/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-06-04 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jun 04 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] <annevk> Philip`, that should be fixable too without too much trouble, no?
  4. # [00:01] <annevk> Philip`, given that the file names are based on id= too
  5. # [00:02] <Philip`> annevk: Hmm... I suppose if I knew when it was 404, then I could do that
  6. # [00:03] <Philip`> Hixie: Would it be possible to change to <body onload="fixBrokenLink(404)"> ?
  7. # [00:03] * Quits: phsiao (n=shawn@nat/ibm/x-b493ee6662ff902f)
  8. # [00:06] <Philip`> Hixie: (By the way, I've added the do-pubrules-update call now)
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  12. # [00:21] * annevk adds <p> and </p> to his blog entry
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  18. # [00:39] <annevk> ARIA expressed in CSS? Hmm. I guess I better not reply to that as I might offend someone...
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  32. # [03:11] <Hixie> Philip`: added 404
  33. # [03:11] <Philip`> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc288325(VS.85).aspx - IE=EmulateIE7 looks new
  34. # [03:12] <Philip`> Hixie: Thanks, though I guess that means I need to update my script instead of going to sleep :-p
  35. # [03:12] <Hixie> heh
  36. # [03:12] <Hixie> no rush
  37. # [03:12] <Hixie> you can trigger an update now anyway
  38. # [03:12] <Hixie> just run your script
  39. # [03:12] <Hixie> and it'll all work
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  41. # [03:29] <Hixie> ok wow. data-* is awesome.
  42. # [03:29] <Hixie> it's been the answer to almost every single question people have asked me about in the last week here at google.
  43. # [03:30] <othermaciej> it's pretty cool, indeed
  44. # [03:30] <othermaciej> on my list of top 5 HTML5 things that I wish were already in WebKit
  45. # [03:31] <Hixie> it is already in webkit :-)
  46. # [03:31] <Hixie> well, not the .dataSet thing
  47. # [03:31] <Hixie> or .dataset
  48. # [03:31] <Hixie> or whatever
  49. # [03:31] <Hixie> but that's not a big deal
  50. # [03:31] <Hixie> people can use getAttribute() for now
  51. # [03:31] <Hixie> .dataset is just extra sugary goodness
  52. # [03:31] <othermaciej> well ok the dataset part is the part I wish were there
  53. # [03:31] <othermaciej> but sure
  54. # [03:31] <othermaciej> (the other sugary API I really want is classList)
  55. # [03:33] <Hixie> oooh yeah that's nice too
  56. # [03:34] <Philip`> Hixie: I guess none of those people asked a question like "how can I do X, without relying on scripting"?
  57. # [03:35] <othermaciej> that doesn; sound like a very googley consideration
  58. # [03:35] <othermaciej> *doesn't
  59. # [03:36] <Hixie> indeed!
  60. # [03:36] <Hixie> most of the question are "so i have this script that needs to get information X, how do i include it in the markup?"
  61. # [03:37] <othermaciej> the web is an application platform
  62. # [03:37] <Hixie> now it is
  63. # [03:37] <othermaciej> I admire the holdouts who would like to still think of it as a document-oriented hypertext system for their tenacity
  64. # [03:37] <othermaciej> but the race is over
  65. # [03:37] <othermaciej> and it's about time they concede
  66. # [03:39] <Philip`> data-* is like RDF, minus all the bits about types and validation and URIs and namespaces and theoretical basis
  67. # [03:41] <Philip`> It seems to be applicable to any problem of the form "I want to do stuff with data"
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  69. # [03:43] <Hixie> not all of them, but many, yes
  70. # [03:43] <Hixie> gotta go, bbl
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  72. # [04:15] <Philip`> Hixie: "you can trigger an update now anyway [...] just run your script [...] and it'll all work" - is it meant to be really slow (like more than ten minutes)?
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  78. # [04:46] <MikeSmith> Philip`: btw, did you update your multipage-generator script yet?
  79. # [04:47] <MikeSmith> I'd like to use it for this WD publication if possible
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  87. # [06:44] * hsivonen mumbles something about using Jython and the V.nu parser to get a faster spec gen and running it as a Web service in a memory-resident servlet container to avoid JVM startup delay
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  96. # [08:02] <Hixie> wow, go MikeSmith
  97. # [08:02] <Hixie> finally someone taking the authority to clean up the trolls in public-html
  98. # [08:02] <Hixie> MikeSmith: he did, and it's running already
  99. # [08:03] <Hixie> MikeSmith: he gave a url for where to see the files generated by it
  100. # [08:04] <Hixie> it's in the logs somewhere :-)
  101. # [08:04] <Hixie> Philip`: it should work in seconds
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  106. # [08:22] <hsivonen> Hixie: do you have plans wrt. complex ruby?
