/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-05-30 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri May 30 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <annevk> very unfortunate
  4. # [00:00] <annevk> MathML uses it too it seems, in some way
  5. # [00:00] <Hixie> the colon? how?
  6. # [00:02] <annevk> xlink:href
  7. # [00:02] <Hixie> oh?
  8. # [00:02] <Hixie> not in text/html it doesn't :-)
  9. # [00:02] <Hixie> oh well i guess it does actually
  10. # [00:02] <annevk> yeah it does
  11. # [00:03] <annevk> also in MathML3
  12. # [00:03] <annevk> and 2 probably
  13. # [00:03] <annevk> it also has xml:space, xml:lang and xml:id (I commented on that one)
  14. # [00:03] <Hixie> oh well
  15. # [00:03] * Quits: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.121.79) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  16. # [00:03] <annevk> I also see my:color and my:background in the attributes list...
  17. # [00:03] <annevk> maybe I should review MathML
  18. # [00:03] <Hixie> xml:space does nothing, as far as i can tell, but text/html supports it
  19. # [00:03] <Hixie> xml:id isn't supported
  20. # [00:04] <Hixie> xlink in general i don't expect to actually be supported
  21. # [00:04] <Hixie> though i guess that's up to the UA
  22. # [00:04] <Hixie> (xlink being incompatible with svg makes xlink less attractive, so i guess most UAs won't do it)
  23. # [00:04] <Hixie> (if they do SVG)
  24. # [00:04] <annevk> yeah, makes more sense to simply ignore XLink
  25. # [00:05] <annevk> i hope they change SVG slightly while still feasible to not require namespaces for references
  26. # [00:05] * Quits: qwert666 (n=qwert666@acax53.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) (Client Quit)
  27. # [00:05] <annevk> by introducing href= and src= attributes where appropriate
  28. # [00:07] <Hixie> i actually hope they don't
  29. # [00:07] <Hixie> redundant attributes cause all kinds of problems
  30. # [00:07] <Hixie> you have to define priority, you have to test that the priority works even with DOM manipulation, etc
  31. # [00:08] <Hixie> it works differently for new and old UAs, etc
  32. # [00:08] <Hixie> and it adds no functionality
  33. # [00:08] <Hixie> just look at the trouble that charset="" has been
  34. # [00:09] <annevk> that's a different case, though I suppose that if we get SVG in text/html without the namespaces requirement it's sort of acceptable
  35. # [00:09] <annevk> "MathML uses the namespace URI http://www.w3.org/ns/mathml-cd for the XML encoding of MathML content dictionaries."
  36. # [00:09] <annevk> -- http://www.w3.org/TR/MathML3/chapter8.html#contm.mcd.format
  37. # [00:11] <Hixie> ooooh
  38. # [00:11] <Hixie> david singer just proposed something to me by e-mail that may solve the alt text issue
  39. # [00:11] <Hixie> how about instead of a new attribute to say when the alt text is an alternative vs being something just saying what kind of image it is
  40. # [00:12] <Hixie> we say that the alt attribute is an alternative unless it starts and ends with a [ and a ] ?
  41. # [00:12] <Hixie> alt='photo' is the alt text for a png of the word "photo", alt='[photo]' is the alt text for a photo with no description
  42. # [00:12] <Hixie> the UA can still do all the magic with alt, _and_ it's probably quite compatible with legacy usage
  43. # [00:12] <Hixie> and it works great in legacy uas
  44. # [00:13] <Philip`> How does it work in legacy AT?
  45. # [00:13] <annevk> what does <img> mean?
  46. # [00:13] <Philip`> (Pronouncing "left square bracket image right square bracket" would be quite irritating)
  47. # [00:13] <Hixie> <img> is non-conforming and doesn't mean anything, and UAs use heuristics to decide how to render it
  48. # [00:13] <Hixie> Philip`: well let's see
  49. # [00:14] * Hixie grabs out his Jaws 8 install from under the bed
  50. # [00:14] <annevk> leaving it out still seems nicer
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  52. # [00:15] <Hixie> leaving it out has issues with legacy content and doesn't convey all the information it could
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  54. # [00:15] <Hixie> (actually saying what kind of image it is)
  55. # [00:15] <Philip`> 0.6% of my alt values are of the form "[...]"
  56. # [00:16] <Hixie> you can get data faster than i can :-)
  57. # [00:16] <Philip`> That's because I can just use grep and perl locally :-)
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  59. # [00:17] <Hixie> :-)
  60. # [00:17] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/data/alt-in-square-brackets.txt
  61. # [00:18] <annevk> some of those seem like real replacements
  62. # [00:18] <annevk> "[Reset Text Size]"
  63. # [00:18] <Philip`> (These are total numbers of occurrences, rather than number of pages)
  64. # [00:18] <annevk> or "[E-Mail]"
  65. # [00:19] <annevk> but maybe that's not too problematic
  66. # [00:19] <Philip`> Given legacy content, UAs can't tell that e.g. alt="[Search]" is any different to alt="Search"
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  68. # [00:20] <Philip`> so either the difference is important, in which case that syntax won't work; or the difference is not important, in which case we don't need any syntax at all and you can just put the not-really-alternative text in the alt attribute directly
  69. # [00:21] <annevk> otoh, it's only 0.6% of the images, that's a small percentage according to some people, right? :D
  70. # [00:22] <Hixie> Philip`: we can't add _any_ syntax without breaking some images. However, that's moot, since even just keepign alt="" as defined in HTML4 breaks a huge number of images.
