/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-05-26 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon May 26 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:14] * Quits: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.126.83) ("Leaving.")
  4. # [00:30] <Hixie> Dashiva: nah, the audience wouldn't be able to hold their suspension of disbelief if you implied that there was an actual xhtml2 document somewhere
  5. # [00:31] <Dashiva> Surely they've made one or two for examples
  6. # [00:31] <Lachy> wow, it appears the last time the XHTML2 WG actually publised a draft of XHTML2 was back in 2006.
  7. # [00:34] <webben> Lachy: that's of the main document, I believe.
  8. # [00:35] <Lachy> webben, yeah, I'm aware they've been working on other drafts, but still, for a draft that's clearly inadequate, you'd think they'd spend a bit more time on it
  9. # [00:36] <webben> it's possible they do; but haven't published anything, I guess.
  10. # [00:37] <webben> it's also possible that there are bigger inadequacies in the modules that they're concentrating on
  11. # [00:37] <annevk> hmm, sickings comments are not really helping
  12. # [00:38] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@124-168-33-67.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("bye")
  13. # [00:41] <Hixie> so i'm amused that two days after the TAG discussed issue 41, i closed it
  14. # [00:43] <annevk> weinig, othermaciej, do you guys have similar concerns to Mozilla with respect to Access Control or does it seem fine from a security perspective?
  15. # [00:43] <Lachy> if anyone wants to take a look at the current (incomplete) progress of my presentation slides, they're up here. http://lachy.id.au/temp/html5.zip (uses Keynote format)
  16. # [00:43] <Lachy> feedback appreciated
  17. # [00:44] <annevk> can you export to HTML or something?
  18. # [00:44] <Lachy> I can do PDF
  19. # [00:44] <annevk> i guess that works
  20. # [00:44] <Hixie> pdf would be nice
  21. # [00:44] <Hixie> i even have keynote and pdf would be nice :-)
  22. # [00:44] <Lachy> but you miss out on the cool animations with PDF :-)
  23. # [00:45] <annevk> somehow that doesn't strike me as a negative
  24. # [00:45] <Hixie> the animations are presumably not part of the substance :-)
  25. # [00:45] <Lachy> it's just slide transitions, so no biggy
  26. # [00:49] <Lachy> uploading html5.pdf now, will be done in about 3 minutes
  27. # [00:49] <Lachy> brb
  28. # [00:50] <annevk> Hixie, btw, can the <ruby> stuff easily be extended to cover complex ruby going forward?
  29. # [00:50] <annevk> Hixie, I heard rumors about at least Microsoft wanting to implement that
  30. # [00:51] <Hixie> well it wouldn't fall back well but sure
  31. # [00:51] <Hixie> we could add an attribute to <rt>
  32. # [00:52] <Lachy> done. http://lachy.id.au/temp/html5.pdf
  33. # [00:52] <annevk> btw, <q> and <rt> + <rp> are slightly inconsistent
  34. # [00:52] <Hixie> <ruby>a<rt>A</rt>b<rt>B</rt>c<rt>C</rt><rt span=3>123</ruby>
  35. # [00:52] <annevk> (not that it matters much)
  36. # [00:53] <Hixie> i'd have to see what the use cases really were first though
  37. # [00:55] <Dashiva> Like compound words where the pronounciation of two symbols is not the sum of the parts?
  38. # [00:58] <annevk> I wonder why IE doesn't do <rb>
  39. # [01:01] <annevk> Hixie, fair enough
  40. # [01:01] <Hixie> it doesn't do <rb> because <rb> is dumb
  41. # [01:01] <Hixie> same reason the html5 spec won't do <rb>
  42. # [01:02] <annevk> isn't that like saying that <dt> is dumb?
  43. # [01:02] <Lachy> I'm off to bed. If you've got any comments about the presentation slides, leave them in here and I'll read them in the morning. Good night.
  44. # [01:02] <Hixie> yes
  45. # [01:02] <Hixie> though at least in the case of <dt> it could separate multiple terms
  46. # [01:02] <annevk> oh true, <dt> actually has a use case
  47. # [01:03] <annevk> this is true for <rb> in case of complex ruby as well it seems
  48. # [01:03] <Hixie> not really, as shown in the idea above
  49. # [01:03] <annevk> so you can have several things in content order
  50. # [01:03] <annevk> in your example above they wouldn't be in content order, so less optimal fallback
  51. # [01:03] <Hixie> the way they do it in xhtml ruby falls back poorly
  52. # [01:04] <Hixie> eh?
  53. # [01:04] <Hixie> they'd be _more_ in content order
  54. # [01:05] <annevk> meh, you're right
  55. # [01:05] <annevk> geez, that's a huge pdf
  56. # [01:07] <annevk> heh, I like the slide that says "Solve Real Problems" and has a rubix cube on it
  57. # [01:07] <annevk> rubik's, apparently
  58. # [01:08] <annevk> oh, "secure by design" and the Chinese wall is a funny too
  59. # [01:10] <Hixie> Lachy: what font is that?
