, the real rant I'd write if I had the time is, Please don't get religous
  232. # [11:29] <MikeSmith> especially don't get religious about technologies
  233. # [11:29] <MikeSmith> either way, good or bad
  234. # [11:29] <MikeSmith> because nobody really cares about your religious beliefs
  235. # [11:30] <Philip`> What do you mean by "religious"?
  236. # [11:30] <Lachy_> MikeSmith, it would be better if people didn't get religious about anything at all, not just technology. Even religion
  237. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> Lachy_: amen
  238. # [11:30] * Lachy_ is now known as Lachy
  239. # [11:30] <zcorpan> Lachy: what if being religious makes one happier?
  240. # [11:30] * Philip` assumes people tend not to literally worship technologies
  241. # [11:31] <toolskyn> Philip`: according to googlefight.com, xml is actually more popular than god
  242. # [11:31] <MikeSmith> Philip`: religous = dogmatic support/rejection of particular ideas/technologies/whatever
  243. # [11:31] <Lachy> zcorpan, getting high makes some people happier. That doesn't make it a good thing to do.
  244. # [11:32] <Philip`> What if you being religious makes everyone else happier (because e.g. it discourages you from harming them)?
  245. # [11:32] <Dashiva> Crushing your enemies, having them driven before you, and hearing the lamentations of their women also makes some people happy
  246. # [11:32] <zcorpan> Lachy: getting high has long-term physical damage, i don't see being religious having such consequences
  247. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> Lachy: getting high is a good thing to do, actually
  248. # [11:32] <Lachy> Philip`, the argument from morality you're partially using is bogus
  249. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> more people should do it
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  251. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> I have personal empirical evidence that getting high is a good thing
  252. # [11:33] <jgraham> Being religious might have long term damage to society
  253. # [11:34] <hsivonen> there seems to be a clash between screen readers and hand ergonomics
  254. # [11:34] <Lachy> zcorpan, religion gets in the way of progress, particularly science and education, causes more wars than anything else in history, and is overall a big waste of time.
  255. # [11:34] <hsivonen> the default key bindings of both Orca and NVDA suck on a keyboard that doesn't have an Insert key
  256. # [11:34] <MikeSmith> Lachy: religion unites people toward common goald
  257. # [11:34] <MikeSmith> goal
  258. # [11:34] <MikeSmith> goalsssss
  259. # [11:34] <MikeSmith> and against common enemies
  260. # [11:34] <Dashiva> MikeSmith: Uniting with the common goal of not uniting with other people? ;)
  261. # [11:35] <MikeSmith> e.g. against XML, or against "bad HTML"
  262. # [11:36] <MikeSmith> or against "lazy authors" and in support of... whatever the alternative is ("educating authors"?)
  263. # [11:36] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  264. # [11:36] <Philip`> Lachy: It seems to have encouraged progress in architecture, given how most major building projects in the past have either been for war or religion
  265. # [11:36] <Dashiva> In support of requiring a HTML author's licence
  266. # [11:37] <MikeSmith> Dashiva: great idea
  267. # [11:37] <MikeSmith> we should issue those
  268. # [11:37] <MikeSmith> like 007 license to kill
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  271. # [11:38] <MikeSmith> instead, license to write HTML that actually works in browsers
  272. # [11:38] <MikeSmith> and that parses interoperably
  273. # [11:38] <Dashiva> With licence to parse unambiguously
  274. # [11:38] <Philip`> If you get caught with overlapping tags then you get 3 points on your license
  275. # [11:39] <hsivonen> Philip`: you mean like <i <b> >? :-)
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  277. # [11:39] <Dashiva> That would be an interesting mental exercise, write up penalty guidelines for a HTML licence
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  279. # [11:39] <toolskyn> we should have one of these IE 'friendly warnings' about code written by a unlicenced author
  280. # [11:39] <Dashiva> How many points for not quoting an attribute containing spaces?
  281. # [11:40] <Philip`> hsivonen: No :-p
  282. # [11:40] <Philip`> hsivonen: (but it's not overlapping elements, since elements are just part of a tree and there's no concept of overlapping, and I can't remember a better term)
  283. # [11:40] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  284. # [11:40] <Dashiva> interleaved?
  285. # [11:40] <Dashiva> incestuous?