  71. # [00:22] <Philip`> That's huge compared to how many people will bother adopting whatever requirements we specify for their alt-less critical images :-p
  72. # [00:22] <Hixie> hm maybe this should only apply to images that aren't in lnks
  73. # [00:22] <Hixie> links
  74. # [00:22] <Philip`> so UAs would be better off ignoring the square brackets entirely, because most of the time they'll only be there for tooltip-prettiness instead of for HTML5-spec-conformance
  75. # [00:22] <Hixie> that might solve 90% of our problems here
  76. # [00:23] <Hixie> Philip`: initially maybe
  77. # [00:24] <Philip`> Hixie: I imagine it would take a very long time for a feature that has pretty much no effect for any users to reach 0.6% adoption
  78. # [00:24] <Hixie> it has a small effect, it shows an icon for hte image when the user has images disabled. :-)
  79. # [00:25] <Philip`> Users don't have images disabled
  80. # [00:25] <Philip`> and if they do then they're crazy and don't count
  81. # [00:27] <Philip`> and you're assuming some UAs will implement that icon-hiding behaviour, which seems a dangerous assumption since if they thought it was a good idea then they'd probably have hidden the image icons already
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  83. # [00:30] <Philip`> lxml's text/tail thing is actually quite ugly
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  86. # [00:32] <Hixie> firefox does hide the image icons
  87. # [00:32] <Hixie> has for years
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  89. # [00:36] <Philip`> Oh, okay
  90. # [00:41] <Philip`> It's slightly odd that alt="[..." (8215 matches) is so much more common than alt="{..." (214) and alt="<..." (388) and alt="_..." (285)
  91. # [00:43] <Hixie> maybe we should use { for this then
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  98. # [00:52] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/data/alt-first-char.txt
  99. # [00:53] * Dashiva wonders what the data will be used for
  100. # [00:53] * Philip` shrugs
  101. # [01:04] <Philip`> Hmm, html5lib serialiser is slow :-(
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  103. # [01:08] <annevk> I almost replied to html4all's latest e-mail
  104. # [01:08] <annevk> meh
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  112. # [01:48] <Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008May/0105.html
  113. # [01:54] <Dashiva> "Again, we need an editor who uses his judgment in editing the draft. However, we need that judgment to be informed by the opinions of others in the WG."
  114. # [01:54] <Dashiva> He needs to make up his mind
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  116. # [01:58] <Hixie> http://www.secinfo.com/d11MXs.2WQ9.d.htm is probably a good test case for html5 browsers
  117. # [01:59] <Hixie> (my own html5 parser runs out of element id bits parsing it)
  118. # [01:59] <Hixie> (so that means it has more than 64k elements)
  119. # [01:59] <Hixie> hsivonen's parser has a fatal error on line 236
  120. # [01:59] <Hixie> validator.w3.org returns a 500
  121. # [01:59] <Hixie> the html5 dumper just returns no data
  122. # [02:00] <Hixie> html5lib dumper, i mean
  123. # [02:00] <Dashiva> What is that thing...
  124. # [02:03] <Dashiva> 4.5 MB. gEBTN says 103430 elements, among them 58 tables, 39093 cells (and one <th>).
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  127. # [02:07] <Philip`> html5lib seems happy to parse it, and it only takes a minute
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  134. # [02:45] <Hixie> http://gareth53.blogspot.com/2008/05/atmedia2008-day-1-notes.html
  135. # [02:45] <Hixie> very, very rough notes
  136. # [02:45] <Hixie> "HTML5 by Jame Hunt & Lachlan Young"
  137. # [02:45] <Hixie> "html and xhtml - smae syntax, dif vocab"
  138. # [02:45] <Hixie> some amusing typos there :-)
  139. # [02:45] <Hixie> but the rest of the notes are pretty good
  140. # [02:45] <Hixie> bbl
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  142. # [02:51] <Philip`> Hmm, the spec splitter runs in 20s on my laptop but 105s on my web server :-(
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  147. # [03:01] <Dashiva> Double capitals are a plague on modern society
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  150. # [03:01] <Dashiva> "move from IE^ to IE&"
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  155. # [03:37] * takkaria sighs at RB
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  163. # [06:01] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  164. # [06:01] * Set by gsnedders on Tue Dec 18 21:41:19
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  178. # [06:59] <roc> annevk, shepazu: you around?
  179. # [07:00] <shepazu> a little
  180. # [07:00] <shepazu> hitting the sack soon, kinda tired
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  188. # [08:26] * annevk is now
  189. # [08:40] <othermaciej> so did Google announce anything interesting at Google I/O?
  190. # [08:40] <othermaciej> I heard something about Gears announcements
  191. # [08:40] <othermaciej> (#whatwg is my lazyweb)
  192. # [08:43] <hdh> Hixie said something about his VP publicly endorse HTML5, there was a transcript link too
  193. # [08:43] <annevk> Gears and Android I saw
  194. # [08:43] <hdh> http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/05/28/live-from-google-io/
  195. # [08:44] <othermaciej> I heard they announced various sites will use Gears, I wonder if those will work with browsers that implement the relevant HTML5 features
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  197. # [08:45] <annevk> I saw somewhere that they believed (maybe hoped) Gears would eventually become obsolete, so I hope so, but I'm not sure
  198. # [08:52] <hdh> the implement status box is covering part of the spec text, how can I make it go away?
  199. # [08:52] <annevk> by using the w3.org version
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  201. # [08:55] <hdh> user stylesheet FTW
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  205. # [09:03] <hsivonen> Hixie: wouldn't [] in alt degrade ungracefully?
  206. # [09:04] <hsivonen> Hixie: also, if a validator complained about missing alt, how would you make the author insert [] instead of e.g. file name?
  207. # [09:13] <hsivonen> http://parsetree.validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.secinfo.com%2Fd11MXs.2WQ9.d.htm WFM without error 500
  208. # [09:13] <hsivonen> looks like the HTTP connection times out, though
  209. # [09:14] <hsivonen> (Validator.nu has deliberate short timeouts)
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  211. # [09:17] <annevk> it prints IOException at the end
  212. # [09:19] <hsivonen> annevk: I'm guessing it's a timeout
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  215. # [09:22] <annevk> "In the meaning of technical in the W3C policies it is certainly a technical question whether the document is published or not."
