/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-05-25 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun May 25 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  32. # [09:16] <Hixie> areas i could focus on next if no-one has any specific requests: ruby, abbr, alt, links, focus, usemap, sections
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  35. # [09:51] <annevk> Hixie, did you fix the <p> <span> <ol> thingie?
  36. # [09:51] <annevk> I guess nobody e-mailed about that
  37. # [09:53] <MikeSmith> Hixie: what would need to be done for sections?
  38. # [10:00] <Hixie> dunno, haven't looked in that folder :-)
  39. # [10:00] <Hixie> annevk: what issue?
  40. # [10:01] <annevk> Hixie, nesting <ol> inside <p> through means of a <span>
  41. # [10:01] <Hixie> it's already in the spec
  42. # [10:01] <Hixie> it's commented out
  43. # [10:01] <Hixie> search for XXXSPAN
  44. # [10:02] <annevk> the spec has "<p class="big-issue">This doesn't match browsers.</p>"
  45. # [10:02] <annevk> '<p><i><div><p>'
  46. # [10:02] <annevk> so maybe that's different
  47. # [10:04] <annevk> seems to be similar anyway
  48. # [10:04] <annevk> Hixie, in the parsing section there doesn't seem to be XXXSPAN
  49. # [10:05] <Hixie> oh i misunderstood which issue you meant
  50. # [10:05] <Hixie> yes
  51. # [10:05] <Hixie> i have no idea how to fix that particular issue
  52. # [10:05] <Hixie> and intend to not fix it unless someone can come up with a better solution :-)
  53. # [10:07] <annevk> you're hoping browsers will change?
  54. # [10:08] <Hixie> yes
  55. # [10:12] <Hixie> hm
  56. # [10:13] <Hixie> maybe it's just a matter of not closing ps unless the current element is a p
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  59. # [10:18] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I vote for having a sane ruby spec
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  62. # [10:32] <Hixie> no, it's more complicated than that, because i'd have to make <p> not look through non-formatting non-phrasing elements
  63. # [10:56] <annevk> ruby is fine with me too
  64. # [10:57] <annevk> i hope browsers will implement it at some point
  65. # [10:59] <jgraham> Is it allowed to ask you not to work on alt or abbr but to not mind otherwise? (because working on alt or abbr is a waste of everyone's time since there are people who will object whatever the spec says, so we will have to revisit the issue again anyway)
  66. # [11:00] <annevk> instead of asking that, you could just vote for the other options
  67. # [11:00] <annevk> :)
  68. # [11:00] <jgraham> (unless by "work on alt" you mean "organise some proper non-automated study into the way that @alt is used on the internet and how that varies with the other properties of the page" rather than "change the spec text about alt")
  69. # [11:00] <Lachy> jgraham, what's the problem with abbr? who would object?
  70. # [11:01] <jgraham> Lachy: There is a dormant prema-thread about abbr, no?
  71. # [11:01] <jgraham> s/prema/perma/
  72. # [11:03] <Lachy> oh, you mean that one where some people want to preserve the theoretical differences between abbr and acronym and add more attributes for fine grained control over them?
  73. # [11:03] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  74. # [11:04] <Hixie> jgraham: i have to reply to the feedback at some point
  75. # [11:04] <Lachy> the only good solution is to make abbr and acronym synonymous, since people use them interchangebly anyway.