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  61. # [01:11] <othermaciej> annevk: we're not sure yet about all the security details (have not read the moz comments for instance)
  62. # [01:11] <annevk> othermaciej, k
  63. # [01:12] <othermaciej> we'll try to comment soon
  64. # [01:12] <othermaciej> now that we have an implementation and all
  65. # [01:12] <annevk> i'm fine with you guys just implementing the spec :)
  66. # [01:13] * annevk wonders if RB and DT have been introduced to each other already
  67. # [01:13] * annevk thinks they'd be a perfect match
  68. # [01:14] <Dashiva> <dt>a</dt><rt>A</rt> ?
  69. # [01:14] <annevk> Dashiva, RB and DT are not elements, but people :)
  70. # [01:15] <Hixie> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/ie8.html?...%3Cruby%3E%3Col%3E%3Cli%3E%3Cp%3Eaaa%3Crt%3Ebbb%3Cli%3Eccc%3C%2Fruby%3E...
  71. # [01:16] <Dashiva> Oh, those ones
  72. # [01:16] <Hixie> i have no idea what to do with that markup
  73. # [01:16] <Hixie> i can't see any way to get the IE rendering and the IE DOM at the same time
  74. # [01:16] <Hixie> or any thing resembling either
  75. # [01:17] <annevk> Dashiva, see html4all
  76. # [01:18] <Dashiva> Did dmitry start posting there?
  77. # [01:18] <annevk> Dashiva, no RB is proposing Unicode extensions
  78. # [01:19] <Hixie> annevk: any ideas for that ruby problem?
  79. # [01:19] <Dashiva> Hixie: Isn't it just the <rt> blissfully ignoring other tags?
  80. # [01:19] <Hixie> how do you mean?
  81. # [01:20] <annevk> Hixie, maybe <rt> should only do something special in case <ruby> is parent
  82. # [01:20] <Dashiva> Wait, what does a red LI mean?
  83. # [01:20] <annevk> Hixie, for both parsing and styling
  84. # [01:20] <Hixie> red LI means that the LI had two parents
  85. # [01:20] <Hixie> but that's another problem
  86. # [01:20] <Hixie> i'm just talking about the rendering
  87. # [01:20] <annevk> Hixie, in that case it would remain compatible with other browsers, at least
  88. # [01:20] <Hixie> annevk: the other browsers do nothing with ruby
  89. # [01:21] <Dashiva> Hixie: The rendering looks to me like 1. aaa (sup bbb) \n 2. (sup ccc) ...
  90. # [01:21] <annevk> Hixie, exactly, and since <rt> is not a child of <ruby> that would not change here
  91. # [01:21] <Dashiva> So apart from making the list counter rubytext, isn't it just an open <rt> going through?
  92. # [01:21] <Hixie> annevk: people using ruby are mostly worrying about IE, i'd wager.
  93. # [01:21] <Hixie> annevk: so compatibility with IE is what matters
  94. # [01:22] <Hixie> Dashiva: my point is how do we decide what to make the rt ruby-annotate?
  95. # [01:22] <Dashiva> Hixie: the bs or the cs?
  96. # [01:23] <Hixie> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/ie8.html?...%3Cruby%3E%20aa%20%3Col%3E%3Cli%3E%20bb%20%3Cem%3E%20cc%20%3Crt%3E%20ddddd%20%3C%2Frt%3E%20ee%20%3C%2Fem%3E%20ff
  97. # [01:23] <webben> Hixie: Would probably be worth confirming that. (I'd tend to assume the same thing, but there is that Firefox extension for Ruby as well.)
  98. # [01:23] <othermaciej> Hixie: the IE rendering is probably more important than the IE DOM, for Ruby
  99. # [01:23] <Hixie> othermaciej: greed
  100. # [01:24] <Hixie> a
  101. # [01:25] <webben> Hixie: Have you pulled up any Ruby in the Google caches? Do we know what current use is depending on?
  102. # [01:25] <Hixie> most ruby seems simple
  103. # [01:26] <Hixie> maybe we can get away with not being compatible with IE here
  104. # [01:26] <Hixie> and just being compatible with most of hte markup
  105. # [01:26] <annevk> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/ie8.html?...%3Cruby%3E%20x%20%3Crt%3E%20z%20%3Cdiv%3E%20y%20%3C%2Fdiv%3E%20%3C%2Frt%3E%20%3C%2Fruby%3E%20...
  106. # [01:26] <annevk> it seems like a CSS matter
  107. # [01:27] <annevk> that is, having block level elements inside <rt> will do funny stuff
  108. # [01:27] <Hixie> ok well we'll go for something simple and see what problems we get
  109. # [01:31] <Dashiva> Lachy: Pave the cowpaths should be more explicit about only paving GOOD cowpaths
  110. # [01:34] <Dashiva> Lachy: Existing content should mention that it means actual useful content, not just standards
  111. # [01:35] <Dashiva> Lachy: Priority doesn't say the list is actually in order
  112. # [01:36] <Hixie> wow, i can do the entire ruby parsing rules with one new entry in the in-body mode, and two new entires in the "generate implied end tags" list.
