/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-05-23 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri May 23 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  17. # [00:44] <Lachy> re this post about fragment identifiers http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008May/0509.html ...
  18. # [00:45] <Lachy> couldn't xpointer just be fixed up and defined in terms of the DOM, so that it would work the same in HTML as it would with XHTML?
  19. # [00:45] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.182) (Remote closed the connection)
  20. # [00:45] <Hixie> xpointer is not resilient to changes
  21. # [00:45] <Hixie> which is imho a pretty important requirement for this idea
  22. # [00:46] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.182)
  23. # [00:46] <Dashiva> xpathref!
  24. # [00:46] <annevk> same issue
  25. # [00:46] <Hixie> hsivonen: i'm not replying to your mail "Re: A comment to character encoding declaration" earlier today since i've sent mail on those subjects already
  26. # [00:46] <Hixie> let me know if i missed something
  27. # [00:46] <Hixie> oh actually nevermind
  28. # [00:46] <Hixie> i'll just reply
  29. # [00:49] <Lachy> would it be possible to fix xpointer so that it is resilliant to changes? Since it already exists, and if this turns out to be a valid use case to address, wouldn't it be better to improve what we have instead of defining somethng totally new?
  30. # [00:51] <annevk> i don't think anything would be resilliant to changes other than id=
  31. # [00:51] <annevk> and even that isn't so maybe that point is moot
  32. # [00:52] <annevk> anyway, one university guy suggesting a feature does not a use case make
  33. # [00:52] <Dashiva> There is a userjs for it :)
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  35. # [00:55] <Hixie> ok what spec defines the syntax of mime media types?
  36. # [00:55] <Hixie> rfc2045 doesn't seem to define them separate from cotent-type headers
  37. # [00:55] <Hixie> and doesn't seem to define quoted-string at all
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  39. # [00:56] * Quits: phsiao (n=shawn@nat/ibm/x-70bff5882e723639)
  40. # [00:56] <Hixie> hmm, rfc2616 (http) seems to define them
  41. # [00:56] <Hixie> i can use that
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  43. # [00:59] * jmb^ is now known as jmb
  44. # [01:11] <Hixie> Philip`: yt?
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  47. # [01:14] <Hixie> eh nm
  48. # [01:14] <Hixie> well
  49. # [01:14] <Hixie> when you get back, could you add some tests to http://philip.html5.org/demos/html/charset-parsing/ ?
  50. # [01:14] <Hixie> specifically:
  51. # [01:15] <Hixie> <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset='...'">
  52. # [01:15] <Hixie> <meta http-equiv="content-type" content='text/html; charset="..."'>
  53. # [01:15] <Hixie> <meta http-equiv="content-type" content='text/html; test="; charset="..."'>
  54. # [01:16] <Hixie> <meta http-equiv="content-type" content='text/html; test="test"; charset="..."'>
  55. # [01:16] <Hixie> <meta http-equiv="content-type" content='text/html; test="; charset=...'>
  56. # [01:16] <Hixie> <meta http-equiv="content-type" content='text/html; test="test"; charset=...'>
  57. # [01:17] <Hixie> <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; test='; charset=...">
  58. # [01:17] <Hixie> <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; test='test'; charset=...">
  59. # [01:18] * annevk wonders why JB didn't join the FTF himself
  60. # [01:18] <Philip`> Hixie: Hello
  61. # [01:18] <Hixie> hello
  62. # [01:18] * Philip` updates his list
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  65. # [01:20] <annevk> heh, your file names are hex numbered
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  68. # [01:23] <Philip`> Hixie: Updated
  69. # [01:23] <Philip`> annevk: Oops, that was unintentional
  70. # [01:23] <Philip`> I think I intended %02d, but I wrote %02x
  71. # [01:24] <Hixie> Philip`: thanks
  72. # [01:24] <annevk> would %03d be three digits?
  73. # [01:24] <Philip`> Hmm, my default font isn't great at distinguishing " and ''
  74. # [01:24] <Hixie> something seems to be wrong
  75. # [01:24] <Philip`> annevk: Yes (zero-padded)
  76. # [01:25] <Philip`> Hixie: Could you be slightly more specific?
  77. # [01:25] <Hixie> i'm trying to figure out what is wrong :-)
  78. # [01:25] <Philip`> Do you just have a vague sense of unease, and no idea what the problem is?
  79. # [01:25] <hober> annevk: IIRC, at the time, it was believed that ((both wgs should have chairs on the ftf) xor (neither wg should have chairs on the ftf))
  80. # [01:25] <Hixie> the lines appear to be duplicated
  81. # [01:26] <Hixie> rom the first <meta charset="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">: not utf-8 to the end seems to just be a duplication of the earlier set
  82. # [01:26] * Philip` notes that he gets a lot of "service temporarily unavailable" when loading the charset page in IE, but that's Dreamhost's fault
  83. # [01:26] <Hixie> nevermind
  84. # [01:26] <Hixie> cache problem
  85. # [01:27] <Philip`> Ah
  86. # [01:27] <Philip`> I added the new ones kind of near the top, so all the others got renumbered
  87. # [01:27] <annevk> hmm, seems that implementations simply scan for "charset="
  88. # [01:28] <Hixie> ok webkit is clearly just doing that, indeed
  89. # [01:28] <Hixie> IE, not so much
  90. # [01:28] <annevk> Opera and Firefox seem to be doing that too
  91. # [01:29] <annevk> (that's the two I tested, I didn't check IE or WebKit)
  92. # [01:29] <Hixie> firefox uses the same algorithm on charset="" as content=""
  93. # [01:29] <Hixie> webkit does what html5 says
  94. # [01:29] <Hixie> for charset=""
  95. # [01:30] <Hixie> opera freaked out on me the first time, let's try again
  96. # [01:30] <Hixie> ok yeah opera's scrollbar can't handle that page, wtf
  97. # [01:30] <annevk> "<meta charset="text/html; charset=utf-8">: not utf-8 " is what I get in Firefox
  98. # [01:30] <Hixie> opera does the same as webkit except it checks the http-equiv attribute
  99. # [01:30] <Hixie> what build?
  100. # [01:31] <annevk> "Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9b5pre) Gecko/2008031504 Minefield/3.0b5pre"
  101. # [01:31] <Hixie> weird
  102. # [01:32] <Hixie> also weird, IE8 supports charset='...' but not charset="...", the latter of which is the only valid one...
  103. # [01:32] <annevk> so my Firefox builds seems to have a different algo for charset=
  104. # [01:33] <annevk> I think both Opera and IE check http-equiv
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  106. # [01:35] <Hixie> there are now three occurances of the term "willful violation" in the spec
  107. # [01:37] * Joins: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@dhcp-0000036913-b5-5e.client.fas.harvard.edu)
  108. # [01:38] <annevk> spec lawyers rejoice
  109. # [01:40] <Dashiva> If you violate a should for a valid reason, is it still considered a violation?