  76. # [11:05] <Lachy> or just leave it as is with only abbr
  77. # [11:05] <Hixie> annevk: in fact, as far as i can tell, what the spec says is closer to what IE does than what the other browsers do
  78. # [11:05] <Hixie> it's also what firefox does
  79. # [11:06] <jgraham> Hixie: I know. But replying only has the effect of generating more feedback so if you prioritize those areas then you will never get anything else done
  80. # [11:06] <annevk> Hixie, my Firefox allows <p><span><ol>
  81. # [11:06] <jgraham> Lachy: Yeah that thread
  82. # [11:07] <Hixie> annevk: yes, it has a special case for <span>, but only <span>
  83. # [11:08] <annevk> Hixie, works for <i> too
  84. # [11:08] <Hixie> not for me
  85. # [11:08] <annevk> <!DOCTYPE html><p><i><p>x</p></i></p>x
  86. # [11:08] <annevk> is what I used
  87. # [11:08] <annevk> <!DOCTYPE html><p><i><ol><li>test</li></ol></i></p>x
  88. # [11:09] <annevk> works too
  89. # [11:09] <annevk> but it starts breaking down if you leave out some end tag
  90. # [11:09] <annevk> quite messy
  91. # [11:10] <Hixie> oh, you're including end tags
  92. # [11:10] <Hixie> well then sure
  93. # [11:10] <Hixie> firefox has a differet mode for that
  94. # [11:10] <Hixie> if all the tags match it just does exactly what the markup is most of hte time
  95. # [11:10] <annevk> interesting
  96. # [11:11] <Hixie> in any case what the spec does is still closer to what IE does
  97. # [11:11] <Hixie> even for <span>
  98. # [11:11] <Hixie> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%3Cstyle%3Ep%20{%20border%3A%20solid%20fuchsia%3B%20padding%3A%200.5em%3B%20}%20div%20{%20border%3A%20solid%20teal%3B%20padding%3A%200.5em%3B%20}%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0A...%3Ctable%3E%3Ctr%3E%3Ctd%3E%3Cp%3E%3Ci%3E%3Cdiv%3E%3Cp%3E%3C%2Ftable%3E%0A...%3Ctable%3E%3Ctr%3E%3Ctd%3E%3Cp%3E%3Cspan%3E%3Cdiv%3E%3Cp%3E%3C%2Ftable%3E%0A
  99. # [11:12] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@adsl-70-137-131-51.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net)
  100. # [11:13] <annevk> ok
  101. # [11:16] <Hixie> in fact for this:
  102. # [11:16] <Hixie> <!DOCTYPE html>...<p><span><p>...</p></span></p>...
  103. # [11:16] <Hixie> the DOM that HTML5 gives is as close to what IE does as you can get without the non-tree DOM thing
  104. # [11:16] <Hixie> and much cloer than what other browsers do
  105. # [11:17] <Hixie> in fact that particular case matches webkit pretty well
  106. # [11:18] <Hixie> and opera's rendering doesn't match its DOM
  107. # [11:18] * Hixie goes to remove the issue marker
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  109. # [11:20] <annevk> wow, video codec contains a lot of e-mails
  110. # [11:21] <annevk> Hixie, "Error loading folder contents: . Let Hixie know."
  111. # [11:22] <annevk> (stuff still works, so I'm not sure what's going on)
  112. # [11:23] <Hixie> weird
  113. # [11:23] <Hixie> let me know if it can be reproduced
  114. # [11:24] <annevk> after a refresh it's no longer there
  115. # [11:24] <Hixie> probably just memory issues on my server
  116. # [11:24] <annevk> btw, there's WF3-geo and geolocation
  117. # [11:24] <Hixie> yeah
  118. # [11:24] <Hixie> i'm not looking there until webapi decides what they're doing
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  120. # [11:24] <Hixie> or until the forms tf completes
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  122. # [11:25] <annevk> not really sure what to do there
  123. # [11:25] <annevk> Forms WG still seems fixed on the idea of bringing XForms to HTML
  124. # [11:26] <Hixie> well since that's not in the forms tf charter, that should be easy to deal with
  125. # [11:28] <annevk> the latest was http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms-tf/2008May/0003.html
  126. # [11:28] * Hixie goes to look at his ruby data
  127. # [11:28] <Hixie> yeah i saw
  128. # [11:33] <annevk> I note that nobody replied to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms-tf/2008Apr/0023.html
  129. # [11:35] <annevk> maybe it would be best to draft a new text document taking guidelines 1-7 from maciej and propose to adopt that
  130. # [11:35] <othermaciej> I might have time this weekend
  131. # [11:36] <annevk> k
  132. # [11:36] <annevk> it probably doesn't have to be HTML per se, you could just do it like the charter document
  133. # [11:38] <Hixie> you mean you actually want to do the work the tf chartered itself to do?