  113. # [01:36] <Hixie> and that's it.
  114. # [01:37] <Hixie> that was easier than i expected
  115. # [01:38] <Dashiva> Awesome
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  118. # [02:10] <Hixie> not surprising microsoft think html5 should be split into smaller specs
  119. # [02:10] <Hixie> have you tried opening html5 in IE recnetly?
  120. # [02:10] <Hixie> sheesh
  121. # [02:11] <othermaciej> heh
  122. # [02:25] <Philip`> Which IE?
  123. # [02:26] <Philip`> IE8 seems particularly bad on the spec - it freezes for around ten seconds when moving the mouse over a link
  124. # [02:27] <Hixie> IE8b1, yes
  125. # [02:28] <Philip`> You shouldn't expect beta software to actually work
  126. # [02:28] <Philip`> Actually, you shouldn't expect any software to work
  127. # [02:29] <Philip`> It's good to get that warm feeling of pleasant surprise when you find some that really does work
  128. # [02:32] <roc> IE8b1 is particularly bad (apparently)
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  132. # [02:44] <Hixie> annevk: ok, check out the spec, is it ok?
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  134. # [02:48] <Dashiva> Lachy: Well-defined behavior and handle errors should probably be adjacent, so you can point out that both "correct" and "incorrect" documents are consistent
  135. # [02:50] <Dashiva> Lachy: Media independence sounds kinda like starting with a desktop and "adding support" for other things. But that could be just me.
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  140. # [03:24] <Hixie> areas i could focus on next if no-one has any specific requests: abbr, alt, links, focus, usemap, sections
  141. # [03:25] <othermaciej> I am tempted to request alt just to watch the fireworks
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  144. # [03:30] <Dashiva> Hixie: Let's leave alt for the end, it's going to take up 90% of LC anyhow :)
  145. # [03:31] <Dashiva> Is links <a> or <link>?
  146. # [03:36] <MikeSmith> Hixie: how about URLs?
  147. # [03:36] <MikeSmith> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#urls
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  157. # [06:26] <Lachy> Hixie, the font is Helvetica Neue Light
  158. # [06:28] <MikeSmith> Lachy: what day is your presentation?
  159. # [06:28] <Lachy> Thursday morning at 11:00
  160. # [06:28] <MikeSmith> can you plan to Skype it out?
  161. # [06:29] <Lachy> maybe
  162. # [06:29] <Lachy> it will be podcast afterwards though
  163. # [06:30] <MikeSmith> ah
  164. # [06:30] <MikeSmith> OK
  165. # [06:31] <MikeSmith> Lachy: so what do you plan to say if you get the "how long with it be before there's a final rec for HTML5" question?
  166. # [06:33] <Lachy> I plan to focus on how authors can use features as soon as they are implemented and shipped in browsers
  167. # [06:34] <MikeSmith> Lachy: also always worth pointing out that the record of implementation progress on parts of the spec is exceptional
  168. # [06:34] <MikeSmith> that is, it's getting implemented at a much more rapid pace than just about any other spec-in-progress that anybody'd want to compare it with
  169. # [06:35] <Lachy> good point
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  171. # [06:36] <MikeSmith> Lachy: I think it's possible that you may have some reporters or other media people approach you there and ask you about the schedule and other things
  172. # [06:36] <MikeSmith> e.g., splitting up the spec
  173. # [06:37] <MikeSmith> many reporters already have in mind pretty much what they want to write about and will try to steer you into saying something that supports whatever message that is
  174. # [06:37] <MikeSmith> so it pays to be a bit careful what you say to them
  175. # [06:38] <MikeSmith> e.g., before responding to some question that they ask, ask them what *they* think
  176. # [06:41] <MikeSmith> put them on the defensive instead of letting them put you on the defensive
  177. # [06:41] <Lachy> ok
  178. # [06:42] * MikeSmith gets a Reboot invitation in his inbox
  179. # [06:43] <MikeSmith> Lachy: maybe you or annevk or somebody in Europe can consider proposing an HTML5 talk for Reboot
  180. # [06:43] <MikeSmith> annevk did one last year
  181. # [06:43] <Lachy> when is Reboot?
  182. # [06:43] <MikeSmith> event in Copenhagen each year
  183. # [06:44] <MikeSmith> http://www.reboot.dk/index.php
  184. # [06:44] <MikeSmith> 26-27 June
  185. # [06:45] <MikeSmith> un-conference
  186. # [06:46] <Lachy> maybe. It depends if Opera will be willing to send me to that one as well
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  188. # [06:54] <Lachy> MikeSmith, what's the purpose of this http://dev.w3.org/html5/pubnotes/ ? Is that a summary of the spec changes since the last WD?