  110. # [01:43] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.105.221)
  111. # [01:43] <annevk> nope
  112. # [01:47] <annevk> http://signified.com.au/a-poem-element-for-html5/
  113. # [01:49] * MikeSmith awakens and confronts long scrollback buffer for #whatwg in irc client
  114. # [01:50] <annevk> MikeSmith, we don't have membership fees, we just want all your time :)
  115. # [01:52] <Dashiva> MikeSmith: I could bring in a comic chat client to make amusing comic strip representations of the logs
  116. # [01:53] * Quits: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) ("ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)")
  117. # [01:59] * MikeSmith completes reading of scrollback
  118. # [02:00] * MikeSmith records data point: 6 hours of #whatwg scrollback took about 5 minutes to read
  119. # [02:02] <Hixie> so about 1 minute an hour
  120. # [02:02] <Hixie> not bad
  121. # [02:03] <Philip`> Took much longer for us to write all that
  122. # [02:03] <MikeSmith> annevk: re: time -- I find that the time I choose to invest in #whatwg discussions and reading usually pays better returns than time I'm obligated to spend on some other things
  123. # [02:04] <MikeSmith> Dashiva: yes, comic chat client, please.. could recruit the Wizard and/or Magic Fairy to do that, maybe
  124. # [02:05] <Dashiva> Microsoft already made it, many years ago
  125. # [02:05] <MikeSmith> cheers to Microsoft for that
  126. # [02:10] <MikeSmith> btw, 'twas I that suggested to Erik Wilde that he join the HTML WG and post his thoughts on fragments IDs
  127. # [02:10] <MikeSmith> though I do recognize the heinous-ness of xpointer will prevent it from being practical for this case
  128. # [02:14] <MikeSmith> and on the topic of joining the HTML WG and public-html list, questions I get from people now and then are, Can I get the list messages in digest form, or do you have a "no mail" option, or [some other way that they can avoid getting all the list mail but still remain in the group]
  129. # [02:14] <MikeSmith> I'm not sure what is the right thing to tell people
  130. # [02:15] <Hixie> "join the whatwg list, it has both of those options"
  131. # [02:16] <MikeSmith> Hixie: yeah, I always tell people that anyway
  132. # [02:16] <Hixie> :-)
  133. # [02:17] * Joins: jruderman_ (n=jruderma@guest-226.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  134. # [02:18] <MikeSmith> about public-html, I usually say, Good opportunity/test-case for you to learn about the client-side filtering capabilities in your mail client .. or to switch to a mail client that has good filtering
  135. # [02:18] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@guest-226.mountainview.mozilla.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  136. # [02:41] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008May/0056.html
  137. # [02:41] <MikeSmith> saved for re-use later
  138. # [02:41] <MikeSmith> my "boilerplate response about mailing-list traffic volume"
  139. # [02:41] <MikeSmith> which took roughly 15 minutes for me to think up and write
  140. # [02:43] <MikeSmith> longer that I thought it would, but 15 minutes less than it will take me next time I get the same question
  141. # [02:44] <MikeSmith> I guess I should put that (in another form) up on the HTML WG website somewhere
  142. # [02:46] <jacobolus> MikeSmith: I'm not sure “you'll get tons of spam, and it will be a good life/technical lesson to deal with it” is really so compelling
  143. # [02:59] <MikeSmith> jacobolus: patches welcome
  144. # [03:02] <jacobolus> MikeSmith: how about “each email on the list contains a pearl of wisdom which will brighten your life: if you find the amount of traffic overwhelming, it will only be because you are insufficiently appreciative of your good fortune”
  145. # [03:02] * Quits: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  148. # [03:06] <MikeSmith> jacobolus: about pearls of wisdom, I already have a site for automatically dispensing those:
  149. # [03:06] <MikeSmith> http://logopoeia.com/wisdom/
  150. # [03:06] <jacobolus> whoa! Our DNA was altered to conceal the cosmic secret of timbral magnetism raster mathematics.
  151. # [03:08] <jacobolus> 5 steps include: “Memorize homeopathic law,” and “Make time law your guide.”
  152. # [03:08] <jacobolus> I want to know what “homeopathic law” and “time law” are, so I can follow these
  153. # [03:15] * Quits: kingryan (n=ryan@c-24-5-77-167.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  154. # [03:22] <MikeSmith> so I think I have come to terms with twitter and found what is for me at least a way to use it productively that doesn't require a lot of time:
  155. # [03:22] <MikeSmith> http://twitter.com/sideshowbarker
  156. # [03:24] <MikeSmith> mainly as a personal+social bookmarking mechanism
  157. # [03:39] <Hixie> anne and mjs should read para2 of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-html-cg/2008AprJun/0082.html
  158. # [03:40] <Hixie> pity that the guy anne cited above on poems doesn't buy my line that <p> is defined as meaning "stanza"
  159. # [03:51] <Dashiva> cg?
  160. # [03:57] <Hixie> coordination group
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  235. # [10:15] <hsivonen> what's the relationship of the proposed zip: URI scheme and the existing jar: URI scheme?
  236. # [10:19] <annevk> jar: opens up the ZIP file and then does addressing while zip: would be an internal thing afaict
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  240. # [10:25] <Hixie> othermaciej, annevk: para 2 of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-html-cg/2008AprJun/0082.html
  241. # [10:26] <othermaciej> awesome
  242. # [10:26] <annevk> yeah, I read that before I want to bed
  243. # [10:27] <annevk> I also wrote something in this channel "/me wonders why JB didn't join the FTF himself"
  244. # [10:27] <Hixie> ah
  245. # [10:31] <othermaciej> I need to turn my list of possible architectural consistency principles into some sort of draft
  246. # [10:32] <othermaciej> I have so much (English) writing to do
  247. # [10:32] <othermaciej> also need to justify our ES4 votes
  248. # [10:32] <othermaciej> and reply on Hixie's thread about forward-compatible syntax for ES4
  249. # [10:32] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-71-204-153-3.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  250. # [10:32] <othermaciej> and call bullshit on chris wilson's security comments
  251. # [10:32] <othermaciej> ugh
  252. # [10:32] <othermaciej> gonna be a long weekend
  253. # [10:32] <Hixie> you're not supposed to do this stuff on the weekend
  254. # [10:33] <Hixie> you're supposed to run pedestrians down in GTA4 on the weekend
  255. # [10:33] <othermaciej> but I don't have time to get anything done during the week
  256. # [10:33] <Hixie> ah well
  257. # [10:33] <Hixie> neither do i
  258. # [10:33] <othermaciej> the wonders of management
  259. # [10:33] <othermaciej> actually I coded a lot this week
  260. # [10:33] <othermaciej> but making JavaScript run really fast is actually kind of fun
  261. # [10:35] <Hixie> is JS execution a bottleneck on the web?
  262. # [10:35] <roc> yes
  263. # [10:35] <Hixie> i thought dom calls were by far the bottleneck in js execution
  264. # [10:36] <roc> sometimes they are
  265. # [10:36] <Hixie> interesting
  266. # [10:36] <roc> that's the great thing about the Web. everything's a bottleneck, depending on what you look at
  267. # [10:37] <Hixie> heh
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  270. # [10:38] <othermaciej> Hixie: both can be
  271. # [10:38] <othermaciej> our DOM has somewhat less room to speed it up
  272. # [10:38] <othermaciej> at least the core DOM
  273. # [10:38] <MikeSmith> so what good benchmarking mechanisms are there for measuring DOM performance?
  274. # [10:38] <MikeSmith> I know about those for measuring JS perf
  275. # [10:39] <othermaciej> I don't know if any are great
  276. # [10:39] <annevk> entities are safe for now, nice!