  107. # [08:34] <Hixie> not really
  108. # [08:34] <Hixie> i'm sure it's very important to some users
  109. # [08:34] <Hixie> just like, say, explicit poetry markup
  110. # [08:35] <hsivonen> ok. I take it that implementing ruby parsing still carries an above-normal risk
  111. # [08:35] <hsivonen> but not too high a risk I guess
  112. # [08:36] <Hixie> i have no plans to change it, though of course that might change when i look more carefully at the feedback we got
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  114. # [08:37] <hsivonen> I zapped UTF-32 from Validator.nu
  115. # [08:38] <Hixie> cool
  116. # [08:38] <hsivonen> unsupported encoding count as document errors, although for theoretical purity, they probably should count as non-document-errors
  117. # [08:39] <hsivonen> It's amazing how much trouble encoding proliferation causes implementation-wise even when the decoders are available off the shelf
  118. # [08:40] <hsivonen> (the UTF-32 code path had some issues even though the decoder was an off-the-shelf library decoder)
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  120. # [08:53] <heycam> Hixie, you have a couple of references to [DOM3VIEWS], but i think these should be [DOM2VIEWS]
  121. # [08:54] <heycam> dom 3 views seems to be pretty different
  122. # [08:54] <heycam> it claims to "[build] on the Document Object Model Views Level 2", but that doesn't really seem to be the case
  123. # [09:04] <Hixie> if you care a lot about this, e-mail me
  124. # [09:04] <Hixie> in general, i plan to go through all the references several years from now
  125. # [09:04] <Hixie> just before LC
  126. # [09:04] <Hixie> well, several months
  127. # [09:04] <Hixie> maybe not years
  128. # [09:04] <heycam> ok, i don't care that much, was just a small thing i noticed
  129. # [09:05] <Hixie> cool
  130. # [09:05] <Hixie> thanks for mentioning it
  131. # [09:05] <heycam> but a quick :%s/DOM3VIEWS/DOM2VIEWS/g should fix it ;)
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  136. # [09:27] <MikeSmith> Hixie: about Philip` script, thanks
  137. # [09:27] <MikeSmith> will go back through logs when I got time
  138. # [09:30] <hsivonen> hmm. contrived mislabeled bogus UTF-16 test cases indeed cause ungraceful errors...
  139. # [09:31] <hsivonen> I don't know how to fix with hindering authors from locating stray \0 bytes in 8 bit data
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  141. # [09:35] <hsivonen> s/with/without/
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  144. # [10:12] <annevk> http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roc/archives/2008/06/applying_svg_ef.html
  145. # [10:12] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Jun/0003.html
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  152. # [10:27] <annevk> hsivonen, "<event-source> in <head> is XHTML-only"
  153. # [10:27] <annevk> that's not true
  154. # [10:28] <annevk> it's just that new elements haven't been integrated in the parser yet
  155. # [10:28] <annevk> (not sure about <command>, but the idea for <event-source> is to make it work in <head>)
  156. # [10:28] <hsivonen> annevk: ah.
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  158. # [10:29] <hsivonen> it would be good to figure out the parsing of the new elements sooner than later
  159. # [10:29] <hsivonen> especially if browsers start implementing the elements as bolt-ons to existing parsers
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  161. # [10:30] <annevk> yeah, and if browsers implement HTML5 parsing they might as well get the parsing right for the new elements
  162. # [10:30] <annevk> shouldn't be a big deal if the elements don't do anything yet
  163. # [10:30] <hsivonen> it would be good to make the new sectioning elements report themselves to AT ASAP
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  176. # [10:48] <hsivonen> oh. great. according to the IANA, image/svg+xml still does not exist
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  178. # [10:52] <hsivonen> lots and lots of other +xml types in the registry these days
  179. # [10:54] <annevk> I'm not sure if there's any benefit to image/svg+xml or any XML media type intended for Web browsers
  180. # [10:55] <annevk> It seems that using text/xml, application/xml, and */*+xml and dispatching on namespaces works just fine
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  183. # [11:26] <annevk> Ah, the TAG is informed about data-*
  184. # [11:27] <othermaciej> are they hopping mad?
  185. # [11:27] <annevk> not yet, but they might
  186. # [11:28] <annevk> It seems that Julian forgot to mention dataset though which would not really work well with arbitrary namespaces
  187. # [11:46] * hsivonen rereads http://www.flightlab.com/~joe/sgml/sanity.txt
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  191. # [12:00] <annevk> I actually thought that xmlns:x="" in XML 1.1 meant to assign the no namespace to the x prefix. Apparently this is not exactly true.
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  193. # [12:01] <annevk> Hmm, Opera now treats <test xmlns:x=""/> as a fatal error in both XML 1.0 and XML 1.1
  194. # [12:02] <annevk> Oh well, with XML 1.0 (5ed) XML 1.1 becomes obsolete and we can fix this somehow.