  189. # [06:55] <MikeSmith> Lachy: yes
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  191. # [06:56] <MikeSmith> Lachy: also, I intend http://dev.w3.org/html5/pubnotes/ to also be a record that we maintain going forward
  192. # [06:56] <MikeSmith> so each time a change is made to the spec, we also update that
  193. # [06:57] <MikeSmith> with separate sections for each WD
  194. # [06:57] <MikeSmith> that is, after we publish the next WD this week or next, the stuff that is there for the FPWD will become a static/historical section
  195. # [06:58] <MikeSmith> and we start a new section, which becomes a static section after we publish the next-next WD (3 months or so from now)
  196. # [06:59] <Lachy> so the one document will contain all the changes for all WDs, instead of starting a new document for each?
  197. # [07:03] <MikeSmith> Lachy: well, that's what I've been planning at least
  198. # [07:04] <MikeSmith> it seems better to me to have on running record
  199. # [07:04] <MikeSmith> because our WD dates are actually just arbitrary
  200. # [07:04] <Lachy> it might be easier if each on was on a separate page at least, since otherwise the one page will grow excessively large after just a few WDs
  201. # [07:05] <MikeSmith> well, that's also a complaint against the spec itself
  202. # [07:05] <MikeSmith> the pubnotes doc is still only 155K
  203. # [07:05] <Lachy> ok
  204. # [07:05] <MikeSmith> it has a long way to go before it approaches the 2.4MB size of the spec
  205. # [07:07] <Lachy> since the W3C gives each one a dated URI anyway, and each section will remain static, you could just link to all the previous versions and then replace the doc with the latest changes only
  206. # [07:13] <MikeSmith> Lachy: yeah, I suppose
  207. # [07:13] <MikeSmith> we'll see what we do after we get the next WD out
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  211. # [08:37] <MikeSmith> Philip`: about your offline-webapps message: seems to me like the serialization should just be referred to as "text/html", with "HTML 5" and "HTML5" both just meaning the abstract language
  212. # [08:38] <MikeSmith> any distinction that might try to be made between "HTML 5" and "HTML5" is not going to be intuitive to readers
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  217. # [09:14] <hsivonen> Lachy: slides 8 through 11 are PowerPointish--not Keynoteish
  218. # [09:15] <hsivonen> Lachy: I don't understand the photo for existing content
  219. # [09:15] <hsivonen> Lachy: I like the rubik's cube
  220. # [09:15] <hsivonen> DOM tree, too
  221. # [09:16] <hsivonen> Lachy: I don't understand slide 34 without speech
  222. # [09:17] <hsivonen> Lachy: slide 33 needs a warning against deploying content features before any browser implements that particular feature
  223. # [09:17] <hsivonen> the photo of the rosetta stone has low res
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  230. # [10:26] <Lachy> hsivonen, the photo for Support Existing Content is of a bridge support. If you have a better idea, let me know
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  232. # [10:28] <hsivonen> Lachy: I don't have a better idea.
  233. # [10:29] <hsivonen> Lachy: the photo made me think it was illustrating bridging instead of the support wires
  234. # [10:30] <othermaciej> so you guys have pictures for the HTML Design Principles?
  235. # [10:30] <othermaciej> is there gonna be a presentation about them?
  236. # [10:31] <Lachy> othermaciej, jgraham and I are presenting the desing principles as part of our presentation at @media
  237. # [10:32] <othermaciej> neat
  238. # [10:32] <othermaciej> I remember when we wrote down the first wiki version of that document, based on an IRC conversation
  239. # [10:32] <Lachy> you can download the current incomplete slides here http://lachy.id.au/temp/
  240. # [10:32] <othermaciej> now even people who hated them originally cite them as canon
  241. # [10:32] <Lachy> Either in keynote format (html5.zip) or PDF
  242. # [10:33] <othermaciej> sure, I am interested to see
  243. # [10:33] <Lachy> hsivonen, do you have any ideas of how to make slides 8-11 less like powerpoint?
  244. # [10:35] <othermaciej> slide 9 has incorrect parallel construction
  245. # [10:35] <hsivonen> Lachy: by turning each bullet point into a slide with one or two keywords from the bullet point on the slide using the "Title - Centered" slide master
  246. # [10:35] <othermaciej> Document/Standardise/Develop vs. Defining
  247. # [10:36] <othermaciej> hah, the pictures are great
  248. # [10:38] <hsivonen> Handle Errors is especially great
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  250. # [10:42] <hsivonen> Lachy: your slides are missing CC attribution and license legalese
  251. # [10:42] <hsivonen> for the photos that is
  252. # [10:42] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM119-72-23-157.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Client Quit)
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  255. # [10:46] <Lachy> hsivonen, I'll add the licence stuff at the end
  256. # [10:47] * hsivonen doesn't like it that RNG list {} cannot contain interleave
  257. # [10:53] * Joins: kfish (n=conrad@61.194.21.25)
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  260. # [11:04] <annevk> MikeSmith, yeah, I thought about going to reboot, it's pretty cool, but there doesn't seem to be much activity going on for this year yet...