  134. # [11:38] <Hixie> that's a radical idea
  135. # [11:38] <Hixie> it'll never catch on
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  138. # [11:40] <annevk> hmm, seems that my browser couldn't handle the sarcasm
  139. # [11:42] <annevk> Hixie, for your issues graph, it would be nicer if the horizontal line snapped to the nearest graph
  140. # [11:45] <Hixie> yeah
  141. # [11:46] <Hixie> so according to my data
  142. # [11:46] <Hixie> there are a lot of stray </rt> elements
  143. # [11:46] <Hixie> but not many stray </rp> elements
  144. # [11:47] <Hixie> despite there being roughly the same amount of both
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  147. # [11:48] <Hixie> as in, 2.3% vs 0.017%
  148. # [11:48] <Hixie> that's a very odd result
  149. # [11:49] <Hixie> hmm, </ruby> has about the same problem
  150. # [11:49] <Hixie> as </rt>
  151. # [11:49] <Hixie> i clearly need to do this again but get sample urls
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  156. # [12:44] <Hixie> oh that's hilarious
  157. # [12:44] <Hixie> http://blog.kansai.com/kasutera7966/132
  158. # [12:45] <Hixie> it has two occurances of <ruby> ... <rt> ... </ruby>, which is fine as far as that goes
  159. # [12:45] <Hixie> but then at the end of the main bit of text there are two orphan </rt> tags
  160. # [12:45] <Hixie> clearly some software somewhere was like "ok well i'm closing these damnit!"
  161. # [12:49] <annevk> that's some interesting markup right there :)
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  164. # [12:51] <Hixie> so uh
  165. # [12:51] <Hixie> how do you get IE to actually render hte ruby
  166. # [12:53] <annevk> <!doctype html> <ruby> test <rt> test </rbuy>
  167. # [12:53] <annevk> wfm
  168. # [12:54] <annevk> though you probably want </ruby> there :)
  169. # [12:55] * annevk uses IE6
  170. # [12:56] <annevk> I don't think IE does "advanced" ruby
  171. # [12:56] <annevk> the rbc and rtc elements
  172. # [12:57] <annevk> s/advanced/complex/
  173. # [12:57] <Hixie> http://jyosui.blogzine.jp/blog/cat7074652/index.html
  174. # [12:57] <Hixie> ^ are you sure you want us to support ruby?
  175. # [12:58] <Hixie> woah
  176. # [12:58] <Hixie> it only works in quirks mode for me
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  178. # [13:00] <Hixie> <ruby><rb>ハクナ・マタタ</rb><rt>くよくよするな</rp></ruby>
  179. # [13:01] <Hixie> good work matching tags there http://d.hatena.ne.jp/keyword/%A5%E9%A5%A4%A5%AA%A5%F3%A1%A6%A5%AD%A5%F3%A5%B0
  180. # [13:01] <annevk> afaict IE ignores <rp> and <rb>
  181. # [13:02] <Hixie> yes
  182. # [13:02] <annevk> and <rt> only functions if it has a non-whitespace previous sibling
  183. # [13:03] <Hixie> ok so here is what i propose:
  184. # [13:03] <Hixie> <ruby> and </ruby> act like any random phrasing element tags
  185. # [13:04] <Hixie> <rp> and <rt> pop elements up to the nearest in-scope <ruby>, if any
  186. # [13:04] <Hixie> </rp> and </rt> act like normal phrasing element end tags
  187. # [13:04] <Hixie> <ruby> represents a run of one or more ruby annotations
  188. # [13:05] <Hixie> each annotation consists of some phrasing content followed by an <rt> element or a run of <rp>-<rt>-<rp> elements
  189. # [13:05] <Hixie> <rp> elements get ignored altogether
  190. # [13:06] <Hixie> the renderer takes all content of the <ruby> element and splits it into groups of not-rt, rt
  191. # [13:06] <Hixie> for each of those groups it renders the not-rt as the base and the rt as the ruby text
  192. # [13:07] * Hixie notes this in the spec for tomorrow
  193. # [13:07] <annevk> </ruby> should close <rp> / <rt>
  194. # [13:08] <Hixie> it would, if treated as i described above
  195. # [13:08] <annevk> without error?