  277. # [10:39] <othermaciej> this is a clean microbenchmark: http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/perf/dom/artificial/core/001.html
  278. # [10:39] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: thanks
  279. # [10:39] <othermaciej> testing the non-querySelector non-XPath mode of JS selector libraries is a more realistic use pattern
  280. # [10:39] <othermaciej> though one we are hoping to obsolete
  281. # [10:40] <othermaciej> quirksmode.org also has some DOM perf tests but not rolled up nicely
  282. # [10:40] <Hixie> the ones in http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/perf/dom/real-world/ should be better, they're based on actual web sites
  283. # [10:40] <othermaciej> (all differnet ways of building a table DOM - amusingly innerHTML wins in every browser)
  284. # [10:42] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  285. # [10:42] <Hixie> someone really should make a job out of comparing browsers on a suite of benchmarks on reference hardware with care to making the tests fair, and then publishing hte results in graphical form regularly
  286. # [10:42] <othermaciej> doing one operation (with the same args) a bunch of times may not be representative of DOM performance generally speaking
  287. # [10:42] <Hixie> true
  288. # [10:42] <othermaciej> since caching means that mixed operations are often a tougher workload
  289. # [10:43] <othermaciej> Hixie: that would be nice - I am not enjoying resorting to making our own benchmarks
  290. # [10:43] <MikeSmith> holy god
  291. # [10:43] <othermaciej> but the market for independent browser benchmarks seems to have died
  292. # [10:43] <Hixie> yeah
  293. # [10:43] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: I can see why you might prefer that benchmark :)
  294. # [10:43] <othermaciej> also a lot of the perf/dom/real-world tests are really repaint tests
  295. # [10:44] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: if you compared WebKit to other browsers on that, I think the results it shows are real - we have done quite well since before we ever saw that benchmark
  296. # [10:44] <Hixie> a lot of the real world dom work relies on painting
  297. # [10:44] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: wow
  298. # [10:44] <Hixie> but yes, those tests are just a start
  299. # [10:44] <MikeSmith> extremely impressive
  300. # [10:44] <othermaciej> Hixie: sure, repaint performance is really important
  301. # [10:45] <othermaciej> separating things is kind of nice, at least for browser developers, though I am not sure what level of perf info granularity is interesting to content authors or end users
  302. # [10:46] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: this is the quirksmode test I was thinking of: http://www.quirksmode.org/dom/innerhtml.html
  303. # [10:46] <othermaciej> (his posted numbers are old though you gotta try it yourself)
  304. # [10:47] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: thanks
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  314. # [10:59] <othermaciej> Hixie: I can also tell you that on mobile devices JS execution is even more likely to be the bottleneck in web page performance (though not as much as the network itself)
  315. # [11:01] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: that's interesting.. why is that?
  316. # [11:01] <MikeSmith> why in particular on mobile
  317. # [11:01] <MikeSmith> because CPU-bound?
  318. # [11:02] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  319. # [11:02] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: and by "more" you mean specifically vs. DOM performance?
  320. # [11:02] <roc> cpus are slow
  321. # [11:02] <othermaciej> well I can't tell you that much about the mobile device I know most about, but yes, the CPUs tend to be less powerful
  322. # [11:02] <Hixie> othermaciej: interesting
  323. # [11:02] <roc> and they don't speculate well
  324. # [11:02] <othermaciej> ARM has practically no branch prediction
  325. # [11:02] <Hixie> that explains all the wild rumours
  326. # [11:02] <othermaciej> what wild rumors?
  327. # [11:03] <Hixie> about the iphone!
  328. # [11:03] <roc> the JS performance work we did for Firefox 3 sped up mobile by a greater factor than on PCs
  329. # [11:03] <MikeSmith> dual-core iPhone coming
  330. # [11:03] <othermaciej> there was a rumor that JS is slow on the iPhone?
  331. # [11:03] <Hixie> if they speculated better, the rumours would have been more accurate!
  332. # [11:03] <MikeSmith> heh
  333. # [11:03] <roc> hoho
  334. # [11:03] <roc> don't give up your day job
  335. # [11:04] * MikeSmith just now gets Hixie joke.. (I'm slow on teh uptake)
  336. # [11:04] * Hixie goes back to rejecting suggestions
  337. # [11:04] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  338. # [11:04] <roc> cool, he took my advice!
  339. # [11:05] <Hixie> i wish screen sharing on mac didn't turn the host's screen back on
  340. # [11:06] <Hixie> i want to change the music my mac mini is playing without turning on the massive light that is the screen
  341. # [11:06] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  342. # [11:06] <Hixie> since the lights are off in the room
  343. # [11:06] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  344. # [11:06] <roc> I'm a little bit afraid that CPUs might migrate to lots of dumb cores, with minimal speculation, no out-of-order, no wide-issue. That would really suck for JS performance
  345. # [11:06] <roc> but I don't think Intel thinks much about JS performance
  346. # [11:07] <annevk> they prolly should...
  347. # [11:08] <Hixie> well, given JS' importance in the coming years, whoever _does_ think about it may end up having an advantage
  348. # [11:08] <othermaciej> that would suck for performance of any language that is not easily parallelizable
  349. # [11:08] <othermaciej> which is... almost all of them
  350. # [11:08] <othermaciej> the hardware people are going multicore because they can't make the cores much faster any more, at least not to the same degree
  351. # [11:08] <roc> it sucks less for languages where you can do more in the compiler
  352. # [11:08] <othermaciej> not cause they think any software people love inventing how to parallelize
  353. # [11:09] <othermaciej> it's certainly not great for C
  354. # [11:09] <roc> and it sucks more for languages where compilation depends on generating fast paths padded with lots of predictable guard code
  355. # [11:09] <othermaciej> it might be ok for Java since Java loves to spawn a hojillion threads
  356. # [11:10] * MikeSmith is reminded by this conversation of Knuth recent interview comments on multicore architecture - http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=1193856
  357. # [11:10] <othermaciej> branches are already the hot spots in most x86 code (well at least code that doesn't die from register pressure)
  358. # [11:10] <othermaciej> I doubt intel plans to make it worse
  359. # [11:10] <othermaciej> multicore is just the harware guys giving up on moore's law
  360. # [11:10] <roc> no
  361. # [11:10] <othermaciej> no one is ballsy enough to try to build, say, an async CPU
  362. # [11:10] <roc> Moore's law is still giving them transistors
  363. # [11:10] <othermaciej> well ok, moore's law as popularly misunderstood
  364. # [11:10] <othermaciej> they have more transistors but can't turn them into more serial speed
  365. # [11:11] <roc> yeah.
  366. # [11:11] <roc> Moore's law never applied to heat dissipation
  367. # [11:12] <Hixie> an async cpu?
  368. # [11:12] <othermaciej> you can build logic without a clock
  369. # [11:12] <othermaciej> but it's very hard to get right
  370. # [11:12] <othermaciej> taking out all the clock lines and the need for synchronization can make it much faster though
  371. # [11:12] <othermaciej> (in theory)
  372. # [11:13] <othermaciej> without more power dissipation (since you took out all the wires to spread the clock signal around the chip)
  373. # [11:13] <othermaciej> maybe memristors will make a good low-power substrate for logic somehow
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  376. # [11:16] <roc> we may end up with chips with hundreds of billions of transistors, but if you turn on more than 5% of them the computer melts
  377. # [11:17] <roc> which would make application-specific hardware feasible
  378. # [11:17] <roc> JS hardware
  379. # [11:17] <roc> mmmmmm
  380. # [11:18] <othermaciej> I'm sure that will be even more successful than the Java CPU
  381. # [11:18] <roc> hehe
  382. # [11:20] <Hixie> othermaciej: hm, interesting
  383. # [11:25] <Philip`> I think I've heard of some ARM CPU that can execute JVM bytecode directly - does anybody use that?
  384. # [11:27] <takkaria> there was an async ARM multiprocessor system for a while called Hydra
  385. # [11:27] <hsivonen> annevk: yes, HT is suggesting dispatch on nodeName
  386. # [11:28] <annevk> lol
  387. # [11:29] <annevk> the podcast Marcos and I made on this is live now, http://standardssuck.org/aria-in-html5
  388. # [11:29] <annevk> it's too long and probably too boring to watch, but it was fun to make :)
  389. # [11:31] <Lachy> ha! nice response to the comment on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tr0ra5hbFfo
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  396. # [11:37] <annevk> "Views: 209" I don't really buy that
  397. # [11:39] * Lachy couldn't stop watching it ;-)
  398. # [11:40] <Hixie> anything there i don't know already? :-)
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  400. # [11:41] <annevk> Hixie, I don't think so
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  402. # [11:45] * gsnedders expects there are quite a few nice bits in it, but he can't be bothered to watch it
  403. # [11:46] <gsnedders> (I have an exam starting in 2.3 hours)
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  412. # [12:08] * Hixie dons his asbestos suit again
  413. # [12:08] <hsivonen> annevk: there's no cabal!