  195. # [12:03] <hsivonen> XML 1.0 5th ed. is a bad idea too
  196. # [12:03] <hsivonen> According to John Cowan, it's about justice
  197. # [12:04] <MikeSmith> I was going to say that the TAG already was informed about data-* if they had read the "areas that are introducing major architectural features" message at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008May/0087.html
  198. # [12:04] <annevk> It's a first step in the right direction
  199. # [12:04] <MikeSmith> ..but I see now that that data-* attributes and dataset were not mentioned at all in that
  200. # [12:04] <hsivonen> but when nations smaller than China have the choice of minting XML tags in their own language, it is still in their best interest to mint them in ASCII-based ENglish
  201. # [12:04] <annevk> MikeSmith, I suppose it's debatable whether it's architectural
  202. # [12:05] <MikeSmith> yeah
  203. # [12:05] <MikeSmith> anyway, I think there were other previous messages to the TAG list that mentioned data-*
  204. # [12:05] <hsivonen> so XML 1.0 5th ed. will be a lot of grief in order to give Cambodians, etc. the same freedom of choice Europeans have not to use native-language tags
  205. # [12:08] <annevk> It also makes increemental improvements to XML 1.0 acceptable, which seems like a huge win
  206. # [12:09] <hsivonen> annevk: I think going through the pain n many increments is not a good idea in the context of Draconian error handling
  207. # [12:11] <hsivonen> I'm sure native English speakers who advocate justice in XML element names are well-meaning, but effectively they are still suggesting that foreigners lock their data formats into national languages and not come compete in the global software market
  208. # [12:12] <annevk> I don't think that's the major win with XML 1.0 5ed
  209. # [12:12] <hsivonen> annevk: that's the stated win
  210. # [12:12] <annevk> (That it matches XML5 is nice though.)
  211. # [12:13] <annevk> hsivonen, if that's what it takes to get improvements to XML going, fine with me :)
  212. # [12:13] <hsivonen> annevk: umm. 5th ed. still makes arbitrary restrictions on Name characters
  213. # [12:13] <hsivonen> they change it but still not all the way
  214. # [12:13] <annevk> ok
  215. # [12:19] <annevk> anyway, we'll see what happens with that in due course
  216. # [12:20] <hsivonen> I had a lengthy politically-incorrect blog post drafted about 5th ed, but I got distracted
  217. # [12:23] <hsivonen> are HTML 4.01 MultiLengths actually supported on table columns in browsers: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/types.html#h-6.6
  218. # [12:31] * annevk finds more Mozilla <canvas> extensions in https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=430906
  219. # [12:33] <hsivonen> does it count as a distributed extension?
  220. # [12:35] <annevk> what is that?
  221. # [12:36] <hsivonen> an instance of exercising distributed extensibility
  222. # [12:36] <annevk> I guess not, it seems to be a new DOM attribute called mozOpaque
  223. # [12:37] <annevk> I don't think distributed extensibility works for the DOM
  224. # [12:37] <hsivonen> but moz is effectively a namespace prefix
  225. # [12:37] <annevk> effectively it's a short namespace
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  227. # [12:58] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008Jun/ :o
  228. # [13:13] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I backported area shape datatypes and others to HTML 4.01 / XHTML 1.0. thanks
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  230. # [13:21] * takkaria sighs at RB
  231. # [13:22] <takkaria> the reason I stop replying to him is just because it's not worth my time to try and clarify things to, not because I'm hostile towards him personally
  232. # [13:24] <annevk> I'm not sure why he's so hung up on his example. It seems pretty clear that any change increases implementation complexity. But then he believes it has zero implementation cost so maybe that's why...
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  236. # [13:45] <zcorpan> hsivonen: cool
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  240. # [14:00] <Philip`> Whoops, I should have woken up four hours ago
  241. # [14:00] <Philip`> MikeSmith: http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/wa1/multipage-w3c/Overview.html is the new spec-splitter output
  242. # [14:00] <MikeSmith> Philip`: good morning and thanks :)
  243. # [14:01] <Philip`> MikeSmith: It's far from morning now :-(
  244. # [14:02] <MikeSmith> when you get up, that's morning
  245. # [14:03] <MikeSmith> in Japan, people who work in bars and clubs and other food-service jobs always say "Ohayo" or "Ohayo gozaimasu" (good morning) to greet each other, regardless of what time of day (or night) it actually is.
  246. # [14:05] * Quits: qwert666 (n=qwert666@dba138.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) ("Leaving")
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  249. # [14:11] <Philip`> Hmm, the multipage spec heading seem okay in IE6 (though with bad layout) and fine in IE8, so it's just IE7 that fails to draw the headings
  250. # [14:12] <Philip`> (or, rather, draws them behind the green box, I guess)
  251. # [14:22] <jgraham> I wonder if I should try to point out to Rob Burns that taking up everyone else's time is irritating and antisocial. I think I shouldn't because I don't think I would succeed but something really has to be done.