  216. # [09:22] <annevk> -- RB
  217. # [09:22] <annevk> -- http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wd-html5-may/results
  218. # [09:22] * annevk laughs
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  220. # [09:26] <gavin_> haha
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  230. # [10:33] <annevk> hsivonen, http://ajaxian.com/archives/gwt-15-release-candidate-announced
  231. # [10:33] <hsivonen> annevk: that's what I'm using
  232. # [10:35] <othermaciej> so if you combine GWT and Rhino on Rails, it seems that Google's emerging strategy is to run Java on the client and JavaScript on the server
  233. # [10:36] <othermaciej> (someone should tell them they've got it backwards)
  234. # [10:39] <Hixie> GWT compiles the Java language code to JS for the client
  235. # [10:40] <hsivonen> GWT's <super-source/> needs *much* better docs
  236. # [10:40] <Hixie> so really it'd just be using JS as a bytecode :-)
  237. # [10:43] <othermaciej> I wonder if it would be worth making a restricted-JS-to-JS optimizer
  238. # [10:43] <othermaciej> I mean, I know Google has one internally
  239. # [10:43] <othermaciej> but available to the general public
  240. # [10:43] <othermaciej> for example JS implementations cannot soundly do inlining in the general case, but you could pre-inline simple functions if the author promises not to use arguments or caller properties on functions
  241. # [10:45] <Hixie> i believe the Caja project has something like that
  242. # [10:45] <othermaciej> (though I am not sure what else if anything is better done as a pre-pass; maybe if the author makes some promises about not doing weirdshit with getters and setters you can do some common subexpression elimination)
  243. # [10:45] <othermaciej> Caja is a restricted dialect, is it not?
  244. # [10:45] <othermaciej> oh
  245. # [10:45] <Hixie> yeah but the optimiser might be separate, i'm not sure
  246. # [10:45] <othermaciej> it's restricted in a more severe way than what I have in mind
  247. # [10:46] <Hixie> do you have any opinions on whether it is worth adding a feature to make tabindex scoped in html5?
  248. # [10:46] <hsivonen> aaronlev: ^
  249. # [10:46] <othermaciej> it's an interesting idea
  250. # [10:46] <othermaciej> though I tend to think 0 and -1 are the only tabindex values anyone should ever use
  251. # [10:47] <othermaciej> I guess scoping makes it potentially possible to use other values in a non-broken way
  252. # [10:47] * Quits: sverrej (n=sverrej@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  253. # [10:47] <aaronlev> scoped in what way?
  254. # [10:48] <othermaciej> aaronlev: I assume what Hixie means is that you can have a container element and set up the tab order inside it, but without affecting tab order of things before the container or after the container
  255. # [10:49] <othermaciej> which would solve the problem that tabindex is currently all-or-nothing per page
  256. # [10:50] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  257. # [10:50] <aaronlev> yeah that's a problem, but i'm not sure we'd want to use tabindex with a new meaning
  258. # [10:50] <aaronlev> otherwise what about older browsers
  259. # [10:50] <aaronlev> another problem is reading order for a screen reader
  260. # [10:50] <aaronlev> it's like tabindex but it can link containers that aren't necessarily focusable
  261. # [10:50] <aaronlev> i should say it = aria-flowto
  262. # [10:51] <othermaciej> in an ideal world, document order would be set up right for reading/tabbing order and you use CSS to visually reorder things if needed
  263. # [10:51] <aaronlev> yes
  264. # [10:51] <othermaciej> but that does not work well with some table setups
  265. # [10:51] <annevk> what are the use cases?
  266. # [10:52] <othermaciej> annevk: making a reusable control that drops into any page, which has internal focusable items but their logical tab order is not document order
  267. # [10:52] <aaronlev> for flowto or modified tabindex?
  268. # [10:52] <othermaciej> perhaps a grid control where you want tab to go vertically first, then to the next column, etc
  269. # [10:52] <aaronlev> for flowto, you might have a sidebar for an article, and want to decide where the best point in the article to branch off to the sidebar is
  270. # [10:53] <aaronlev> because navigation is not just abotu focusable objects
  271. # [10:53] <othermaciej> sidebars are an inherently nonlinear form of document organization
  272. # [10:53] <aaronlev> yes things like PDF have dealt with this for years
  273. # [10:53] <aaronlev> you have to decide a reading order
  274. # [10:53] <aaronlev> also there is printing
  275. # [10:53] <annevk> sounds like XBL / datagrid
  276. # [10:54] <annevk> and menu
  277. # [10:54] <aaronlev> i remember similar problems turning page layout files into something for braille embossers
  278. # [10:54] <aaronlev> in that case the doc is a set of pages with each page having a set of objects
  279. # [10:54] <aaronlev> kind of a mess
  280. # [10:54] <othermaciej> annevk: XBL doesn't give you anything to control tab order
  281. # [10:54] <othermaciej> (afaik)
  282. # [10:54] <aaronlev> i don't know, does HTML have any goal to go into more of a word processing / publishing space?
  283. # [10:54] <othermaciej> annevk: the problem is that tabindex as specified currently basically can't be used
  284. # [10:55] <othermaciej> because everything with an explicit tabindex comes before all other things
  285. # [10:55] <othermaciej> HTML doesn't have goals, it's just a markup language
  286. # [10:55] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  287. # [10:56] <aaronlev> othermaciej: don't you know what i mean, the most active leaders in html-wg
  288. # [10:56] <othermaciej> I imagine some people have goals to use HTML for more word-processy things
  289. # [10:56] <aaronlev> you guys are some of them
  290. # [10:56] <aaronlev> thanks
  291. # [10:56] <othermaciej> I think a lot of the action in the HTML space right now is about using it as an application format
  292. # [10:56] <othermaciej> I would say Web applications are a more interesting target than Web documents right now
  293. # [10:56] <aaronlev> another interesting use case is key navigable diagrams
  294. # [10:57] <aaronlev> if i'm in an org chart what's the navigation order
  295. # [10:57] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Ex-Chat")
  296. # [10:57] <othermaciej> if the org chart is done in SVG, you can make document order anything you want and use that to control the tab order
  297. # [10:57] <aaronlev> changing tabindex in a non-compatible way isn't as good as implementing something new which takes care of the needs completely
  298. # [10:58] <othermaciej> I'm not sure that when Hixie says "scoped tabindex" he necessarily literally means to reuse the tabindex attribute
  299. # [10:58] <othermaciej> of course, we just had a long conversation about it without him clarifying what he meant
  300. # [10:58] <annevk> othermaciej, XBL + nav-index from CSS prolly does
  301. # [10:58] * Quits: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.126.99) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  302. # [10:58] <aaronlev> the truth is, within many containers the last active element is in the tab order, but as a whole the container is just in the tab order once
  303. # [10:58] <othermaciej> annevk: nav-index?