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  416. # [12:13] <othermaciej> Hixie: on the other hand, allowing any vendor to extend the platform is how we ended up with <img> and <canvas>
  417. # [12:14] <annevk> "and suggesting that XML could somehow be replaced by HTML is like saying that JSON could somehow be replaced by Python." hmm
  418. # [12:14] <othermaciej> (but I am not gonna get into the extensibility debate)
  419. # [12:14] * hsivonen notes that some people prefer using python over json for configuration files
  420. # [12:14] <othermaciej> (and I'm not sure I really want to cite <canvas> as a positive example)
  421. # [12:14] <annevk> othermaciej, <canvas> is the reason Apple now proposes stuff before implementing
  422. # [12:15] <othermaciej> ok lemme put it this way
  423. # [12:15] <Hixie> othermaciej: <img> was proposed to the community first
  424. # [12:15] <annevk> though maybe I don't need to tell you that :)
  425. # [12:15] <Hixie> othermaciej: <canvas> was a mitigated disaster
  426. # [12:15] <othermaciej> <canvas> sucks in details, but unlike <marquee> it does not suck in its very concept
  427. # [12:15] <othermaciej> it would be nice if it were better but it isn't in the "should not even exist" category
  428. # [12:15] <hsivonen> othermaciej: you are being culturally insensitive
  429. # [12:16] <othermaciej> hsivonen: to IE developers?
  430. # [12:16] <Hixie> othermaciej: <canvas> as a technology is fine. as an example of how we want the language extended process-wise, it's a terrible example.
  431. # [12:16] <hsivonen> othermaciej: no, to Chinese Web authors
  432. # [12:16] * Philip` wonders why so many people with high-profile sites still choose to use <marquee> if it sucks
  433. # [12:16] <Hixie> othermaciej: we're still dealing with the effects of decisions apple made without consulting with the community
  434. # [12:16] <Hixie> othermaciej: e.g. the lack of a Path object
  435. # [12:17] <othermaciej> really? a Path object is easy to add
  436. # [12:17] <othermaciej> the parts of <canvas> that suck are the things that are terrible but that can't be taken away
  437. # [12:17] <othermaciej> however, if Apple had tried to follow W3C process, <canvas> would not exist
  438. # [12:17] <Hixie> adding a path object would likely either result in duplication of a chunk of the api or a very odd api
  439. # [12:17] <othermaciej> WHATWG process is certainly more conducive to stuff actually happening
  440. # [12:18] <Hixie> othermaciej: but anyway
  441. # [12:18] <othermaciej> Hixie: it's not uncommon for graphics context APIs to both have an implicit context path and explicit paths
  442. # [12:18] <othermaciej> (that is in fact how CoreGraphics works for instance)
  443. # [12:18] <Hixie> othermaciej: even if canvas was a brilliant example of perfection, it's still the case that we don't want individuals and vendors unilaterally extending text/html without community involvement
  444. # [12:18] <Philip`> othermaciej: Maybe that's because they all had the same lack of foresight when designing the initial API, and then had to remain backward compatible? :-)
  445. # [12:19] <Hixie> heh
  446. # [12:19] <othermaciej> no, it's just convenient to have an implicit path
  447. # [12:19] <othermaciej> same as it is convenient to be able to draw a rect directly, even though you could use lineTo
  448. # [12:20] <othermaciej> I don't think the implicit path is an API flaw
  449. # [12:20] <othermaciej> lack of explicit paths is an (easily rectified) API flaw
  450. # [12:21] <othermaciej> transforms affecting the creation of the implicit path is just plain weird but I can't remember if that is our fault or Mozilla's ultimately
  451. # [12:21] <annevk> I wonder what happens with a WG vote
  452. # [12:21] <annevk> on that issue
  453. # [12:22] <hsivonen> annevk: the WG votes to do something that has not been shown to be doable
  454. # [12:22] <othermaciej> globalAlpha / globalCompositeOperation is not a great design (better to push and pop transparency layers)
  455. # [12:23] <othermaciej> the fact that strokeStyle and fillStyle take random assortments of objects, some of which may be strings but none of which may be a CSSOM color is pretty daft
  456. # [12:23] * Philip` still likes transforms affecting path creation, because otherwise it's impossible to do things like stoked ellipses
  457. # [12:23] <hsivonen> I'd love to see a vote where voting Yes required supplementing the vote with a concrete proposal
  458. # [12:23] <annevk> hsivonen, yeah, I'm not really sure how the numbers turn out, but I think people will request namespaces
  459. # [12:24] <Philip`> s/stoked/stroked/
  460. # [12:24] <Hixie> supplementing the vote with a concrete proposal is easy and such proposals have been put forward many times
  461. # [12:24] <Hixie> supplementing the vote with a concrete WORKING proposal is what would be interesting
  462. # [12:24] <Hixie> but i've no idea how to require that
  463. # [12:25] <Philip`> Require each proposal to be shipped in a web browser with at least 1% market share before you're allowed to vote 'yes' with that proposal
  464. # [12:25] <othermaciej> that's a harsh requirement
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  467. # [12:27] <Hixie> haha
  468. # [12:27] <Hixie> that'd be awesome
  469. # [12:27] <annevk> otoh, you need to have some buy in from implementors
  470. # [12:27] <hsivonen> I wonder if data-* could be supported using NVDL or if I need to escape outside of schemas
  471. # [12:27] <othermaciej> anyway, I am certainly not a fan of unilateral extensions as the first option
  472. # [12:27] <othermaciej> and in WebKit the only area where we have had any recently afaik is CSS
  473. # [12:27] <Hixie> vendor-prefixed ones in css are ok, given css's fallback model
  474. # [12:27] <Hixie> and you are working with the csswg on those
  475. # [12:27] <annevk> RB continues misunderstanding how namespaces work
  476. # [12:28] <hsivonen> does anyone know if NVDL has a human-readable (non-ISO) spec too?
  477. # [12:28] <Hixie> at least, insofar as they are letting you work with them
  478. # [12:28] <annevk> he's a fine example of why we should keep them outside of HTML :)
  479. # [12:28] <hsivonen> annevk: indeed
  480. # [12:28] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) (Client Quit)
  481. # [12:28] * hsivonen doesn't like ISO drafting rules
  482. # [12:29] <annevk> hsivonen, oh schemas don't have part of attribute name wildcards?
  483. # [12:29] * annevk foresees trouble getting data-* into SVG
  484. # [12:29] <hsivonen> annevk: RELAX NG doesn't
  485. # [12:30] <hsivonen> annevk: RELAX NG allows you to wildcard the whole attribute or the local name but not part of the local name
  486. # [12:30] <annevk> data-* is one of the things I hope everyone implement quickly and we can advocate a lot
  487. # [12:31] <annevk> so that people start switching over and we get less issues introducing new attributes
  488. # [12:32] * hsivonen wonders what ISO specs *aren't* fast-tracked
  489. # [12:33] <Philip`> C++?
  490. # [12:33] <hsivonen> perhaps
  491. # [12:35] <hsivonen> comparing OASIS and ISO versions of RELAX NG specs is a great example of how ISO makes specs unapproachable
  492. # [12:36] <hsivonen> bah. I'm just going to write a SAX filter that throws data-* out
  493. # [12:37] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  494. # [12:38] <hsivonen> I wonder how to best expose the filter in the generic UI...
  495. # [12:38] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  497. # [12:40] <hsivonen> I wonder if I should model data-* as a magic namespace
  498. # [12:41] * hsivonen decides to unify namespace dropping code and data-* dropping code
  499. # [12:42] <hsivonen> no doubt this will make people scream
  500. # [12:44] * hsivonen temporarily undoes the decision
  501. # [12:46] <hsivonen> because that would allow data-* on non-HTML elements as a side effect
  502. # [12:47] <hsivonen> generic is hard
  503. # [12:49] <Lachy> is allowing data-* on non-HTML elements necessarily a bad thing?