  252. # [14:24] * Joins: phsiao (n=shawn@c-71-233-78-251.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  253. # [14:24] <MikeSmith> Philip`: If anybody can cook up a CSS workaround for the IE7 issue, we can put up a modified CSS stylesheet and point the multipage version at that.
  254. # [14:24] <annevk> or we put a link in there to opera.com/download
  255. # [14:24] <Philip`> jgraham: If you don't succeed, you would just be taking even more of everyone's time, so that doesn't sound entirely productive
  256. # [14:24] <MikeSmith> annevk: :)
  257. # [14:25] * Philip` wonders if he should bother going in to work today
  258. # [14:25] <Philip`> since it'll be about 2:30pm by the time I get there
  259. # [14:26] <annevk> Philip`, by that agument you might as well do nothing as you never know whether something will succeed
  260. # [14:26] <jgraham> Philip`: Obviously I wouldn't CC anything other than www-archive so it would only be a waste of my own time
  261. # [14:26] <MikeSmith> Philip`: work at the office til 10:30pm and you've got a full day in there
  262. # [14:26] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-ecd5bc8de3a05bd5)
  263. # [14:28] <Philip`> jgraham: You count as one of "everyone", so that would still be wasting the (collective) everyone's time
  264. # [14:28] <Philip`> and people like me can't resist reading everything on www-archive anyway :-p
  265. # [14:31] <jgraham> Yeah it's only worthwhile if P(success)*(time saved if successful) > (1-P(success))*(time wasted if unsuccessful)
  266. # [14:33] <annevk> It might be that with RB P(success) is always 0 though.
  267. # [14:33] <Philip`> MikeSmith: It would be kind of cold and dark walking back home then, and also I'd starve :-(
  268. # [14:33] <annevk> Personally I sometimes draft responses and then delete them when I realize what I'm doing...
  269. # [14:33] <jgraham> P(success) is certianly close to zero
  270. # [14:34] <jgraham> but the time being wasted is really high
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  273. # [14:44] <annevk> http://www.fightfortheopenweb.com/2008/04/15/why-html5-is-not-enough/
  274. # [14:47] <annevk> (it seems to be a site written by a guy who has taken it on himself to find a way to fight SilverLight/Flash)
  275. # [14:49] <jgraham> So his point is basically that we need WF2 and XBL2?
  276. # [14:50] <Philip`> It's a shame that nothing like WF2 and XBL2 exists - someone should invent them
  277. # [14:51] <Dashiva> jgraham: Looks like he wants joined client and server code as well
  278. # [14:52] * hsivonen disagrees about not assuming CSS and JS
  279. # [14:54] <Dashiva> Assuming JS in general is okay, but there are some sites that abuse it enough that I disable it :)
  280. # [15:02] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-a87564a5c151e8bd)
  281. # [15:09] <hsivonen> hmm. comments on the blog aren't working
  282. # [15:11] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: recent mysql upgrade on the server? or PHP maybe?
  283. # [15:11] <hsivonen> dunno
  284. # [15:11] <hsivonen> I meant on the blog annevk referred to above
  285. # [15:11] <MikeSmith> oh
  286. # [15:12] <annevk> there's http://groups.google.com/group/fight-for-an-open-web if you really want to make your comment reach him I guess
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  290. # [15:29] <BorekB> Hi all, I've got some questions regarding opening links into new tabs. Is this the right place to discuss it or should I post to the mailing list?
  291. # [15:30] <annevk> If you're not sure about your comment you can discuss it here first
  292. # [15:31] <annevk> (Though you can also post it directly to the mailing list, it's really up to you :) )
  293. # [15:31] <BorekB> Thanks, I'll try it here :)
  294. # [15:32] * Joins: tndH_ (i=Rob@adsl-87-102-91-19.karoo.KCOM.COM)
  295. # [15:32] <BorekB> I am aware that there is no way to inform the browser that it should open the link in a new tab. However, I think this would be useful in some situations. I just wanted to know if this is something that is being considered or discussed
  296. # [15:34] <hsivonen> BorekB: tabs vs. windows is considered a matter of browser UI
  297. # [15:34] <annevk> It has been raised and the general consensus is that target=_blank covers that use case
  298. # [15:34] <hsivonen> BorekB: so whether to open new "windows" as tabs is a browser pref
  299. # [15:36] <BorekB> From a user perspective, opening links in a new window or in a new tab is very different. If there is only one way to express this in HTML/JS (target="_blank" or window.open), there is an obvious mismatch. Let me demonstrate on a specific use case..
  300. # [15:38] * Quits: phsiao (n=shawn@c-71-233-78-251.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  301. # [15:39] <zcorpan> 2541 lowsrc
  302. # [15:40] <BorekB> In web applications where you work with many external links, it is quite common to open links that you want to read later to new tabs. Google Reader would be an example of such an application (quickly skimming through the new posts and opening the ones of your interest to new tabs). There is no way to implement it by the GReader team at the moment.