  304. # [10:58] <aaronlev> within the container directional keys may be used to navigate
  305. # [10:58] <othermaciej> annevk: I don't think CSS is the right place to specify tab order
  306. # [10:58] <aaronlev> tabbing is a limited way to think about navigation really
  307. # [10:59] <annevk> othermaciej, why not, if you reorder items, you might want to change tab order too
  308. # [10:59] <hsivonen> I'm inclined to think tabindex shouldn't change for compat reasons
  309. # [10:59] <othermaciej> tab ordering things is tied to the content
  310. # [10:59] <hsivonen> and that authors should always use 0 or -1
  311. # [11:00] <othermaciej> and is behavioral, not presentational
  312. # [11:00] <othermaciej> and if nav-index is not itself scoped, it does not solve the problem
  313. # [11:00] <annevk> othermaciej, if I position one link before the order in one layout and the other way around in another, I might want to change tab order as well
  314. # [11:00] <hsivonen> it seems to me that in foo-index, "index" is the problem
  315. # [11:00] <othermaciej> I can imagine you could implement scoped tabindex in a way that older browsers would see tabindex="0"
  316. # [11:00] <hsivonen> and ARIA's IDREF-based flow makes more sense
  317. # [11:01] <othermaciej> that is true
  318. # [11:01] <othermaciej> a navigation order should be about next/previous items
  319. # [11:01] <othermaciej> not absolute index
  320. # [11:01] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-0169ffd543c2249c)
  321. # [11:01] <annevk> hsivonen, there's directional navigation properties as well
  322. # [11:02] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-ui/#keyboard
  323. # [11:02] <othermaciej> nav-index is broken in the same way as tabindex
  324. # [11:03] <othermaciej> up/down/left/right do not substitute for previous or next
  325. # [11:03] <othermaciej> and I still think defining keyboard navigation in CSS does not make sense
  326. # [11:03] <othermaciej> even though CSS can change the visual order
  327. # [11:03] <hsivonen> does C++ have something that roughly matches the semantics of Java's static { ... } block?
  328. # [11:04] <hsivonen> i.e. code that runs once when a .dll/.so/.dylib is loaded?
  329. # [11:04] <othermaciej> if you tell me what Java's static { } block does I can probably tell you
  330. # [11:04] <othermaciej> oh
  331. # [11:04] <othermaciej> nothing that you should actually use
  332. # [11:04] <othermaciej> if you have an extern or static global variable of class type, the constructor runs on startup
  333. # [11:05] <othermaciej> but the order is ill-defined
  334. # [11:05] <othermaciej> and it may or may not work right in shared libraries on various systems
  335. # [11:05] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@217.154.74.207)
  336. # [11:05] <hsivonen> :-(
  337. # [11:05] <othermaciej> it is better to have all entry points call an initIfNeeded() type function
  338. # [11:05] <hsivonen> ok
  339. # [11:06] <othermaciej> (I think order of global constructor calls is defined within a translation unit but not between translation units)
  340. # [11:06] <hsivonen> or perhaps if the V.nu parser was ported to C++, the static blocks could be replaced with some tormented preprocessor/template code
  341. # [11:07] <hsivonen> I use static {} blocks to initialize a couple of sorted arrays with magic data in them
  342. # [11:07] <hsivonen> I *could* generate the arrays in the right order ahead of compile time
  343. # [11:08] <hsivonen> but then I'd need an additional script to keep in sync
  344. # [11:08] <othermaciej> for cases of magic data arrays
  345. # [11:08] <othermaciej> what I like to do is generate the source code for the array constant from a template file by script
  346. # [11:08] <othermaciej> (we do that for CSS properties, tag names, attribute names, CSS property keywords, JS language keywords, etc)
  347. # [11:09] <hsivonen> ok. thanks. I'll do that if the need arises
  348. # [11:11] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  349. # [11:11] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@217.154.74.207) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  350. # [11:18] <Hixie> sorry, got distracted
  351. # [11:18] <Hixie> this would be a new attribute
  352. # [11:18] <Hixie> which modifies the behaviour of tabindex
  353. # [11:19] <Hixie> so that numbers greater than 0 only consider other tabindex attributes within that same scope
  354. # [11:19] <Hixie> i tend to think that maybe it's not worth it
  355. # [11:19] <hsivonen> Hixie: what's the compat story?
  356. # [11:20] <Hixie> none really, this likely wouldn't be used until this generation was obsolete
  357. # [11:20] <zcorpan> hsivonen: in my experience, generally, pages that use tabindex today have bad usability in today's browsers anyway
  358. # [11:20] <Hixie> aha, zcorpan! i was looking for you earlier
  359. # [11:20] <Hixie> this was originally your diea
  360. # [11:20] <Hixie> idea
  361. # [11:21] <zcorpan> hey Hixie
  362. # [11:21] <othermaciej> Hixie: I think a way to specify next element in the tab order by ID would be more useful, if any such thing is to be added
  363. # [11:22] <othermaciej> (and then you could also specify tabindex="0" if needed or not give a tabindex, for compat)
  364. # [11:22] <othermaciej> but I am not sure it is critical in any case
  365. # [11:23] <Hixie> yeah
  366. # [11:24] <zcorpan> Hixie: i think source order is a powerful enough tool to specify tab order, and browsers would probably be more usable on legacy content if all positive values were treated as 0
  367. # [11:25] <othermaciej> zcorpan: tables are about the only case where you may want a tab order that is not natural source order, and it's hard to fix the source order w/o breaking the layout
  368. # [11:25] <Hixie> yeah. the spec allows that, iirc
  369. # [11:25] <othermaciej> (at least so far as I can think of)
  370. # [11:25] <Hixie> it seems like this might be a CSS thing anyway
  371. # [11:25] <Hixie> css3 ui does try to take this responsibility
  372. # [11:25] <zcorpan> othermaciej: true
  373. # [11:25] <aaronlev> Should be able to point to id of a non-focusable container
  374. # [11:26] <aaronlev> as next thing to navigate to
  375. # [11:26] <othermaciej> it should be able to point to anything, and tabbing will find the next item in document order from there
  376. # [11:26] <zcorpan> othermaciej: wasn't there a proposal to swap the direction of tables so that rows become columns?
