/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-05-21 / end

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31. # May 21 02:07:02 --- You are now known as MikeSmith
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33. # May 21 02:16:13 <MikeSmith> mcarter_: have you done a write-up anywhere yet on your implementation related to the connection API?
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35. # May 21 02:18:20 <takkaria> PlotKit is interesting, but also lacking in a bunch of features
36. # May 21 02:18:29 <takkaria> for example, vertical gridlines
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46. # May 21 02:58:50 --> You are now talking on #whatwg
47. # May 21 02:58:50 --- Topic for #whatwg is WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!
48. # May 21 02:58:50 --- Topic for #whatwg set by gsnedders at Wed Dec 19 05:41:19 2007
49. # May 21 02:58:50 --- Notify: hsivonen is online (card.freenode.net).
50. # May 21 02:58:50 --- Notify: annevk is online (card.freenode.net).
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57. # May 21 03:36:38 <Hixie> annevk: please send feedback to the list, not the irc channel :-)
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59. # May 21 03:51:54 <gsnedders> This internet access saga is truly bizarre (but it works again now, so hey)
60. # May 21 03:52:21 <annevk> Hixie, ok, e-mailed you + www-archive
61. # May 21 03:58:02 <gsnedders> It feels weird sending emails to Hixie without www-archive :P
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73. # May 21 05:03:31 <Hixie> annevk: thanks
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85. # May 21 05:42:50 <annevk> geez
86. # May 21 05:42:59 <annevk> twitter is slower than ever (besides when it's unresponsive)
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104. # May 21 06:07:33 <Lachy> Woo Hoo! This book is finally available for pre-order. http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-HTML-Reference-Ian-Lloyd/dp/0980285887/
105. # May 21 06:07:44 <Lachy> I was one of the technical reviewers for it as it was being written
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107. # May 21 06:12:50 <Philip`> Lachy: What makes it ultimater than the thousands of other HTML books? :-)
108. # May 21 06:13:13 <Lachy> cause I reviewed it and know it's good :-)
109. # May 21 06:13:57 <Philip`> That kind of appeal to authority is not very convincing :-p
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111. # May 21 06:15:41 <Lachy> For one reason, unlike many other books that teach people to use XHTML, this one actually teaches both HTML and XHTML and gives good advice about the use of both.
112. # May 21 06:16:40 <Lachy> there's a public beta online here http://reference.sitepoint.com/html
113. # May 21 06:18:34 <Lachy> hmm. It seems to be missing entity references.
114. # May 21 06:18:48 <Lachy> oh well, that can be added to the next revision
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116. # May 21 06:27:46 <Lachy> Hixie, yt?
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119. # May 21 06:29:31 <Lachy> Hixie, the entity reference table in the spec is missing the <tbody> after the first row
120. # May 21 06:31:47 <Hixie> w3c or whatwg?
121. # May 21 06:33:10 <Lachy> whatwg
122. # May 21 06:33:19 <Lachy> I didn't check the w3c copy of the spec
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124. # May 21 06:33:43 <Lachy> I only noticed in the whatwg copy cause I was copying the table for use in the html authoring guide
125. # May 21 06:33:43 <annevk> w3c too iirc
126. # May 21 06:33:56 <Lachy> I'm going to rewrite it to make it more author friendly
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128. # May 21 06:34:27 <Hixie> oh, i see what you're saying
129. # May 21 06:34:28 <Hixie> odd
130. # May 21 06:34:34 <Hixie> if possible, can you send mail?
131. # May 21 06:34:38 <Hixie> i'm in the middle of a painful edit
132. # May 21 06:34:38 <Lachy> sure
133. # May 21 06:34:56 <Hixie> thanks
134. # May 21 06:38:01 <Lachy> Hixie, do you use a script to generate that table?
135. # May 21 06:38:42 <Hixie> yes
136. # May 21 06:38:45 <Lachy> Can I get a copy of it, so I can modify it to generate a more appropriate table for the author guide.
137. # May 21 06:39:34 <Hixie> it's one of my first ever python scripts, so i dunno :-)
138. # May 21 06:39:44 <Lachy> LOL
139. # May 21 06:40:03 <Hixie> http://junkyard.damowmow.com/322
140. # May 21 06:40:40 <Hixie> that script is then called using this bash magic:
141. # May 21 06:40:41 <Hixie> wget -o /dev/null -N http://www.w3.org/2003/entities/2007xml/unicode.xml
142. # May 21 06:40:41 <Hixie> [ unicode.xml -nt entities-unicode.inc ] && nice -n 19 python .entity-processor.py > .new-entities-unicode.inc
143. # May 21 06:40:44 <Hixie> [ -s .new-entities-unicode.inc ] && mv -f .new-entities-unicode.inc entities-unicode.inc
144. # May 21 06:40:47 <Hixie> cat entities-* | sort | uniq > entities.inc
145. # May 21 06:40:52 <Lachy> thanks
146. # May 21 06:41:25 <Hixie> and entities-* matches the entities-unicode.inc file mentioned above and entities-legacy.inc
147. # May 21 06:41:35 <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/entities-legacy.inc
148. # May 21 06:41:43 <Hixie> which is a hard-coded list of entities
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150. # May 21 06:43:16 <annevk> Hixie, doing more work on sandboxing?
151. # May 21 06:43:21 <Hixie> yeah
152. # May 21 06:43:37 <Hixie> the http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/index-diff file shows what i have so far
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155. # May 21 06:47:23 <annevk> Hixie, for seamless it should probably say something about initial containing block and such too
156. # May 21 06:47:31 <Hixie> othermaciej: the problem with making item() available, etc, is that you lose the ability to use the data-item="" attribute
157. # May 21 06:47:36 <Hixie> it does
158. # May 21 06:47:49 <Hixie> unless i messed up the commit
159. # May 21 06:48:11 <Hixie> search for "initial containing block" in html5 and there are two occurances, both doing what you just asked for :-)
160. # May 21 06:48:49 <annevk> it sets the height tozero...
161. # May 21 06:48:58 <Hixie> right
162. # May 21 06:49:04 <annevk> it doesn't entirely remove it
163. # May 21 06:49:07 <annevk> hmm
164. # May 21 06:49:10 <Hixie> you can't remove it
165. # May 21 06:49:16 <Hixie> that would break css in pretty fundamental ways
166. # May 21 06:49:21 <Hixie> it's like saying we should remove the root element
167. # May 21 06:49:24 <Hixie> what would it even mean?
168. # May 21 06:49:46 <annevk> it means that the initial containing block of the nested browsing context is that of the browsing context
169. # May 21 06:49:57 <annevk> well, that's what I thought it would specify
170. # May 21 06:50:09 <othermaciej> Hixie: yeah, I can see why it could cause conflicts
171. # May 21 06:50:27 <Hixie> annevk: wow, that would be weird
172. # May 21 06:51:14 <annevk> now absolutely positioning stuff still goes against the nested browsing context initial containing block, which is not what you want (not always anyway)
173. # May 21 06:51:52 <Hixie> why wouldn't it be what you want?
174. # May 21 06:52:02 <Hixie> it's still an iframe
175. # May 21 06:52:06 <Hixie> you can't render outside the iframe
176. # May 21 06:52:16 <Hixie> if you could you'd be open to all kinds of weird hacks
177. # May 21 06:52:45 <annevk> if you could you'd have the client-side includes people have been looking for
178. # May 21 06:53:41 <Hixie> i don't think client side include requests have really been looking for ways to render outside the box
179. # May 21 06:53:50 <Hixie> they mostly just want to include their navigation links or header or footer
180. # May 21 06:58:20 <annevk> btw, in the short definition for the sandbox attribute you should note that giving it values means you lift restrictions
181. # May 21 06:59:38 <roc> I prefer what Hixie currently has
182. # May 21 07:00:18 <roc> we don't want to make handling of the IFRAMEd content too weird
183. # May 21 07:00:28 <annevk> Hixie, maybe split "xxx_origin_please_suggest_a_better_name" into "dom-access" and "storage-access"
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186. # May 21 07:10:16 <Hixie> annevk: sandbox="dom-access" doesn't convey what it does, since even with sandbox="", DOM access is still possible, just not from other documents, even if their URIs are in the same origin
187. # May 21 07:10:49 <Hixie> annevk: and storage access (and XHR, etc) is allowed if scripting is enabled, it just doesn't work (since the document isn't in the expected origin)
188. # May 21 07:12:23 <annevk> localStorage would actually still work and end up in void, or not?
189. # May 21 07:12:59 <annevk> maybe just "default-origin" or some such then?
