/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-05-27 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue May 27 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <weinig> annevk: thanks
  4. # [00:00] <annevk> the latest published drafts were not really clear on this
  5. # [00:00] <weinig> annevk: I was looking at the published stuff
  6. # [00:01] * Joins: csarven (n=csarven@modemcable130.251-202-24.mc.videotron.ca)
  7. # [00:01] <annevk> weinig, feel free to e-mail next time something is not clear as our timezones are not really compatible :)
  8. # [00:01] <weinig> annevk: will do, thanks
  9. # [00:01] <annevk> weinig, I remember you trying to ping me before
  10. # [00:04] <Dashiva> I'm positively surprised by many responses to the publishing poll
  11. # [00:05] <Dashiva> It seems the "WDs need not be perfect" idea has really taken hold
  12. # [00:07] <annevk> It will be interesting when we go for LC
  13. # [00:08] <Philip`> Even for people who think there shouldn't be a WD yet, there already is one and nothing is lost by updating it
  14. # [00:08] <Philip`> annevk: Define "interesting" ;-)
  15. # [00:08] <Dashiva> Philip`: Interesting times interesting
  16. # [00:09] <Dashiva> Glazman's comment seems a bit strange, though. Is a small change to @alt enough to make it not seem like a new version of html?
  17. # [00:12] <takkaria> I like Laura Carlson's response -- "we need more people from outside the WG to comment on how wrong changing the syntax requirements for alt are"
  18. # [00:14] <annevk> that's not what she said
  19. # [00:14] <takkaria> no, but that's what the bits between the lines say. :)
  20. # [00:14] <Philip`> http://www.bellabotanica.com/ - excellent use of ruby elements
  21. # [00:14] <Philip`> ...<br /><img src="images/group01.jpg"></span><rb></br>...
  22. # [00:15] <Dashiva> I was thinking... how many <rt> are there out there that are typos of <tr>?
  23. # [00:15] <Dashiva> I kept writing <tr> when I was making examples with <rt>
  24. # [00:16] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@124-168-33-67.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("bye")
  25. # [00:16] <annevk> I'm not sure <table-row> and <ruby-text> would've been better
  26. # [00:22] * Philip` finds quite a bit of ruby markup in "kids" pages on hiroshima.jp and nagasaki.jp
  27. # [00:22] <takkaria> Philip`: urls?
  28. # [00:23] <Philip`> takkaria: http://www.pref.nagasaki.jp/toukei/kids/ / http://www.city.otake.hiroshima.jp/kids/
  29. # [00:23] <Philip`> Oh, and http://www.city.kawasaki.jp/25/25zinken/home/kidspage/ too
  30. # [00:24] <Philip`> Is it a real correlation between ruby and pages-for-kids?
  31. # [00:24] <takkaria> from what I know of what ruby is used for, doesn't seem an unreasonable conjecture
  32. # [00:27] <Philip`> Is http://za455.myweb.hinet.net/ Chinese?
  33. # [00:28] <Philip`> (The others I seen all looked like Japanese, though I didn't check closely)
  34. # [00:28] <Philip`> s//'ve/
  35. # [00:29] <takkaria> I don't know, but it has spans with lang="en-us" in it :)
  36. # [00:30] <Dashiva> Philip`: It's less needed in pages-for-adults on the internet, since you can copy-and-paste into a dictionary
  37. # [00:34] <Philip`> Hmm, great, IE8 doesn't support Ruby in IE8-mode
  38. # [00:34] <takkaria> hah
  39. # [00:34] <Philip`> Oh, actually, it does something with it, but not anything correct
  40. # [00:36] <Philip`> It does the right thing with font sizes and hiding <rp>s, but doesn't position stuff
  41. # [00:41] <Philip`> Hmm, great, IE8 doesn't render <xmp> as display:block in IE8-mode
  42. # [00:41] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-71-204-153-3.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Excess Flood)
  43. # [00:41] <Philip`> Are they intentionally trying to make IE8-mode incompatible with the web?
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  45. # [00:42] <roc> the thought crossed my mind, but it wouldn't make sense
  46. # [00:44] <takkaria> is this the IE8 beta they released a couple of months ago still?
  47. # [00:45] <Philip`> Yes
  48. # [00:46] <Dashiva> Release fast, release often
  49. # [01:00] <Philip`> <ruby style="ruby-align:rightvertical"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: 新細明體"><font size="4">僅</font></span>...
  50. # [01:00] <Philip`> The web is great
  51. # [01:00] <Dashiva> I'm in awe
  52. # [01:02] <Philip`> <FONT size="-1"><RP><RT></FONT><FONT size="+1" color="#0000ff"><B>TEL03-3968-887１ 　 FAX03-3968-8873</B></FONT><RP></RUBY><BR>
  53. # [01:03] <Philip`> Not quite sure what's going on there
  54. # [01:24] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-7f6a66c048c51f40)
  55. # [01:35] <Philip`> hsivonen: http://validator.nu/?doc=http://philip.html5.org/demos/html/ruby/wild-examples.html - why is it trying to parse the contents of the <xmp> elements?
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  58. # [01:43] <roc> the next IE beta is apparently next quarter
  59. # [01:44] <Philip`> i.e. between a few days and three months away?