  377. # [11:27] <othermaciej> zcorpan: I do not recall such a thing but I have not followed every proposal
  378. # [11:27] <othermaciej> that particular proposal sounds like it would have a lousy compat story
  379. # [11:28] <aaronlev> othermaciej: after tabbing past the end of the container pointed to, should tabbing continue after the container? Or should it continue on from the original point that branched to the container
  380. # [11:28] <aaronlev> iow
  381. # [11:28] <aaronlev> i might want to say, tab through all the stuff over there before continuing on here
  382. # [11:28] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@217.154.74.207)
  383. # [11:28] <aaronlev> more like a subroutine than giving up control
  384. # [11:29] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  385. # [11:29] <othermaciej> sounds dubious
  386. # [11:29] <othermaciej> if you want that, the target container can point back to after you
  387. # [11:29] <othermaciej> tabbing into the same container from two different points does not sound like good UI
  388. # [11:30] * Quits: annevk (n=annevk@77.163.243.203) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  389. # [11:30] <othermaciej> Cocoa just lets you specify the previous item, the next item, and whether any given item is keyboard focusable
  390. # [11:30] <othermaciej> it works pretty well
  391. # [11:30] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@217.154.74.207) (Client Quit)
  392. # [11:30] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@77.163.243.203)
  393. # [11:32] <aaronlev> othermaciej: but that's not sufficient for documents
  394. # [11:32] <aaronlev> because for screen readers the reading order of doc text needs to match the nav order or it gets confusing
  395. # [11:32] <aaronlev> so it's better if each container points to the next
  396. # [11:32] <aaronlev> plus it's fewer things to change
  397. # [11:32] <aaronlev> for the author
  398. # [11:33] <othermaciej> I just suggested each thing pointing to the next
  399. # [11:33] <othermaciej> I don't think I understand what is different about your proposal
  400. # [11:33] <othermaciej> (other than being about more than just tab order)
  401. # [11:34] <aaronlev> it might not be different, just IRC communication ambiguity
  402. # [11:34] <othermaciej> that is possible
  403. # [11:34] <othermaciej> back in a few
  404. # [11:34] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@adsl-70-137-131-51.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net)
  405. # [11:39] * Quits: aaronlev (n=chatzill@g228015218.adsl.alicedsl.de) ("ChatZilla 0.9.82.1 [Firefox 3.0/2008051206]")
  406. # [12:02] <hsivonen> boohoo. I get unending unresponsive script dialogs when I try to run the script GWT compiled
  407. # [12:04] <hsivonen> hah. The script crashes Drosera.
  408. # [12:04] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@adsl-70-137-131-51.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net)
  409. # [12:11] <zcorpan> Error: = in an unquoted attribute value.
  410. # [12:11] <zcorpan> At line 234, column 38
  411. # [12:11] <zcorpan> istrant.asp?CIK=30908
  412. # [12:11] <zcorpan> http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.secinfo.com%2Fd11MXs.2WQ9.d.htm
  413. # [12:11] <zcorpan> hsivonen: looks like a false positive
  414. # [12:13] <hsivonen> zcorpan: per spec http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#attribute4
  415. # [12:13] <zcorpan> hsivonen: yes i know
  416. # [12:13] <zcorpan> hsivonen: still, false positive in the sense that it wasn't a mistake
  417. # [12:13] <Hixie> hsivonen: drosera crashes a lot for me
  418. # [12:14] <Hixie> anyway bed time
  419. # [12:14] <Hixie> nn
  420. # [12:16] <annevk> zcorpan, hmm yeah, escaping = in URIs would be annoying
  421. # [12:17] <zcorpan> annevk: the straightforward "fix" is to use quotes
  422. # [12:18] <annevk> meh
  423. # [12:42] <Philip`> zcorpan: Forbidding = also detects errors like <img src=whatever.gifalt=something>, which wouldn't be caught by forbidding " and '
  424. # [12:42] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  425. # [12:42] <zcorpan> Philip`: true
  426. # [12:42] <annevk> you'd catch that one by looking at the page
  427. # [12:43] <annevk> (though not for <a rel=xtitle=foo> I suppose)
  428. # [12:43] <othermaciej> drosera is obsolete
  429. # [12:44] <hsivonen> othermaciej: interesting. has the replacement been shipped?
  430. # [12:44] <othermaciej> hsivonen: yeah, debugging is built into the Web Inspector now
  431. # [12:44] <othermaciej> the latest WebKit nightlies don't even include Drosera
  432. # [12:44] <hsivonen> oh. I was unaware
  433. # [12:44] <hsivonen> thanks
  434. # [12:45] <othermaciej> we haven't widely announced it yet, but we should soon
  435. # [12:45] <othermaciej> the new debugger is much more stable and performance
  436. # [12:45] <othermaciej> *performant
  437. # [12:46] <zcorpan> Philip`: perhaps we should pages that have = in unquoted attributes to get an idea whether it helps or hurts
  438. # [12:46] <zcorpan> s//look at/
  439. # [12:49] <zcorpan> yay.. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ig/2008AprJun/0087.html
  440. # [12:52] <zcorpan> (aria editor's drafts are now public)
  441. # [13:01] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host217-44-35-200.range217-44.btcentralplus.com)
  442. # [13:07] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-0169ffd543c2249c)
  443. # [13:26] <Philip`> zcorpan: http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/changing_lanes/ -- <iframe valign=top WIDTH= HEIGHT= MARGINWIDTH=0 ...>
  444. # [13:27] <Philip`> http://www.ahaus-online.de/ -- <table width=100%cellpadding="4" cellspacing="1">
  445. # [13:27] <zcorpan> Philip`: ooh interesting
  446. # [13:28] <Philip`> Most of the cases look like <a href=foo?bar=baz>
  447. # [13:30] <annevk> <table width> is not conforming anyway :)
  448. # [13:30] <Philip`> zcorpan: If you want some extremely rough raw data, see http://philip.html5.org/data/some-unquoted-attributes-with-equals.txt
  449. # [13:31] <Philip`> (That's all lines (for the first n pages before I got bored and stopped it) matching /<[a-zA-Z0-9:]+[^"'>]+\s[a-zA-Z0-9:]+\s*=\s*[^\s>"']+=/ which seems to kind of work alright as an approximation)
  450. # [13:32] <Philip`> http://www.specialtybottle.com/: <INPUT type=hidden value=BGCOLOR=#FFFFFF name=nonUPS_body>
  451. # [13:32] <zcorpan> Philip`: don't you think the value was intended to be "BGCOLOR=#FFFFFF"?