190. # May 21 07:14:07 <annevk> Hixie, btw, these two comments make it much more clear for some reason what the attribute is supposed to do then the note in the spec
191. # May 21 07:14:38 <Hixie> yeah i dunno how to explain it
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195. # May 21 07:16:24 <annevk> maybe localStorage should fail if the origin is an identifier and not a tuple
196. # May 21 07:20:17 <annevk> hmm, StorageEvent.uri should be StorageEvent.url ...
197. # May 21 07:22:20 <roc> one day I'll have to figure out what the difference between a URL and a URI is. Wouldn't want to embarrass myself in public
198. # May 21 07:22:43 <Dashiva> Don't forget IRI
199. # May 21 07:22:53 <roc> oh yeah, I discovered those recently. Mad
200. # May 21 07:22:54 <hober> and URN
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202. # May 21 07:24:42 <Philip`> "URI" is the term you use when talking to standards people so you look clever, and "URL" is the term you use when talking to normal people so you're understood
203. # May 21 07:25:52 <andersca> lol
204. # May 21 07:27:41 <annevk> <input type=url> was at one point type=uri...
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206. # May 21 07:28:29 <Hixie> i plan to change the spec to use the term "url"
207. # May 21 07:28:39 <Hixie> and just define "url" in the terminology section as being an iri
208. # May 21 07:29:03 <Hixie> i expect this will cause the nitpickers to have enough heart attacks to keep them off our back for a few months
209. # May 21 07:29:30 <Hixie> (actually, not just an iri. it will depend on the character encoding in weird ways.)
210. # May 21 07:29:51 <Dashiva> Hixie: Also define uri as url, then
211. # May 21 07:30:16 <annevk> hmm, URL5 :)
212. # May 21 07:30:52 <Hixie> Dashiva: what does that mean?
213. # May 21 07:36:57 <Dashiva> Hixie: Just in case there's a URI left in there somewhere, it should be defined :)
214. # May 21 07:38:29 <annevk> othermaciej, there's a difference between style.foo = x and storage.foo = x
215. # May 21 07:38:50 <annevk> othermaciej, for style.foo to work foo has to bedefined on the CSS2Properties interface
216. # May 21 07:39:28 <annevk> othermaciej, storage.foo will always work (though maybe not when foo matches some existing member)
217. # May 21 07:40:19 <Hixie> Dashiva: it's easy to ensure there isn't :-)
218. # May 21 07:40:38 * Hixie is utterly tangled up in a mess of defining scripting enabled/disabled on a per-browsing-context basis instead of globally
219. # May 21 07:41:14 <othermaciej> annevk: sure, it is a predefined list instead of completely open-ended, but CSS styles do have the concept of adding and removing properties, and those properties are reflected directly as JS-level properties
220. # May 21 07:41:38 <Hixie> i agree with anne that it's not the same
221. # May 21 07:41:46 <Hixie> "'opacity' in style" is always true
222. # May 21 07:41:56 <Hixie> it doesn't become false when the property is removed
223. # May 21 07:42:01 <roc> "removeProperty" is a misnomer from the JS point of view
224. # May 21 07:42:27 <Hixie> i'm not wedded to the 'delete' syntax, but i think your argument that it's the wrong semantic is not valid
225. # May 21 07:42:50 <othermaciej> the style declaration example is not to illustrate that it is the wrong semantic
226. # May 21 07:43:09 <othermaciej> it is to illustrate that, in general, you can reasonably have custom getters and setters without custom deleters
227. # May 21 07:43:13 <othermaciej> and this will not confuse people
228. # May 21 07:43:28 <Hixie> i don't think it would confuse people
229. # May 21 07:43:37 <othermaciej> that was roc's argument
230. # May 21 07:43:45 <othermaciej> that if you don't have custom delete, you shouldn't even have custom get and set
231. # May 21 07:43:49 <Hixie> i just think that in this particular case, it makes sense to offer custom delete
232. # May 21 07:44:09 <roc> it's custom *add* that I really think deserves a matching custom delete
233. # May 21 07:44:18 <Dashiva> I assume setting it to undefined to delete was considered and rejected, what was the reasoning?
234. # May 21 07:44:39 <Hixie> setting it to "undefined" would set it to the string "undefined"
235. # May 21 07:44:44 <othermaciej> set and add have the same syntax in JS
236. # May 21 07:44:44 <Hixie> as currently defined
237. # May 21 07:45:08 <Hixie> othermaciej: style.foo = 'baz' is matched by delete style.foo, for non-valid values of 'foo'
238. # May 21 07:45:40 <roc> of course they have the same syntax, that's part of the problem ehre
239. # May 21 07:46:23 <othermaciej> Hixie: or indeed, for any object it is true that when the setter does nothing special, delete works normally
240. # May 21 07:47:23 <Hixie> right
241. # May 21 07:47:24 <Hixie> so why is this different?
242. # May 21 07:47:33 <othermaciej> well, it's not usually the case that when the setter *does* do something special, delete still works normally
243. # May 21 07:48:02 <othermaciej> (or beyond that, delete does something correspondingly special)
244. # May 21 07:48:56 <Hixie> i don't think we've ever really had an equivalent interface before
245. # May 21 07:49:08 <Hixie> except maybe NamedNodeMap, which imho is poorly designed
246. # May 21 07:49:26 <Hixie> but like i said, i don't really care much about this
247. # May 21 07:50:27 <othermaciej> I don't care that much about the semantic argument, except that I think having custom delete is a small improvement, and supporting it correctly is potentially a nontrivial burden
248. # May 21 07:50:28 <Dashiva> Are there any common cases where you'd be deleting stuff often?
249. # May 21 07:50:42 <-- aaronlev has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.82.1 [Firefox 3.0/2008051206]")
250. # May 21 07:51:18 <Dashiva> I figure if you're setting a property for storage you're likely to keep it. Maybe it'll be unused (e.g. set to nothing) in periods, but the use for the property isn't going to disappear
251. # May 21 07:51:20 <othermaciej> I will admit to being a little biased, in that the crazy dynamicity of JS makes me want to cling to any shred of statically determined behavior
252. # May 21 07:51:31 <-- hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com) has left #whatwg
253. # May 21 07:51:51 <othermaciej> I think delete is not going to be nearly as common as set/add or get, but it seems plausible
254. # May 21 07:52:05 <othermaciej> (in the style case too I would guess you set a lot more often than you remove)
255. # May 21 07:52:13 <Hixie> well, the ie/ff argument is a strong one -- what we really should be asking is whether the ff team and the ie team plan to remove the custom getting when they switch from globalStorage to localStorage
256. # May 21 07:52:26 <roc> I don't really know why custom delete would be a big burden if you already support custom add
257. # May 21 07:52:52 <Dashiva> Because add is actually set?
258. # May 21 07:52:59 <roc> in syntax it is
259. # May 21 07:53:10 <othermaciej> custom code running at set time is something we already have to live with
260. # May 21 07:53:13 <roc> but implementation-wise, not really
261. # May 21 07:53:32 <roc> or not necessarily
262. # May 21 07:53:33 <othermaciej> both due to DOM APIs and due to supporting the Mozilla getter/setter extension to ECMAScript
263. # May 21 07:53:40 <roc> BTW I almost always see style.opacity = ''; rather than removeProperty
264. # May 21 07:54:12 <Dashiva> Because they're equivalent in practice
265. # May 21 07:54:12 <jgraham> Dashiva: It seems like there would be lots of cases where you wanted to persist some property for a certian amount of time (e.g. till the network becomes available) and then stop persisting it
266. # May 21 07:54:20 <Dashiva> jgraham: Sure, and later when the network becomes unavailable again, you'd want to persist that same property with a new value
267. # May 21 07:54:26 <othermaciej> custom code at delete time (in particular, JS executing as a result of the event dispatch) would be new
268. # May 21 07:54:42 <othermaciej> it's not impossible to handle
269. # May 21 07:55:10 <othermaciej> but every additional bit of operator overloading makes the language harder to optimize
270. # May 21 07:55:30 <jgraham> Dashiva: In that sort of case I would tend to delete stuff rather than set it to some magic value (e.g. the empty string)
271. # May 21 07:55:46 <Dashiva> jgraham: Because the case is very rare, right?