  196. # [13:08] <Hixie> oh you don't want it to be an error?
  197. # [13:08] <Hixie> sure, we can add that
  198. # [13:08] <annevk> cool
  199. # [13:08] * annevk likes lazy markup
  200. # [13:10] <myakura> http://tinyurl.com/6b7s4w (babelfish'd from ja to en) mentions that ie8's ruby support.. wonder how that'll be done..
  201. # [13:12] <Hixie> http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.exconn.net%2FBlogs%2Fwindows%2Farchive%2F2008%2F03%2F09%2F23648.aspx&hl=en&ie=UTF8&sl=ja&sl=es&tl=en&tl=en
  202. # [13:12] <Hixie> mildly better
  203. # [13:13] <annevk> the Google version spells Ruby wrong (Rubi)
  204. # [13:14] <Hixie> i noticed that :-)
  205. # [13:14] <Hixie> you can suggest a better translation :-)
  206. # [13:14] <Hixie> hover over it
  207. # [13:18] <Hixie> placeholder: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-ruby
  208. # [13:18] <Hixie> i'll fill in the details tomorrow
  209. # [13:19] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i don't envy you your job
  210. # [13:20] <MikeSmith> heh
  211. # [13:20] <MikeSmith> you referring to my survey mail, I guess
  212. # [13:21] <Hixie> yeah
  213. # [13:22] <Hixie> if you do have people leave the group because of the quorum thing, please let me know so i can invite them to send feedback through the whatwg -- i imagine there might well be people who want to send feedback but don't care about the voting nonsense
  214. # [13:22] <Hixie> (me, for instance)
  215. # [13:23] <MikeSmith> I think at least a couple of those people who have not responded are not actually interested in the HTML work
  216. # [13:23] <MikeSmith> or maybe just interested in the parts of it that relate to forms
  217. # [13:24] <MikeSmith> I'd wonder whether they would have plans to ever send feedback and have a discussion about that even
  218. # [13:26] <MikeSmith> but yeah, if they do decide to leave, I will let you know, and will myself point out to them that the whatwg list is a great place for them to submit any feedback they might have
  219. # [13:26] <annevk> hmm, <rt> closes <rp>, but <rp> does not close <rt>
  220. # [13:27] <annevk> </ruby> closes <rt><rp>
  221. # [13:27] <Hixie> annevk: yeah, IE's handling is seriously borked
  222. # [13:28] <Hixie> MikeSmith: cool
  223. # [13:28] <Hixie> what's our current quorum level?
  224. # [13:28] <MikeSmith> we are short one response
  225. # [13:29] <Hixie> ah
  226. # [13:29] <MikeSmith> ChrisW told me on Friday that he would respond by the deadline, but he didn't (he's traveling and I would guess he may have been without connectivity)
  227. # [13:29] <Hixie> wow, no negative votes at all
  228. # [13:29] <Hixie> impressive
  229. # [13:29] <Hixie> ok
  230. # [13:29] <Hixie> bed time
  231. # [13:29] <Hixie> nn
  232. # [13:29] <MikeSmith> 'night
  233. # [13:31] <MikeSmith> hmm, is there not any kind of svn webview interface for whatwg svn? or some way that I can get a URL for a particular revision of the spec?
  234. # [13:31] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@adsl-70-137-131-51.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net)
  235. # [13:31] <MikeSmith> I know about http://svn.whatwg.org/webapps/ but as far as I can see, it only shows the latest rev
  236. # [13:33] <annevk> MikeSmith, http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker ?
  237. # [13:34] <annevk> oh, I see
  238. # [13:34] <annevk> no
  239. # [13:34] <MikeSmith> ah, OK
  240. # [13:34] <annevk> should be quite trivial to make that though
  241. # [13:35] <MikeSmith> yeah, I would think so, since the web-apps-tracker needs to be able to get arbitrary revisions anyway
  242. # [13:59] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: All it does, IIRC, is run svn diff
  243. # [14:00] * annevk reads http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/05/21-minutes.html ...