  452. # [13:33] <zcorpan> Philip`: the other two cases would get caught by other errors
  453. # [13:33] <Philip`> Oh
  454. # [13:33] <Philip`> That's possible
  455. # [13:34] <Philip`> http://www.gencat.net:8000/osial/owa/p01.dad_ens?cod=1708650006: <TD VALIGN=TOP BGCOLOR=6A92E3><B><FONT FACE=ARIALSIZE=1 color="#FFCC66">DADES GENERALS</FONT></B></TD>
  456. # [13:34] <Philip`> <table width= otherstuff=etc> seems surprisingly common
  457. # [13:35] <zcorpan> seems people think that whitespace starts a new attribute
  458. # [13:35] <zcorpan> perhaps that should be banned? <p class= foo>?
  459. # [13:36] <gsnedders> I should probably blog something this month before this month ends.
  460. # [13:37] <annevk> i don't think so
  461. # [13:38] <Philip`> gsnedders: For any particular reason?
  462. # [13:38] <gsnedders> Philip`: Because I normally blog at least once per month :P
  463. # [13:40] <zcorpan> <TABLE width=240 height=300 border=0<cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 bgcolor="083a81">
  464. # [13:43] <Philip`> Far too many people use <table> :-/
  465. # [13:43] <zcorpan> <FONT face=Arial,color=#ffffcc>
  466. # [13:46] <Philip`> (and <font>)
  467. # [13:47] <Philip`> (and uppercase tag names)
  468. # [13:47] <Philip`> (and unquoted attributes)
  469. # [13:47] <Philip`> (XHTML is much prettier, except for all the closing-tag stuff)
  470. # [13:51] <zcorpan> <a class=chlnk href onclick=this.style.behavior='url(#default#homepage)';this.setHomePage('http://www.elarcadenoe.org'); style=CURSOR:hand>
  471. # [13:52] <zcorpan> i think that's the first time i've seen <a href> in the wild
  472. # [13:53] <virtuelv> hm, new favicon for Google
  473. # [13:53] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@217.154.74.207)
  474. # [13:55] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@217.154.74.207) (Client Quit)
  475. # [13:57] <Philip`> zcorpan: You haven't been looking at many pages if that's the first <a href> you've seen :-p
  476. # [13:58] <zcorpan> Philip`: i mean as opposed to <a href=''>
  477. # [13:58] <zcorpan> or <a href="">
  478. # [13:58] <Philip`> I mean that too
  479. # [13:58] <zcorpan> ok
  480. # [13:59] <Philip`> But I can cheat and use grep instead of actually looking at pages :-)
  481. # [13:59] <zcorpan> :P
  482. # [13:59] <Philip`> Hmm, maybe it's not actually extremely common
  483. # [14:00] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/data/some-minimised-href.txt is some (limited to those where the href is the first attribute)
  484. # [14:01] <zcorpan> still not many pages
  485. # [14:01] <Philip`> That's because my computer's too slow and hasn't finished checking all the pages I've got :-(
  486. # [14:02] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-56a52dd573e416f7)
  487. # [14:02] <zcorpan> hmm, <meta name="keywords" content="<meta name=verify-v1 content=B+yjuq6j1MLG1uzPsO3Z2gR2ECWibgtutlpJeA/3g7k= />">
  488. # [14:02] <Philip`> http://dementia.seesaa.net/: <a href><a href="http://dementia.seesaa.net/article/9909416.html">FmÇÌè`</a><br>
  489. # [14:03] <Philip`> (http://philip.html5.org/data/some-minimised-href.txt now updated a bit)
  490. # [14:08] <Philip`> http://www.pscelex.com/: <a href HREF="quotes.html" class="psc1">Quotes</a>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
  491. # [14:08] <Philip`> The HTML5 parser breaks that
  492. # [14:08] <Philip`> but maybe that's okay since Firefox breaks it already
  493. # [14:09] <Philip`> ...and so does IE
  494. # [14:09] <Philip`> (but not Opera)
  495. # [14:10] <Philip`> (Uh... Not Opera 9.2)
  496. # [14:10] <Philip`> (but 9.5 does break it)
  497. # [14:12] <annevk> 9.5 has bug fixes :)
  498. # [14:13] <Philip`> And bugs, since it says there's two 'href' attributes on the element :-p
  499. # [14:13] <Philip`> (both with value "")
  500. # [14:14] <Philip`> (though innerHTML shows the two attributes with distinct values)
  501. # [14:15] <Philip`> zcorpan: http://philip.html5.org/data/some-minimised-href.txt is now finished updating, showing all lines matching /(?i)<a\s*href\b\s*[>a-z]/
  502. # [14:16] <Philip`> so I guess you were right that it's not particularly common :-(
  503. # [14:16] <zcorpan> http://tinyurl.com/5e2c7s - trimmed list (removed rows with src=, href=, action=, rows that were just js, and rows that contained URLs with = )
  504. # [14:17] <zcorpan> uh
  505. # [14:17] <zcorpan> why doesn't it work
  506. # [14:17] <Philip`> Works for me
  507. # [14:17] <Philip`> assuming 'it' == that tinyurl
  508. # [14:18] <Philip`> and not in Firefox
  509. # [14:18] <zcorpan> http://preview.tinyurl.com/5e2c7s works
  510. # [14:20] <Philip`> <META name= robots= content "INDEX, FOLLOW" > is impressively wrong
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  513. # [15:01] <zcorpan> Philip`: yeah
  514. # [15:05] <zcorpan> hsivonen: <!DOCTYPE html><title></title><embed x "y src=''> validates in v.nu
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  516. # [15:10] <zcorpan> uh, i can't spell to majority
  517. # [15:13] <zcorpan> hsivonen: trying to validate the empty string using the textarea doesn't seem to work (the textarea becomes disabled)
  518. # [15:14] <Philip`> zcorpan: foo=="bar" wouldn't have shown up because my regexp didn't match that
  519. # [15:16] <zcorpan> Philip`: ah
  520. # [15:17] <Philip`> but if I do search specifically for <something something== then I find mostly
  521. # [15:17] <Philip`> if (p<1 || p==(val.length-1)) errors+='- '+nm+' must contain an e-mail address.\n';
  522. # [15:17] <Philip`> except for:
  523. # [15:17] <Philip`> http://www.epinions.com/game-Titles-Consoles-SonyPlaystation-All-Brave_Fencer_Musashi: <span class=lkr>Enter your ZIP code to see if there is tax & shipping &nbsp;</span><span class="rkr"><input name="zip" type="text" value="Your ZIP" maxlength="9" size="10" style="color:#7D7D7D" onfocus="javascript:clearDefault(this)">&nbsp;&nbsp;<input name=="zip_submit" align="middle" type="submit" value="Enter"></span><br>