272. # May 21 07:56:12 <roc> I don't think 'delete' is going to make any material difference to the optimizability of JS
273. # May 21 07:56:13 <-- webben has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
274. # May 21 07:56:43 <jgraham> No just because it feels like cleaning up your storage area is the right thing to do
275. # May 21 07:56:44 <Dashiva> Yes, and you want to clean up because you don't expect to use it in the near future
276. # May 21 07:57:24 <jgraham> I guess that depends what near future means
277. # May 21 07:57:53 <Dashiva> What I'm trying to claim is that if you use a property often enough that you'd benefit from delete shorthand, you're using it often enough that you're likely to be just nullifying the value instead
278. # May 21 07:59:27 <othermaciej> roc: every statement that can run arbitrary code invalidates many assumptions
279. # May 21 07:59:27 <othermaciej> currently when you see this code:
280. # May 21 07:59:27 <othermaciej> var x = 1;
281. # May 21 07:59:27 <roc> since 'set' and 'get' are already in that class
282. # May 21 07:59:27 <othermaciej> delete z.y;
283. # May 21 07:59:27 <othermaciej> you can assume x has the same value afterwards
284. # May 21 07:59:30 <roc> that game is already over
285. # May 21 07:59:41 <-- phsiao has quit ()
286. # May 21 07:59:41 <Hixie> othermaciej: no you can't
287. # May 21 07:59:47 <Hixie> othermaciej: z.y might run a getter
288. # May 21 08:00:42 <Dashiva> (Only on z, right?)
289. # May 21 08:00:42 <roc> I think you're going to have to stretch really hard to find a realistic testcase where optimizing around deletes is important and there are no gets/sets in the way
290. # May 21 08:01:08 <jgraham> Dashiva: I don't have a strong opinion on that. I guess my Python bias makes me think that delete is a reasonable syntax for this case but it's dangerous to apply reasoning from one language in another
291. # May 21 08:01:26 <othermaciej> Hixie: ok, if z is a local variable or parameter you can
292. # May 21 08:01:47 <roc> even if you come up with one, the problem is still completely dwarfed by gets/sets, so I still find it hard to care
293. # May 21 08:02:07 <othermaciej> roc: sure, I don't think it will be common, but the other crazy dynamic things in the language suck so much that on principle I am against additional overloading
294. # May 21 08:02:38 <Hixie> othermaciej: well, get IE and FF (or at least one of them) to not support delete when they switch to localStorage
295. # May 21 08:03:47 <othermaciej> I don't really want to engage in a majority vote power struggle, I just wanted to express the downsides of overloading the delete operator (particularly in a way that runs JS code)
296. # May 21 08:03:50 <Hixie> othermaciej: (right now you can't tell from the spec that 'delete' is supposed to do anything, it's just an [XXX] marker)
297. # May 21 08:03:51 <roc> I appreciate your principles but it really is too late to apply them to JS
298. # May 21 08:03:59 <othermaciej> it's not as bad as overloading * or && would be
299. # May 21 08:03:59 <Lachy> how do I see the output from the assert statements in python? Is there some debug mode I need to turn on or something?
300. # May 21 08:04:23 <othermaciej> roc: it is certainly possible to infer useful knowledge from some of the operators that are still not overloaded
301. # May 21 08:04:26 <jgraham> Lachy: You don't unless the expression evaluates to False
302. # May 21 08:04:28 <Hixie> othermaciej: my point is that even if i agreed with you, i wouldn't be able to do anything about it at this point really
303. # May 21 08:04:41 <Hixie> othermaciej: since the spec doesn't actually explicitly mention this at all right now
304. # May 21 08:04:42 <Lachy> oh, ok. The python docs aren't clear about that at all
305. # May 21 08:04:53 <roc> othermaciej: yeah, absolutely
306. # May 21 08:05:04 <jgraham> if they eval to False you'll get an AssertionError raised
307. # May 21 08:05:19 <Hixie> othermaciej: (also, note that overloading [[Delete]] is explicitly supported by the ES spec, unlike overloading the * or && operators)
308. # May 21 08:05:25 <roc> other areas of the language aren't as goofy as properties
309. # May 21 08:05:30 <othermaciej> (I would again point to * and && as examples, boy would it suck if those depended on the input types)
310. # May 21 08:05:38 --> aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) has joined #whatwg
311. # May 21 08:05:44 <roc> well
312. # May 21 08:05:56 <roc> * already does, if you're optimizing hard
313. # May 21 08:07:24 * Hixie starts seeing the light at the end of his scripting-disabled-per-browsing-context tunnel of doom
314. # May 21 08:08:26 <Hixie> hm
315. # May 21 08:08:33 <Hixie> i wonder if parsing changes if i set designMode
316. # May 21 08:08:43 <othermaciej> for * you know the result is a number and you know it always converts to number and multiplies as number - skipping conversions or optimizing for a subset of numbers based on additional knowledge can indeed help, but it is not as bad as +
317. # May 21 08:09:31 <othermaciej> Hixie: I have made my case, I am not really inclined to lobby implementors beyond that
318. # May 21 08:09:37 <othermaciej> (I would reserve that for more important issues)
319. # May 21 08:09:50 <Dashiva> othermaciej: Implement it yourself then ;)
320. # May 21 08:10:02 <roc> obviously we should have a new mozDelete JS operator
321. # May 21 08:10:32 <Hixie> othermaciej: at least one of the vendors hasn't even heard your case (microsoft aren't on the whatwg list)
322. # May 21 08:10:33 <othermaciej> Dashiva: WebKit already implements localStorage
323. # May 21 08:10:42 * annevk gets a steady stream of html4all e-mails written by RB
324. # May 21 08:10:47 <Hixie> othermaciej: so i'm not sure what you're expecting to have happen
325. # May 21 08:10:48 * annevk thinks it's time to go to bed
326. # May 21 08:11:15 <Dashiva> othermaciej: Hmm. It's hard to not implement delete any more than you already have, then.
327. # May 21 08:12:06 <othermaciej> Brady actually implemented delete but I'd like to encourage him to remove it
328. # May 21 08:13:05 <Hixie> sigh, ie8 throws an exception saying you can't get document.designMode if you try to set it (not get it) while parsing
329. # May 21 08:13:11 <othermaciej> Hixie: I am not expecting anything, I am just declining the action item of trying to persuade other implementors to do or not do anything specific when they implement localStorage (beyond stating the facts)
330. # May 21 08:13:16 <takkaria> RB has an interesting idea of use-cases
331. # May 21 08:13:32 <Hixie> othermaciej: ok
332. # May 21 08:14:02 <-- smedero has quit ()
333. # May 21 08:14:09 <othermaciej> Hixie: but I can forward the thread to public-html if you think that would be helpful
334. # May 21 08:15:43 --> aroben_ (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) has joined #whatwg
335. # May 21 08:16:00 --> jacobolus (n=jacobolu@dhcp-0000036913-b5-5e.client.fas.harvard.edu) has joined #whatwg
336. # May 21 08:16:07 <Hixie> othermaciej: i don't really know what would be helpful. the spec will have to require [Delete] support of the browsers support it, though
337. # May 21 08:16:14 <-- roc has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
338. # May 21 08:16:18 <Hixie> othermaciej: so at the end of the day, it _is_ a majority vote
339. # May 21 08:17:24 --> aroben__ (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) has joined #whatwg
340. # May 21 08:17:27 --> roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64) has joined #whatwg
341. # May 21 08:17:36 --> eseidel_ (n=eseidel@72.14.224.1) has joined #whatwg
342. # May 21 08:17:45 * Dashiva wonders about the IE extensions to storage
343. # May 21 08:22:52 <-- jacobolus has quit ()
344. # May 21 08:23:19 <-- aroben has quit (Nick collision from services.)
345. # May 21 08:23:21 --- aroben__ is now known as aroben
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348. # May 21 08:31:13 <othermaciej> Hixie: honestly I am more worried about whether Firefox and IE will transition to localStorage at all, or if we'll end up having to also implement globalStorage in WebKit
349. # May 21 08:32:07 <othermaciej> hopefully IE can since they are still just a beta but who knows?
350. # May 21 08:32:37 <Hixie> i hope ff does, since they were the reason we changed the api
351. # May 21 08:33:00 <Hixie> i have little hope of anything convenient to the health of the web coming from the IE team
352. # May 21 08:33:16 <Hixie> i mean, they couldn't even implement globalStorage without embrace-and-extending it
353. # May 21 08:33:33 <Hixie> even if they don't mean to, they seem to just act that way out of habbit
354. # May 21 08:33:38 <-- eseidel has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
355. # May 21 08:34:55 --> weinig (n=weinig@12.149.149.34) has joined #whatwg
356. # May 21 08:35:24 <othermaciej> it does seem kind of habitual
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358. # May 21 08:37:29 --> aroben_ (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) has joined #whatwg
359. # May 21 08:40:39 --> aroben__ (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) has joined #whatwg
360. # May 21 08:41:47 --> webben (n=benh@81.168.78.157) has joined #whatwg
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363. # May 21 08:48:45 <Dashiva> othermaciej: Should it really say prefix twice? "This class is designed to carry a prefix but match exclusively on the prefix and namespaceURI"
364. # May 21 08:54:08 Python interface unloaded
365. # May 21 08:54:08 Tcl interface unloaded
366. # May 21 09:43:43 --> You are now talking on #whatwg
367. # May 21 09:43:43 --- Topic for #whatwg is WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!