  261. # [11:05] <hsivonen> let's see if I can still deploy a new instance of V.nu after all these massive parser changes...
  262. # [11:05] <annevk> Hixie, the ruby stuff is not checked in yet, fwiw, but it looks ok
  263. # [11:15] <annevk> Hixie, links / definition for URL would be cool
  264. # [11:15] <annevk> hsivonen,are you already up to date with the new stuff?
  265. # [11:18] <hsivonen> annevk: I am not
  266. # [11:23] <hsivonen> annevk: http://bugzilla.validator.nu/buglist.cgi?component=HTML+parser&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED
  267. # [11:25] <annevk> MikeSmith, ok, submitted a proposal: http://www.reboot.dk/artefact-4161-en.html
  268. # [11:26] <hsivonen> annevk: what's the length of a presentation at reboot?
  269. # [11:26] <annevk> 25 - 30 minutes I believe
  270. # [11:27] <hsivonen> oh great. the JDK did roughly what HTML5 requires now but I had to code around it to get the behavior that the spec used to require a while ago (for charset name matching)
  271. # [11:29] <hsivonen> "For instance, "GB_2312-80" and "g.b.2312(80)" are considered equivalent names. " that's just scary
  272. # [11:29] <annevk> and weird
  273. # [11:29] <hsivonen> I wonder if making scary
  274. # [11:29] <annevk> and annoying to test
  275. # [11:29] <hsivonen> argh
  276. # [11:29] <hsivonen> copy paste error
  277. # [11:30] <hsivonen> I wonder if making g.b.2312(80) an error would make sense
  278. # [11:33] <hsivonen> aargh. It looks like I regressed comment tokenization and the test cases didn't catch it
  279. # [11:50] <gsnedders> hsivonen: It's what WebKit does, and there is stuff that relies upon it, sadly :(
  280. # [11:51] <gsnedders> Oh typical. I'm in Cophenhagen a few days after reboot
  281. # [11:52] * Joins: aaronlev (n=chatzill@g228078050.adsl.alicedsl.de)
  282. # [11:53] <hsivonen> hmm. nice. I can't reproduce the comment problem with a minimized test case
  283. # [11:54] <hsivonen> so it looks like I have to run a debugger with the huge spec file
  284. # [13:55] * Disconnected
  285. # [13:55] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  286. # [13:55] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  287. # [13:55] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  288. # [13:55] * Set by gsnedders on Tue Dec 18 21:41:19
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  293. # [14:47] <annevk> hsivonen, textarea input for http://parsetree.validator.nu/ ?
  294. # [14:51] <hsivonen> annevk: I suppose I have to build a proper UI for it, yes :-(
  295. # [14:52] <annevk> hmm, no need for proper UI
  296. # [14:52] <annevk> copying http://james.html5.org/parsetree.html wfm
  297. # [14:52] <annevk> ideally it uses GET
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  299. # [15:00] <Lachy> anyone have an idea for a cool/funny blog name I can use for an example site in my presentation?
  300. # [15:00] <Lachy> Something more creative than "My Blog" would be nice
  301. # [15:01] <annevk> Cat Pictures for Everyone
  302. # [15:01] <Lachy> perfect!
  303. # [15:02] <Lachy> hmm. a Web 2.0 version of that would be better
  304. # [15:05] <annevk> C4t 3xch4ng3!
  305. # [15:07] <Lachy> what do you think of this? http://www.h-master.net/web2.0/image/(reflect)Cat%20LovrBETA.png
  306. # [15:07] <annevk> wfm, I won't be there :p
  307. # [15:08] * Joins: aaronlev (n=chatzill@g228078050.adsl.alicedsl.de)
  308. # [15:09] <Lachy> that will give me a perfect opportunity to put in some of those LOL cats with HTML on them
  309. # [15:11] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Renaming the "HTML5" syntax to "text/html" seems too ugly, particularly since we'd have to rename "XHTML5" to "application/xhtml+xml" too
  310. # [15:12] <MikeSmith> Philip`: I think "text/html" is as easy to pronounce as "HTML5"
  311. # [15:13] <Philip`> MikeSmith: But it's harder to type, which is more important than pronunciation
  312. # [15:14] <annevk> HTML, XHTML, and HTML5
  313. # [15:15] <annevk> since HTML and XHTML don't have versions, that should be ok
  314. # [15:15] <annevk> HTML5 can also be written as HTML 5 for backwards compatibility
  315. # [15:15] <Lachy> MikeSmith, when and where did you suggest calling it text/html? In a mail or somewhere in IRC?
  316. # [15:38] <MikeSmith> Lachy: here
  317. # [15:39] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  318. # [15:40] <Philip`> "07:34 < MikeSmith> Philip`: about your offline-webapps message: seems to me like the serialization should just be referred to as "text/html", with "HTML 5" and "HTML5" both just meaning the abstract language"
  319. # [15:43] <Dashiva> Lachy: Do the <i> one!
