/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-06-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Jun 01 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  4. # [00:22] <jgraham> For the benefit of whoever marked the logs, I should also note that there were several people I spoke to at @media who were very positive about the new sectioning elements
  5. # [00:23] * gsnedders always wonders who actually does the marking
  6. # [00:24] <Philip`> Probably Googlebot
  7. # [00:24] <gsnedders> Ah. That makes sense.
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  9. # [00:42] <Hixie> hsivonen: re EBCDIC, yeah, maybe you're right... Ask the lists and the blog if anyone is using it?
  10. # [00:42] <gsnedders> Hixie: Can't you look in the Google Cache for the usage of charsets?
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  24. # [01:02] <gsnedders> I guess I'm failing to blog anything this month
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  26. # [01:10] <Philip`> gsnedders: You can always fake the timestamp when you post
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  31. # [02:26] <Hixie> gsnedders: not easily, we normalise everything for our sanity's sake
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  81. # [10:48] <gsnedders> Philip`: That's cheating!
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  85. # [10:58] <__est__> Hi, everyone
  86. # [10:59] <__est__> is there any multiple-file upload spec in HTML5 ?
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  89. # [11:04] <Hixie> __est__: yes, see http://whatwg.org/wf2
  90. # [11:05] <gsnedders> "There is currently no way to specify that an unlimited number of files may be uploaded. Authors are encouraged to consider what the practical limit actually is for their server-side script. For example, if the server uses an unsigned 16 bit integer to track file uploads, a suitable max value would be 65536."
  91. # [11:05] * gsnedders places bet PHP would get a buffer overflow in that case
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  107. # [11:50] <hsivonen> http://www.einfach-fuer-alle.de/blog/eintraege.php?id=2393_0_1_0
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  117. # [12:22] <hsivonen> http://flickr.com/photos/92649225@N00/2487550812/ did he actually have that slide or is that a photoshopped criticism?
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  119. # [12:43] <Hixie> hsivonen: yes: http://homepage.mac.com/swardley/.Public/openE20.pdf
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  121. # [12:50] <hsivonen> Hixie: oh. OK. I came into the room late. But then he wasn't using Comic Sans but Chalkboard
  122. # [12:50] <Hixie> i have no idea what talk this is
  123. # [12:50] <Hixie> i just did a search for his name and the font name and found the slides
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  144. # [16:29] <Philip`> Could anyone test http://philip.html5.org/demos/charset/ebcdic/charsets.html in Safari on OS X?
  145. # [16:31] <gsnedders> Philip`: http://stuff.gsnedders.com/EBCDIC%20decoding%20tests.pdf
  146. # [16:31] <hsivonen> Philip`: ouch. looks like Safari doesn't blacklist ICU EBCDIC decoders
  147. # [16:33] <Philip`> gsnedders: Thanks, looks about the same as on Windows
  148. # [16:34] <Philip`> IE decodes many of those as EBCDIC-or-something
  149. # [16:36] <hsivonen> still, Firefox and Opera getting away with not supporting EBCDIC encodings suggests that they aren't hugely Web-relevant
  150. # [16:36] <Philip`> (These are all the names and aliases from http://www.iana.org/assignments/character-sets that have "ebcdic" as one of their other aliases)
  151. # [16:36] <Philip`> (*have something containing case-insensitively "ebcdic")
  152. # [16:37] <hsivonen> hmm. it's quite silly that in this day and age, Windows XP stops to ask to install language packs instead of installing everything there is to install by default
  153. # [16:37] <Philip`> In this day and age, you would use Vista, which seems to include gigabytes of everything by default
  154. # [16:38] <takkaria> it is seven years old, yeah
  155. # [16:38] <Philip`> Hmm, how do I remove iframe borders in IE?
  156. # [16:40] <myakura> <iframe frameborder="0"> ?
  157. # [16:41] <myakura> probably
  158. # [16:41] <Philip`> Hmm, not exactly valid HTML5, but it seems to work so that's okay :-)
  159. # [16:42] <hsivonen> I'd be happy to make <iframe frameborder="0"> valid if Hixie agreed
  160. # [16:43] <Philip`> By the way, it'd be great if IE supported data:text/html so I didn't have to create almost two hundred identical HTML files and five hundred lines of .htaccess :-(
  161. # [16:46] * Philip` wonders how efficiently Apache processes .htaccess
  162. # [16:48] <Philip`> hsivonen: Should I bother replying to your EBCDIC email, or will you post a followup anyway?