368. # May 21 09:43:43 --- Topic for #whatwg set by gsnedders at Wed Dec 19 05:41:19 2007
369. # May 21 09:43:43 --- Notify: annevk is online (anthony.freenode.net).
370. # May 21 09:43:43 --- Notify: hsivonen is online (anthony.freenode.net).
371. # May 21 09:43:44 --- #whatwg :[freenode-info] if you need to send private messages, please register: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#privmsg
372. # May 21 09:45:54 <-- aroben has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
373. # May 21 09:47:46 <Philip`> Hixie: Is it meant to be non-conforming if scripts cause an invalid state at any point during their execution, or only when they've finished? (e.g. if you do "img = document.createElement('img'); document.body.appendChild(img); img.src = '...'" is it non-conforming because there's (temporarily) an invalid state (with a srcless img)?)
374. # May 21 09:47:49 <-- aruner has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.82.1 [Firefox 3.0/2008051202]")
375. # May 21 09:47:58 <-- othermaciej has quit ()
376. # May 21 09:48:08 <Hixie> uh let me fix that hold on
377. # May 21 09:52:47 * MikeSmith reads starts a read-through of r1643 <iframe sandbox> diff
378. # May 21 09:53:07 <Philip`> Good luck with that :-)
379. # May 21 09:53:54 * Philip` just skimmed it to see if there were any obvious changes like an ASCII art elephant graphic
380. # May 21 09:53:56 --- aroben__ is now known as aroben
381. # May 21 09:56:53 <Hixie> Philip`: fixed
382. # May 21 09:58:00 <-- aroben_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
383. # May 21 09:59:27 <Philip`> Hixie: Thanks
384. # May 21 09:59:48 <-- Camaban has quit ("Ex-Chat")
385. # May 21 10:00:03 --> othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.105.99) has joined #whatwg
386. # May 21 10:00:25 <-- dbaron has quit ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
387. # May 21 10:00:59 * MikeSmith notes that http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/spec/Overview.html.diff?r1=1.830&r2=1.831&f=h provides side-by-side colored diff for those who like such things (I like the html5.org web-apps tracker view better myself...)
388. # May 21 10:01:15 <Philip`> Hixie: It seems unfair to only exempt automated conformance checkers from interpreting the author's intent - non-automated ones might be equally unable to interpret intent in some cases
389. # May 21 10:01:37 <Dashiva> I don't like how it selects the entire line with the background color
390. # May 21 10:03:20 <Dashiva> Lots of font tags there, ho
391. # May 21 10:03:33 * Dashiva smiles at <font face="Helvetica,Arial" size="-1">&nbsp;</font>
392. # May 21 10:03:58 <Philip`> e.g. I might submit a document written in Lojban to a non-automated conformance checking service, and they could point out lots of non-machine-checkable issues (like if I used <b> instead of <h1>) but couldn't possibly check all the issues (like if the alt text was a decent alternative to the image)
393. # May 21 10:05:23 <Philip`> I don't like the idea of conformance checkers anyway, I'd prefer conformance chess
394. # May 21 10:08:20 <Dashiva> If you lose, your page is deleted?
395. # May 21 10:10:45 <Hixie> Philip`: why couldn't a human determine if the page had good alt text?
396. # May 21 10:11:04 <Hixie> or rather, not good, but spec-compliant alt text
397. # May 21 10:11:27 <Dashiva> If he doesn't know the language
398. # May 21 10:12:10 <Hixie> one would need to know the language to correctly assess conformance of a document
399. # May 21 10:12:35 <Hixie> just like one would need more than 2 bytes of memory to correctly assess conformance of a document
400. # May 21 10:12:59 * Dashiva sees a challenge!
401. # May 21 10:13:09 <Dashiva> How much cache do I get?
402. # May 21 10:13:13 <Hixie> none
403. # May 21 10:13:20 <Dashiva> Darn
404. # May 21 10:13:21 <Hixie> 2 bytes memory total
405. # May 21 10:13:23 <Hixie> including registers
406. # May 21 10:13:31 <Hixie> and I/O
407. # May 21 10:13:39 <Dashiva> Address space?
408. # May 21 10:13:54 <Hixie> one bit address space, 0 addresses the first byte, 1 addresses the second.
409. # May 21 10:15:06 <Hixie> you actually could do it in a conforming way -- just invoke the "User agents may impose implementation-specific limits on otherwise unconstrained inputs" rule to say that you only check documents up to 2 bytes
410. # May 21 10:15:14 <Hixie> and always say it'ss non-conforming
411. # May 21 10:15:16 <Hixie> but that's not the point! :-P
412. # May 21 10:15:30 <Dashiva> With enough disk space, and enough exams to procrastinate, I'm sure I could cook up something insane
413. # May 21 10:15:45 <Hixie> no disk space, you have 2 bytes total
414. # May 21 10:15:56 <Hixie> for everything
415. # May 21 10:16:03 <Hixie> program, data, cache, registers, everything
416. # May 21 10:16:20 <Dashiva> I have this vague feeling we've deviated from the initial problem statement somewhat
417. # May 21 10:16:22 <Hixie> including the video RAM
418. # May 21 10:16:24 <Hixie> :-)
419. # May 21 10:16:39 <Hixie> my point was just that there are minimum requirements for determining conformance
420. # May 21 10:16:49 <Hixie> one of those is (for non-automated checkers) knowign the language
421. # May 21 10:26:04 --- Disconnected (Connection reset by peer).
422. # May 21 10:27:04 --> You are now talking on #whatwg
423. # May 21 10:27:04 --- Topic for #whatwg is WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!
424. # May 21 10:27:04 --- Topic for #whatwg set by gsnedders at Wed Dec 19 05:41:19 2007
425. # May 21 10:27:04 --- Notify: hsivonen is online (zelazny.freenode.net).
426. # May 21 10:27:11 <Philip`> The service wouldn't be certifying conformance, it would just be helping me improve the quality of my document, so it's useful even if it isn't complete
427. # May 21 10:28:33 <Hixie> sure
428. # May 21 10:28:42 <Hixie> web browsers are useful even when they're not conforming too
429. # May 21 10:28:58 <Hixie> conformance isn't a minimum requirement for usefulness
430. # May 21 10:29:01 <Hixie> not by a long shot
431. # May 21 10:31:06 * Philip` goes to bed :-)
432. # May 21 10:31:07 <Hixie> nn :-)
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447. # May 21 12:36:11 <Hixie> hm, <iframe sandbox> for the first time introduces the concept of a document's origin changing while the document is up
448. # May 21 12:37:20 <Hixie> you could do var e = iframe.contentDocument.documentElement; iframe.setAttribute('sandbox', '');
449. # May 21 12:37:43 <Hixie> at that point, you can navigate 'e' fine, but if you try to read anything from e.parentNode, you get an exception
450. # May 21 12:37:49 <Hixie> good times
451. # May 21 12:42:14 <jruderman> doesn't document.domain do that too?
452. # May 21 12:44:51 <Hixie> oh, i guess so
453. # May 21 12:44:59 <Hixie> yeah, fair enough
454. # May 21 12:45:18 <jwalden> thankfully that's the only other one
455. # May 21 12:45:18 <Hixie> though that one just changes the "effective origin" not the true origin
456. # May 21 12:45:36 <jwalden> effective origin is what matters, no?
457. # May 21 12:45:45 <Hixie> er, "effective script origin"
458. # May 21 12:45:45 <jwalden> for sec
459. # May 21 12:46:10 <Hixie> depends what for
460. # May 21 12:46:25 <Hixie> per spec document.domain doesn't affect where you can take images from for <canvas>, for instance
461. # May 21 12:46:51 <-- aroben has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
462. # May 21 12:47:04 <Hixie> and the rules for which browsing contexts you can navigate aren't affected by document.domain per spec
463. # May 21 12:47:51 <jwalden> oh, yeah
464. # May 21 12:49:06 <Hixie> and if you meta refresh to an http uri that redirects to a javascript: uri, the javascript: uri compares the original origin to the redirecting uri's origin to decide whether to run or not (and then runs in the same global context, but fails almost immediately since it can't get to anything on the Window or Document objects since it has a different effective script origin)
465. # May 21 12:49:12 <Hixie> hm, maybe that is a bug
466. # May 21 12:49:30 <Hixie> anyway
467. # May 21 12:49:54 <Hixie> the Web security model is going to be promising job security for us for years to come
468. # May 21 12:50:07 <jruderman> hah
469. # May 21 12:55:03 <roc> hmm
470. # May 21 12:55:15 <roc> changing the principal on a document actually sounds very scary
471. # May 21 12:55:52 <roc> that might be something to avoid if we can
472. # May 21 13:04:23 --> deane (n=dean@121.98.128.155) has joined #whatwg
473. # May 21 13:04:48 <jwalden> I think it's impossible to do that
474. # May 21 13:05:17 <roc> do it, or avoid it?