  60. # [01:44] * Philip` wonders when quarters start
  61. # [01:44] <Philip`> Oh, probably a month plus a few days
  62. # [01:45] <Philip`> Silly 1-based month numbering system
  63. # [01:45] <roc> that's just how we do things on our planet
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  77. # [03:39] * Dashiva is tempted to bang head against wall
  78. # [03:40] <Dashiva> Maybe the alt discussion has as goal to induce self-inflicted injuries on watchers, to eliminate them from further participation
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  85. # [06:14] <Hixie> annevk: i don't really mind you mentioning it on public-html
  86. # [06:15] <Hixie> it's just that every time anyone brings anything up on the public-html list, people always start asking things for the sake of purity instead of practical reasons
  87. # [06:15] <Hixie> e.g. the numerous questions about why <rb> isn't in the spec
  88. # [06:15] <Hixie> clearly none of the people who asked that have ever used ruby before
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  91. # [07:16] <MikeSmith> Hixie: hey, it worked: "Discuss the difference between rel='' on <link> and <a>. (whatwg r1706)"
  92. # [07:16] <MikeSmith> thanks
  93. # [07:16] <Hixie> nice
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  97. # [09:13] <hsivonen> Philip`: I have no idea why the contents of <xmp> are parsed. Do we have tree builder test coverage for xmp?
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  104. # [09:48] <annevk> Hixie, seems your collegue did the same thing on the WHATWG list so it doesn't really matter :)
  105. # [09:48] <annevk> (and cc'ed the public-html list in the process...)
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  107. # [09:53] * hsivonen wonders how high-troughput apps deal with the eventual performance of server HotSpot
  108. # [09:57] * hsivonen sees a 2D barcode on the desktop version of Nico Nico
  109. # [09:58] <hsivonen> Philip`: it seems that the xmp problem was fixed as a side effect of the major parser refactoring: http://validator.nu/?doc=http://philip.html5.org/demos/html/ruby/wild-examples.html
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  112. # [10:11] <annevk> hsivonen, your parenthetical doesn't make sense (last e-mail)
  113. # [10:13] <hsivonen> annevk: hmm. looks like my turned itself off in the middle of the sentence :-(
  114. # [10:13] <hsivonen> see it happened again. whoa
  115. # [10:14] <annevk> It doesn't make much sense for "data-" to be conforming. You can't access it using dataset...
  116. # [10:14] <annevk> hmm, time for a new one?
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  118. # [10:28] <Philip`> Hixie: Why isn't <rb> in the spec, for the sake of making existing pages that use ruby correctly with <rb> be conforming? :-)
  119. # [10:29] <annevk> Has anyone written a library for .dataset yet?
  120. # [10:29] <annevk> People are struggling with it: http://forum.mootools.net/viewtopic.php?pid=49569
  121. # [10:30] <annevk> Other people hacking to add support for data-: http://creativepony.com/journal/2008/05/27/hack-markaby-to-let-you-use-a-html5-data-attribute/
  122. # [10:31] <Philip`> hsivonen: Okay, thanks
  123. # [10:32] <annevk> Philip`, <rb> isn't in the spec because there's no need for it
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  125. # [10:33] <Philip`> Hixie: s/affilated/affiliated/ in recent checkin
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  127. # [10:35] <Philip`> annevk: It's needed for avoiding gratuitously making existing content non-conforming
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  130. # [10:42] <annevk> Philip`, most content I've seen so far isn't conforming anyway :)
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  132. # [10:48] <Philip`> annevk: Many are pretty close to being (machine-checkably) conforming, so it seems unhelpful to add unnecessary differences
  133. # [10:49] <hsivonen> would dropping <rb> and </rb> in the parser be bad?
  134. # [10:50] <annevk> yes, rb { color:red } and such
  135. # [10:50] <Philip`> That would be confusing, because of <ruby><rb style="font-family: whatever">stuff</rb>...</ruby>
  136. # [10:50] <Philip`> though it's effectively what IE does already
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  138. # [10:50] <Philip`> (so people have to use <span> instead)
  139. # [10:50] <annevk> ruby::base { }
  140. # [10:50] <annevk> ruby::ruby-base { }
  141. # [10:51] <hsivonen> annevk: did you make those up just now or are they from the CSS draft?
  142. # [10:51] <annevk> made them up
  143. # [10:51] <Philip`> That seems unpleasantly complex
  144. # [10:52] <Philip`> It took me years to even work out you could have selectors like "parent child", and :: is much more confusing :-p
  145. # [10:52] <annevk> the alternative is <rb>, which makes the markup more complex
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  156. # [11:56] <Hixie> Philip`: <rb> is non-conforming to help authors who may get trapped by trying to style <rb> without success
  157. # [11:58] <annevk> so dataset[""] = x doesn't work either?
  158. # [11:58] <Philip`> Hixie: By that logic you should make all of ruby non-conforming, to help authors who may get trapped by trying to use it when a reasonably significant number of users use browsers which don't yet support it
  159. # [11:59] <Hixie> annevk: per spec, it should "work"
  160. # [12:00] <Hixie> Philip`: yeah i didn't buy it either. the real reason it's not conforming is because i don't want to add a useless element to the spec, and ruby right now is in very early stages, so i'm willing to sacrifice a few authors today for the good of authors in the coming decades.
  161. # [12:01] <annevk> it does make implementing ruby slightly more complex
  162. # [12:01] <Philip`> Is there a known reason why the original ruby spec has <rb>?
  163. # [12:02] <annevk> apparently it's feasible to implement ruby using the inline table model from CSS and some to set a row as a baseline (Opera has a feature for that)
  164. # [12:02] <Philip`> annevk: Do you mean the presence of <rb> makes it more complex?