  524. # [15:17] <Philip`> http://www.angelfire.com/movies/bcrudup/: <font color==#9370D8>
  525. # [15:17] * Joins: itpastorn (n=itpastor@ne.keryx.se)
  526. # [15:17] <Philip`> http://www.delhieducation.net/: <td colspan==2 height=10>
  527. # [15:18] <Philip`> http://www.watsonvillehs.net/: <TD BACKGROUND=="http://www.watsonvillehs.net/images/departments07/home_bw.jpg" ALIGN="CENTER" >
  528. # [15:18] <zcorpan> so it does occur, that's good to know
  529. # [15:18] <Philip`> http://www.ottosell.de/jds/jdsworks.htm: <meta name=="revisit-after" content="20 days">
  530. # [15:18] <Philip`> http://www.caribbean-travel.com/airnegril/: <P align=left><FONT color=red face=Arial size==+2><STRONG>In US Toll
  531. # [15:18] <Philip`> and more
  532. # [15:18] <zcorpan> feel free to reply that to the list :)
  533. # [15:20] <mpt> Philip`, stop it, you're depressing
  534. # [15:20] <mpt> :-)
  535. # [15:21] <Philip`> mpt: Don't blame me, blame the web :-)
  536. # [15:34] <gsnedders> Damned web.
  537. # [15:34] <gsnedders> We need Web 2.0!
  538. # [15:34] <gsnedders> Oh, wait.
  539. # [15:34] <gsnedders> Web π!
  540. # [15:36] <zcorpan> gsnedders: is Web π where authors don't make mistakes?
  541. # [15:36] <gsnedders> zcorpan: Yeah, and where XHTML 2.0 and XML validating processors are used
  542. # [15:37] <zcorpan> gsnedders: then hsivonen would be out of business
  543. # [15:38] <gsnedders> zcorpan: True, but Web π is an idealistic dream, and nothing more.
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  546. # [15:51] <takkaria> I think it's a bad ideal, too
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  552. # [16:25] <Philip`> gsnedders: http://benjamin.smedbergs.us/blog/2008-05-30/google-cache-only-spam/
  553. # [16:29] <gsnedders> Philip`: Yeah, he emailed us too
  554. # [16:31] <takkaria> hmm, http://robert.accettura.com/blog/2008/05/29/rebreaking-the-web/
  555. # [16:34] * Joins: aaronlev (n=chatzill@e176251108.adsl.alicedsl.de)
  556. # [16:36] <annevk> Rome wasn't built in a day
  557. # [16:36] <gsnedders> build('Rome', 86400);
  558. # [16:36] <gsnedders> Done.
  559. # [16:39] <takkaria> I'm just not sure what he proposes as an alternative
  560. # [16:39] <annevk> no
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  566. # [17:31] <annevk> the stronger people advocate modularization, the more I start to think it's not that easy
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  568. # [17:48] <gsnedders> School now officially sucks
  569. # [17:48] <gsnedders> I am no longer in Secondary 5.
  570. # [17:48] <gsnedders> I am now in Secondary 6 :(
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  579. # [18:41] <hsivonen> is there a reason why <!DOCTYPE html><title></title><embed x "y src=''> should not validate per spec?
  580. # [18:48] * Joins: csarven (i=csarven@on-irc.csarven.ca)
  581. # [18:49] <annevk> yeah "y is not conforming
  582. # [18:52] * Joins: itpastorn (n=itpastor@139.57.227.87.static.th.siw.siwnet.net)
  583. # [18:52] <hsivonen> annevk: which part of the spec says that "y is not conforming?
  584. # [18:53] <Philip`> hsivonen: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-writing0.html#attributes1
  585. # [18:53] <Philip`> "Attribute names must consist of one or more characters other than the space characters, U+0000 NULL, U+0022 QUOTATION MARK ("), U+0027 APOSTROPHE ('), U+003E GREATER-THAN SIGN (>), U+002F SOLIDUS (/), and U+003D EQUALS SIGN (=) characters, the control characters, and any characters that are not defined by Unicode."
  586. # [18:54] <hsivonen> Philip`: but the writing section isn't normative for conformance checking
  587. # [18:54] <hsivonen> Philip`: it's just a restatement of something else
  588. # [18:54] <hsivonen> (potentially a buggy restatement)
  589. # [18:55] <Philip`> If it was just a restatement of a normative requirement, it shouldn't say "must", I would have thought
  590. # [18:57] <hsivonen> time to send email, I guess
  591. # [19:03] <annevk> whoa, why does Mozilla want to make Access Control so damn complicated :(
  592. # [19:04] * Parts: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  593. # [19:06] <hsivonen> whoa! when did Hixie put " and ' back as tokenizer parse errors in the attribute name state?
  594. # [19:07] <hsivonen> hmm. I even have it implemented
  595. # [19:08] <hsivonen> the problem is in the previous state
  596. # [19:08] * hsivonen is puzzled
  597. # [19:10] <hsivonen> hmm. it only happens if the previous attribute is a boolean attribute
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  599. # [19:11] <hsivonen> email sent
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  602. # [19:13] <hsivonen> I need to go through all the intra-tag parse errors and add probable causes to the messages
  603. # [19:15] <hsivonen> annevk: it seems to me that the AC cookie issue could be mitigated by instructing servers to make same-site-XHR duplicate the cookie value in a custom header
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  606. # [19:17] <hsivonen> annevk: it might be worthwhile to add a Note about verifying that a request is same-site by checking for a custom header that duplicates the cookie
  607. # [19:17] <hsivonen> annevk: since non-same-origin site could not have read the cookie in order to set the custom header
  608. # [19:18] <hsivonen> (trick from the GWT security guide)
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  619. # [20:17] <hsivonen> http://www.oreillynet.com/xml/blog/2008/05/ubiquity_xforms.html
  620. # [20:19] * Quits: eseidel_ (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-db30d519922e2899)
  621. # [20:22] <hsivonen> what's the relationship of Backplane Ltd. and x-port.net Ltd.?