  163. # [16:49] <hsivonen> Philip`: I can reply to myself
  164. # [16:49] <hsivonen> Philip`: thanks
  165. # [16:56] <Dashiva> Philip`: You couldn't use a server script with get parameters to generate the variable response?
  166. # [16:57] <Philip`> Dashiva: I don't fancy running almost two hundred CGI processes every time someone looks at the page
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  168. # [17:06] <Philip`> http://fortuneapple20.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/picture-24.jpg - I like how a drop from 0.04% to 0.03% is stated as a change of -25.00% with four significant figures
  169. # [17:08] <Dashiva> It's always nice with percentages and percentages of percentages using the same labeling
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  171. # [17:10] <Philip`> Since the numbers are apparently based on 1.6e8 visitors, that 25.00% would indicate their numbers are correct to the nearest 20 visitors
  172. # [17:11] * Philip` thinks this is a case where it would far less misleading to show a graph of the past six months or so, so it's easier to see what's a significant change and what's random monthly variation
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  174. # [17:28] <takkaria> why do people make images of tables rather than just making tables?
  175. # [17:32] <hsivonen> takkaria: to have a tableless layout? :-)
  176. # [17:38] * gsnedders admits to once having <div> hell to avoid using tables
  177. # [17:38] <gsnedders> (for tabular data, this is)
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  179. # [18:08] * gsnedders wonders how on earth to start his personal statement
  180. # [18:08] <gsnedders> I don't think "gsnedders is awesome." would be a good start.
  181. # [18:09] <hsivonen> what's a personal statement?
  182. # [18:09] <gsnedders> hsivonen: http://www.ucas.co.uk/students/startapplication/apply/personalstatement
  183. # [18:09] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Basically, it's what unis that don't have interviews have to go by as well as your grades and reference from school about whether to choose you
  184. # [18:10] <hsivonen> I see
  185. # [18:10] <gsnedders> "You will not be able to change the presentation of your personal statement by using features such as bold, italic or underlined text or foreign characters, such as á, ë, õ." — you mean I can't use an em-dash!?
  186. # [18:10] <hsivonen> fortunately, I didn't have to do any of that
  187. # [18:10] <gsnedders> (because I expect it implicitly is limited to US-ASCII characters)
  188. # [18:10] <gsnedders> It also means I can't use words like café or naïve
  189. # [18:11] <takkaria> lies, you just use the English spelling. :)
  190. # [18:11] <takkaria> personal statements are an arse, I remember spending hours and hours on mine
  191. # [18:11] <gsnedders> takkaria: They are perfectly correct English spellings!
  192. # [18:11] <gsnedders> I'm just an asshole!
  193. # [18:12] <takkaria> yes, but so are cafe and naive. :)
  194. # [18:12] <gsnedders> (Or, more seriously, I have suspicions I have asperger syndrome)
  195. # [18:13] <takkaria> the secret can't be to make yourself sound good without sounding like you're trying to make yourself sound good, because most people's statements I've read almost manage the first and fail the second
  196. # [18:13] <gsnedders> (I should probably get formally checked for it)
  197. # [18:15] <deltab> they make you apply online now? I had to handwrite mine
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  200. # [18:15] <gsnedders> takkaria: I wouldn't even bother trying to not make myself sound like I'm selling myself
  201. # [18:16] <gsnedders> deltab: Yeah — it's obviously changed quite recently
  202. # [18:16] <hsivonen> in Finland for engineering disciplines, they don't care about personality. they just care about test scores in math and physics
  203. # [18:16] <gsnedders> I still can't think of how to start it…
  204. # [18:16] <gsnedders> Hmm…
  205. # [18:17] <gsnedders> Now, do I write in en-gb-oed or more normal en-gb?
  206. # [18:29] <Philip`> gsnedders: Start with "I have been using computers since I was little and I am good at them."
  207. # [18:29] <gsnedders> heh.
  208. # [18:31] <gsnedders> Currently I'm going for the not-trying-to-sound-modest-whatsoever approach
  209. # [18:32] <gsnedders> I'm starting to think 4000 characters inc. spaces is rather limiting.