  165. # [12:02] <annevk> no, the absence
  166. # [12:03] <Philip`> annevk: You'd have to cope with people who don't use <rb> anyway, so its conformingness seems irrelevant
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  169. # [12:04] <annevk> unless rendering is defined without requiring pseudo elements :)
  170. # [12:04] <annevk> but yeah
  171. # [12:17] <Philip`> annevk: Existing content omits <rb>, so, for compatibility, rendering would have to be defined without requiring explicit <rb> elements
  172. # [12:18] * Hixie tries to support anne in the xhr debacle
  173. # [12:18] <Philip`> (I suppose they could be implied, like tbody etc, but that seems kind of nasty)
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  175. # [12:19] <annevk> Hixie, I think that's going ok now. I just need to get a few outstanding things resolved and then I simply ask for WG resolutions on each because I can't work it out with Julian and then we can go to CR (or another LC, not sure)
  176. # [12:20] <Hixie> WG resolutions?
  177. # [12:20] <annevk> Philip`, seems the main problem is the rb/rt pairing in the current draft
  178. # [12:21] <Hixie> why can't you just make a decision and move on?
  179. # [12:21] <Hixie> you'll always have some peopel unhappy
  180. # [12:21] <Hixie> html5 has all kinds of things julian disagrees with :-)
  181. # [12:21] <annevk> Hixie, yes, but in order to suggest that he can raise a formal objection, i need support of the WG or something
  182. # [12:21] <annevk> Hixie, that seems like the simplest solution to me
  183. # [12:22] * Hixie doesn't plan on trying to get "support of the WG" before telling people to raise formal objections :-)
  184. # [12:22] * Hixie doesn't really care about formal objections at all in fact :-)
  185. # [12:23] <annevk> Hixie, ah, I was wondering whether to reply to that e-mail from sicking asking for more info
  186. # [12:25] <Hixie> seriously though, if you've considered all the input and come to a conclusion, and he just disagrees with your conclusion but agrees that there is no information you aren't aware of, then asking the wg isn't going to do any good
  187. # [12:25] <Hixie> groups of people make random decisions
  188. # [12:26] <Hixie> the more people the more random
  189. # [12:26] <Hixie> random decisions aren't what's best for hte web
  190. # [12:26] <annevk> I had this debacle once in the CSS WG, I don't want it again
  191. # [12:27] <annevk> I don't like it when chairs of WGs go all mad on me
  192. # [12:27] <Hixie> eh you'll get used to it
  193. # [12:28] <Hixie> i guess i'm in the lucky position of being able to just pull out of the w3c altogether if it gets too crazy
  194. # [12:28] <Hixie> we really need a patent policy setup for whatwg
  195. # [12:28] <Hixie> that way we wouldn't need the w3c at all
  196. # [12:31] <gsnedders> Silly W3C.
  197. # [12:31] <gsnedders> "The only person who counts is the editor. If you disagree with the editor, go tell your mummy on him."
  198. # [12:33] <Hixie> if enough people disagree with the editor, the editor gets replaced and is out of a job
  199. # [12:33] <Hixie> but you'll always find people who disagree
  200. # [12:33] <Hixie> anyway. bed time. nn.
  201. # [12:33] <gsnedders> Nah. Everyone agrees with me.
  202. # [12:33] <gsnedders> night, Hixie
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  205. # [13:07] * Philip` really doesn't like when online purchase systems show a payment page with an iframe containing (what claims to be) a page from his bank asking for his number and password for confirmation
  206. # [13:08] <Philip`> since I can't tell where the page is actually from, and even when I can tell I just find it's www.securesite.co.uk and can't tell how legitimate that is
  207. # [13:09] <Philip`> (I'm not even sure if there's an easy way to tell that it's HTTPS)
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  209. # [13:11] <annevk> the banking system in the Netherlands uses redirects for that
  210. # [13:12] <Philip`> Oh, actually, securesite.co.uk is something totally unrelated - the legitimate one is securesuite.co.uk
  211. # [13:14] <Philip`> (http://ambrand.com/2006/09/06/is-securesuitecouk-a-phishing-scam/ etc)
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  213. # [13:58] <gsnedders> Philip`, jgraham: Are either of you involved in the uni open days on 3rd/4th July?
  214. # [13:59] <Philip`> gsnedders: I'm not planning to be
  215. # [14:01] <Philip`> (though I'm also not planning not to be)
  216. # [14:02] <gsnedders> Philip`: :)
  217. # [14:02] * gsnedders will be there
  218. # [14:02] <Philip`> (Depends on whether someone from our group cares enough to do a demo or something)
  219. # [14:03] <gsnedders> I need to decide whether to have a look at the Nat.Sci. stuff or not
  220. # [14:04] <Philip`> (Oh, I guess we don't care enough, since the email said to reply by 2nd May if interested in demoing)
  221. # [14:05] <Philip`> Any particular NatSci stuff?