  244. # [14:01] <annevk> "TBL: I don't resent +xml, but I think text/html should migrate smoothly to XML over time."
  245. # [14:04] <Philip`> MikeSmith: "we are short one response" - I (or, rather, Dashiva's script) count 12 Member responses, which is exactly how many are needed
  246. # [14:05] <Dashiva> There could be a bug :)
  247. # [14:05] <Philip`> (Oxford Brookes University, Apple, Inc., Mozilla Foundation, Opera Software, Mitsue-Links Co., Ltd., Google, Inc., Nokia Corporation, AOL LLC, International Webmasters Association / HTML Writers Guild, W3C/MIT, Boeing Company, University of Innsbruck)
  248. # [14:06] <Philip`> It's definitely cutting it quite fine, though
  249. # [14:07] <MikeSmith> I clearly can't count :)
  250. # [14:08] <Philip`> That's understandable, since you don't have 12 fingers ;-)
  251. # [14:09] <annevk> Maybe MikeSmith counted W3C * 3?
  252. # [14:10] <MikeSmith> I think I just miscounted
  253. # [14:11] <annevk> the only thing is that html5-diff needs to be updated presumably because of sandboxing and ruby
  254. # [14:24] * Quits: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@dhcp-0000036913-b5-5e.client.fas.harvard.edu) (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
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  269. # [15:57] <takkaria> mhm, those TAG minutes are interesting
  270. # [15:57] <takkaria> "the reason we're not seeing a strong example of the need for distributed extensibility is that the lack of namespace-based extensibility in HTML bounded the discussion"
  271. # [16:36] <gsnedders> Philip`: Why not just wrap anything < 0 or > 10 the max. bounds?
  272. # [16:36] <Lachy> I need to work out what questions to ask the audience in the presentation. This is what I have so far...
  273. # [16:36] <Lachy> Who has never heard of HTML 5 before?
  274. # [16:36] <Lachy> Who has, but doesn’t know much about it?
  275. # [16:36] <Lachy> Who thinks they know more about it than we do?
  276. # [16:36] <gsnedders> Who thinks HTML 5 is stupid because XHTML is the future?
  277. # [16:37] <Lachy> heh
  278. # [16:37] <Philip`> Who thinks alt should be mandatory?
  279. # [16:37] <Lachy> I don't want to start a flame war in the middle of a presentation
  280. # [16:38] <Philip`> :-(
  281. # [16:38] <Philip`> (Why are you asking the audience questions at all?)
  282. # [16:38] <MikeSmith> "Who among you would like to challenge us to a fist fight after this presentation?"
  283. # [16:39] <Lachy> Philip`, as a way to get the audience more involved and interested
  284. # [16:39] <Lachy> if you have better suggestions, let me know
  285. # [16:39] <MikeSmith> "Who among you is without sin and would like to cast the first stone?"
  286. # [16:39] * Philip` has no useful experience at giving presentations, so he has no suggestions
  287. # [16:40] <Lachy> MikeSmith, what relevance does that have to HTML5?
  288. # [16:41] <MikeSmith> Lachy: I'm brainstorming here
  289. # [16:42] <MikeSmith> ""Who among you would possibly have some red-haired ses or similar that you would like to share with us in appreciation for the fact that we have taken the time to come here and educate you about HTML5?"
  290. # [16:42] <Lachy> ses?
  291. # [16:42] <Lachy> did you mean sis, as in sister?
  292. # [16:43] <MikeSmith> Lachy: nope, ses
  293. # [16:43] <Lachy> then what is it?
  294. # [16:43] <MikeSmith> teh red-haired variety
  295. # [16:43] <Lachy> ?
  296. # [16:44] <MikeSmith> Lachy: I dunno. something I heard about on the Internet somewhere
  297. # [16:44] <Philip`> "an ancient Chinese plucked zither"?