  303. # [15:40] <zcorpan> lowsrc is more common than 2337 xmlns:o
  304. # [15:41] <zcorpan> interesting
  305. # [15:41] <BorekB> (I mean you can always middle-click the link in Firefox but if you use keyboard shortcut 'v', the links are opening in new windows by default which kind of defeats the point of having tabbed browser.)
  306. # [15:41] <zcorpan> oh wait, this was total occurances
  307. # [15:42] <zcorpan> pages: 2223 xmlns:o, 681 lowsrc
  308. # [15:42] <BorekB> The workaround is to go to Firefox settings and force it to open all "_blank" links to the tabs instead of windows.
  309. # [15:42] * Joins: hdh0 (n=hdh@118.71.121.188)
  310. # [15:43] <BorekB> With this setting in place, however, some other sites where the new window would be more appropriate that a new tab (small help window for instance) will be force to use new tabs as well.
  311. # [15:45] <BorekB> I don't like this as a user - the web application should be able to express its intention to either open the link in a new window or in a new tab. (There can still be an option to override this intention on a browser level, this is nothing against it.)
  312. # [15:47] <BorekB> (Sorry for spelling errors, I hope it's clear what my concern is.)
  313. # [15:48] <BorekB> I am obviously not alone - just try googling "_tab"
  314. # [15:48] <BorekB> What do you think?
  315. # [15:49] <annevk> mpt proposed the opposite a while ago: http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2008-April/014564.html
  316. # [15:50] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  317. # [15:50] <BorekB> I see it more like an addition than opposite
  318. # [15:51] <BorekB> Furthermore, target="_tab" would be much easier to implement for browser vendors - all necessary infrastructure (tabs!) is already there
  319. # [15:51] <annevk> Well, with his proposal in place it might be feasible to do target=_blank in a new tab
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  321. # [15:53] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  322. # [15:53] <Philip`> Opera already opens target=_blank in a new tab by default
  323. # [15:53] <annevk> true :)
  324. # [15:54] <annevk> Anyway, I don't really feel strongly about this. I guess I don't feel a compelling need for either
  325. # [15:54] <BorekB> Philip, my concern isn't about what is or what isn't default. It's more about inability to distinguish between the two obviously different behaviours in HTML/JS
  326. # [15:54] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-5e257be04dada339)
  327. # [15:54] <Philip`> Of course it also does "Cycle [tabs] in recently used order" by default, so being default UI doesn't mean it's not a horribly awful choice :-p
  328. # [15:55] <annevk> Philip`, aren't the newer builds better with that by default?
  329. # [15:55] <BorekB> Philip: I agree that Opera got the default settings much better than the other browsers out there
  330. # [15:56] <Philip`> annevk: They still default to "recently used order", which is impossible to use since the whole list gets reshuffled every time I switch tab
  331. # [15:57] <BorekB> OK thanks for initial discussion, I think I will send this to the mailing list so that we can have broader discussion
  332. # [15:57] <Philip`> Opera also does window.open() in a tab, including special not-full-sized window-like tabs that are drawn on top of the background tab, for when you specify width and height
  333. # [15:58] <Philip`> so it doesn't have as much of a distinction between windows and tabs as other browsers do
  334. # [15:58] <BorekB> Now we just need a solution for 98% of browsers out there :)
  335. # [15:58] * Quits: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.124.241) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  336. # [15:59] <Philip`> BorekB: 98% are IE6 and IE7 and FF2 etc, so any new feature is definitely not going to work in them :-)
  337. # [16:00] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  338. # [16:01] <Philip`> The most common browser doesn't even have tabs
  339. # [16:01] * mpt reads backlog and discovers that annevk read his mind
  340. # [16:04] <mpt> With target="_reference" available, browsers could open target="_blank" in a new tab
  341. # [16:06] <mpt> That might take longer than introducing target="_tab"
  342. # [16:06] <BorekB> mpt: exactly
  343. # [16:07] <BorekB> target="_tab" would be very quick fix for most browsers
  344. # [16:07] <mpt> But by the time *either* of those happen, whether something opens in a new window or a new tab might not be under the control of the browser any more.
  345. # [16:08] <mpt> In which case target="_tab" would be a dead distinction, functionally identical to target="_blank".
  346. # [16:08] <BorekB> how do you mean that? not under the control of the browser?
  347. # [16:09] <hsivonen> oh well. I didn't resist replying to elharo.
  348. # [16:09] * hsivonen hopes the subthread doesn't grow long
  349. # [16:09] * Joins: phsiao (n=shawn@nat/ibm/x-fd525683cedf7f7a)
  350. # [16:12] <mpt> BorekB, handled by the window manager or operating environment instead
  351. # [16:13] <mpt> BorekB, an increasing amount of Web browsing is being done on small-screen devices that sometimes have tabs, but if they do, make no distinction between tabs and windows
  352. # [16:13] <BorekB> mpt: Why would OS prevent opening new windows?