  222. # [14:07] <gsnedders> Philip`: Well, Physics may be a good guess seeming that's what I've talked about
  223. # [14:08] <gsnedders> Philip`: and seeming I haven't done any other pure sciences in years (I regret not doing Chem., but it's too late now)…
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  225. # [14:11] <Philip`> gsnedders: Ah, sounds reasonable
  226. # [14:12] <gsnedders> The other two prospectuses (York and Edi) arrived today, FWIW
  227. # [14:12] * Philip` still hasn't worked out how to extract useful information from open days
  228. # [14:12] <Philip`> Both today? Sounds like a conspiracy
  229. # [14:25] * Quits: aaronlev (n=chatzill@g226141055.adsl.alicedsl.de) ("ChatZilla 0.9.82.1 [Firefox 3.0/2008051206]")
  230. # [14:32] <gsnedders> Philip`: Well, it still stands true that Cam's propaganda department is better
  231. # [14:33] <Philip`> Hmm, I haven't physically used my computer at the CL for so long that I've forgotten the login password :-/
  232. # [14:41] * Quits: qwert666 (n=qwert666@acbk42.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) ("Leaving")
  233. # [14:45] <gsnedders> Philip`: "password"?
  234. # [14:47] <Philip`> gsnedders: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Password
  235. # [14:49] <gsnedders> Philip`: Why do I think you deliberately misinterpreted what I meant?
  236. # [14:49] <Philip`> (Turns out that actually I did remember the password, but the magic networking stuff was broken so it didn't recognise it until I rebooted (and it takes forever for the computer to reboot because it's got lots of magic networking stuff to set up))
  237. # [14:49] <Philip`> gsnedders: I didn't know how to correctly interpret what you wrote
  238. # [14:50] <Philip`> (and still don't)
  239. # [14:50] <gsnedders> Philip`: The string password is your password.
  240. # [14:50] <Philip`> Oh
  241. # [14:50] <Philip`> It isn't :-p
  242. # [14:55] * Philip` now has Synergy working, so he can use his laptop's mouse and keyboard to control his desktop computer (which has 4x as much screen area, which is sometimes handy)
  243. # [14:55] <gsnedders> Philip`: See, this is why I have a 17" laptop :P
  244. # [14:55] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  245. # [14:57] <Philip`> I've got a 15" laptop, which usually isn't too small and isn't too hard to carry around :-)
  246. # [14:57] <Philip`> but it's not so good when I want a dozen virtual machine shell windows at once
  247. # [14:59] * virtuelv has a 12.1" laptop
  248. # [14:59] <virtuelv> (And an external 20" widescreen monitor)
  249. # [15:01] <gsnedders> I just don't carry mine around much :)
  250. # [15:01] <gsnedders> And I have a nice rucksack to carry it in now :)
  251. # [15:07] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  252. # [15:34] <gsnedders> I'm about to make myself look really stupid. Time for me to try and write C.
  253. # [15:36] <gsnedders> I want to see how much I can speed html5lib up by just rewriting inputstream.charsUntil in C
  254. # [15:40] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  255. # [15:44] <annevk> algirht, now I need to move all XHR1 changes to XHR2
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  267. # [17:11] <gsnedders> I'm failing badly at getting charsUntil any quicker
  268. # [17:15] <Philip`> Which part of charsUntil is slow?
  269. # [17:16] <Philip`> like, is it doing lots of complex calculation itself, or is it just spending its time pulling characters out of Python data structures?
  270. # [17:17] <gsnedders> Philip`: As far as I can see, the former
  271. # [17:17] <gsnedders> well, it's hard to say :P
  272. # [17:19] <Philip`> Try removing all the functionality from the function and see how that affects performance :-)
  273. # [17:20] <Philip`> and if it's still just as slow, then it must be the interface with surrounding code that's slow, in which case I guess you can't do much to optimise that function by itself
  274. # [17:21] <gsnedders> Philip`: There isn't really much functionality to remove, without completely affecting what the function has to do. Removing some of the stuff would make it far quicker as it was operating on less data. :P
  275. # [17:21] * Quits: sverrej (n=sverrej@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  276. # [17:22] <annevk> just rewriting it in C would help
  277. # [17:23] <Philip`> You could remove all the stuff that implements the "until" thing, and run it with test data that doesn't depend on the "until" thing working, and see how much effect that has
  278. # [17:23] <annevk> and then we need it to ship with python by default
  279. # [17:39] <Philip`> Seems like charsUntil can be made ~30% faster just by using a list instead of a deque
  280. # [17:39] <Philip`> (and storing the string reversed, so all the operations happen on the tail of the list)
  281. # [17:40] <Philip`> (except for readChunk but that can be made to only be called when the list is nearly empty, I think)
  282. # [17:45] <Philip`> (Also it could maybe be made much faster by storing a list of strings, instead of a list of characters)
  283. # [17:45] * Philip` might look at that later tonight
  284. # [17:46] <gsnedders> Philip`: How would that allow you to make it quicker, thoguh
  285. # [17:46] <gsnedders> *though
  286. # [17:46] <Lachy> oh crap! I just lost a whole heap of slides cause Keynote died :-(
  287. # [17:46] <Lachy> I
  288. # [17:46] <Lachy> I'll have to remake them now :-(
  289. # [17:46] <Philip`> gsnedders: Which "that" do you mean?
  290. # [17:46] <gsnedders> Philip`: str not char
  291. # [17:46] <Philip`> Lachy: Doesn't all office software have autosave?
  292. # [17:46] <Philip`> gsnedders: It'd let you run regexps
  293. # [17:47] <Philip`> and depending on how Python stores lists, it might be hugely more memory-efficient (hence cache-efficient and everything)
  294. # [17:47] <gsnedders> Philip`: http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/issues/detail?id=69
  295. # [17:48] * Philip` wishes Opera didn't insist on opening patch files with "less"
  296. # [17:48] <gsnedders> Philip`: What if it opened it with "more"?