  298. # [16:45] <Philip`> Google finds "red-haired ses" once on the internet, at www.marijuanapassion.com...
  299. # [16:49] <MikeSmith> Lachy: I recommend mocking other people/groups in your presentation, as much as possible
  300. # [16:50] <gsnedders> Lachy: Especially that gsnedders guy.
  301. # [16:51] * Philip` recommends not doing so, because it'll just make the audience think you're arrogant and/or wrong :-p
  302. # [16:52] <Philip`> (unless you're just confirming their pre-existing prejudices, in which case it's alright)
  303. # [16:53] <Lachy> gsnedders, I'll use that funny looking photo of you in the presentation when we're talking about the community
  304. # [16:53] <gsnedders> Lachy: jgraham's photo?
  305. # [16:53] <gsnedders> Lachy: Or what?
  306. # [16:54] <Lachy> gsnedders, yeah, that one will do
  307. # [16:54] <Lachy> http://flickr.com/photos/jgraham/2479527700/
  308. # [16:54] <gsnedders> I was meaning http://flickr.com/photos/jgraham/2479527704/
  309. # [16:54] <gsnedders> seeming that's also me
  310. # [16:55] <Lachy> no, people can't see your funny hair style in that one. The aim is to get people to laugh
  311. # [16:55] <Lachy> :-P
  312. # [16:55] <gsnedders> Lachy: If you want my hair, there are better photos :P
  313. # [16:56] <Dashiva> Oh, oh!
  314. # [16:56] <gsnedders> Lachy: http://flickr.com/photos/gsnedders/2396366112/?
  315. # [16:56] <Dashiva> You can have a "Hi, I'm a HTML5 document. And I'm a XHTML2 document" thing!
  316. # [16:56] <gsnedders> Lachy: Just look through photos tagged with gsnedders
  317. # [16:58] <MikeSmith> gsnedders sporting the anglo-fro
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  319. # [17:01] <gsnedders> I still think I look really stupid in http://flickr.com/photos/gsnedders/614426881/
  320. # [17:03] <Lachy> gsnedders, here's the incomplete slide http://lachy.id.au/temp/gsnedders.jpg
  321. # [17:04] <gsnedders> hah!
  322. # [17:04] <Lachy> anyone else want their photo included?
  323. # [17:05] <gsnedders> I was more being silly, but hey, I'm there now :P
  324. # [17:05] <Lachy> gsnedders, I know. But the more photos we get to make this presentation interesting, the less we have to say make it interesting
  325. # [17:06] <MikeSmith> Lachy: feel free to include this:
  326. # [17:06] <MikeSmith> http://flickr.com/photos/sideshowbarker/2067348343/
  327. # [17:06] * Joins: csarven (n=csarven@modemcable130.251-202-24.mc.videotron.ca)
  328. # [17:06] <Lachy> who is that?
  329. # [17:06] <gsnedders> Lachy: I still think http://flickr.com/photos/jgraham/2479527704/ is a better photo of me
  330. # [17:07] <Lachy> gsnedders, no, photos from before your ascension are better :-)
  331. # [17:08] <Dashiva> Lachy: It's probably mike!
  332. # [17:10] <gsnedders> I should probably get me own photos from Cambridge online
  333. # [17:12] <MikeSmith> Lachy: I'm told that picture is of the W3C Special Missions Subsection Junior Co-Chief
  334. # [17:16] <Lachy> MikeSmith, does that mean it is or isn't you?
  335. # [17:17] * Quits: deane (n=dean@121.98.128.155) (Remote closed the connection)
  336. # [17:17] <MikeSmith> here's picture of me wearing Antal Lakner's "Passive-Dress Double-Gravity Suit System"
  337. # [17:17] <MikeSmith> http://flickr.com/photos/sideshowbarker/88963458/
  338. # [17:17] <MikeSmith> that suit weighs 40kg
  339. # [17:17] <MikeSmith> "A new development from INERS, the Passive Dress puts to the test one of the human body's fundamental functions - holding itself in position against the gravitational force of the planet where we live."
  340. # [17:17] <MikeSmith> Lachy: I am that I am.