  286. # [11:41] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  287. # [11:41] <MikeSmith> "incestuous" is a much better term -- more intriguing
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  289. # [11:41] <Philip`> I suppose "misnested" works
  290. # [11:41] <Dashiva> It does cover the "My parent is my sibling" thing
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  293. # [11:42] <hsivonen> hmm. I getting tree builder test failures again
  294. # [11:42] <Philip`> ("... [this algorithm] has been dubbed the "adoption agency algorithm" (in contrast with other possibly algorithms for dealing with misnested content, which included the "incest algorithm", the "secret affair algorithm", and the "Heisenberg algorithm").")
  295. # [11:42] <hsivonen> presumably, there has been a reason for the tests to change
  296. # [11:43] <hsivonen> daytime soap opera algorithm
  297. # [11:43] <MikeSmith> the "red-headed stepchild" algorithm
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  299. # [11:45] <MikeSmith> the red-headed stepchild metaphor is maybe a good metaphor for how some view the work on spec'ing text/html and Web apps
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  302. # [11:46] * hsivonen doesn't like hair-colorist algorithm names
  303. # [11:46] <hsivonen> http://pastebin.ca/1022593
  304. # [11:46] <hsivonen> those are the errors I'm getting
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  308. # [11:51] <hsivonen> hmm. I've made marquee scoping...
  309. # [11:51] <hsivonen> but still </div> closes the marquee...
  310. # [11:51] <hsivonen> hmm...
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  314. # [11:53] <MikeSmith> I have a request that if somebody here (Philip`? or of jgraham is listening) who has commit access to the html5lib sources could consider, I'd appreciate it
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  317. # [11:54] <MikeSmith> some time last year, Mark P. commented out this line in html5parser.py
  318. # [11:55] <MikeSmith> sys.stderr.write("Warning: Undefined behaviour for start tag %s"%name)
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  320. # [11:55] <MikeSmith> but for whatever reason didn't comment out this one:
  321. # [11:55] <MikeSmith> sys.stderr.write("Warning: Undefined behaviour for end tag %s"%name)
  322. # [11:56] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  323. # [11:56] <MikeSmith> wondering of somebody could comment that out in the source
  324. # [11:56] <MikeSmith> or at least put at "\n" on the end of it if it's kept in
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  344. # [12:01] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Is there an easy way to make that message get printed?
  345. # [12:02] <MikeSmith> Philip`: put a <section> element into your source
  346. # [12:02] <MikeSmith> or any other new element that Hixie hasn't yet added to the parsing algorithm
  347. # [12:02] <MikeSmith> e.g., <header>
  348. # [12:02] * Joins: othermaciej__ (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  349. # [12:03] <Philip`> Ah, yes
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  355. # [12:04] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Committed
  356. # [12:04] <MikeSmith> Philip`: cheers
  357. # [12:04] <Philip`> (since it looks like http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/html5lib/changeset/988 just forgot about the end tag case)
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  361. # [12:05] <MikeSmith> Philip`: I guess I can actually see some value in having that message emitted, even for non-debugging purposes
  362. # [12:05] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  363. # [12:06] <MikeSmith> but for consistency at least, if it's already commented out for the start-tag case, seems it is right to have it out for the end-tag case
  364. # [12:06] <hsivonen> hmm. I have a string interning bug with special legacy names like marquee and listing
  365. # [12:06] <Philip`> MikeSmith: I'm not sure I see the value, since there's nothing a user of the library can do about the issue
  366. # [12:07] <Philip`> (and since it parses pretty much like the user would expect)
  367. # [12:07] <MikeSmith> Philip`: OK
  368. # [12:08] <Philip`> But someone could point out the value to me :-)
  369. # [12:09] <hsivonen> so is there a one-stop place for finding all the parsing algorithm-sensitive obsolete elements?
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  374. # [12:13] <Philip`> hsivonen: Like extracting all the element name strings listed in the spec?
  375. # [12:13] <hsivonen> Philip`: yeah
  376. # [12:13] <hsivonen> Philip`: I extracted all the names that the non-parsing part of the spec defines as conforming
  377. # [12:14] <hsivonen> now I manually added marquee, nobr, wbr, listing and plaintext because those failed test cases
  378. # [12:17] * hsivonen landed a huge pile of refactored and new parser code
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  380. # [12:18] <Philip`> hsivonen: applet, basefont, bgsound, big, center, dir, font, frame, frameset, hidden, image, isindex, listing, marquee, nobr, noembed, noframes, plaintext, s, spacer, strike, tt, u, wbr, xmp
  381. # [12:18] <hsivonen> Philip`: thank you
  382. # [12:19] <Philip`> are the things I see as /"[a-z0-9]+"/ in the tree constructor spec as of some months ago that are not in the list of conforming elements
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  385. # [12:19] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  386. # [12:19] <Philip`> (though I'm not totally positive I didn't accidentally miss any)
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  390. # [12:20] <hsivonen> "hidden"???