  297. # [17:48] <hsivonen> Lachy: no Time Machine?
  298. # [17:48] <Philip`> gsnedders: It'd let you run regexps without wasting loads of time calling 'join'
  299. # [17:49] <Philip`> (and without wasting memory etc)
  300. # [17:49] <takkaria> are strings immutable in python?
  301. # [17:49] <Dashiva> Philip`: Maybe you shouldn't set it to use less then :)
  302. # [17:50] <Philip`> Dashiva: I never did, since that'd be stupid :-)
  303. # [17:50] <Philip`> takkaria: Yes
  304. # [17:50] <Lachy> hsivonen, no. The weird thing is I thought I had saved it regularly, but I lost everything since last night
  305. # [17:50] <gsnedders> Philip`: It probably means changing a heckuva lot though
  306. # [17:50] <Lachy> Philip`, obviously keynote doesn't, though I wish it would
  307. # [17:51] <Philip`> gsnedders: I can't see any references other than a dozen mentions of self.queue in inputstream.py, and it should be feasible to optimise things somewhat without changing its interface
  308. # [17:54] <Lachy> at least this time I can remake it faster since I don't have to make decisions again, just remember what I had done, and I still have all the images
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  315. # [18:17] <annevk> gsnedders, the real solution here is a port of hsivonen's parser to C++ and make a Python binding for that and get it shipped with Python 2.x
  316. # [18:18] <annevk> gsnedders, though maybe that's too complex for now
  317. # [18:18] * Joins: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober)
  318. # [18:18] <gsnedders> annevk: Yeah, sure. That gets a quick parser. But how about when you want to iterate over every element in HTML 5? libxml (and lxml therefore too) is the only thing reasonably quick currently
  319. # [18:33] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/Submission/2008/01/
  320. # [18:39] <gsnedders> HTTP is really odd.
  321. # [18:40] <gsnedders> I find it very interesting that IIS (or HTTP.sys, really) is so much stricter than Apache
  322. # [18:40] * Joins: andersca (n=andersca@nat/apple/x-df397c46f34eaad8)
  323. # [18:41] <gsnedders> Even at a basic level, Apache accepts "HTTP / 1.1" while IIS sends 400
  324. # [18:42] <gsnedders> it is, arguably, allowed by RFC2616
  325. # [18:42] <gsnedders> implied lws sux.
  326. # [18:47] <Dashiva> annevk: So they want to push a patented algorithm into web fonts, or?
  327. # [18:49] <annevk> beats me
  328. # [18:49] <annevk> with the recent advanced of Opera and Safari, and soon Mozilla, I think EOT is pretty much dead
  329. # [18:49] <annevk> advancements*
  330. # [18:50] <takkaria> except for people who care about IE
  331. # [18:54] * gsnedders reports a bug on CFNetwork
  332. # [18:58] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@L8afc.l.pppool.de)
  333. # [18:59] <Lachy> any suggestions for what I should put on the slide about <video>? We're probably going to show an actual demo video in a browser for this as well
  334. # [18:59] * Philip` discovers that the bottleneck in his code is "for i in range(self.chunkOffset, len(self.chunk)):", so he rewrites it as an ugly "i = ...; while i < ...; ...; i += 1" and cuts 40% off his execution time
  335. # [19:00] <Philip`> (I would have thought Python wouldn't be so incredibly dumb as to fail to optimise that very common case)
  336. # [19:00] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@adsl-70-137-131-51.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net)
  337. # [19:01] <Dashiva> Nobody uses indexes anymore, Philip`. It's all lists. ;)
  338. # [19:01] <Philip`> The whole point of this code is that lists are slow and I want to avoid them :-p
  339. # [19:01] <Lachy> Philip`, do you have any other cool <canvas> demos we could show off in our presentation?
  340. # [19:02] <hober> Philip`: xrange is your friend
  341. # [19:02] <Lachy> I might just use your game at canvex.lazyilluminati.com
  342. # [19:03] <Philip`> hober: Aha, thanks, that's not noticeably slower than the manual loop, which is nice :-)
  343. # [19:03] <Philip`> (though it'd still be nicer if Python did that optimisation automatically)
  344. # [19:04] <Philip`> Lachy: Canvex is about the only significant <canvas> thing I've done
  345. # [19:04] <Lachy> Philip`, ok.
  346. # [19:04] <Philip`> Lachy: There's http://www.p01.org/releases/DHTML_contests/files/20lines_twinkle/ which might be interesting
  347. # [19:04] <Lachy> Philip`, could you zip up all the files for me so I can easily download and use it offline?
  348. # [19:04] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-3738c707f351448c)
  349. # [19:04] <annevk> Lachy, ask p01, he made that
  350. # [19:05] <Philip`> Lachy: Also http://glimr.rubyforge.org/cake/canvas.html with various stuff
  351. # [19:05] <Philip`> Lachy: What annevk said :-)
  352. # [19:06] <Lachy> annevk, yeah, I will. But was asking Philip` for his canvex game
  353. # [19:06] <Philip`> Lachy: Oh, I misinterpreted you in the same way
  354. # [19:07] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@mb50f36d0.tmodns.net)
  355. # [19:08] <Philip`> Lachy: http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/83/83.zip is an almost recent copy of hopefully all the necessary files
  356. # [19:08] <Philip`> (I think it's just missing the Safari logo in the outdoors bit, because the game didn't work in Safari back then)
  357. # [19:10] * Joins: eseidel_ (n=eseidel@72.14.224.1)
  358. # [19:11] <Lachy> Philip`, it's reporting a well formedness error in ./textures/misc/ui_bottom.svgz
  359. # [19:11] <Philip`> Lachy: That's because Firefox is stupid, I think
  360. # [19:12] <Philip`> Either run it on a local web server, or modify play.xhtml to refer to .svg instead of .svgz
  361. # [19:12] <Philip`> ...and if the .zip doesn't include .svg files then gzip -d the .svgz ones
  362. # [19:12] <Lachy> what's the .svgz file?