475. # May 21 13:05:55 <jwalden> avoid changing the principal
476. # May 21 13:06:22 <roc> we could just say that dynamic changes to 'sandbox' don't have any effect until a new document is loaded in the iframe
477. # May 21 13:06:42 <jwalden> that doesn't address document.domain
478. # May 21 13:06:55 <jwalden> but that seems like a good idea anyway
479. # May 21 13:19:24 --> othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.105.99) has joined #whatwg
480. # May 21 13:25:17 <Hixie> roc: yeah, maybe
481. # May 21 13:25:36 <Hixie> roc: once i've sent out the e-mail where i say i added this, please do send any feedback you have :-)
482. # May 21 13:25:54 <Hixie> it'll likely be a few hours or days yet though
483. # May 21 13:26:07 <roc> our feedback on that should come from boris
484. # May 21 13:28:07 <Hixie> that's good too :-)
485. # May 21 13:28:12 <Hixie> this is all highly speculative stuff
486. # May 21 13:28:21 <Hixie> no rush or anything on any of this
487. # May 21 13:28:35 <Hixie> (sandbox="" or seamless="")
488. # May 21 13:29:19 <roc> these are features people have been asking for for years
489. # May 21 13:29:24 <Hixie> yeah
490. # May 21 13:29:31 <roc> I guess you saw the Mozilla bug
491. # May 21 13:29:34 <Hixie> indeed
492. # May 21 13:30:03 <Hixie> speccing this stuff was basically impossible until recent weeks, because it depends on so much of the previously unspecified stuff in really core ways
493. # May 21 13:30:50 <Hixie> i mean, it depends on the navigation model, on multiple windows, on how scripts run, on same-origin... it's got its tentacles all over the stuff that didn't ever get acknowledged before HTML5
494. # May 21 13:31:29 <Hixie> these features may in fact be the first real author-visible tangible benefits of having this spec be this detailed
495. # May 21 13:32:11 <-- othermaciej has quit ()
496. # May 21 13:32:13 * jwalden fights the urge to make a bad pun on the mailing list
497. # May 21 13:33:04 <roc> why fight it
498. # May 21 13:33:33 <jwalden> because I'm not sure I have much more that's useful to say at the same time
499. # May 21 13:33:49 <jwalden> at least not if we wanted the test harness to be usable in current browsers
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507. # May 21 15:57:38 --> You are now talking on #whatwg
508. # May 21 15:57:38 --- Topic for #whatwg is WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!
509. # May 21 15:57:38 --- Topic for #whatwg set by gsnedders at Wed Dec 19 05:41:19 2007
510. # May 21 15:57:38 --- Notify: annevk is online (leguin.freenode.net).
511. # May 21 15:57:38 --- Notify: hsivonen is online (leguin.freenode.net).
512. # May 21 15:59:50 <hsivonen> "Require that Henri do the impossible by checking that scripts never cause non-conforming states to occur." great
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529. # May 21 17:10:10 <annevk> hsivonen, his various definitions of compatible are pretty strict
530. # May 21 17:10:43 <annevk> hsivonen, probably needs more ~ usage :)
531. # May 21 17:15:23 <annevk> "
532. # May 21 17:15:24 <annevk> The difficult, important, and often overlooked part of a version identification strategy is specifying the meaning and interpretation when a consumer encounters a version identifier it does not know about."
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534. # May 21 17:15:42 <annevk> that's actually not just true for versioning :)
535. # May 21 17:15:50 --> othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #whatwg
536. # May 21 17:19:29 <hsivonen> I think it is good that the doc acks that version identifiers aren't necessary, but it would be better to say that they are actually harmful
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538. # May 21 17:20:58 <annevk> yes
539. # May 21 17:21:12 <annevk> maybe we should comment
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542. # May 21 17:30:11 --> jacobolus (n=jacobolu@140.247.236.15) has joined #whatwg
543. # May 21 17:30:53 <Hixie> one day y'all will realise the true value of TAG findings...
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545. # May 21 17:31:19 <Hixie> hsivonen: it wasn't really a major change to what we understood the spec to say anyway, i just hadn't realised that we hadn't made conformance checkers check for all conformance states
546. # May 21 17:31:32 <Hixie> hsivonen: it doesn't really affect you at all
547. # May 21 17:31:51 --> othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #whatwg
548. # May 21 17:32:32 <othermaciej> is it greater than the value of TAG losings?
549. # May 21 17:34:44 <hsivonen> Hixie: as I said before, Dave Orchard's presentation about compatibility was good stuff before he got to applying it to XSD (it was XSD's fault that it wasn't as good from there on)
550. # May 21 17:35:11 <hsivonen> Hixie: I was just pointing out to annevk where the same reasoning is written down
551. # May 21 17:38:55 --> webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-3d07d10dbdfa4834) has joined #whatwg
552. # May 21 17:42:43 <hsivonen> aargh. I accidentally introduced a lot of bugs with Eclipse's refactoring tools
553. # May 21 17:44:43 <roc> Undo
554. # May 21 17:44:52 --> othermaciej_ (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #whatwg
555. # May 21 17:45:07 <hsivonen> roc: that would break a lot of good stuff too
556. # May 21 17:45:19 <roc> Redo :-)
557. # May 21 17:45:30 <hsivonen> fortunately, I have a way of identiying the problematic points
558. # May 21 17:45:37 <Philip`> Right click -> Remove Bugs (ctrl+alt+shift+r)
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587. # May 21 18:46:58 <Hixie> what were the attributes we'd come up with for replacing data: URIs on <iframe>s?
588. # May 21 18:46:59 --> othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #whatwg
589. # May 21 18:47:16 <annevk> html=""
590. # May 21 18:47:18 <annevk> markup=""
591. # May 21 18:47:48 <annevk> content=""
592. # May 21 18:47:50 <hsivonen> aren't data URIs more compatible?
593. # May 21 18:48:04 <hsivonen> or do we want incompatibility for security?
594. # May 21 18:48:28 <Hixie> data: URIs require too much thinking
595. # May 21 18:48:53 <Hixie> you have to escape too many characters (three four to be minimally safe, more to be compliant)
596. # May 21 18:49:09 <Hixie> and you don't get much backcompat anyway
597. # May 21 18:49:14 <Hixie> since IE doesn't support them
598. # May 21 18:50:07 <hsivonen> Hixie: by the time anyone ships a sandbox, IE8, Firefox, Safari and Opera together will be a big legacy
599. # May 21 18:50:08 <Hixie> a new attribute only really desperately needs one character escaped (the delimiter -- typically " => &quot) and for correctness the ampersand (& => &amp;) though the latter isn't security-critical, and the former is very obvious if you get it wrong
600. # May 21 18:52:06 <annevk> ah crap, <meta> has stolen content="" already it seems
601. # May 21 18:52:07 <Hixie> IE8 doesn't support <iframe src="data:text/html,..."> either
602. # May 21 18:52:26 <Hixie> at least not in beta1
603. # May 21 18:52:38 <Hixie> (acid3 tries to take care of that, but that's not likely to be seen until IE9)
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605. # May 21 18:52:59 <Hixie> (and that's assuming a major IE8.5 between 8 and 9)
606. # May 21 18:55:29 <annevk> I like content="" the best
607. # May 21 18:56:03 <Hixie> "src", "source", "src2", "content", "value", and "data" are all vetoed
608. # May 21 18:56:24 <Hixie> doc="" is currently leading the pack
609. # May 21 18:56:29 <Hixie> with html="" a close second
610. # May 21 18:56:39 <hsivonen> will it accept only HTML fragments or XML too?
611. # May 21 18:56:45 <Hixie> HTML
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613. # May 21 18:57:04 <annevk> that violates some principle you had initially
614. # May 21 18:57:16 <Hixie> which one?
615. # May 21 18:57:17 <annevk> that uas wouldn't be required to support both parsers if they didn't want to
616. # May 21 18:57:27 <Hixie> UAs wouldn't be
617. # May 21 18:57:43 <annevk> so XML UAs may ignore doc=""?
618. # May 21 18:57:58 <hsivonen> time to disassemble my code and count the bytes again...