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  392. # [12:20] <Philip`> Uh
  393. # [12:20] <hsivonen> is that a false positive on the attribute?
  394. # [12:20] <Philip`> Yes
  395. # [12:21] <Philip`> I removed most of the false positives but missed that one
  396. # [12:21] <hsivonen> ok. thanks
  397. # [12:22] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  398. # [12:22] <hsivonen> Philip`: thanks. my list lacked bgsound and noembed still
  399. # [12:23] <hsivonen> fortunately, the additions didn't break my magic hash function
  400. # [12:24] * Philip` sees that the grass in his garden is now significantly taller than a cat lying down
  401. # [12:24] * jwalden wonders why freenode just dropped like a rock
  402. # [12:24] * hsivonen didn't notice freenode dropping
  403. # [12:24] <Philip`> jwalden: Just looked like a minor netsplit to me
  404. # [12:24] <Philip`> 11:16 -!- Netsplit wolfe.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: mpt, jwalden, weinig
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  406. # [12:24] <jwalden> interesting
  407. # [12:25] <jwalden> from my pov everyone else dropped but those three :-)
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  409. # [12:25] <mpt> we're special
  410. # [12:25] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  411. # [12:26] * Philip` wonders if IRC networks all use a spanning tree between servers, rather than something more robust
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  422. # [13:13] <zcorpan> othermaciej: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Chtml%20test%3Da%3E%3Cscript%3Edocument.documentElement.setAttributeNS(''%2C'test'%2C'b')%3C%2Fscript%3E
  423. # [13:13] <zcorpan> othermaciej: results in duplicate attributes in webkit
  424. # [13:14] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
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  426. # [13:15] <zcorpan> for some reason i thought the dom didn't check for duplicate attributes with different prefixes
  427. # [13:17] <othermaciej_> zcorpan: if you make the namespace parameter null it works, so the bug seems to be treating empty string and null differently
  428. # [13:17] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  429. # [13:17] <othermaciej> "works" == adds the attribute only once
  430. # [13:18] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) (Client Quit)
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  433. # [13:26] <Philip`> Hmm, I have a site which uses TinyMCE so non-technical users can edit bits of content, and I've been asked to remove the part of the TinyMCE image upload dialog that asks for alt text because it's too confusing for users
  434. # [13:27] * Joins: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
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  436. # [13:28] <hsivonen> argh. my token name list is lacking the ruby stuff
  437. # [13:29] <jmb> Philip`: is that merely an interface issue, or is the concept of alt text causing the confusion?
  438. # [13:30] <Philip`> jmb: I'm not quite sure what the distinction is - do you mean could the problem be fixed by changing the UI to still ask for alt text but in a different way (as opposed to fixing the interface to simply not ask for it at all)?
  439. # [13:31] <jmb> that's the distinction I'm interested in, yes
  440. # [13:33] <zcorpan> Philip`: perhaps there should be a button "No images view" which replaces all images with editable boxes
  441. # [13:33] <Philip`> I can't think of any way the UI could ask for alt text without having to explain to users the concepts like the purpose of it and why they should bother, and I can't think of any way to explain that without confusing or scaring the users who are just wanting to stick an image in there
  442. # [13:33] <zcorpan> with an explanation that search engines and blind people will see that text instead of the images
  443. # [13:34] <Philip`> zcorpan: That sounds too hard to implement - I can cope with changing dialog boxes, but I don't want to fiddle with the TinyMCE code in any non-trivial way
  444. # [13:34] <hsivonen> Philip`: I think a big problem with the whole alt debate is wanting to build tool UI for it but not wanting to explain to users what it is about
  445. # [13:35] <hsivonen> which is why the V.nu Image Report actually mentions accessibility in the UI text
  446. # [13:35] <zcorpan> Philip`: but i think it would be better UI than dialog boxes
  447. # [13:36] <Philip`> (In this case, it's unlikely that many people will ever view the content that was created, and the creators usually won't care about search engines or blind people - they just get the satisfaction of making their own text appear on the site)
  448. # [13:37] <zcorpan> if they don't care then forcing them will produce bad alt text anyway
  449. # [13:37] <hsivonen> argh. the SVG stuff requires storing both the lowercase name and the case-corrected name on the stack
  450. # [13:37] <hsivonen> bad
  451. # [13:37] <Philip`> zcorpan: My definition of "better" includes "possible to implement without excessive effort" :-)
  452. # [13:37] <Philip`> hsivonen: Can you store just the case-corrected name and use case-insensitive comparison operators in appropriate places?