  363. # [19:12] <Philip`> gzip-compressed SVG
  364. # [19:12] <Lachy> ok, I can run it from a webserver
  365. # [19:13] <Philip`> Might need to make sure the web server is configured to send the right content-type/encoding for .svgz - I'm not sure if they do it by default
  366. # [19:14] <Philip`> (The problem with using file:/// is that Firefox guesses the content-type but not -encoding for .svgz files, so it tries parsing the compressed data as XML)
  367. # [19:14] <Lachy> what's the apache directive for setting the content-encoding?
  368. # [19:16] <Lachy> Philip`, what's the purpose of the graph I get when I press Cmd+T, and why have you overridden my Open New Tab command?
  369. # [19:16] <Philip`> AddEncoding gzip .svgz
  370. # [19:16] <Philip`> Lachy: It shows the framerate, and I overrode your new tab command because I'm cruel and unthoughtful
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  374. # [19:37] * eseidel_ is now known as eseidel
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  376. # [19:41] <gsnedders> ARGH!
  377. # [19:41] * gsnedders goes mad at RFC2616 using a totally undefined form of BF
  378. # [19:41] <takkaria> someone stamp on your foot?
  379. # [19:41] <gsnedders> *BNF
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  385. # [20:01] <Lachy> oh, damn. running Windows in VMWare on Mac, going to http://localhost/ doesn't see the server running on the Mac, it tries to find the server running on Windows. :-(
  386. # [20:01] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@guest-226.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  387. # [20:03] <hober> ipconfig /all in a terminal, look at the IP for 'default gateway', and point the browser at that
  388. # [20:03] <hober> IIRC
  389. # [20:03] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  390. # [20:04] <gsnedders> Lachy: Change the network type
  391. # [20:05] <Lachy> thanks hober
  392. # [20:07] <Lachy> gsnedders, ?
  393. # [20:08] <gsnedders> Lachy: IIRC, if you go to Settings -> Network (on the VM) one of the options should make localhost the host
  394. # [20:08] <Lachy> hober, re http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20080515#l-1206 - did you get a chance to follow up on that?
  395. # [20:10] <hober> not yet; work's been pretty crazy
  396. # [20:11] <hober> hoping to take a look at it this weekend
  397. # [20:12] <Lachy> gsnedders, none of the prefs in there seem to help
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  400. # [20:18] <Philip`> Lachy: You could use your real machine rather than a VM
  401. # [20:19] * jmb^ is now known as jmb
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  403. # [20:24] <Lachy> Philip`, I need to use the windows build because we don't have a suitable mac build that supports video
  404. # [20:24] <Philip`> Oh, how annoying - I can easily make charsUntil ten times faster on my artifical test case, but it makes about zero different in practice :-(
  405. # [20:25] <Philip`> *difference
  406. # [20:25] <Philip`> Lachy: Ah, okay
  407. # [20:27] * Quits: andersca (n=andersca@nat/apple/x-03c5175697fed534) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  408. # [20:29] <Philip`> ...and when parsing the spec (with parse.py --no-html), inputStream.py is only about 30% of the total execution time anyway, so there's little room for global improvement anyway
  409. # [20:30] * Joins: maikmerten_ (n=maikmert@T7733.t.pppool.de)
  410. # [20:31] * Philip` gives up instead
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  412. # [20:34] <gsnedders> Philip`: That's why I was trying with the spec. That's not so artificial.
  413. # [20:34] <Philip`> Actually I'm cheating and testing with the first 1K or 10K lines of the spec, since I'm lazy
  414. # [20:35] <gsnedders> Philip`: parser.parse() with the lxml etree builder makes charsUntil 70% of the total time
  415. # [20:38] * Joins: Windstoss (n=wind@mnhm-4d016952.pool.mediaWays.net)
  416. # [20:39] <Windstoss> Hi there!
  417. # [20:40] <Windstoss> Does Web Applications 1.0 either directly or indirectly refer to the Selectors API or XmlHttpRequest of the W3C Web API WG?