  504. # [12:49] <hsivonen> Lachy: not if I can blame it on Hixie :-)
  505. # [12:49] <hsivonen> Lachy: currently I can't AFAICT
  506. # [12:50] <Lachy> it's not really that much different from allowing aria-* on generic elements
  507. # [12:50] <annevk> i'd like data-* to be generic like aria-*
  508. # [12:50] <Hixie> there is one major difference
  509. # [12:50] <hsivonen> Lachy: I don't allow aria-* on generic elements
  510. # [12:50] <Hixie> in that no spec allows it yet :-)
  511. # [12:50] <annevk> though maybe we should have some more experience with data-* first
  512. # [12:50] <hsivonen> Lachy: and technically the two are *very* different in V.nu
  513. # [12:50] <Lachy> Hixie, that's only a minor barrier to get across
  514. # [12:51] <annevk> putting it in the spec is, dealing with the storm of comments might be more tough
  515. # [12:51] <hsivonen> as of ARIA 1.0, the aria-foo attributes can be finitely enumerated
  516. # [12:51] <hsivonen> the data-* attributes cannot, because they are countably infinite
  517. # [12:51] <Lachy> filing such comments in the 'ignore' folder is an effective way to deal with them
  518. # [12:53] <hsivonen> also, aria-foo is more sensitive to validation than just throwing away, which is basically what data-* needs
  519. # [12:53] <annevk> I don't like that MathML strips whitespace and such in attributes
  520. # [12:54] <hsivonen> annevk: as implemented, it doesn't
  521. # [12:54] <hsivonen> annevk: spec bug, IMO
  522. # [12:54] * Joins: jmb (n=jmb@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk)
  523. # [12:54] <hsivonen> annevk: V.nu deliberately violates the MathML spec here
  524. # [12:57] <annevk> are they fixing it?
  525. # [12:57] <Hixie> see mail from david just now
  526. # [12:57] <Hixie> wait
  527. # [12:58] <Hixie> what do you mean it strips whitespace?
  528. # [12:58] <Hixie> during parsing?
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  532. # [13:00] <annevk> Hixie, type=" checkbox " is not a checkbox in HTML, for similar constructs in MathML that would be a "checkbox"
  533. # [13:01] <hsivonen> according to spec that is--not according to Gecko
  534. # [13:02] <hsivonen> annevk: I got the impression they didn't want to fix the spec
  535. # [13:06] <Hixie> annevk: ah
  536. # [13:06] <Hixie> how silly
  537. # [13:07] * Hixie reads the mail in his AAA-Productivity folder
  538. # [13:07] <Hixie> there was nothing there that my life would have been worse if i had missed reading it
  539. # [13:07] <Hixie> glad my filters are still working well
  540. # [13:07] <annevk> is that like really good or is it some vague remark to accessibility?
  541. # [13:08] <annevk> ah, guess that explains it :)
  542. # [13:08] <othermaciej> I assume it is a hack for a mail client that insists on alphabetizing IMAP folders or something
  543. # [13:08] <Hixie> it's a carefully named folder
  544. # [13:09] <annevk> othermaciej, then you'd have used ZZZ-x :)
  545. # [13:09] <Lachy> I don't see an aaa-productivity folder on whatwg.org/issues/ - what's in it?
  546. # [13:09] <Hixie> which fully shows the importance i place on its contents
  547. # [13:09] <Hixie> in case someone should stumble across it one day
  548. # [13:09] <Hixie> i wouldn't want them insulted
  549. # [13:09] <othermaciej> heh
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  551. # [13:10] <Hixie> Lachy: all mail sent from: or to: someone who sends, ah, very important e-mails
  552. # [13:10] <Hixie> and who causes people to send even more important e-mails
  553. # [13:11] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  554. # [13:11] <roc> I'm pretty sure we trim whitespace when interpreting MathML attributes
  555. # [13:11] <roc> at least in most cases
  556. # [13:17] <hsivonen> roc: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-math/2007Dec/0008.html
  557. # [13:18] <hsivonen> roc: I haven't retested with Firefox 3
  558. # [13:19] <Hixie> 2188 e-mails to go
  559. # [13:19] <Hixie> i guess i'll do that tomorrow
  560. # [13:19] <Hixie> bed time no
  561. # [13:19] <Hixie> w
  562. # [13:19] <annevk> tomororw, huh? hah
  563. # [13:20] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  564. # [13:20] <annevk> g'night
  565. # [13:20] <roc> hsivonen: oh well
  566. # [13:23] <Hixie> kittens, why are you all still arguing this aria- thing
  567. # [13:24] * hsivonen isn't
  568. # [13:24] * annevk is not a kitten
  569. # [13:25] <annevk> but yeah...
  570. # [13:25] <othermaciej> you should just give up and join the Cult of the Sacred:Colon
  571. # [13:26] <othermaciej> don't worry about why:you are using:it, just use:it every:where
  572. # [13:26] <annevk> it:starts making:sense null:now
  573. # [13:26] <Hixie> anne: i meant "kittens" as a word of exasperation, not a reference to you :-P
  574. # [13:26] <Hixie> like people say "jesus"
  575. # [13:26] <Hixie> anyway
  576. # [13:26] <annevk> i know :D
  577. # [13:26] <Hixie> really going to bed now :-)
  578. # [13:26] <Hixie> nn
  579. # [13:26] <othermaciej> me too
  580. # [13:27] <annevk> see you guys tonight
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  590. # [15:01] * Philip` notices that he has zero pages using &lang; or &rang;
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  596. # [15:46] <Lachy> http://my.opera.com/core/blog/selectors-api
  597. # [15:46] <Lachy> that was posted yesterday. It's Opera's new blog for the Core department
  598. # [15:50] * Dashiva pokes Lachy with a [] instead of new Array()
  599. # [15:52] <Lachy> both work
  600. # [15:52] <Lachy> Is there a reason to prefer [] over new Array();?
  601. # [15:52] <Philip`> But one is horrifically ugly
  602. # [15:52] <MikeSmith> Lachy: is this hardcore or softcore?
  603. # [15:52] <Lachy> which one?
  604. # [15:52] <MikeSmith> or slowcore?
  605. # [15:53] <MikeSmith> Lachy: nuttin' ... was just making a dumb joke
  606. # [15:53] <Dashiva> Lachy: new Array is slower, longer, and error-prone when the array is initialized to contain a single number
  607. # [15:53] <MikeSmith> Lachy: you work for Lars-Erik?
  608. # [15:53] <Philip`> Lachy: The one that doesn't look like Perl or Python
  609. # [15:54] <Lachy> MikeSmith, Wilhelm is my manager
  610. # [15:55] <Lachy> Lars Erik is the manager of the whole core dept. I think
  611. # [15:56] <Lachy> Philip`, anything that doesn't look like Perl has to look good :-)
  612. # [15:56] <Philip`> Lachy: There really needs to be a link from the individual posts back to the blog's front page
  613. # [15:56] <Philip`> (like making the heading image be a link back)
  614. # [15:57] <Philip`> (Also pretty much every other Opera blog has that same stupid usability bug)
  615. # [15:57] <Lachy> there are a lot of things that my.opera needs to improve. I'll pass that onto the appropriate people
  616. # [15:57] <Dashiva> That's because it's the default, probably :)
  617. # [15:58] * Quits: shepazu (n=schepers@vis189b.inria.fr)
  618. # [15:59] <Philip`> Dashiva: I thought I remembered hearing that new Array(...) was significantly faster than [...] (in Firefox)
  619. # [15:59] <Lachy> I changed new Array() to [].
  620. # [16:00] <Lachy> hmm. I think I need to write a test to see which one really is faster.
  621. # [16:00] <Philip`> var t=new Date();for(var i=0;i<100000;++i)var z=[i,i,i,i,i,i];alert(new Date()-t)
  622. # [16:01] <Philip`> var t=new Date();for(var i=0;i<100000;++i)var z=new Array(i,i,i,i,i,i);alert(new Date()-t)
  623. # [16:01] <Philip`> In Firefox 3, the former takes 270ms, the latter takes 130ms
  624. # [16:01] <Philip`> but unless you're initialising a hundred thousand arrays you're not going to notice the difference so you should use [...] because it's so much prettier
  625. # [16:02] <Philip`> The same code in Opera 9.5 is the other way around, taking 430ms and 540ms
  626. # [16:04] <Philip`> In Safari 3.0 it's 160ms/130ms
  627. # [16:06] <Philip`> In IE6 it's roughly 950ms for both
  628. # [16:06] <Philip`> If you really care about performance, nobody uses Opera so you should use new Array()
  629. # [16:06] * Dashiva wonders if Philip` forgot about IE
  630. # [16:07] <Philip`> ?