  320. # [15:44] <Lachy> Dashiva, specifically which one?
  321. # [15:44] <Dashiva> http://icanhascheezburger.com/2008/03/24/funny-pictures-i-i/
  322. # [15:47] <Lachy> why does photoshop have to be so damn compliated?!
  323. # [15:48] <Dashiva> Because if everyone can do it, it's no longer cool
  324. # [15:49] <Lachy> yeah, but it sucks cause I can't even figure out how to change the colour of a layer
  325. # [16:06] <Lachy> bugger photoshop, it's uselss. I'll use Fireworks instead, cause at least it lets me work with the image easily
  326. # [16:06] <Lachy> (or maybe it's just the user that's useless)
  327. # [16:12] <takkaria> it just has a steep learning curve
  328. # [16:13] <Lachy> takkaria, yeah, unfortunately, I don't have enough time to learn how to use it and produce some mockup websites by this afternoon, or tomorrow at the latest
  329. # [16:30] * Joins: csarven (i=csarven@on-irc.csarven.ca)
  330. # [16:47] <Philip`> http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/phoenix/images.php?fileID=6332 - "This image ... was taken between 2008-05-26T00:19:03.098 and 2008-05-26T00:19:03.274 local time" - I think that's the first time I've ever seen someone seriously use millisecond datetimes
  331. # [16:47] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  332. # [16:47] <Philip`> The phrase "local time" is unfortunately ambiguous when they're on Mars, though
  333. # [16:54] <annevk> heh
  334. # [17:10] <Lachy> I need a caption for that LOL cat image, for demonstrating figure/legend
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  336. # [17:20] <Lachy> Here's my sample blog design. Does it look ok? http://lachy.id.au/temp/blog.png
  337. # [17:21] <gsnedders> oh noes! it's da mow mow!
  338. # [17:21] <Dashiva> It's possible to read the text, you gottam ake it smaller :P
  339. # [17:21] <Lachy> I made the text bigger since it needs to be readable by the audience
  340. # [17:22] <Lachy> obviously, if it were a real site, I'd make the text 8pt Arial
  341. # [17:24] <Dashiva> Well, maybe put some text in the entry
  342. # [17:24] <Lachy> Dashiva, like what?
  343. # [17:24] <Lachy> Hixie, is it ok that I stole Astrophy from you?
  344. # [17:25] <Dashiva> Lachy: Dunno. I just figured it'd be more bloglike with some text :)
  345. # [17:26] <Lachy> I'm not that creative. But if you think of something appropriate, I'll add it
  346. # [17:29] <Dashiva> Make a pun on Kitten HTML and KHTML!
  347. # [17:31] <myakura> Fork it then call one WebKitten :)
  348. # [17:31] <myakura> well, don't fork :)
  349. # [17:31] <annevk> hehe
  350. # [17:33] <gsnedders> myakura: Spoon it?
  351. # [17:34] * Lachy adds credit to Hixie for the cat logo
  352. # [17:34] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-98-207-134-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  353. # [17:34] <myakura> gsnedders: http://www.doknowevil.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/omg_spoon_cat.jpg
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  358. # [18:13] <annevk> Lachy, if you need people to laugh: http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/8726/jobsco0.gif
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  362. # [19:24] <Lachy> LOL. It's funny how RB talks about the problems caused by moving an attribute in the null namespace from one element to another, then admits in the following paragraph that the problem doesn't exist. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008May/0613.html
  363. # [19:25] * Quits: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  364. # [19:27] * Lachy resists the temptation to respond, since it's unlikely to achieve anything
  365. # [19:28] <Dashiva> I'm just wondering what he wants to accomplish
  366. # [19:28] <Dashiva> Surely he realizes that it's years too late to change it
  367. # [19:28] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@L8f30.l.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  368. # [19:29] <Lachy> I'm not sure. But the problems he's describing aren't real problems, and even if they were, his proposal suffers from additional problems beyond the back compat issues
  369. # [19:36] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-71-204-153-3.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  370. # [19:47] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-3c7b9d4f29988313)
  371. # [19:47] <gsnedders> Lachy: Can I see the full slide that I'm in, yet?
  372. # [19:47] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-3c7b9d4f29988313) (Remote closed the connection)
  373. # [19:50] <Dashiva> gsnedders: Worried? :)
  374. # [19:51] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-3fb3ca67e6dc456c)
  375. # [19:58] <Lachy> gsnedders, not yet. that section isn't finished yet
  376. # [19:59] * Joins: starjive (i=beos@213-66-217-32-no30.tbcn.telia.com)
  377. # [20:22] <annevk> Dashiva, RB believes Namespaces for XML, namespaces in the DOM, etc. can still be changed
  378. # [20:23] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-3fb3ca67e6dc456c)
  379. # [20:56] <annevk> according to Wikipedia "rubi" is alternative to "ruby"
  380. # [21:00] * Quits: aaronlev_ (n=chatzill@g228078050.adsl.alicedsl.de) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  381. # [21:01] <Dashiva> Probably a direct transliteration from Japanese
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  391. # [21:32] <gsnedders> http://htmlpurifier.org/demo.php?html=%EF%BF%BF — The return of U+FFFF!