  353. # [16:15] <mpt> I don't understand that question
  354. # [16:16] <BorekB> ok i get what you mean. your comment is valid for devices but probably not so appropriate for desktop operating systems
  355. # [16:23] <mpt> Not appropriate right now, certainly.
  356. # [16:23] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
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  359. # [16:50] * Quits: sverrej (n=sverrej@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  360. # [16:50] <Philip`> Hixie: "it should work in seconds" - it's been twelve hours and it still doesn't seem to have updated :-(
  361. # [16:51] <Philip`> (e.g. http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/fragment-links.js is not the version now in http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/multipage/multipage.tar.bz2)
  362. # [16:51] <Philip`> (and I did call the do-pubrules-update thing after updating that file)
  363. # [16:58] <Philip`> MikeSmith: If you want to use the multipage version of the W3C version of the spec, let me know if there's anything that ought to be changed (like if the header bit is missing stuff or has too much stuff, or if the <title>s ought to be distinct between pages, or whatever) since it ought to be fairly quick to fix
  364. # [16:59] <MikeSmith> Philip`: OK, after I have had a chance to look at it more carefully
  365. # [17:01] <Philip`> (The main differences are that the header thing in the source file has changed, and the spec-splitter outputs an HTML4 doctype and <div> instead of <nav> and Overview.html instead of index.html and no link-fixup script and that's all)
  366. # [17:01] <Philip`> (*differences compared to the WHATWG version)
  367. # [17:02] <MikeSmith> OK
  368. # [17:05] <Philip`> (Oh, and the W3C one has index.html instead of section-index.html, because the WHATWG version would have a conflict between index.html and $sectionname.html when $sectionname = 'index' hence it gets renamed to section-index.html)
  369. # [17:05] <Philip`> (But I think that's all :-) )
  370. # [17:09] * Joins: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober)
  371. # [17:21] <zcorpan> hmm. setting innerHTML in XML
  372. # [17:21] <zcorpan> step 2
  373. # [17:23] <zcorpan> does "declaring all the namespace prefixes that are in scope on that element in the DOM" mean xmlns:foo attributes or elements with prefix, or both?
  374. # [17:29] <zcorpan> document.createElementNS('http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml','foo:div').innerHTML = '<foo:img/>';
  375. # [17:30] <zcorpan> time to send email
  376. # [17:31] * Philip` wonders how that div changed into an img
  377. # [17:31] <Dashiva> A wizard did it
  378. # [17:32] <Dashiva> zcorpan: Definitely vague
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  392. # [18:17] <MikeSmith> about the following in the current HTML5 draft:
  393. # [18:17] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#html-namespace
  394. # [18:18] * Parts: BorekB (n=Miranda@ip-89-102-109-205.karneval.cz)
  395. # [18:18] <MikeSmith> do current browsers actually already "place elements in HTML in the http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml namespace, at least for the purposes of the DOM and CSS" ?
  396. # [18:19] * Philip` likes that he can go to http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/#html-namespace and get sent to the right page
  397. # [18:19] <MikeSmith> or is that something that they will need to be changed to do in order to be conformant?
  398. # [18:20] <Philip`> MikeSmith: WebKit does; others don't
  399. # [18:20] <Philip`> (http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cbody%20onload%3Dw(document.body.namespaceURI)%3E )
  400. # [18:21] <myakura> I thought Firefox does too (for CSS)
  401. # [18:23] <Philip`> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cstyle%3E%0A%40namespace%20a%20%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F1999%2Fxhtml%22%3B%0A%40namespace%20b%20%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F1999%2Fxhtml1%22%3B%0Aa%7Cdiv%20%7B%20background%3A%20green%20%7D%0Ab%7Cdiv%20%7B%20background%3A%20red%20%7D%0A%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0A%3Cbody%20onload%3Dw(document.body.namespaceURI)%3E%0A%3Cdiv%3ETest%3C%2Fdiv%3E
  402. # [18:24] <Philip`> myakura: Ah, okay - it looks like Firefox and Opera both do for CSS
  403. # [18:25] <MikeSmith> OK
  404. # [18:26] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host217-44-35-200.range217-44.btcentralplus.com)
  405. # [18:26] <Philip`> (and IE is 'special')
  406. # [18:28] <MikeSmith> yeah, that at least I knew already
  407. # [18:30] * Joins: qwert666 (n=qwert666@dba138.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)
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  412. # [18:38] * Philip` wonders if MikeSmith is having much fun in www-archive
  413. # [18:39] <MikeSmith> Philip`: I think you can guess what the answer to that question is :)
  414. # [18:43] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  416. # [18:45] <smedero> oh cool, people are putting words in my mouth.
  417. # [18:45] <smedero> hooray.
  418. # [18:46] <smedero> apparently I gave an authoritative view on something instead of simply citing what the chairs have said time and time again.