  622. # [20:23] <hsivonen> they seem to share the address and the managing director
  623. # [20:23] <annevk> hsivonen, if it is a real issue suggesting workarounds for servers is probably not a good solution
  624. # [20:24] <annevk> hsivonen, because people won't do it
  625. # [20:24] <annevk> I'm not really convinced it's a real issue though
  626. # [20:24] <hsivonen> annevk: Google seems to be serious about suggesting cookie duplication as an anti-CSRF measure
  627. # [20:25] <hsivonen> it's already needed for protecting same-site XHR endpoints that could be fooled by cross-site form POST or the like
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  629. # [20:51] <Philip`> Handy hint: When upgrading GRUB on Gentoo, check whether it says it's going to make your system unbootable unless you do the MBR setup process again
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  638. # [21:40] <hsivonen> w00t. I have the V.nu parser runnig as JS
  639. # [21:40] <hsivonen> it needs a setTimeout event pump before anyone can actually use it for anything useful
  640. # [21:48] <Philip`> :-o
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  651. # [22:32] <hsivonen> so firebug crashes on me when I try to debug an unresponsive script
  652. # [22:33] <hsivonen> and Web Inspector in WebKit beach balls on unresponsive script and doesn't offer to debug it
  653. # [22:37] <hsivonen> looks like there'd be a use case for Canvas 3D: http://googlesystem.blogspot.com/2008/05/google-earth-browser-plugin.html
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  657. # [22:57] <kingryan> hsivonen: how are you running it as javascript?
  658. # [22:58] <hsivonen> kingryan: compiled it with GWT with a JS entry point
  659. # [22:58] <hsivonen> however, the tokenizer eof() method goes into an infinite loop in JS but not in Java bytecode
  660. # [22:58] <Philip`> Does GWT produce readable JS code?
  661. # [22:58] <hsivonen> kingryan: with the browser's native DOM as the tree impl
  662. # [22:59] <hsivonen> Philip`: it can produce semi-readable code which is how I figured what loop it gets stuck into
  663. # [22:59] <hsivonen> Philip`: by default, the output is *totally* unreadable
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  667. # [23:12] <Hixie> hsivonen: if you can find a way to reproduce it in a small test file, i can report the bug
  668. # [23:13] <hsivonen> Hixie: do you mean small HTML input or a minimized Java case?
  669. # [23:13] <Hixie> small gwt input; minimised java case
  670. # [23:13] <hsivonen> Hixie: that would be *hard*
  671. # [23:13] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'll try to debug this a bit more in the morning
  672. # [23:13] <Hixie> yeah, i figure it would be
  673. # [23:14] <Hixie> realistically i doubt the gwt team would have the time to track down the bug if they had to learn your code too :-)
  674. # [23:14] <hsivonen> yeah :-(
  675. # [23:14] <hsivonen> I'll see if the method behaves the same way in isolation
  676. # [23:15] <Hixie> it's an open source project though right? there should be a public bug reporting form if you want to just attach the entire project with steps to reproduce
  677. # [23:15] <Hixie> also does it do the same thing in other UAs?
  678. # [23:15] <hsivonen> yeah, there's a public bug tracker
  679. # [23:15] <hsivonen> same problem both in Gecko and WebKit
  680. # [23:17] <Hixie> k
  681. # [23:17] <Hixie> probably a fundamental compiler bug then unless it's actually a bug in your code somehow
  682. # [23:17] <hsivonen> it works in the hosted mode
  683. # [23:18] <hsivonen> which suggests it is a compiler bug
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  685. # [23:18] <Hixie> yep
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  687. # [23:20] <hsivonen> nn
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  695. # [23:34] <smedero> "TBL: I feel it is important that the HTML5 spec be split into smaller chunks." http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/05/21-minutes
  696. # [23:34] <Hixie> i think everyone agrees with that
  697. # [23:34] <Philip`> It's fun trying to install Python 2.3 modules on Gentoo, since I have to make the /usr/bin/python symlink point to python2.3 so they get installed for 2.3, but Gentoo's package manager relies on Python 2.4 features :-(
  698. # [23:35] <zcorpan_> Hixie: i don't think it's particularly important
  699. # [23:35] <Philip`> jgraham / annevk / etc: Is it know that several tests like "32-bit hex numeric entity" fail in Python 2.3?
  700. # [23:35] <Philip`> s/know/known/
  701. # [23:35] <Philip`> (...in html5lib)
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  703. # [23:35] <Philip`> ("OverflowError: string/unicode conversion")
  704. # [23:38] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-8ff1f1dd60934a2c)
  705. # [23:40] <bzed> jgraham: hey :) any news on a html5lib release?
  706. # [23:40] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: i agree that always allowing = in unquoted attributes seems bad
  707. # [23:41] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: src and href (and action) are not the only attributes that take uris in practice, <option value> in particular was pretty common
  708. # [23:43] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: (or rather, letting the authoring mistakes in go uncatched seems bad)
  709. # [23:43] <zcorpan_> s/in //
  710. # [23:45] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: moreover, uris were not the only cases of deliberate use of =
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  712. # [23:48] <annevk> Philip`, I forgot whether we cared about Python 2.3
  713. # [23:49] <annevk> Philip`, I guess we might
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  715. # [23:49] <Philip`> annevk: It's weird since it works fine when I run test_tokenizer.py, but a few of those tokeniser tests fail when I run runtests.py :-/
  716. # [23:50] <Philip`> Does an earlier test do something funny to the Python environment?
  717. # [23:52] * Quits: billmason (n=billmaso@ip66.unival.com) (".")
  718. # [23:55] <Philip`> Oh, test_parser.py does warnings.simplefilter("error")
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  720. # Session Close: Sat May 31 00:00:00 2008

The end :)