  210. # [18:33] <takkaria> yeah, heavy editing is required
  211. # [18:33] <takkaria> especially when you've done something worthwhile :)
  212. # [18:33] <gsnedders> I always over-edit everything I write
  213. # [18:33] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  214. # [18:33] <gsnedders> It wouldn't be unusual for nothing from my first draft to be in the final copy :P
  215. # [18:34] <gsnedders> takkaria: I also have the fun of trying to have one personal statement cover two subjects
  216. # [18:35] <takkaria> yeah, that's no fun, I tried to do that between music and CS before I switched to just music
  217. # [18:35] <Philip`> gsnedders: Just talk about maths, and then you'll cover all the relevant subjects :-)
  218. # [18:35] <gsnedders> Well, at least CS and Physics are more similar :P
  219. # [18:35] <gsnedders> Philip`: I'd suck at that.
  220. # [18:35] <takkaria> yeah, half of it would be totally alien to the other
  221. # [18:36] <Philip`> CS and physics could be considered as just branches of applied maths :-)
  222. # [18:36] <gsnedders> I expect it'll end up more about computing than physics, though
  223. # [18:36] * Joins: MacDome (n=eric@c-67-180-49-110.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  224. # [18:36] <gsnedders> as I can write about computing far more easily :P
  225. # [18:37] <hsivonen> interesting. Philip's EBCDIC demo behaves differently in Firefox 3 RC1 upon first load and back button
  226. # [18:37] <hsivonen> (first load the unknowns are 1252, on back button utf-8)
  227. # [18:38] <Philip`> deltab: If I remember correctly, when I did it ~4 years ago there was a choice between online and offline (so I did it online)
  228. # [18:42] * Quits: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  229. # [18:43] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  230. # [18:43] <gsnedders> This is really hard. :P
  231. # [18:44] <Philip`> Don't worry, only your entire future depends on what you write in the personal statement
  232. # [18:44] <gsnedders> :P
  233. # [18:45] <gsnedders> I need to see if I can use the same personal statement for '08 and '09 applications, assuming I put in a late application for this year…
  234. # [18:46] <takkaria> I'm less than convinced of how much it makes a difference at the moment. if the uni you apply to is expanding then they will look at your grades more than anything else
  235. # [18:46] <takkaria> and most unis are hoping to expand because the only way they can get more money thesedays is by getting more students in the doors...
  236. # [18:47] <takkaria> gsnedders: if you come to an English uni, do you have to pay fees?
  237. # [18:47] <gsnedders> takkaria: Yes
  238. # [18:47] <gsnedders> takkaria: Actually no, I get my parents to pay them :P
  239. # [18:47] <takkaria> oh, really? lucky
  240. # [18:47] <gsnedders> Yeah, very much so
  241. # [18:47] <gsnedders> http://www.sra.ed.ac.uk/admissions/Statistics/2007-08_entry/Programme2007/degree_programme_public_version/37.htm
  242. # [18:47] <hsivonen> English as in not Scottish?
  243. # [18:47] <gsnedders> F355 has so many applications!
  244. # [18:48] <gsnedders> hsivonen: English as in the country England, south of Scotland and east of Wales :P
  245. # [18:48] <gsnedders> and not Northern Ireland either, seeming that's also the UK
  246. # [18:48] <gsnedders> I mean, it has so few applications per year I may as well not even write a personal statement
  247. # [18:48] <jwalden> modesty is absolutely not a virtue in college apps, at least in the US
  248. # [18:49] <hsivonen> gsnedders: my point is, are the fees different if your original place of residence and the location of the uni are different in the set {Scotland, Wales, England, Northern Ireland}?
  249. # [18:49] <takkaria> hsivonen: basically, Scots don't pay fees to go to Scottish universities
  250. # [18:49] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Scottish unis are free for any EU resident, apart from those within the UK outwith of Scotland (this is due to a crazy mix of UK, Scottish, and EU law)
  251. # [18:49] <hsivonen> ok
  252. # [18:50] <gsnedders> (In short, the Scottish Parliament doesn't have the power to make it free to those in England, Wales, and N Ireland, as the power for that is in Westminster, but due to EU equality laws, those from other EU states must be treated the same as the Scottish)
  253. # [18:51] <hsivonen> hmmkay
  254. # [18:51] <gsnedders> It's rather mad, but that's life
  255. # [18:51] <gsnedders> My first draft of opening paragraph for the personal statement is 874 characters long. Eek.
  256. # [18:51] <Philip`> I had to pay tuition fees in my last year (since that's when they introduced the new system), which was some thousands of pounds (though I've forgotten how few/many thousands), but I got something equivalent to the mostly-interest-free pay-back-when-you're-rich student loan to cover that so it wasn't a problem
  257. # [18:52] <hsivonen> are the English universities so much better that it's worth paying for (compared to going to a Scottish university)?