  341. # [17:18] <MikeSmith> אהיה אשר אהיה
  342. # [17:18] <MikeSmith> ehyeh asher ehyeh
  343. # [17:19] <Lachy> MikeSmith, have you started typing in tongues?
  344. # [17:21] <MikeSmith> Yes, I've filled with Holy Ghost electricity matrix astrochemistry
  345. # [17:23] * Lachy finds http://people.w3.org/mike/
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  348. # [17:28] * Lachy concludes that the photo of the drunk mobile phone user is Mike
  349. # [17:28] <Lachy> MikeSmith, do you have a high res version of this photo without the purple hat that's in the flickr version? http://sideshowbarker.net/about/
  350. # [17:30] <MikeSmith> Lachy: http://flickr.com/photos/sideshowbarker/1582027053/sizes/o/
  351. # [17:30] <MikeSmith> that's the highest res I got
  352. # [17:31] <Lachy> that'll do
  353. # [17:32] <Lachy> btw, what does "keitai" mean?
  354. # [17:32] <Dashiva> cell phone
  355. # [17:38] <MikeSmith> Lachy: what Dashiva said
  356. # [17:38] <MikeSmith> actually it literally means "mobile"
  357. # [17:39] <Lachy> MikeSmith, yeah, I translated "cell phone" to "mobile" anyway ;-)
  358. # [17:43] <Dashiva> And I translated from mobile to cell phone
  359. # [17:44] <Dashiva> MikeSmith: Does anyone say the full keitai denwa anymore?
  360. # [17:46] <Dashiva> Or more practically, is 'keitai' in any other use that would require disambiguation?
  361. # [17:47] <MikeSmith> Dashiva: yeah, keitai is still used some other ways
  362. # [17:47] <Lachy> Dashiva, are you an American?
  363. # [17:47] <MikeSmith> and do still here "keitai denwa" sometimes
  364. # [17:47] <MikeSmith> and especically, still see it written a lot
  365. # [17:48] <MikeSmith> e.g., in signs on trains and such that say, "Don't talk on your keitai denwa on the train."
  366. # [17:48] <Dashiva> Lachy: No
  367. # [17:49] <Dashiva> Lachy: My personal experience is that people who use 'mobile' understand 'cell', but the opposite is not always true. So just to be safe :)
  368. # [17:51] <MikeSmith> using the phrase "cell phone" is a good way to demonstrate lack of clue
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  370. # [18:07] <MikeSmith> technical people at mobile operators/carriers use the word "terminal" to refer to keitai
  371. # [18:07] <MikeSmith> because to them, that's all it is (a data terminal)
  372. # [18:19] <Philip`> Do they use the term "non-terminal" for anything specific?
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  378. # [21:01] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I think long comments are bad for perf in general. If people still want very long comments, surely they can put them after the charset meta?
  379. # [21:03] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: so far it seems that 512 is a practical magic value. if implementations will have a cut-off, I think we are better off if the cut-off is predictable i.e. written down
  380. # [21:04] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I'm less fond of the first child of head req.
  381. # [21:17] <Lachy> hsivonen, what's wrong with the first child of head requirment?
  382. # [21:18] <hsivonen> Lachy: as long as the prescan catches the meta, non-first child is harmless
  383. # [21:18] <hsivonen> so the byte location is what really matters
  384. # [21:19] <Lachy> but isn't it easier to get people to put meta as the first child of head, than to get them to count bytes?
  385. # [21:19] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: is "sing-song" Norwegian the same kind of "singing" as in Swedish spoken in Sweden?
  386. # [21:19] <hsivonen> Lachy: yes
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  388. # [22:05] * hsivonen reads TAG minutes on Oauth and OpenID
  389. # [22:14] <hsivonen> Lachy: what's the keynote theme that you are using?
  390. # [22:20] <Lachy> hsivonen, it's called Industrial
  391. # [22:23] <hsivonen> Lachy: thanks. I didn't realize it was one of the built-in ones
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  403. # Session Close: Mon May 26 00:00:00 2008

The end :)