  392. # [21:47] * weinig is now known as weinig|brb
  393. # [21:55] * weinig|brb is now known as weinig
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  401. # [22:38] * gsnedders hopes <http://hg.gsnedders.com/spec-gen/file/tip/src/specGen/processes/xref.py> is a decent xrefing impl.
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  403. # [22:40] <Philip`> Eww, tabs for indentation :-(
  404. # [22:41] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@adsl-70-137-131-51.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net)
  405. # [22:42] <gsnedders> Spaces annoy me. It means I can't decide how much indentation something has — with tabs I can decide how wide they should be.
  406. # [22:43] <Hixie> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/26/technology/26firefox.html?th&emc=th
  407. # [22:43] <hsivonen> I suppose I should wait a while to see how feedback on ruby turns out
  408. # [22:43] <Hixie> "Microsoft waited five years before releasing the sixth version of
  409. # [22:43] <Hixie> Internet Explorer in 2006. Dean Hachamovitch, general manager of Microsoft's
  410. # [22:43] <Hixie> Internet Explorer group, says the company was focused on plugging security
  411. # [22:43] <Hixie> holes during that time."
  412. # [22:43] <Hixie> FIVE YEARS to plug security holes?
  413. # [22:43] <Hixie> exactly HOW BUGGY was their browser???
  414. # [22:44] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@adsl-70-137-131-51.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net)
  415. # [22:44] <gsnedders> hah. They're still claiming that?
  416. # [22:44] <Philip`> gsnedders: Tabs make e.g. that hg page look broken and ugly, because the class contents are only indented by one space
  417. # [22:44] <gsnedders> Most of IE team wasn't even working on IE then.
  418. # [22:44] <othermaciej> claiming what?
  419. # [22:44] <gsnedders> Philip`: I know, it sucks. :(
  420. # [22:45] <gsnedders> Philip`: But it's only the web UI of a SCM :P
  421. # [22:45] <gavin_> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20080526#l-408
  422. # [22:45] <othermaciej> ah, a creative phrasing
  423. # [22:45] <Philip`> gsnedders: The solution is to use spaces, because then there won't be nasty problems when people view your code with various tools :-p
  424. # [22:45] <gsnedders> I hate lxml's .tail. It's a pain in the ass to deal with.
  425. # [22:45] <Dashiva> gsnedders: You have 'get term and strip' twice in the code
  426. # [22:46] * Philip` actually tends to use whatever his text editor has by default, which varies depending on which text editor he uses
  427. # [22:46] <othermaciej> "the company was focused on plugging security holes during that time" ---> "the product was in maintenance mode and all they did was plug security holes as they came up"
  428. # [22:46] <gsnedders> Philip`: That's even worse :P
  429. # [22:46] <gsnedders> Dashiva: But on different things! :P
  430. # [22:47] <Dashiva> gsnedders: Make a function :)
  431. # [22:48] <gsnedders> Dashiva: Hey! I'm more concerned with getting something that works!
  432. # [22:48] <gsnedders> Dashiva: This is the first real project I've taken on in Python, FWIW
  433. # [22:49] <gsnedders> Dashiva: But yeah, it probably should be :P
  434. # [22:49] <gsnedders> [in a function]
  435. # [22:50] <takkaria> I wonder how many bytes are wasted a year by including licences at the top of every file
  436. # [22:50] <Dashiva> gsnedders: Maybe emit a warning if you encounter a second dfn for the same term?
  437. # [22:51] <gsnedders> Dashiva: I have no infrastructure to do such things!
  438. # [22:51] * gsnedders wonders what the "real" spec-gen does
  439. # [22:51] <Dashiva> infrastructure?
  440. # [22:51] <takkaria> gsnedders: then start building it
  441. # [22:51] <gsnedders> it links to the last dfn for the term
  442. # [22:51] <Philip`> Run the real spce-gen on your set of test cases to see what happens :-)
  443. # [22:51] <Philip`> s/ce/ec/
  444. # [22:52] <gsnedders> Philip`: But I, um, don't, um, have, um, access to something that's W3C member only…
  445. # [22:52] <gsnedders> <p><dfn id=foo>foo</dfn><dfn id=foo0>foo</dfn><a href="#foo0">foo</a> is the output, FWIW
  446. # [22:52] <Dashiva> gsnedders: If you have no way to produce output, you can always raise an exception. Very XML and stuff.
  447. # [22:52] <gsnedders> with <p><dfn>foo</dfn><dfn>foo</dfn><span>foo</span> as input
  448. # [22:53] <Philip`> I imagine Hixie would love to have the really quite slow build proces abort halfway through with a fatal error message
  449. # [22:53] <Dashiva> Philip`: I know! Isn't it awesome?