  631. # [16:07] <Dashiva> IE7 is faster with [] than new Array
  632. # [16:07] * Joins: shepazu (n=schepers@vis189b.inria.fr)
  633. # [16:08] <Philip`> Oh
  634. # [16:08] * Quits: phsiao (n=shawn@c-71-233-78-251.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  635. # [16:09] <Dashiva> And for a proper test, you have to check with 0 and large_number_value initial values too :)
  636. # [16:09] * MikeSmith finally actually reads Lachy's Selectors API writeup at Opera core blog
  637. # [16:09] <MikeSmith> Lachy: nice article
  638. # [16:09] <MikeSmith> short but sweet
  639. # [16:09] <Lachy> thanks
  640. # [16:10] <Philip`> In IE7 on totally different hardware, both take about 1600ms
  641. # [16:10] <Philip`> Dashiva: Do you have evidence for your claim? :-)
  642. # [16:11] <MikeSmith> Lachy: is this the first public acknowledgment of the Selectors API support in Opera?
  643. # [16:11] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-e4e40215db57e396)
  644. # [16:12] <Philip`> Lachy: I think the first sentence in that article is too complex and hard to parse, but otherwise it looks good :-)
  645. # [16:13] <Lachy> Philip`, I don't see any problems with "The Selectors API specification currently being worked on within the WebAPI working group at the W3C defines DOM APIs designed to make it possible to select elements within the document using Selectors."
  646. # [16:13] <Lachy> would it work better if there were commas placed in it at appropriate places?
  647. # [16:14] <MikeSmith> The Selectors API specification (currently being worked on within the WebAPI working group at the W3C) defines DOM APIs designed to make it possible to select elements within the document using Selectors.
  648. # [16:14] <Philip`> Maybe "The Selectors API specification, currently being ... at the W3C, defines DOM APIs that make it possible ..."
  649. # [16:15] <Lachy> fixed
  650. # [16:17] <Philip`> I'd probably s/designed to make it possible/that make it possible/ too because there's too many verbs at the moment :-)
  651. # [16:17] <Philip`> but I could just be wrong
  652. # [16:17] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de) ("Verlassend")
  653. # [16:17] <Philip`> Anyway, the commas solve the problem where I misparsed the first half of the sentence when first reading it
  654. # [16:20] <Philip`> "Our implementation also partially supports the namespace resolver features" - is there any information on how partial that is?
  655. # [16:21] <Lachy> I can't remember what ours is missing.
  656. # [16:23] * Joins: billmason (n=billmaso@ip246.unival.com)
  657. # [16:24] <Lachy> actually, I think, as currently specced, it fully supports the NSResolver
  658. # [16:24] * Joins: qwert666 (n=qwert666@acbj115.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)
  659. # [16:25] <Lachy> the only issue is that our implementation doesn't deal with DOM modifications by the resolver according to the spec, but that's due to the fact that I haven't determined what to do about that yet
  660. # [16:25] <Lachy> although, please file bugs if you find them
  661. # [16:30] * Philip` finds a site which gives an ASP NullReferenceException if he tries to log in with Opera 9.2, but works fine in 9.5
  662. # [16:30] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  663. # [16:32] <Philip`> (which is kind of annoying because I don't want to use 9.5 yet)
  664. # [16:33] * Joins: phsiao (n=shawn@nat/ibm/x-5ff8efbcf360e7b4)
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  666. # [16:41] <Philip`> Oh, whoops, it was only failing in Opera 9.2 because I disabled referrer logging there
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  671. # [17:02] <annevk> Despite the flaws, Ubuntu is quite nice. Installed it within 30 minutes on a new PC and it seems that my mom is able to use it :)
  672. # [17:02] * Joins: shepazu (n=schepers@vis189b.inria.fr)
  673. # [17:03] <annevk> It complained about something related to the wireless card and drivers, but that worked so I'm not really sure what it was about...
  674. # [17:03] <annevk> Maybe they are "not free"
  675. # [17:16] * Joins: qwert666 (n=qwert666@acbj115.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)
  676. # [17:17] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  677. # [17:22] * Philip` wonders if installing Ubuntu from CD experiences the problems with OpenSSL
  678. # [17:22] <mpt> Philip`, yes, please make installing updates the first thing you do after restarting
  679. # [17:23] <mpt> We will have new CD images Real Soon Now
  680. # [17:25] <Philip`> (Fortunately I only have one Ubuntu server which is older than that bug so its keys are fine, and an Ubuntu VM image which is probably affected but is only run locally and accessed with serial-console-over-UDP instead of SSH)
  681. # [17:28] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
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  693. # [18:41] <MikeSmith> done.
  694. # [18:41] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/pubnotes/
  695. # [18:41] <MikeSmith> up to date, as of r1687 today
  696. # [18:42] <MikeSmith> corrections/additions welcome
  697. # [18:42] * Philip` wonders what HTML5 has to do with pubs
  698. # [18:42] <MikeSmith> heh
  699. # [18:43] <MikeSmith> I will take a rest f2f a while now
  700. # [18:43] <Philip`> "It primarily document changes" - documents
  701. # [18:44] * Quits: shepazu (n=schepers@vis189b.inria.fr)
  702. # [18:45] <Philip`> "You can find the source for the current version of this document in the [W3C source repository]." - that links to the latest version, not to the source or to a source repository browser
  703. # [18:45] <MikeSmith> Philip`: document/documents changes made
  704. # [18:47] <Philip`> "In the “Conformance checkers” subsection, the text of a statement was updated to now read (added text highlighted:" - missing ')'
  705. # [18:47] <MikeSmith> Philip`: source link fixed
  706. # [18:48] <Philip`> Validators complain because you need something like <blockquote><p><q>... and are missing the <p>, I think
  707. # [18:49] <MikeSmith> missing paren now added
  708. # [18:49] <Philip`> It might be kind of nice if the references to spec sections were links
  709. # [18:49] <MikeSmith> Philip`: yeah, I need to fix that blockquote part
  710. # [18:49] * Joins: shepazu (n=schepers@vis189b.inria.fr)
  711. # [18:49] <MikeSmith> karl pointed out the validity problem
  712. # [18:50] <MikeSmith> the source is in text/html and validates as HTML5 fine
  713. # [18:50] <MikeSmith> problem is that I need to transform it to XHTML per W3C pubrules
  714. # [18:50] <MikeSmith> I will make turn the references to spec sections into links tomorrow
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  716. # [18:50] <Philip`> <code class="element">embed</code> has kind of ugly blue-on-blue styling - might be nice to use the same styles as the spec
  717. # [18:52] <MikeSmith> yeah, I can switch that styling any time
  718. # [18:52] <MikeSmith> spec just uses orangered for everything
  719. # [18:53] <Philip`> The comma in "Section 2.2, Elements" looks unnatural to me - a colon or dot would seem more normal. (But I'm just being very picky, so feel free to ignore me ;-) )
  720. # [18:54] * Quits: shepazu (n=schepers@vis189b.inria.fr) (Client Quit)
  721. # [18:55] <hsivonen> annevk: I liked particularly the second half of the first episode of standards suck
  722. # [18:55] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-aa622411338dadc4)
  723. # [18:56] <Philip`> MikeSmith: "Some changes were made Within the “Dynamic markup insertion in XML” subsection in this section" - s/W/w/
  724. # [18:56] <hsivonen> annevk: just curious: what kind of decision process did you have for choosing the video host?
  725. # [18:57] <hsivonen> annevk: in particular, did you knowingly reject blip.tv?