  258. # [18:53] <Philip`> (That does mean I now owe something like £14,000 to the Student Loan Company, but I'm too poor to have to pay anything back now)
  259. # [18:53] <gsnedders> Philip`: £3,145 per year
  260. # [18:53] <gsnedders> hsivonen: It depends on the subject
  261. # [18:54] <gsnedders> hsivonen: For physics, Edinburgh is the best in the UK
  262. # [18:54] <takkaria> gsnedders: more likely to be £3000, since it's gone up every year
  263. # [18:54] <gsnedders> hsivonen: For CS, it's Oxford or Cambridge
  264. # [18:54] * gsnedders shrugs
  265. # [18:54] <Philip`> Bah, Oxford's rubbish :-p
  266. # [18:54] <hsivonen> (aside, I'm not sure the EU tuition equality laws are a good idea. it seems unfair that tax payers from country X pay for the tuition of foreign students from country Y)
  267. # [18:55] <hsivonen> (especially if the solution is to make students from country X pay, too)
  268. # [18:55] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Students from country X don't pay, though, otherwise there'd be no need for the equality laws to kick in about students from Y
  269. # [18:56] <hsivonen> gsnedders: Finns don't pay currently in Finland (except in the form of a high tax rate)
  270. # [18:56] <hsivonen> gsnedders: but there have been suggestions of introducing tuition fees both for Finns and foreign students
  271. # [18:56] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Here (in St Andrews) most of the foreign students are from east Asia, and therefore are outside the EU, and have to pay tuition fees
  272. # [18:56] <takkaria> and extortionate ones at that
  273. # [18:57] * gsnedders wants to get the hell away from here, though
  274. # [18:57] <gsnedders> Philip`: Hey! My parents went there!
  275. # [18:57] <gsnedders> My family is so mixed between Oxford and Cambridge, including some who taught at both, or went to one and taught at the other :P
  276. # [18:58] <Philip`> gsnedders: One of mine did too, so I think she would disagree with me :-)
  277. # [18:58] <gsnedders> I hate Oxford as a place though. I could never stand to be there for several years :P
  278. # [18:59] <hsivonen> Finland has crazy laws. Foreign students get free education, but when they graduate, they are kicked out of the country and, thus, don't contribute to taxes
  279. # [19:14] * Quits: MacDome (n=eric@c-67-180-49-110.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  280. # [19:15] <gsnedders> sanity is scare nowadays :)
  281. # [19:22] <Philip`> Perhaps it's just hard to recognise
  282. # [19:31] <takkaria> sanity is a social construct
  283. # [19:38] * Joins: htmlfivedotnet (n=dcostali@c-67-162-99-121.hsd1.il.comcast.net)
  284. # [19:38] * Parts: htmlfivedotnet (n=dcostali@c-67-162-99-121.hsd1.il.comcast.net)
  285. # [19:42] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-fa1e1b64c5881a66)
  286. # [19:49] * jgraham notes that the UK has a much lower for sounding like an arrogant twat than the US
  287. # [19:49] <jgraham> (at least that's the impression I get.)
  288. # [19:50] <Philip`> jgraham: Are you missing a word like "tolerance"?
  289. # [19:50] <jgraham> (and whilst your personal statement should be positive you also don't want to come across as an arrogant twat.)
  290. # [19:50] * Quits: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  291. # [19:51] <jgraham> Philip`: In fact the word I planned to use but forgot to type was "threshold" although "cultural threshold" would have been better
  292. # [19:51] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  293. # [19:51] <Philip`> jgraham: But you're competing against other people who are probably going to be writing arrogant statements, so you just want to seem less arrogant than them
  294. # [19:52] <Philip`> and you're writing to an audience who expects you to try hard to convince them of how wonderful you are
  295. # [19:52] <jgraham> You have to sound like you've achieved stuff, but you shouldn't sound like you believe you're better than other people or that you have a right to a place
  296. # [19:53] <jgraham> I did a Cambridge Access thing once where we read some personal statements from people who had and hadn't got offers and guessed who'd got places
  297. # [19:54] <jgraham> The person who sounded arrogant was one of the people who didn't get an offer
  298. # [19:55] <jgraham> (but I agree you have to write in a way that will convince them of your merits and put yourself into the best possible light. But if you overstep the threshold then it can have a negative impact)
  299. # [19:57] <Philip`> Did all those people have interviews anyway? I imagine personality is much more important at that stage, since the interviewers can get a much better impression from meeting you than from reading a few highly artificial paragraphs
  300. # [19:57] <jgraham> Yeah. At Cambridge it's really unusual to not get an interview
  301. # [19:58] <jgraham> (but of course for non-interviewing universities the situation is different)
  302. # [20:01] <jgraham> For clarity I should say that when I say "you shouldn't sound like you believe you're better than other people", that just means you shouldn't come across as contemptuous of others. You have to give the impression that you are deserving of a place.