619. # May 21 18:57:59 <Hixie> i dunno :-)
620. # May 21 18:58:02 <Hixie> doc="" doesn't exist
621. # May 21 18:58:06 <Hixie> it's just an idea
622. # May 21 18:58:30 <Hixie> i don't really want to skew this just to make the xml crowd happy
623. # May 21 18:58:35 <Hixie> since in practice nobody will use the xml version
624. # May 21 18:59:06 <annevk> htmldoc=""
625. # May 21 18:59:12 <Hixie> or type=""
626. # May 21 18:59:14 <Hixie> there are various options
627. # May 21 18:59:33 <annevk> lets not overload type even more :)
628. # May 21 19:00:01 <Hixie> does <iframe> have a type=""?
629. # May 21 19:00:16 <Lachy> Hixie, I think it does in HTML4
630. # May 21 19:00:26 <Hixie> cool
631. # May 21 19:00:28 <Hixie> well then
632. # May 21 19:00:29 <Hixie> we just use that
633. # May 21 19:00:30 * Lachy checks...
634. # May 21 19:00:39 <annevk> doesn't seem like it...
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636. # May 21 19:00:56 <annevk> does have longdesc :)
637. # May 21 19:01:05 <Lachy> actually, it doesn't
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639. # May 21 19:01:24 <hsivonen> w00t. only 7933 bytes
640. # May 21 19:02:29 <Lachy> what problem is this new attribute trying to solve?
641. # May 21 19:02:32 <Hixie> if it doesn't have it, then i say we're fine with using it for our piurposes
642. # May 21 19:02:38 <Hixie> which new attribute?
643. # May 21 19:02:47 <Lachy> the one you're discussing adding to iframe
644. # May 21 19:02:49 <Hixie> doc="" or type=""?
645. # May 21 19:03:08 <Hixie> doc="" solves the problem of there not being any good safe way to embed content inline in a sandbox
646. # May 21 19:03:20 <annevk> making type conforming will led to confusion when it is not used together with doc
647. # May 21 19:03:32 <annevk> lets call it doctype=""
648. # May 21 19:03:47 <Hixie> type="" solves the theoretical problem of not being able to decide whether doc="" is html or xml or text/plain or png...
649. # May 21 19:03:54 <Hixie> annevk: :-P
650. # May 21 19:04:27 <-- othermaciej has quit (Client Quit)
651. # May 21 19:04:39 <Lachy> ok, so it's a backwards incompatible replacement for data URIs that provides security in new browsers without compromising older ones.
652. # May 21 19:05:04 <Hixie> data: URIs don't really provide what we need here, so it's not a replacement for them
653. # May 21 19:05:21 <Hixie> data: URIs are too complicated to correctly escape to really be a good security solution
654. # May 21 19:05:50 <Lachy> I don't really like the idea of embedding markup within an attribute
655. # May 21 19:06:05 <Hixie> do you have a better idea?
656. # May 21 19:06:06 <Lachy> but I have no alternative solution
657. # May 21 19:06:15 <Hixie> i agree that it's suboptimal
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659. # May 21 19:08:50 <annevk> alternatively we could put it inside <iframe> ...
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661. # May 21 19:09:14 <annevk> though maybe that's more icky for authors than just escaping "
662. # May 21 19:09:22 <Lachy> is the proposal do be able to include fragments of HTML in them like this: <iframe doc="<p>hello <em>world!</em>">, and then that creates a document within the frame using that fragment?
663. # May 21 19:09:26 <Hixie> content inside <iframe> has REALLY obscure escaping semantics
664. # May 21 19:09:38 <Hixie> Lachy: yes
665. # May 21 19:09:45 <Hixie> Lachy: well, that's a variant of hte proposal
666. # May 21 19:09:53 <Hixie> i'm writing it up in more detail in the e-mail i'm sending
667. # May 21 19:10:06 <Lachy> I assume authors won't need to include <!DOCTYPE html> in the fragment?
668. # May 21 19:10:24 <Hixie> we could make that implicit, probably
669. # May 21 19:10:36 <Lachy> and it would only allow elements that are valid within <body>
670. # May 21 19:10:59 <Hixie> hy?
671. # May 21 19:11:01 <Hixie> why, even
672. # May 21 19:11:11 <Lachy> hm. I guess that's not necessary
673. # May 21 19:12:32 <othermaciej> putting unescaped markup in a quoted string seems like it makes it easy to accidentally terminate the attribute value early
674. # May 21 19:12:37 <othermaciej> (or maliciously)
675. # May 21 19:13:24 <Hixie> othermaciej: luckily, that is trivially detectable, and easy to solve
676. # May 21 19:13:48 <Hixie> othermaciej: even without security attacks, people will use " or ' in their comments and thus it'll be caught quickly
677. # May 21 19:14:30 <Hixie> othermaciej: and the delimiter is the only character you absolutely must escape
678. # May 21 19:14:49 <othermaciej> I thought your major argument against some approaches to inline sandboxing was that they still require (minimal) escaping
679. # May 21 19:15:13 <Hixie> my objections were that they required non-trivial or easy-to-get-wrong escaping.
680. # May 21 19:15:54 <Hixie> people would be motivated to get this right for reasons other than just security
681. # May 21 19:16:02 <othermaciej> escaping case-insensitive </sandbox> is not very hard, though certainly possible to get wrong
682. # May 21 19:16:30 <Hixie> since getting it wrong would break the entire page the moment someone used a quote or apostrophe (as appropriate)
683. # May 21 19:16:40 <Hixie> othermaciej: sure but people don't type </sandbox> in as a matter of course
684. # May 21 19:16:51 <Hixie> othermaciej: so there it becomes _only_ a security problem
685. # May 21 19:17:22 <Hixie> othermaciej: and since it's more than one character, you end up with problems with over-long utf-8 sequences, embedded nulls, all kinds of stuff like that
686. # May 21 19:17:28 <Hixie> othermaciej: none of which affects a single quote mark
687. # May 21 19:17:43 <Hixie> well the overlong utf-8 might i guess
688. # May 21 19:17:58 <othermaciej> you have to normalize in any case
689. # May 21 19:18:02 <othermaciej> (unicode normalize)
690. # May 21 19:18:27 <othermaciej> (or reject input that is not in normal form already)
691. # May 21 19:18:39 <Hixie> who does?
692. # May 21 19:19:18 <Hixie> as far as i can tell, with the doc="" idea everyone or anyone can forget to normalise and you're still ok
693. # May 21 19:19:45 <othermaciej> whoever is escaping quotes
694. # May 21 19:20:12 <othermaciej> (i.e. whoever processes the input after receiving it from an untrusted source but before putting it in the attribute value)
695. # May 21 19:20:22 <Hixie> why?
696. # May 21 19:20:25 <annevk> escaping </sandbox> would not cut it btw, consider </sandbox >
697. # May 21 19:21:11 <othermaciej> would escaping "</sandbox" cut it?
698. # May 21 19:21:30 <othermaciej> Hixie: to successfully escape denormal close quotes?
699. # May 21 19:21:42 <othermaciej> or am I missing the point of your "overlong utf-8" remark?
700. # May 21 19:21:50 <Philip`> You could easily forget to escape "</sandbox" case-insensitively
701. # May 21 19:22:05 <annevk> case-insensitive </sandbox might, but then so would </iframe i suppose
702. # May 21 19:23:33 <annevk> still, " seems a lot easier
703. # May 21 19:24:15 <othermaciej> it is easier, but the attribute approach has the big downside that you need an iframe per item to be sandboxed, and iframes are heavyweight
704. # May 21 19:25:09 <othermaciej> so if we can countenance some escaping of untrusted content being required, I'd rather see a version that is usable for hundreds or thousands of items
705. # May 21 19:25:18 <Philip`> Heavyweightedness is just an implementation bug :-)
706. # May 21 19:25:29 <Hixie> othermaciej: i'm confused. I'm talking about encoding U+0022 as, e.g., 0xC0 0xA2.
707. # May 21 19:25:38 <-- jacobolus has quit ()
708. # May 21 19:25:48 <Hixie> othermaciej: which has nothing to do with unicode normalisation forms
709. # May 21 19:26:03 <othermaciej> Hixie: then I apologize for using the terminology incorrectly
710. # May 21 19:26:10 <annevk> othermaciej, ah yeah, creating hundreds of document objects is costly
711. # May 21 19:26:40 <annevk> not really sure how to do something smarter than that though
712. # May 21 19:26:46 <othermaciej> Philip`: some of the heavyweightedness of iframe is effectively required by specs
713. # May 21 19:26:47 <Hixie> othermaciej: all the workable sandboxing approaches i've seen so far invoke new browsing contexts (iframes)
714. # May 21 19:26:50 <annevk> afaict with <sandbox> you have the same issue, no?