  726. # [18:57] <MikeSmith> Philip`: yeah, I will probably globally replace the comma thing
  727. # [18:58] <MikeSmith> Philip`: made W->w change
  728. # [18:58] <Philip`> MikeSmith: "A placeholder for a “URLs” subsection was added, with editorial notes about what its intended will be." - lack of grammar near end of sentence
  729. # [18:58] <Philip`> or lack of a word or something
  730. # [18:58] * MikeSmith thinks he probably meant to put "intended purpose"
  731. # [18:59] <MikeSmith> made it "intended purpose"
  732. # [19:01] <Philip`> "the phrase “valid browsing context name” was emended to become" - I've never heard the word "emend" before :-)
  733. # [19:03] <MikeSmith> Philip`: yeah, any alternatives to that word welcome
  734. # [19:03] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: corrected?
  735. # [19:03] <MikeSmith> it is any actual real dictionary word
  736. # [19:04] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: improved, becoming
  737. # [19:04] <MikeSmith> "refined" is probably best
  738. # [19:05] * gsnedders isn't a very good thesaurus
  739. # [19:05] <MikeSmith> but I think I used "emend" to avoid overuse of "refined"
  740. # [19:06] <Philip`> MikeSmith: "In this section, an statement was added" s/n//
  741. # [19:06] <gsnedders> Philip`: that leaves "I this section, an statement was added"
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  743. # [19:07] <Philip`> gsnedders: No, these are context-sensitive regexps that only match in the intended location
  744. # [19:07] <gsnedders> Philip`: Ah.
  745. # [19:08] <Philip`> gsnedders: They are not mechanically computable, but that's okay because we're not computers
  746. # [19:09] <MikeSmith> Philip`: an->a changed
  747. # [19:12] <Philip`> MikeSmith: "This section concerns elements used to mark up content at the “text level” (as opposed to the “sectioning” or “grouping” levels." - missing ')', brain stack overflow
  748. # [19:13] <MikeSmith> Philip`: :) fixed
  749. # [19:15] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p5047-ipbf1403marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  750. # [19:15] <MikeSmith> one thing, I call the DOM formalisms "interface definitions" throughout.. most of the time, seems like we just call each instance of those "an IDL" .. which I've never really liked and which I don't think casual readers are going to understand
  751. # [19:16] <Philip`> MikeSmith: It might be helpful to group changes, e.g. the removal of automatic cross referencing results in a lot of elements having "In this section, the following statement was removed completely: “the title attribute has special semantics on this element when used with the dfn element”."
  752. # [19:16] <Philip`> which is kind of repetitive, and not immediately obvious that it's repetitive because it's always the same change
  753. # [19:16] <MikeSmith> Philip`: yeah, I thougt about that, but it sorta comes to a high-level choice of either grouping them by related change or grouping them by section
  754. # [19:17] <MikeSmith> ... and it seemed like strict grouping by section would be easier
  755. # [19:17] <MikeSmith> ... and I'm lazy so I went with that
  756. # [19:17] <Philip`> so perhaps all the later elements should just say "Affected by the <a href=#xref-removal>removal of automatic cross referencing</a>" and point back at the bit in dfn
  757. # [19:18] <MikeSmith> OK, yeah, that might work better
  758. # [19:18] <Philip`> Primarily grouping by section seems good; it just might be nice in a few places to cut across that sectioning system
  759. # [19:19] <MikeSmith> true, yeah
  760. # [19:19] <Philip`> (The SVN logs are there for people who want things grouped by changes)
  761. # [19:21] <takkaria> MikeSmith: nice changelog!
  762. # [19:22] <Philip`> "the difficulties of attempting to mark up edits that cross implied paragraphs" occurs twice in adjacent sections, which seems unnecessarily repetitive; perhaps the first paragraph's parenthetical comment could be removed
  763. # [19:23] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-7592210ded26da88)
  764. # [19:24] <Philip`> "The prefatory text for one of the examples was updated to read:" - that's another word I don't think I've ever heard before :-p
  765. # [19:25] <Philip`> (That's not a bad thing, since it gives me a chance to expand my vocabulary :-) )
  766. # [19:25] <MikeSmith> takkaria: thanks
  767. # [19:25] <MikeSmith> Philip`: "introductory text" is maybe less pedantic
  768. # [19:26] <Philip`> "* an iframe name, ... * an iframe sandbox, ..." - that should probably say "attribute" somewhere
  769. # [19:27] <Philip`> Also that list is missing '.'s at the ends of sentences
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  771. # [19:28] <Philip`> and "conformance criteria were added in relation to behavior when the sandboxed plugins browsing context flag is set" is missing a capital letter and '.' which makes it inconsistent with the rest of its list
  772. # [19:28] <MikeSmith> Philip`: was intentional not to refer to with "attribute" .. to mean that those are abstract characteristics associated with the iframe
  773. # [19:28] <MikeSmith> ... but perhaps that doesn't make much sense
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  776. # [19:31] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Ah, that sounds reasonable
  777. # [19:31] <Philip`> MikeSmith: "This specification does not define a mechanism for interacting with third-party handlers, as it is expected to be user-agent-specific. Some UAs might opt to support a plugin mechanism such as the Netscape Plugin API; others may use remote content convertors or have built-in support for certain types."
  778. # [19:31] <MikeSmith> Philip`: I fixed the punctuation/caps stuff
  779. # [19:31] <Philip`> ^ that text was modified a bit, e.g. to remove the spelling errors, not just moved
  780. # [19:31] <Philip`> (and pubnotes has the old pre-modified version)
  781. # [19:31] <MikeSmith> OK
  782. # [19:32] <MikeSmith> I guess that was changed in the last few days
  783. # [19:32] <Philip`> (which confused me since I was looking for the spelling error in the spec and couldn't find it)
  784. # [19:32] <MikeSmith> will grabe the latest
  785. # [19:33] <MikeSmith> Philip`: you mean the text in 3.12.4 ?
  786. # [19:33] <Philip`> "In the “User interface” subsection, an instance of the phrase “if scripting is disabled” was changed to read, “if the media element is without script." - missing closing quote
  787. # [19:33] <MikeSmith> the "embed element" section?
  788. # [19:33] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Yes
  789. # [19:34] <MikeSmith> oK
  790. # [19:34] <MikeSmith> I think I will remove those blockquote excerpts from the embed section
  791. # [19:34] <MikeSmith> and just refer to them instead
  792. # [19:35] <MikeSmith> fixed the missing quote char
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  795. # [19:39] <Philip`> "The text of the section was revised to remove references to the colSpan and rowSpan DOM attributes and to instead reference the headers DOM attribute." - not sure what the exact changes were, but I'd guess it should be "also" rather than "instead"
  796. # [19:39] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM60-254-198-38.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Nick collision from services.)
  797. # [19:40] <Philip`> "the conformance requirements for the td and th elements now state they they implement interfaces that inherit from that interface" - s/they they/that they/
  798. # [19:41] * billyjack is now known as MikeSmith
  799. # [19:43] <MikeSmith> Philip`: change "headers" part to "and to add references to"
  800. # [19:43] <MikeSmith> "they they"->"that they" fixed
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  802. # [19:44] * aroben__ is now known as aroben
  803. # [19:44] <Philip`> "(Note that the “XXX4“ name is simply a placeholder; it is not intended that the method will be implemented with that literal name.)" - that's a shame :-(
  804. # [19:44] <MikeSmith> heh
  805. # [19:45] <MikeSmith> I am reasonably sure that if I didn't put that, somebody would post a message saying, What is it with the name of this XXX4 method?
  806. # [19:45] <Philip`> "The word “origin” was replaced by “value” in the sentence that now reads, “If the scheme is ‘file’, then the user agent may return a UA-specific value”, some instances of the phrase “the same as the origin” were refined to read “equal to the origin”." - should that be a semicolon before the "some"?