  419. # [18:46] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-f9dae4acf2354322)
  420. # [18:46] <smedero> sigh, this kind of stuff bores the hell out of me.
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  424. # [18:49] <takkaria> Philip`: you have any stats on the <q> tag?
  425. # [18:50] <Philip`> takkaria: Any particular stats?
  426. # [18:50] <Philip`> I see it on 59 pages out of 130K
  427. # [18:50] <takkaria> whether people provide their own quotes inside, outside, or not at all
  428. # [18:53] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.145)
  429. # [18:54] <Philip`> Looks like sometimes inside, sometimes outside, mostly not at all
  430. # [18:54] * Joins: psa2 (n=yomode@71.93.19.66)
  431. # [18:54] * Philip` will upload the stuff once his grep finishes
  432. # [18:55] <takkaria> thanks
  433. # [18:55] <Philip`> (I've no idea how many of these pages define their own styling for <q>)
  434. # [18:57] <Philip`> (<q> is the 125th most common element, barely half as common as the <align="center"> element)
  435. # [18:57] <takkaria> <align="center"> sounds fun
  436. # [18:59] <Philip`> That seems to be used on a wide variety of pages, not just lots of instances of the same site
  437. # [19:00] * Parts: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  438. # [19:03] <Philip`> takkaria: http://philip.html5.org/data/q-tags.txt
  439. # [19:04] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  440. # [19:04] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-f9dae4acf2354322) ("The computer fell asleep")
  441. # [19:04] <Hixie> Philip`: do you get a 500 or anything when calling the do-multipage-update script?
  442. # [19:04] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-6904c132dc9e9c85)
  443. # [19:04] <Philip`> Hixie: do-multipage-update?
  444. # [19:05] <Hixie> isn't that the page i said to use to ping when there's an update?
  445. # [19:05] <Philip`> If that exists, you never told me about it :-p
  446. # [19:05] <Hixie> oh
  447. # [19:05] <Hixie> what uri are you calling
  448. # [19:05] <Philip`> 11:54 < Hixie> can you make it ping http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/do-pubrules-update when it's done?
  449. # [19:05] <Hixie> oops
  450. # [19:06] <Hixie> i gave you the wrong one!
  451. # [19:06] <Hixie> s/pubrules/multipage/
  452. # [19:06] <Hixie> sorry!
  453. # [19:06] <Hixie> pubrules is the one that the other host uses once the spec has been run through the pubrules checker
  454. # [19:06] <Philip`> Aha - I'll try that :-)
  455. # [19:06] <Philip`> Success
  456. # [19:07] <Hixie> woo
  457. # [19:07] <Philip`> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-introduction.html - hurray
  458. # [19:07] <Hixie> cool
  459. # [19:07] <Hixie> sorry about that
  460. # [19:10] * Philip` wonders how you make bash scripts abort when one of the commands failed
  461. # [19:10] <gsnedders> Philip`: With far too many if statements
  462. # [19:10] <gsnedders> (like, one per command)
  463. # [19:11] * Joins: epeus (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-ee19786f1dcba99c)
  464. # [19:11] <Philip`> I don't even know how to do if statements in bash :-p
  465. # [19:11] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-6904c132dc9e9c85) (Connection reset by peer)
  466. # [19:12] <gsnedders> I don't know off the top of my head :P
  467. # [19:12] <gsnedders> And I'm finding a lack of xrefs
  468. # [19:15] <gsnedders> "The x element" has no xref
  469. # [19:16] <gsnedders> Philip`: etree.tostring(Element, encoding=unicode, method='text') includes Element.tail!
  470. # [19:17] <Philip`> e=deepcopy(Element);e.tail='';etree.tostring(e, ...) :-)
  471. # [19:17] <Philip`> That does sound kind of irritating
  472. # [19:18] <gsnedders> It breaks a heckuva lot of cross-refs too :(
  473. # [19:22] * Quits: aroben (n=adamrobe@unaffiliated/aroben)
  474. # [19:22] <gsnedders> Philip`: Just stripping len(Element.tail) chars if Element.tail is probably quicker
  475. # [19:23] <gsnedders> It isn't, actually
  476. # [19:23] <gsnedders> Yes, it is.
  477. # [19:24] <gsnedders> 3x slower
  478. # [19:25] <Philip`> gsnedders: Or use tostring(..., with_tail=False)
  479. # [19:25] <gsnedders> Philip`: Hah!
  480. # [19:26] <Philip`> There's .xpath("string()") too
  481. # [19:27] <gsnedders> Philip`: That's really expensive
  482. # [19:27] <Philip`> Ah
  483. # [19:29] <gsnedders> Philip`: The difference between with_tail and stripping len(Element.tail) is only a few thousandths
  484. # [19:29] <Philip`> But one of those isn't a nasty hack :-)
  485. # [19:30] <gsnedders> Philip`: Exactly :)
  486. # [19:30] <gsnedders> (This is a few thousandths on the entire HTML 5 spec)
  487. # [19:31] <Philip`> (A few thousandths of what?)