715. # May 21 19:27:08 <Hixie> othermaciej: the only differences between the working proposals i've seen is how they encode the data
716. # May 21 19:27:25 <Hixie> othermaciej: i don't understand how to do origin isolation without a separate browsing context
717. # May 21 19:27:42 <othermaciej> Hixie: I agree you can't do a sandbox with any scripting enabled without a separate browsing context
718. # May 21 19:27:45 <othermaciej> (not feasibly anyway)
719. # May 21 19:27:59 <othermaciej> I think you can do a noscript sandbox without an extra browsing context or document
720. # May 21 19:28:00 <Hixie> it's not just scripting
721. # May 21 19:28:52 <Hixie> e.g. target="" and forms would need very complicated and subtle changes to be done safely without an iframe
722. # May 21 19:29:29 <Hixie> and i'm not confident that i could spec those precisely enough to avoid introducing security bugs into the spec
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725. # May 21 19:30:27 <Hixie> and i'm certainly not willing to take on the responsibility for spec-mandated security holes in humanity's most widely deployed application platform :-)
726. # May 21 19:30:32 <Hixie> i can't afford the legal fees, for one
727. # May 21 19:31:03 <annevk> i hope you have some protection against that regardless :)
728. # May 21 19:31:06 <othermaciej> I think for the use case of the inline sandbox (blog comments or the like) it would be ok to totally ban targetted links and form elements (parser discards them)
729. # May 21 19:31:09 <othermaciej> and if the spec is found to require security holes it will be ignored on that count as I am sure you know
730. # May 21 19:31:13 <annevk> MessageEvent.uri comes to mind :)
731. # May 21 19:31:41 <annevk> though that's more a privacy issue
732. # May 21 19:31:56 <Hixie> othermaciej: not before multiple shipping implementations are out there, possibly with content depending on it (e.g. look how far we've gotten with blocking cross-origin <script> or form submissions)
733. # May 21 19:32:10 <Philip`> Hixie: Just add a statement "UAs must not contain any security holes" - if the spec also requires certain features which are security holes, then any UA trying to implement HTML5 will necessarily be non-conforming and not your problem any more
734. # May 21 19:32:32 <Philip`> For blog comments, could you put the entire comments section in a single sandbox?
735. # May 21 19:32:46 <Philip`> (to avoid the issues with having hundreds of separate sandboxes on a single page)
736. # May 21 19:33:18 <Hixie> othermaciej: (i'm not at all convinced i could catch all cases -- e.g so far your proposal has not covered banning <meta http-equiv=refresh>)
737. # May 21 19:33:34 <othermaciej> Philip`: often you want un-sandboxed content near each comment
738. # May 21 19:33:34 <Hixie> having one sandbox might work
739. # May 21 19:33:38 <othermaciej> Philip`: so not sure that works
740. # May 21 19:33:44 <Hixie> but there is that issue
741. # May 21 19:33:57 <othermaciej> Hixie: is <meta http-equiv=refresh> allowed in the body?
742. # May 21 19:34:08 <Hixie> nope, but the parser doesn't care about that
743. # May 21 19:34:10 <othermaciej> I don't really mean allowed
744. # May 21 19:34:15 <othermaciej> I mean, does it work when in the body
745. # May 21 19:34:19 <Hixie> sure
746. # May 21 19:34:52 <Hixie> i'm not sure how you'd disable script on a per-element basis, either
747. # May 21 19:34:57 <annevk> it could work if the parser just dropped certain elements during a certain mode
748. # May 21 19:35:12 <annevk> "in sandbox insertion mode"
749. # May 21 19:35:14 <annevk> or something
750. # May 21 19:35:16 <Hixie> e.g. you'd have to somehow handle <img src="foo.cgi"> redirecting to a javascript: URI
751. # May 21 19:35:34 <othermaciej> Hixie: redirecting to a javascript: URI is not allowed in any case
752. # May 21 19:35:42 <Hixie> it is per spec at the moment
753. # May 21 19:35:45 <othermaciej> (it would be a security hole)
754. # May 21 19:35:46 <Hixie> and it is nicely and safely defined
755. # May 21 19:36:20 <Hixie> (it runs in a void execution context and its return value is used as the image data)
756. # May 21 19:36:35 <othermaciej> disallowing redirect to javascript: is perfectly safe
757. # May 21 19:36:39 <Hixie> (unless the origins match in which case it runs in the context of the page, iirc)
758. # May 21 19:36:45 * hsivonen wants to see an accessibility advocate type alt text for hundreds of vacation photos
759. # May 21 19:36:52 <othermaciej> I don't see the point of allowing it, context notwithstanding
760. # May 21 19:37:20 <Philip`> annevk: Then some people would want to handle <!--[if IE]><script>alert('haxxored')</script><![endif]--> too, and it'd seem a bit dangerous
761. # May 21 19:37:23 <Hixie> well it's just one example of what the spec does currently allow which we would have to handle somehow
762. # May 21 19:37:41 <othermaciej> I think the spec just shouldn't allow that
763. # May 21 19:37:46 <othermaciej> but good point
764. # May 21 19:37:51 <Hixie> with a browsing context, handling it is trivial
765. # May 21 19:37:56 <Hixie> you just disable scripting.
766. # May 21 19:38:12 <othermaciej> well, you have to make sure not to create a special-case void scripting context there either
767. # May 21 19:38:43 <othermaciej> I wouldn't assume that just automatically follows
768. # May 21 19:38:53 <annevk> Philip`, I'm assuming conforming parsers
769. # May 21 19:39:32 <Lachy> Hixie, how can U+0022 be encoded as 0xC0 0xA2? That doesn't seem to work
770. # May 21 19:40:06 <Hixie> Lachy: lax UTF-8 decoders that do no sanity checking would decode that to U+0022
771. # May 21 19:40:47 <Philip`> annevk: That seems like an impractical assumption
772. # May 21 19:42:45 <annevk> Philip`, your practical assumption has security holes
773. # May 21 19:45:31 <Philip`> annevk: My assumption that some people won't implement the parser precisely, combined with your suggestion to enforce security rules in the parser, is what has security holes
774. # May 21 19:45:31 <-- othermaciej has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
775. # May 21 19:46:15 --> othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #whatwg
776. # May 21 19:49:37 <annevk> Hixie, you went from attribute DOMString to boolean DOMString
777. # May 21 19:51:17 <annevk> you want attribute boolean
778. # May 21 19:51:38 <Hixie> lol
779. # May 21 19:51:39 <Hixie> i suck
780. # May 21 19:59:52 --> ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) has joined #whatwg
781. # May 21 20:04:12 <-- webben has quit ()
782. # May 21 20:06:11 --> webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-1fc8f3de8d42a744) has joined #whatwg
783. # May 21 20:07:55 * annevk wonders which browser Hixie used
784. # May 21 20:08:16 <hsivonen> chaals++ on wai-xtech
785. # May 21 20:08:19 <Hixie> safari trunk
786. # May 21 20:08:27 <Hixie> i may have js disabled, i didn't check
787. # May 21 20:08:43 <Hixie> i've been doing tests that involve disabling js recently
788. # May 21 20:08:48 <annevk> k
789. # May 21 20:08:57 <Dashiva> A gallery that doesn't work without JS is pretty sad
790. # May 21 20:09:21 <annevk> i wrote it myself for myself so i don't really care about that
791. # May 21 20:09:27 <annevk> though cross browser would be nice
792. # May 21 20:09:37 <Dashiva> :)
793. # May 21 20:09:38 <annevk> at some point i guess i will use pushState() and such
794. # May 21 20:09:52 <Hixie> if it's for yourself, interop isn't important and worrying about conformance seems mostly pointless
795. # May 21 20:10:07 <Hixie> let alone accessibility
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801. # May 21 20:42:18 <hsivonen> Hixie: do you have a full list of known (including non-conforming HTML legacy) attributes for HTML, MathML and SVG?
802. # May 21 20:45:31 --> myakura (n=myakura@p5047-ipbf1403marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) has joined #whatwg
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806. # May 21 21:01:14 --- othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
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810. # May 21 21:03:17 --> hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com) has joined #whatwg
811. # May 21 21:07:32 <hsivonen> Philip`: do you have a full attribute list by any chance?
812. # May 21 21:10:26 * hsivonen is glad Hixie didn't add xml:id to the adjustable attributes
813. # May 21 21:12:38 <annevk> I'm pretty sure that was a conscious decision
814. # May 21 21:12:58 <hsivonen> me too
815. # May 21 21:13:07 <annevk> hsivonen, full attribute list is pretty hard to determine, no?