  418. # [20:41] * Quits: Windstoss (n=wind@mnhm-4d016952.pool.mediaWays.net) (Client Quit)
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  420. # [20:41] <Philip`> gsnedders: When I run parse.py --profile --no-html --treebuilder=lxml on the first 10K lines of the spec, it spends cumtime=0.819 out of total 5.982 in charsUntil
  421. # [20:42] <Philip`> (and 1.507 in total in inputstream.py, vs 2.116 in tokenizer.py and 1.019 in html5parser.py)
  422. # [20:43] <Windstoss> This Colloquy sort of IRC Client is strange :(
  423. # [20:43] <Philip`> Windstoss: It does
  424. # [20:43] <Philip`> Windstoss: e.g. http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-origin.html has an [XHR] reference
  425. # [20:44] <Philip`> Windstoss: (Doesn't refer to the Selectors API as far as I can see, though)
  426. # [20:45] <Windstoss> Philip`: thanks! :)
  427. # [20:45] <Windstoss> Philip`: I'm writing a thesis about HTML 5 and was wondering, if the Selectors API is something seperate
  428. # [20:46] <gsnedders> Philip`: That's totally different to what I get from cProfile…
  429. # [20:46] <Philip`> Windstoss: I think the only relation is that similar people are working on both
  430. # [20:46] <gsnedders> Philip`: 5.214 out of 17.312 using python parse.py --no-html --profile --treebuilder=lxml ../../html5
  431. # [20:47] <gsnedders> Philip`: (that's on an entire several month old .src.html copy of html5)
  432. # [20:47] <Windstoss> Philip`: you mean those pragmatic, we do whats necessary sorts of people? ;)
  433. # [20:48] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@L8afc.l.pppool.de) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  434. # [20:49] <Philip`> gsnedders: Whoops, I was using my modified inputstream.py... With the original it's more like 1.542 out of 6.628 in charsUntil
  435. # [20:49] <Philip`> but that's still only ~25%
  436. # [20:49] <Philip`> Oh, which is not much different to what you saw
  437. # [20:49] <Philip`> (but is quite different to 70%)
  438. # [20:50] <gsnedders> I got 70% from cProfile
  439. # [20:51] <Philip`> Even cutting execution time by 70% wouldn't make html5lib significantly faster, compared to the orders of magnitude from writing the whole thing in Java/C/etc
  440. # [20:52] * Philip` gets depressed and goes home
  441. # [20:52] <gsnedders> Sure, but some of us don't know Java/C :P
  442. # [20:52] <Philip`> That's why you start collecting vast amounts of money to encourage a Java/C programmer to write it for you
  443. # [20:53] <gsnedders> Philip`: Or I just learn C :)
  444. # [20:54] <gsnedders> HTTP is _so_ odd.
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  454. # [21:19] * Dashiva wonders if JF realizes he's arguing that valid HTML is useless
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  463. # [21:32] * Quits: maikmerten_ (n=maikmert@T7733.t.pppool.de) ("Leaving")
  464. # [21:34] <takkaria> I love facebook
  465. # [21:34] <takkaria> in terms of availability, it's getting to be worse than myspace
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  473. # [22:32] <Hixie> is w3.org down for anyone else?
  474. # [22:32] <billmason> Yes.
  475. # [22:33] <Hixie> i swear the w3.org services are down more often than whatwg.org
  476. # [22:34] <hober> w3.org is working for me
  477. # [22:34] <hober> at least, browsing/reading mailing list archives
  478. # [22:35] <Hixie> those are on lists.w3.org
  479. # [22:35] <Hixie> different server
  480. # [22:35] <Philip`> www.w3.org (in France) doesn't work for me
  481. # [22:35] <Philip`> Oh wait, maybe it does
  482. # [22:35] <Philip`> except not over the web, and traceroute goes funny
  483. # [22:36] <Hixie> funny how?
  484. # [22:37] <Philip`> It just gets to inria-nice.cssi.renater.fr and then starts printing *s
  485. # [22:37] <Philip`> which is not particularly funny
  486. # [22:38] <Hixie> ah
  487. # [22:38] <Hixie> that probably just means the next host is down
  488. # [22:38] <Hixie> (or blocking ICMP)
  489. # [22:38] <smedero> it is back up
  490. # [22:38] <Hixie> so it is
  491. # [22:38] <Philip`> ping worked, so it was probably just filtered
  492. # [22:38] * Lachy is glad the spec is mirrored! :-)
  493. # [22:38] * Joins: sverrej_ (n=sverrej@89.10.27.86)
  494. # [22:38] <Hixie> Lachy: sadly, w3.org's mailing list search is not :-(
  495. # [22:39] <Lachy> it's ok. My email on dreamhost is down again as well
  496. # [22:39] <Hixie> heh
  497. # [22:39] <Lachy> so I hadn't noticed
  498. # [22:40] <Lachy> any idea what photo I could use to represent video on the <video> slide?
  499. # [22:40] <Hixie> a dog on a skateboard
  500. # [22:40] <Lachy> I'm looking for a painting canvas, possibly sitting on an easel for use on the <canvas> slide
  501. # [22:40] <takkaria> cinefilm rolls, or something of that nature
  502. # [22:41] <Philip`> Lachy: A screenshot from http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0
  503. # [22:41] <Lachy> Hixie, any particular reason, or did you just pick something random?
  504. # [22:41] <Lachy> LOL!
  505. # [22:41] <Hixie> that's like the canonical youtube video
  506. # [22:41] <Hixie> (the dog on the skateboard)
  507. # [22:41] <Dashiva> I thought the canonical youtube video was a cat doing nothing
  508. # [22:41] <Hixie> a screenshot from the rick roll video would be pretty funny to
  509. # [22:41] * takkaria curses Philip`
  510. # [22:41] <Lachy> yeah, a photo of Rick Astley would be awesome
  511. # [22:42] <Hixie> o
  512. # [22:42] <Dashiva> So will the <video> part be a rickroll?