  488. # [19:31] <gsnedders> A second.
  489. # [19:31] <Philip`> Ah
  490. # [19:32] <gsnedders> And the random uncertainty seems to be around ±2ms
  491. # [19:32] <gsnedders> which makes a difference of around 5ms between the means even less meaningful
  492. # [19:33] * Joins: aroben (n=adamrobe@76.111.160.14)
  493. # [19:33] * gsnedders stares at the WHATWG version of the HTML 5 spec
  494. # [19:33] <gsnedders> yay! more undefined behaviour in the real spec-gen!
  495. # [19:35] <gsnedders> "Cross-references are made by marking the defining instance of a term with <dfn>."
  496. # [19:35] <gsnedders> Not <hx>.
  497. # [19:37] * tndH_ is now known as tndH
  498. # [19:38] <gsnedders> No, it is only <dfn>. Some other bug.
  499. # [19:41] * Quits: aroben (n=adamrobe@unaffiliated/aroben)
  500. # [19:45] * Joins: aroben (n=adamrobe@76.111.160.14)
  501. # [19:46] <gsnedders> Oh, it's because textContent() keeps the whitespace
  502. # [20:01] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.145)
  503. # [20:02] <Hixie> MikeSmith: yt?
  504. # [20:05] <jgraham> Philip`: Can't you use && to exit if a command fails in bash?
  505. # [20:05] * jgraham knows very little bash scripting
  506. # [20:06] <Philip`> jgraham: I'm not confident in how that interacts with things like output redirection, and also I'd prefer not to make my entire script be a single line :-)
  507. # [20:07] <MikeSmith> Hixie: here now
  508. # [20:07] <Philip`> Currently I'm sticking with the approach that probably nothing is going to fail too badly or too frequently so there's no need for detecting errors
  509. # [20:07] <jgraham> Hmm. I'm not sure why it would require the whole script to be a single line
  510. # [20:07] <jgraham> biab
  511. # [20:07] * Quits: jgraham (n=jgraham@xpc9.ast.cam.ac.uk) ("leaving")
  512. # [20:10] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-ac73a658aabc4781)
  513. # [20:19] <Hixie> sweet
  514. # [20:19] <Hixie> rob told mike that he was out of line
  515. # [20:19] <Hixie> that's hilarious
  516. # [20:20] <Hixie> it's sad that the chairs are making you do the leg work here
  517. # [20:20] <Hixie> if this was going on in a community i had authority over he'd have been banned for a week already
  518. # [20:22] * epeus is now known as KevinMarks
  519. # [20:25] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-71-204-153-3.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  520. # [20:26] * Quits: aroben (n=adamrobe@unaffiliated/aroben)
  521. # [20:31] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Remote closed the connection)
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  524. # [20:36] <Hixie> The aria-* syntax creates a multitude of attributes. It is as if one decided to go for style-font="*" instead of style="font:*".
  525. # [20:36] * Hixie wonders if anyone told this guy about SVG
  526. # [20:40] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-170-172.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  527. # [20:47] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-ad157fd4a518d405)
  528. # [21:00] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-39-55.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  529. # [21:04] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-ac73a658aabc4781)
  530. # [21:13] <Dashiva> Hixie: I wonder if he would be any happier with aria="a:b;c:d;" :)
  531. # [21:18] <Hixie> lord
  532. # [21:20] <deltab> Philip`: run the shell with -e, use use set -e in a script
  533. # [21:20] <deltab> ^or use
  534. # [21:21] <deltab> and use foo || true; if you need to ignore the result of foo
  535. # [21:25] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@guest-226.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  536. # [21:26] * Quits: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.121.188) (Remote closed the connection)
  537. # [21:32] * gsnedders guesses he should make his xref have whitespace normalisation
  538. # [22:05] <annevk> yup
  539. # [22:06] <annevk> it's typical for <dfn> to contain a newline and several consecutive spaces
  540. # [22:10] <gsnedders> Anyone feeling like being useful, so I can do my homework?
  541. # [22:11] <gsnedders> Make http://hg.gsnedders.com/spec-gen/file/0b4dc9d2fc3e/runtests.py run the tests/basic
  542. # [22:12] * Joins: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  543. # [22:18] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-170-172.dsl.telstraclear.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  547. # [22:59] * Quits: Philip` (n=philip@zaynar.demon.co.uk) (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable))
  548. # [23:11] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  549. # [23:19] * Joins: Philip` (n=philip@zaynar.demon.co.uk)
  550. # [23:23] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  551. # [23:55] * Quits: qwert666 (n=qwert666@dba138.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) ("Leaving")
  552. # Session Close: Thu Jun 05 00:00:00 2008

The end :)