  450. # [22:54] <gsnedders> Philip`: No, less than half way through
  451. # [22:54] <gsnedders> Philip`: Because the W3C and WHATWG copies of the spec go through the spec-gen separately
  452. # [22:55] <Hixie> i'd rather have draconian error handling here than error recovery
  453. # [22:55] <Hixie> either way i have to fix the error
  454. # [22:55] * gsnedders shrugs
  455. # [22:55] <Hixie> but with error recovery i might check in the wrong thing if i don't notice
  456. # [22:55] <gsnedders> I can do draconian easily enough
  457. # [22:55] <annevk> please make id based on the title attribute in some way
  458. # [22:56] <gsnedders> annevk: it already is
  459. # [22:56] <Hixie> in fact right now the spec gen script really annoyingly does all kinds foweird fixups in the face of errors
  460. # [22:56] <Hixie> so much though that i had to add a step that uses henri's validator and then also add a step that shows me the diff post-spec-gen so i can check it didn't fuck anything up
  461. # [22:56] <gsnedders> annevk: http://hg.gsnedders.com/spec-gen/file/tip/src/specGen/utils.py#l38 if you're interested
  462. # [22:56] <annevk> gsnedders, <dfn title=x-x>x</dfn> ends up as <dfn title=x-x id=x>x</dfn>
  463. # [22:56] <annevk> oh, you changed that, ok
  464. # [22:57] <gsnedders> Hixie: Yeah, I've seen plenty of odd things. But with HTML parsers (in the plural) like it uses, that's to be expected :(
  465. # [22:58] * Dashiva wonders how long until someone takes Hixie's comments out of context
  466. # [22:59] <Hixie> i've given up worrying about that
  467. # [22:59] <Dashiva> But these ones are really bizarro world
  468. # [23:00] <gsnedders> yay! http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath works but http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath/ doesn't. TRs aren't consistent about needing a / or not :(
  469. # [23:03] * gsnedders thinks we need chtml5lib
  470. # [23:04] <Philip`> Everyone thinks we need chtml5lib
  471. # [23:05] <Hixie> aw man, anne sent a messgae about ruby to the painters list
  472. # [23:05] <gsnedders> hah!
  473. # [23:06] <takkaria> I wonder what kind of performance gain html5lib would get if just the tokeniser was replaced with C
  474. # [23:06] * Quits: csarven- (i=csarven@on-irc.csarven.ca) ("http://www.csarven.ca")
  475. # [23:06] <gsnedders> http://hg.gsnedders.com/spec-gen/file/tip/src/specGen/utils.py#l72 — XPath is fun. Strings cannot contain both ' and ". Trying dealing with arbitrary input and making it safe to be used in XPath :\
  476. # [23:07] * gsnedders wonders why he doesn't just do a simple replace there
  477. # [23:09] <Philip`> gsnedders: You should probably write that like 'u"concat('', '%s')" % (blah)' since that's easier to read than concatenating three strings
  478. # [23:10] * gsnedders just made it look a bit saner without doing that
  479. # [23:10] <gsnedders> But yeah, that is a good idea
  480. # [23:11] * gsnedders stops clearing that bit up for a day
  481. # [23:14] <annevk> Hixie, keeping them deliberately out of the loop would be bad
  482. # [23:15] <annevk> It was in reply to RB's response here: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wd-html5-may/results
  483. # [23:17] <othermaciej> annevk: is he really worth replying to?
  484. # [23:18] <annevk> Probably not, but that was just what triggered it, pointing out new additions on public-html should be done anyway I think
  485. # [23:19] <othermaciej> I think you are right
  486. # [23:20] <Philip`> annevk: It would have been clearer if your email said which of Robert Burns' concerns you were referring to, since he seems to have more than one
  487. # [23:20] <takkaria> RB has some very big concerns. :)
  488. # [23:21] <annevk> he has some issues, yeah :p
  489. # [23:21] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  490. # [23:22] <gsnedders> And his reasons for disagreeing actually make no sense, according to my built-in parser.
  491. # [23:29] * Quits: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.126.50) (Remote closed the connection)
  492. # [23:30] <annevk> Philip`, feel free to add more info
  493. # [23:50] * Joins: aaronlev (n=chatzill@g228078050.adsl.alicedsl.de)
  494. # [23:56] <weinig> annevk: regarding the Access-Control spec and XHR2, I can't tell if you are supposed to send request headers set by the user using xhr.setRequestHeader
  495. # [23:58] <annevk> weinig, they are included, though it might require a preflight request in case of GET requests
  496. # [23:59] <annevk> weinig, also, some are blacklisted
  497. # [23:59] <annevk> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/XMLHttpRequest-2/#send and http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/access-control/#cross-site
  498. # [23:59] <weinig> is perhaps looking at the wrong version of the spec
  499. # [23:59] * weinig is indeed
  500. # Session Close: Tue May 27 00:00:00 2008

The end :)