  453. # [13:37] * Joins: mcarter_ (n=mcarter@pool-72-87-174-39.lsanca.btas.verizon.net)
  454. # [13:37] <hsivonen> Philip`: that would kill perf
  455. # [13:38] <hsivonen> Philip`: actual tree builders won't need to keep the case-corrected string around, but to implement streaming SAX, it has to stay around
  456. # [13:39] <hsivonen> so another round of changing interfaces it is...
  457. # [13:39] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: while recognizing the general principle of trying to avoid additional options/pragmas whenever possible, I continue to think a pretty effective UI for the specific alt case (and perhaps only the alt case) would be an option saying, "Don't show me error messages about missing alt attributes."
  458. # [13:39] <zcorpan> hsivonen: would making the tokenizer case-preserving and having the parser do case-insensitive checks kill perf?
  459. # [13:40] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I'm not sure
  460. # [13:40] <hsivonen> zcorpan: probably not if the tree builder dispatches on magic enums instead of strings
  461. # [13:41] <hsivonen> currently, mine dispatches on interned string identity
  462. # [13:41] <hsivonen> but I want to change it to use magic numbers instead
  463. # [13:41] <hsivonen> I'm just unsure if today is the right time to do it
  464. # [13:41] <hsivonen> that is, will Hixie change stuff in a way that requires me to reassign the magic numbers
  465. # [13:41] * Quits: webben_ (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-fb3e33f3df00d141)
  466. # [13:42] <zcorpan> probably :P
  467. # [13:46] <Philip`> That sounds like a sensible answer whenever the question is "will Hixie cause pain to an implementor like me"
  468. # [13:47] <hsivonen> that is, are there elements that are safe to coalesce into one enum value?
  469. # [13:48] <hsivonen> td and th seem to always go together
  470. # [13:48] <hsivonen> and thead, tbody and tfoot
  471. # [13:48] <hsivonen> but are those all?
  472. # [13:48] <hsivonen> oh and h1-h6
  473. # [13:48] <Philip`> What about things like b and i?
  474. # [13:49] <hsivonen> now I have to run some regexps on my code to find out
  475. # [13:49] <Philip`> Or: If you coalesce h1-h6, how do you handle <h1>foo</h6> ?
  476. # [13:49] <hsivonen> Philip`: I'm thinking about coalescing what the spec always has under one case
  477. # [13:50] <Philip`> Ah
  478. # [13:50] * Philip` could probably derive that automatically from his OCamlified version of the spec, except it's old and incomplete and currently broken :-(
  479. # [13:51] <hsivonen> I could derive it almost automatically if I hadn't forgotten Perl as much as I have :-(
  480. # [13:51] * Quits: mcarter__ (n=mcarter@pool-72-87-174-36.lsanca.btas.verizon.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  481. # [13:52] <Philip`> TIMTOWTDI, so if you forget several ways then there's usually still another way to solve any problem with Perl
  482. # [13:54] * Joins: aaronlev_ (n=chatzill@e176243007.adsl.alicedsl.de)
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  485. # [13:55] <Dashiva> Philip`: And then you have two problems.
  486. # [13:57] <Philip`> Dashiva: That's what one-liners are for - once you've solved your original problem using Perl, you just discard the Perl into the murky depths of your .bash_history and it's no longer a problem
  487. # [13:58] <Lachy> LOL, it's funny when comment spammers try to post on-topic comments to the whatwg blog, yet fail miserably :-)
  488. # [13:58] <Lachy> this is in the moderation queue for the Vim article. "Your article is very interesting, Checking means verify the file. Thank you for giving this information."
  489. # [14:01] <Philip`> Blogs should just not accept URLs in comments at all
  490. # [14:01] <Dashiva> It's too bad spam bot authors have no sense of humor, or they could use "Your ideas are intriguing and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter."
  491. # [14:01] <Philip`> (including not having an explicit "website" field for commenters)
  492. # [14:06] <zcorpan> Philip`: then spammers will just write plain text URLs
  493. # [14:07] <zcorpan> Philip`: and people who actually want to link to relevant things it will just be annoying to deal with plain text URLs
  494. # [14:07] <Dashiva> We'll avoid the whole target/window.open spectacle, though :)
  495. # [14:13] * Quits: aaronlev (n=chatzill@e176243007.adsl.alicedsl.de) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  496. # [14:20] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  497. # [14:20] <zcorpan> what Julian Reschke suggests for xhr seems to go against the priority of constituencies principle
  498. # [14:21] <zcorpan> http://www.w3.org/mid/48314BE6.9060708@gmx.de
  499. # [14:21] <hsivonen> sigh
  500. # [14:24] * Quits: jwalden (n=waldo@RANDOM-THREE-O-EIGHT.MIT.EDU) (Remote closed the connection)
  501. # [14:28] <hsivonen> Hixie: any particular reason why pre and listing don't go together when breaking out of foreign lands?