  807. # [19:46] * Quits: aroben_ (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  808. # [19:47] <MikeSmith> Philip`: made it a separate list item now
  809. # [19:48] <Philip`> "the addition of a statements related to the source browsing context" - s/s//
  810. # [19:48] <Philip`> or s/a // or whatever
  811. # [19:49] <Philip`> "The following not was added: The above algorithm is a willful violation of the HTTP specification." - s//e/ unless someone already mentioned that one
  812. # [19:49] <Philip`> "Also in he “Storing name/value pairs” subsection" - s//t/
  813. # [19:49] <MikeSmith> "a statements" fixed
  814. # [19:50] <MikeSmith> not->note fixed already
  815. # [19:50] <Philip`> "This section remains largely unchanged, though some significant changes were made to to — among those, the following:" - to to?
  816. # [19:51] <Philip`> "In the subsection that defines the “” link type, a statement was added that Only one link is created for the set of one or more “up” keywords and, if present, the “index” keyword." - is that really meant to be “”?
  817. # [19:51] <MikeSmith> toot toot fixed
  818. # [19:53] * Parts: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.123.87)
  819. # [19:53] <MikeSmith> Philip`: "" link type should have been "UP" .. fixed that
  820. # [19:53] <Philip`> "asyncronous"
  821. # [19:54] <MikeSmith> "asyncronous" fixed
  822. # [19:54] <Philip`> "the range “U+0030 DIGIT ZERO .. U+0039 DIGIT NINE” as added" - s/as/was/
  823. # [19:55] <Philip`> "statement were added"
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  827. # [19:57] <MikeSmith> "as added" fixed
  828. # [19:57] <Philip`> "to include named character references commonly used in MathML documents" - they're not "commonly used", they're just "potentially used" or "supported" or something
  829. # [19:58] <MikeSmith> "statement were" fixed
  830. # [19:59] <MikeSmith> Philip`: OK, I guess I will change that to "for potential use in MathML"
  831. # [19:59] <Philip`> Hixie: Section 10 (#no) says "This section is non-normative." but then 10.4 gives normative requirements
  832. # [19:59] <BenMillard> MikeSmith, I remember asking about a "no mail" option last year: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Jun/thread.html#msg1011 and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Jul/thread.html#msg77
  833. # [20:00] <MikeSmith> made it "of potential use"
  834. # [20:00] <MikeSmith> BenMillard: so what was the resolution of that?
  835. # [20:00] <BenMillard> MikeSmith, it seems W3C doesn't think you can participate in a group unless you are on the mailing list
  836. # [20:00] <MikeSmith> BenMillard: I guess that kind of makes sense
  837. # [20:00] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-7592210ded26da88) ("The computer fell asleep")
  838. # [20:01] <Dashiva> You could always sign up with an address you don't read mail for ;)
  839. # [20:01] <BenMillard> MikeSmith: written another way, it seems W3C thinks you can only participate if you are on the mailing list
  840. # [20:01] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Oh, I think I got to the end
  841. # [20:01] <MikeSmith> Philip`: cool. how long did it take?
  842. # [20:01] * Philip` checks his IRC history
  843. # [20:02] <Philip`> Um, too long :-p
  844. # [20:02] <MikeSmith> heh
  845. # [20:02] <MikeSmith> ~70mins maybe
  846. # [20:02] <Philip`> (More than an hour, though not entirely with full concentration)
  847. # [20:02] <MikeSmith> and you know this material pretty well already
  848. # [20:02] <hsivonen> looks like Marcos walked right into a bikeshed with widget: :-(
  849. # [20:03] <MikeSmith> Philip`: so I reckon it would be a good 90-minute read for somebody not familiar with it
  850. # [20:03] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah, dunno that he knew what he'd be in for
  851. # [20:03] <Philip`> MikeSmith: If they're trying to read and understand all of it, that sounds about reasonable
  852. # [20:03] <MikeSmith> ... I should have thought about it & warned him
  853. # [20:05] <MikeSmith> Philip`: thanks much
  854. # [20:06] <Philip`> MikeSmith: I'm not going to bother checking whether you missed any changes, but it looks quite comprehensive, so hopefully it will be helpful to people :-)
  855. # [20:07] <Philip`> MikeSmith: It'd be nice to summarise the high-level changes, for lazy people, like "Added support for inline MathML in the HTML syntax" and "Added simple text drawing API to <canvas>" etc
  856. # [20:07] <BenMillard> MikeSmith, it's certainly exhaustive. I think very few people will read all of it, or even any significant portion of it, but I can well imagine people skimming through to find out the history of their pet issue(s)
  857. # [20:08] <MikeSmith> Philip`: annevk did that already in a separate doc, so I will just make the build script pull that out from cvs and include it
  858. # [20:08] <MikeSmith> BenMillard: yeah, that's the use case
  859. # [20:08] <MikeSmith> mainly
  860. # [20:09] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Ah, right
  861. # [20:09] <MikeSmith> though annevk summary list is missing a few things that ought to be in it, I think
  862. # [20:10] <MikeSmith> ... though I can't think of specifically what at the moment
  863. # [20:10] <BenMillard> MikeSmith, annevk's doc has been updated during this month, so maybe what was missing has been added now?
  864. # [20:11] <BenMillard> (for the record, talking about this doc: http://dev.w3.org/html5/html4-differences/ I take it?)
  865. # [20:11] <MikeSmith> BenMillard: saw the latest a couple days back and remember not seeing something i thought should be there
  866. # [20:11] <BenMillard> ah, ok
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  872. # [20:34] <hsivonen> so it seems data-* is the first feature Hixie has introduced that RELAX NG is really bad at *allowing*
  873. # [20:35] <hsivonen> After pondering this, I think I'm going to make the preset HTML5 schemas magic and fake it
  874. # [20:35] <hsivonen> So I think at this point, I'm not going to expose this feature to custom schemas
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  876. # [20:38] <hsivonen> hendry: where did you get an instance of the Iris browser to run? is it shipping with some device already?
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  899. # [22:06] <takkaria> nice, a post from the IE team wanting to implement HTML5 behaviour in at least a bit of their parser
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  903. # [22:45] <Lachy> takkaria, it's unfortnate he missed the part in the spec where the answer is clearly spelled out for them
  904. # [22:45] <Lachy> it took me just a few minutes to find the appropriate section talking about the stack of open elements.
  905. # [22:46] <Philip`> That only helps if you know you're looking for the stack of open elements
  906. # [22:46] <Philip`> which is not an obvious thing to know when you're trying to work out what happens when a script changes its ancestor nodes
  907. # [22:46] <Lachy> Philip`, he should have. Hixie told him to look at that section http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/04/23/what-happened-to-operation-aborted.aspx#8423021
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  910. # [22:49] <takkaria> Lachy: it is unfortunate, but it's still dialogue
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  912. # [22:50] <Lachy> yeah, it's certainly good that they're trying to fix it.
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  914. # [23:07] * Hixie replies to travis
  915. # [23:11] <takkaria> Lachy: my main point being, they're asking *before* they implement rather than after
  916. # [23:13] <Hixie> as far as i can tell they're asking after they tried and failed :-)
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  921. # [23:27] <Lachy> Hixie, that's a really good explanation. Maybe you should consider adding it to the spec to illustate how the algorithm works.
  922. # [23:29] <Hixie> hm, good idea
  923. # [23:31] <Lachy> and a similar example for the adoption agency algorithm would help too
  924. # [23:31] <Hixie> yeah i plan on adding diagrams and stuff once the section is stable
  925. # [23:33] <takkaria> in SVG, I would hope :P
  926. # [23:34] * Parts: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
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  929. # [23:44] <annevk> hsivonen, I'd have to ask Marcos. I don't really know
  930. # [23:44] <annevk> I hope we start publishing the original files as well as I don't have Flash :)
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  933. # [23:48] <annevk> first spec I managed to get to CR involves namespaces: http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/CR-css3-namespace-20080523/
  934. # [23:48] <annevk> I hope everyone appreciates the irony just as much as I do
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  936. # Session Close: Sat May 24 00:00:00 2008

The end :)