  303. # [20:03] * jgraham isn't sure he has been at all clear but is sure gsnedders will come up with something good anyway
  304. # [20:05] * gsnedders will likely follow the advice of some students he knows here which is to get some people who know you well to look over it
  305. # [20:05] <Philip`> Put it on a wiki
  306. # [20:06] <gsnedders> Philip`: What's the point, though? It would have to be only edited by me
  307. # [20:06] <Philip`> gsnedders: Put it on a wiki and get some people who know you well to rewrite it for you
  308. # [20:06] <gsnedders> Philip`: You can't do that :P
  309. # [20:07] <Philip`> Nobody would know
  310. # [20:07] <gsnedders> I mean, this isn't a logged channel or anything :)
  311. # [20:07] <gsnedders> And in terms of what I can write to try and get me in a place in something like CS, I think you two probably know me quite well :P
  312. # [20:08] <jgraham> Put it on wikipedia as an entry for yourself
  313. # [20:08] <jgraham> Then submit the vandilised version
  314. # [20:09] <gsnedders> hah
  315. # [20:17] <takkaria> I was very tempted to write mine as a critique of Rachmaninov's Third Piano Concerto, but it turns out I'm a bit risk-averse for that
  316. # [21:55] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  317. # [22:03] <Lachy> hey everyone, I'm back from London now
  318. # [22:05] * Philip` wishes the IE8 feedback site didn't take ten seconds to load each page, because it's really quite painful to use
  319. # [22:05] <Philip`> Lachy: Hello
  320. # [22:10] <Lachy> has there been anything interesting on public-html over the past few days?
  321. # [22:11] <Philip`> No, if I remember correctly
  322. # [22:12] <takkaria> not really; a bit of stuff on Namespaces, a bit more on the ARIA thing, and RB's dozen raised issues
  323. # [22:12] <Lachy> ok, that's about what I expected.
  324. # [22:12] <gsnedders> Nobody has posted, "Who's that guy with crazy hair?", either.
  325. # [22:12] <Lachy> I suppose I should at least skim over the ~150 messages quickly though
  326. # [22:13] <Lachy> gsnedders, that's because I said your name in the presentation and we talked about how you had contributed to the group.
  327. # [22:13] <gsnedders> Lachy: Ah.
  328. # [22:14] <gsnedders> Lachy: Wait… what contributions?
  329. # [22:14] <Lachy> jgraham mentioned that you had made some test cases
  330. # [22:14] <gsnedders> That's true
  331. # [22:14] <gsnedders> They're out of date, in part, now.
  332. # [22:14] <gsnedders> Damned Hixie fixing the spec.
  333. # [22:14] <Lachy> plus you hang out here and keep us entertained
  334. # [22:14] <Philip`> You provide moral support
  335. # [22:15] <gsnedders> Lachy: True, I don't do sensible.
  336. # [22:15] <gsnedders> (Actually, I ended up in a discussion about me being sensible with a friend on Friday: his conclusion: "You're sensible between 16:00 and 17:00 on a Tuesday when nobody is around to see you")
  337. # [22:17] * gsnedders laughs at the penultimate part of Lachy tweet
  338. # [22:17] * gsnedders runs in fear
  339. # [22:18] <Lachy> gsnedders, do you mean the part about hooking up with a hot chick?
  340. # [22:18] <gsnedders> Lachy: Well, this is the penultimate phrase, so I guess I do
  341. # [22:19] <gsnedders> s/this/that/
  342. # [22:19] * Joins: Oggu (n=oscar@1-1-5-40a.gtd.gbg.bostream.se)
  343. # [22:20] * Quits: itpastor1 (n=itpastor@139.57.227.87.static.th.siw.siwnet.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  344. # [22:21] * Joins: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  345. # [22:22] <Lachy> Hey, my standards suck interview has been published http://standardssuck.org/lachlan-hunt-on-selectors-api
  346. # [22:22] <hsivonen> how's Heathrow these days?