  513. # [22:43] <Lachy> I should get a copy of that video for the presentation
  514. # [22:43] <Lachy> though, I was intending to use the video of me skiing over a bus
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  516. # [22:44] <Lachy> http://itsnotpossible.typepad.com/trashfan/astley1.jpg :-)
  517. # [22:44] <Philip`> Someone managed to make that video play during a lecture (on 'Introduction to Security') here recently, by sneaking in at night and booting the lecture theatre's computer into Linux to copy a script into Windows' Startup folder to play the video when the lecturer was logged in, which was a useful demonstration of the need for more careful security :-)
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  519. # [22:46] <Lachy> LOL
  520. # [22:47] <smedero> when I'm looking to break up a text heavy presentation involving HTML, I often nab a photo from the visual HTML jokes flickr pool: http://www.flickr.com/groups/htmljokes/pool/page5/
  521. # [22:49] <Lachy> smedero, I've already got 2 LOL cats, a page of Corporate Ipsum, a Rick Astley photo (possibly a video too)
  522. # [22:49] <smedero> sounds like you've got it covered. :D
  523. # [22:51] <Lachy> I can't find a decent picture of a canvas on an easel with an appropriate licence. :-(
  524. # [22:51] <Lachy> maybe I should just go for some famous painting
  525. # [22:52] <gsnedders_mibbit> And me! Don't forget me!
  526. # [22:52] <gsnedders_mibbit> (of what's in the presentation)
  527. # [22:52] <Lachy> gsnedders_mibbit, you're still in there
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  529. # [22:53] <Lachy> though I still have to fit the drunk MikeSmith photo in somewhere too
  530. # [22:55] <Dashiva> I wonder if there's a lorem ipsum equivalent for IDE designers, that uses lorem ipsum generator code
  531. # [22:56] <hdh> they can just ROT13 the IDE's source
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  533. # [22:59] <Lachy> Dashiva, where would an IDE designer user lorem ipsum?
  534. # [23:02] <Lachy> I now have a painting of FSM on the canvas slide
  535. # [23:03] <Lachy> the one Michelangelo painted on the Sistine Chapel :-)
  536. # [23:03] <Philip`> Lachy: I hope you're bearing in mind that HTML is Serious Business
  537. # [23:04] <Lachy> Philip`, yeah, just gotta keep people interested so they'll listen to the serious stuff
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  545. # [23:33] <takkaria> hmm, RB accuses Hixie of ignoring some browser implementers
  546. # [23:38] * Quits: csarven (i=csarven@on-irc.csarven.ca) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  547. # [23:39] <Philip`> It seems true that there hasn't been much input from e.g. Lynx developers, or those people who make mobile browsers that don't work as well as Opera/WebKit, or AT developers who build on top of existing browsers
  548. # [23:39] <takkaria> tis hardly something Hixie can help though
  549. # [23:40] <takkaria> I dunno, maybe I should just killfile RB and let him be someone else's problem
  550. # [23:40] <Lachy> I like how, when we attempted to address RB's concerns, he raised the bar and bitched some more http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008May/0622.html
  551. # [23:41] <Lachy> like, complaining it was added to a later draft, instead of the revision the survey was about, kind of misses the point of asking for someting to be added
  552. # [23:42] <takkaria> the comments about consensus-building are interesting
  553. # [23:42] <takkaria> (in the WG questionnaire)
  554. # [23:42] <Philip`> Perhaps his concerns could be addressed by saying anything that isn't already mentioned in the spec (including the various placeholder notes) isn't going to be added in the future, so he doesn't have to worry about major features not being present yet
  555. # [23:44] <takkaria> http://html4all.org/mailman/archives/list_html4all.org/2008-May/000873.html terrifies me
  556. # [23:45] <Lachy> maybe I should start complaining more loudly. There are still features that I've asked for in the past which still haven't been added.
  557. # [23:45] <Philip`> takkaria: In terms of the web, that seems to be the wrong place to concentrate effort - approximately nobody is going to use such complex markup, and most of those people will get it wrong, so there's a much better return on investment by developing decent heuristics for pronouncing un-marked-up text
  558. # [23:47] <takkaria> Philip`: I knew that already, but maybe now you'll be quoted on the private html4all list
  559. # [23:47] <takkaria> RB is, I think, worse than Dmitry for these kinds of proposals now
  560. # [23:48] <Philip`> takkaria: That private list is only used for administrative details so I'm sure they wouldn't conduct the kind of private conversations there that they used to conduct on list@html4all.org
  561. # [23:48] <takkaria> ah
  562. # [23:48] <takkaria> http://html4all.org/mailman/archives/list_html4all.org/2008-May/000856.html and the messages immidiately after it are similarly astronauty proposals
  563. # [23:48] <takkaria> brb, anyway, popping to tesco
  564. # [23:49] <Lachy> what is tesco?
  565. # [23:49] <Philip`> There's nothing necessarily bad about having markup for pronunciations of text, in certain contexts; it's just not appropriate for the web, which is what HTML5 is focussing on
  566. # [23:49] <Philip`> Lachy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesco
  567. # [23:49] <Philip`> (Big supermarket)
  568. # [23:50] <Lachy> wow, didn't realise they were so big
  569. # [23:50] <Lachy> surprising that I hadn't heard of them before
  570. # [23:51] <Philip`> "over £1 in every £7 [...] of UK retail sales is spent at Tesco"
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  573. # [23:54] <Lachy> how can I represent offline web apps with a diagram?
  574. # [23:55] <Philip`> Gmail logo + unplugged network cable?
  575. # [23:55] <Lachy> hmm. A photo of an unplugged network cable would be nice
  576. # [23:55] <Lachy> that's something I can easily take a photo of myself, so even better
  577. # [23:59] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-06e8511e4ffd78d3)
  578. # Session Close: Wed May 28 00:00:00 2008

The end :)