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817. # May 21 21:13:43 <hsivonen> annevk: perhaps, but presumable Hixie already did part of the work in order to find the camelCased ones
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823. # May 21 21:18:16 <annevk> hsivonen, oh, I think that list is complete, but doesn't include SVG 1.2
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834. # May 21 21:27:54 <hsivonen> annevk: I need a list that includes non-camelcase SVG and HTML (incl legacy) and MathML
835. # May 21 21:28:00 <-- othermaciej has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
836. # May 21 21:31:42 <takkaria> Doug Crockford's JS book is well-written
837. # May 21 21:32:44 --- Notify: nwalsh is online (leguin.freenode.net).
838. # May 21 21:33:16 --> othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #whatwg
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841. # May 21 21:44:06 --> You are now talking on #whatwg
842. # May 21 21:44:06 --- Topic for #whatwg is WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!
843. # May 21 21:44:06 --- Topic for #whatwg set by gsnedders at Wed Dec 19 05:41:19 2007
844. # May 21 21:44:06 --- Notify: annevk is online (kornbluth.freenode.net).
845. # May 21 21:44:06 --- Notify: hsivonen is online (kornbluth.freenode.net).
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859. # May 21 22:25:33 <Philip`> hsivonen: I don't
860. # May 21 22:25:34 <-- othermaciej has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
861. # May 21 22:26:40 <hsivonen> Philip`: ok. thakn
862. # May 21 22:26:41 <hsivonen> s
863. # May 21 22:27:51 --> othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #whatwg
864. # May 21 22:28:17 <-- webben has quit (Connection timed out)
865. # May 21 22:32:38 <hsivonen> dealing with xmlns cruft in the V.nu parser is painful
866. # May 21 22:34:26 * MikeSmith contemplates making joke about how maybe some people would say namespaces should have been titled pain-spaces, but reconsiders...
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893. # May 21 23:03:21 --> You are now talking on #whatwg
894. # May 21 23:03:21 --- Topic for #whatwg is WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!
895. # May 21 23:03:21 --- Topic for #whatwg set by gsnedders at Wed Dec 19 05:41:19 2007
896. # May 21 23:03:48 <-- maikmerten has quit (Remote closed the connection)
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905. # May 21 23:12:57 <Dashiva> I wonder if Dmitry would have better luck with his proposals if he didn't invent new words for every single term
906. # May 21 23:15:42 <MikeSmith> using "Man of good will," as a salutation is nice, though
907. # May 21 23:16:01 <MikeSmith> the spirit of optimism in it
908. # May 21 23:16:24 <Lachy> it's werid and I don't like it.
909. # May 21 23:16:46 <MikeSmith> Lachy: c'mon
910. # May 21 23:17:00 <Philip`> http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/200805/msg00087.html
911. # May 21 23:17:45 <Philip`> Not sure where else it's been posted
912. # May 21 23:17:48 <MikeSmith> I think "quixotic" is the word I'm looking for
913. # May 21 23:18:22 <MikeSmith> Lachy: please consider adding Cervantes "Don Quixote" to your reading list, if you haven't read it yet
914. # May 21 23:18:40 <MikeSmith> before or after "At Swim-Two-Birds"
915. # May 21 23:19:38 <Lachy> MikeSmith, it's far too formal for a place that is more comfortable when treated as a relatively informal discussion channel in most cases
916. # May 21 23:20:22 <MikeSmith> yeah, I suppose it is if you take it too seriously
917. # May 21 23:21:36 <takkaria> windows mobile is one of the worst OSes I've ever ever used
918. # May 21 23:21:41 <MikeSmith> but it's a quite appropriate way to address the world if you're battling windmills
919. # May 21 23:21:54 <MikeSmith> takkaria: amen to that
920. # May 21 23:22:53 <Philip`> MikeSmith: You think it's optimistic to imply there's one man in the HTML WG who is of good will?
921. # May 21 23:23:23 --> phsiao (n=shawn@nat/ibm/x-27813e50df507ac0) has joined #whatwg
922. # May 21 23:23:38 --> billmason (n=billmaso@ip246.unival.com) has joined #whatwg
923. # May 21 23:23:48 <MikeSmith> Philip`: ah geez.. I really doubt he means to imply that
924. # May 21 23:23:58 --> weinig (n=weinig@12.149.149.34) has joined #whatwg
925. # May 21 23:24:01 <Philip`> takkaria: Windows, Linux and OS X are three of the worst desktop OSes I've ever used
926. # May 21 23:24:20 <MikeSmith> Windows Mobile in a special class by itself
927. # May 21 23:24:22 <Philip`> (though they're also three of the best)
928. # May 21 23:24:40 <hsivonen> gotta love all the special attentition lang/xml:lang requires...
929. # May 21 23:25:09 <MikeSmith> if you want a good laugh, try some javascript timing tests on a windows mobile device some time
930. # May 21 23:25:15 <MikeSmith> or any kind of timing test
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932. # May 21 23:26:15 <Philip`> or any other kind of test
933. # May 21 23:26:20 <MikeSmith> heh
934. # May 21 23:26:32 <takkaria> if you want two hours of frustration, try to send a file that's about 0.5MB smaller than the amount of space you have free on your storage card via bluetooth
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936. # May 21 23:27:29 --> othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #whatwg
937. # May 21 23:27:47 <takkaria> because it seems to accept the file, ask if you want to save it, and when you answer "yes", delete it since it's worried about free space
938. # May 21 23:28:08 <-- mpt has quit (No route to host)
939. # May 21 23:28:29 <takkaria> and AFAICT, there's no way to tell it to save on the 1GB microSD card which has more than enough free space for fifty copies of the same file
940. # May 21 23:28:32 <takkaria> </rant>
941. # May 21 23:28:35 --> mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) has joined #whatwg
942. # May 21 23:29:02 * hsivonen tries to trade memory for execution speed with the attribute silliness
943. # May 21 23:31:18 <takkaria> hmm, Gez seems to think that the entirely emotive reply to Hixie about his lack of empathy was appropriate in a technical context
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946. # May 21 23:34:51 <Dashiva> And this from the same crowd who insist that we absolutely must take into consideration AT five versions outdated because the users don't upgrade :)
947. # May 21 23:35:38 <Philip`> The best thing about the alt discussion is that the really long threads look pretty in Gmail when it shows the colour-coded names of authors
948. # May 21 23:36:47 <takkaria> I also emailed Gez privately just because emailing the list seemed like it was clogging up people's inboxes
949. # May 21 23:36:50 <takkaria> sigh
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952. # May 21 23:38:59 <hsivonen> aaaargh. it's crazy how much code I have to write to support both HTML5 DOMs and XML 1.0 + Namespaces infosets
953. # May 21 23:39:06 <hsivonen> Namespaces--
954. # May 21 23:39:42 * Philip` suggests dropping XML support
955. # May 21 23:40:18 <Philip`> XML isn't even trendy any more, so there's no reason to bother with it
956. # May 21 23:40:22 --> othermaciej_ (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #whatwg
957. # May 21 23:40:34 <hsivonen> Philip`: that would mean violating the SAX API all the time and dropping generic DOM support and dropping XOM support
958. # May 21 23:40:35 <-- othermaciej_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
959. # May 21 23:41:14 <Philip`> Hmm, I suppose that could be cosidered a bit of a pain
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963. # May 21 23:43:02 <hsivonen> the thing is that only the TreeBuilder knows if xlink:href needs to be dropped on the floor or kept when the parser is coercing the data into a proper infoset
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980. # May 21 23:56:03 * Philip` isn't sure "tangents of tangents" has a particularly useful geometric meaning :-(
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982. # May 21 23:56:15 --> othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #whatwg
983. # May 21 23:56:21 <takkaria> Philip`: sorry
984. # May 21 23:57:27 <Philip`> since a tangent is a straight line touching some other line, so a tangent of a tangent would just be the tangent itself :-p
985. # May 21 23:57:27 <takkaria> luckily I wasn't using it geometrically
986. # May 21 23:57:27 <hsivonen> Philip`: only in 2D
987. # May 21 23:57:27 <-- othermaciej has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
988. # May 21 23:57:27 <Philip`> Indeed - in that case it does make sense :-)
989. # May 21 23:57:31 <takkaria> hmm, this discussion would then be a tangent of a tangent of a tangent...
990. # May 21 23:57:49 --> othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #whatwg
991. # May 21 23:58:19 <Philip`> hsivonen: s/straight line/(N-1)-dimensional plane in an N-dimensional space/
992. # May 21 23:59:16 * Philip` hopes he didn't get that entirely wrong
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994. # May 21 23:59:39 <hsivonen> the attribute names are much worse than the element names
995. # May 21 23:59:45 --> othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #whatwg

The end :)