  347. # [22:22] <Lachy> hsivonen, don't know. I arrived at Gatwick and departed from Stansted
  348. # [22:23] <hsivonen> ah
  349. # [22:24] <gsnedders> Lachy: You sensible man :)
  350. # [22:24] <Lachy> but checkin and security at Stansted today took a long time. I arrived at around 16:00 and didn't get to the plane until 17:00, which departed 5 minutes later. I didn't even have a chance to do duty free shopping there
  351. # [22:25] <Lachy> I wanted to buy some cadbury chocolate, but didn't get a chance cause I had to run to the gate. :-(
  352. # [22:25] <gsnedders> Lachy: was it a 17:05 flight or not?
  353. # [22:25] <Lachy> yes
  354. # [22:25] * Joins: roc (n=roc@222-154-9-47.jetstream.xtra.co.nz)
  355. # [22:26] <gsnedders> Lachy: Ah. I'd arrive earlier :)
  356. # [22:26] * gsnedders is flying from there to Berlin next month
  357. # [22:26] <Lachy> part of the problem was that the person at the check in counter for the line I was in was really slow
  358. # [22:36] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  359. # [22:39] <gsnedders> I really can't write about physics.
  360. # [22:40] <Philip`> "I enjoy rolling balls down slopes, and counting pendulum swings."
  361. # [22:40] <gsnedders> Nonono, this is computational physics!
  362. # [22:40] <gsnedders> "I enjoy simulating rolling balls down slopes, and automatically counting pendulum swings."
  363. # [22:42] <Philip`> "I enjoy maths" is always a good one
  364. # [22:42] <gsnedders> But that so isn't true :P
  365. # [22:42] <gsnedders> I enjoy solving mathematical problems!
  366. # [22:43] <gsnedders> (Subtle differences ftw!)
  367. # [22:43] <Philip`> I enjoy solving mathematical problems by totally ignoring the maths and brute-forcing a solution with a Perl script
  368. # [22:43] <gsnedders> :D
  369. # [22:45] <Philip`> It's pretty useful for probability questions - if you have something like the Monty Hall problem, just simulate it a million times and count the outcomes
  370. # [22:59] <takkaria> that has a special name
  371. # [22:59] <takkaria> I forget what it is
  372. # [23:00] <Philip`> Monte Carlo?
  373. # [23:00] <takkaria> yeah. like Monty Hall but subtly different
  374. # [23:01] * gsnedders was talking about going to Monte Carlo with molly in October
  375. # [23:01] <Philip`> I'm not sure it's mathematically rigorous to run a Perl simulation and observe that something happens in 0.33295653149 of cases and is therefore precisely equal to 1/3 using the principle that the real world likes nice fractions
  376. # [23:01] <gsnedders> (I will likely be at the TP in Mandelieu if there's an HTML WG meeting there, FWIW)
  377. # [23:01] <takkaria> yeah, but it's close enough
  378. # [23:02] <takkaria> I used to try to build statistical models for a game I maintain to get game balance right
  379. # [23:02] <takkaria> then I gave up and just reran things a few hundred thousand times and took the average
  380. # [23:02] <takkaria> the latter was much easier than the former and required less work. :)
  381. # [23:03] * Quits: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  382. # [23:04] <takkaria> also made my laptop run a lot warmer, but that's something I just have to deal with...
  383. # [23:04] <gsnedders> takkaria: cool.
  384. # [23:04] <gsnedders> </bad_joke>
  385. # [23:08] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@77.163.243.203)
  386. # [23:18] * Quits: Oggu (n=oscar@1-1-5-40a.gtd.gbg.bostream.se) (Remote closed the connection)
  387. # [23:21] <annevk> Hixie, contenteditable= also makes an element focusable
  388. # [23:21] <annevk> Hixie, I suppose that draggable might do that too
  389. # [23:22] <annevk> I should probably e-mail, but I feel rather lazy
  390. # [23:29] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  391. # [23:40] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/demos/charset/ebcdic/meta.html - IE(8b1) flips between decoding as cp037 and utf-8 each time I hit the reload button
  392. # [23:42] <othermaciej> notdeterministic charset encoding detection
  393. # [23:42] <othermaciej> yum
  394. # [23:43] <Philip`> It's not nondeterministic - it's (page_reloads % 2 == 0 ? 'cp037' : 'utf-8')
  395. # [23:45] <hsivonen> Firefox flips between windows-1252 and utf-8 on back button
  396. # [23:48] * Philip` guesses it's not worthwhile to report this IE bug
  397. # [23:57] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  398. # [23:58] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  399. # Session Close: Mon Jun 02 00:00:00 2008

The end :)