  502. # [14:29] <zcorpan> hsivonen: because pre is common and listing is not?
  503. # [14:29] <hsivonen> yeah. I'm going to send email
  504. # [14:31] <Lachy> Philip`, URLs and email addresses provide a convenient mechanism for giving automatic approval or rejection of repeat commenters, based on their prior comment history
  505. # [14:31] <Lachy> it also allows commenters to be reliably identified and help them become known if they're seen to consistently write good comments
  506. # [14:32] <Philip`> Lachy: But I could trivially write a comment and use someone else's email address and URL
  507. # [14:32] <Lachy> surprisingly, few spammers actually seem to do that
  508. # [14:32] <Philip`> so "reliably identified" seems untrue
  509. # [14:33] <Lachy> although there are times where trolls will falsely post as someone else, it doesn't happen frequently enough to be of great concern
  510. # [14:33] <Lachy> I only know it to have happened once to me in all my years of reading and posting comments on blogs
  511. # [14:33] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-d3c62de486e44479)
  512. # [14:34] <zcorpan> readers should be able to report bad comments
  513. # [14:34] <zcorpan> i think that results in less overhead to deal with comments
  514. # [14:34] <Philip`> Then spammers will start spamming the 'report bad comment' feature
  515. # [14:35] <Lachy> rating systems like that are used on slashdot, youtube, digg, etc.
  516. # [14:35] <Lachy> They're not entirely successful
  517. # [14:35] <Philip`> Some much less successful than others
  518. # [14:35] <zcorpan> ok
  519. # [14:35] <Philip`> (The quality of comments on Slashdot does seem somewhat higher than on Youtube)
  520. # [14:36] <Lachy> I'm surprised slashdot has done little to actually filter out the goatse spam.
  521. # [14:36] <Lachy> Philip`, that's because the intelligence of slashdot readers is probably, on average, greater than that of your average youtube user
  522. # [14:38] <Philip`> Lachy: It seems to have pretty much died out by itself, just by being modded to -1 all the time so normal users will never see it
  523. # [14:39] <Lachy> I always have all comments shown. I don't like comments being automatically hidden, since it messes up threading and makes me wonder what I'm missing out on
  524. # [14:40] <Philip`> You're missing out on the goatse spam :-p
  525. # [14:40] <Lachy> sometimes the troll comments are funny
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  527. # [14:46] * hsivonen identified 52 magic enum items for the tree builder
  528. # [14:46] <hsivonen> of which 14 group more than one element name
  529. # [14:54] <annevk> implementing SVG for demonstration purposes?
  530. # [14:54] <hsivonen> annevk: I'm preparing to
  531. # [14:55] <hsivonen> annevk: I'm doing architectural changes that make the SVG case tweaking stuff not suck quite that badly for perf
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  535. # [15:00] <gsnedders> Internet at home is broken :(
  536. # [15:01] <Philip`> Try your neighbours' internets
  537. # [15:02] <gsnedders> All require passwords (in terms of wireless, at least)
  538. # [15:02] * gsnedders is in café in town
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  540. # [15:03] <Philip`> They might be using WEP, which doesn't really count as a password ;-)
  541. # [15:03] <gsnedders> :)
  542. # [15:03] <Lachy> gsnedders, most people use very simple passwords. It shouldn't be too hard to guess, or even crack
  543. # [15:03] <gsnedders> Lachy: too much effort :(
  544. # [15:04] <gsnedders> it makes no sense, because I get to SHOWTIME, before it fails to get any further.
  545. # [15:04] <Lachy> is it less effort to walk to the cafe, than it is to take 5 minutes to crack a password?
  546. # [15:04] * Joins: mpt_ (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  547. # [15:04] <gsnedders> And BT being typically BT are refusing to do anything about it and are blaming us.
  548. # [15:04] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  549. # [15:04] <gsnedders> Lachy: It means trying to crack the password. :P
  550. # [15:05] * mpt_ is now known as mpt
  551. # [15:05] <gsnedders> Lachy: and it's only 50m away from school
  552. # [15:06] <Philip`> A couple of wireless routers around my house are unsecured and have login/password "admin"/"admin"
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The end :)